When was Hazrat Isa Nabi S.A.W. born as on?

[tawheed.sayyid]

Assalamu Alaikum everyone in this forum. I would like to know if we have received any proofs or reference as to when Hazrat Isa Nabi S.A.W. was born?

 

[Abz2000]

When the sheep were let out to graze at night - (something which is done during the summer heat when woolly critters begin to get weak, dizzy, claustrophobic, irritable, and loud, - in the cattle pen) according to the second section of what remains of the bible.
In winter- we have to insulate the pens and put sacks under the animals and even cover newborns with a makeshift jacket from a sack with ties. Taking them outside at night on Dec 25 is ridiculous - ask ANY farmer if in doubt - even the chickens huddle together and start dying when the shepherd boy begins to slacken in keeping them warm in winter -and this is in a tropical bordering country which is generally considered as being hot, and where we wear t-shirts during the day even in dec-jan.

And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger … Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night” (Luke 2:7-8).

Dec. 25 wasn’t always considered Jesus’ birth date. In a U.S. News and World Report article titled “In Search of Christmas,” Joseph Sheler wrote: “Lacking any scriptural pointers to Jesus’ birthday, early Christian teachers suggested dates all over the calendar. Clement … picked November 18. Hippolytus … figured Christ must have been born on a Wednesday … An anonymous document believed to have been written in North Africa around A.D. 243, placed Jesus’s birth on March 28” (Dec. 23, 1996, p. 58).

Although it’s difficult to determine the first time anyone celebrated Dec. 25 as Christmas Day, historians are in general agreement that it was sometime during the fourth century. This is an amazingly late date! Think about it—this means that Christmas, which most consider Jesus’ birthday, wasn’t observed by the Roman church until about 300 years after Christ’s lifetime on earth!

Christmas can’t be traced back to either the teachings or the practices of the earliest Christians. That sounds almost impossible, doesn’t it? But it’s true.

So why did the Roman church adopt Dec. 25 as the time to celebrate Jesus’ birth? The reason His birthday is celebrated at that time of year is that religious leaders in that era wanted to give a pagan festival held on Dec. 25 a name change to make it easier for pagans to convert to Christianity!

The Encyclopedia Americana makes this clear: “In the fifth century, the Western Church ordered it [Christ’s birth] to be observed forever on the day of the old Roman feast of the birth of Sol [the sun god], as no certain knowledge of the day of Christ’s birth existed” (1944 edition, “Christmas”).

The reason for this confusion is not surprising. The Bible doesn’t actually spell out the exact date of Jesus’ birth. What’s more, we find zero mentions of any celebrations being held honoring Christ’s birthday by the early Church.

Full article linked below:


https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/when-was-jesus-born

 

[Ümit]

When the sheep were let out to graze at night - (something which is done during the summer heat when woolly critters begin to get weak, dizzy, claustrophobic, irritable, and loud, - in the cattle pen) according to the second section of what remains of the bible.
In winter- we have to insulate the pens and put sacks under the animals and even cover newborns with a makeshift jacket from a sack with ties. Taking them outside at night on Dec 25 is ridiculous - ask ANY farmer if in doubt - even the chickens huddle together and start dying when the shepherd boy begins to slacken in keeping them warm in winter -and this is in a tropical bordering country which is generally considered as being hot, and where we wear t-shirts during the day even in dec-jan.

And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger … Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night” (Luke 2:7-8).



Full article linked below:


https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/when-was-jesus-born

Sorry, but I find the presented evidence to show that Isa as wasn't born in late December very poor. Let me explain myself.


This article is written by someone from Cincinnati, Ohio where the winters are pretty cold. this guy has no idea what the climate in Judea is like at all.

I've spend the last 2 weeks of 2017 in Alanya, (south coast of Turkey). During the day, it was around 16 - 18 degrees centegrade. During night it was a bit colder, but nowhere near freezing. I could still go outside sit on the balcony of my hotel in pyjamas and a blanket and watch the sea at night.
only 2 days of the 2 weeks were cold and rainy...but still way above the freezing point.

in 2007 I went to hadj. I remember that I have been travelling back to Europe during new years eve. Hadj was 4 weeks...so it was almost the whole december.
the first 10 days I was in Medina. the rest of the time in Mecca. Both Mecca and Medina were pretty hot during the day. somewhere above 25 degrees. night time in Medina was a bit chilly...around 16 degrees. But again, only a small blanket was enough to keep me warm at night outside. Mecca was nice and warm during the night...you did not need a blanket or whatsoever...it always was warm.

So Judea is somewhere in between Alanya and Medina and is relatively close to the coast. So I find it highly unlikely that it would be freezing cold at night.

with this I am not defending that Isa as WAS born on Dec. 26. The only thing I am saying is that the presented evidence to disprove Dec 25th as Isa as's birthday is not sufficient.

 

[sister herb]

When thinking how cold nights were we should also notice changes with the climate. Was climate similar about 2000 years ago in those areas like it is today or have there been some happenings near of this time which might have changed it?

By the way, are we sure about the year or time when it happened? Christians say it was about 2018 years ago but is this source reliable?

 

[Ümit]

When thinking how cold nights were we should also notice changes with the climate. Was climate similar about 2000 years ago in those areas like it is today or have there been some happenings near of this time which might have changed it?

By the way, are we sure about the year or time when it happened? Christians say it was about 2018 years ago but is this source reliable?

I do not think the climate can change significantly in just 2000 years of time. that is too short for a major climate change.
and I do not know whether the year of time is accurate, but even if it happened 3000 years ago, this would be too little time for a climate change.

 

[sister herb]

I didn´t mean similar major climate change like we are talking nowadays but climate has changed several times during last thousands of years. Here have been colder and warmer periods. Kind of period might has taken hundreds of years and then changed again.

 

[tawheed.sayyid]

Could you mention me the source where Christians say it's just 2018 years ago or something like that? It would be really helpful. However, I do side with you regarding the climate change. Couldn't completely different than it was 2000 years before but yes slightly different.

- - - Updated - - -

When the sheep were let out to graze at night - (something which is done during the summer heat when woolly critters begin to get weak, dizzy, claustrophobic, irritable, and loud, - in the cattle pen) according to the second section of what remains of the bible.
In winter- we have to insulate the pens and put sacks under the animals and even cover newborns with a makeshift jacket from a sack with ties. Taking them outside at night on Dec 25 is ridiculous - ask ANY farmer if in doubt - even the chickens huddle together and start dying when the shepherd boy begins to slacken in keeping them warm in winter -and this is in a tropical bordering country which is generally considered as being hot, and where we wear t-shirts during the day even in dec-jan.

And she brought forth her firstborn Son, and wrapped Him in swaddling cloths, and laid Him in a manger … Now there were in the same country shepherds living out in the fields, keeping watch over their flock by night” (Luke 2:7-8).



Full article linked below:


https://www.ucg.org/the-good-news/when-was-jesus-born

Thank you so much for clearing my doubts. This is indeed a valuable answer. May Allah bless you and the others in the thread that took their time to answer this question!

 

[Abz2000]

Sorry, but I find the presented evidence to show that Isa as wasn't born in late December very poor. Let me explain myself.


This article is written by someone from Cincinnati, Ohio where the winters are pretty cold. this guy has no idea what the climate in Judea is like at all.

I've spend the last 2 weeks of 2017 in Alanya, (south coast of Turkey). During the day, it was around 16 - 18 degrees centegrade. During night it was a bit colder, but nowhere near freezing. I could still go outside sit on the balcony of my hotel in pyjamas and a blanket and watch the sea at night.
only 2 days of the 2 weeks were cold and rainy...but still way above the freezing point.

in 2007 I went to hadj. I remember that I have been travelling back to Europe during new years eve. Hadj was 4 weeks...so it was almost the whole december.
the first 10 days I was in Medina. the rest of the time in Mecca. Both Mecca and Medina were pretty hot during the day. somewhere above 25 degrees. night time in Medina was a bit chilly...around 16 degrees. But again, only a small blanket was enough to keep me warm at night outside. Mecca was nice and warm during the night...you did not need a blanket or whatsoever...it always was warm.

So Judea is somewhere in between Alanya and Medina and is relatively close to the coast. So I find it highly unlikely that it would be freezing cold at night.

with this I am not defending that Isa as WAS born on Dec. 26. The only thing I am saying is that the presented evidence to disprove Dec 25th as Isa as's birthday is not sufficient.

Thanks for the input, the mention of "freezing cold" was more an emphasis on very cold rather than a reference to literal sub-zero temperatures, such as when a person says "i'm boiling" as a way of describing the discomfort of the heat they feel even though they don't usually go much above 37'C.

It has been around 15-16'C for the past 3 days here in Sylhet -the streets are quiet and people are wearing multiple layers and turning their gas cooker burners up overnight due to lack of heating (the emphasis here is usually on cooling), i would also go up on the roof the first winter in a t-shirt, jeans and sandals, something that is unthinkable after 5 years and the animals too which are familiar only with their surrounding climate are adjusted to the heat more than the cold,

I can't easily make a direct comparison since the temperatures vary widely - 13'C in tel aviv, 11'C in sylhet, 8'C in Riyad, 8'C in JERUSALEM dipping to near 5'C before the sun comes back out, 7'C in London, and 6'C in new york....

To get an idea of whether it was too different 2,000 years ago, it may help if we go to more reliable sources 1,500 years ago, where we find that they were wrapping up in blankets as shawls when out of the house in order to keep warm, ĺighting fires for warmth was a common practice, this is even mentioned in the Quran as being a convenience for the denizens of the desert.


I don't claim to know, just providing sources quoting biblical statements which can be verified online, and biblical statements are usually sufficient for the people who claim it as being authentic, who happen to usually be the people who claim that it was in the middle of winter (when it usually snows in europe and russia).

Please ask a person with experience in cattle herding and shepherding if they would take their animals to graze in the fields on the night of December the 24th if in doubt, coz we've had newborn cattle and their mothers die of cold due to negligence and lack of quick thinking on part of the simple shepherd boys and have begun to implement the practice where newborns and their mothers get a jacket made of sackcloth to wear in winter.

From:

ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR
Resources for applied ethology

CATTLE.

......
The herd’s day involves maintenance behaviour: standing, walking, lying, feeding, drinking, self-grooming, allogrooming, agonistic behaviour and ruminating (Mitlohner et al., 2001).

Grazing is affected by temperature. In very high temperatures cattle will graze predominantly at night
(Krysl et al., 1993).

Cattle accustomed to a rotational system of paddock allocation will graze faster than cattle that are leftin paddocks for longer periods, they will also tolerate lower feed supply, knowing that feed will be available in the next paddock in the rotation (Krysl et al., 1993).

Full article:
https://www.animalbehaviour.net/cattle/

 

[JustTime]

Does it really matter

 

[azc]

https://rcg.org/realtruth/articles/169-ttooc.html?_e_pi_=7,PAGE_ID10,6193161403

 

[Ümit]

Does it really matter

For you it does not matter at all. for everybody else who find this subject interesting, yes it really matters.
Personally, I find this question a bit nasty. If everyone thought like that, we would only focus on what really mattered...no one would investigate stuff and we would not develop much.

Thanks to people who are interested and investigate stuff which do not really matter at that time, we know what we know today in technology, chemistry, medical and other branches of science.

So I would say, be interested and curious. even if it seems like it doesn't really matters at first sight.

-----------------------------------------------------------

having that said, back to the topic.

I agree that available sources point to the direction of Christmas being originally pagan. I also agree that we do not know when Isa as was born...we have no clear evidence to point out the exact data.

The link provided by AZC (https://rcg.org/realtruth/articles/169-ttooc.html?_e_pi_=7,PAGE_ID10,6193161403) has roughly the same message as the first link with the McNeely guy...both provide arguments why it was unlikely that Jesus was born in late december because of the wheather and what we know about the customs of the shepherds mentioned in luke 2:8.

This sounds very plausible...
The thing I am objecting about...is that mcNeely has been adding something of his own to convince the reader...which makes the story less acceptable.
he speaks about:
"the weather being cold and miserable."
"since the weather would not have permitted” shepherds watching over their flocks in the fields at night."
"No Roman ruler would’ve had a census taken in winter when temperatures often dropped below freezing and roads were in poor condition."
and
"Taking a census under such conditions would have been self-defeating, since it would have been too difficult for Judean residents to travel to be counted. Travel back then wasn’t as easy as it is today. We live in an age of heated vehicles and snowplowed roads, but back then the vast majority of people walked wherever they needed to go."

From this, I get am impression of siberian conditions in Judea late december.
This may sound very minor...but it results in rejecting the whole column...just because these arguments are weak.

 

[Zzz_]

According to Christian sources: c. 7-2 BC Bethlehem, Judea, Roman Empire

According to Islam: Knowing the exact date of the birth of any of the Prophets is not possible, even our Prophet (blessings and peace of Allah be upon him).

 

[Desert]

I learned from christians that it was some sort of summer or when the weather gets warmer
and something in islam points out to me that Jesus was a dark skinned man...subhan Allah