Sadly enough, it's all true.
- Thread starter Delphi
- Start date
- Replies 22
- Views 5K
British Wholesales - Certified Wholesale Linen & Towels | Halal Food Gastronomy | vBulletin 4 php 8.0 patch
- Status
No, we (muslims) are not given mandate to convert the whole world. In fact Allah says the opposite. There is no compulsion in religion..
So, quite a lot of things happens not because of islam, but over zealousness of people and 'planted' extremists activities.
eace:eesa the kiwi
IB Expert
- Messages
- 3,945
- Reaction score
- 147
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
so many misconceptions i dont know where to begin
if this is your understanding of islam then no offense but you are woefully ignorant
if you really want to learn a bit about islam, true islam not rehashed stereotypes that make me wonder if you have even met a muslim or read the quran to be passing such a judgement
www.islamreligion.com has some good articles
dont judge islam by what muslims do, judge muslims by islam
peace be upon those who accept guidance
if this is your understanding of islam then no offense but you are woefully ignorant
if you really want to learn a bit about islam, true islam not rehashed stereotypes that make me wonder if you have even met a muslim or read the quran to be passing such a judgement
www.islamreligion.com has some good articles
dont judge islam by what muslims do, judge muslims by islam
peace be upon those who accept guidance
:bism: (In the Name of God, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful)
Hi, sister. Sometimes, it's best if we reflect on our words; I'm doing that for you here by using your own words to point a mirror and give you a compass to find where you would like to fit within the wider picture and broader spectrum of thought; hear my words with an open mind, because I need you to free yourself from the shackles of obfuscation and pain. Thanks for your time and consideration. Here, I begin:
Sadly enough, it's not all true. If you believe that Islam is a toxic, fanatic, out of date patriarchy from the 7th century, this is what you end up with, in one form or another, a type of prejudice even if reluctantly adopted because you don't understand.
I'm also a leftist. A liberal. A cultural relativist. I don't turn to Hillary Clinton naturally, and that is because I'm not a fan (once was but no longer). But, to be quite honest, my feminist instincts know what a toxic and racist threat demagoguery presents, and I hate to say it, Delphi, but Donald Trump embodies that today, and therefore it is no surprise that among the people we know to be counted on to support him number also Neo-Nazi groups. Islam, as practiced by majority Muslim countries today, is heavily influenced with culture and not Islam; ask any Muslim and you'll get this same answer. I am a moderate, and I say a lot; I'm surprised you haven't heard my voice on IB but maybe that's because your posts number to all of 23, hardly enough to interact with Muslims or learn Islam from the proper sources. I'm, however, not surprised that you say you haven't heard from moderates because the media coverage simply isn't there to "cover" the voice of the moderates as that doesn't sell newspapers and magazines, increase television ratings, or make popular writing on the Internet.
As to the Sweden rape crisis, I refer you to Doug Sanders's piece called "Sweden's rape crisis isn't what it seems." He wrote, and I quote:
"Sweden, the story goes, used to be very peaceful, very safe, very blond. Then it started letting in darker-skinned people. Soon there were news reports of attacks on Swedes. Now, Sweden records the highest incidence of rape in the world.
"The Sweden story has become absolutely viral. You’ve probably read a version in a Facebook post, or heard it in a speech or debate. It is the argument-ender of the intolerant: To make the case against refugees, or immigration, or “Islam,” you recount a couple of stories about refugee-camp horrors, some random anecdotes of sex crimes involving brown people in various countries, and then drop the Sweden story.
"Behind it you’ll find the resurrection of an old, deadly appeal to fear – that people of certain skin colours are natural-born predators who threaten white women. It’s a version of lynch-mob logic that happens to appeal to the liberal and tolerant as much as the hateful and intolerant.
"And it falls apart as soon as you speak to anyone knowledgeable in Sweden.
"'What we’re hearing is a very, very extreme exaggeration based on a few isolated events, and the claim that it’s related to immigration is more or less not true at all,' says Jerzy Sarnecki, a criminologist at Stockholm University who has devoted his career to the study of criminality, ethnicity and age.
"Sweden does indeed have far more reported cases of sexual assault than any other country. But it’s not because Swedes – of any colour – are very criminal. It’s because they’re very feminist. In 2005, Sweden’s Social Democratic government introduced a new sex-crime law with the world’s most expansive definition of rape.
"Imagine, for example, if your boss rubbed against you in an unwanted way at work once a week for a year. In Canada, this would potentially be a case of sexual assault. Under Germany’s more limited laws, it would be zero cases. In Sweden, it would be tallied as 52 separate cases of rape. If you engaged in a half-dozen sex acts with your spouse, then later you felt you had not given consent, in Sweden that would be classified as six cases of rape. The marked increase in rape cases during the 2000s is almost entirely a reflection of Sweden’s deep public interest in sexual equality and the rights of women, not of attacks by newcomers."
What does that tell you? It tells me the following: "The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively, not by the false appearance things present and which mislead into error, not directly by weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by prejudice."
Surprise, surprise, such a simple thing to explain away prejudice because we as human beings like to believe that we're above prejudice if we claim adherence to liberal Western values. We're not. Yes, you're probably disillusioned. I sympathize. Yes, you're probably angry. I sympathize. And I do agree that you have read too much of the wrong news from Europe, routinely. I sympathize. Unfortunately, I disagree with you that this isn't an isolated thing. This is a few bad apples. Quite frankly, whatever coat of paint you shove on it, prejudice is just that. It's bad evil bullshit that causes nothing but troubled understanding of Islam and stereotype and scapegoating of Muslims.
And so, we come to Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him). So, let's remember the words of Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "The entire humanity is Allah’s family, and Allah loves him most from among this family, who benefits the family most."
Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said,“The best from among you is the one from whom you expect the good and people are safe from his mischief. And the worst from among you is the one from whom you don’t expect any good and people are not safe from his mischief.”
Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) also said, “He who is not merciful to people Allah will not be merciful to him.”
People will fight Muslims on the beaches, people will fight Muslims in the hills and on the landing grounds. I didn't want to have to reach this conclusion. I think there is still Time. I look at what's going on in France, turn it over in my head. It really wouldn't matter WHAT people wore, if only one thing was true about radical secularism. If only radical secularism did not seek to infringe upon religious right and existed only to protect minorities. It's all good to have a Western country hinge on secularist beliefs, but when you start being convinced that that country has a godless mandate to dictate to Muslims and the entire world, only bad things ever happen just as it did with the Inquisition thousands of years ago except in the opposite spectrum. Daesh (ISIS) was born from a host of factors that included the "the raw cruelty of Hussein’s Baathist regime, the disbandment of the Iraqi army after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, the subsequent insurgency and the marginalization of Sunni Iraqis by the Shiite-dominated government all are intertwined [...]," said Hassan Hassan, a Dubai-based analyst and co-author of the book ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror. But mostly you won't hear about the multifaceted nature of the problem that is Daesh because it's identified as an Islamic phenomena without asking Muslims or bothering to investigate whether the Muslim world perceives Daesh as "Islamic."
Exactly. This isn't the 7th century, and when the West fights, the West uses drones that kill civilians, such as the fact that the War on Terror has so far killed 4 million people because we're a generation of people that like to bomb away our problems. Is that justice for 9/11 in which 2,996 people died. I don't know. You tell me. Do us all a favor - help us reign in all barbarians, even the so-called "civilized" ones given all benefit of doubt in our midst because the West can do no wrong (since Muslims are alleged to be able to do no right), before a conflict starts that none of us wants.
Exactly. Everyone's responsible for their own behavior. I personally think that the ultimate punishment for injustice is to be perfectly meted out in the hereafter, and in the meantime, civilized barbarians can make speeches about how they care about us while giving us the middle finger when we object to an endless undeclared war with no end in sight.
The real problem is "otherizing" Muslims and not understanding that we're your biggest allies in this fight against extremists and terrorist organizations like Daesh. If you lose us, you'll have lost, because you'll use weapons to kill specific people at specific times but you cannot use weapons to kill ideas that are far bigger than all the biggest, baddest weapons and technology; only we can help you do that. Only Islam, the one practiced by a majority of Muslims, can drive away and drive out bad ideas of bad apples.
As a Muslim, I always saw it this way. Idiots are continuing to binge on sleeping pills of ignorance, deliberately imagining an orgy of some sort, that Muslim men are plotting to abduct some white girl, like we're living in the medieval era, away to his far off village, and convert her by having sex with her by force. You know, bring her round to God, fight, raid, back up the tribe, fight, raid some more. All good things, for people who like to sleep and stereotype and pretend that the problem is Muslims and any "Muslim problem" is only one-sided. Of course, when I wake up, I think about the fact that no one is speaking up for me, that my rights as a woman is being called into question and my American-ness as well because I happen to believe differently and therefore am considered a wrinkle on a fabric that needs to be ironed away. Yet there's a special belief in some ideological high ground that the West has, even though the West expects and wants me to blend silently into the background as a Muslim woman and take it all laying down, perhaps even to have an orgasm at the thought that Westerners will now police my dress code. I'm just saying. A majority of Muslims are moderates and not cave-bound people, and trust me, this is a fight no one wants. Trust me though, the people who you should be looking to hold to account is not us, because we've already managed to piss off 3/4s of the planet that isn't Muslim simply by existing and breathing, most of whom have a lot less conscience than your average white Westerner and therefore we have persecution of Muslims in Mynamar and the Chinese persecution of Uyghur Muslims.
Just recently, in India, two Muslim women were gang raped by Hindus and two of her relatives were beaten and murdered because one of them was alleged to have eaten meat of cows though the woman denied that she or her family had. I mean I could go on and on, and on and on. All real news stories, from women pushing strollers being attacked in U.S. to a Muslim man beaten and attacked in Florida mosque in U.S. Not to mention in the Nice Attack in France, nearly 1/3 of the people who died were Muslims, and the persons in the Turkish airport attack were all Muslims, and about 60 of the people who died in 9/11 were Muslims. I mean I could go on, and on, and on, and on, and on. But no, I won't. Because we, the normal everyday "moderate" Muslims, are the new "invisible" (actually, maybe the truth is that you don't want to know or believe we exist because then you can continue to have the high moral ground) and easily scapegoated by you in your broadbrush of Islam, a person who's just pretended to me that you're entirely free of prejudice and the enemy is Islam and not the bad apples and always me (because I believe in Islam) and never you (because you don't believe in Islam). It's just stupid.
There's a couplet I leave with you for further reflection:
"Spent my life repeating the one mistake,
Dust was on my face and I kept wiping the mirror."
Hi, sister. Sometimes, it's best if we reflect on our words; I'm doing that for you here by using your own words to point a mirror and give you a compass to find where you would like to fit within the wider picture and broader spectrum of thought; hear my words with an open mind, because I need you to free yourself from the shackles of obfuscation and pain. Thanks for your time and consideration. Here, I begin:
Sadly enough, it's not all true. If you believe that Islam is a toxic, fanatic, out of date patriarchy from the 7th century, this is what you end up with, in one form or another, a type of prejudice even if reluctantly adopted because you don't understand.
I'm also a leftist. A liberal. A cultural relativist. I don't turn to Hillary Clinton naturally, and that is because I'm not a fan (once was but no longer). But, to be quite honest, my feminist instincts know what a toxic and racist threat demagoguery presents, and I hate to say it, Delphi, but Donald Trump embodies that today, and therefore it is no surprise that among the people we know to be counted on to support him number also Neo-Nazi groups. Islam, as practiced by majority Muslim countries today, is heavily influenced with culture and not Islam; ask any Muslim and you'll get this same answer. I am a moderate, and I say a lot; I'm surprised you haven't heard my voice on IB but maybe that's because your posts number to all of 23, hardly enough to interact with Muslims or learn Islam from the proper sources. I'm, however, not surprised that you say you haven't heard from moderates because the media coverage simply isn't there to "cover" the voice of the moderates as that doesn't sell newspapers and magazines, increase television ratings, or make popular writing on the Internet.
As to the Sweden rape crisis, I refer you to Doug Sanders's piece called "Sweden's rape crisis isn't what it seems." He wrote, and I quote:
"Sweden, the story goes, used to be very peaceful, very safe, very blond. Then it started letting in darker-skinned people. Soon there were news reports of attacks on Swedes. Now, Sweden records the highest incidence of rape in the world.
"The Sweden story has become absolutely viral. You’ve probably read a version in a Facebook post, or heard it in a speech or debate. It is the argument-ender of the intolerant: To make the case against refugees, or immigration, or “Islam,” you recount a couple of stories about refugee-camp horrors, some random anecdotes of sex crimes involving brown people in various countries, and then drop the Sweden story.
"Behind it you’ll find the resurrection of an old, deadly appeal to fear – that people of certain skin colours are natural-born predators who threaten white women. It’s a version of lynch-mob logic that happens to appeal to the liberal and tolerant as much as the hateful and intolerant.
"And it falls apart as soon as you speak to anyone knowledgeable in Sweden.
"'What we’re hearing is a very, very extreme exaggeration based on a few isolated events, and the claim that it’s related to immigration is more or less not true at all,' says Jerzy Sarnecki, a criminologist at Stockholm University who has devoted his career to the study of criminality, ethnicity and age.
"Sweden does indeed have far more reported cases of sexual assault than any other country. But it’s not because Swedes – of any colour – are very criminal. It’s because they’re very feminist. In 2005, Sweden’s Social Democratic government introduced a new sex-crime law with the world’s most expansive definition of rape.
"Imagine, for example, if your boss rubbed against you in an unwanted way at work once a week for a year. In Canada, this would potentially be a case of sexual assault. Under Germany’s more limited laws, it would be zero cases. In Sweden, it would be tallied as 52 separate cases of rape. If you engaged in a half-dozen sex acts with your spouse, then later you felt you had not given consent, in Sweden that would be classified as six cases of rape. The marked increase in rape cases during the 2000s is almost entirely a reflection of Sweden’s deep public interest in sexual equality and the rights of women, not of attacks by newcomers."
What does that tell you? It tells me the following: "The discovery of truth is prevented more effectively, not by the false appearance things present and which mislead into error, not directly by weakness of the reasoning powers, but by preconceived opinion, by prejudice."
Surprise, surprise, such a simple thing to explain away prejudice because we as human beings like to believe that we're above prejudice if we claim adherence to liberal Western values. We're not. Yes, you're probably disillusioned. I sympathize. Yes, you're probably angry. I sympathize. And I do agree that you have read too much of the wrong news from Europe, routinely. I sympathize. Unfortunately, I disagree with you that this isn't an isolated thing. This is a few bad apples. Quite frankly, whatever coat of paint you shove on it, prejudice is just that. It's bad evil bullshit that causes nothing but troubled understanding of Islam and stereotype and scapegoating of Muslims.
And so, we come to Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him). So, let's remember the words of Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said, "The entire humanity is Allah’s family, and Allah loves him most from among this family, who benefits the family most."
Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) said,“The best from among you is the one from whom you expect the good and people are safe from his mischief. And the worst from among you is the one from whom you don’t expect any good and people are not safe from his mischief.”
Prophet Muhammad :saws: (peace and blessings be upon him) also said, “He who is not merciful to people Allah will not be merciful to him.”
People will fight Muslims on the beaches, people will fight Muslims in the hills and on the landing grounds. I didn't want to have to reach this conclusion. I think there is still Time. I look at what's going on in France, turn it over in my head. It really wouldn't matter WHAT people wore, if only one thing was true about radical secularism. If only radical secularism did not seek to infringe upon religious right and existed only to protect minorities. It's all good to have a Western country hinge on secularist beliefs, but when you start being convinced that that country has a godless mandate to dictate to Muslims and the entire world, only bad things ever happen just as it did with the Inquisition thousands of years ago except in the opposite spectrum. Daesh (ISIS) was born from a host of factors that included the "the raw cruelty of Hussein’s Baathist regime, the disbandment of the Iraqi army after the U.S.-led invasion in 2003, the subsequent insurgency and the marginalization of Sunni Iraqis by the Shiite-dominated government all are intertwined [...]," said Hassan Hassan, a Dubai-based analyst and co-author of the book ISIS: Inside the Army of Terror. But mostly you won't hear about the multifaceted nature of the problem that is Daesh because it's identified as an Islamic phenomena without asking Muslims or bothering to investigate whether the Muslim world perceives Daesh as "Islamic."
Exactly. This isn't the 7th century, and when the West fights, the West uses drones that kill civilians, such as the fact that the War on Terror has so far killed 4 million people because we're a generation of people that like to bomb away our problems. Is that justice for 9/11 in which 2,996 people died. I don't know. You tell me. Do us all a favor - help us reign in all barbarians, even the so-called "civilized" ones given all benefit of doubt in our midst because the West can do no wrong (since Muslims are alleged to be able to do no right), before a conflict starts that none of us wants.
Exactly. Everyone's responsible for their own behavior. I personally think that the ultimate punishment for injustice is to be perfectly meted out in the hereafter, and in the meantime, civilized barbarians can make speeches about how they care about us while giving us the middle finger when we object to an endless undeclared war with no end in sight.
The real problem is "otherizing" Muslims and not understanding that we're your biggest allies in this fight against extremists and terrorist organizations like Daesh. If you lose us, you'll have lost, because you'll use weapons to kill specific people at specific times but you cannot use weapons to kill ideas that are far bigger than all the biggest, baddest weapons and technology; only we can help you do that. Only Islam, the one practiced by a majority of Muslims, can drive away and drive out bad ideas of bad apples.
As a Muslim, I always saw it this way. Idiots are continuing to binge on sleeping pills of ignorance, deliberately imagining an orgy of some sort, that Muslim men are plotting to abduct some white girl, like we're living in the medieval era, away to his far off village, and convert her by having sex with her by force. You know, bring her round to God, fight, raid, back up the tribe, fight, raid some more. All good things, for people who like to sleep and stereotype and pretend that the problem is Muslims and any "Muslim problem" is only one-sided. Of course, when I wake up, I think about the fact that no one is speaking up for me, that my rights as a woman is being called into question and my American-ness as well because I happen to believe differently and therefore am considered a wrinkle on a fabric that needs to be ironed away. Yet there's a special belief in some ideological high ground that the West has, even though the West expects and wants me to blend silently into the background as a Muslim woman and take it all laying down, perhaps even to have an orgasm at the thought that Westerners will now police my dress code. I'm just saying. A majority of Muslims are moderates and not cave-bound people, and trust me, this is a fight no one wants. Trust me though, the people who you should be looking to hold to account is not us, because we've already managed to piss off 3/4s of the planet that isn't Muslim simply by existing and breathing, most of whom have a lot less conscience than your average white Westerner and therefore we have persecution of Muslims in Mynamar and the Chinese persecution of Uyghur Muslims.
Just recently, in India, two Muslim women were gang raped by Hindus and two of her relatives were beaten and murdered because one of them was alleged to have eaten meat of cows though the woman denied that she or her family had. I mean I could go on and on, and on and on. All real news stories, from women pushing strollers being attacked in U.S. to a Muslim man beaten and attacked in Florida mosque in U.S. Not to mention in the Nice Attack in France, nearly 1/3 of the people who died were Muslims, and the persons in the Turkish airport attack were all Muslims, and about 60 of the people who died in 9/11 were Muslims. I mean I could go on, and on, and on, and on, and on. But no, I won't. Because we, the normal everyday "moderate" Muslims, are the new "invisible" (actually, maybe the truth is that you don't want to know or believe we exist because then you can continue to have the high moral ground) and easily scapegoated by you in your broadbrush of Islam, a person who's just pretended to me that you're entirely free of prejudice and the enemy is Islam and not the bad apples and always me (because I believe in Islam) and never you (because you don't believe in Islam). It's just stupid.
There's a couplet I leave with you for further reflection:
"Spent my life repeating the one mistake,
Dust was on my face and I kept wiping the mirror."
Last edited:
Serinity
IB Expert
- Messages
- 2,854
- Reaction score
- 201
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
There are 2 extremes.
Those who are completely hostile and are only good towards Muslims - wants to eradicate everyone who is not Muslim - as we see on TV.
The second is the one who doesn't dinstinct/disassociate himself from the disbelievers, and do not forbid evil or and enjoin good.
But know that Islam is the middle-path. The path that teaches balanace, and stresses to not transgress nor be aggressive. It is a religion that empathizes balance/moderation, and condemns both extremes.
It is a religion that is stern and harsh against injustices / what will harm mankind. Not out of hatred or malice, but out of concern. I learnt something:
"tread this world like it was a ship - if someone does wrong - forbid it / disallow it, WITHOUT it causing more harm to the "ship" to the Hereafter"
Those who are completely hostile and are only good towards Muslims - wants to eradicate everyone who is not Muslim - as we see on TV.
The second is the one who doesn't dinstinct/disassociate himself from the disbelievers, and do not forbid evil or and enjoin good.
But know that Islam is the middle-path. The path that teaches balanace, and stresses to not transgress nor be aggressive. It is a religion that empathizes balance/moderation, and condemns both extremes.
It is a religion that is stern and harsh against injustices / what will harm mankind. Not out of hatred or malice, but out of concern. I learnt something:
"tread this world like it was a ship - if someone does wrong - forbid it / disallow it, WITHOUT it causing more harm to the "ship" to the Hereafter"
aaj
Account Disabled
- Messages
- 693
- Reaction score
- 41
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
Feminism is an unnatural, artificial and abnormal product of contemporary social disintegration, which in turn is the inevitable result of the rejection of all trans*cendental, absolute moral and spiritual values. The student of anthropology and history can be certain of the abnormality of the Feminist movement because all human cultures that we know of throughout prehistorically and historic times make a definite clear-cut distinction between “masculinity” and “femininity” and pattern the social roles of men and women accordingly. The disintegration of the home and family, the loss of the authoritarian role of the father and sexual promiscuity have been directly responsible for the decline and fall of every nation which these evils become prevalent.
http://www.islam101.com/women/jameelah.htm
http://www.islam101.com/women/jameelah.htm
This is a lot of food for thought, and I'd like to write a detailed response back. You have my thanks and respect for indulging me, and my differing opinion. I'd like to think this out and write something intelligent.
Futuwwa
IB Expert
- Messages
- 1,247
- Reaction score
- 113
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
So I'm supposed to "reign in the barbarian cavemen" because if I don't, I will end up on the receiving end of the destructive power of Western civilization?
Your request is denied. I don't submit to coercion by threat of violence. Also, I consider the notion of collective responsibility, and its correlary of collective guilt, to be highly immoral. Toodles.
-Futuwwa the Patriarch
Your request is denied. I don't submit to coercion by threat of violence. Also, I consider the notion of collective responsibility, and its correlary of collective guilt, to be highly immoral. Toodles.
-Futuwwa the Patriarch
You brag about your grandfathers part in helping invent these weapons of mass destruction yet, we're the evil ones?
Don't even get me started on rapes that go on here in the states, because like you, I can go on, and on, and on... But typing a response to you that would take up more than two minutes of my time would be, well, stupid..
Don't worry about Islam.. It won't lose. The message has been around since the beginning, and it will be around until the end.
Don't even get me started on rapes that go on here in the states, because like you, I can go on, and on, and on... But typing a response to you that would take up more than two minutes of my time would be, well, stupid..
Don't worry about Islam.. It won't lose. The message has been around since the beginning, and it will be around until the end.
cooterhein
Account Disabled
- Messages
- 378
- Reaction score
- 11
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
Oh, that's funny. I was under the impression that "fight them until they submit" was an acceptable strategy.
Huh.
Well, just as long as we send a message in advance telling you what you did to offend us, and give you an opportunity to repent before we attack you....then we're all good, right?
kritikvernunft
IB Veteran
- Messages
- 590
- Reaction score
- 29
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Other
But who was supposed to do all of the fighting on the beaches? Wasn't that the "violent patriarchy" of men fighting on the beaches? So, you want the men to fight against the toxic idea of the men fighting and imposing their will?
You will have to make up your mind. Either you want the men to fight and then you stop calling men a "violent patriarchy" or else you do not want them to fight, and then I wonder who will be standing there on your beaches? Women?
Your female instincts perfectly-well know that men will not do any of the fighting that you have in mind. You want the men to risk their lives and die to defend feminist views. When is that ever going to happen? A feminist society is essentially defenseless. Game over. ;-)
Futuwwa
IB Expert
- Messages
- 1,247
- Reaction score
- 113
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
kritikvernunft
IB Veteran
- Messages
- 590
- Reaction score
- 29
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Other
It's even worse than that. It is contradictory! She is counting on the evil, violent patriarchy to fight on the beaches in order to abolish the violent patriarchy and prevent the very same violent patriarchy from fighting on the beaches. I think that I should go to that beach and have a look at what is going on over there! ;-)
You and the OP can follow in the footsteps of your forefathers and simply pillage the land and perform mass rape across it, sparing no one. Actually, you guys still do that to this day. Sure, you can put on the show of 'sending a warning' to appease the sheep but, the outcome will always be the same regardless. Now, you guys pay these boogeyman groups to do all your bidding so when you're satisfied with the results, you simply off them and appear as the heroes.
cooterhein
Account Disabled
- Messages
- 378
- Reaction score
- 11
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
The Great Satan, of course. And I was making reference to the Mohammedan policy of fighting enemies until they submit....even if the only reason for attacking them is their wrong beliefs.
cooterhein
Account Disabled
- Messages
- 378
- Reaction score
- 11
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
You support the Quran, yes?
Futuwwa
IB Expert
- Messages
- 1,247
- Reaction score
- 113
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Islam
I don't "support" the Quran, I follow it.
I can see where this is going. I give you three posts to convince me you're willing to discuss in good faith.
cooterhein
Account Disabled
- Messages
- 378
- Reaction score
- 11
- Gender
- Male
- Religion
- Christianity
I'm not entirely certain if "good faith" means what you think it means.
Good faith refers first and foremost to honesty, and to a sincere desire to deal fairly with others. It does not mean I must pretend to agree with you on matters which I obviously don't, due to the fact that we belong to different religions and we have totally different lines of reasoning that lead us to very different conclusions as to what the truth is.
I'll give you two examples. You've got the perfection of the Quran, and you've got the example of Mohammed throughout his life. Is he really a prophet who lived the best life that should be most imitated, and is this really a holy book from God that is perfect and could not possibly be improved upon? More importantly, to your mind, is it possible for me to honestly reach a different conclusion than you and talk about it in good faith?
I'll act for just a moment on the assumption that I can at least test the waters. You are giving me three posts, after all. So I'll try this.
Consider for a moment the main reasons for why you reject the Bible. Well, perhaps not reject it outright or call it a fiction, but you have criticisms of it, you don't believe Christians should view it as infallible or without error, and your reasons have to do with copying errors, strong potential for deliberate malfeasance, and perhaps also the sheer length of time between the actual events of the New Testament and the oldest surviving copies that we have, which are definitely not the originals. What sort of time frame are we looking at? Final date of writing, 40-60 years after the death and resurrection of Jesus. and then a fairly universal compilation would be....Something like 200 years in addition to that? Then Nicea makes some things a lot more official in 325. Anyway, what I want to ask you to do is see what happens when the same sort of examination is applied to the hadiths. I'm not even getting into the Quran, let's just look at the hadiths, find out how much time passed between the death of Mohammed and the earliest physical writing or surviving copy of any sort of hadith. Find out how long that took and how the transmission process compares with that of the Christian Bible.
If you can do that for me, I'd like to know why the hadiths are deserving of all your trust and belief in the accuracy of its transmission (which mostly concerns the life of Mohammed, this is fairly important after all) while you have practically no trust in the Bible by comparison. I would really like to know what it is about the eventual compilation of the hadiths that preserves them from the same sort of criticism that leads to your standard conclusions as to the accuracy and trustworthiness of the Bible. Also, which hadiths are we looking at exactly, and to what extent is there some variety among Muslims in terms of the scope and use of them? In your estimation, do the Quranists have any leg to stand on thanks to this sort of analysis? But most of all, what is it about their transmission process that makes them so much more trustworthy than the Bible?
And now to the heat of the meat- does that seem like a question being asked in good faith? That's really the main thing that's being tested here.
- Status