Would like to understand you people..

[Thomas]

Hi. I came across this site by chance and would really like to understand people I have never met face to face.

I am English born and Christian which faith, by definition, is acquiescent, submissive (turn the other cheek, pray for your enemies etc) but we now seem up against a faith (Islam) that seems to have few if any of these 'disadvantages' to rein in what seems to be a very militant faith. I mean (although it didnt happen in England) tat silly business of Allah being insulted by a teddy bear being named Mohammed when I thought it was one of the commonst names for a boy - like the English JOHN. The other sad things that really irritates and alienates we Brits is Burka covered women holding placards abusing British soldiers as they march past (Luton?). This one act has brought out Brit street mobs to make things much worse for immigrants. Then, yesterday, I read about a 20 years old women ( presume she is female..) going to register for a college cout dressed from head to foot in a burka and refusing to even show her face for identification which seems so incredibly stupid that I can only assume sh was put up to this by others who want to push, push, push the boundaries acceptable to the average Brit. I expect she will appeal against being refused registration - and the appeal will be allowed "in case it offends people of other faiths". In my town we now have a "Tree of Light" instead of an annual Christmas tree "in case th latter offends those of other faiths" . Have you considered how much abuse Christianity takes, every minute of every day through blasphemies and cynicism? And God, in his infinite wisdom allows that whereas muslims seem to feel the need to take revenge - as if Allah is unable to handle it and deal with it.... Dop Muslims ever actually pray for their enemies, do good to those that hurt you and despise you etc?

To summerise, I wish muslim immigrants would just try and assimilate theselves into English life without constanty seeking concessions. OR, are we Brits making misakes by merely thinking that you want Tree of Light etc concessions when you don't want to patronised?

 

[GuestFellow]

Hi.

Welcome to the forum.

 

[Woodrow]

i can not really relate to the happenings in the UK. I was born and raised here in the USA as where many of the Muslims here. Many of us were raised as Christians and it was only after realizing Islam teaches the truth that was lost early in Christianity did we accept Islam. You will often hear us reverts say it was loving Jesus(as) that led us to Islam

 

[zakirs]

Hi ,

Welcome to the forum .. go on ask questions in the forum.

e now seem up against a faith (Islam) that seems to have few if any of these 'disadvantages' to rein in what seems to be a very militant faith.

You have a very wrong idea of what islam is .. please explore through the forum and hope you learn true islam.

 

[Woodrow]

Forgive my poor manners. I should have said this earlier.

WELCOME TO THE FORUMS​

Please enjoy your stay here and feel free to ask questions.

 

[GuestFellow]

I think Thomas you should create a topic and explain any issues you have with Islam, specifically point out any issues about Islam you would like to discuss. It would give a clear idea on how to address them.

 

[Woodrow]

As I can not relate specifically to issues that pertain to the UK, I would just like to address your overall topic heading. "Would like to understand you people.."

To begin with we are very diverse. We come from all walks of life, all nationalities and of all races. We are born citizens and we are immigrants. Many of us began life in another faith, Most commonly Christianity. Many if not most of us have tremendous love and respect for Jesus(as). Islam is basically very simple but we as Muslims are as complex and diverse as all humans are. We have a very strong sense of personal responsibility and accept all we do, say and believe as our own choices and not the result of what others have taught us or led us to believe. We follow no ordained clergy and have no central leader except for Allaah(swt). Many of us only speak the language of the country we are born in. Very few of us speak Arabic as a first Language, although we all strive to learn it so we may read the Qur'an in it's original language.

 

[zakirs]

As I can not relate specifically to issues that pertain to the UK, I would just like to address your overall topic heading. "Would like to understand you people.."

To begin with we are very diverse. We come from all walks of life, all nationalities and of all races. We are born citizens and we are immigrants. Many of us began life in another faith, Most commonly Christianity. Many if not most of us have tremendous love and respect for Jesus(as). Islam is basically very simple but we as Muslims are as complex and diverse as all humans are. We have a very strong sense of personal responsibility and accept all we do, say and believe as our own choices and not the result of what others have taught us or led us to believe. We follow no ordained clergy and have no central leader except for Allaah(swt). Many of us only speak the language of the country we are born in. Very few of us speak Arabic as a first Language, although we all strive to learn it so we may read the Qur'an in it's original language.

I would like to add a few things to it,

We also believe in all the things(Abraham (as) , Moses (as) , Noah (as) etc ) you do except trinity ( and a few minor things)
We believe in 5 basic tenants (known as pilliars )
1) Shahada (acceptance of 1 GOD and his messenger (pbuh)
2) Salat (prayer)
3) Zakat (charity)
4)Sawm of Ramadan (fasting during ramadan for Allah)
5)Hajj (pilgrimage to holy place of makkah)

Now could you tell me , does any of this point to " militancy" ?


EDIT : Do you know Bible also insists on woman wearing veil ? Why do nuns wear veils ?

 

[Misz_Muslimah]

Welcome to the forum Thomas

 

[A'râf]

Hi!

Welcome to us ))

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/Peace

Hi. I came across this site by chance

Welcome to the forum :statisfie

In my town we now have a "Tree of Light" instead of an annual Christmas tree "in case th latter offends those of other faiths" . Have you considered how much abuse Christianity takes..

but Jesus pbuh did not teach Christians to celebrate annual Christmas tree , am I right ? So , why do u think it's offensive / abusing ??

 

[Thomas]

Thank you for your several replies.

Because I am in UK we have some specific problems, being an overcrowded small island. I appreciate that 'pure' Islam is peaceful and incorporates 'love they neighbour' etc and similar to 'pure' christianity. We have received many many immigrants over hundreds of years including the persecuted French protestants who brought their trades with them and,of course, there was no religious conflict. we also received many Jewish refugees througought the 1930s when Hitler was on the rampage AND the escapees from 1939 onwards when most of Europe was overrun by the Nazis and Hitler was only 20 miles from our shores and England in 1940 was completely alone in Europe and at its most desperate and dangerous period since the year 1066! Our Commonwealth allies in Canada, Australia, New Zealand etc did give us much support but we desperately needed help close at hand. After the war, came the West Indians and they assimilated into our culture so nobody can say that we are intolerant of immigrants in general. The population here is now touching 55 million and in very recent years we have received 2 MILLION immigrants so you can see the likelihood of culture clash. The problem is partly religious and partly political. Many of the women dont speak English and show no interest in learning the language. Yet they can vote... so we have to have all the paperwork in 15/20 different languages/dialects in case they miss out on their rights.. but how can they know what is going on if they cant read and write? Obviously, their men folk are dictating the pace as they are used to doing in their own homeland.
The women are entitled to wear burkas if they wish but they will not be welcome in my shop unless I can see their face. Why should I take the risk of it being a terrorist or a robber under cover? In a recent major TV debate programme, one of the panellists was shouted down as a 'nazi' although that party hasn't existed since Germany was defeated in 1945. But guess who shouted this insult? A person that we are virtually forbidden to call a 'paki' because it would "offend a person of another faith" which is the latest politically correct phrase in UK. The 'nazi' jibe should have been edited out as the perceived insult 'paki' would have been, but it wasnt because English people are used to verbal insults and we dont need to fight God's side by issuing 'fatwahs' or whatever the right word is. The Australians call us 'pommie *******s' and we are Brits and we call Americans 'Yanks' but love them just the same, so what is wrong with 'Paki'? And the notion that Allah will provide 72 virgins for any 'successful' suicide bomber is so ridiculous as laughable - but they seem to believe it. Does Allah really say that? And what reward would a female bomber get?

I am sorry to sound so political but the current Islamic immigration problem here has become acute and likely to explode to their disadvantage in the not too distant future. Why do so many of them want to come here anyway? Thousands of them pass through numerous 'safe haven' countries on the way here. is it the English social security benefits? You guys in USA have an enormous country compared to us but with only 4 times the population (approx 200 million?) It is not their faith, not their clothes, not the colour of their skin, not the fact that many schools now have classes where the majority of the pupils come from homes where English is not spoken, so 5 year old starters have to be taught to speak English like most of us did at our mothers' knees. It is DEFINITELY the resentment of more and more immigrants coming and encouraged to change our European culture. Schools scared to have the traditional christmas carol concert "in case it offends children of other faiths" Every one of them knows their "rights" or if they dont, they know somebody else who does... We even have convicted Islamic major terrorists who wont be deported when they are released half way through their sentences because they have "rights" with their friends working on that meanwhile...

If only they would just come here, get jobs, assimilate, build their mosques, stop abusing soldiers who return from risking their lives in Afganistan etc etc, all of which things completely alienate indiginous Brits.

What can 'moderate' muslims do to stop all this before it goes too far? The moslem faith exhibited here seems so different to what your correspondents have described. Do they act like this USA? Probably not because you have plenty of room for them to disperse. We have northern cities with completely no-go areas for non-muslims.

Will somebody tell me where we Brits in UK go from here? This question is now so serious that it is going to be the MAIN debate prior to the next general election that has to take place within the next 6 months. Wouldnt it be great if we could all love our (even Islamic) neighbour.....

 

[Woodrow]

Peace Thomas,

Hopefully some of our Muslim members from the UK will address your issues. Since I am here in the USA and do not have any personal experience with the issues in the UK I will keep my answer to Islamic matters.

This is a common thing I hear.

And the notion that Allah will provide 72 virgins for any 'successful' suicide bomber is so ridiculous as laughable

Suicide is forbidden in Islam. The killing of innocents and non-combatants is forbidden, the killing of anyone by the use of fire is forbidden. I believe that suicide bombers are acting contrary to the teachings of Islam.

The name "Paki" has become a derogatory and offensive term in much the same way an "N" word has become derogatory here in the USA much of that goes back to the 1950s. The era of "Teddy Boys" Skin Heads" and "Paki Bashing"

Check out these links:

http://newmatilda.com/2006/09/27/paki-bashing-bradford-bankstown

http://books.google.com/books?id=d5M9AAAAIAAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=Paki+bashing,+history&source=bl&ots=-RR63a78Hf&sig=904x0Bke7TFjdzSM0BFd3VoN4vY&hl=en&ei=rPXlSpPaLdHrlAeb7YDpCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CAwQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Paki%20bashing%2C%20history&f=false

 

[GuestFellow]

Many of the women dont speak English and show no interest in learning the language.

There are Asian people who do try and learn the English language. Three of my aunties who are Pakistani can read and write English very well and fluent too. My auntie teaches other students how to read and write English. The students find it very difficult to learn English because they have never been through a formal educational system. Most of the students simply learn how to communicate and write basic English. Women may not have time because children is their first priority. As an overview the vast majority of Asian people would like to learn English but find it very hard and difficult. It is like telling you to grasp Urdu or Arabic within the time frame of 2 years. You have to take into consideration how difficult it is to learn a language. The vast majority learn how to communicate but do not go any further than that.

Yet they can vote... so we have to have all the paperwork in 15/20 different languages/dialects in case they miss out on their rights.. but how can they know what is going on if they cant read and write?

They have relatives to help them out who can speak English.

The women are entitled to wear burkas if they wish but they will not be welcome in my shop unless I can see their face. Why should I take the risk of it being a terrorist or a robber under cover?

Before September 11th no one had a problem women wearing the Burka. I think people are overreacting and paranoid. The media has blown things out of proportion but in time...hopefully things shall settle Inshallah. Only a few girls wear the Burka. If you will not allow a women to enter your shop because she wears a burka, then she will simply go to another shop.

In a recent major TV debate programme, one of the panellists was shouted down as a 'nazi' although that party hasn't existed since Germany was defeated in 1945. But guess who shouted this insult? A person that we are virtually forbidden to call a 'paki' because it would "offend a person of another faith" which is the latest politically correct phrase in UK. The 'nazi' jibe should have been edited out as the perceived insult 'paki' would have been, but it wasnt because English people are used to verbal insults and we dont need to fight God's side by issuing 'fatwahs' or whatever the right word is. The Australians call us 'pommie *******s' and we are Brits and we call Americans 'Yanks' but love them just the same, so what is wrong with 'Paki'? And the notion that Allah will provide 72 virgins for any 'successful' suicide bomber is so ridiculous as laughable - but they seem to believe it. Does Allah really say that? And what reward would a female bomber get?

Wow. Reading the post above is like trying to decipher an ancient code and I'm not sure where to start.

It depends on the context on how you use those words. Saying Paki on it's own is not offensive since I've heard it means pure. However if I said ''You Paki [inserts offensive word] then it could imply your racist. If you intentionally use the word Paki to be offensive then it is racist. Fatwā simply means a religious opinion concerning Islam law...

Why do so many of them want to come here anyway?

I'm not going to give an answer which shall explain why everyone wants to come here. First people want to look for work, get their children educated and live a better life. Simple.

It is DEFINITELY the resentment of more and more immigrants coming and encouraged to change our European culture.

How are we changing your culture?

Schools scared to have the traditional christmas carol concert "in case it offends children of other faiths" Every one of them knows their "rights" or if they dont, they know somebody else who does...

I never heard of this. Where did you hear that?

We even have convicted Islamic major terrorists who wont be deported when they are released half way through their sentences because they have "rights" with their friends working on that meanwhile...

That is a different matter. Muslims do not control in what takes place in the courts.

If only they would just come here, get jobs, assimilate, build their mosques, stop abusing soldiers who return from risking their lives in Afganistan etc etc, all of which things completely alienate indiginous Brits.

I agree they should not have insulted the soldiers. Some idiots do not represent Islam very well.

What can 'moderate' muslims do to stop all this before it goes too far? The moslem faith exhibited here seems so different to what your correspondents have described. Do they act like this USA? Probably not because you have plenty of room for them to disperse. We have northern cities with completely no-go areas for non-muslims.

Stop what? Specifically.

Will somebody tell me where we Brits in UK go from here?

Well we can find on something we agree on and build on top of it. That should ease the tension in this country. Tighten immigration laws.

 

[UmmSqueakster]

Welcome!

I do hope that one of the things you'll learn here is that "we people" are not a monolith. I'm a euro-american convert to islam, married to a first generation egyptian-american who just became a citizen a few months back.

I honestly am not familiar with the situation in britain as an insider, and can only comment from the outside looking in. I see that the british empire colonized a wide variety of cultures, and now these cultures have become part of your own.

Myself, coming from a country that is more of a stew of cultures, I see nothing threatening about people coming and bringing their traditions with them. We're not a full on melting pot, but rather, once you jump in, you take on the flavor of the country, but keep your own unique character while adding a bit of your own flavor to the mix. It's a big ol stew, blending and highlighting a great variety. The judge who administered my husband's oath of citizenship said something very similar (although not using the stew analogy, i just always think in terms of food, lol).

I don't see (american) culture as something that is being lost or threatened by immigrants. I am sad that my own family's histories were lost and am currently doing my best to revive them here through cooking (working on siciliy now, mmmm).

 

[Thomas]

Hi Woodrow
Thanks for your response.

I am anxious to sort fact from fiction but when one feels hemmed in and threatened one does tend to believe everything one hers and reads. So, confirmation or otherwise of such things from 'normal' moslems is helpful - regrettably I do not know any muslims personally which is probably because there are not many here on the south coast of England and those that are, are usually into hotel/restaurant catering and inclined to keep to themselves.

SO. I am already learning: Suicide bombing and the notion that one is rewarded with the 'use' of 72 virgins is completely wrong and inexcusable and the virgins bit is a complete myth. Would that be right? When people like me first hear about the latter, we just find it incredible that these bombers can equate carnal things like using women for sexual intercourse as some kind of reward, with a spiritual dimension of the next world, as so ridiculous. Why would God even think like men do? The old testament of the bible tells us that God has said "My ways are not your ways and your ways are not my ways" which seems very reasonable when one considers the level on which mankind seems to operate and often so stupidly.

Another correspondent has asked me of the connection between christianity and the christmas tree. There is a misunderstanding in my post on that subject. I should have seperated one from the other by a seperate paragraph.
What I meant was the merely traditional and spiritually unimportant annual Christmas Tree in every town and school is now at risk of being renamed because the word 'christmas ' can be offensive to moslems... The christmas tree has no spiritual significance (brought here from Germany by Queen Victoria's husband as late as the year 1850) It is just a nice thing to have at Christmas. Then, some outspoken Muslim council leader probably suggested changing it to a Tree of Light to 'encompass' a minority of Muslims - and possibly a perceived vote catcher. If Muslims want to fast for Ramadan, thats ok by me. But some bright spark recently put round a staff notice in a government office suggesting that the rest of the staff dont eat their usual biscuits with mid morning coffee in front of Muslims because it is 'unfair'... I thought the whole idea of fasting was a matter of principal and that some sacrifice would be called for. I'm not saying that non-moslems should tantalise ramadam fasters by saying things like "do you want a bite of this?" as that would amount to unacceptability. The mention of christianity abuse was meant to be a quite seperate issue and whilst moslems dont neccessarily use profain language, millions of others do and christians just have to put up with it. It was in this sense that I think Moslems are wimpish about wanting to make an issue of things every time Mohammed or Allah is perceived as being abused. Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?

 

[Woodrow]

Pace Thomas,

The idea of 72 virgins in heaven is not totally invalid. The Qur'an state that upon entering Heaven we will be greeted by 72 virtuous companions. As to the purpose s we are told that they will do our bidding. To be honest the Qur'an is not very clear in describing them except they will have large beautiful eyes. From what I read they will not be human's as they apparently do not have free will and are created to serve us. women will receive the same according to the interpretations of most scholars.

 

[UmmSqueakster]

Correction - the Qur'an mentions helpers in paradise, but does not mention a number. The source of the specific numbers come from hadith, and even there it doesn't say specifically only 72.

 

[Wyatt]

I am not a Muslim.

This person seems like another one who just wants their prejudice to be proven instead of opening their mind to the possibility that they have been wrong all along--pretending like they want to understand. (I got this by the you people in the title.)

I encourage you to read through this forum, definitely read the Qur'an and meet some of the many Muslims in the UK. There are plenty of resources to learn about Islam, but it really does take quite the bit of research.

Remember, if you truly want to learn about Islam, you have to keep your mind open and realise that there are blatant lies and twisted misconceptions.

It does seem like a very militant religion, only because you are getting your information from the media and the news. I don't see it like that at all and neither do most others, I believe.

Good luck, and who knows, maybe you will be a future convert. I almost was. :shade:

 

[aamirsaab]

What's cracking Thomas?

...

If Muslims want to fast for Ramadan, thats ok by me. But some bright spark recently put round a staff notice in a government office suggesting that the rest of the staff dont eat their usual biscuits with mid morning coffee in front of Muslims because it is 'unfair'... I thought the whole idea of fasting was a matter of principal and that some sacrifice would be called for. I'm not saying that non-moslems should tantalise ramadam fasters by saying things like "do you want a bite of this?" as that would amount to unacceptability.

TBH that's really something small and not particularly problematic. I mean, I personally don't mind if you stuff your face infront of me whilst I'm fasting but I guess it's different strokes for different folks. Whatever, it's still pretty minute.

...It was in this sense that I think Moslems are wimpish about wanting to make an issue of things every time Mohammed or Allah is perceived as being abused.

This isn't always the case. A lot of the times I have been offended by all the Islam-bashing BUT I know that people in general are ass-hats so I just shrug it off and not let it bother me. Which leads me to:

Why cant they just take it on the chin and pray for those who are offending them, like christians have to?

Oh we do. But we can only take so many uppercuts to the chin before it starts to hurt - especially if they are uncalled for. And even more so when the guy throwing the punch starts chanting freedom of speech (before, during AND after) so if I dare to say: ''STOP HITTING ME GOD-****IT'' I'm suddenly trying to remove their freedoms...and if I dare fight back, I'm branded a terrorist...

Anyways, enjoy your stay on the forums!