Yes, Atheists do Exist.

[Pygoscelis]

In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.

looks at Pygo's post...

bangs head against the wall

and again...

you never cease to amaze me, but this really takes the cake!

of course, as i've stated before, my opinion is that there is no such thing as an atheist; a really radical agnostic maybe...and THOSE you will find in every religion as well.

i'm sure that you realize that, in Islam, it is not acceptable for you 2 to date or marry. but i feel "tempted" to ask, "you don't think that the girl and her family are nutjobs simply by being Muslim?" wouldn't the idea of her worshiping or mostly-worshiping God repulse an (alleged) atheist?

or am i biased by what i see about (alleged) atheists in the media? the obviously believe in God, they just hate Him.

*start a thread*
*start a thread*
*start a thread*

This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.

Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

 

[IAmZamzam]

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts.

Let me get this straight. You're telling us to accept that you are quite sincere about thinking of God as being completely on par with fairies...

and also expecting us to think of the sincerity involved in this kind of elitist blanket statement as being...a good thing.

I can't believe my eyes. Even your pleas for tolerance contain intolerance.

Merely telling somebody that you're not setting out to make them angry is about as likely to have an effect on whether they get angry--or even, for that matter, on whether they rightly should--as adding "no offense" is to make hate speech sound less offensive, or "don't get me wrong" is to somehow magically prevent someone from getting you wrong. Disclaimers are not "get out of jail free" cards, and neither are (alleged) good intentions.

 

[Abu Loren]

In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.



This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.

Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

Dear whoever you are

You have just proven the power of the free will that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'als has given to mankind. It is your prerogative whether you believe in God or not. You have stated here uncategorically that you don't, and I applaud you for being so strong in your faith or not as the case may be.

But you must know this. God Almighty Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has given us information and instructions for mankind. One of them is to believe in Him and to worship Him. So by your unbelief there are consequences, if you didn't know them before then I am telling you now that ALL unbelievers in Him will go to hell fire, there are no exceptions to this rule. You may believe this or you may not but it's your choice and we now know what it is.

I don't know if you've ever read any of the scriptures that God has sent down to us, even the corruputed ones. When God Almighty Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala destroyed nations that had sinned He destroyed them completely but saving a handful of the believers from those affected nations. This is also an indication of how many people will go to hell. Out of the billions of human beings that had walked this earth only a handful of those will enter paradise. These chosen few had special qualities. These are all detailed in the Holy Qur'an I suggest you go and read it Inshaa Allah.

In my estimation all atheists are arrogant people who thinks that they know better than God Almighty.

By the way, are you a scientist?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Let me get this straight. You're telling us to accept that you are quite sincere about thinking of God as being completely on par with fairies...

Correct.

and also expecting us to think of the sincerity involved in this kind of elitist blanket statement as being...a good thing.

Correct.

You would rather I lie?

If you take offence to my not believing in something you believe in, I have no way of controlling that. I didn't choose not to believe. I simply don't, just as I presume you don't believe in ghosts (if that is the case). I can understand you thinking me blind, etc. But to be offended by my mere lack of belief makes little sense to me.

And why do you say elitist? What is elitist about my saying I don't believe in the supernatural?

 

[Pygoscelis]

But you must know this. God Almighty Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala has given us information and instructions for mankind. One of them is to believe in Him and to worship Him.

But I don't know that. I don't believe that even a little bit.

So by your unbelief there are consequences, if you didn't know them before then I am telling you now that ALL unbelievers in Him will go to hell fire, there are no exceptions to this rule.

I don't believe that either.

You may believe this or you may not but it's your choice and we now know what it is.

No, it isn't my choice. Without evidence I find convincing, I'm not going to believe. It doesn't matter how hard I try. Can you believe something you don't simply by trying? Could you believe you are an elephant if doing so would save your life? I don't think so.

In my estimation all atheists are arrogant people who thinks that they know better than God Almighty.

They don't believe God Almighty exists, so of course they think they know better than something that doesn't exist. That isn't arrogance.

By the way, are you a scientist?

Not by trade. But I do enjoy science, sure.

 

[Abu Loren]

But I don't know that. I don't believe that even a little bit.

Of course you know, you are in an Islamic forum.

I don't believe that either.

Of course you do you must have seen threads here where people engage in debate about heaven and hell.

No, it isn't my choice. It doesn't matter how hard I try, I'm not going to believe. Can you believe something you don't simply by trying? Could you believe you are an elephant if doing so would save your life? I don't think so.

I suppose one needs guidance. I used to believe as you do but then something happened.

They don't believe God Almighty exists, so of course they think they know better than something that doesn't exist. That isn't arrogance.

Ok fair enough atheists don't believe God exists. I only wish I could convince you somehow but it isn't up to me I suppose.

 

[IAmZamzam]

Even when an atheist flat out admits to total disbelief proper he still insists on calling what he has a "lack of belief". You people are never going to give up with that phrase, are you?

Look, BELIEVE what you want to but be careful how you express it. You've just compared someone else's most deeply cherished beliefs to fairies and ghosts and then you asked how anyone can possibly think of you as an elitist. Are you sure you understand what makes you blind in my eyes? Is it really that hard to connect the dots here? Or am I trying to describe the difference between green and blue to a man with no eyes?

 

[tearose]

I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.
I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

The problem is that all of the things you are talking about are benefits of following a religion, but not the reason for doing so. We follow the path of Islam because we believe it is the truth, and it is what we are required to do and our purpose. Of course we derive comfort from that, but comfort is not the main reason for believing.
Similarly, if you follow some of the Islamic teachings, like not dealing in usury, but you don't do it for the sake of Allah, you don't get any reward for that in the afterlife. I would hope that if you see wisdom in the principles of Islam then it will lead you one day, in sha Allah, to realise that they came from Allah.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Of course you do you must have seen threads here where people engage in debate about heaven and hell.

Just because you read about something on an online forum doesn't mean you believe it. I have also seen threads on internet forums where people debate Star Trek vs Star Wars. That doesn't mean I believe in Klingons or The Force

I suppose one needs guidance. I used to believe as you do but then something happened.

Your belief in Allah and Islam clearly means a lot to you so I'm glad you found your way to it. Others, such as myself, are living happy lives without it. To each their own.

I only started this thread to make it clear that atheists are not arrogant and angry people who hate God. Atheists, by definition, are just people who don't believe in God. That does of course include people who are arrogant and angry, and some who hate particular religions (or religion in general), but that isn't the same thing, and that isn't atheists in general.

Peace be upon you.

 

[GuestFellow]

Of course atheists exist. Look there is a topic created by a member who is an atheist. DUH! = They simply lack belief in a higher being.

 

[tearose]

It doesn't matter how hard I try. Can you believe something you don't simply by trying?

Not by just trying, but you could open yourself up more to the possibility of the existence of Allah and that he can guide you. Seriously consider the message of the Qur'an with an open heart and without preconceptions. Most of your posts give the impression that your mind is already made up, so I don't know if you have ever seriously tried to search for truth. If you read the Qur'an you will see in sha Allah that what we are being called to is something much more significant which can't be compared to any of the comparisons you have made.
Allah guides whom he wills.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Even when an atheist flat out admits to total disbelief proper he still insists on calling what he has a "lack of belief". You people are never going to give up with that phrase, are you?

It isn't the same thing. I do not know with 100% certainty that there are no supernatural beings. I do, however, not believe that there are. Just like I do not know for certain that I am not on TV right now, but I do not believe that I am. I do find me being on TV far more likely though, so maybe that's not a good analogy.

Look, BELIEVE what you want to but be careful how you express it. You've just compared someone else's most deeply cherished beliefs to fairies and ghosts and then you asked how anyone can possibly think of you as an elitist. Are you sure you understand what makes you blind in my eyes? Is it really that hard to connect the dots here? Or am I trying to describe the difference between green and blue to a man with no eyes?

I find it more plausible that I could be on TV than that there could be supernatural beings like ghosts or Gods. To show I actually don't believe (and you can see how I have to do that, since posts are claiming I actually do believe) I made a comparison to something I find equally unlikely to exist. I chose Ghosts and Faeries for good reason, instead of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc. I chose Ghosts and Faeries because there are people who believe in ghosts just as strongly as you believe in God, and there were (and maybe still are) people who believed in Faeries just as strongly as well.

Making such a comparison seems to be the only way to get through to believers that I actually don't believe. And even then, people will continue to insist that atheists don't exist and that we are in denial or that we are rebelling against God, etc. We exist. I am one.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Of course atheists exist. Look there is a topic created by a member who is an atheist. DUH! = They simply lack belief in a higher being.

Bingo!

You win a cookie.

 

[GuestFellow]

Bingo!

You win a cookie.

YAY I WIN. LOVE YOU *HUGS*

I will give you a cake.

 

[YusufNoor]

In a thread that was started here (so I posted in it) but has since been moved to a Muslim fellowship (advice and support) area of the board (where I won't intrude), YusufNoor made this interesting post.

This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.

Personally, since I was asked, no, I am not such an atheist that is disgusted by people worshiping pretend Gods. I see some therepeutic use to it and I see how it has comforted and given some extra sense of purpose and belonging to people I love. I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

misunderstood again :embarrass

i meant, tell us about you and the sister!

kind of a waste of time to talk about my opinion on atheism, cuz it ain't gonna change. the first part of the shahadah id there is no god (ilah) worthy of worship. it doesn't mean God specifically, an ilah is ANYTHING that you worship. if you are disobeying God, you are using guidelines and/or sentiments of your own instead of Allah's. therefore, you put yourself as a god. whatever rhyme, reason, logic you use to do it is therefore your belief system. that is your "religion". EVERYONE has a ilah of some sort, be it luck, fortune, fate, scientific reason, etc. An atheist is making the declaration that Allah doesn't exist. you CAN'T prove that! so, you are pretty sure maybe, but that is agnosticism. like i said, ain't no such thing as an atheist.

I would never want to take somebody's religion away from them if it offers them this and if they don't go crazy with it and don't harm anybody with it.

cool! i guess i see most (alleged) atheists as those who try to force their view on others. it is like they think that anyone who CAN believe in God is an idiot. i guess for not using whatever reason that they themselves used to come about their position.

were your mom and dad (allegedly) atheists?

how do you approach the subject with the sister? what do you do when it is time for prayer? if she decided at the last minute that she could not marry you because you are not a Muslim, would you accept that?

very curious mg:

peace

 

[IAmZamzam]

It isn't the same thing. I do not know with 100% certainty that there are no supernatural beings. I do, however, not believe that there are. Just like I do not know for certain that I am not on TV right now, but I do not believe that I am. I do find me being on TV far more likely though, so maybe that's not a good analogy.

Okay, then, I guess most people “lack belief” in pretty much everything. We’re going to have to go to a lot of effort to redefine out terminology regarding most human viewpoints on every subject in the world, if it’s about total 100% certainly.

Come on, man! “Belief” and “sheer surety” are not synonyms! You’re better than this.

I find it more plausible that I could be on TV than that there could be supernatural beings like ghosts or Gods. To show I actually don't believe (and you can see how I have to do that, since posts are claiming I actually do believe) I made a comparison to something I find equally unlikely to exist. I chose Ghosts and Faeries for good reason, instead of the Flying Spaghetti Monster, or the Invisible Pink Unicorn, etc. I chose Ghosts and Faeries because there are people who believe in ghosts just as strongly as you believe in God, and there were (and maybe still are) people who believed in Faeries just as strongly as well.

You want a skeptical analogy from a skeptic which doesn’t insult believers? It’s easy as pie to do. BAM! RIGHT HERE! Robert Lancaster’s “mile run” analogy. It can be fitted to all kinds of different situations, I reckon. It’s quite telling that he seemed to come up with it so effortlessly whereas most of the religious skeptics I talk to, like you, always gripe to me demanding to know what on earth they’re supposed to compare God to if not Santa Claus and fairies and flying spaghetti monsters. It’s so revealing regarding the nature of your psychologies, in fact, that it calls to mind what Stanhope said about how in life you meet personalities so extravagant that the boldest playwright would never venture to set them forth on the page. What you’re doing is nothing new, you know. It wasn’t even new in The Prophet’s own time:

While they call upon God for succour—‘Woe upon thee! Believe; surely God’s promise is true’; then he says, ‘This is naught but the fairy-tales of the ancients’—such men are they against whom has been realized the Word concerning nations that passed away before them, men and jinn alike; they were losers. (Qur’an 46:17-18, Arberry)

Making such a comparison seems to be the only way to get through to believers that I actually don't believe. And even then, people will continue to insist that atheists don't exist and that we are in denial or that we are rebelling against God, etc. We exist. I am one.

Has it occurred to you that you’re only digging yourself in deeper with these comparisons? That with all this elitist talk of fairies and ghosts maybe you’re making yourself sound more like it’s all about pride and not at all about “lack of belief”?

 

[sister herb]

Of course atheists exist. They are those whose haven´t find right path - yet. Why they are so interesting to tell how they are exist? Maybe Allah who sees to everyones deepest wishes and dreams has put them to looking for the truth.

Who knows.

:statisfie

 

[Karl]

I suppose it is easy not to believe in God/s if you haven't seen one or feel the presence of the divine power.

 

[Abu Loren]

Believe it or not Mr. atheist you lot will be in the majority as the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) tells us that religious knowledge will be lost towards the End of Days.

 

[BlackMamba]

This is not the first time I have seen religious people flatly stating that non-believers don't exist. It perplexes me, because here I am, a non-believer. I am an atheist. Telling yourself I believe in God and just hate him may help you rationalize things for yourself, but I know what I think and what I believe, and what I don't believe. Telling me I believe something I don't and that I feel something I don't is just a weird thing to do.

I don't believe in supernatural beings. I don't believe in ghosts. I don't believe in faeries. I don't believe in Gods. I don't see any of the three as any more likely to be real than any other of the three. I don't say that to anger anybody. It is the truth. I don't hate God anymore than I hate ghosts. Hating something that you don't believe in makes no sense.

When you see outspoken and anti-religious atheists (which is not the majority of atheists) speak against religions, often with disgust and hatred, you are not seeing them hate the Gods. You are seeing them hate the belief systems and the actions of the followers. It isn't the same thing. The closest you will get to them actually hating the Gods would be them judging the Gods as literary characters, like they would Robin Hood or Darth Vader.


I do see danger in religion (mostly in fundamentalist and authoritarian oriented religion) but I can also see good in it. As for Islam, I see a lot of wisdom contained in it. I like the ban on usury for example. Makes sense to me. I can take some good insights form Islam without adopting the belief system or believing in the God.

Couple things I'd like to say

1) I do not think atheism based on the scientific method exists. You get a bunch of scientists and pseudo-scientists (mostly this) who come in an try to use science to somehow prove atheism. When in reality, atheism is more faith-based than really any religion out there. One must make a huge leap of faith when deciding to become an atheist. Going strictly by science, and no faith, one would probably land somewhere in agnosticism. But you are right in saying that atheism does exists. It is a belief-system just like Judaism, Christianity and so on.



2) You say you see danger in religion. Well, is that in religion, or in fundamentalism? Because fundamentalism is not in any way restricted to religion. It can occur in any group-phenomenon.