Trading Gold/Silver Online - Avoiding Riba

[kaya]

Asalaamu Alaikum,

There are two parts to my question, I just want to make sure my transactions are halal: I have recently started buying gold/silver online, and having it delivered to my house. I have become away of Riba Al Nasiah, usury of delay, because obviously the delivery time means i have to wait a day for it to The Prophet (saw) told us to trade gold and silver 'hand to hand'. ie, without delays. I have done research and a Dr Monzer Kahf (a doctor of Islamic economies) says that it should not be an unneccesary delay, ie, if one person wants to deliver it in two weeks time. He also says that the OIC Fiqh Academy deems it halal as long as the transaction and delivery times are reasonable, ie, bank transfer times and delivery times. The company I buy from despatch the gold to me on the same day as i sent payment, so that should be fine right? Source below:

Sale of gold, silver and currencies for each other requires in Shari'ah immediate delivery of the price and the sold metal or currency because the Prophet, pbuh, said that such sale must be ôYadan bi YadË, or ôHa' bi Ha'.Ë This means immediate delivery/possession at the time of contract. However, recognizing that cases of international sales and banking transfers normally take some time for reaching the other party, the OIC Fiqh Academy resolves that any normal period a transfer or delivery takes is disregarded and the transaction is still considered Yadan bi Yad.

Source: Sorry, I cannot post links because I'm a new member. But it can be found on Dr Monzer Kahn's wesbsite.

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Also, there is another website which allows you to buy and sell gold/silver over the internet, for profit. I know this is halal (Cant post links, but 'The Sunni Path' questiona dn answer site confirms it as halal)...

However once again I fear Riba Al Nasiah. However, the gold and silver you buy and sell on this website is 100% instantaneous. As soon as I click buy, the gold is immediately mine, and stored in vaults. It's real, physical gold, I just never see it, but it is mine instantly. This should be fine right? As you can see, I have done some research and as far as I can see, both of these things are halal for me. However I just want to double check with you guys for more opinions, as I don't want to fall into Haram. Also the website in question is safe, and not a scam. They are a huge company and you can google them under: BullionVault.

JazakAllah.

 

[kaya]

Can naybody hep me out? :hmm:

 

[ardianto]

Assalamualaikum.

Maybe nobody here familiar with Bullionvault, me too. But I will try to answer.

After the transaction, the seller is obligated to gives the gold to buyer immediately. However, the seller can still keep that gold as long as:
- With your permission.
- Status of the gold is belong to you.
- The gold is not be used without your permission, especially for speculative purpose.
- The amount/weight is not changed, either becomes more or becomes less.
- You can take that gold anytime. Or, you can order the party that sold the gold to sell your gold to the other party anytime. Status of the party that sold the gold to you is not the owner, but the party that given authority by you to sell your gold.

But remember, I do not say buy and sell gold through Bullionvault is halal or haram.

 

[kaya]

Assalamualaikum.

Maybe nobody here familiar with Bullionvault, me too. But I will try to answer.

After the transaction, the seller is obligated to gives the gold to buyer immediately. However, the seller can still keep that gold as long as:
- With your permission.
- Status of the gold is belong to you.
- The gold is not be used without your permission, especially for speculative purpose.
- The amount/weight is not changed, either becomes more or becomes less.
- You can take that gold anytime. Or, you can order the party that sold the gold to sell your gold to the other party anytime. Status of the party that sold the gold to you is not the owner, but the party that given authority by you to sell your gold.

But remember, I do not say buy and sell gold through Bullionvault is halal or haram.

Wa'alaikum Salam.

Thank you for replying. Yes that is generally how BullionVault works. Basically, the gold or silver is yours immediately, wever it is done virtually rather than physically. So does ths still cont as 'hand to hand'? Any hep will be welcomed insh'Allah.

Also, I'd like opinions on buying gold and silver to be delivered the next day, as specified in the OP. Does this 'delay' of delivery invalidate the transaction? (Riba Al Nasiah).

JazakhAllah.

 

[ardianto]

Thank you for replying. Yes that is generally how BullionVault works. Basically, the gold or silver is yours immediately, wever it is done virtually rather than physically. So does ths still cont as 'hand to hand'? Any hep will be welcomed insh'Allah.

The gold or silver should be physically, not virtually. If virtually, it's means the goods is not available.

Also, I'd like opinions on buying gold and silver to be delivered the next day, as specified in the OP. Does this 'delay' of delivery invalidate the transaction? (Riba Al Nasiah).

When a transaction takes place, the goods (in this case the gold) must be available, and immediately become yours. But if you do not mind, you can just leave the goods at the seller, and pick it up tomorrow or the next few days. The party that keep this goods cannot do anything with the goods without your permission, and must give the goods when you take it.

The prohibition to delay delivery is for case like, the gold is not available when transaction begin but the seller make a promise to give the gold later.

 

[kaya]

JazakhAllah Ardianto.

For BullionVault, it IS physical gold. The gold stays in their vaults in London, soidont actually SEE it. Nobody can use it without my permission and i can request it any time i like, it's my property. Does this mean it is halal? Since there is no delay when he gold becomes mine?

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As for buying Gold/Silver online and gettijng it delivered, of course the gold and silver do exist, and there is no long delay or promise, they deliver it the next day after payent has been made. The gold and silver is available when i purchae, it just takes time to deliver it to my house. Would you also say this was halal?

InshAllah both these things are halal for me. I would love to hear more opinions also.

 

[kaya]

Anyone? I apologise for being annoying, I just really need a straight answer...

 

[ardianto]

For BullionVault, it IS physical gold. The gold stays in their vaults in London, soidont actually SEE it. Nobody can use it without my permission and i can request it any time i like, it's my property. Does this mean it is halal? Since there is no delay when he gold becomes mine?

Like I've said, I am not familiar with BullionVault. But as long as this is trading, this is halal. I mean you take profit only of the difference in price when you buy and when you sell.

As for buying Gold/Silver online and gettijng it delivered, of course the gold and silver do exist, and there is no long delay or promise, they deliver it the next day after payent has been made. The gold and silver is available when i purchae, it just takes time to deliver it to my house. Would you also say this was halal?

This is halal. However, the trading process has not finished until you receive the goods. If something happen to the goods before you receive it like lost or broken in delivery process, the seller must be responsible.

 

[Snowflake]

Brother Kaya,

I find this whole business a bit worrying. I see from the BV site that your gold is kept in a vault of 'your choice'. But that doesn't mean it's allocated gold. Unless the gold is specifically 'allocated', all it means is that the bank owes you gold which does not belong to you. Your ownership also depends solely on the company's survival. If they crash, you lose everything. On the other hand if it's allocated then it's yours. But there's a fee for withdrawing it, and fees (including insurance - not to mention insurance is also haram as it's not something you're forced to do like have car insurance) for having it held in storage.

I have recently started buying gold/silver online, and having it delivered to my house.

It's real, physical gold, I just never see it, but it is mine instantly.

This is a bit confusing bro. Which one of the statements is correct?

BV may be perfectly legit and there's no reason to believe they are not. But islamically, in the buying and selling of gold, the exchange of gold/silver and money has to take place immediately. That means the gold must be 'physically in your hands' as soon as the payment is made. This is not the same as it being in your account. Regardless of what Dr Monzer Kahf says about recognizing delays in virtual transactions, Islam has made it clear that you must receive the gold/silver in your hands, not in your name, in the same sitting. Allah and His Prophet (saw) gave us every concession we needed for all times, and the delaying of receiving the gold/silver upon payment, in any case was not one of them. In those time people traveled for months for trade, yet no concession for delays was made for the buying and selling of silver and gold.

It is well known in Islam that when buying gold for currency, the exchange should take place in the same sitting where the transaction is agreed upon, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Gold for gold, silver for silver, like for like, same for same, hand to hand… If it is an exchange of one of these things for another, then sell as you like, so long as it is hand to hand.”
Narrated by Muslim, 1578.

http://islamqa.info/en/ref/169358

 

[kaya]

Asalaamu Alaikum to both of you.

JazakhAllah for giving your opinions.

Dying Rose, you slightly misunderstood my OP. The two 'conflicting' points were two different things altogether. I wanted to use BullionVault, and I had a question about that.

I also wanted to SEPARATELY order Gold/Silver from another company, unelated to BV. They would despatch the gold to my house the same day as payment is made. And I also wanted to use another company to buy gold physically online, to be delivered the next day.

I was asking abut two different companies offering two different services.

I see what you mean with BV, Insurance, them owning me Gold, etc. I agree with you, this would be Haram. I will avoid BullionVault.

However Ardianto has said that he believes the other question I had, regarding simply buying Gold & Silver online, is halal. Would you agree? The company (NOT BV) send out the gold to me the same day I pay. So I recieve it the next day. Surely this is about a 'hand to hand' as it can get?

I would love to hear from you again, inshAllah.

 

[Snowflake]

Assalamu alaykum,

Sorry for the misunderstanding brother Kaya. Glad to hear you'll avoid BV masha Allah. From the fatwa though, it's clear that any online trade in silver/gold is forbidden - even it it's includes a next day delivery service, as this still opposes the 'hand to hand' ruling which means the gold and it's payment must exchange hands in one sitting - yaani face to face in person. I found some more questions and answers on the subject though. Hope it helps insha Allah bro.

Question: There is a company selling gold via the internet. Is it permissible to buy from them or to bring them customers and receive payment for that?.

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Answer: Praise be to Allaah. It is well known in Islam that when buying gold for currency, the exchange should take place in the same sitting where the transaction is agreed upon, because the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Gold for gold, silver for silver, like for like, same for same, hand to hand… If it is an exchange of one of these things for another, then sell as you like, so long as it is hand to hand.” http://islamqa.info/en/ref/34325

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Question: A company sells gold in a way that if you buy gold for $800 from it, you will be a member in this company. If you bring six buyers and they buy from the company, you will be an affective member and you will have continuous profits from this company forever according to how much it makes. Is it permissible to join this company?


Answer: Praise be to Allaah.
It is not permissible to join companies that are based on pyramid marketing, because this transaction involves gambling and consuming people’s wealth unlawfully, and tricking and deceiving them by telling them that they will make unbelievable profits, which are very rarely achieved by those who join these companies. This has been discussed in detail in the answer to question no. 40263, 42579 and 45898.
Moreover, the company sells gold, and the gold does not reach the purchaser until several days after the contract is done, and this is another reservation about this company. When selling gold for cash, it is stipulated that the gold and the money be handed over in the same sitting as that in which the contract is drawn up, because the Prophet SAWS (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Gold for gold, silver for silver, wheat for wheat, barley for barley, dates for dates, salt for salt, like for like, same for same, hand to hand. If any of these types are different, then sell however you like, so long as it is hand to hand.” Narrated by Muslim (2970) from the hadeeth of ‘Ubaadah ibn al-Saamit (may Allaah be pleased with him). http://islamqa.info/en/ref/95378

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Question: There is an auction site on the internet called bidz.com It auctions the items for sale, which are jewellery (gold, silver, diamonds, rubies)
Answer: It is not permissible to buy gold or silver through this website, because it is stipulated that there be an immediate hand to hand exchange when selling gold and silver for gold and silver or currencies. This hand-to-hand exchange does not happen in this case; rather the product is not delivered to the shipping company until a few days after receiving the price. See the answer to question number 95378 and 72404.
http://islamqa.info/en/ref/142652

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[Abz2000]

i do my best to buy hand to hand, and agree with the shop that i pay the price at the time of exchange,
but it seems online delivery in the time of internet is almost unavoidable as technically, it's guaranteed by the carrier to full cost and yours as soon as they obtain proof of posting.
Allah a'lam though, as there is a hadith describing umar (ra) forbidding a similar situation (below).
i prefer hand to hand - though i have bought a couple of coins on ebay in the past.
also leaves no silly records for them to log as there was once a gold confiscation in the us by fdr - where they scammed it (forcefully took it at a low price and sold it back to people at higher prices.
the bullion vault thing is something i dont agree with as it is exactly how usury based banking came about, where the goldsmith realised that people were trading his receipts in the market rather than pick up the gold and someone else re-deposit it.
once he realised that only 10% of metal was ever collected, he began to lend it out on interest, and rather than the people paying him to safekeep it in his vault, he paid them interest not to collect it. then he went as far as handing out more receipts than he had gold, since people were so used to his useless paper cheques, that they were forgetting that paper was a receipt for gold and silver and began calling it "money" rather than a receipt for money. thus was born fractional reserve lending.
and anyway, the purpose of the people having the gold and silver in the islamic system is so that the economic power remains in the hands of the people.
you can understand the situation simply by asking them if they'd refuse to comply if the government demanded (through new legislation) the money of the people which they hold as a trust - and i'm sure you already know the answer.
the lady i spoke to told me that it was kept in safekeeping but was mine, i asked if i could pick it up anytime, and she said - with a fee.
the purpose is to trade while they hold it.
which is basically like trading in an imaginary item that may or may not exist - like the banking system does with derivatives etc.

anyways, there are a couple of hadith regarding hand to hand here:
Short selling:
Ibn Umar Narrated that the Prophet (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) said:
"He who buys foodstuff, should not sell it until he has received it."
(Sahih Muslim - 1526)

Malik son of 'Aus son of Al Hadathan reported:
"I was in need of change for 100 dinars (gold coins - denarius).
Talhah the son of 'Ubaidullah called me and we discussed the matter, and he agreed to change (my dinars).
He took the gold pieces and toppled them with his hands, and then said: "Wait until my servant comes."
'Umar the son of Khattab - May God be pleased with him (close companion of the Messenger of God -(PBUH))
who was present and was listening, said:
"By Allah! You either give him the silver, or give him back his gold.
The Messenger of God (May Allah bless him and grant him peace) said:
'Exchanging gold for silver is usury unless it is exchanged on the spot.
Exchanging wheat for wheat is usury unless it is exchanged on the spot.
Exchanging barley for barley is usury unless it is exchanged on the spot.
Exchanging dates for dates is usury unless it is exchanged on the spot.' "
(Bukhari 2174)

The problem with delayed selling was that some would manipulate it by for example agreeing to give gold, and saying that the amount in silver would be calculated according to the ratio with gold at the time of hajj- and paid then, when silver was more expensive at the time of hajj due to pilgrims bringing gold with them and needing to convert it to silver for daily use. It was a back door form of usury.
I'm sure that is not the intention in your case.
Though umar (ra)'s interpretation of the Hadith is strictly literal in order to avoid confusion.
Plus the fact that the buyer was preventing the seller of the silver from getting other offers in the time waiting though it was his right.

here's some info i put together a couple years back:
http://abz2000.com/TheMoneyChangers.aspx

btw, have you tried phoning your local pawn shops?
many of them source bars at around or less than internet price.

 

[Abz2000]

If you're in London, I can guide you to a few sources who can source pure silver kilo bars 999, and others who sell 22k gold coins at spot price (according to purity) + 4%,

Bear in mind that if you plan to save it long term,
That Islamic currency will be 22k for gold
And 999+ for silver

Peace,
Abz

 

[kaya]

Asalaamu Alaikum.

Alhamdulillah, I'd like to thank everyone who posted in this thread. You have really helped me. Thank you for showing me the revelant hadiths DyingRose and Abz2000.

I have made up my mind that BullionVault is haram and also that buying gold via the internet is haram, even if theres one day delay.

And so, I will have to look into buying it over the counter inshAllah. Abz, I am indeed from London, could you perhaps PM me with where you buy your gold from? Thanks for the tip about pawn shops as well.

I hope this thread will be useful to others in my situation also. JazakhAllah to everybody.

 

[ardianto]

My source told me like I have said.





But, it's better you follow the majority.

 

[Snowflake]

Asalaamu Alaikum.

Alhamdulillah, I'd like to thank everyone who posted in this thread. You have really helped me. Thank you for showing me the revelant hadiths DyingRose and Abz2000.

I have made up my mind that BullionVault is haram and also that buying gold via the internet is haram, even if theres one day delay.

And so, I will have to look into buying it over the counter inshAllah. Abz, I am indeed from London, could you perhaps PM me with where you buy your gold from? Thanks for the tip about pawn shops as well.

I hope this thread will be useful to others in my situation also. JazakhAllah to everybody.

Al hamdulillah that's good to hear brother Kaya. All good is from Allah. May Allah reward you and grant you the highest success in this and your next life. Ameen. This thread has been a source of knowledge for myself too, and I am sure insha Allah it will benefit others.

 

[kaya]

Al hamdulillah that's good to hear brother Kaya. All good is from Allah. May Allah reward you and grant you the highest success in this and your next life. Ameen. This thread has been a source of knowledge for myself too, and I am sure insha Allah it will benefit others.

JazakhAllah, may Allah grant you everything you have asked him to grant me, in this life and in the akhirah, ameen. Thanks again to everyone, I hope this thread helps many n the future.