what do christians & jews believe in?

[May Ayob]

Ah, so a prophet might just receive a revelation from God, but never themselves share it with others? Because sharing it with others would in fact make them a messenger. This is true because the definition of "messenger" is "one who delivers a message." Thus the only way for a prophet to not be a messenger would be to not deliver any message associated with whatever revelation you claim they have received. That concept (which I personally find ridiculous) is what you have succeeded in making clear.

I don't know what you find ridicoulous in what Muslom said
Muslom did not say the Prophets do not share their message , she said the difference is that a prophet does not have mission like messengers do, You do acknowledge that there is a difference between Moses and Job in their Prophecies,Right?
This is what Msulom had said was based on I 'think' as I can not speak on Muslom's behalf.
Pace be to you

 

[Grace Seeker]

I don't want to interrupt your reply
But I thought Christ was for "everyone"?

Indeed Christ is for everyone. But not everyone knows Christ. That is while Christ might offer himself unconditionally to all, not all accept that offer.

According to that I think Muslom does believe that Christ is a messenger and Just like you Love Christ , Every Muslims Loves Him too.
So no need to say these things as what matters is what God Judges and not what we Judge

Peace be to you

I have no problem with what you say here. Of course I believe the Jesus is more than just a messenger, but that is for another thread. As for what Muslom posted, Christ is not just a person of history, but continues to interact with those who belong to him today. The Holy Spirit makes Christ known to those who belong to Christ. Unfortunately, there are many others in this world who close themselves off to the Spirit's presence and operation in their lives. Unless one is in a living and active relationship with Christ, I don't understand how one can say that he/she is aquainted with Christ. This is what we mean when we say that we "know" someone. Not that we have read about them in a book, but that we are in communication with them. I know of no Muslim, however much they claim to love Christ, who claims to have active communication with Christ and so they can't really claim to know him, only to know of him. There is a difference. And that difference precludes one from saying as Muslom did say:

I am more than sure that prophet Christ (PBUH) wouldn't approve of...

Without knowing Christ, he can't be sure what Christ would or would not approve of, what Christ would or would not say, what Christ would or would not do.

 

[May Ayob]

Ah, so a prophet might just receive a revelation from God, but never themselves share it with others? Because sharing it with others would in fact make them a messenger. This is true because the definition of "messenger" is "one who delivers a message." Thus the only way for a prophet to not be a messenger would be to not deliver any message associated with whatever revelation you claim they have received. That concept (which I personally find ridiculous) is what you have succeeded in making clear.

I don't see what is ridiculous in what Musloms had said?
Muslom did not say that the Prophets do not share their message, Muslom said that the difference between a Prophet and a Messenger is that one is sent on a mission like Moses , or Noah PBUH
You do acknowledge the difference between Moses in and Job in terms of Prophecy , Right?
I think Muslims Jews and Christians can all agree that there was a difference between Moses ( a Messenger and a prophet) and Job( a Prophet but not a Messenger)

Peace be to you

 

[Grace Seeker]

I don't know what you find ridicoulous in what Muslom said
Muslom did not say the Prophets do not share their message , she said the difference is that a prophet does not have mission like messengers do, You do acknowledge that there is a difference between Moses and Job in their Prophecies,Right?
This is what Msulom had said was based on I 'think' as I can not speak on Muslom's behalf.
Pace be to you

But if prophets do share their message then, by definition, they are in fact messengers, for what makes a person into a messenger is the process of delivering a message.

That is what I found ridiculous. Muslom attempts to make a distinction of roles where the language itself will allow none. I understand that you want to cast their missions differently. That's fine. But even if their mission is different than that of those who have the title of Messenger. Prophets, by virtue of doing exactly what you have described them as doing are in effect messengers as well. And to say that they deliver such a message, but are not messengers because I want to use that term exclusively for a different group of people is what I call ridiculous. It might be true in Arabic, but not in English for in English one who delivers a message is a messenger.

You're serving as a messenger when you share with me what you think Muslom has intended to say. I cannot change the language to make it say something else other than what it says -- those who deliver messages (i.e. "I received this revelation from God") are by the very process of delivering a message messengers.

 

[Darth Ultor]

A messenger has to have a book revealed to him I think. By the way, are there any female prophets?

 

[جوري]

But I thought Christ was for "everyone"?

Not really, christ was sent to the lost sheep of Israel: "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," Matthew 15:24
in fact all messengers were sent to their specific people except for prophet Mohammed (PBUH) who was sent to all of mankind!

 

[جوري]

By the way, are there any female prophets?

females are mothers to prophets, however Mary had a very high status and a few others had a very honorable status and mention!
a prophet's job isn't easy, they take much abuse and are often murdered, tortured and mocked by their people..


best

 

[Grace Seeker]

Not really, christ was sent to the lost sheep of Israel: "I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," Matthew 15:24
in fact all messengers were sent to their specific people except for prophet Mohammed (PBUH) who was sent to all of mankind!

I understand that this is the Islamic understanding of Jesus' role based on a narrow interpretation of this verse, but it is a variance from the Christian understanding of his role which reads this individual verse in the broader context of the whole of his life and ministry.

 

[Grace Seeker]

A messenger has to have a book revealed to him I think.

That addition brings clarity to the issue that was missing from Muslom's original post that made messengers the revealer of a message and prophets sharing the message of the revelation they received, but still not being seen as a messenger. With this addition, of having to have a book revealed to them, there is then a technical use of the term "messenger" that is unique to Islam.

 

[جوري]

I understand that this is the Islamic understanding of Jesus' role based on a narrow interpretation of this verse, but it is a variance from the Christian understanding of his role which reads this individual verse in the broader context of the whole of his life and ministry.

There is nothing narrow about the view considering first and foremost the term 'only' as per verse and secondly as per the message.. Jesus didn't establish a system comparable to that of Moses or Mohammed nor did he (per christian understanding) even keep the commandments of the OT with regards to the Sabbath, circumcision, fast, prayer, or other prohibitions discussed here so often it has become stale to repeat. A Messenger/prophet has to establish an entire system (the system of God) Jesus per you died and couldn't in fact even choose effectual apostles as such he had to abrogate his commandments in a clandestine fashion through a shady character (Saul) .. This is blatantly obvious to everyone but apparently not the average christian or even the learned amongst them, one wonders why they choose to avert their vision to what is so blatantly obvious..

best,

 

[May Ayob]

If this is true, then it is a very good argument for not needing to become a Muslim. Thank-you for sharing your views.

Is it me or My post was deleted??
Any way
Ofcourse It is True!
I could ask you the same question:
What do you say about a bad Christian who did not apply/follow Christ PBUH teachings , and another non-christian who is good and follows their heart and conscience?
Would God sentence the Christian to Hell for only 3 days and then take him to Heaven just because they are Christian??
That wouldn't be fair , We must all regardless of our religious background belive in God's Justice.
And God does account people according to their deeds and heart(intentions) and God gives Heaven to whoever He wills regardless of our pre-conceived thoughts about who and who isn't going to Heaven or Hell
I didn't bring this from myself , There are many verses in the Quran that confirm this also many Hadeeth - Sayings of the Prophet PBUH.

Peace be to you

 

[Grace Seeker]

Is it me or My post was deleted??

I don't know. What post do you think was deleted?

When I said: "If this is true, then it is a very good argument for not needing to become a Muslim." I was commenting on Muslom's statement: "In the End people will be Judged according to their deeds and intentions and not to which denomination of fanaticism they supported."

I said what I said because if Muslom's statement is true, it in essence argues that it matters not whether one is Methodist, Lutheran, Protestant, Catholic, Christian, Sunni, Shi'a, Muslim, Rastafarian, or anything at all; all that matters is one deeds.

May Ayob, you say: "Of course It is True!" I wonder how many of your fellow Muslims would agree with that assertion. If this is Islam, it is new to me.

I could ask you the same question:
What do you say about a bad Christian who did not apply/follow Christ PBUH teachings , and another non-christian who is good and follows their heart and conscience?
Would God sentence the Christian to Hell for only 3 days and then take him to Heaven just because they are Christian??

This is NOT the same question.

As to the respective scenarios you posit, you haven't provided enough information to be able to answer the question.

What do you mean by "bad" Christian? No Christians are not as good of a Christian as we should be. We all fall short of God's standard for our lives. That is why we are dependent on what God does to rescue us, not we do to rescue ourselves. If it was up to what we did and our own "goodness" none would be saved.


And likewise, what do you mean by a non-christian who is good and follows their heart and conscience? As I've already said, none is good enough to be saved. And the following of the human heart and conscience is a very dangerous thing. The scriptures tell of a time when the people of Israel did just that and it was a time of great lawlessness, unrighteousness, and being far from God.

I don't see either of the cases that you presented having much hope in them apart from God's grace to save people despite our failings. And fortunately that is indeed what Christians believe is true about God, that he accepts our willingness to trust in him and his righteousness and counts it toward us so that his righteousness is applied to our lives.

Is this fair? No, it is not. But God's justice and human fairness are not the same thing, for his ways are not our ways.

And God does account people according to their deeds and heart(intentions)

So you say.

and God gives Heaven to whoever He wills regardless of our pre-conceived thoughts about who and who isn't going to Heaven or Hell

Again, so you say. And this time the Bible just happens to say the same thing. He does indeed will what he wills. And we can point to all the verses we want, God is still going to be God his way, not yours or mine.

I didn't bring this from myself , There are many verses in the Quran that confirm this also many Hadeeth - Sayings of the Prophet PBUH.

A book and collection of sayings that I don't think are near as authoritative as what I understand to be the Word of God.

Peace be to you

And to you as well.

 

[Ramadhan]

When I said: "If this is true, then it is a very good argument for not needing to become a Muslim." I was commenting on Muslom's statement: "In the End people will be Judged according to their deeds and intentions and not to which denomination of fanaticism they supported." I said what I said because if Muslom's statement is true, it in essence argues that it matters not whether one is Methodist, Lutheran, Protestant, Catholic, Christian, Sunni, Shi'a, Muslim, Rastafarian, or anything at all; all that matters is one deeds.

Again, GS came to the forum pretending he doesn't understand even the most basic teachings of Islam and twist other people's comments out of context. I read Muslom's statement again, it does NOT say that deeds and intentions are the ONLY things that will be judged and it does NOT say that deeds and intentions are the ONLY qualifications to determine our fate in the hereafter.

This is the qualification of those who will be among the fortunate ones, as has been repeatedly mentioned in the Qur'an: "Those who believe and do good deeds"

Intentions (niyat) and actions only cover the "do good deeds" part. And no, you are not among the believers if you are a methodist (because you worship a man as God), which is your professional church.

 

[May Ayob]

I said what I said because if Muslom's statement is true, it in essence argues that it matters not whether one is Methodist, Lutheran, Protestant, Catholic, Christian, Sunni, Shi'a, Muslim, Rastafarian, or anything at all; all that matters is one deeds.

Peace be to you

Islam is a Relgion and God is not
A Muslim can be destined to Hell fire whether they like it or not, Also a devoted worshipping Muslim can also be sentenced to Hell fire wether they like it or not, I , You The fellow Muslims, Christian, Jews ...etc Do not comprehend the Mind of our Creator.- This is one Point. Second If this is so true what you are saying then why in the Qura'n Does Jesus say when speaking to God in the day of Judgement about the people who used to worship him:
118. "If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if You forgive them, verily You, only You are the All*Mighty, the All*Wise."
Do you read the :and if You forgive them,
Forgiveness is also an option that Jesus PBUH requests.
But it is up to our Creator to decide who deserves to go to Heaven and who deserves to go to Hell
I'll just give another verse to show you that Diversity in religion and religious debates is not a commended deed or thing to do in Islam as it is only God who Judges in the Day of Judgement.

34. And for every nation We have appointed religious ceremonies, that they may mention the Name of Allâh over the beast of cattle that He has given them for food. And your Ilâh (God) is One Ilâh (God Allâh), so you must submit to Him Alone (in Islâm). And (O Muhammad SAW) give glad tidings to the Mukhbitin [those who obey Allâh with humility and are humble from among the true believers of Islâmic Monotheism],
118. And if your Lord had so willed, He could surely have made mankind one Ummah [nation or community (following one religion only i.e. Islâm)], but they will not cease to disagree,-
93. And had Allâh willed, He could have made you (all) one nation, but He sends astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. But you shall certainly be called to account for what you used to do.

62. Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in Allâh and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve .

You Me and anyone else is not a Qualified Judge for these things. It is better to compete in Good. and Have Trust in the Mercy and Justice of Our Lord.

Is this fair? No, it is not. But God's justice and human fairness are not the same thing, for his ways are not our ways.

So , in God's eyes it is fair to make an innocent scapegoat to be responsible of my selfish and foolish sins , rather than Respecting our Creator and Honestly admit my faults, mistakes and sins. I do not think I would ever want to even imagine God in this perspective.

So you say.

No I don't say, The Quran says and the Prophet PBUH says. Why is it so hard to believe

A book and collection of sayings that I don't think are near as authoritative as what I understand to be the Word of God.

With all due to respect, But a book that was fabricated and stripped out of it's orginal essence is considered to be a Word of God and Another Book which has never been mis-qouted or corrupted isn't. I do not deny the Legitimacy of the Bible , The Qura'n mentions it as the Book which is true that is was the word of God and does still have some bits of the Original inspiration but even some of your fellow Christian experties denied that it was fully the Word of God.

Peace be to you

 

[Grace Seeker]

Peace be to you

Islam is a Relgion and God is not

Yes, I understand this. The same could be said of every religion. They are in fact religions. God is not a religion. God is not Muslim, Christian, or any other religion. God is God. I have no argument with this.

My argument remains that Muslom's logic produces a conclusion that it matters not whether one is Muslim or not. Perhaps it really doesn't matter to followers of Islam whether a person is or is not a Muslim. I thought it did. I'm frequently told that my good deeds aren't enough because I happen to believe in what you call shirk. But if, as Muslom claimed, what matters is one's deeds. Then what matters is one's deeds, not shirk. If you object to that conclusion, then you also object to Muslom's statement for that is in fact the logical conclusion of what was said.

So , in God's eyes it is fair to make an innocent scapegoat to be responsible of my selfish and foolish sins , rather than Respecting our Creator and Honestly admit my faults, mistakes and sins. I do not think I would ever want to even imagine God in this perspective.

What innocent scapegoat? Jesus is innocent, but not a scapegoat. Remember that thing called shirk you accuse us Christians of. We believe that God isn't sending a scapegoat, God is himself suffering to redeem us back for himself. Yes, he pays the price for our sin.

If you don't like the idea of God being one who suffers as a result of our sin, tell me does anyone at all pay the price of sin in the Islamic understanding of salvation. If one has sinned against God (and ultimately any sinner against any aspect of God's creation is ultimately a sin against God in addition to any others that may also be effected by that sin), and then God forgives it. Who is injured/effected by the sin and who pays for it? Real forgivenss would include the cancelling of any debt or obligation that might be owed as a result of the sin (that or it isn't real forgivness). So, if people don't pay the price of sin, and if sin still has some sort of cost to it, then the only one left to bear that cost is God. Again, you may not like that idea, but it is the logical conclusion of the Islamic argument regarding forgiveness.

So, whether we are talking Christianity or Islam, both have God bearing the cost of human sins.

No I don't say, The Quran says and the Prophet PBUH says. Why is it so hard to believe

It's hard to believe because I don't have the same confidence in the Qur'an that you do.

With all due to respect, But a book that was fabricated and stripped out of it's orginal essence is considered to be a Word of God and Another Book which has never been mis-qouted or corrupted isn't. I do not deny the Legitimacy of the Bible , The Qura'n mentions it as the Book which is true that is was the word of God and does still have some bits of the Original inspiration but even some of your fellow Christian experties denied that it was fully the Word of God.

As I don't see the Qur'an the same way you do, you obviously don't see the Bible the same way that I do.

Peace be to you

Indeed, though we continue to disagree over what we do and do not have confidence in and have different perspectives on the best source for truth about God, it changes nothing in my wish that you might indeed find the peace that you seek.

 

[May Ayob]

Indeed, though we continue to disagree over what we do and do not have confidence in and have different perspectives on the best source for truth about God, it changes nothing in my wish that you might indeed find the peace that you seek.

I also hope you find the Peace and Grace that you are seeking

 

[M.I.A.]

Uh...wasn't that an angel, not God?

a most common answer to a question about where god is etc etc
is that his "knowledge" is everywhere.

its a point of conjecture but i could draw the comparison that his angels are his knowledge manifest.

it gives a strange view to christian beliefs of inspired writing.

although there is no proof and much room for debate.

the prophet mohammed pbuh was the seal of the prophets, meaning no further revelation of scripture or expansion on the religion we follow.

but does that mean that allah swt's knowledge is no longer here? no it does not.

a know its a topsy turvy analogy but its something to help keep an open mind about things.

feel free to deconstruct.