[Mikayeel]

Salam wa alekum!

This question has always bothered me, since atheist lack the believe of a creator how can you explain the fact about the sperm cell? The way a sperm cell in created(you believe it was made through a sequence of random events) because never in the history of man kind has a sperm cell gone into the women to see the obstacle's it going to face, and then come back to the male body and tell the other sperm cells how they should adapt them self!(for the journey they are going to face), this has not happened, and yet we see the sperm cell completely geared up for this hard task!, from tail, to the enzymes, to the carbohydrated based ''engine'', science says its life greatest miracle!,(i am not insulting no body, am i just beg to ask this question this it has bothered me a while ). So how do you atheists believe this all happened? (particularly the sperm cell). thanks alot for reading so far! peace

 

[glo]

Now I am not terribly good at explaining evolution, or genetics for that matter. I am sure others can do a better job, and join in.

From an evolutionary point of view, a sperm would have evolved to its present 'perfect state' (if you want to call it that) over tens of thousands of years:
With each fertilisation, the sperm best equipped to overcome those obstacles you mention, is most likely to be the one who 'wins the race' and manages to fertilise the egg ... thereby passing its genes on to the next generation.
So, from generation to generation to sperm becomes better equipped.

I am sure it is more complex than that, but that's how I understand evolution theory ...

Now if you want to know how multiplication through sex between two genders came about in the first place (in evolutionary terms), I am really out of my depth and can't help you ... :?

 

[Mikayeel]

oke, i am not saying that evolution did not happen!, let say it did!, then i still beg to ask, never ever, has a sperm cell gone back from the women to the man, to tell the other sperm cells how to evolve!, therefor here the whole evolution theory collapses!(in this case), because u r building stones in the air, not on solid ground.

 

[glo]

Now I am not terribly good at explaining evolution, or genetics for that matter.

Seems I was right ...

oke, i am not saying that evolution did not happen!, let say it did!, then i still beg to ask, never ever, has a sperm cell gone back from the women to the man, to tell the other sperm cells how to evolve!, therefor here the whole evolution theory collapses!(in this case), because u r building stones in the air, not on solid ground.

That's the whole point of evolution theory - it is a natural process, and nobody needs to 'go back to tell the others how to evolve'.
The sperm cells which aren't up to the job lose the race. They die, disappear and are never spoken off again. Consequently the genetic material they carry (which also carries the genetic make-up for the sperm of the new generation) dies and disappears too.
The next generation is likely to carry the more successful genes. Do that over thousands of generations, and differences begin to emerge ...

Put it this way, imagine (this is just a pretended scenario), that in the long distant past sperms were circular and had no tail - thereby making the whole process of getting to the egg a lot more difficult.
Now, imagine by chance (through some genetic change) one sperm cell turns out slightly elongated. Because of its changed appearance it is better suited for the job and manages to fertilise the egg - thereby passing on its changed genetic material to the next generation, and consequently to the next generation's sperm cells (I am a bit hazy about how exactly the genetic material is passed onto the sex cells, so please forgive me there. I am still waiting for a real evolutionist to come forward and put me right! )

According to this process of selection of the most successful design, over the course of generations the sperms cells change their appearance to the one most suited for their purpose.

Am I making any sense at all??? :?

Peace

 

[Trumble]

oke, i am not saying that evolution did not happen!, let say it did!, then i still beg to ask, never ever, has a sperm cell gone back from the women to the man, to tell the other sperm cells how to evolve!, therefor here the whole evolution theory collapses!(in this case), because u r building stones in the air, not on solid ground.

You seem to have ignored glo's reply. It is the sperm cells best adapted that ended up joining with the eggs, hence their genes and characteristics that are perpetuated in subsequent generations. There is no need to "tell the other sperm cells how to evolve" in the way you suggest... indeed they have no way of evolving, as the 'failures' do not reproduce.

 

[wilberhum]

Salam wa alekum!

This question has always bothered me, since atheist lack the believe of a creator how can you explain the fact about the sperm cell? The way a sperm cell in created(you believe it was made through a sequence of random events) because never in the history of man kind has a sperm cell gone into the women to see the obstacle's it going to face, and then come back to the male body and tell the other sperm cells how they should adapt them self!(for the journey they are going to face), this has not happened, and yet we see the sperm cell completely geared up for this hard task!, from tail, to the enzymes, to the carbohydrated based ''engine'', science says its life greatest miracle!,(i am not insulting no body, am i just beg to ask this question this it has bothered me a while ). So how do you atheists believe this all happened? (particularly the sperm cell). thanks alot for reading so far! peace

Why do birds fly south in the winter. Different question same answer. And the answer contains more than 3 or 5 letters.

On second thought, you will never get it.

Those that do, survive, those that don't, don't.

 

[Isambard]

I am no biologist so I cant answer you in any detail.

What I can do is question what you mean by 'perfect state'.

If you think about it, its actually quite the opposite. Being a sperm cell aint no fun! Statistically speaking you have a better chance of surviving a trip to the sun then you do of 'making it' as a sperm cell!.

Anyone good at math can help me out.

-What is the avg of total intercourse in a man's life vs. nocternal emissions?
-How many MILLIONS (maybe more) of sperm cells are in ejaculate? Compare that to the 1 that can make it (in typical cases).
-Sperm can only develop if in contact with an egg. A man has little chance of knowing when a female is fertile, so how many times has sperm been 'wasted'?
-Even if a woman is fertile, what is the ratio of times the sperm wont make it or it wont take?

I'd call the system far from perfect.

 

[Mikayeel]

It is the sperm cells best adapted that ended up joining with the eggs, hence their genes and characteristics that are perpetuated in subsequent generations. There is no need to "tell the other sperm cells how to evolve" in the way you suggest... indeed they have no way of evolving, as the 'failures' do not reproduce.

You seem to agree that there is a perfect one!, but how did that sperm get so perfect?

Why do birds fly south in the winter. Different question same answer. And the answer contains more than 3 or 5 letters.

On second thought, you will never get it.

Those that do, survive, those that don't, don't.

Your are involving in organism that has a brain (full funtioning brain) this case a bird, its able to make decisions!, and i am talking about a cell, which has no brain! unable to make decisions, unable to take care of its self!

I am no biologist so I cant answer you in any detail.

What I can do is question what you mean by 'perfect state'.

If you think about it, its actually quite the opposite. Being a sperm cell aint no fun! Statistically speaking you have a better chance of surviving a trip to the sun then you do of 'making it' as a sperm cell!.

A sperm carries the genitic data, from the male body the to women body.
The Body of the sperm is just build like a machine, the head of the sperm is covered by an armor, covering another armor, that armor is covering the cargo which contains the 23 chromosomes, all the information concerning the human body right down to the finest detail are carried inside the chromosomes. The chromosomes need to unite with of the women to create a humen being.
Armor system will protect this valuable cargo right trough its journey.
The engine is at the middle of the sperm, enabling the tail to move like propeller, since there is an engine there has to be somekind of fuel on which the engine runs on, and since fructose is a monosaccharide very high in energy, its been placed in the liquid surrounding the sperms(why is this fructose? Not glucose or galactose or ribose? etc). Thanks to this perfect design the sperm heads straight to the egg cell. When the length of the sperm and the distance travelled are considered it emerges that this relativly as fast as a speed boat!
The sperms armor, engine and tail parts are assembled to one another in turns, what emerges as a result is a wonderfull piece of engineering. Now think alit bit!, how do these unconscious cells know how to prepare the sperm cell in the appropriate form? Despite the fact they know nothing about the mothers body. With what intelligence did they assemble these components in the correct order? How do they know that the engine needs fructose? How did they learn how to build an engine that runs of fructose? The number of sperm cells emitted is delibratly kept high because as soon as they enter the womens body they find themself facing lethal danger. There is a dense mixture of acids in the mothers reproductive organs designed to combat bacteria this acid mixture is also fatal to sperm. This acid is fatal for the womens health and its so powerfull that it could destroy all the sperm cells and in that case fertilisation could of not taken place, and we would not be here discussing this now!, Look at the fluid the sperm is in a basic compound is added to it! This compound partially eliminate the effects of the acids in the mothers womb, this will keep the number reaching an egg to fertilize high! And if you notice closely you will see that all the sperm cells follow the same path, how do they know which path to choose? How do they know where the egg not larger than a spec of dust is? This is thought of in the most of perfect of ways, the egg gives of chemical signals to attract the sperm cells
Refering to the quran
It is we who have created you. Why, then do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed i.e sperm) which you emit?
It is you who created it?
Or are we the creator?
(surha al waqia : 57-59)

I have to ask, is it still not in perfect condition?, if it wasnt perfect my friend you and me wouldnt even be here discussing this very matter!

peace!

 

[Trumble]

You seem to agree that there is a perfect one!, but how did that sperm get so perfect?

It doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough and very, very lucky (is a winning lottery ticket any more 'perfect' than any other lottery ticket?) What gets weeded out (very slowly) are those not good enough.

I don't mean to seem rude, but your question has been answered. You just aren't listening.

 

[guyabano]

Spermcells are far away to be perfect. They are lazy ass, it take them more than a day to find their way, and besides, a man shoot millions of them and only one make it.

When I fill out 10 millions of lottery papers, my chance to win is also rather high, don't you think, but my ratio is rather bad

Among organisms, those who reach a certain degree of perfection are insects like cockroaches. They didn't change their physical appearance for millions of years, so you can say, that they reached a level, where is no more requests to change anything on them. They will even survive an atomic war, even mankind.

 

[Mikayeel]

It doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough and very, very lucky (is a winning lottery ticket any more 'perfect' than any other lottery ticket?) What gets weeded out (very slowly) are those not good enough.

I don't mean to seem rude, but your question has been answered. You just aren't listening.

no answer here satisfies the question, all the answer just spin around the question. quote me an answer, giving here above which is a rational answer that truely satisfies the question?

Spermcells are far away to be perfect. They are lazy ass, it take them more than a day to find their way, and besides, a man shoot millions of them and only one make it.

When I fill out 10 millions of lottery papers, my chance to win is also rather high, don't you think, but my ratio is rather bad

From the above, what i have written about the journey the sperm cell, quote a sentence that proves it being not so perfect at what it does(i am not talking about a single cell)(am talking about the whole journey and the mechanism behind it). maybe thats a good things after all!? that you emit about 250 million sperm cells, regardless of how long it takes or how many are emitted. why dont see it from an other side, that maybe the journey to the final egg is a tough journey and alot are emitted so a PERFECT one does make it. and i dont seem to understand what you mean by the term ''lazyass''
how is a sperm lazy? this has got to be the strangest thing i have recently. peace

 

[glo]

You seem to agree that there is a perfect one!, but how did that sperm get so perfect?

Not really. Actually, what I did say in my post was this:

From an evolutionary point of view, a sperm would have evolved to its present 'perfect state' (if you want to call it that) over tens of thousands of years:

According to evolution theory, nothing is perfect, but everything strives for perfection.
If humans live for another few thousand generations, you may find that sperm cells have changed, evolved, and become even better suited to their purpose.

A sperm carries the genitic data, from the male body the to women body.
The Body of the sperm is just build like a machine, the head of the sperm is covered by an armor, covering another armor, that armor is covering the cargo which contains the 23 chromosomes, all the information concerning the human body right down to the finest detail are carried inside the chromosomes. The chromosomes need to unite with of the women to create a humen being.
Armor system will protect this valuable cargo right trough its journey.
The engine is at the middle of the sperm, enabling the tail to move like propeller, since there is an engine there has to be somekind of fuel on which the engine runs on, and since fructose is a monosaccharide very high in energy, its been placed in the liquid surrounding the sperms(why is this fructose? Not glucose or galactose or ribose? etc). Thanks to this perfect design the sperm heads straight to the egg cell. When the length of the sperm and the distance travelled are considered it emerges that this relativly as fast as a speed boat!
The sperms armor, engine and tail parts are assembled to one another in turns, what emerges as a result is a wonderfull piece of engineering. Now think alit bit!, how do these unconscious cells know how to prepare the sperm cell in the appropriate form? Despite the fact they know nothing about the mothers body. With what intelligence did they assemble these components in the correct order? How do they know that the engine needs fructose? How did they learn how to build an engine that runs of fructose? The number of sperm cells emitted is delibratly kept high because as soon as they enter the womens body they find themself facing lethal danger. There is a dense mixture of acids in the mothers reproductive organs designed to combat bacteria this acid mixture is also fatal to sperm. This acid is fatal for the womens health and its so powerfull that it could destroy all the sperm cells and in that case fertilisation could of not taken place, and we would not be here discussing this now!, Look at the fluid the sperm is in a basic compound is added to it! This compound partially eliminate the effects of the acids in the mothers womb, this will keep the number reaching an egg to fertilize high! And if you notice closely you will see that all the sperm cells follow the same path, how do they know which path to choose? How do they know where the egg not larger than a spec of dust is? This is thought of in the most of perfect of ways, the egg gives of chemical signals to attract the sperm cells
Refering to the quran
It is we who have created you. Why, then do you not accept the truth? Have you ever considered that (seed i.e sperm) which you emit?
It is you who created it?
Or are we the creator?
(surha al waqia : 57-59)

I have to ask, is it still not in perfect condition?, if it wasnt perfect my friend you and me wouldnt even be here discussing this very matter!

peace!

I agree that the process of human reproduction is an amazing one!
Come to think of that, life is full of amazing and wondrous things!

Evolution theory clearly is at odds with creationism. There is no way around it.
We will have to live with the fact that different people have different explanations or theories to explain life as we know it.

As it happens, I believe (like you) that God is behind the creation of the universe.
Just how he did it, I am not sure ... and I don't think I need to be!
I am fairly at peace with the different theories people come up with.
Evolution theory happens to make a lot of sense - and continues to gather supporting evidence all the time!

Peace

 

[ricardo_sousa]

the sperm cell is just a biological function of our body. But it is not perfect. No, because that are many men who are infertile. In this cases "God failed".lol

Basic it is a biological function, that evolution have made "good enough". But it is not perfect. about "250 million sperm cells, regardless of how long it takes or how many are emitted. (...) so a PERFECT one does make it".. you should study mathematics and the probabilities theories.

Because is such a difficult "journey", the more you have, the more chances you have of "wining". It is the same with turtles: they have thousands of "babies", because only a few will survive. It´s evolution, survive and mathematics what you need to learn.

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Bro, what's even more surprising is that the most important issue - i.e. life itself, or the production of the first cell to be existent is something harder to believe.

Like, just because people want to deny the concept of God - they really don't have a fair enough explanation as to why or how that first living cell was formed. Their only argument is that the cell was formed while being in a warm puddle of some sort, some lighting came and brought it to life under the right circumstances. Whereas scientific research shows that you can't produce something living from something non living, although some may argue otherwise.


The idea of natural selection, and the survival of the fittest is a good and valid point when discussing different species. However, this in of itself isn't something we deny. It's simply a design and pattern in Allah's creation.


About the issue of the big bang, again - they require more faith than us. Since there is no proof that there have been billions of big bangs to reach one stable one - which we exist in today. Since we're all living one life in this world, we might aswell put our faith in something which has alot more validity or clearer explanation.



Think about it - does this look like it's happened by 'accident'?

So in reality - they require more faith than we as believers in God do. lol.

 

[Godless Heathen]

The long and short of both evolution and nature in general is that the whole thing is basically a sieve method.

Scenario - You want to access someone's bank account. You have their card but not their pin number. You know it consists of four numbers. You can punch in every single combination of XXXX with the numbers of 1 through to 0.

Eventually, after a certain amount of time and a certain amount of tries, you get the right 4 digit number. That 4 digit number is remembered and the others forgotten.

That's basically evolution in a nutshell.

 

[Trumble]

no answer here satisfies the question, all the answer just spin around the question. quote me an answer, giving here above which is a rational answer that truely satisfies the question?

You.

You seem to agree that there is a perfect one!, but how did that sperm get so perfect?

Me.

It doesn't have to be perfect, just good enough and very, very lucky (is a winning lottery ticket any more 'perfect' than any other lottery ticket?) What gets weeded out (very slowly) are those not good enough.

The answer is both perfectly rational and satisfies the question, as do several others that have been posted. As I said, you just aren't listening.

From the above, what i have written about the journey the sperm cell, quote a sentence that proves it being not so perfect at what it does(i am not talking about a single cell)(am talking about the whole journey and the mechanism behind it). maybe thats a good things after all!? that you emit about 250 million sperm cells, regardless of how long it takes or how many are emitted. why dont see it from an other side, that maybe the journey to the final egg is a tough journey and alot are emitted so a PERFECT one does make it.

I'm not sure I can make it any clearer.. my lottery example was about the best I could do. It does not have to be 'perfect' just a) good enough and b) lucky. ONE sperm has to get there first, just as one person will win a road-race but to do that they need only be good and a little lucky with regard to, say, weather conditions that suit them, not the 'perfect' athlete. If a particular sperm was, in fact, perfect no others would be needed at all let alone 250 million of them. I'd point out that on a lot of occasions none of them make it, and on rare ones several do. Just as some weeks there are no winning lottery tickets and on others several.

 

[guyabano]

:salamext:
Their only argument is that the cell was formed while being in a warm puddle of some sort, some lighting came and brought it to life under the right circumstances.

So you have your answer. Still better than the 'Creator story' . For creating life, basically, 2 Elements are necessary: Carbon and H2O (water). Astroscientists all over the globe look in space for planets having those 2 elements. On Mars, they found traces of water, ergo, there might be also bacterias swimming somewhere.
In my opinion, that is proove enough for the theory of evolution.

 

[- Qatada -]

So you have your answer. Still better than the 'Creator story' . For creating life, basically, 2 Elements are necessary: Carbon and H2O (water).

Astroscientists all over the globe look in space for planets having those 2 elements. On Mars, they found traces of water, ergo, there might be also bacterias swimming somewhere.

Yeah, shall i tell you what's even more surprising? A man who was totally illiterate, who didn't know how to read or write, living in a desert land knew this!?

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

[Qur'an 21: 30]
​

 

[جوري]

is this the thread of utter rubbish?
I hope anyone serious enough to study spermatogenesis, both the genetics and physiology of itwill purchase a book. Please keep your philosophy to sections where it is more apropos, this is health and science not the fruits of mental infarction section..
Proteomics of Spermatogenesis is a good place to start.. actually I find that people appreciate the complexity of this guided process more when looking at it from the branch of molecular biology.

http://books.google.com/books?id=20...ie=ISO-8859-1&sig=ies4PwC4LzdxeoP-dwIygVL4xGY


cheers

 

[Godless Heathen]

Yeah, shall i tell you what's even more surprising? A man who was totally illiterate, who didn't know how to read or write, living in a desert land knew this!?

Do not the Unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together (as one unit of creation), before we clove them asunder? We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe?

[Qur'an 21: 30]
​

I assume they mean everything on earth? There are some interesting theories on alternative biochemistry for other planets Here.