ban on men in lingerie shops

**esperanza** · 01-05-2012

BBC

Women only to work in Saudi Arabia lingerie shops

By Emily Buchanan BBC world affairs correspondent 57694330 onlinepics 1 - ban on men in lingerie shops

57694330 onlinepics 1 - ban on men in lingerie shops

Saudi women will be served only by female staff in lingerie shops
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A law allowing only women to work in lingerie shops in Saudi Arabia is coming into force.
Campaigners hope this will end decades of awkwardness in the Islamic kingdom where women have always been served by male shop assistants.
The heated issue of the total lack of female shop workers in Saudi Arabia has simmered for years.
Many Saudi women say they have felt particularly uncomfortable buying their lingerie from men.
Female campaigners recently increased the pressure for change through a Facebook campaign and a boycott of lingerie stores.
Now King Abdullah's royal decree finally comes into effect, banning male staff from selling female underwear.
"It's about time, it's been a long struggle and the authorities have finally come to their senses," says Radio Jeddah journalist Samar Fatany.
She says she, and any woman who could afford to, would often shop abroad rather than face the embarrassment of giving her underwear size over the counter to a man.
The campaign has gained extra momentum from the increasing number of young women who want to enter the workplace.
The Saudi women who can work are usually the educated elite who do professional jobs in medicine or government.
The new law could potentially create up to 40,000 jobs for ordinary Saudi women who have hitherto had little or no access to employment.
But it also means that male clerks, most of whom are foreign workers, will be out of a job.
It is not far short of a social revolution being pushed through in the teeth of fierce opposition from the kingdom's top clerics.
They do not want to see an increase in the number of women working outside the home.
The kingdom's Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, has warned shop owners that employing women is a "crime and prohibited by Islamic sharia law".
"There is already a growing tension between liberals and the religious conservatives in the country and this issue could provoke opposition from the religious police," says Abeer Mishkhas is a columnist for the Saudi paper Asharq al-Awsat.
The Ministry of Labour will be posting observers in shopping centres to make sure the new shop assistants do not get harassed in their first weeks of work.
The ban on male staff in lingerie departments is due to be extended to cosmetics shops from July.

**Mikayeel** · 01-05-2012

Again, people lets not criticise knowledgable islamic scholars based on some non-islamic news reports findings.

To call those scholars puppets, just because 'BB freaking C' down talked them? I will only believe what the saudi scholars have to say on this matter if they personally said it to me, or if it came from a trusted islamic source. Other than said, allahu a3lm.

**syed_z** · 01-05-2012

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~

There are ahadith pertaining to the minor signs of Al-Qiyamat, that refer to: trade becoming so widespread that a woman will be forced to help her husband in business, and women who will enter the workforce out of love for this world.

(if someone can reference these, I would really appreciate it )

Salaam Sister Zaria. I believe this hadith points towards Capitalist economic system in which a husband will have to take help from his wife and wife will have to leave their children and give him a helping hand because they took a loan on interest to do business.

Feminist Revolution also had a part to play in fulfillment of this hadith i believe.

**syed_z** · 01-05-2012

Originally Posted by Galaxy

As long as the woman works in a place with no haraam then can she work? How is supporting your family a crime? Some woman need to make a living!

Also I did a quick Google search on the hadiths concerning woman in the workforce and all I could find is that the hadiths are in book named "Ahmad".

Asalaam O Alaikum...i have a book which says following....

"There is no decree in Islam which forbids woman from seeking employment whenever there is a necessity for it, especially in positions which fit her nature in which society needs her most. Examples of these professions are nursing, teaching (especially for children), and medicine. Some scholars like Imam Abu Hanifa and Al Tabari even held the opinion that a woman can hold a position of a judge even though there may be a tendency to doubt a woman's fitness for the post due to her emotional nature."

**'Abd-al Latif** · 01-05-2012

syed_z, please quote this book.

And for the sake of ending the ignorant bickering (as hardly anyone is coming forward with any Islamic evidence to prove otherwise), the following should suffice as a very brief and basic guideline to women working.

1 – The basic principle is that women should stay in their houses. This is indicated by the verse in which Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“And stay in your houses, and do not display yourselves like that of the times of ignorance”

[al-Ahzaab 33:33]

Although this was addressed to the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), all believing women should follow them in that. It was addressed to the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) because of their honoured status and because they are the example for the believing women.

This is also indicated by the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “Woman is ‘awrah, and when she goes out the Shaytaan gets his hopes up. She is never closer to Allaah than when she is in the innermost part of her house.” (Narrated by Ibn Hibbaan and Ibn Khuzaymah; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in al-Silsilah al-Saheehah, no. 2688.)

And the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said concerning women praying in the mosques: “Their houses are better for them.” (Narrated by Abu Dawood, 567’ classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh Abi Dawood).

2 – It is permissible for a woman to work or study so long as a number of conditions are met:

- That this work is suited to the nature and aptitude of women, such as medicine, nursing, teaching, tailoring and so on.

- The work should be in a place that is for women only, with no mixing between the sexes. It is not permissible for a woman to study or work in a mixed school.

- The woman should wear proper Islamic hijaab at work.

- Her work should not lead to her travelling without a mahram.

- Her going out to work should not involve her committing any sin, such as being alone with the driver, or wearing perfume where non-mahram men will be able to smell it.

- That should not lead to her neglecting her duties of looking after the house or taking care of her husband and children.

www.islamqa.com

Secondly, there is a difference in the ruling depending on the land a woman works in. Sometimes women may be encouraged to find jobs because this would benefit other Muslims, such as working in hospitals as doctors and other places. The shaykh's response is to the Muslim land that follows the shari'ah closer than any other place in the world. Therefore, he speaks to the Saudi women, the people's condition and dangers he knows best about because he lives there and not to the women worldwide.

Finally, I am confident that Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh is striving for the best interests of Islam and Muslims. He is not one who promotes injustice, endorses oppression or seeks to undermine women and their capabilities to contribute positively towards the community.

The BBC is bias against Islam and Muslims and if you seek to clarify the shaykh's stance then I suggest you find out all what he had to say about this issue, and not just a selected extract of his words to fit the purpose of the article.

يَـٰٓأَيُّہَا ٱلَّذِينَ ءَامَنُوٓاْ إِن جَآءَكُمۡ فَاسِقُۢ بِنَبَإٍ۬ فَتَبَيَّنُوٓاْ أَن تُصِيبُواْ قَوۡمَۢا بِجَهَـٰلَةٍ۬ فَتُصۡبِحُواْ عَلَىٰ مَا فَعَلۡتُمۡ نَـٰدِمِينَ

O you who believe! If a Fasiq (liar — evil person) comes to you with any news, verify it, lest you should harm people in ignorance, and afterwards you become regretful for what you have done. (Qur'an 49:6)

**'Abd-al Latif** · 01-05-2012

Originally Posted by Galaxy

As long as the woman works in a place with no haraam then can she work? How is supporting your family a crime? Some woman need to make a living!

Also I did a quick Google search on the hadiths concerning woman in the workforce and all I could find is that the hadiths are in book named "Ahmad".

Google is a search engine? Not an Islamic source. And it is most likely referring to the book of Imam Ahmed ibn Hambal – rahimullah.

**Beardo** · 01-06-2012

Originally Posted by esperanza

The kingdom's Grand Mufti, Sheikh Abdel Aziz al-Sheikh, has warned shop owners that employing women is a "crime and prohibited by Islamic sharia law".

loooolll Really?!!! WHAT IS THIS. Can someone explain this to me please? This cannot be true. What the freak.

Edit: Nevermind, just read the above posts.

But quick question... it said no mingling of the genders. So a woman cannot work in the mall? How does that work?

**syilla** · 01-06-2012

^^^akhi you have to remember that not all fatwas applicable to every country

**CosmicPathos** · 01-06-2012

About time. But on another note, they have Victoria's Secret in Saudi? This keeps on getting interesting. Do they have Victoria's Secret in Makkah and Medinah as well?

**syilla** · 01-06-2012

actually you can see lots of lingerie shop by the road side there in the middle east. i remember watching a program the westerns are so surprise to see these. and the variety of the products can not be find anywhere else huhu

**CosmicPathos** · 01-06-2012

lol wow, who knew Bedouins can be kinky too.

**syilla** · 01-06-2012

additioanally i like to add hehe. i'm a kelantanese and you can see from where i come from, the ladies are mostly working at the market. men usually at the 'kedai kopi' oops, or working as fishermen or other kind of business.

siti khadijah 1 - ban on men in lingerie shops

siti khadijah 1 - ban on men in lingerie shops

kelantan and terengganu is famous for its batik design. but designs are different.

ebc5d2a7c3014ae622146d5637c79a34 - ban on men in lingerie shops

ebc5d2a7c3014ae622146d5637c79a34 - ban on men in lingerie shops

**Darth Ultor** · 01-06-2012

Hiring women is a crime prohibited by Islamic law? Does this cleric have a Quranic verse or a Hadith to back this claim up? If he's gonna start declaring something halal or haraam he better **** well have an original source to back it up. Otherwise, I am forced to dismiss him as big a liar as the May 21st guy.

**esperanza** · 01-06-2012

Originally Posted by Beardo

loooolll Really?!!! WHAT IS THIS. Can someone explain this to me please? This cannot be true. What the freak.

Edit: Nevermind, just read the above posts.

But quick question... it said no mingling of the genders. So a woman cannot work in the mall? How does that work?

well yes supoosedly no mingling of genders,,but for years women have to go to shops with men wokring into buy their clothes,,,whixh any modest woman would not like,,, so whats the differene if a woman now works there

and most malls are families only,,,so better having women or families buying from women than women having to buy form men..who are suually young single and many take chance to try and chat

**ardianto** · 01-06-2012

Lets we compare the old rule and the new rule.

-----------

Old rule: Only men who allowed to sell woman's lingerie. Women are not allowed.

Advantage
- Men get income.

Disadvantage
- Those woman's underwear could raise wild fantasy in minds of men who sell these underwear.
- The customers are women. Then those men and their female customers will talk about size of underwear. The inappropriate topic to discuss between man and woman who is not the mahram.

----------

New rule: Only women who allowed to sell woman's lingerie. Men are not allowed.

Advantage
- Those woman's underwear will not raise wild fantasy in minds of women who sell these underwear.
- There is no interaction with opposite gender. The sellers and the customers are women.
- Women get income.

Disadvantage
- Men lose their income.

----------

Which the better? ....... you decide.

**~Zaria~** · 01-06-2012

^ brother 'Abd-al Latif, the article that you have referenced holds much wealth with regards to this topic, JazakAllah for posting it.

I myself am a working sister (in the medical field), and Ive been giving this much thought....

If you were to ask most scholars - they will all agree that if women are to work, then they are preferred in the medical/ education/ nurturing type of roles - as is mentioned in the article.
And this makes perfect sense, Alhamduillah.

I do find difficulty in seeing women going out to work in business/ engineering, etc.....or what is considered as predominantly 'masculine fields'.
--> where the type of job does not provide a SERVICE that requires a woman to specifically leave her home.

You see, at the end of the day, the womens first and foremost priority in life is to her husband and family.
And while it IS permissible for women to work out of necessity, or as in the above mentioned examples - providing a much needed service to the community - we should not be ENCOURAGING this into other fields - and esp. where it is results in inter-mingling between the sexes.

The ahadith that I have referred to, I believe, also warns us of this:

--> Women helping their husbands in business.
I agree with bro syed_z, this can be due to our economic enviroment, debts, etc.
But often you will find a family-business - with the mothers, daughters, daughter-in-laws.....all involved in serving the customers, etc......simply to keep the wealth within the family, and not requiring to employ others into these roles.
And this has indeed become a common trend.

--> Women who will enter the workforce out of love for this world.
Now, consider the role of a women selling lingerie.
Is it an absolute necessity that she leaves her home, and kids - to do this?
I think not.....

Is this not yet another example of entering the workforce for 'the love of the world'?

Just something to think about......

As I have mentioned, i do not posess the actual references to these ahadith, and I hope someone can help out here, insha Allah.
They are quoted widely in many books pertaining to the last days, as well as talks - eg by the late Anwar Awlaki, etc.....so Im quite sure they are sound ahadith.

Salaam

**~Zaria~** · 01-06-2012

^ I just want to add to the above,

that if a woman is working out of necessity (i.e she does not have a husband/ mahram to support her; to feed her kids; etc) - then, Alhamdulillah - this is fine.....that she goes out to work, observing full hijab and doing her best to limit her interaction between the sexes.

I do not wish to generalise to all women, and I realise that everyone faces their own challenges in life.

My point to this is simply, that we should not be ENCOURAGING women to work in these fields - as if she is entitled to do so.

At the end of the day - we should not forget our primary roles and duties in life.

Salaam

**syilla** · 01-06-2012

Originally Posted by ardianto

Lets we compare the old rule and the new rule.

-----------

Old rule: Only men who allowed to sell woman's lingerie. Women are not allowed.

Advantage
- Men get income.

Disadvantage
- Those woman's underwear could raise wild fantasy in minds of men who sell these underwear.
- The customers are women. Then those men and their female customers will talk about size of underwear. The inappropriate topic to discuss between man and woman who is not the mahram.

----------

New rule: Only women who allowed to sell woman's lingerie. Men are not allowed.

Advantage
- Those woman's underwear will not raise wild fantasy in minds of women who sell these underwear.
- There is no interaction with opposite gender. The sellers and the customers are women.
- Women get income.

Disadvantage
- Men lose their income.

----------

Which the better? ....... you decide.

lol i don't think you can do these summaries it has lots more of factors.

first you have to remember their culture are different than us. that saudi girls mostly are pampered and the men worked hard and they are used to work without the wives help to support them. and they gave everything to the women. thats why some fathers are very choosy when choosing bride for their daughters.

**ardianto** · 01-06-2012

Originally Posted by syilla

the ladies are mostly working at the market. men usually at the 'kedai kopi' oops, or working as fishermen or other kind of business.

Good quip. Yes, that's a bad habit of (some) Melayu men.

Just like in Indonesian who also Melayu race. There are stupid husbands who order their wives to work while they relax in Kedai Kopi, drink coffee and smoking cigarette.

No wonder in ulama in Indonesia issued a fatwa: Obligation to make money for the family is only for husbands, not for wives.

**'Abd-al Latif** · 01-06-2012

Originally Posted by ~Zaria~

^ brother 'Abd-al Latif, the article that you have referenced holds much wealth with regards to this topic, JazakAllah for posting it.

I myself am a working sister (in the medical field), and Ive been giving this much thought....

If you were to ask most scholars - they will all agree that if women are to work, then they are preferred in the medical/ education/ nurturing type of roles - as is mentioned in the article.
And this makes perfect sense, Alhamduillah.

I do find difficulty in seeing women going out to work in business/ engineering, etc.....or what is considered as predominantly 'masculine fields'.
--> where the type of job does not provide a SERVICE that requires a woman to specifically leave her home.

You see, at the end of the day, the womens first and foremost priority in life is to her husband and family.
And while it IS permissible for women to work out of necessity, or as in the above mentioned examples - providing a much needed service to the community - we should not be ENCOURAGING this into other fields - and esp. where it is results in inter-mingling between the sexes.

The ahadith that I have referred to, I believe, also warns us of this:

--> Women helping their husbands in business.
I agree with bro syed_z, this can be due to our economic enviroment, debts, etc.
But often you will find a family-business - with the mothers, daughters, daughter-in-laws.....all involved in serving the customers, etc......simply to keep the wealth within the family, and not requiring to employ others into these roles.
And this has indeed become a common trend.

--> Women who will enter the workforce out of love for this world.
Now, consider the role of a women selling lingerie.
Is it an absolute necessity that she leaves her home, and kids - to do this?
I think not.....

Is this not yet another example of entering the workforce for 'the love of the world'?

Just something to think about......

As I have mentioned, i do not posess the actual references to these ahadith, and I hope someone can help out here, insha Allah.
They are quoted widely in many books pertaining to the last days, as well as talks - eg by the late Anwar Awlaki, etc.....so Im quite sure they are sound ahadith.

Salaam

Very, very valid points. Mashaa'Allah. You hit the nail on the head.

**'Abd-al Latif** · 01-06-2012

Originally Posted by Darth Ultor

Hiring women is a crime prohibited by Islamic law? Does this cleric have a Quranic verse or a Hadith to back this claim up? If he's gonna start declaring something halal or haraam he better **** well have an original source to back it up. Otherwise, I am forced to dismiss him as big a liar as the May 21st guy.

I suggest you look up who he is. I have posted a brief biography of the shaykh on the Biography section here. He is a man of knowledge and a scholar and I doubt highly that he, just like any other scholar, would endorse his own opinion over that of the Qur'an and Sunnah.