When is a Muslim not a Muslim?

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I thought I knew the answer to that question from what I had learnt here but after a recent conversation with a Muslim friend of a friend I am now not sure. Is it simply a matter of complying with the 5 pillars of Islam? The man in question accepted and rejected any verse of the Qu’ran, any hadith and any aspect of the sunnah as fitted with his personal beliefs. He wouldn’t even commit himself to agreeing that every verse of the Qu’ran was the word of God rather than the words of Muhammad. I found myself suggesting (from what I have learnt here) that with such beliefs he could not legitimately call himself Muslim but when he asked why not I was stumped.
 
Thinker said:
The man in question accepted and rejected any verse of the Qu’ran, any hadith and any aspect of the sunnah as fitted with his personal beliefs. He wouldn’t even commit himself to agreeing that every verse of the Qu’ran was the word of God rather than the words of Muhammad.
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If such man denied a word from the Quran to be truly inspired from God then he chose his fate...

Holy Quran [2:85]
Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? but what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life?- and on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For Allah is not unmindful of what ye do.
 
I think you aught to show ur friend that verse above. He cant call himself a Muslim and reject bits of the Qu'raan or any part of Islam...

Allah also says when you accept Islam as your religion it should be wholeheartedly...not half and half.
 
When you stop praying,don't read the Quran,don't remember Allah and do not fulfill the pillars then you are a non believer making you not a muslim.
 
:sl:

Every Muslim knows that the key to Paradise is the statment, "There is none worthy of worship except Allah."

we should all realize that all of the Quran and Hadith complement each other and explain one another. If we study the verses of the Quran and the Hadith of the Prophet (pbuh), we will find that the conditions of the shahadah are seven, eight or nine in number depending on how we look at them. It is important that all of us make sure that we are meeting these conditions in our own lives and in our own testimony of faith. We must do our best to satisfy these conditions before it is too late and our testimony will be no avail whatsoever. for all of us to look to ourselves and to make sure that we are actually meeting these conditions so that, by Allah's mercy, the doors to Paradise will be open for us by our key of la ilaha illa-llah.

If no one follows that of above, then they are not Muslims. Allah Ta'ala knows best!
 
The man in question says that to call himslef a Muslim he is only requried recite and believe the shahada and nothing more (other than the other 4 pillars)

“There is no god but God, Muhammad is the Messenger of God"

I have seen lots of posts here saying that Muslims should do this and not do that where does it say you are no longer a Muslim if you don’t do those things?
 
Thinker said:
The man in question says that to call himslef a Muslim he is only requried recite and believe the shahada and nothing more (other than the other 4 pillars)

“There is no god but God, Muhammad is the Messenger of God"

I have seen lots of posts here saying that Muslims should do this and not do that where does it say you are no longer a Muslim if you don’t do those things?
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I'm not clear what he is saying exactly, so I'll ask a simple question. Does he reject 5 pillars of Islam?
 
What he says is not true. A muslim is a muslim by faith and action, there are many ahadees that tell the tales of Muslims leaving the fold of islam if they do certain actions ( sins) because they no do befit the person who has the fear of Allah in his heart.

A muslim is one who loves and fears Allah rfom the core of his heart and accepts Allah as his creator and obeys His word in Quran and Hadees.

some muslims sin, no doubt, they momentarily get distracted from their duty to Allah, but they ahve firm belief, then Allah guides them back to virtue, to His path, but if the faith is corrupted then the person is no longer a muslims even though he may pray five times as that would not be to Allah but either out of a daily habbit or some other such excuse..

hence your friend who's faith is not just incomplete but non existant , may no longer be a muslim.. and Allah knows best.

Example is this:

When you take your parents to be your parens you fear them of finding out of you doing things they wont like and avoid them, you love them and you obey them generally.. thats because you accept them that they are your parents seeing all that thye have done for youa nd always seeing thema round alhough you may Not even have witnessed your mother giving birth to you, you dont remember...

Similar way Allah ahs made us, he has given us everything, and He is our Lord, if we KNOW that and accept it, we could at ealst be fearful of Him on the same leve, it being a bit differnt than parents as you cannot see Him , but we surely can feel him and what He gives us is much more than parents as our parents have no control on our illnesses, susbtainance, marriage, life, death, disease and health...

When one realises this, he is a muslim, otherwise..he is not.
May Allah guide your freind, ameen.
 
Chuck said:
I'm not clear what he is saying exactly, so I'll ask a simple question. Does he reject 5 pillars of Islam?
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No - that's his point, he accepts that but says that because he accepts the 5 pillars does not mean that he must accept every verse of the Qu'ran or follow the sunnah.
 
Thinker said:
No - that's his point, he accepts that but says that because he accepts the 5 pillars does not mean that he must accept every verse of the Qu'ran or follow the sunnah.
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Normally anyone who accepts the 5 pillars is a muslim. 5 Pillars includes following Quran and sunnah. But with Quran and Sunnah it gets complicated, because people differ on interpretation of verses and what is sunnah and what is not.

Is he rejecting the verses or the interpretation of verses? Is he completely rejecting the sunnah?
 
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A person who claims even something as little as a single letter of the Quran as being not from God can NOT be a Muslim (unless he can successfully plead ignorance).

I can't find the exact references for you right now but Allah Himself told us that He will protect the Quran from corruption, and if a person claims otherwise he has belied God and to claim that God lied or failed is disbelief without a shadow of a doubt.

Islam is not only about the 5 pillars. There are also the 6 pillars of faith that a person must accept entirely, and that belief in God, the angels, the books (including the Quran) the messengers, the Day of Judgements and predestination.
 
Malaikah said:
A person who claims even something as little as a single letter of the Quran as being not from God can NOT be a Muslim (unless he can successfully plead ignorance).

I can't find the exact references for you right now but Allah Himself told us that He will protect the Quran from corruption, and if a person claims otherwise he has belied God and to claim that God lied or failed is disbelief without a shadow of a doubt.

Islam is not only about the 5 pillars. There are also the 6 pillars of faith that a person must accept entirely, and that belief in God, the angels, the books (including the Quran) the messengers, the Day of Judgements and predestination.
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Sister there is no need of 6th pillar, first one is shahada which includes Quran and Sunnah. Rest of the pillars are from Quran and Sunnah too.
 
I'm not sure what you mean brother but these are six pillars that are mentioned in the hadith where the prophet explains what faith is.
 
Chuck said:
Sister there is no need of 6th pillar, first one is shahada which includes Quran and Sunnah. Rest of the pillars are from Quran and Sunnah too.
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The first pillar of Islam consists of 6 sub pillars of belief.

Faith in the sense of belief is based on six principles, which are mentioned in the hadeeth of Jibreel (peace be upon him), when he questioned the Prophet (saaws) who said: “Faith means to believe in Allaah, His angels, His Books, His Messengers, the Last Day, and the Divine Decree, both good and bad.” (Agreed upon).
 
Thinker said:
Where in the 5 pillars does it say that Muslims must follow the sunnah?
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I assume you still haven't understood the concept of hadeeth?

Check my last post, the first pillar of faith requires you believe in Allah and His books. This subsequently means to believe in the Qur'an and Allah says in many verses in the Qur'an to obey the Messenger.

Allah says:

"What the Messanger teaches you, take it; and what he forbids you, avoid doing it."(59:7)

And He says:

"But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction." (4:65)

And He also says:

"It is not fitting for a Believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, he is indeed on a clearly wrong Path." (33:36)

There are other verses which oblige the Muslim to accept the full authority of the Prophet.
 
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Greetings,

In addition to the above, it can be understood from the first pillar, the testimony of faith:

“There is no deity worthy of being worshipped except Allaah, and there is no one worthy to be followed except Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)."

Believing that Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) is the Messenger of Allaah (swt) includes fully accepting his message and following his Sunnah.
 
Malaikah said:
I'm not sure what you mean brother but these are six pillars that are mentioned in the hadith where the prophet explains what faith is.
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There is no sixth pillar. As the brother above mentioned first pillar has sub sections. According to Kharijites sixth pillar was Jihad but that has always been unapproved by mainstream scholars.

I think other brs has explained it well, but I'll add my 2 cents.

(1) shahad is proclaiming that you believe in one God and his messenger and you will follow that messenger. That is following Quran and Sunnah, if it is not that then tell me what it is then?

(2) 5 pillars are the basic tenets derived from Quran, they are not outside Quran and thus sunnah. A person cannot take them in isolation against Quran and sunnah, this would be absurd :blind::giggling:

5 pillars are what they are as they are in Quran; all the 5 pillars are there in the Quran. There is no word shahada per se in Quran, but it means basic Islamic creed. That is what it is "Islamic creed".

As for Thinker's question whether that person is muslim or not, well I've encountered thinker before, s/he has a habit of taking thinkings out of context and unnecessarily argumentative. And I think, s/he is taking this thread into that direction too. Thats why I asked:
(1) Whether that guy is rejecting verses or certain interpretations of them?
(2) Whether he is rejecting sunnah competely or he accepts sunnah in general but doesn't believe or follow certain things in sunnah?

First part no muslim would do but second part is whole different ball game.

For example:
A) Allegedly 'wife beating' verse. There are certain people I know who doesn't accept that interpretation. They say word has two meanings and according to sunnah its meaning is not 'beat' but 'separate.' Because thats what Prophet (pbuh) did instead of beating his wife (wives). He (pbuh) separated when he had some argument going on with his wives.

Some other I know take its meaning as beat but they have reservation with the verse.

B) Some people have disagreements what is sunnah and what is not. For example, according to some people eating with hands is not sunnah or applicable as sunnah, just as riding a camel is not sunnah or applicable as sunnah.

However, they people still believe in the Quran as whole and sunnah in general even though they have disagreements or/and reservations over certain interpretations of verses or/and certain things in sunnah.

I wouldn't take these people out of Islam as these are gray areas and even Islamic scholars had/have differing opinions about them.

I hope this makes clear.
 
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ALlah knows best wat he is...Maybe he's ignorant. How can he reject the Quraan?....That's like Rejecting Islam.
 
Chuck, i'm sure that's what the sister meant as she was talking about the pillar of Faith.
 

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