Swiss minaret ban gains momentum

format_quote Originally Posted by Amadeus85

Mhmm, so You wanna tell me that Islam is not privileged religion in Indonesia right...?

You are talking out of your backside again.

what do you mean by privileged?

Did you know that the holidays of all major religions are recognised as state holidays in Indonesia?. Yes, and that includes christmas, good friday, easter, the days of prophet Jesus pbuh resurrection and ascencion, Waisya' (the birthday of Buddha), Nyepi and galungan and Kuningan (Balinese Hindu holidays).
Try to compare that with Western countries who are constantly boasting about their secularism and liberalism and freedom of this and that and yet recognise only christian holidays as state holidays, refusing to acknowledge other religious holidays, and as the latest case shows, refusing the rights of followers of other religion to build such minor religious thing such as minarets.

Did you know that there is a huge cathedral next to the Istiqlal mosque and a big protestant and anglican churches nearby? did you know that there are hundreds of thousands of churches and temples all over Indonesia?
Did you know that christians have been aggressively building churces in areas where there are extremely few christians, thus causing frictions with local residents?
Did you know that christian missionaries have been using aggressive and deplorable tactics (bribing kids, spreading lies, etc) for years in areas where there are no christian in defiance to government rule, thus causing frictions with the local residents and governments?

Despite Indonesia being the largest muslim country in the world, Indonesia do not implement sharia law (which I think we should by the way). And even under sharia law, people of different religions would still enjoy their rights to practice their religions anyway.

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

what constitute swiss cultural heritage?
is there such lists that tells what's part of swiss cultural heritage and whats not?

It is up to the Swiss to decide what belongs to their cultural heritage. I'm sure they don't all agree! According to the campaigners, the heritage is "Christian values and democracy".

How can a few minarets threaten swiss cultural heritage?

If you ask me they cannot. But clearly this is all about symbolism. Those 60% are actually saying 'we don't like Islamization of our country'.

But to be quite frank, I don't quite understand how you as a Muslim can have such trouble grasping the sentiment that is at the root of this vote? Surely Islam teaches to dislike or even prohibit that which can lead to sin, which includes anything that can lead Muslims astray? To remove things that may "tempt or confuse the people"?

Surely it is exactly that sentiment that explains rulings such as:
- Rulings against non-Muslim proselytizing
- Rulings against Muslims converting to another religion
- Rulings against non-Muslims marrying Muslims
- Rulings against building churches in 'Muslim lands'
- Rulings against giving Zakaat to non-Muslims
- Rulings on destroying idols
- Etc..etc...

I understand that there isn't always consensus on these matters within Islamic circles. But surely many of such rulings are accepted by many Islamic scholars.

All these serve the same purpose. Creating an unequal playing field between different religions. It is exactly what this Swiss vote seems to have in mind. Namely restricting religious freedom in the name of 'protecting' ones own traditional values. As a liberal I cannot approve of it myself.

How about pagoda? do you think they could also threaten swiss cultural heritage?

No. Because Eastern religions are not considered a threat by virtually anyone, which (unfortunately) is not true for Islam. Islam is also thought to be political, which makes it a more likely target. To put it in Islamic terms, Islam is considered kufr. And conservatives attempt to do what they generally believe is a good idea when in their eyes something 'undermines the pillars' of their culture of beliefs: outlaw it.

Now lets hope that the Swiss constitutions, which is thankfully based on more liberal principles, prevents this vote from leading to actual laws that outlaw minarets.

format_quote Originally Posted by Gossamer skye

Ah, but there are only three or four minarets in the whole of Switzerland regardless of of the percentage of Muslims and they seem so threatening, that it can only elicit a guffaw from the rest of us!

There are only four minarets among the tens of thousands of church spires in Switzerland but the SVP campaigned against them as a symbol of Islamic political influence, which it claimed could eventually undermine the nation's Christian values and democracy.

http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news...-1225805496535

Except you weren't talking about minarets, but mosques.

so I'd still say it is you that is full of crap

But anyway. The actual point of my post was to use your own words against you in the hope that you would come to an understanding such language ('you are full of crap') really isn't all that pleasant when you are at the receiving end. I had hoped this would perhaps prevent you from using it in the future.

I guess that didn't quite work out . Just goes to show that fighting fire with fire is a losing strategy!

format_quote Originally Posted by naidamar

How about pagoda? do you think they could also threaten swiss cultural heritage?
do you think the swiss people will also vote to ban a few of these:

Asalamu alikum Wa Rehmatullahi Wabarakatuh!

You are right brother. I agree with your point.

This is not about secularism, nor is there involved any case of liberal society. All I can see it is an anti-Islamic propaganda! Islam is a threat to their society according to them, whereas they fail to realize that Islam is just the opposite. It is a mercy and will prove to be, if they implement Islamic Shariah there.

Of course it has never been a "so-called threat" to their cultural heritage!
Because if it would have been, then the churches and pagodas etc would have been banned too!

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding

Except you weren't talking about minarets, but mosques.

No, I was talking about Minaret, not reading doesn't excuse you from making up stories and projecting them.. from the lowest common denominator you should be in keeping with the thread title!

But anyway. The actual point of my post was to use your own words against you in the hope that you would come to an understanding such language ('you are full of crap') really isn't all that pleasant when you are in the receiving end. I had hoped this would perhaps prevent you from using it in the future.

No, in fact your petty attempt and re-attempt only confirms the crap that is being peddled!-- and if nothing of substance then take some circuitous route that has nothing to do with the subject matter!

I guess that didn't quite work out . Just goes to show that fighting fire with fire is a losing strategy!

I don't feel like a loser.. I'd refrain from dragging me to the experiences of your own psyche..

all the best

format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme

Is it me, or does anyone else find it ironic how you posted astoundingly beautiful churches and then claim they were eyesores? You may be angry at the story, as am I, but this is not a Christian move and you don't need to post some amazingly beautiful churches in Egypt and complain about them to get your point across!
Also, I wouldn't call Egypt a 'Muslim' country, if only because so **** many of its people aren't actually Muslim. A 'Muslim majority' country would be a better phrase.

Also, to the poster before me, Indonesia is a very liberal country when it comes to religion. Anyone who thinks otherwise is silly.

I am not angry with anything.. I think the Egyptian 'majority' nationals and expats in keeping with their Muslim identity should lead by the swiss example and remove little bits of the churches here and there.. do we want the symbols of the crusade in 'Muslim majority lands'?

Do you find it absurd or are you a hypocrite?
Further this was meant a direct reply to the other fellow who seems to think that Christians of Egypt have it bad.. if you have never been then put up or shut up..
the reality paints a different picture from the sentiments you'd like to echo..

oh wo wu woe..

There has never been a Freedom of Speech when it concerned the Muslims!

Bans on Hijab in France is an eyeopener for those Muslims who still think that West is all about freedom!

It does give Freedom to others but when it comes to Muslims, it becomes "a threat to their culture and secularism blah-crap-blah"!

Don't they see the Christian nuns wearing a similar dress like Muslim ladies? Are are the people too blind to notice the Sikhs who are clearly representatives of their culture all the time?


As one brother pointed out before that this is only the beginning. Wait for the end people!

Do you know what "End" will be marked with? It will be marked with the demolishing of Masjid-e-Aqsa!

actually masjid al-aqsa will be 3amir insha'Allah.. the demolishing only marks the zenith of wickedness and its rise to power, but it will resolve with victory to Islam insha'Allah..

format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme

The crusades? What, you mean the Catholic crusaders that ended up killing thousands of Eastern Orthodox Christians who has just as much right to the land as their Muslim friends? The Copts are Eastern Orthodox, not Catholic, therefore their churches are not symbols of the crusades... the exact opposite in fact. Also, seeing as there ar far more Egyptian Christians than Swiss Muslims, the Egyptian authorities would find implementing such measures very hard. And no, I don't agree with the Swiss ban on minarets in any way, it is a massive blow for liberals such as myself.

Crusades as in the continuous military expeditions in the 11th to 13th centuries when Christian powers of Europe tried to recapture the Holy Land from the Muslims, surely it isn't difficult for you to open a real history book and read some history?.. It really wouldn't be that difficult to echo western hypocrisy in Egypt, govt. or not by sheer power of the people who are far divorced from the govt. .. however it wouldn't be Islamic to demolish other people's house of worship.. Therein lies the difference and there is where it always lay.
tolerance and freedom are Islamic virtues, they never have and never will be a western value.. and it doesn't matter what veil of neutrality or democracy the west hides behind, in truth, they have always been anything but, they are racists and fascists!

I fully agree that Christians in Egypt do not have it bad, they are in high government places and recieve equally as good education as Muslims in Egypt, as well as very good jobs. And I plan to go to Egypt next year, out of interest, what is the name of the first stunning church you posted? It is a fine example of holy architecture, and I would oh so love to go and worship there.

That church is the biggest in aswan.. you can learn more about it here

http://www.richard-seaman.com/Travel...out/index.html

format_quote Originally Posted by KAding

A ban on minarets in Switzerland will not 'end' with the destruction of the Al-Aqsa mosque, just like the banning churches in Saudi Arabia will not lead to the destruction of the St. Peters Church in Rome.

Ahan! U didn't understand properly what I said!

I didn't say that Masjid-e-Aqsa will be demolished tomorrow or some days after it! Masjid-e-Aqsa will be demolished though it may be after many, many years or maybe not that much late-who knows the exact time!

What i said was that the process has begun years ago and slowly slowly it will reach its climax when all the other nations will unite against us!

These smaller bans on Muslim's identity is just a very small part of their anti-Islamic propaganda.

format_quote Originally Posted by Supreme

What? You've just blindly ignored the fact I plainly stated that Eastern Orthodox Christians perished at the hands of the Catholic crusaders? Any 'real' history book will tell you the murders, desecrations and rapes tha took place in Constantinople against the Christians there by the Crusaders. Also, as far as i understand, the Swiis want to ban minarets. They don't want to demolish anything.

The purpose of the crusade is really all that matters.. it is like saying the holocaust was about ridding Germany of its gypsies.. casualties of war aren't the focus of it..
a minaret symbolizes the call to prayer.. what does banning it mean in your book or theirs? Your honesty here has to come into question.

Is this even worth responding too? That's like observing the sky to be blue yet claiming it to be green.

Perhaps the problem is that you suffer from color blindness? .. the sky appears to be blue as perceived by the human eye.. but that doesn't mean, that blue is its color!

Thank you Gosamer, I shall wiki it. From what I've researched, Egypt is the greatest place on Earth- baking hot with sunshine throughout the year, lovely beaches with warm crystal waters, ancient ruins with intriguing ancient history, beautiful holy places for Christians and Muslims and beautiful desert landscape. Unbeatable. It was a choicew between Egypt and Greece, and truthfully, Greece appears rather amateur.

Indeed, Mesopotamia, and its neighbors are the birth place of civilization, it makes sense that all Abrahamic religions are from there!

all the best

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Excellent article by Sheikh Yasir Qadhi: The Case of the Swiss Minarets

Read it!

[QUOTE=naidamar;1253386]You are talking out of your backside again.

Did you know that the holidays of all major religions are recognised as state holidays in Indonesia?. Yes, and that includes christmas, good friday, easter, the days of prophet Jesus pbuh resurrection and ascencion, Waisya' (the birthday of Buddha), Nyepi and galungan and Kuningan (Balinese Hindu holidays).

This I knew, I have some knowledge about South East Asia, I also have good friends from there.
These are good examples of tolerance, no one should deny.

Try to compare that with Western countries who are constantly boasting about their secularism and liberalism and freedom of this and that and yet recognise only christian holidays as state holidays, refusing to acknowledge other religious holidays, and as the latest case shows, refusing the rights of followers of other religion to build such minor religious thing such as minarets.

I'm afraid that You overreact, the "western" tolerance is sometimes pushed to silliness (remember how London mayor persuaded the citizens to fast during Ramadan?).

Did you know that there is a huge cathedral next to the Istiqlal mosque and a big protestant and anglican churches nearby? did you know that there are hundreds of thousands of churches and temples all over Indonesia?

These are good examples of tolerance.

Did you know that christians have been aggressively building churces in areas where there are extremely few christians, thus causing frictions with local residents?

I'm aware, but don't sometimes muslims in Europe, USA and Australia do the same. Wasn't the latest conflict about islamic school in Australia about this? Muslims wanted to build islamic centre in a area with... 50 muslims.

Did you know that christian missionaries have been using aggressive and deplorable tactics (bribing kids, spreading lies, etc) for years in areas where there are no christian in defiance to government rule, thus causing frictions with the local residents and governments?

You mean evangelicals? Protestans? They do the same to convert catholics in South America. Nothing new.

Despite Indonesia being the largest muslim country in the world, Indonesia do not implement sharia law (which I think we should by the way). And even under sharia law, people of different religions would still enjoy their rights to practice their religions anyway.

Good, I think that the future of Indonesia belongs to its citizens and no one else. You will decide what You think it's best.
Of course in my opinion whole Europe should back to Medival-type Christianitas state.