Why not ban full veil, says French government spokesman

**Uthman** · 06-22-2009

France's ability to reconcile secularism with religious diversity came under fresh scrutiny today after the government said it would not rule out banning Muslim women from wearing the full Islamic veil.

Five years after a law was passed forbidding children from wearing the headscarf or any other "conspicuous" religious symbol in schools, the government indicated it was prepared to wade into another thorny row over the state's right to tell individuals what not to wear.

Speaking after a group of MPs requested an inquiry into the "degrading" use of the burka and niqab, government spokesman Luc Chatel said it was important to establish to what extent women's rights were being compromised by the garments.

"If it were determined that wearing the burka is a submissive act, and that it is contrary to republican principles, naturally parliament would have to drawn the necessary conclusions," he said. When asked whether that could mean bringing in legislation to ensure an outright ban, Chatel answered: "Why not?"

Although there are no official figures, several thousand women are believed to wear the full veil in France, and their appearance has long caused consternation among the upholders of the country's staunchly secular values. Last year a Moroccan woman was refused French citizenship after social services found she wore a burka and was living "in total submission" to her husband.

The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."

For a ban to be implemented, an investigation would first have to be opened and its results studied for any sign of incompatibility between secular values and the use of the full veil. President Sarkozy, who recently defended France's division between the state and religion during a press conference with Barack Obama, is understood to be in favour of the issue being explored.

Sarkozy's leftwing urban policies secretary, herself a Muslim and former president of a women's rights group, today gave her support to "a total ban" on the burka. "I am for the banning of this coffin which kills basic freedoms," Fadela Amara told Le Parisien newspaper. "This debate has to clear the way to a law which protects women."

This point of view, however, is not shared by everyone. Muslim leaders have urged politicians not to create more tension between communities.

"To raise the subject like this, via a parliamentary committee, is a way of stigmatising Islam and the Muslims of France," said Mohammed Moussaouni, head of the French Council for the Muslim Faith. He said the full veil remained a marginal choice for most Muslim women, and such a provocative move threatened to alienate those more moderate in their practices.

His plea for the motion to be left alone was echoed by the immigration minister, Eric Besson, who said that, since 2004, France had "managed to strike a balance, and it would be dangerous to call that into question".

Source: The Guardian

**- IqRa -** · 06-22-2009

Personally I think it is pointless to force someone to follow Islamic values, whether Muslim or non-Muslim.

What should happen is that they should be told the outcome of not wearing the Hijaab and the reward for wearing the Hijaab, and then they can decide for themselves. Saheeh?

**GuestFellow** · 06-22-2009

Originally Posted by T.I.A

What should happen is that they should be told the outcome of not wearing the Hijaab and the reward for wearing the Hijaab, and then they can decide for themselves. Saheeh?

Yeah I agree. ^_^

**Uthman** · 06-22-2009

The French government is considering the ban on the premise that the Burqa may violate women's rights. While I have no doubt that there are some women in France who may be forced by their husbands or their families to wear it, it is also a fact that many women choose to wear it of their own accord, seeing it as their religious obligation and finding it to be a source of liberation as opposed to oppression.

Thus, I would say that the Burqa in and of itself cannot be said to violate women's rights but only when it is forced upon them can it be considered a violation. For this reason, the French government should not ban the wearing of the Burqa.

**Abdul Fattah** · 06-22-2009

Originally Posted by T.I.A

Whoah... strong use of word there. How exactly is it bidah?

I'm not saying that it is. I'm beyond bothering making statements. I prefer asking questions.
Did it exist at the time of the prophet (pbuh)?
Does it go beyond the traditional rule/guidelines (covering up more then is seen in the sunnah, like the eyes)?
If both replies are yes, would that be sufficient ground to judge it as bidah?

**Al-Zaara** · 06-22-2009

In the Finnish Hesari(HS)-news they said the following:

Muslimien Kansallisen Federaation varapresidentti Merzak El-Bekkay muistutti Libération-lehdessä hyvin pienen ryhmän käyttävän burkhaa. Hänestä Ranskan pitäisi huivikiistelyn sijasta keskittyä työllisyyden talousongelmien voittamiseen.

Rough translation:

De la Fédération nationale des musulmans, FNMF's vicepreseident Merzak El Bekkay reminded in the Liberation-magazine that a very small group wear the burqa. He thinks France should instead of this veil-debate concentrate on defeating the economical problems.

I think the same.

**Beardo** · 06-22-2009

You know, it's an honor for us to proclaim our faith. And it's of high importance to wear Hijaab and the veil. The hijaab is widely known as compulsory. However, it's not JUST that.

Do we obey the traffic laws? Do we make a good impression on ourselves? Do people say "Muslims are the only ones that actually follow the rules!"

I was in the car and an uncle was driving us to the Masjid. Alhamdulillah, Allah reward him! But it's not just going to the Masjid... Even on the way to the masjid there is reward, but you dont want to ruin or decrease the reward by nto following the rules of the land. And it's not just you that'll be affected, but all the Muslims....

Did that make sense?

**Yanal** · 06-22-2009

Why do muslims stay there regardless of the circumstances?The Burqa has not been banned in the US even though they thought us "muslims" did the 9/11 and yet many Muslims wear the Burqa. One incident I remember that during Barack Obamas speech two muslim ladies in the Burqa sat at backstage so they could stay away from fitnah but for the safety of President Barack Obama they forcefully removed them.

Couldn't they have asked them to leave? Why does France think of all countries they are special and can ban the Burqa. Why is the Burqa always questioned while the Sikhs holding knives and wearing a turban not? Dont you think we are being discriminated?

**The_Prince** · 06-22-2009

PARIS – President Nicolas Sarkozy said the Muslim burqa would not be welcome in France, calling the full-body religious gown a sign of the "debasement" of women.

In the first presidential address to parliament in 136 years, Sarkozy faced critics who fear the burqa issue could stigmatize France's Muslims and said he supported banning the garment from being worn in public.

"In our country, we cannot accept that women be prisoners behind a screen, cut off from all social life, deprived of all identity," Sarkozy said to extended applause at the Chateau of Versailles, southwest of Paris.

"The burqa is not a religious sign, it's a sign of subservience, a sign of debasement — I want to say it solemnly," he said. "It will not be welcome on the territory of the French Republic."

Dozens of legislators have called for creating a commission to study a possible ban in France, where there is a small but growing trend of wearing the full-body garment despite a 2004 law forbidding it from being worn in public schools.

France has Western Europe's largest Muslim population, an estimated 5 million people, and the 2004 law sparked fierce debate both at home and abroad.

Even the French government has been divided over the issue, with Immigration Minister Eric Besson saying a full ban would only "create tensions," while junior minister for human rights Rama Yade said she was open to a ban if it was aimed at protecting women forced to wear the burqa.

The terms "burqa" and "niqab" often are used interchangeably in France. The former refers to a full-body covering worn largely in Afghanistan with only a mesh screen over the eyes, whereas the latter is a full-body veil, often in black, with slits for the eyes.

A leading French Muslim group, the French Council for the Muslim Religion, has warned against studying the burqa, saying it would "stigmatize" Muslims.

Sarkozy was due to host a state dinner Monday with Sheik Hamad Bin Jassem Al Thani of Qatar, where women wear Islamic head coverings in public — whether while shopping or driving cars.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/eu_france_sarkozy_burqa

this shows the disgrace of the Muslim world. here you have this french snail saying the Muslim burqa is not allowed or welcome in France, yet our leaders will openly welcome this snail into our country, and go have dinner with him!

why dont Muslim leaders come out and say western women attire is also not welcomed in our countries. since sarkozy said how he feels about the burqa, let me say how i feel about the type of clothes that many western women wear: the type of clothes that western women wear is a sign of harlotness, exploitation, and being meat for the men to look at, and i and most Muslims sure as heck dont want this type of thing in our countries.

**Yanal** · 06-22-2009

Why do muslims stay there regardless of the circumstances?The Burqa has not been banned in the US even though they thought us "muslims" did the 9/11 and yet many Muslims wear the Burqa. One incident I remember that during Barack Obamas speech two muslim ladies in the Burqa sat at backstage so they could stay away from fitnah but for the safety of President Barack Obama they forcefully removed them.

Couldn't they have asked them to leave? Why does France think of all countries they are special and can ban the Burqa. Why is the Burqa always questioned while the Sikhs holding knives and wearing a turban not? Dont you think we are being discriminated?

**Yanal** · 06-22-2009

The women is a sweet thing.If a sweet thing is left uncovered,swarms if dirty creatures are liable to prey upon it and corrupt it. Similiar in the case of a woman. The current wave of rape incidents in the regions where public exposure of women prevails,streghtens this argument beyond any doubt. For this reason the Holy Prophet(PBUH) instructed the women to observe veil. Allahs Apostle also said " When a girl reaches menstrual time(attains maturity) it is improper that any part of her body should except such and such exposed. He hinted at her face and palms.
(Abu Dawud)

Abu Huraira also reported that the messanger of Allah(PBUH) said : One type of the denizens of hell would be the women who would be dressed but appear to be naked would be inclined to evil and make their husbands incline towards it. They shall not enter Paradise. They would not be smelt from such and such distance.
(Muslim)

This is proof if our wives do not wear niqaab we will suffer with them in hell. May Allah save us.

**Abdul Fattah** · 06-22-2009

selam aleykum
Akhi, think you're confusing hijab with niqaab
Hijab is mandatory for muslim woman, niqaab is not, in fact during hajj it is even forbidden. So it's certainly not the case that woman who don't wear niqaab will end up in hell because of that. And Allah subhana wa t'ala knows best.

**Zafran** · 06-22-2009

Originally Posted by Foxhole

Agreed?

Theres actually a difference between 2 countries - Saudi arabia isnt found on the principles of liberty, Fratenity and Freedom - its actually found on the Saud Family - France is being hypocritical by its own values.

secodanly the way a muslim defines freedom (to practice his/her own religion freely) and the way the French define freedom are 2 very different things.

Thats way the French should change there principles if they want to impose there own views on other people - its simple.

**Danah** · 06-22-2009

The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party,

What a tolerable view!!!.....Good for you France

since they are on it, why not come to women houses and chose what colors they will wear from their dresses closets?? <_<

That is the democracy and tolerance Europe always brag about!!!

**Amadeus85** · 06-22-2009

Originally Posted by Uthmān

The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."

Nothing new from them.

**Zafran** · 06-22-2009

The Communist MP who led the call this week for an inquiry, André Gerin, denounced the garments as walking prisons. In his request, backed by 57 other MPs, mostly from Nicolas Sarkozy's centre-right UMP party, he said: "The sight of these imprisoned women is already intolerable to us when they come from Iran, Afghanistan or Saudi Arabia … It is totally unacceptable on French soil."

wow thats pure colonistic rhetoric - they actually think they are saving these women. What do they think of imprisoned Bikini women.

**Whatsthepoint** · 06-22-2009

No such ban is necessary. All religious symbols are already banned in schools and probably other public places as well and private businesses have the right to dismiss women for wearing the regular veil.

**ragdollcat1982** · 06-22-2009

Originally Posted by Guestfellow

Y

I don't like what Saudi Arabia does sometimes. For example, I dislike how Christians are persecuted in that country.

.

I agree with you 100% Fellow. One thing I do not understand is the ban on women driving. I know their are some religiious rulings involved wanting to guard a womans modesty, but how is guarding her modesty to have her in a car alone with a non mahram employee ? I have read that a person can be arrested and executed for possesing a Bible on the charge that they are trying to convert Muslims. There are no churches allowed and even the right to private worship is not protected or ensured. I know that in the Quran Jews and Christians are guarenteed protection and freedom to practice their faith in an Islamic state, yet in numerous Muslim countries they are denied that right. I would be outraged if Muslim women in America were banned from wearing their hijabs as I wear one as well

and I view any infringement on freedom of religion offensive and clearly that is going on in France .

**ragdollcat1982** · 06-22-2009

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint

private businesses have the right to dismiss women for wearing the regular veil.

Not in America, that would be a classic 1st amendment violation. An employer can make the woman tuck in her hijab so it want get caught on anything and mandate that it match the uniform, other than that they cant fire her legally.

**Zafran** · 06-22-2009

Thats because Saudi arabia is what it is Saudi Arabia.

**ragdollcat1982** · 06-23-2009

Originally Posted by Zafran

Thats because Saudi arabia is what it is Saudi Arabia.

It does appear though that Saudi Arabia at times puts more emphasis on tribal customs than Islamic ones. People of the Book are guarenteed protection and freedom to practice their religion without fear of persecution, this is not the case in SA.