[Danah]

Asalam Alykom Wa Rahmat Allah Wa Barakatoh,

Peace be upon you all

To me a secular and an atheist or may a disbeliever seem somehow similar since they both dont accept the idea of God existence.......but I think there is a deeper differences between them


Can anyone clarify that to me please?

 

[Trumble]

There are a multitude of meanings of the word 'secular', which doesn't help. In general terms, though, 'secular' generally just means 'not religious', or having no particular religious affiliation, particularly in regard to social and governmental institutions. That doesn't imply atheism or even agnosticism. One can be secular without being an atheist (and Buddhists, among others, can be atheists without being secular!).

 

[Danah]

^ so, do a secular mainly have the belief of God? or admit the existence of God?

 

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


A secular person in the political level and generally speaking today would be someone who wants separation from religion to political rulings. i.e. they don't want anything to do with religion being a part of the laws etc.

We as Muslims believe that Allah is the Law Maker and therefore Muslims are not secular, or atleast should not be.


Some christians could be secularists today while believing in God, so they just want separation from religion and state.

 

[Strzelecki]

Secular means one does not acknowledge God - not necessarily that they don't believe.

Though, I don't see how a 'secular believer' is not a contradiction in terms.

 

[ardianto]

^ so, do a secular mainly have the belief of God? or admit the existence of God?

Yes.
Secularist have the believe of God and admit the existence of God. They have a religion, but they dont live under the religion laws. (In Islam is a Sharia laws)

 

[Keltoi]

From my point of view, I consider myself a secularist. That doesn't mean I'm an athiest at all. It simply means I do not wish a particular religious denomination to be the "official" religion of my country. Nor do I wish a church to have any power on the political level. As someone pointed out, it is the wish that government and religion remain separate.

 

[Danah]

so from all the above replies......I came to..

:salamext:

A secular person in the political level and generally speaking today would be someone who wants separation from religion to political rulings. i.e. they don't want anything to do with religion being a part of the laws etc.

Wa Alykom Asalam,

so is it like they want to live their life on their own way?
like they accept the political ruling which have nothing to do with religions.

but in all cases religious laws are all encourage to fairness, so are those people want to apply fairness in their own ways....to me it seems that no matter what they do they will come to many laws taking its rules from religions and nothing but follow them.

brother, can you please give me an example for a law where it can goes with religion and how secular can have it striped from religion

that will make it much more clear to me.

Secular means one does not acknowledge God - not necessarily that they don't believe.

Yes.
Secularist have the believe of God and admit the existence of God. They have a religion, but they dont live under the religion laws. (In Islam is a Sharia laws)

so there are two types of secular, one believe while the other don't?
for those who believe in God, if they don't like the religion to be applied in laws, how they worship God?

 

[Danah]

From my point of view, I consider myself a secularist. That doesn't mean I'm an athiest at all. It simply means I do not wish a particular religious denomination to be the "official" religion of my country. Nor do I wish a church to have any power on the political level. As someone pointed out, it is the wish that government and religion remain separate.

well, then the above question in my last post is going to you

how you worship God? I mean do you consider it as something u do individually? without caring whether religion rules are applied in the society or not?

and what you meant by church not involved in political level.....can you be more specific please in pointing out some kinds of political issues you dont wish the church to be involved in?

 

[alcurad]

there is need for some secularism in even 'Islamic' governments-whatever these are- so that a priest caste doesn't appear. after the prophet's passing away no one has the authority of religion, rather it is how close we follow the prophet's footsteps. the thing called 'Shari3a' is not entirely in agreement with islam as the prophet preached it, rather it also contains rulings and laws of the people the muslims conquered and so on.
there are many sects within Islam, there is no way they'll all agree to one sects rulings in all matters.
you could-arbitrarily nonetheless- say there are two types of secularism, partial and absolute/complete. partial secularism is not always bad, rather so called 'Islamic' theorists rejected it along with everything that seemed western.

 

[alcurad]

how you worship God? I mean do you consider it as something u do individually? without caring whether religion rules are applied in the society or not?

SAYA san, how would you define worshiping allah in any context other than it being a personal choice?

 

[Woodrow]

It is illogical to try to compare the words secular and religion sort of like trying to compare an apple with the concept of poverty.

 

[Keltoi]

well, then the above question in my last post is going to you

how you worship God? I mean do you consider it as something u do individually? without caring whether religion rules are applied in the society or not?

In a secular country there is nothing hindering my ability to worship God. A secular nation is what gives Muslims, Hindus, etc the same right to worship freely as I do. While civil laws may not be perfect, they are very closely aligned with my religious beliefs about right and wrong.

and what you meant by church not involved in political level.....can you be more specific please in pointing out some kinds of political issues you dont wish the church to be involved in?

I don't wish any religious denomination to have the power to dictate the religious lives of others. Religious freedom is important to me.

 

[Trumble]

In a secular country there is nothing hindering my ability to worship God. A secular nation is what gives Muslims, Hindus, etc the same right to worship freely as I do. While civil laws may not be perfect, they are very closely aligned with my religious beliefs about right and wrong.

I don't wish any religious denomination to have the power to dictate the religious lives of others. Religious freedom is important to me.

That has always been the principle reason for the establishment of 'secular' governments. Historically it's not that people wanted to reject God, or religious rules, so much as the fact that there were considerable (and not infrequently bloody) disagreements as to what God's Will is and what the correct religious rules actually were. In Europe and the United States such disagreements weren't even usually between different religions (or 'believers' and atheists), but between different Christian denominations. A secular system was just the best way for people to get along. Most of the principal moral laws of such systems are firmly cemented in common religious traditions, anyway.

 

[Danah]

thanks for the all above explanations
but I am still waiting for any examples of secular laws....

 

[Trumble]

but I am still waiting for any examples of secular laws....

An example; a law forbidding driving at more than 70mph on a motorway is a secular law. While both religious and non-religious people may agree, or disagree, with the necessity for such a law, there is no religious requirement for such a law.

Another example, a law that guarantees religious freedom, and the right of citizens to attend any place of worship they wish is a secular law. A law that requires a particular form of religious observance because the state religion requires it is a religious law. Most of the most important laws, such as those forbidding murder, rape, theft, etc. are actually both religious and secular laws.

 

[Danah]

Most of the most important laws, such as those forbidding murder, rape, theft, etc. are actually both religious and secular laws.

exactly, that what I meant by the disability of separate religion than laws sometimes. thanks Trumble

I am looking for a law that can be can be used as a religious law, then it can be adjusted to be a secular law

 

[KAding]

exactly, that what I meant by the disability of separate religion than laws sometimes. thanks Trumble

I am looking for a law that can be can be used as a religious law, then it can be adjusted to be a secular law

I am not sure I understand what you mean exactly. But take social laws regarding welfare. An Islamic state might introduce laws which force its citizens to pay Zakat, in order to redistribute it among the poor. It would be a law directly based on religious scripture and the Zakat would be levied based on religious rules. Say the secularist "take over". At one point or another the Zakat could be abolished or replaced by a secular system, one that is not based on religious scripture, but that would in practice be similar. The amount of 'tax' levied might change though, since it is no longer religious scholars who decide how much need to be paid or by whom, but it has now become the prerogative, i.e. right, of the government to work out these details. Secularism is essentially based on the assumption that human law makers make the laws and not Allah.

An example of laws which show an obvious disconnect between religious laws and secular laws is an issue like gay marriage. Islamic law forbids it, this is unlikely to change. Law makers or leaders in an Islamic state simply cannot decide to allow it. Secular law makers, however, do not have to keep in mind these inherent restrictions on their work, which means that law makers in a secular state have more freedom when writing laws. Again though, even in a secular system most law makers may be religious and decide to not implement a certain law, but there is nothing inherent in the system that would stop them from doing it. Another example: many countries with a secular system and a Christian tradition nevertheless prohibit shops from opening on Sunday. "Secularism" doesn't say "shops have to be open on Sunday", it just says "we have no opinion on whether shops should be open on Sunday or whatever other day". On the other hand, like alcurad already pointed out, in a religious state there usually is some kind of clerical oversight. The Council of Guardians in Iran, for example, are supposed to double check that every law passed isn't in one way or another in violations of Allah's wishes.

Note that not all religions have a legal element equivalent to the Sha'ria law in Islam, so it isn't as big an issue to believers of many other religions as it might be to Muslims.

 

[KAding]

there is need for some secularism in even 'Islamic' governments-whatever these are- so that a priest caste doesn't appear. after the prophet's passing away no one has the authority of religion, rather it is how close we follow the prophet's footsteps. the thing called 'Shari3a' is not entirely in agreement with islam as the prophet preached it, rather it also contains rulings and laws of the people the muslims conquered and so on.
there are many sects within Islam, there is no way they'll all agree to one sects rulings in all matters.
you could-arbitrarily nonetheless- say there are two types of secularism, partial and absolute/complete. partial secularism is not always bad, rather so called 'Islamic' theorists rejected it along with everything that seemed western.

Very interesting alcurad. I always wondered in a pure Islamic state, who decides what Islam teaches exactly? I always had the impression that, indeed, this is not the work of a "priest caste", but rather that the community as a whole - led by a pious leader - decide what Allah teaches exactly. Is this correct?

 

[justahumane]

Asalam Alykom Wa Rahmat Allah Wa Barakatoh,

Peace be upon you all

To me a secular and an atheist or may a disbeliever seem somehow similar since they both dont accept the idea of God existence.......but I think there is a deeper differences between them


Can anyone clarify that to me please?

Well U may be wrong. However meaning of this word changes with place and envoirnment. Secular is not always atheist but an atheist has to be secular. To clarify this, I m secular, and that doesnt mean that I dont believe in ALLAH/GOD. That only means that while making my decisions on most of topics, I dont bring religion into consideration. To be more clear, if I have to make any friend, I wont see whether he is a hindu or of any other community. I will only consider who is going to be a good friend of mine.

And same goes with an atieist,coz he doesnt even believe in GOD, so religion doesnt matter for him.

Just like u have a pair of word, Secular and Atheist. In India we too have a pair of words, thats Secular and Communal. Like we view BJP as a communal party and congress and co. as secular parties. That doesnt means that congress ppls doesnt believe in ALLAH/GOD. There are ppls from all religions as its members. And same goes with other muslim countries who are secular. do U think that politicians of Turky or Egypt are not muslims or believers? Yes they are, but coz they are secular nation, they cant base their decisions on religious bias. Thats it.