Why do you believe? Part 1

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I may be viewing the question wrong. I see the question as being answerable from more then one view. Such as, I can answer in terms of why I believe it was right for me to revert to Islam or I can answer in terms of why I personaly believe Islam is true.

I have answered in terms of the first view several times in this forum on different threads. So this time I will answer in terms of Why I believe Islam to be true.

I believe God (swt) exists.

I believe God(swt) has revealed himself to mankind through th Propets, begining with Adam, to Noah, Abraham, Moses, Jesus, Mohammad and others known and unknown (Peace be upon all of them)

I believe God(swt) has sent us directions through the Prophets(PBUT) on what is expected of us and how we are to worship HIm.

I believe Mankind has failed to follow the word each time it was given and finaly God(swt) sent the Prophet Mohammad(pbuh) with the final prohecies revealed through the Qur'an

I believe the Qur'an to be the true word of God(swt) because:
Scientific findings do back up and verify things in it that could not have been known during the time of Muhammad.

Historicaly it is the only scripture that has remained intact and unchanged since it was revealed.

The coming of Mohammad was prophicized in the Jewish Torah, The Old Testement and in the New Testement.

It did not come as a replacement for what was previously revealed, it is simply a correction of the misconceptions that human error caused to happen to what was previously given.
 
By reading the qur'an :)

Of course there's a whole series of events that preceded me reading it and which might have influenced the way I interpreted my reading.
Hi Steve

Tell us more!
(As long as you don't get übercomplicated!) ;D

Peace.
 
Why do you believe? That's an extremely dificult question...

The truth.
... dealing with less obvious truths out of the fields of sociology, religion, psychology, ethics, etc …

I agree. You are a wise man. Well that’s what I believe.

Subjects such as belief and truth (if you ask me they are the same thing. one only believes something is true. However, that is only my belief), it is quite difficult to decide what is true and what is false.

Even science can be argued as false. Because science is ever evolving and changing, in 1000 years people may think completely different about things we consider true. The modern way of thinking is less then 500 years old; imagine how differently people may think in about 1000 years.

Questions like, “Who is truly right,” are almost impossible to answer. Because I think it is okay to eat pork, that does not mean you think it is okay. How do we know who’s right is right? We can’t determine that, and that is why some wars are started. Someone thinks there right is more right then the others. This is of course known as “ethnocentrism.” Forming bias opinions of others, deciding the way you do things is better then the others.

If you come to some kind of realization that right or wrong is the person’s opinion on how things should be done, is it safe to say there is no right or wrong?

This idea of what you believe to be to be right is different then what I believe to be right so there may be no right, this idea can be applied to all beliefs. I can almost say that no two people have the same religion. How could two people who live completely different lives interoperate there holy book the same? Just because it has the same text does not mean I will get the exact same thing out of it as anyone else.

Now comes a hard question. Because Hitler believed what he was doing was right, does that make it okay? Well I guess that all depends on what you thing is right and wrong. If there are so many different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong, how can God himself even judge us? If anyone should judge Hitler, it should be all of the Jews he killed. Moreover, if God does judge us, there is no way for us to know how he will judge us. Because I thing God thinks this is wrong, does not mean that is what God thinks is wrong. The only time someone should be judged is when someone’s right affects another’s wellbeing. However, that is only a belief, and I just pointed out, beliefs very from person to person.
 
ill-leat

Quoting from you:

"Now comes a hard question. Because Hitler believed what he was doing was right, does that make it okay? Well I guess that all depends on what you thing is right and wrong. If there are so many different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong, how can God himself even judge us? If anyone should judge Hitler, it should be all of the Jews he killed. Moreover, if God does judge us, there is no way for us to know how he will judge us. Because I thing God thinks this is wrong, does not mean that is what God thinks is wrong. The only time someone should be judged is when someone’s right affects another’s wellbeing. However, that is only a belief, and I just pointed out, beliefs very from person to person."

In order for there to be fair Judgement it means that God(swt) has or must have instilled in all of mankind a basic concept of good and evil. Unless a person is truly insane, there are things a person will know as not to be pleasing to God(swt). Perhaps they will be given a different name.

Now, with that said, it is fair for a person to be judged on what their inner self tells them is right. However, some people become so good at deceiving themselves and striving for self gratification that they establish themselves as their own god and worship only themselves. Although over time that becomes an ingrained belief it began as a consious effort to provide for their own wishes at any cost.

therefore I see no conflict in how God(swt) chooses to judge anyone. We know he will judge justly and fairly, that does not always mean equaly.
 
ill-leat

Quoting from you:

"Now comes a hard question. Because Hitler believed what he was doing was right, does that make it okay? Well I guess that all depends on what you thing is right and wrong. If there are so many different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong, how can God himself even judge us? If anyone should judge Hitler, it should be all of the Jews he killed. Moreover, if God does judge us, there is no way for us to know how he will judge us. Because I thing God thinks this is wrong, does not mean that is what God thinks is wrong. The only time someone should be judged is when someone’s right affects another’s wellbeing. However, that is only a belief, and I just pointed out, beliefs very from person to person."

In order for there to be fair Judgement it means that God(swt) has or must have instilled in all of mankind a basic concept of good and evil. Unless a person is truly insane, there are things a person will know as not to be pleasing to God(swt). Perhaps they will be given a different name.

Now, with that said, it is fair for a person to be judged on what their inner self tells them is right. However, some people become so good at deceiving themselves and striving for self gratification that they establish themselves as their own god and worship only themselves. Although over time that becomes an ingrained belief it began as a consious effort to provide for their own wishes at any cost.

therefore I see no conflict in how God(swt) chooses to judge anyone. We know he will judge justly and fairly, that does not always mean equaly.


There is a lot of assumption going on here.

Assumptions:
1 there is a God
2 that is the way God does things
3 there is any kind of judgment
4 there is a hereafter

My only real point is that there is no way to know anything. Because everyone has a different way of looking at things, it even furthers this complication. How can I say what I believe is truer then what you believe? I definitely can not. The same as how you can’t say that about me. There is no way to “truly” anything.

I personally think that Hitler deserves to burn. However, that is only what I think. Not necessarily true.

Those assumptions that I listed above very well may be the truth. However, they also may not be. How can anyone say what they believe is true, even if they feel it from the bottom of their heart, if someone else feels differently about the same thing from the bottom of their heart?

Most atheists “know” there is no God. However, most religious people “know” there is a God. Just because someone feels they are 100% right does not make them right.

Who can decide who is right? I can’t. The atheist can’t. The religious person can’t. Only the creator can, whoever he/she/it is, if he/she/it even exists.
 
@Glo
If you wish to know more, ther's a link in my profile that 'll bring you to a small summery of my religious search. And peopel can still email me at [email protected] for a copy of my book. It's far from complete, but I got most of the relevant things in there. And I am currently looking for feedback on that book.

@iLL_LeaT
If you come to some kind of realization that right or wrong is the person’s opinion on how things should be done, is it safe to say there is no right or wrong?
I wouldn't jump to conclusions like that. See the reason we cannot beyond reasonable doubt establish wheter or not pork is ok to eat has several resons. First of all we need to define "okay"; since we will most likely have difrent criterion. Then somewhere along the line our difrent religions will probably become relavant to. So in the end it's all a question of faith. And there's no way to know wich vieuw is accurate, which view is "right". But just because we are unable to establish that, doesn't mean that there is no true and untrue. All difrent defenitions of "true" and "reality" aside, there is a "real" wheter we are able to define it or not. well from a philosophical pov we can even deny that, but that seems rather pointless to persue if you ask me.
Now in a simular reasoning we could say there's a "real" set of morals and ethic. Wheter we can define them or not. And if we look at history we can see that at difrent places -independant of one another- there have always been universal morals that kept coming back.

Now comes a hard question. Because Hitler believed what he was doing was right, does that make it okay? Well I guess that all depends on what you thing is right and wrong. If there are so many different beliefs on what is right and what is wrong, how can God himself even judge us? If anyone should judge Hitler, it should be all of the Jews he killed. Moreover, if God does judge us, there is no way for us to know how he will judge us. Because I thing God thinks this is wrong, does not mean that is what God thinks is wrong. The only time someone should be judged is when someone’s right affects another’s wellbeing. However, that is only a belief, and I just pointed out, beliefs very from person to person.

Just because someoen was a victem, doesn't make him qualified to judge.
Allah on the other hand seems very qualified (of course as an agnostic you don't believe in Allah, but for the sake of argument if you accept his existance for a second, ..)
So what are these qualifications? Lets look at how Islam sees God:
1. He created everything. Without his the universe wouldn't exist. We wouldn't exist. there would be nothing to judge upon. We owe everything to him, in his mercy. Or to put it in 1337: all our base belongs to him :)
2. He has unlimited knowledge. He knows everything. Which paradigm is true. What is right, what is wrong. What our motivations are, what our intentions are. He knows every single thing that could be consider as relevant. Not only that, but he has the insight of measure these things from one another.
3. He is the most righteous (it's one of his 99 names)
4. He is the most mercifull (also one of his names)
Now this isn't a necesairy creterion for judgement. An neutral judgement can also be considered as righteous. But I think you see how this makes him a more desirable judge.

Who can decide who is right? I can’t. The atheist can’t. The religious person can’t. Only the creator can, whoever he/she/it is, if he/she/it even exists.
the point is not for us to decide what is right. Because the "right" doesn't need our acceptance. I'm sure you are familiar with: if a tree falls and nobody's there to hear it, does it make a sound? Does sound need an audiance to exist? Does right and wrong need our acceptance to exist?
 
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There is a lot of assumption going on here.

Assumptions:
1 there is a God
2 that is the way God does things
3 there is any kind of judgment
4 there is a hereafter

My only real point is that there is no way to know anything. Because everyone has a different way of looking at things, it even furthers this complication. How can I say what I believe is truer then what you believe? I definitely can not. The same as how you can’t say that about me. There is no way to “truly” anything.

I personally think that Hitler deserves to burn. However, that is only what I think. Not necessarily true.

Those assumptions that I listed above very well may be the truth. However, they also may not be. How can anyone say what they believe is true, even if they feel it from the bottom of their heart, if someone else feels differently about the same thing from the bottom of their heart?

Most atheists “know” there is no God. However, most religious people “know” there is a God. Just because someone feels they are 100% right does not make them right.

Who can decide who is right? I can’t. The atheist can’t. The religious person can’t. Only the creator can, whoever he/she/it is, if he/she/it even exists.

Yep, lots of assumptions on my part. One of the problems with phiosopical and religious debates.

I will say we do have a lot we do agree on. I think basicaly we choose different brands of glasses to look at them.

I totaly agree with you on this statement, even if it may be for different reasons.

I personally think that Hitler deserves to burn. However, that is only what I think. Not necessarily true.

Peace be with you, it is the differences that eventually bring about understanding and tolerance. I feel that assumptions are a good place to begin valid discussion. But, that is my assumption.
 
Peace be with you, it is the differences that eventually bring about understanding and tolerance. I feel that assumptions are a good place to begin valid discussion. But, that is my assumption.


It is agreed. We will look at things differently and yet still respect each other. Wow, acceptance of diversity is so beautiful. If only everyone could do the same.

In the words of John Lennon, "All we need is love."
 
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The following applies to me too:

glo said:
I was raised as a Catholic and participated in all the traditions attached to that - from christening to confession and first communion.

I didn't question, but also didn't really understand - I am not sure I even believed.

I had no sense of God's present or any perception of his working in my life.

Consequently I stuck with it as long as lived with my parents, but fell more and more away when I left home.




steve said:
The truth.
When it comes to obvious truths such as: “Objects fall when left in mid air.” it is quite easy to test them ……But dealing with less obvious truths out of the fields of sociology, religion…..we suddenly find their testability a bit more challenging.



Actually it is quite easy to test:


Theory: Allah is all powerful

In the last 3 years natural disasters have killed 350,000 people globally and left 100,000 homeless. In the previous 10,000 years many millions were killed too.



Theory: Allah is all forgiving.

If people sin they will have eternal damnation!!!!



Theory: Allah is perfect

10,000 years after Allah placed humans on the earth, He decided to give us a prophet. The Word of God was given to Moses but that Word was imperfect.

God waited 1,000 years to fix the problem. He gave the Word to Jesus but that too was imperfect.

He waited another 600 years to give the True Word of God to Mohammad (pbuh)


In the mean time many have strayed and most still don't know the Word of God. He better do something soon!


Theory: Allah is all loving


He decided to wait 10,000 years after placing humans on the earth, the give humans the secret to combat diseases. For the first 10,000 years he kept the solution secret.

-
 
Actually it is quite easy to test:

you think this simple calculation comes even close to testing religion? I for one will not trow away my religion because of it. Never the less your example is most welcome because it allows me to illustrate my point perfectly. The problem with paradigms is. when considering a part of someone else's paradigm it seems absurd. You could compare it with a puzzle. If you take a piece of a puzzle from someone else's puzzle, and try and fit that piece in with your pieces, you 'll see it doesn't work. That's because your own puzzle is (as is mine) full of assumptions. So in order to genuinly study that piece, you need to consider the whole puzzle, not just the single piece.
To try and explain it in a lil less abstract way:
You take a single concept (piece of puzzle) like a deity, and try to fit that in with your atheistic paradigm. Of course teh piece won't fit, because you forgot to see all the other pieces it fits with:

Theory: Allah is all powerful
In the last 3 years natural disasters have killed 350,000 people globally and left 100,000 homeless. In the previous 10,000 years many millions were killed too.
This brings what is known as epicurus riddle: Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able, then he is not omnipotent. Is he able but not willing, then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing, then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing, then why call him God?
First let me rule out some of those possibilitys; according to Islam God is able (omnipotent). So that leaves out unwilling. Allah allowed these things to happen. And I can see how you would describe these events as bad. And I understand if one of them would hit you personal that you experience it as bad. So I understand if you would think alowing this to happen is malevolent. However when judging this as such, you're forgetting to consider two important parts of the puzzle. First of all, this puzzle is all about people being created by a creator. We’re given an existence and a limited stay on this earth. Holding a grudge against your creator because your stay here is limited doesn’t make sense. Is it malevolent for for producers to make films that have an ending? Is it malevolent for a writer to write a book that has an ending? Can you blame God for alowing you only a limited stay here? Shouldn't you be thankfull you were given a stay at all? Since this limited stay is a test, the end of a person’s stay is covered under the veil of death. Would it not be covered; and people would be snatched away from this world to the next in an obvious way; then it would ruin the “test” for the rest of us. It would make religion an obvious thing rather then a question of believe and faith.
The second thing you missed out is that this puzzle claims that death is a transition, and that everybody will be rewarded according to what they earn after it. That puts the “disaster” into perspective.

What is that perspective worth to you if you don’t believe that? It probably won’t mean a lot. But you cannot claim the concept of an omnipotent God is flawed due to your personal believes.

Theory: Allah is all forgiving.
If people sin they will have eternal damnation!!!!

I never said that. Islam never claimed that. You're confusing Allah with the cristian God. According to Islam not everybody will eb forgiven, some will be punisched for their sins. I said Allah is the most just and the most mercifull.
The most just means that some will be punished and some rewarded. If everybody would be forgiven, would that be just? Are the blind equal to the seeing? Are the deaf equal to the hearing? ? Are the death equal to the living? Can you imagine a heaven where people like hitler are walking around?
The most mercifull means that Allah gives more then he recieves. That his criterion in judging is in our favour, as explained in teh following hadeeth:
The system of recording of deeds is detailed in Hadith Qudsi. Narrated by Abdullah ibn Abbas in which he narrates from his Lord:
Indeed, Allah has defined the good and the evil deeds, and then explained them. So, whoever had the thought to do a good deed, but did not do it, Allah writes it for him as a complete good deed, while if he actually did it. Allah writes it for him as ten good deeds, or up to seven hundred fold, or even many times more. And, if he had a thought to do an evil deed, but dispelled the thought and did not do it. Allah writes it for him as a complete good deed, while if he entertained the thought and acted on it, Allah writes it as a single evil deed.
Related by Al-Bukhari and Muslim


Theory: Allah is perfect
10,000 years after Allah placed humans on the earth, He decided to give us a prophet. The Word of God was given to Moses but that Word was imperfect.
God waited 1,000 years to fix the problem. He gave the Word to Jesus but that too was imperfect.
He waited another 600 years to give the True Word of God to Mohammad (pbuh)
In the mean time many have strayed and most still don't know the Word of God. He better do something soon!
First of all there where thousands of prophets so it's not like humanity had to wait all those years for guidance. And in the beginning the words of all the prophets were good, it's only later that peopel corrupted the difrent scriptures. Again you're failing to see the whole picture. If you consider the existance of a perfect God, you need to consider his intentions to or your attempt is vain and futille. Yes people still stray. But is that because God isn't perfect? No, if he wanted he could have made it so that everyone would follow him, but that would defeat the purpose of testing us. Life is a test to see what we do with our freedom of choice. It all hapens for a reason.

Theory: Allah is all loving
He decided to wait 10,000 years after placing humans on the earth, the give humans the secret to combat diseases. For the first 10,000 years he kept the solution secret.
You are again confusing Allah with the christian God. Allah does not love the sinners and evil-doers. He does not love all, but I can imagen you'd feel that doesn't quite answer your argument. Well have no fear, there's more. This argument is also flawed for the same reasons as the previous examples. First of all disease is a part of creation, it is one of the veils of death and created with the purpose of ending our stay here without making the master plan obvious. Second of all, although it seems logical to judge a disease as "bad" it doesn't mean that God is un-loving for creating this disease. Or for that matter for creating bad things all toghether. It is all part of the test. And eventually the more mishabs you have to endure, the better your reward will be inshallah in the next life. And at that point, when living an eternal life, the limited mishabs here on earth won't look that major. Let alone that you judge life here on earth as bad in general, because not everybody shares that opinion either. even peoelp with lots of mishabs can still apreciate and love life, with it's lesser atractive features.
 
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