My failure to understand

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McCool

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Hello,

I want to start this off by saying if you read something I wrote and feel offended by it, it was not my intent. I am not judging rather I am curious due to my failure to understand the circumstances entirely. I understand that some of what I say may be very generalized. As well I realize that most people on this forum are probably rather well educated people. So I guess I am on with what I came here to say:

I am 19 years old; I am a Canadian College student. I was raised in a small town in southern Ontario in a broken Catholic home, however I associate myself to no organized faith. I would say by no means am I literate in the Muslim faith, but I stay very current with global events and I would say that I am an open minded person.

The problem I've been having recently stems from years of 'Muslim' (generalizing, I know) activity to which I do not understand. Of course I am referring to conflict within the Middle East and around the world. Most recently, the response of Muslims to the comic that has come out of Denmark. I have no trouble understanding how many people could take these images to be offensive. I do have a problem understanding the seemingly common Muslim’s response to the release of the comic.

After hearing about the comic’s release I must admit, I found it... funny. Following the news after its release, I take it more serious, almost as if what the comic displayed was truthful. Now before you get mad at me allow me to explain. I've been watching the Muslim response from my community, Canada as a whole, and globally (as best I can) and I must say I am disgusted with how many Muslims are dealing with this situation.

I see images of people burning flags, rioting, destroying property and harming others. Threats are being made, Boycotting is taking place and people have died in some of these instances. It seems the majority of the Muslim community believes this behavior is acceptable. I heard a Muslim politician say (I am paraphrasing) that though these actions are wrong, they are justifiable due to the anger of Muslims.

Does this strike the people here as being wrong? That anger and destruction are justifiable so long as one is offended? In my experience this isn't uncommon, it seems to me that most Muslims take things to extremes faster and more viciously then any other group of people and it is accepted within their community.

I know that the people doing these terrible things are extremist and I know that other religions have extremism too. It occurs to me that the Muslim faith seems to promote extremism and this kind behavior reminiscent of small children fighting over a favored toy.

I would like feedback, I want to know what you people think of what I have said and what you feel about the current situation.
 
Well just tell me how would you feel if i make fun of your religion? No forget about your religion lets talk about your family; how would you feel if someone whom you doesnt know make fun of your family?
I'm sure you'll get mad at that person. Well that's what's happening all around the world. Muslims are being insulted everywhere. They cant bear it any longer. That's a way for them of expressing their anger and frustration.
I agree with you that some of the actions of these muslims are unacceptable; e.g destroying property of innocent people and harming innocent people. Islam is a religion of peace and does not tolerate injustice. However these people are doing these actions at their own risk; that's not the real image of Islam.
Me too i feel like venting my anger by breaking things etc.. But Allah has said in the Holy Qur'an; "Surely Allah is with those who are patient", so i prefer being patient.

Hope that this helps you.

MAy Allah keep me on the straight path and guide your heart.

Peace.:happy:

​
 
Hey McCool.


The reason why its caused alot of anger among the muslims is because of what the images were representing, and that was totally opposite to what our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him and his beloved family) was/what he did.

You can even read the biography from this link and realise that everything the media is portraying against the muslims is totally against what islam allows/disallows etc.

Life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him and his beloved family)
http://www.islamicboard.com/prophet-muhammad-p/1715-biography-prophet-muhammad-saws.html


Its against islam to draw/create images of Allaah Almighty (God), nor of his beloved Prophets (peace and blessings be upon them) [this includes Jesus, Moses, Muhammad (peace be upon them all) etc.]


Even though all this has happened, the muslims shouldn't destroy buildings, harm the innocent etc. Because this is transgressing the limits, and this is not what our beloved Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) did when he was insulted (nor did the other prophets in their time.) Therefore we should boycott the goods of the countries that approved of what happened, but this doesn't mean that we should commit violent acts; as this is totally against what islam allows.

Instead we should use calm/safe measures, but at the same time - show how we've lost our trust in the people who allowed this to happen. Like i've said before; eg. through boycotting their products etc. But we should not destroy buildings, kill innocent people etc.


This is because in the qur'an Allaah Almighty (God) says:


On that account: We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people: and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our messengers with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)



Peace.
 
McCool said:
Hello,

I am 19 years old; I am a Canadian College student. I was raised in a small town in southern Ontario in a broken Catholic home, however I associate myself to no organized faith.
******************************
I see images of people burning flags, rioting, destroying property and harming others. Threats are being made, Boycotting is taking place and people have died in some of these instances. It seems the majority of the Muslim community believes this behavior is acceptable. I heard a Muslim politician say (I am paraphrasing) that though these actions are wrong, they are justifiable due to the anger of Muslims.
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______________________________________________________________
Who You Are:​
You have stated that you were raised in a Catholic home and yet you are an atheist. I think the same would apply to the politician, who enjoyed the comic in the same facetiousness as yours; he might have been raised in a Muslim home but has neither learnt Islam nor reverted to it. In other words, he might be one of your peers with regard to religious faith. As you do not believe in the Creator, the Prophets, the Angels, the Revelations, the Resurrection, the Hereafter, and the Judgement etc, it is quite natural for you and your peers in the atheism to discover greatest materials of enjoyment in the cartooned satire of the last prophet, Muhammed(pbuh), sent by God for guidance of the entire mankind from his time till the Day of Destruction, which you and your satirist peers don't care.

Who Muslims Are:
All the people from the first human, Adam, to those who will survive upto the Day of Destruction may be categorized into (1) Believers, (2) Misbelievers and (3) Disbelievers, of whom you are now one. The believers were always in the past, are in the present, and will be in the future known as Muslims, meaning submitters to God. Islam and Muslim are Arabic words for submission and submitter to God. The present day Muslims, who are guided by the Quran and the guidance of the final prophet, Muhammed(pbuh), believe that all the previous Messangers of God from Nuah(pbuh) to Jesus(pbuh) also came with the same message that Muhammed(pbuh) was sent with. They all came with the message to ask the strayed humans of their times and climes to believe in God Who had existed before there was any creation and will exist when the entire creation will be destroyed at His command. He is One and Only having neither any parent nor any children. He has no equal and He alone should be worshipped by the mankind. This is, in short, the message of Islam (meaning submission to the will of God) that all the messangers of God came with. Those who accepted the message without any concoction are Believers ,or for that matter, Muslims. Therefore, to a Muslim, all the messangers of God from Nuah (pbuh) to Muhammed(pbuh) are equally beloved and respectable. By satiring Muhammed(pbuh), your cartoonist has satired all the prophets of God, all of whom were carriers of the same message, as well as God Himself. Can you now imagine how the Believers should re-act when the divine code of faith and conduct (ordained for the first human on earth to the last ones surviving till the Day of Destruction) is under a cartoonist's satire? This is a direct attack against God and the believers are ordained by God not to hesitate even to die for His cause. To quote in the words of God:Verily God hath bought of the Believers their lives and their properties for the price that theirs shall be the Paradise: so they fight in the way of Allah and slay and are slain. It (i.e. the promise of Paradise) is a covenant which is binding on Him in the Torah and the Injil and the Qur’an. And who is more faithful unto his covenant than God? Rejoice then in your bargain that ye have made, for that is the supreme triumph. (Al-Tawbah 9: 111) God has further stated: Thou wilt indeed find them, of all people, most greedy of life,-even more than the idolaters: Each one of them wishes He could be given a life of a thousand years: But the grant of such life will not save him from (due) punishment. For God sees well all that they do. Say O Muhammad: "Whoever is the enemy of Jibrã'el (Gabriel) should know that he revealed this Qur'an to your heart by God’s command, which confirms previous scriptures, and is a guidance and good news for the believers." Let them know that whoever is an enemy to God, His angels, His Messangers, Jibrã'el (Gabriel) and Mika‘el (Michael); Allah is an enemy to such unbelievers.[Al Baqara 2:96-98] ​

:hiding:
 
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If you count those who burn the flags, embassies etc. i think it's only 0.001% of Muslims.

But boycotting is on the way, the percentage of Muslims boycotting Danish goods should be higher i think!:rollseyes
 
I'll go in order here

1) aljawaad - I would make it my business if someone insulted my family, religious views, political views, moral views etc. to be as un-offended as possible. Being mad, offended and angry at everything gets nothing done, being mad is just a tool used for justifying something that has been done. I also believe that nearly all of the actions of Muslims in regards to this situation are unreasonable (as apposed to the "some" you said). As well the actions they carry out do not limit the risk to themselves. I think it is safe to say that most of the rioters are outwardly aggressive. I agree with the quote you gave me from the Qur'an in regards to being patient and I wish more Muslims took that stand, for I feel it to be much healthier.

2) Fi_Sabilillah - I understand your argument and it is a good one. However, would you not agree that those who released the comic publicly are not Muslims (or Muslims in good faith)? Thusly they are not subject to the rules and stipulations of the Qur'an, being that they are entitled their right to freedom of religion which is given to them by God himself? I feel that though the comic does not conform to what you believe it should conform too, it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way, so why must a war be started against it?

3) M H Kahn - You make too many assumptions. I am not catholic this is true, I spent many years in that faith and I do not entirely agree with its teachings. I am certainly not atheist. I have my own belief system which does not conform to any other organized religion that I know of. I do believe in a creator and I recognize this life he has given me as a holy gift. I believe in a final 'judgment' per say and an 'afterlife' as well.

I take humour in the comic not because of who it portrayed. I would think it was funny even if it was a picture of me or my own mother instead; even if it was Jesus (who I do believe in). I am just a light hearted person overall. With the way you talk, its sounds like you are a man who is quick to judgment and (possibly) anger. This is what I believe the comic was trying to satire. You said yourself "This is a direct attack against God and the believers are ordained by God not to hesitate even to die for His cause.". I think it is unhealthy to take this comic as and 'attack'. Is that not a little extreme given the fact that the Cartoon does not harm your belief system? And why does God want you to die for him? If he wanted you dead he would make it so, if he wanted the men from Denmark dead, he would make it so. I believe that you are very quick to be offended which is the problem at present. Also, if your belief system is correct will this man not spend eternity in a hell of his own making whereas you will live in paradise? Why be angry it accomplishes nothing.


4) The amount of Muslims who buy Danish goods, I bet, do not make up enough of the Danish market to really have them feel the pressure put on by a boycott. Besides is a boycott not a tad extreme because you are boycotting more then just the people who made the statement? Boycotting all of Denmark's products because of what one person did makes no more sense then a person hating Muslims because of what 9 Muslims did, does it not?

Once again I'd love to have more feedback. Thank you.
 
McCool said:
I've been watching the Muslim response from my community, Canada as a whole, and globally (as best I can) and I must say I am disgusted with how many Muslims are dealing with this situation.
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Hello

As a fellow Canadian, I would really appreciate it if you could point out specific actions Muslims in your community have done thus far that you are disgusted with.
 
I just wanna say to you, that this cartoon or comic strip, is extremely out of the question..This man that the are trying to portray, Prophet Mohamed(pbh),
was the most pious man you will ever here about in history..These poeple, with no respect, are drawings pictures associated with bombs in a turban and such of this Prphet of GOD (pbh)... i mean how much do the muslims all over the world have to tolerate, when these people wanna make us the center of attention, when they disgrace our religion, go to war with us in several countries, and mind you some of these countries have no armys, but its still called a WAR...OK OF CORSE PPL ARE MAD...what do u want them to be like ohh haaa thattss funny...of corse not we love this man ...he is a PROPHET..we wouldnt do that about JESUS OR MOSES OR ABRAHAM OR DAVID OR ANY PROPHET, BECUASE WE BELEIVE IN ALL OF THEM....Islam is submission to God and peace, but you cannot attack our right to worship one God, with no partners and Mohamed (pbh)IS HIS MESSENGER!!!
 
McCool said:
I'll go in order here

1) aljawaad - I would make it my business if someone insulted my family, religious views, political views, moral views etc. to be as un-offended as possible. Being mad, offended and angry at everything gets nothing done, being mad is just a tool used for justifying something that has been done. I also believe that nearly all of the actions of Muslims in regards to this situation are unreasonable (as apposed to the "some" you said). As well the actions they carry out do not limit the risk to themselves. I think it is safe to say that most of the rioters are outwardly aggressive. I agree with the quote you gave me from the Qur'an in regards to being patient and I wish more Muslims took that stand, for I feel it to be much healthier.

2) Fi_Sabilillah - I understand your argument and it is a good one. However, would you not agree that those who released the comic publicly are not Muslims (or Muslims in good faith)? Thusly they are not subject to the rules and stipulations of the Qur'an, being that they are entitled their right to freedom of religion which is given to them by God himself? I feel that though the comic does not conform to what you believe it should conform too, it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way, so why must a war be started against it?

3) M H Kahn - You make too many assumptions. I am not catholic this is true, I spent many years in that faith and I do not entirely agree with its teachings. I am certainly not atheist. I have my own belief system which does not conform to any other organized religion that I know of. I do believe in a creator and I recognize this life he has given me as a holy gift. I believe in a final 'judgment' per say and an 'afterlife' as well.

I take humour in the comic not because of who it portrayed. I would think it was funny even if it was a picture of me or my own mother instead; even if it was Jesus (who I do believe in). I am just a light hearted person overall. With the way you talk, its sounds like you are a man who is quick to judgment and (possibly) anger. This is what I believe the comic was trying to satire. You said yourself "This is a direct attack against God and the believers are ordained by God not to hesitate even to die for His cause.". I think it is unhealthy to take this comic as and 'attack'. Is that not a little extreme given the fact that the Cartoon does not harm your belief system? And why does God want you to die for him? If he wanted you dead he would make it so, if he wanted the men from Denmark dead, he would make it so. I believe that you are very quick to be offended which is the problem at present. Also, if your belief system is correct will this man not spend eternity in a hell of his own making whereas you will live in paradise? Why be angry it accomplishes nothing.


4) The amount of Muslims who buy Danish goods, I bet, do not make up enough of the Danish market to really have them feel the pressure put on by a boycott. Besides is a boycott not a tad extreme because you are boycotting more then just the people who made the statement? Boycotting all of Denmark's products because of what one person did makes no more sense then a person hating Muslims because of what 9 Muslims did, does it not?

Once again I'd love to have more feedback. Thank you.
Click to expand...

You have signified in your attempted rebuttal that your freedom of speech enjoins you to call someone, who is obedient to God and His Messanger, a son of bitch and he will, in retort, hug you caressingly. Is it so? What if the same is done to you?
 
Mr McCool, whom do you respect most in your life? Your grandfather? Your preacher at the church? Your best teacher? Name a person who never commit a sin. A person who never say bad thing, a person who always smile, a person who will kiss the orphan, a very soft spoken person, a person who feed an old sick lady whom once put a lot of broken glass(for example) on the small path he always use to go home. Name a person Mr McCool.

A husband who never scold the wife, a husband who will be fasting if the wife did not cook anything for him, a husband who help his wife in house chores.

A man who entertain his friend and make everybody feels that they are his best friend.

A man that each of us love vey mush is Muhammad PBUH. We respect him, we love him. Some of us do not have any vision for life before we know ISlam. What is the target of your life? Why are you here(in this world)? When we learn Islam, deeply in Islam we see so many thing. It is so peaceful when we are in Islam. Who is the one that sacrifice his life, his wealth and everything so that we someday after over 1400 year have the opportunity to know Islam, to embrace Islam, to love Allah?

Can you accept it when people make joke of a person whom you respect very much. Can you imagine somebody draw your picture making love with your own mom? (to that extreme) Will you laugh at it? Will you get angry?

You wont feel anything if I draw a picture of your sister naked, I'm sure of that. It is western culture. But for us if you draw a picture of my sister in that way, I'll kill you man. It is offensive. It is not a joke. It is not funny. I will be very angry, extremely angry. As a woman, of course I'll cry.

What more seeing a well respected men being potrayed that ugly. A dog pissed on Allah's name, a pig wrote the Quran? Bastard! When somebody punch you, won't you punch back? That is natural. Or will you let them beat you till death? The next morning you and your friends' picture appear on paper. 10 man beat to death by a man. What will the readers of the newspaper say?

Hey, I went to Montreal on September last year and somebody want to beat me when I perform solah near a church
 
Selising,
You wont feel anything if I draw a picture of your sister naked, I'm sure of that. It is western culture.
Click to expand...
Do you really think that everybody in western culture is like this? This is a very general way of thinking of a group of people, and you run the risk of others believing that you are a bigot. I am a westerner, and I cam assure you I would be very offended of such a drawing, and so would most of the people I know. Just for the record, I am not a muslim but also think that the cartoons of Muhammud were very disrespectful.
 
Name a person who never commit a sin. A person who never say bad thing, a person who always smile, a person who will kiss the orphan, a very soft spoken person, a person who feed an old sick lady whom once put a lot of broken glass(for example) on the small path he always use to go home. Name a person Mr McCool.

A husband who never scold the wife, a husband who will be fasting if the wife did not cook anything for him, a husband who help his wife in house chores.

A man who entertain his friend and make everybody feels that they are his best friend.
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:sl: MashaAllah!!!

I understand your argument and it is a good one. However, would you not agree that those who released the comic publicly are not Muslims (or Muslims in good faith)? Thusly they are not subject to the rules and stipulations of the Qur'an, being that they are entitled their right to freedom of religion which is given to them by God himself? I feel that though the comic does not conform to what you believe it should conform too, it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way, so why must a war be started against it?
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Hello McCool. Just because the publisher was not a Muslim, it does not mean they have the right to publish an absolutly offensive cartoon, which portrays the prophet pbuh in a totally FALSE way- making it a both LIE and an INSULT. You may argue for 'freedom of speech', but with such freedom comes responsibilty. No one has the right to unjustly degrade anyone else like that.

it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way
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Not true. The cartoon is obvious slander against Islam. It will result with people who already have a false idea about what Islam really is (due to the media) having this false impression emphasised, creating more misunderstandings and intolerance towards Muslims. (though fortunetly, alhamdulilah, it has also results with some people wishing to genuinly leanr more about Islam).

Furthermore, the violent reaction of certian Muslims was uncalled for- this is NOT a justifiable reaction by the Muslims and does not represent Islam.

You would not judge a car by its driver, so dont judge Islam by the Muslims. Judge it by the Quran (holy book) and Sunnah (example of the prophet pbuh)

Peace. :)
 
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malsidab said:
Selising,Do you really think that everybody in western culture is like this? This is a very general way of thinking of a group of people, and you run the risk of others believing that you are a bigot. I am a westerner, and I cam assure you I would be very offended of such a drawing, and so would most of the people I know. Just for the record, I am not a muslim but also think that the cartoons of Muhammud were very disrespectful.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry for my generalisation, but I understand that westerner just don't mind wearing bikini in public. Seeing or doing it. Wearing that 2 piece for me is just as good as wearing nothing.

My ultimate point is, what is normal to most westerner (u and some r exluded), what they see as funny, what they see as jokes, is not normal to us, is not funny and offensive
 
McCool said:
I'll go in order here

1) aljawaad - I would make it my business if someone insulted my family, religious views, political views, moral views etc. to be as un-offended as possible. Being mad, offended and angry at everything gets nothing done, being mad is just a tool used for justifying something that has been done. I also believe that nearly all of the actions of Muslims in regards to this situation are unreasonable (as apposed to the "some" you said). As well the actions they carry out do not limit the risk to themselves. I think it is safe to say that most of the rioters are outwardly aggressive. I agree with the quote you gave me from the Qur'an in regards to being patient and I wish more Muslims took that stand, for I feel it to be much healthier.

2) Fi_Sabilillah - I understand your argument and it is a good one. However, would you not agree that those who released the comic publicly are not Muslims (or Muslims in good faith)? Thusly they are not subject to the rules and stipulations of the Qur'an, being that they are entitled their right to freedom of religion which is given to them by God himself? I feel that though the comic does not conform to what you believe it should conform too, it does not threaten your views or harm you in any way, so why must a war be started against it?

3) M H Kahn - You make too many assumptions. I am not catholic this is true, I spent many years in that faith and I do not entirely agree with its teachings. I am certainly not atheist. I have my own belief system which does not conform to any other organized religion that I know of. I do believe in a creator and I recognize this life he has given me as a holy gift. I believe in a final 'judgment' per say and an 'afterlife' as well.

I take humour in the comic not because of who it portrayed. I would think it was funny even if it was a picture of me or my own mother instead; even if it was Jesus (who I do believe in). I am just a light hearted person overall. With the way you talk, its sounds like you are a man who is quick to judgment and (possibly) anger. This is what I believe the comic was trying to satire. You said yourself "This is a direct attack against God and the believers are ordained by God not to hesitate even to die for His cause.". I think it is unhealthy to take this comic as and 'attack'. Is that not a little extreme given the fact that the Cartoon does not harm your belief system? And why does God want you to die for him? If he wanted you dead he would make it so, if he wanted the men from Denmark dead, he would make it so. I believe that you are very quick to be offended which is the problem at present. Also, if your belief system is correct will this man not spend eternity in a hell of his own making whereas you will live in paradise? Why be angry it accomplishes nothing.


4) The amount of Muslims who buy Danish goods, I bet, do not make up enough of the Danish market to really have them feel the pressure put on by a boycott. Besides is a boycott not a tad extreme because you are boycotting more then just the people who made the statement? Boycotting all of Denmark's products because of what one person did makes no more sense then a person hating Muslims because of what 9 Muslims did, does it not?

Once again I'd love to have more feedback. Thank you.
Click to expand...

1) I wont buy that crap. Huh. You yourself said it 'i'll make it my business if someone insult my family.... to be as unoffended as possible' This means that you'll try to be as unoffended as you can but yet you can still be offended. So its the same case for us Muslims. We tolerate but there's a limit.
Tell me something, won't you get sting if you put your head in a honeycomb, constantly annoying them? Well that's what these cartoonists are doing.

2) Why should a war be started against that? Nice question. Ok you said that they have the right of freedom of religion, so we too have that much right. So why do they have to make fun of our religion? If they want to make fun then why dont they make fun of their own religion? Oh i got it its because that wont look nice, one making fun of his own religion. So this doesnt mean that you can make fun of our RELIGION. You make fun of Us, disgrace us and when we ask for appologies, you refuse to appologise and then you dont want us to make war. Huh.

3) So you are that type of person. Even if someone disrespect your parents you'll stay quite and watch. You don't value the honour of your parents. Huh so how can you value religion. I think that we are losing our time with you.

4) At least we are trying to defend our honour. We are not like you, who doent even respect your parents. ("I would make it my business......to be as unoffended as possible"

​
 
:sl:

I think again i would need to point out that to understand why WE Muslims are soo angry and offended by these pictures is to understand HOW we feel about our Prophet PBHU!

I think and DONT take me wrong but amoung Most Westners Insults have become something amusing! I mean its become normal to put on your TV and find someone making fun of the Queen and Prime Minster. I have also seen live Comedian Shows where Comedians are making fun of thier OWN culture and Religion. What you need to undertstand as My sis Selising did say What may be normal to you MAY not be to us!

Yes i agree that we live in a mix society and so we should try and adapt to that BUT does that mean we should accept OUR religion to be abused in such a disgusting manner. Many of US muslims have adapted to the Culture of the Socities that we live in, i,e We speak English, Wear English Clothing HOWEVER one identity that is MORE important to us than our Nationality is OUR RELIGION and when it comes to this we cant comprimise! AND we cant accept insults!
 
McCool,

Dont fall into the trap of believing that 'islam is extremism', and dont believe that what extremists do in the name of a religion, is representative of that religion, or that wrong-doers are true followers of that faith. In northern ireland, 3000 people were killed by 'catholics' or 'protestants' - but guess what, they were not christians, such activities are not in any way christian.

Also, people have a right to protest, you being raised in a catholic home, your parents would be outraged if they saw cartoons of Jesus performing disgusting acts, or the virgin mary being raped, enough to perhaps take to the streets to protest?

Most of the protests have been peaceful, and flag burning and chanting is kind of standard practice for protestors. All protests attract trouble makers, and I am sure that when protests have turned ugly, the trouble makers are not burning the embassy down because of an edict passed to them at a mosque, they are just trouble makers hell bent on trouble.

Jez
 

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