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View Poll Results: Would you like to see Abbas and Netanyahu come to agreement on a two-state solution?

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  • Yes

    15 62.50%
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Peace in Palestine?

  1. #1
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    Peace in Palestine? (OP)


    Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu and Palestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas agree to deal within a year. It is assumed that any such deal would result in a two-state solution in which both a Palestinian state and Israel were seen as legitimate by each other, in addition a number of other very thorny and complicated issues would also have to be worked out.


    If you would like to see this accomplished, what do you think it will take from each side to make this a reality?

    If you are against it, what are your objections and why?

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    جوري's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

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    format_quote Originally Posted by titus View Post
    Since refuse to answer the question I will answer it for you. He, his family, and all the Jews were told to leave, convert or die by their Muslim rulers.

    After leaving his choices were pretty simple. Either Christian Europe, in which Jews were persecuted horribly, or another Muslim land in which Jews were merely looked down upon as second class citizens. He chose the lesser of the two evils.

    Now if his choices had been between Egypt of the 12th century or Europe of the 21st century which do you think he would have chosen? Based on the way that Jews are treated the answer would most likely be modern Europe.

    Take a look at the text you posted and look at the ambiguity. He is saying that his current Muslim rulers gave the Jews some autonomy while the Christian rulers gave them none. That is a far cry from any form equality. Sure, Muslim lands were, on the whole, more tolerant than Christian nations at the time but it was a harmony based on Muslim power and non-Muslim second class citizenship with religious minorities having little or no better options.
    Those who are unequal wouldn't be able to travel freely from Muslim land to the next, live off its riches, rule by their own books, and write that which mocks those who have welcomed them. You fail to tell us where Maimonides was exiled, was he exiled to Europe? I believe he left Spain to Morocco and then Egypt etc.

    if you want to talk about lack of equality, I believe Jews had more rights in Muslim lands, than Muslims currently do in the 'civilized secular west'

    I'd actually take that kind of equality any day..

    try ruling by sharia'a law in any court in a matter concerning only Muslims and let's see a mob seen and hate filled sentiments out..

    pls. don't tickle me and do reference your information, there is something to be said of historical reference, than a cropped up website to suit the political tide!

    all the best
    Peace in Palestine?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Peace in Palestine?


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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    format_quote Originally Posted by titus View Post
    Since refuse to answer the question I will answer it for you. He, his family, and all the Jews were told to leave, convert or die by their Muslim rulers.

    After leaving his choices were pretty simple. Either Christian Europe, in which Jews were persecuted horribly, or another Muslim land in which Jews were merely looked down upon as second class citizens. He chose the lesser of the two evils.

    Now if his choices had been between Egypt of the 12th century or Europe of the 21st century which do you think he would have chosen? Based on the way that Jews are treated the answer would most likely be modern Europe.

    Take a look at the text you posted and look at the ambiguity. He is saying that his current Muslim rulers gave the Jews some autonomy while the Christian rulers gave them none. That is a far cry from any form equality. Sure, Muslim lands were, on the whole, more tolerant than Christian nations at the time but it was a harmony based on Muslim power and non-Muslim second class citizenship with religious minorities having little or no better options.
    Whao calm down there son, before you fall off your horse. Let's look at today than shall we, and how Palestinians are being treated, as that's the subject. While the Zionists can't kill them outright, they do so once the opportunity arises (Gaza war) and other than that, they are not even treated as second-class citizens, but rather being kicked out of their homes and having them destroyed and replaced by homes for Jews. Muslims are treated the same all over in the west and viewed as terrorists and what else, because of how the media portrays them and what their leaders do. There are a lot of public and open racists, and nothing is done to them, even though they clearly provoke with what they say (people like Nick Griffin).
    Last edited by -Fallen Angel-; 10-02-2010 at 07:54 PM.

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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    format_quote Originally Posted by -Fallen Angel- View Post
    Muslims are treated the same all over in the west .
    What do you man when youTo say that Muslims are treated the same all over in the west? Are we to read this in the context of what is happening in Israel/Palestine? Surely you don't mean that in the US, Britian, Germany, Sweden, or Canada Muslims are kicked out of their homes and then those homes are destroyed and replaced by homes for Jews. Yet that is what your wrote. Did you mean for the above paragraph to be understood that way?

  6. #84
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    Whao calm down there son, before you fall off your horse. Let's look at today than shall we, and how Palestinians are being treated, as that's the subject. While the Zionists can't kill them outright, they do so once the opportunity arises (Gaza war) and other than that, they are not even treated as second-class citizens, but rather being kicked out of their homes and having them destroyed and replaced by homes for Jews. Muslims are treated the same all over in the west and viewed as terrorists and what else, because of how the media portrays them and what their leaders do.
    You will not see me apologizing for the Israelis and the way they have treated the Palestinians. You won't, though, catch me saying that if the Palestinians took over that the Jews would be treated with respect as equals. You will find it almost impossible to find a group of people that hate another group more, as a whole, than Muslims in the Middle East hate, mistrust and despise Jews. To argue that Jews would be happy under any form of Palestinian rule is a pipe dream, and bringing up a whitewashed and inaccurate past of "Jews living happily under Muslim rule" is extremely counterproductive and completely wrong.

    I would rather be a Muslim in the US today than a Jew in Egypt in the 12th century. Few who know their history can deny that there is hardly any comparison between the two.

    You fail to tell us where Maimonides was exiled, was he exiled to Europe?
    Read my post again. It is fairly clear that he went to Muslim lands and not Europe. I will try to be more explicit in my descriptions next time for you.

    Those who are unequal wouldn't be able to travel freely from Muslim land to the next, live off its riches, rule by their own books, and write that which mocks those who have welcomed them.
    Unequal does not equal slavery. You can be a second class citizen and still be allowed to travel and move around and be allowed some freedoms.

    Don't make it seem, though, that Jews ruled themselves and had complete autonomy. They had some allowances in policing themselves, but if it in any way involved a Muslim then it was a Muslim court that made the decision. The Jews only had as much rope as the Muslim leaders allowed them to have, and on more than one occasion they used that rope to hang the Jews with.

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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    format_quote Originally Posted by titus View Post
    Read my post again. It is fairly clear that he went to Muslim lands and not Europe. I will try to be more explicit in my descriptions next time for you.
    Oh so he did go to Muslim lands and was welcome there and even went on to write about it, along side with other crap he wrote if we are to take his account truthfully and well why shouldn't we?


    Unequal does not equal slavery. You can be a second class citizen and still be allowed to travel and move around and be allowed some freedoms.
    Well I can tell you right now, that we can't govern by Islamic sharia'a law amongst Muslims in the free west as the Jews were able to do in Muslim lands!
    Don't make it seem, though, that Jews ruled themselves and had complete autonomy. They had some allowances in policing themselves, but if it in any way involved a Muslim then it was a Muslim court that made the decision. The Jews only had as much rope as the Muslim leaders allowed them to have, and on more than one occasion they used that rope to hang the Jews with.
    That is your opinion and history has a different tale to tell!

    all the best
    Peace in Palestine?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Peace in Palestine?


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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    What do you man when youTo say that Muslims are treated the same all over in the west? Are we to read this in the context of what is happening in Israel/Palestine? Surely you don't mean that in the US, Britian, Germany, Sweden, or Canada Muslims are kicked out of their homes and then those homes are destroyed and replaced by homes for Jews. Yet that is what your wrote. Did you mean for the above paragraph to be understood that way?
    By that i meant they are treated like s***. While it's not made public, i personally know some people who have lived in the US and faced abuse, and i know of many people who live in the UK, and have faced abuse. It's all to do with how the Government and Media portrays Muslims and their image, only trying to destroy it. I suggest you look at this, that's an example of what i mean.

    format_quote Originally Posted by titus View Post
    You will not see me apologizing for the Israelis and the way they have treated the Palestinians. You won't, though, catch me saying that if the Palestinians took over that the Jews would be treated with respect as equals. You will find it almost impossible to find a group of people that hate another group more, as a whole, than Muslims in the Middle East hate, mistrust and despise Jews. To argue that Jews would be happy under any form of Palestinian rule is a pipe dream, and bringing up a whitewashed and inaccurate past of "Jews living happily under Muslim rule" is extremely counterproductive and completely wrong.
    That's pretty obvious, and there are more than one reasons for this. Jews and Muslims have lived fine before, is it really hard for it to happen again, regardless of whose in power? The simple answer is yes, and an example of that is Israel today. Nobody asked you to apologise for the actions of Zionists today and it is clear that one group would not want to live under the rule of another, especially if the their beliefs are different. It would be like the US population, acustomed to "democracy", going and living in a "communist" state (China for example). As for your statement of "You will find it almost impossible to find a group of people that hate another group more, as a whole, than Muslims in the Middle East hate, mistrust and despise Jews.", i'm sorry, but that's just total and utter horse excrement. Yea boy keep reciting what the media and your leader(s) are telling you. If you're gonna debate with what you see on tv then you're better off going elseware to discuss such topics. It would be ok if you're open to new ideas and possibilities, or have an ear open to hear others but you just make acusations, which are what's said on the tv and we all know all that is a lie, made to destroy Muslims' image, and make the corporations $$$.
    Peace.
    Last edited by -Fallen Angel-; 10-02-2010 at 08:44 PM.

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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    format_quote Originally Posted by -Fallen Angel- View Post
    By that i meant they are treated like s***.
    This can be true. Not everywhere, and not all the time, and certainly not by everyone. But even a single occurance is wrong, and I know that there are much more than single occurances.

    While it's not made public, i personally know some people who have lived in the US and faced abuse, and i know of many people who live in the UK, and have faced abuse. It's all to do with how the Government and Media portrays Muslims and their image, only trying to destroy it.
    The media also helps to encourage better dialogue between Muslims and non-Muslims and contributes to better understanding that benefits all. The following show was the prime time offering of ABC-TV Friday night: What Is Islam? Questions and Answers.

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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    I didn't read all the posts in this thread, it's so lengthy. But I want to share my thoughts on Peace in Palestine, I think the Palestinians should leave the land as it will only cost them their lives. They should migrate to other Arab countries and other Arab countries should take their part in this and should give instant citizenships to Palestinians as Israel does for Jews across the world. Come on, it has been prophesied that they will come back and live in Bilad Canaan and they are doing it and it is only the Palestinian Muslims who are suffering.
    PLEASE HAVE YOUR SAY.

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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    ^Migrate then what? what will happen to masjid al-Aqsaa?

    stay, i say. al-Quds is the love of the shuhadaa.

    realistically speaking, is someone was to invade your home, you're going to pick yourself up and move out? i dont believe this.
    Peace in Palestine?

    ...desperate for husnul-khitaam...


    please make dua that Allah grants me a good end (to my life). please make dua that Allah guides me.


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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    If someone invaded my home, killing my people, 'swallowing' my land I'd do the same (leave), and I think it is the most pragmatic solution when you are dealing with Israel.

    I have to admit that I never thought of Al-Quds. STUPID ME!!!

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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    Now if his choices had been between Egypt of the 12th century or Europe of the 21st century which do you think he would have chosen? Based on the way that Jews are treated the answer would most likely be modern Europe

    well sorry to break your bubble but Egypt has a a very old minorities such as the coptics which have been living there for centuries - the same cannot be said for muslims in the UK, France, Germany or any western nation. Tolerance is a very new thing for Europe and it isnt handling it well - theres always rightwing sparks here and there.

    Lets not forget why americans ran away from europe in the first place Or why Jews are a bit better now - thats because of the Holocaust. thats what it took europe to finaly become tolerant when the rest of the world such as India, China, Africa and the mid east have a history of tolerating minorities.

    I would rather be a Muslim in the US today than a Jew in Egypt in the 12th century. Few who know their history can deny that there is hardly any comparison between the two.
    Try telling that to the taxi driver who got stabbed for being a muslim in the US.
    Last edited by Zafran; 10-06-2010 at 03:21 AM.
    Peace in Palestine?

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

  16. #92
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    well sorry to break your bubble but Egypt has a a very old minorities such as the coptics which have been living there for centuries
    You want to use the Copts as an example of peaceful coexistence? Are you aware of the multiple persecutions that the Copts have had to deal with at Muslim hands? Are you aware of the forced conversions of the past or the destruction of religious sites? Are you aware that even today they have difficulty fixing up their churches because to do so they have to have special government permission? Are you aware of the number of Copts that have left Egypt over the last 50 years because of their treatment?

    thats what it took europe to finaly become tolerant when the rest of the world such as India, China, Africa and the mid east have a history of tolerating minorities.
    I think your familiarity with history, and even modern times, is seriously lacking. You want to use China as an example of tolerance and Europe as an example of Intolerance? Look at how the communist government has treated Muslims and Buddhists over the last 50 years. You want the Middle East to be your example of tolerance of minorities? Which examples do you want? The Ba'hai in Iran? Or the almost non-existent population of Jews in Muslim countries after the massive migration over the last 100 years? You want to see the poll numbers on how "tolerant" Muslims in the Middle East are with Jews? You want to use the Copts as an example of Muslim tolerance again?

    Try telling that to the taxi driver who got stabbed for being a muslim in the US.
    There are always exceptions, but also realize that the Muslim who got stabbed was the target of an individual. There is a huge difference between state persecution of a minority, and random acts of violence against a minority that the government condemns.

    The person who stabbed the Muslim you mention, if found, will be prosecuted by the US government. The examples I brought up were the government doing the persecutions and murders and forced conversions themselves. Huge difference.

  17. #93
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    format_quote Originally Posted by titus View Post
    You want to use the Copts as an example of peaceful coexistence? Are you aware of the multiple persecutions that the Copts have had to deal with at Muslim hands? Are you aware of the forced conversions of the past or the destruction of religious sites? Are you aware that even today they have difficulty fixing up their churches because to do so they have to have special government permission? Are you aware of the number of Copts that have left Egypt over the last 50 years because of their treatment?
    You know little to nil on the situation of copts of Egypt- you have a very superficial approach to everything. If I give you a little history that dates back to 'baba shenuda' sometimes in the mid 1950's you'd be blown away by how indoctrinated you are with the current political tides.
    You really don't want to go there!

    but if you want to stay on top of things and know a little Arabic and a little of Egyptian culture I'd start here:

    وفاء قسطنطين اعتنقت الإسلام بعد مشاهدتها برنامج تلفزيوني البابا شنوده يعتكف في دير الإنبا بيشوي احتجاجا على "خطف" المسيحيات

    track content views 1php?cont id8617 - Peace in Palestine?
    wwwislamicboardcom - Peace in Palestine?

    تصلي في الخفاء
    wwwislamicboardcom - Peace in Palestine? لست مراهقة ساذجة
    wwwislamicboardcom - Peace in Palestine? wwwislamicboardcom - Peace in Palestine? wwwislamicboardcom - Peace in Palestine?
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    wwwislamicboardcom - Peace in Palestine?
    القاهرة - محمد حمدي
    أضاف البابا شنودة الثالث بطريرك الأقباط الأرثوذكس بعدا جديدا للأزمة في أوساط الأقباط المصريين عقب الأنباء التي ترددت عن اختفاء زوجة أحد القساوسة في مدينة أبو المطامير بمحافظة البحيرة شمال غرب العاصمة المصرية بعد إشهار إسلامها، حيث ذهب الباب للاعتكاف في دير الإنبا بيشوي بوادي النطرون وألغى عظته الأسبوعية التي يلقيها مساء كل أربعاء في كاتدرائية الأقباط الأرثوذكس في ضاحية العباسية شرق القاهرة في إشارة على عدم رضاه عن الأوضاع القائمة.

    ويعتبر لجوء البابا شنودة إلى الاعتكاف في دير الإنبا بيشوي تعبيرا عن الاحتجاج على وضع ما، وهو أسلوب يلجأ إليه البابا شنودة الثالث حينما تتوتر علاقاته مع الدولة.
    وكان موقع قبطي على الإنترنت قد ذكر أن فتاة مسيحية تدعى نورا عبد الله فهيم من مدينة الفرافرة في محافظة الوادي الجديد التي تبعد عن القاهرة حوالي 500 كم، قد اختفت أيضا وأشار الموقع إلى أن نورا تعمل في مستشفى الفرافرة بنفس المحافظة وهي خريجة معهد صحي أسيوط ويعيش والدها في قرية غرب الموهوب مركز الداخلة وهي مقيمة بالمستشفى التي تعمل فيه تحت التدريب.
    وقد شجعها شاب مسلم يعمل عامل بنفس المستشفى اسمه تامر عبد الحكيم مقيم بقرية الكفاح مركز الفرافرة محافظة الوادي الجديد وهو أصلا من دكرنس على الاختفاء معه من حوالي شهر تقريبا وقد ترددت الأخبار بأنه قد تزوجها زواجا عرفيا، ولكن لم يتردد أنها أشهرت إسلامها حتى الآن وقد أبلغ والدها الجهات الأمنية والسياسية بالمحافظة.
    وأشار الموقع إلى أن القمص بيشوي المحرقي المسؤول عن الخدمة بالوادي الجديد قد أبلغ كل الجهات التي تعاطفت مع الموقف بكل اهتمام ولكن حتى الآن لم يعثر عليها ولم تعد هي أو الشاب إلى عملهما لحد الآن، وقد أبلغ والدها مدير النيابة العامة متهما الشاب بتحريضها على الهروب وأمرت النيابة بضبطه.
    من جانب آخرنجحت السلطات المصرية مؤخرا في عقد لقاء بين السيدة وفاء قسطنطين وخمسة من مطارنة الكنيسة المصرية لمناقشتها حول ما أعلن عن اعتناقها الإسلام، وذلك في محاولة منها لاحتواء الأزمة المثارة في مصر، بعد أن سرت شائعات فحواها أن وفاء اختطفت وأجبرت على اعتناق الإسلام.
    وبحسب تصريحات لصحيفة "الشرق الأوسط"، فإن قسطنطين بدأت علاقتها بالإسلام منذ حوالي عامين، عندما شاهدت أحد البرامج التلفزيونية بالصدفة وكان يقدم شرحاً وتفسيرا لإحدى الآيات القرآنية، "فاكتشفت أن القرآن يتحدث بلغة العلم الحديث".
    ولأنها درست العلوم والزراعة، كما تذكر، فقد تأنت وفاء في تقديرها للموقف وطلبت من أحد زملائها المسلمين الذي "تثق فيه" أن يمدها بكتب عن الإسلام وتفسيره، "فاكتشفت أن الإسلام ليس كما عرفت دين عنف وتكفير للآخر، فقررت اعتناقه من دون أن يدرك أحد ذلك أويعرف سرها أحد، إلى أن حدثت التطورات الأخيرة".
    وقد تسبب اعتناق المهندسة وفاء قسطنطين الإسلام بـ"ثورة غضب" بين بعض أوساط المجتمع القبطي، وذلك رغم تكذيب وزارة الداخلية المصرية للأخبار التي أفادت بـ"خطف وفاء"، وتأكيدها أن السيدة البالغة من العمر 46 عاما أسلمت بكامل إرادتها، وتركت بيتها في مدينة أبوالمطامير في محافظة البحيرة في دلتا مصر 146 كيلومترا شمال القاهرة من دون أي ضغوط خارجية.
    تجدر الإشارة إلى أن وفاء قسطنطين مسيحية المولد والمنشأ، ولدت في عام 1959، في محافظة المنوفية بدلتا مصر لأسرة مسيحية، تملك المال والسمعة الطيبة، عاشت في محافظة المنوفية 23 عاما مع عائلتها قبل أن تنتقل إلى مدينة أبوالمطامير عقب زواجها. ملامحها هادئة وهي بيضاء مشربة بحمرة، وتحرص الآن على ارتداء الحجاب الذي يغطي شعرها.

    wwwislamicboardcom - Peace in Palestine? تصلي في الخفاء
    وفي مطلع الثمانينات حصلت على إجازة جامعية في الهندسة الزراعية، ثم تزوجت من أحد القساوسة، وأنجبت منه ابنا هوالآن مهندس وابنة تدرس في كلية العلوم جامعة الإسكندرية، وحينما شاهدت بالمصادفة برنامجا تلفزيونيا في التلفزيون المصري تناول فيه أحد المتحدثين تفسيرا للقرآن بشكل مبسط، فاكتشفت أن القرآن الذي نزل على محمد منذ ما يزيد على 1400 عام تحدث بلغة بسيطة يفهمها الجميع.. فبدأت تركز فيما تسمع حتى نهاية البرنامج التلفزيوني، وهي تشعر بشيء غامض ينبض به قلبها، وكأن صدرها ينشرح ـ كما تقول ـ لشيء مجهول لا تعي ماهية طبيعته.. ولأنها درست العلوم الزراعية اكتشفت أن الإسلام ليس كما عرفت دين عنف وتكفير للآخر، ووجدت فيه إجابات عن أسئلة كانت تشغل تفكيرها منذ سنوات، وكلما قرأت وتعلمت، أدركت سلامة موقفها وصحته، فزاد تمسكها بالإسلام الذي اعتنقته دون أن يدرك أحد ذلك، أويعرف سرها أحد، فكانت تصلي في غياب أسرتها أوفي حجرتها بعيدا عن أعينهم بعد أن تغلق عليها الباب بالمفتاح.
    وقد صامت شهر رمضان قبل الماضي والماضي، مبررة امتناعها عن الطعام بألم حاد ينتابها بين الحين والآخر في معدتها، إلا أن وفاء لم تدرك أن عين ابنتها كانت تشعر التغيير الذي ألم بوالدتها، حتى كان يوم استمعت فيه الابنة لمحادثة هاتفية بين وفاء وزميلها المسلم الذي كانت تطلب منه أحد الكتب الدينية، وكان ذلك منذ عام.
    وعن ذلك اليوم، ذكرت وفاء لصحيفة الشرق الأوسط أنها "تعجبت من عدم خوفي من اكتشاف ابنتي لأمر إسلامي ووجدتني أهدئها وأحدثها عن الإسلام لأقنعها به، ولكنها لم تقتنع، فطلبت منها عدم كشف سري فوافقت، واستمر الحال بي إلى أن شعرت قبل رمضان الماضي بأنني لا أستطيع أن أحيا طيلة حياتي بهذا الأسلوب، وخاصة مع زوج غير مسلم، فصارحت زميلي بما يعتمل في داخلي، فوعدني بتدبر الأمر، وبالفعل نجح في أن يجد لي مكانا خارج مدينتي لدى إحدى الأسر المسلمة في القاهرة، وكان من المقرر أن أترك البيت قبل رمضان، وآتي للقاهرة لإشهار إسلامي، إلا أن ابنتي كانت تضيّق عليّ رقابتها بعد أن شعرت بما أنوي فعله، فلم أفلح في ترك المنزل قبل رمضان".

    wwwislamicboardcom - Peace in Palestine? لست مراهقة ساذجة
    وتكمل وفاء قصتها بأنها نجحت في إقناع أسرتها منذ ثلاثة أسابيع في الذهاب إلى الإسكندرية (200 كيلومتر شمال القاهرة) لقضاء عدة أيام في شقتهم التي يملكونها هناك.. كان ذلك يوم جمعة، وبالفعل قضت ليلتها في الإسكندرية، وفي صباح السبت حضر لها زميلها الذي اصطحبها إلى القاهرة دون علم أحد وتوجه بها إلى تلك الأسرة المسلمة التي كان قد اتفق معها على استضافة وفاء.
    ورحبت الأسرة بوفاء وأحاطتها بالحنان، خاصة عندما بكت مع اقتراب عودة زميلها إلى مدينتهما، متذكرة ابنها وابنتها.. فما كان من رب العائلة المضيفة لها، إلا أن أخبرها أنها بإمكانها العودة إن أرادت، فردت عليه مؤكدة أنها اختارت طريقها الجديد رغم شوقها الكبير لأولادها.
    وقد اصطحب رب الأسرة وفاء إلى قسم الشرطة لإثبات حالها وسماع أقوالها في أنها جاءت بمحض إرادتها، بعدها ذهبت إلى مباحث أمن الدولة التي استمعت لها وسألتها عما إذا كانت قد تعرضت لأي ضغوط لإجبارها على الإسلام، فنفت ذلك.. ثم سألوها إذا كانت ترغب في العودة لأبنائها وعائلتها فأكدت لهم عدم ندمها على اختيارها.
    عندئذ سألوها إذا كانت تريد الانتقال إلى بيت آخر أومكان إقامة غير الذي تقيم فيه، فأكدت لهم راحتها مع تلك الأسرة المسلمة التي تحيطها بكل رعاية، وخرجت وفاء دون أن تعلم أن هناك نارا مشتعلة بدأت بشائعات في مدينتها، بأن المسلمين خطفوها ليجبروها على الإسلام.
    وتتعجب وفاء قائلة "لم أتخيل يوما أن تحتل أخباري قنوات الأخبار والصحافة العالمية، وأن تقوم وتندلع المظاهرات بسببي.. ولكن أقول لأي مسيحي إنني اتخذت قراري بمحض إرادتي، دون أي ضغوط.. لقد عرفت طريقي.. وانشرح قلبي على مدى عامين.. كما أنني لست فتاة مراهقة أوغير ناضجة من الممكن التأثير عليّ.

    wwwislamicboardcom - Peace in Palestine?
    before offering your all too frequent pearls!
    I think your familiarity with history, and even modern times, is seriously lacking. You want to use China as an example of tolerance and Europe as an example of Intolerance? Look at how the communist government has treated Muslims and Buddhists over the last 50 years. You want the Middle East to be your example of tolerance of minorities? Which examples do you want? The Ba'hai in Iran? Or the almost non-existent population of Jews in Muslim countries after the massive migration over the last 100 years? You want to see the poll numbers on how "tolerant" Muslims in the Middle East are with Jews? You want to use the Copts as an example of Muslim tolerance again?
    Said the kettle to the pot!


    There are always exceptions, but also realize that the Muslim who got stabbed was the target of an individual. There is a huge difference between state persecution of a minority, and random acts of violence against a minority that the government condemns.
    Very good!
    The person who stabbed the Muslim you mention, if found, will be prosecuted by the US government. The examples I brought up were the government doing the persecutions and murders and forced conversions themselves. Huge difference.
    sure.. not sure what sort of justice that is? perhaps a la mode of holding 'terrorists' without trial and for the hell of it!

    all the best
    Peace in Palestine?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Peace in Palestine?


  18. #94
    Zafran's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    You want to use the Copts as an example of peaceful coexistence? Are you aware of the multiple persecutions that the Copts have had to deal with at Muslim hands? Are you aware of the forced conversions of the past or the destruction of religious sites? Are you aware that even today they have difficulty fixing up their churches because to do so they have to have special government permission? Are you aware of the number of Copts that have left Egypt over the last 50 years because of their treatment
    wheres your proof for all this? Its shocking that theres millions of copts still living in Egypt - there shouldnt be any if what you say is actually true. Give me a single example of muslims living in the UK, France or germnay for as long as the copts have been in Egypt. We're not talking about 50 years here but for 1000s.

    I think your familiarity with history, and even modern times, is seriously lacking. You want to use China as an example of tolerance and Europe as an example of Intolerance? Look at how the communist government has treated Muslims and Buddhists over the last 50 years. You want the Middle East to be your example of tolerance of minorities? Which examples do you want? The Ba'hai in Iran? Or the almost non-existent population of Jews in Muslim countries after the massive migration over the last 100 years? You want to see the poll numbers on how "tolerant" Muslims in the Middle East are with Jews? You want to use the Copts as an example of Muslim tolerance again?
    Yeah I like to see them, can european tolernace beat china, mid east, Africa or India for the last 1000 years, can you find any muslims living for a thousand years of generations in the UK, France or Germany? Talking about Iran have you seen the Jewish population in Iran. Can you name any european country where muslims have lived longer in europe then the Iranian Jews in Iran. Why did the Jews migrate - was Isreal not created around 50 years ago. History doesnt start 100 or 50 years ago even though european tolernace did and it seems for you it does too. The irony is that minorities have been tolerated all over the world for 1000 years expect europe which became tolerant around 50 years ago - its a new thing for them - you as an american should understand this more then any other person as most americans did run away from europe.
    Last edited by Zafran; 10-07-2010 at 02:50 PM.
    Peace in Palestine?

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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  20. #95
    Ramadhan's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    Titus, you are really an ignorant.

    let me tell you, in Indonesia, which is the largest muslims country in the world, non-muslims hold all kind of important jobs like governors, ministers, etc.
    And the other religions' holidays such as christmas, easter, waisya (buddha), galungan/kuningan/nyepi (for hindu) are designated as national holidays. Same thing in Malaysia as well.

    Are Eidul fitri and eidul adha national holidays in the USA? are they in europe?
    no?
    ok, then shut your trap and stop bragging about how the western countries have high tolerance towards Islam and do not discriminate muslims.

  21. #96
    titus's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    Naidamar, I don't recall ever having said anything negative about Indonesia when speaking about intolerance. I won't be rude and call you names or ask you to shut your trap as you did to me, but I would ask that you actually read my posts before getting upset and responding with posts that have nothing to do with what I posted.

    Its shocking that theres millions of copts still living in Egypt - there shouldnt be any if what you say is actually true.
    Using that logic then I guess that black people were never treated poorly in the United States, nor were the Native Americans since there are so many still here, nor are the Palestinians today treated poorly.

    Give me a single example of muslims living in the UK, France or germnay for as long as the copts have been in Egypt. We're not talking about 50 years here but for 1000s.
    The longevity of a group in an area is not the prime factor in how the government treats them. Nor is it in any way relevant to how they are treated currently, or 500 or 1000 years ago.

  22. #97
    titus's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    Are Eidul fitri and eidul adha national holidays in the USA? are they in europe?
    no?
    ok, then shut your trap and stop bragging about how the western countries have high tolerance towards Islam and do not discriminate muslims.
    No, they are not, but mainly because of the small percentage of the population that is Muslim. I can quote you some of the laws, though, from here in the US:

    It shall be an unlawful employment practice for an employer --

    (1) To fail or refuse to hire or to discharge any individual, or otherwise to discriminate against any individual with respect to his compensation, terms, conditions, or privileges of employment, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin; or

    (2) To limit, segregate, or classify his employees or applicants for employment in any way which would deprive or tend to deprive any individual of employment opportunities or otherwise adversely affect his status as an employee, because of such individual's race, color, religion, sex, or national origin.



    ......

    Once the employee advises the employer of the sincerely held religious belief, the burden shifts to the employer to accommodate that belief. The employee should suggest accommodation alternatives. In the example of working on the Sabbath or Sunday noted above, the employee can offer to work on an alternative day or suggest other employees who may work the Sabbath or Sunday shift.

    The employer must undertake efforts to accommodate the employee's religious belief. An employer cannot establish a zero tolerance policy against accommodating religious belief and practice. The employer must take seriously its obligation to accommodate the belief.


    If you tell your employer that you are Muslim when you are hired then he is required by law to accommodate your religious beliefs, including prayer and holidays. So while Eid is not a national holiday all Muslims may have that day off, as well as Fridays if they wish.

  23. #98
    جوري's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    format_quote Originally Posted by titus View Post
    No, they are not, but mainly because of the small percentage of the population that is Muslim. I can quote you some of the laws, though, from here in the US:

    Muslims outnumber Jews in the U.S and we have off all Jewish holidays.
    laws look nice on paper but they don't translate well in life. I know many people who are unable to take off for their holidays.

    all the best
    Peace in Palestine?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Peace in Palestine?


  24. #99
    Grace Seeker's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    format_quote Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ View Post


    Muslims outnumber Jews in the U.S and we have off all Jewish holidays.
    Really?! How did you get them off? We sure didn't here. The following is the list of recognized federal holidays for 2010:
    Friday, January 1, New Year’s Day
    Monday, January 18, Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
    Monday, February 15*, Washington’s Birthday
    Monday, May 31, Memorial Day
    Monday, July 5**, Independence Day
    Monday, September 6, Labor Day
    Monday, October 11, Columbus Day
    Thursday, November 11, Veterans Day
    Thursday, November 25, Thanksgiving Day
    Friday, December 24***, Christmas Day

    If you got something more than this off, you found a generous boss. I know a lot of people who are lucky to get even these.

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  26. #100
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    Re: Peace in Palestine?

    format_quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
    Really?! How did you get them off? We sure didn't here. The following is the list of recognized federal holidays for 2010:
    Friday, January 1, New Year’s Day
    Monday, January 18, Birthday of Martin Luther King, Jr.
    Monday, February 15*, Washington’s Birthday
    Monday, May 31, Memorial Day
    Monday, July 5**, Independence Day
    Monday, September 6, Labor Day
    Monday, October 11, Columbus Day
    Thursday, November 11, Veterans Day
    Thursday, November 25, Thanksgiving Day
    Friday, December 24***, Christmas Day

    If you got something more than this off, you found a generous boss. I know a lot of people who are lucky to get even these.
    you must come from a small town? indeed in NY both Rosh Hashana and yom Kippur are holidays where schools and most govt. places are closed.
    Hanukkah seems to fall at the same heel of xmas so it too is an automatic time off. No such luck with the only two religious holidays of the Islamic calendar.

    Try to travel a little and I am my own boss!

    all the best
    Peace in Palestine?

    Text without context is pretext
    If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him 44845203 1 - Peace in Palestine?



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