Women in Prison..check this out

[Noora_z3]

Here is a very interesting report. I picked some of the points and thought to share them with u guys adding some of my own comments and reflections.

March 23, 2005 ABC News: Inside a Maximum Security Women's Prison in Atlanta by "Primetime Live"'s Diane Sawyer.

First let me tell u that the report states that 99% of the women in maximum security prison are MOTHERS…..strange huh!

Men tend to kill strangers, but women kill family members. Almost half of America's female murderers killed their husband or boyfriend.
One of those inmates said that "I had a very abusive husband. But he was sexually molesting our children. And when I went to the police, they wouldn't do nothing. So I did,"

Personally I think that females tend to turn to violence as their last option, either for self defense or to protect their kids, which is in accord to their basic nature. A cat is so cute and calm, but once it becomes a mother and feels that her kids r endangered she becomes so wild and aggressive…..does any one blame these women?!!

Now check out this very astonishing statement….

One of the peculiarities of American justice is that for many violent crimes, women tend to serve longer sentences than men.
The Gambrel case hardly proves that sentencing is fair and uniform though. While Gambrel serves a life sentence, another woman in Metro with a very similar story received the death penalty. use
Kelly Gissendaner, 36, is the only woman on death row in Georgia. The mother of three is held behind heavy metal gates.
"The defendant in this case is a desperate, evil woman," the prosecution said. "That's what evil looks like.". Her lover got a life sentence with the possibility of parole in exchange for testifying against her.

Both, her and her boy friend, participated in committing this crime, she was given a death penalty and him life sentence with the possibility of parole?!!!...Something is stinking in here!!...

This whole thing of equality of men and women did so much harm for women all around the world, she asked for liberation, started to dress like men and work beside men, the irony?! She still works full time in her house in addition to her career, she have to sponser her family, she earns less than man, and if she wants to enjoy her pension, she should work till she is 67!!!...No woman can bear that, so she quit working before retirement age, here goes her pension!, the result is..75% of the elderly in poverty in USA are women… who is gonna support her now?!..NO ONE..coz she asked for equality.

Now let’s see if she committed a crime, she tends to serve longer sentences than men. She asked for equality and they granted her more than wat she asked for. I feel sick every time I read such stuffs, one can see such reports screaming ‘injustice is committed against women in broad daylight’, some women unfortunately, r so confused, they forgot wat is liberation all about. Enslavement became synonymous to equality and liberation. All those who r wasting their efforts running after the wrong type of liberation… get real!!, look where women r really suffering and restore their lost rights, give them back wat they really deserve, dignity, respect, a life.

Muslim societies, unfortunately, r going in the same direction as like the western ones, we should and must work hard to stop this trend, bring things to order, otherwise our daughters and grand-daughters will fall victims of so called ‘liberation’, they will pay the price high for our INACTION.

 

[Bint Abdusattar]

Thsi shows the importance of the Islamic way of life. The woman to be looked after by her father and then husband. It is in women's fitra to be homemakers and to be loooked after and appreciated. Just look at the consequenses of the so called 'liberation of women' and 'women's rights' et.

What disturbs me about this terminology and what we all need to look out for is: when they say 'women's rights':

our needs should be OUR needs and not needs of white middle class people.
Our concerns and not Western concerns

Don't have our agenda dictated from outside

When we women flick through magazines and see fashions and ways of life, we should think:
I am not going to allow someone else dictate to me what their idea of beauty is

Sorry for going of the topic a bit but we need to identify the source of problems and not just try to cure the symptoms.

 

[afzalaung]

just comes to show...the kuffar Judiciary system is a failure!

 

[BlissfullyJaded]

Yup, totally prooves who's really the oppressed one. All they're doin with their whole liberation stuff is just enslaving themselves even more to men.

Jazakallah khair sis Noora. :thumbs_up

 

[Noora_z3]

Jamee'n insha Allah

 

[Khaldun]

Muslim societies, unfortunately, r going in the same direction as like the western ones, we should and must work hard to stop this trend, bring things to order, otherwise our daughters and grand-daughters will fall victims of so called ‘liberation’, they will pay the price high for our INACTION.

when you say we need to stop this trend what do you mean, which trend? the killing that women do or the womens right issue?

 

[MetSudaisTwice]

yeah bro that was what i was thinking, am getting cofused over that trend issue

 

[Noora_z3]

when you say we need to stop this trend what do you mean, which trend? the killing that women do or the womens right issue?

oops...didnt know i made u guys confused...meant the women's right issue... in sauda arabia like everyday writers in prominent newspapers r callin for so called "Libiration of Women", and its not libiration they r askin for, but enslavment.

 

[Ibn Abi Ahmed]

just comes to show...the kuffar Judiciary system is a failure!

yup ;D ;D ;D

 

[renak]

yup ;D ;D ;D

How is incarcerating a killer a failure?

 

[renak]

Thsi shows the importance of the Islamic way of life. The woman to be looked after by her father and then husband. It is in women's fitra to be homemakers and to be loooked after and appreciated. Just look at the consequenses of the so called 'liberation of women' and 'women's rights' et.

The whole idea of being looked over by a father or husband is very appealing to me. However, we cannot guarantee that these fathers and husbands are actually good, nonviolent men themselves.

 

[...]

Yes but if they follow islam then they should be. A woman should marry a pious husband.

 

[renak]

Yes but if they follow islam then they should be. A woman should marry a pious husband.

This is only in an ideal situation. Life is much more complicated.

 

[HeiGou]

First let me tell u that the report states that 99% of the women in maximum security prison are MOTHERS…..strange huh!

Well no, most women end up being mothers. Why is it strange that prisoners tend to be mothers too?

Personally I think that females tend to turn to violence as their last option, either for self defense or to protect their kids, which is in accord to their basic nature. A cat is so cute and calm, but once it becomes a mother and feels that her kids r endangered she becomes so wild and aggressive…..does any one blame these women?!!

Think about the source and its possible biases. What are these women going to say - they went out and shot someone for fun? Of course not. They will want to get parole and to have people think nice things about them so of course they will say "I was a victim".

Both, her and her boy friend, participated in committing this crime, she was given a death penalty and him life sentence with the possibility of parole?!!!...Something is stinking in here!!...

Without knowing the specifics it is very hard to comment. It is worth noting that it has only been in the last few years that any women have been executed at all - at least since the Furman decision in, umm, 1972. The death penalty is very rarely applied to women at all so the question ought to be what was the aggravating factor that affected this woman. Maybe she pulled the trigger. Maybe he co-operated with the DA. Who knows?

This whole thing of equality of men and women did so much harm for women all around the world, she asked for liberation, started to dress like men and work beside men, the irony?! She still works full time in her house in addition to her career, she have to sponser her family, she earns less than man, and if she wants to enjoy her pension, she should work till she is 67!!!...

How did it do harm for women? Women do not dress like men, but even if they did, how is that harm for them? Women sometimes work in the home and I admit that men do not do as much housework, but it is not a full time job anymore and men do a lot more housework than they used to. It would be a strange woman that worked full time at two jobs while her husband only did one (and by the way did anyone see the documentary on a Palestinian American who married a Palestinian woman and brought her home only for her to be bored out of her mind because he wouldn't let her out and she just could not find enough housework to do?). She may earn less, but you have to ask if she is working at the same job - women tend to prefer part time jobs which, obviously, pay less. And traditionally in the West men worked until they were 65, women until they were 60. Where's the irony?

No woman can bear that, so she quit working before retirement age, here goes her pension!, the result is..75% of the elderly in poverty in USA are women… who is gonna support her now?!..NO ONE..coz she asked for equality.

Of course women can work until they are 65 if they want. But how does their pension go if they retire early exactly? The elderly are the richest segment of the American population. I am sure that among the old and poor most are women but then they live a hell of a long time (men die much younger) and so their money may run out. Also you have to ask how poverty is defined. An old person who has little money may be better off than a young person with a lot more. Exactly how does that relate to the demand for equality? If their husbands did not put aside enough money for them what makes you think they would have if their wives didn't work?

Now let’s see if she committed a crime, she tends to serve longer sentences than men. She asked for equality and they granted her more than wat she asked for. I feel sick every time I read such stuffs, one can see such reports screaming ‘injustice is committed against women in broad daylight’

That does not apply to the Death penalty and I rather doubt it applies to the rest of the criminal justice system either. Women did ask for equality. What is wrong with that?

some women unfortunately, r so confused, they forgot wat is liberation all about. Enslavement became synonymous to equality and liberation. All those who r wasting their efforts running after the wrong type of liberation… get real!!, look where women r really suffering and restore their lost rights, give them back wat they really deserve, dignity, respect, a life

.

No one thinks enslavement is synonymous with equality except the enemies of equality. How are they wasting their time exactly? Women are suffering - but only in the Third World and wherever else they do not have the dignity and respect they deserve. Not in the West. How is being locked in the home 24 hours a day a life?

Muslim societies, unfortunately, r going in the same direction as like the western ones, we should and must work hard to stop this trend, bring things to order, otherwise our daughters and grand-daughters will fall victims of so called ‘liberation’, they will pay the price high for our INACTION.

Knock yourself out. Myself I think that your daughters and granddaughters will, and should, choose. What do you think they will choose?

 

[Noora_z3]

Well no, most women end up being mothers. Why is it strange that prisoners tend to be mothers too??

99% is a big percentage, alrighty, lets see, of all american women (Whit, Black, Hispanic, etc..) how many of them r mothers? i mean wat percentage mothers constitute in femal population of USA? if u can answer that question, then we can decide if it is strange that 99% of women in maximum security prison r mothers or not.

Think about the source and its possible biases. What are these women going to say - they went out and shot someone for fun? Of course not. They will want to get parole and to have people think nice things about them so of course they will say "I was a victim".

Well of course we cant say who is right n who is not, but the point is that the report stated that women tend to kill family memebers, which is something unusual, i mean we know that women r more compassionate than men, they r less voilent than men, then why do they kill their own husbands or boyfreinds? u dont agree with me in this?

Without knowing the specifics it is very hard to comment. It is worth noting that it has only been in the last few years that any women have been executed at all - at least since the Furman decision in, umm, 1972. The death penalty is very rarely applied to women at all so the question ought to be what was the aggravating factor that affected this woman. Maybe she pulled the trigger. Maybe he co-operated with the DA. Who knows??

Alrighty, in this I agree with u, we cant be sure in this regard.

Women sometimes work in the home and I admit that men do not do as much housework, but it is not a full time job anymore and men do a lot more housework than they used to.

R u talking about a small segment of the socity? or bout the majority?
Regardless, even if she works full time and she has a cooperative partner, her hosue n her kids r still her responsiblity.

She may earn less, but you have to ask if she is working at the same job - women tend to prefer part time jobs which, obviously, pay less.

Nope i wasnt comparing between men working full time n women working part time, In Oprah Show, Oprah said that women compared with men working in the same position have lower wages. Even in sports, men get a higher reward in winngin any Tennis Tournement than women.

The elderly are the richest segment of the American population. I am sure that among the old and poor most are women but then they live a hell of a long time (men die much younger) and so their money may run out.
Also you have to ask how poverty is defined. An old person who has little money may be better off than a young person with a lot more.

when I said that 75% of the elderly in poverty in USA are women, I quoted Oprah Winfry once again, isnt she reliable? I think we should ask her.

No one thinks enslavement is synonymous with equality except the enemies of equality. How are they wasting their time exactly? Women are suffering - but only in the Third World and wherever else they do not have the dignity and respect they deserve. Not in the West. How is being locked in the home 24 hours a day a life?

is thats wat suffuring is, being locked at home 24 hours a day?!, suffuring is, being exploited by men in music, movies, commercials, magazines..etc., their worth is valued according to their thiness n sexyness, their flesh matters more than their brains or insides. Suffuring is wen they have to work as truck drivers n diggers in mines because their fathers n husbands think they HAVE to support themselves financially. Suffuring is wen their boyfrinnds make them prgnent n then leave them alone just because they werent ready! Suffuring is wen they have to work as strippers or prostitutes so to be able to pay their tuition fees. Suffuring is wen they have to work inside n outside their houses to prove to others that they r as good as men

By the way, u know where I live, I live in Saudi arabia (although i am not saudi), all my freinds r saudis, if u come here n say i heard that women r locked in their houses 24/7, they gonna laugh at u. if u go any where, hospitals, banks, compnaies, malls u will see women walkin by their own, I go with my sister to a mall walking at 7:30 p.m. n come back by 9:30 p.m. walking without any fear, trust me its not so near.

I am not saying that all women in asian or african countries have all their rights protected, but relativly we got more freedom than most western women.

Knock yourself out. Myself I think that your daughters and granddaughters will, and should, choose. What do you think they will choose?

I oppose the western concept of equality. I belive in equality, I never thought that guys r any better than I am, I am as good as any guy, I can do any job I want, n I can be happy without a hubbt in my life, i dont think that i need a guy to complete me, I am a whole by myself. N I can gurantee that I can perform better than any guy. But that dosent mean that I, just to prove to others that I am as good as man, loose my femininity n dignity, I am comfortable in my own skin n I dont need to prove to the world that I am no less than a man.

Oh yeah, my daughters n gradndaughter will choose like I did before tham, And I am sure that they will choose to be even better than me.

 

[HeiGou]

Well no, most women end up being mothers. Why is it strange that prisoners tend to be mothers too??

99% is a big percentage, alrighty, lets see, of all american women (Whit, Black, Hispanic, etc..) how many of them r mothers? i mean wat percentage mothers constitute in femal population of USA? if u can answer that question, then we can decide if it is strange that 99% of women in maximum security prison r mothers or not.

Are you saying being a mother makes them more likely to be criminals? Maybe criminals are more likely to be young? Maybe they think their sentence is an excellent time to be mothers - I mean what else are they going to be doing?

Do you think there is something going on here that does not meet the eye?

Well of course we cant say who is right n who is not, but the point is that the report stated that women tend to kill family memebers, which is something unusual, i mean we know that women r more compassionate than men, they r less voilent than men, then why do they kill their own husbands or boyfreinds? u dont agree with me in this?

Well who else are they going to kill? No seriously. Are they out robbing banks? Are they out selling drugs? No, they are more often at home with the kids and a husband who does not listen. Who else are they going to kill? I bet 100 percent of Muslim women in Saudi Arabia who kill kill family members. They are, on average, less violent than men or at least less effective. And women tend to prefer certain types of murder - poison for instance. How can you poison a stranger?

Women sometimes work in the home and I admit that men do not do as much housework, but it is not a full time job anymore and men do a lot more housework than they used to.

R u talking about a small segment of the socity? or bout the majority?
Regardless, even if she works full time and she has a cooperative partner, her hosue n her kids r still her responsiblity.

In Muslim society perhaps. My sisters-in-law might beg to differ. I expect that middle class men are more likely to help out than working class ones but I do not know.

She may earn less, but you have to ask if she is working at the same job - women tend to prefer part time jobs which, obviously, pay less.

Nope i wasnt comparing between men working full time n women working part time, In Oprah Show, Oprah said that women compared with men working in the same position have lower wages. Even in sports, men get a higher reward in winngin any Tennis Tournement than women.

I think they equalised that in tennis now - which is unfair because women play a shorter game. No, on average women earn about 76 percent of what men do. Not necessarily for the same job. It is nearly exactly the same for women who are not married and don't have children.

The elderly are the richest segment of the American population. I am sure that among the old and poor most are women but then they live a hell of a long time (men die much younger) and so their money may run out.
Also you have to ask how poverty is defined. An old person who has little money may be better off than a young person with a lot more.

when I said that 75% of the elderly in poverty in USA are women, I quoted Oprah Winfry once again, isnt she reliable? I think we should ask her.

You're kidding me? Oprah is not reliable.

No one thinks enslavement is synonymous with equality except the enemies of equality. How are they wasting their time exactly? Women are suffering - but only in the Third World and wherever else they do not have the dignity and respect they deserve. Not in the West. How is being locked in the home 24 hours a day a life?

is thats wat suffuring is, being locked at home 24 hours a day?!, suffuring is, being exploited by men in music, movies, commercials, magazines..etc., their worth is valued according to their thiness n sexyness, their flesh matters more than their brains or insides. Suffuring is wen they have to work as truck drivers n diggers in mines because their fathers n husbands think they HAVE to support themselves financially. Suffuring is wen their boyfrinnds make them prgnent n then leave them alone just because they werent ready! Suffuring is wen they have to work as strippers or prostitutes so to be able to pay their tuition fees. Suffuring is wen they have to work inside n outside their houses to prove to others that they r as good as men

Actually being locked up 24 hours a day sounds like prison to me. How is the fact that some women can earn a living posing in very little worse than being locked up? Those women are not forced to do it. They want to or want the money. And it is not as if there is no room for smart women in the West. A woman does not have to be sexy to succeed in the West - look at Ruth Bader Ginsburg (she sits on the Supreme Court). The West allows women a wide variety of choices. What sort of husband or father thinks their wife has to support them? I'd like to meet one of those women! Bad boy friends happen everywhere. In Muslim society too. I think that some women are happy to work as strippers - but no one is forced to. They can stay home if they do not want to prove they can work as well as men. A lot of women do stay at home. They have the choice. What is wrong with that?

By the way, u know where I live, I live in Saudi arabia (although i am not saudi), all my freinds r saudis, if u come here n say i heard that women r locked in their houses 24/7, they gonna laugh at u. if u go any where, hospitals, banks, compnaies, malls u will see women walkin by their own, I go with my sister to a mall walking at 7:30 p.m. n come back by 9:30 p.m. walking without any fear, trust me its not so near.

Aren't they not allowed out without a male relative? How do they get to the bank - they have drivers? Do you agree with me that if a Saudi husband wanted to he could demand his wife stayed at home 24.7?

I am not saying that all women in asian or african countries have all their rights protected, but relativly we got more freedom than most western women.

Can you vote? Can you drive? Can you marry whomever you want? Can you go where you like? In what sense are you more free than women in the West?

Knock yourself out. Myself I think that your daughters and granddaughters will, and should, choose. What do you think they will choose?

I oppose the western concept of equality. I belive in equality, I never thought that guys r any better than I am, I am as good as any guy, I can do any job I want, n I can be happy without a hubbt in my life, i dont think that i need a guy to complete me, I am a whole by myself. N I can gurantee that I can perform better than any guy.

Where do you think you got those ideas from? And how is that different from the Western idea of equality?

But that dosent mean that I, just to prove to others that I am as good as man, loose my femininity n dignity, I am comfortable in my own skin n I dont need to prove to the world that I am no less than a man.

Who said you have to? All those women posing for car adverts are sure feminine.

Oh yeah, my daughters n gradndaughter will choose like I did before tham, And I am sure that they will choose to be even better than me.

I hope so too.

 

[renak]

Women who kill need to be incarcerated. Most incarcerated women (and men) refuse to take responsibility for their crimes. Few incarcerated people are actually "innocent".

I fail to see the correlation between imprisoned women and a flawed US penal system.

If a woman finds herself in an abusive situation, there are many options available in the USA to rid herself of such abuse. Killing the abuser is not a valid option.

 

[Noora_z3]

Are you saying being a mother makes them more likely to be criminals? Do you think there is something going on here that does not meet the eye?

they are more often at home with the kids and a husband who does not listen. Who else are they going to kill?

Maybe I didnt convey my point clearly, wat I am tryin to say is, these women r mothers, who want to live a good life, but unfortunatly end up with abusive partners, who dont just not listen but also abuse them mentally, emotionally n physically, also molest their own kids in many cases (n some times nighbour's also), they find their voices unheard, they find themselves unprotected, even if their partners were cought, they can easily walk free in matter of months, so these poor women restore to voilence. In a country where women's rights celebrated every year, I think this shouldnt be acceptable.


In Muslim society perhaps. My sisters-in-law might beg to differ. I expect that middle class men are more likely to help out than working class ones but I do not know.

I think they equalised that in tennis now - which is unfair because women play a shorter game. No, on average women earn about 76 percent of what men do. Not necessarily for the same job. It is nearly exactly the same for women who are not married and don't have children.

If you are sure of wat u r saying, I cant argue any more here, I need to go back n check the facts.

You're kidding me? Oprah is not reliable.

Who is reliable then?

Actually being locked up 24 hours a day sounds like prison to me.

Well like i said, its not the norm, wen women r locked up all day at home, then thats by eastern standards abuse. I am speaking from my first hand experiance. majority of women do watever they want. being locked up is not socially accepted in the muslim world. we should avoide generalisation in order to be objective.

Aren't they not allowed out without a male relative?

Wrong, they can go out without male relative, my saudi freinds wen they were in college they never went home immeditly after finighsin classes, after classes finished which was like 3 p.m. they used to hang out till 7 or 8 p.m., all girls, no guys with them, dine out or shop or do watever they like, their familis didnt object, n it wasnt something unacceptable.

My other freind, she lived alone in an apartment while she was in collge, that wasnt something unheard of.

How do they get to the bank - they have drivers?

True, they have drivers coz they r not allowed to drive, but look at it from diffrent prespective, these ppl r felthy rich, they wear nothing but branded desingers clothes, they can afford as many drivers as they want. N with drivers they can go just anywhere they want to go any time they want. The driver stays in the car, n they hang out whereever they want n go back like 12 midnight. The car is just a mean of transportation. N u know wat saudi girls say, even if driving for women was to be allowed (which it will soon), thye would rather go with drivers coz thats much easier, n thats wat its like to be rich.

N for ur information, in emergencis women do drive here, like if their husbands or kids got sick n no one was there to take them to the hospital they sit in the dirving seat. Now u ask bt thats dangerouse coz they never drived before, i tell u nope wrong, they did, lots of girls here learn to drive wen they go camping or stuff like that.

Do you agree with me that if a Saudi husband wanted to he could demand his wife stayed at home 24.7?

Nope he cant, thats like I said isnt acceptable, she can protest n ask for help. Or she can file for divorce with her family' assurance that she got a home to live at.
U see a women will only accept to be a slave only if she was poor, or if there was no one to support her. Lots of women in western world stay in abusive relaitionshops coz there is no where for them to go, her father nor her brother will take her back coz she is the solo responsible of herself.

How is the fact that some women can earn a living posing in very little worse than being locked up? Those women are not forced to do it. They want to or want the money. I think that some women are happy to work as strippers - but no one is forced to.

They loose their dignity for few bucks, they make bussniss of their own flesh just to support themselves, who is the winner here n who is the loosers? The winner is the man coz he gets free flesh whereever he turns when ever he wants, he is the winner coz he dosent have to worry bout his daughters education or his sisters well being, they r "independent responsible adults as he is".

Who is the looser? the woman coz she sells herself, n she is forced to do that coz her father has abandond her n her brother dont car bout her. U think working as stripper or posing for semi nude pics makes her happy?! if u think so then u dont know wat a woman is, no woman would do that with a happy heart, she is forced to do that, forced by wat? forced by the living conditions of the western socites .

And it is not as if there is no room for smart women in the West. A woman does not have to be sexy to succeed in the West - look at Ruth Bader Ginsburg (she sits on the Supreme Court). The West allows women a wide variety of choices.

Even in the east.

Can you vote? Can you drive? Can you marry whomever you want? Can you go where you like? In what sense are you more free than women in the West?

Women can vote in every Arabic country except saudi, in fact guys cant vote either in saudi coz there is no such thing as election.

can I Drive?, like i said i dont think that defins me, as long as I can go whereever I can n wenever I want, I am fine with it.

Can I marry who I want? Of course I can.


I am free coz I got the choice to work or stay. coz my husband n my father before him supported me financially in everything, education, clothing, entertainment, vacation.

If I chose to work, I got so many options where I can work without loosing my dignity or without making myself cheap property. On top of that, watever I earn is MINE only, nither my father nor my husband can ask for my money or expect me to help him financiall (only if I chose so) so I am completly free to do watever I want with my money.

I inherit as my brother does, but he has to support his sister with that money while I dont have to, i can do watever I wish with that money.

I am not judged by my looks or my body, but only by my mind n personality. I am my own queen, no one owns me.

Well we can disagree forever, I guess each one of us got his/her own point of view in this matter, n since we r 2 diffrent persons we cant agree on everything, so I agree to disagree. N it was real pleasure to talk with u, I am impressed by ur analytical mind. Good job.

 

[HeiGou]

Are you saying being a mother makes them more likely to be criminals? Do you think there is something going on here that does not meet the eye?

they are more often at home with the kids and a husband who does not listen. Who else are they going to kill?

Maybe I didnt convey my point clearly, wat I am tryin to say is, these women r mothers, who want to live a good life, but unfortunatly end up with abusive partners, who dont just not listen but also abuse them mentally, emotionally n physically, also molest their own kids in many cases (n some times nighbour's also), they find their voices unheard, they find themselves unprotected, even if their partners were cought, they can easily walk free in matter of months, so these poor women restore to voilence. In a country where women's rights celebrated every year, I think this shouldnt be acceptable.

I don't think it is acceptable either but I doubt that by any measure domestic abuse in America is particularly high - not compared with, say, Gaza. Sure some women end up with abusive partners, but that is a universal problem, not just an American one.

I think they equalised that in tennis now - which is unfair because women play a shorter game. No, on average women earn about 76 percent of what men do. Not necessarily for the same job. It is nearly exactly the same for women who are not married and don't have children.

If you are sure of wat u r saying, I cant argue any more here, I need to go back n check the facts.

You might like to look at http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba/ba392/

Actually being locked up 24 hours a day sounds like prison to me.

Well like i said, its not the norm, wen women r locked up all day at home, then thats by eastern standards abuse. I am speaking from my first hand experiance. majority of women do watever they want. being locked up is not socially accepted in the muslim world. we should avoide generalisation in order to be objective. [/quote]

But you are taking an extreme in America - women in prison! - and comparing that to the norm in Saudi? That's not fair. Of course in your own first hand experience you are unlikely to meet women who are locked up are you? They are, after all, locked up. You can go to a wide variety of Muslim sites and hear women who say they would like to go out but their husbands will not let them unless he is there. They are not allowed to work or even to go to the Mosque. I do not know how widespread it is, but is happens.

Why do you think that is abuse by eastern standards? Is it permitted? I gather men must not stop women studying Islam but can they stop them doing everything else?

Aren't they not allowed out without a male relative?

Wrong, they can go out without male relative, my saudi freinds wen they were in college they never went home immeditly after finighsin classes, after classes finished which was like 3 p.m. they used to hang out till 7 or 8 p.m., all girls, no guys with them, dine out or shop or do watever they like, their familis didnt object, n it wasnt something unacceptable.

Are you sure they can go out? You mean as long as they stayed within an all-female environment, they could "hang out"? But what if they wanted to walk down the street to a Mall? Could they do that without a male guardian being present?

How do they get to the bank - they have drivers?

True, they have drivers coz they r not allowed to drive, but look at it from diffrent prespective, these ppl r felthy rich, they wear nothing but branded desingers clothes, they can afford as many drivers as they want. N with drivers they can go just anywhere they want to go any time they want. The driver stays in the car, n they hang out whereever they want n go back like 12 midnight. The car is just a mean of transportation. N u know wat saudi girls say, even if driving for women was to be allowed (which it will soon), thye would rather go with drivers coz thats much easier, n thats wat its like to be rich.

Those people are filthy rich. And not all of them. But what about the poor Saudi women who have no drivers? I think women ought to be given choices myself.

Do you agree with me that if a Saudi husband wanted to he could demand his wife stayed at home 24.7?

Nope he cant, thats like I said isnt acceptable, she can protest n ask for help. Or she can file for divorce with her family' assurance that she got a home to live at.

How can she file for divorce? She can protest but do you agree that a woman needs to ask her husband's permission before she can work? Or go outside the home?

U see a women will only accept to be a slave only if she was poor, or if there was no one to support her. Lots of women in western world stay in abusive relaitionshops coz there is no where for them to go, her father nor her brother will take her back coz she is the solo responsible of herself.

I have yet to meet a Father or a Brother who will not look after their own. Besides, women work. They can leave any time they like - and most divorces are initiated by women these days.

How is the fact that some women can earn a living posing in very little worse than being locked up? Those women are not forced to do it. They want to or want the money. I think that some women are happy to work as strippers - but no one is forced to.

They loose their dignity for few bucks, they make bussniss of their own flesh just to support themselves, who is the winner here n who is the loosers? The winner is the man coz he gets free flesh whereever he turns when ever he wants, he is the winner coz he dosent have to worry bout his daughters education or his sisters well being, they r "independent responsible adults as he is".

I think that is for the women to decide. It is not free because men have to pay for it. Of course men have to worry about their daughters' education. And do. You have an odd view of the West.

Who is the looser? the woman coz she sells herself, n she is forced to do that coz her father has abandond her n her brother dont car bout her. U think working as stripper or posing for semi nude pics makes her happy?! if u think so then u dont know wat a woman is, no woman would do that with a happy heart, she is forced to do that, forced by wat? forced by the living conditions of the western socites .

I would not think so, but I am not a woman and I do not know. How do you think men in the West behave? Not like this I assure you. Some perhaps but then some do in the Muslim world too. Women have choices in the West. Lots and lots of them. Some good, some bad. You need to realise there is more to the West than Oprah.

And it is not as if there is no room for smart women in the West. A woman does not have to be sexy to succeed in the West - look at Ruth Bader Ginsburg (she sits on the Supreme Court). The West allows women a wide variety of choices.

Even in the east.

Really? Which Eastern country has had a woman on the Supreme Court or any important woman who was not there because she was someone's sister, daughter or widow?

Can you vote? Can you drive? Can you marry whomever you want? Can you go where you like? In what sense are you more free than women in the West?

Women can vote in every Arabic country except saudi, in fact guys cant vote either in saudi coz there is no such thing as election.

Actually I think that in some Arab countries men still don't vote and Kuwait has just let women vote. So no freedom for Saudi women there.

can I Drive?, like i said i dont think that defins me, as long as I can go whereever I can n wenever I want, I am fine with it.

And can you go wherever you want whenever you want? What if your Father or husband forbids you?

Can I marry who I want? Of course I can.

Don't need your Father's permission?

I am free coz I got the choice to work or stay. coz my husband n my father before him supported me financially in everything, education, clothing, entertainment, vacation.

Nice of them. What could you do if they chose not to?

If I chose to work, I got so many options where I can work without loosing my dignity or without making myself cheap property. On top of that, watever I earn is MINE only, nither my father nor my husband can ask for my money or expect me to help him financiall (only if I chose so) so I am completly free to do watever I want with my money.

As in the West as far as your money goes. But you have fewer options than Western women. And you do not degine what is cheap or what losing your dignity means do you? The government does that for you.

I inherit as my brother does, but he has to support his sister with that money while I dont have to, i can do watever I wish with that money.

Surely only half what he does?

I am not judged by my looks or my body, but only by my mind n personality. I am my own queen, no one owns me.

Except who is going to see your mind or personality? Is there a Saudi equivalent of Oprah? How many important Saudi women writers are there?

 

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Can I marry who I want? Of course I can.

Don't need your Father's permission?

Yep u do.