I have formed the view that a lot of Muslims living in the west would like to be governed by sharia law. In fact I seem to recall calls from some Muslims in the UK to be allowed to govern themselves by sharia law. Watching TV this morning and saw a report of the edict issued by the SAWT valley Taliban to judges and lawyers ordering them not to attend court telling them there is no place for them in sharia law (see above link) and I wondered how it would work in a non-tribal society. I can see that the SWAT area (apart from cell phones and kalashnikovs) looks and probably functions pretty much as it did in 7C Mecca and because of that it may be possible to function with sharia law but could it really work in a 21st century society? It starts by stopping the current legal structure (courts, judges etc) because now the local Imam is the judge. Next you scrap the ministry of the interior because the police service or whatever replaces it comes under the direction of the local imam. Now justice is dispensed according to the local Imams interpretation of the sharia law. I can’t believe that any educated 21st century person would want to live under such a nebulous, unstructured and unjust regime. I can’t believe that any educated female Muslim would want to live under a regime that would deny them all the freedoms they enjoy outside of such a system. If there’s anyone out there that would like to live under such a regime I’d love to hear your reasons.
and I believe I have told you repeatedly as a 'general rule' that if a female is an expert in her field then she is enough.. I am not sure what else you want? furthermore this isn't about favoring one party over another.. this is about establishing justice for the parties involved. The favor you seek to induce here is but of your own yearnings.. no where in the verse is the term 'favored' mentioned!
all the best
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
and I believe I have told you repeatedly as a 'general rule' that if a female is an expert in her field then she is enough.. I am not sure what else you want? furthermore this isn't about favoring one party over another.. this is about establishing justice for the parties involved. The favor you seek to induce here is but of your own yearnings.. no where in the verse is the term 'favored' mentioned!
all the best
It doesn't have to be mentiond by name. If I recall correctly, the bit about female witnesses who are experts in their fields isn't mentioned by name in the Quran or the Sunnah either.
Yes, both male and female experts' testimony is enough, but only men are favored in a field they generally outperform women in.
Ok, to return to my original question which you still haven't answered.
Two additional women are required in fields where men tend to excel over women. So in such cases men are favored over women (based on general differences, statistics etc).
And here's the question:
Why aren't women favored the same way in areas they tend to excel over men?
The Quran was revealed according to circumstances. For example, the verses dealing with men slandering women. those verses don't say that if women slandered men, they'd have to bring four witnesses or would be flogged 80 lashes but the law has been extended them.
yeah it needs to be mentioned by name, Islamic jurisprudence isn't subject to your whims or what you'd like to see in it.
If I recall correctly, the bit about female witnesses who are experts in their fields isn't mentioned by name in the Quran or the Sunnah either.
Must be mentioned in sunna else where from would the scholars come up with one woman expert in her field?
google some of Ansar's old posts and you'll find plenty such incidents!
Yes, both male and female experts' testimony is enough, but only men are favored in a field they generally outperform women in.
Again your useage of the term 'favored' is faulty and neither confirms to the truth or what is plainly mentioned. It is about keeping accurate record. If you'll read the Quran specifically suret Ar'Rahman you'd see keeping justice to the scale mentioned repeatedly in the beginning of the chapter not once not twice but thrice.. it must not denote favor, rather supreme importance?!
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Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
yeah it needs to be mentioned by name, Islamic jurisprudence isn't subject to your whims or what you'd like to see in it.
Must be mentioned in sunna else where from would the scholars come up with one woman expert in her field?
google some of Ansar's old posts and you'll find plenty such incidents!
Again your useage of the term 'favored' is faulty and neither confirms to the truth or what is plainly mentioned. It is about keeping accurate record. If you'll read the Quran specifically suret Ar'Rahman you'd see keeping justice to the scale mentioned repeatedly in the beginning of the chapter not once not twice but thrice.. it must not denote favor, rather supreme importance?!
Hi KAding, A degree of moderation? Please elaborate! I would have thought that if Shari'ah is moderated, then it is no longer Shari'ah, no?
Regards
I'm probably just going to repeat myself here, but, hey, that has never hurt anyone (as far as I know anyway) .
Only God knows the true nature of the Sha'ria, as humans it would seem to me we can only try to implement it as best as we can. In the end the Sha'ria will have to be implemented and run by human beings. Human beings that are either inclined towards moderation or towards more 'fundamentalist' interpretations. This is simply the nature of men and the nature of human culture.
There might well be just 'one' Islam and 'one' Shar'ia theologically, but in the end every human will put different accents and even make different calls on what Islamic law does or does not forbid, discourage or allow. Never mind the fact that EVERY political and judicial system will have to make compromises to function in the chaos that is human society and civilization (or the lack thereof!). There will always be pressures on such systems towards degree of pragmatism, when practical concerns will trump dogmatism/idealism.
the shari'a is dogmatic in that it is based on dogma, however that dogma itself is pragmatic. people's interpretations are going to differ, and that is allowed regardless of how many object/ed.
what about the freedom to wear hijab/niqab and cover the body including the head and face if a woman wants? in some countries, like France, women/girls aren't allwoed to go to school with head covers. isn't that an infringement on their freedom?
no apparently that's called democracy!
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I do not hate Islam or Muslims I hate intolerance, segregation and hypocrisy. I want to live in a country that promotes freedom, tolerance and understanding.
I worry about their interpretation of the sharia law and I worry that you believe that they will accept your interpretation.
Ya gna have to try alot harder to have me buy that one! You don’t hate Muslims and Islam as long as it conforms to how you believe it should be. Thats your prob, you want muslims to live by islam, the way you want it, not the way it is. For people like you, islam is your way or the highway. thats the loop whole you have right there! its not about the shariah laws being implemented in your counties. we are talking about the shariah being implemented in muslim countries! so kindly enlighten me as to what business what happens in a Muslim counties. if you dont like it, just rack off! not rocket science now is it.
if that was truly the case, than you would let us live by our laws without questioning them! not only that, you don't even have the proper integrity to genuinely reach such understanding/tolerance, etc. if that's what you were really after , then you would have posted in the "learn about Islam/discover Islam sections, not the owrld affairs!!! and who are you accusing of hypocrisy, and lack of understanding?! above all, you would first and foremost question your own society where sometimes animals seem to have more rights than humans!
oh sorry of course, you love islam and muslims!!!
Some of you here that say you want sharia law believe (niaively) that if and when it comes it’ll be YOUR interpretation of sharia law and not the Taliban’s interpretation – if you believe that you are deluding yourselves.
our understanding?! so now not having the Taliban understanding of the shariah is equated to our own understanding!
above all i bet half these sources that you quote dont even mentioned the reality! god knows what the story really is!
Muslims of Pakistan origin in the UK move towards that stricter interpretation and (for example as was reported) impose stricter rules on what their women can and cannot do.
i dont get what your point is! we have been going over this for past how many pages now :$
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Are you suggesting that questioning aspects of or interpretations of the sharia law makes Muslims look bad and uncivilised?
....there's a fine line between questioning and attacking!
Last edited by Muezzin; 03-26-2009 at 11:37 AM.
Reason: removed insult
...desperate for husnul-khitaam...
please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.
....there's a fine line between questioning and attacking!
I say I have questioned aspects of sharia law; you say I have attacked it. Attack is an emotive word with meanings ranging from a violent physical assault to work with purpose or even criticise strongly. If you mean by criticising something strongly I have attacked some interpretations of sharia law I would have to agree. If you are suggesting I have attacked with hostility I would disagree. But this is semantics, the question is, before you criticised me of ‘attacking’ did you have clear focus on something in particular that I said that was said with hostility and did you take into consideration that there are multiple versions/interpretations of what is called sharia law and which version was I ‘attacking’? Or do you believe that anyone who questions any aspect of Islam is ‘attacking’? Or is it simply that the red mist of anger clouds your judgement?
Last edited by Muezzin; 03-26-2009 at 11:38 AM.
Reason: removed insult from quoted text to reflect identical amendment in original post being quoted
I'm probably just going to repeat myself here, but, hey, that has never hurt anyone (as far as I know anyway) .
Only God knows the true nature of the Sha'ria, as humans it would seem to me we can only try to implement it as best as we can. In the end the Sha'ria will have to be implemented and run by human beings. Human beings that are either inclined towards moderation or towards more 'fundamentalist' interpretations. This is simply the nature of men and the nature of human culture.
There might well be just 'one' Islam and 'one' Shar'ia theologically, but in the end every human will put different accents and even make different calls on what Islamic law does or does not forbid, discourage or allow. Never mind the fact that EVERY political and judicial system will have to make compromises to function in the chaos that is human society and civilization (or the lack thereof!). There will always be pressures on such systems towards degree of pragmatism, when practical concerns will trump dogmatism/idealism.
If you read about Sharia, you'll see it's procedural like you wouldn't believe. So many criteria have to be fulfilled before the law can even come into force in a state.
However, it does indeed allow for pragmatism - as in the time of the Caliph Umar (RA) when he suspended corporal punishment for theft during a famine. It wouldn't be fair to punish people so in such circumstances.
But there's pragmatism and there's deliberate political distortions, which I readily accept certain groups will attempt in their interpretations of Sharia law.
I'm not saying when and if it comes into force, it will be the true interpretation of Sharia. I'm saying I would only accept a true interpretation of Sharia. If it's forced on a populace, it just won't work.
I say I have questioned aspects of sharia law; you say I have attacked it. Attack is an emotive word with meanings ranging from a violent physical assault to work with purpose or even criticise strongly. If you mean by criticising something strongly I have attacked some interpretations of sharia law I would have to agree. If you are suggesting I have attacked with hostility I would disagree. But this is semantics, the question is, before you criticised me of ‘attacking’ did you have clear focus on something in particular that I said that was said with hostility and did you take into consideration that there are multiple versions/interpretations of what is called sharia law and which version was I ‘attacking’? Or do you believe that anyone who questions any aspect of Islam is ‘attacking’? Or is it simply that the red mist of anger clouds your judgement?
Now in the same way, try to discuss the statement 'ignoring answers'.
This is such an tiring thread, over and over again the same statements are thrown, people don't bother. This could have been a good dialogue.
“If only I had checked myself”
—
Guy who wrecked himself
True leaders don't create followers...
.... They create new leaders.
Now in the same way, try to discuss the statement 'ignoring answers'.
This is such an tiring thread, over and over again the same statements are thrown, people don't bother. This could have been a good dialogue.
Please forgive me if I have not responded to something you posted, it wasn't done intentionally, it was just got a little frenetic at one time and I must have missed your post - sorry
. . . . .Just had a look back and I still couldn't see your post !!
Please forgive me if I have not responded to something you posted, it wasn't done intentionally, it was just got a little frenetic at one time and I must have missed your post - sorry
It wasn't about me... I meant posts of other, irritated members. But thank you for being polite. I hope the above applies to most members who haven't gotten any reply to their post/s.
“If only I had checked myself”
—
Guy who wrecked himself
True leaders don't create followers...
.... They create new leaders.
I read the article but I'm not sure I understood the point the author was trying to make. Is it simply that 'western women are not happy because they have too much freedom?
Well, its in your opinion a freedom, but actually its the over used by the society, western women are used like products and they are thinking that they have been given "too much freedom" as you might guess......but in reality their freedom is taken away from them because they are used by others. Its like they are not own themselves
I would like to know your view about the freedom that the woman should be given
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Hi thanks for your views,
Can I ask which country you are living in?
western women are used like products and they are thinking that they have been given "too much freedom" as you might guess......but in reality their freedom is taken away from them because they are used by others. Its like they are not own themselves
I really don’t understand where you get this idea from. I am a native Briton and I can tell you that the law of Britain grants absolute equality between men and women and no man can compel a woman to do anything. A hundred years back a wife was the property of her husband, fifty years back the woman’s marriage vows were to love, honour and OBEY her husband. None of that exists any more and there is no law or custom that supports any person to compel or coerce any woman to do anything she didn’t want to do. If you think that women here take their clothes off (or whatever) because they are compelled by some man you are very wrong.
format_quote Originally Posted by SAYA
I would like to know your view about the freedom that the woman should be given
I believe that men and women should be equal, one should not have the power to compel the other to do anything, and one should not have less freedom or less authority than the other. Without equality there is no freedom.
I recall your earlier post and I felt your anger towards me which I believe is unjustified. I started this thread with a question after watching the news and seeing a report from a region of Pakistan which was under sharia law. I saw two 10 year old girls being interviewed as they sat on the rubble that was once their school. The interview asked them how the implementation of sharia law had affected them. The first girl said that her father had bought her a burka, she doesn’t want to wear it but her father is frightened of the Taliban; the other girl said that education was her only hope of a better future and she would now have to stay in her home. The reporter also interviewed a 14 year old boy in hospital who had been shot by the Taliban for playing football. A picture formed in my head of a society run by men who want their women to remain uneducated, in the home or covered from head to toe and I niaively thought that women would not want to live under such a regime. Sixteen pages later and I now have the impression that some women do and some others see (or hope that) the Taliban’s interpretation of sharia as some aberration that’ll go away and be replaced by some other model.
By asking such questions I have been accused of attacking Islam and of trying to make Islamic teaching look uncivilised. I am not trying to achieve anything other than understanding. Again some Muslims can’t understand why someone like me who are not going to convert to Islam is spending his time trying to understand Islam and Muslims. Why do I persist – because there are 2 million Muslims living in my country and I believe it is imperative that we find a way to live together peacefully and I believe that can only be attained through understanding and that ‘understanding’ goes both ways. I have also been accused of hating Islam of course I do not; I am however worried by some Muslims’ interpretations of Islamic teachings, I do find repugnant those how advocate mindless violence, segregation, racism and hypocrisy.
I recall your earlier post and I felt your anger towards me which I believe is unjustified. I started this thread with a question after watching the news and seeing a report from a region of Pakistan which was under sharia law. I saw two 10 year old girls being interviewed as they sat on the rubble that was once their school. The interview asked them how the implementation of sharia law had affected them. The first girl said that her father had bought her a burka, she doesn’t want to wear it but her father is frightened of the Taliban; the other girl said that education was her only hope of a better future and she would now have to stay in her home. The reporter also interviewed a 14 year old boy in hospital who had been shot by the Taliban for playing football. A picture formed in my head of a society run by men who want their women to remain uneducated, in the home or covered from head to toe and I niaively thought that women would not want to live under such a regime. Sixteen pages later and I now have the impression that some women do and some others see (or hope that) the Taliban’s interpretation of sharia as some aberration that’ll go away and be replaced by some other model.
By asking such questions I have been accused of attacking Islam and of trying to make Islamic teaching look uncivilised. I am not trying to achieve anything other than understanding. Again some Muslims can’t understand why someone like me who are not going to convert to Islam is spending his time trying to understand Islam and Muslims. Why do I persist – because there are 2 million Muslims living in my country and I believe it is imperative that we find a way to live together peacefully and I believe that can only be attained through understanding and that ‘understanding’ goes both ways. I have also been accused of hating Islam of course I do not; I am however worried by some Muslims’ interpretations of Islamic teachings, I do find repugnant those how advocate mindless violence, segregation, racism and hypocrisy.
I really don’t understand where you get this idea from.
Really?? Do you need more evidence? Look at the advertisements there…see how they are treat their women, I have been in UK twice and the most thing made me feel sick is the pictures of the advertisements there. Or walking around in parks and see each man holding a woman in his hand as if he is holding a piece of accessory…I remember reading an article in a newspaper long time ago about how they need to change the image of the woman in the west to make her more effective rather than being a necklace in the nick of the man, they even arrange a new kind of competition for women to vote for the best housewife who is very caring about her family and very educated, instead of being very sexy and going around in the evaluation of the competition naked. They themselves got sick of those stupid competitions that treat women as naked dulls to choose who the best one is………so just have a look again at your media and you will know what I am meaning.
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I am a native Briton and I can tell you that the law of Britain grants absolute equality between men and women and no man can compel a woman to do anything. A hundred years back a wife was the property of her husband, fifty years back the woman’s marriage vows were to love, honour and OBEY her husband. None of that exists any more and there is no law or custom that supports any person to compel or coerce any woman to do anything she didn’t want to do. If you think that women here take their clothes off (or whatever)
I know what you are trying to say in terms of quality……. but I don’t see that women are treated with respect in the western society, you can't say that I am just throwing words randomly because I saw that with my own eyes
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
because they are compelled by some man you are very wrong.
Many workplaces there force women to wear a specific kind of clothes, if they did do that they are fired!! So, is that freedom???
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I believe that men and women should be equal, one should not have the power to compel the other to do anything, and one should not have less freedom or less authority than the other. Without equality there is no freedom.
Can you elaborate your view please instead of talking too general, so I can understand what exactly you trying to reach?
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I recall your earlier post and I felt your anger towards me which I believe is unjustified.
.
I will be very direct here, I was angry at the beginning from your way of saying that Muslim females here are frightened to say their opinions about the Shariah laws, I hate the way you throw your assumptions and trying to talk in the place of the others
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
I started this thread with a question after watching the news and seeing a report from a region of Pakistan which was under sharia law. I saw two 10 year old girls being interviewed as they sat on the rubble that was once their school. The interview asked them how the implementation of sharia law had affected them. The first girl said that her father had bought her a burka, she doesn’t want to wear it but her father is frightened of the Taliban; the other girl said that education was her only hope of a better future and she would now have to stay in her home. The reporter also interviewed a 14 year old boy in hospital who had been shot by the Taliban for playing football.
I don’t know each single details about Taliban and what they are doing there, but if you look at your hand, you will find your finger are not equal!, don’t generalize something on the whole religion. If a boy had been shot because he played football then this is pure injustices, why he would be punished for that? And if that’s true, I would say that Taliban is doing wrong here for hurting him because he played football like any other child
If a father is forbidden his daughter from going to school then I will say that he is very wrong, because islam is encouraging both men and women to go and ask for knowledge…..if you want I will quote the hadeeth and the Ayahs from Quran that said that.
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
A picture formed in my head of a society run by men who want their women to remain uneducated, in the home or covered from head to toe and I niaively thought that women would not want to live under such a regime. Sixteen pages later and I now have the impression that some women do and some others see (or hope that) the Taliban’s interpretation of sharia as some aberration that’ll go away and be replaced by some other model.
I am a female that going around covered from head to toe alhumdulilah and I feel that I am treated in my society as a queen. I dont feel that being covered is preventing me to be effective person as I stated in my previous post. If I pass by a place fill with men and there is only a small space for me to pass then all the men standing there will move aside to give me more space to pass with a looks full with respect, even if they were not good muslims. For me, wearing hijab is my proud!! its not like the dark image you have in your mind.
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Again some Muslims can’t understand why someone like me who are not going to convert to Islam is spending his time trying to understand Islam and Muslims.
Its your freedom to be muslim or not, there is no obligation on that, you are human being that understand what's going on around you, you can distinguish between the right and the wrong. So its your choice at the end.
I don’t expect people to say that I am planning to convert to Christianity when I am studying it now!!!!
format_quote Originally Posted by Thinker
Why do I persist – because there are 2 million Muslims living in my country and I believe it is imperative that we find a way to live together peacefully and I believe that can only be attained through understanding and that ‘understanding’ goes both ways. I have also been accused of hating Islam of course I do not; I am however worried by some Muslims’ interpretations of Islamic teachings, I do find repugnant those how advocate mindless violence, segregation, racism and hypocrisy.
Again, don’t judge the religion based on its followers only, you will end up have nothing if you do…………..because people are not equal in their behaviors, some have the right understanding of their religions, some others are bringing rules by their own and claiming that its Islam teaching
I know what you are trying to say in terms of quality……. but I don’t see that women are treated with respect in the western society, you can't say that I am just throwing words randomly because I saw that with my own eyes
Can you honestly say that in all women in all Muslim areas are treated in the way that the Quran dictates?
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