Women face curbs in Makka mosque

**Hajar** · 08-29-2006

Women face curbs in Makka mosque
Monday 28 August 2006, 13:43 Makka Time, 10:43 GMT

Religious leaders in Saudi Arabia want to impose restrictions on women praying in the Grand Mosque in Makka, one of the few places where male and female worshippers intermingle.

But women activists in the kingdom, the birthplace of the religion and where a strict interpretation of Islam is imposed, say the idea is discriminatory and have vowed to oppose it.

At present, women can pray in the immediate vicinity of the Kaaba, a cube-shaped structure inside the mosque, believed to have been built by Ibrahim (Abraham) - seen by Muslims as a prophet - and his son.

Muslims walk around this seven times according to rites first established by Ibrahim and re-established by Prophet Muhammad.

Plans by the all-male committee overseeing the holy sites would place women in a distant section of the mosque while men would still be able to pray in the key space.

Not final

Osama al-Bar, head of the Institute for Haj Research, said: "The area is very small and so crowded. So we decided to get women out of the sahn [Kaaba area] to a better place where they can see the Kaaba and have more space.

"Some women thought it wasn't good, but from our point of view it will be better for them ... We can sit with them and explain to them what the decision is."

The decision is not final, he said, and could be reversed.

Pushing and shoving is common in the tight space around the Kaaba where thousands of pilgrims crowd mainly during haj.

Worshippers can walk round the Kaaba at any other time as well.

The plans are likely to provoke a furore among Muslim women in countries whose traditions are less strict.

Muslims say it is a basic right to be able to pray as close as possible to the Kaaba.

It is towards the Kaaba that Muslims around the world turn when praying.

'Discrimination'

Suhaila Hammad, a Saudi woman member of a body of world Muslim scholars, said: "Both men and women have the right to pray in the House of God. Men have no right to take it away.

"Men and women mix when they circumambulate the Kaaba, so do they want to make us do that somewhere else too?

"This is discrimination against women."

The Grand Mosque is one of the few places where men and women pray together, although technically there are separate spaces for each gender throughout the vast complex.

Religious police charged with imposing order ensure that women do not pray outside the prescribed areas.

Hatoun al-Fassi, a historian, said the move to restrict women's prayer in the mosque would be a first in Islamic history.

"Perhaps they want women to disappear from any public prayer area and when it comes to the holy mosques that's their ultimate aim," she said.

She said that the religious authorities have already restricted women's access at Prophet Muhammad's burial place in Madina.

Source: http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...3B67C97653.htm

**therebbe** · 08-30-2006

That would suck if discrimination based on Gender would prevail.

**north_malaysian** · 08-30-2006

The first time in Muslim history? .... that's innovation... and all innovations of religion is haraaam!!!

I'm against this discriminatory acts.... women pay money too to visit Mecca. If Saudi approve this they must give 90% discount for hajj visa for women.

**sonz** · 08-30-2006

salama

chk this

"The area is very small and so crowded. So we decided to get women out of the sahn (Ka`bah esplanade) to a better place where they can see the Ka`bah and have more space," Osama Al-Bar, head of the Institute for Haj Research, told Reuters on Monday, August 28.

"Some women thought it wasn't good, but from our point of view it will be better for them...We can sit with them and explain to them what the decision is (about)," he added.

According to Al-Bar, the proposal is not final and could be reversed.

http://islamonline.net/English/News/2006-08/29/05.shtml

chk what a sist said on another forum

What difference does it make if one prays right in front of kaba (in front row) or 10 rows behind??
as long as they are in haram (in the Mosque itself) they still get same reward, they won't get more reward for being right in front of kaba.
actually, they could be sining if they insist on being in front and it causes harm to them or others, by pushing shoving, and standing right next to men in prayer when they can avoid that. (of course you wouldn't understand this because you dont' see anything wrong with even sleeping with men)

Also, they said there will be more space for them instead of crowding in front of kaba and maybe cause harm to themselves and others.
Many people have been hurt because of shoving and pushing and crowding in front of kaba, people out of ignorance think it is better to pray there or to touch the black stone duruing tawaf, and dont' know that it is ok just to point from far away if there is a crowd, so those people wether men or women who push and shove just to get to the stone are sining because they are causing harm to themselves andothers and can even cause death by trampling.
I know an Afghani sister who was with us in Hajj, and she told us that she insisted on getting close to Kaba while doing tawaf (circulating around kaba) and then she prayed right close to maqam Ibrahim where it is very crowded so one big man ended up sitting right on her head (he fell on her head) because of pushing and shoving and she thought she was going to die by her head getting crushed, and her husband was yelling for him to get off and alhamduilllah she was saved.
I think she learned from that, not to do that again and not to insist on being right in front.

i agree with her

masalama

**soulsociety** · 08-30-2006

Regarding getting head crushed, it would still happen but between men. Because it's not pushing and shoving just between men and women, but between men and men, women and men, and women and women. What the Saudis appear to want to do is segregate the pushing and shoving, so men push and shove eachother in one area and women push and shove eachother in another area.

What happened to the Afghani sister is not because she was a woman, but because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

**sonz** · 08-30-2006

Originally Posted by soulsociety

Regarding getting head crushed, it would still happen but between men. Because it's not pushing and shoving just between men and women, but between men and men, women and men, and women and women. What the Saudis appear to want to do is segregate the pushing and shoving, so men push and shove eachother in one area and women push and shove eachother in another area.

What happened to the Afghani sister is not because she was a woman, but because she was in the wrong place at the wrong time.

that doesnt make sense

women are weaker physically so they easily be crushed by men and they will have more space and better place where they can see the kabah

**S_87** · 08-30-2006

yes this article is misleading. they arent proposing a ban for women just moving women slightly back to give them more space. how words can be twisted

**afriend** · 08-30-2006

This is wrong...IF rasoolAllah [saw] did not oppose this then who on earth are they to set this restriction?

Does that mean that women wont be allowed near the ka'abah at prayer times? That sucks

**Vaseline** · 08-30-2006

Originally Posted by Iqram

This is wrong...IF rasoolAllah [saw] did not oppose this then who on earth are they to set this restriction?

Does that mean that women wont be allowed near the ka'abah at prayer times? That sucks

I agree. Plus, it would take the women more time to perform the religious activity/ies (specifically referring to hajj and umrah) which to an extent is a good thing, but then her husband/brother/mahram would have to wait until she has finished.

**S_87** · 08-30-2006

Originally Posted by Iqram

This is wrong...IF rasoolAllah [saw] did not oppose this then who on earth are they to set this restriction?

Does that mean that women wont be allowed near the ka'abah at prayer times? That sucks

they are making MORE space for the women

the best spaces for a woman is at the back anyway.

also in the time of Muhammed

the time was pure. no muslim man would perve on a woman away from the kaabah compared to today where men purposely touch women right in Masjid al Haram

**afriend** · 08-30-2006

That's between them and Allah....

I don't believe in collective punnishment...

**Najiullah** · 08-30-2006

For more Information plz check these links

http://www.islamicboard.com/465502-post1.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/465800-post6.html

http://www.islamicboard.com/general-...t-shifted.html

**soulsociety** · 08-30-2006

Originally Posted by amani

they are making MORE space for the women

the best spaces for a woman is at the back anyway.

also in the time of Muhammed

the time was pure. no muslim man would perve on a woman away from the kaabah compared to today where men purposely touch women right in Masjid al Haram

That's cliche. You can say that for everything. Also wasn't there a case of a man who complained of his wife allowing herself to be groped/not turning the hands of pervs away, the Prophet (SAW) said to him to divorce her, the man says he loves her, the Prophet (SAW) said then keep her.

Ibn Abbas narrates:
A man came to the Prophet and said: Verily I have got a wife who does not retract the hand of a toucher. The Prophet said: "Divorce her". He said : "I love her". The Prophet said: "Keep her in that case." (Al Bukhari). Quoted in an article by Ahmed R. A. Ragab. Associate Professor of Reproductive Health, International Islamic Center for Population Studies and Research at Al-Azhar University, Egypt.

**S_87** · 08-30-2006

my point is the times then was different to the times now.....

**soulsociety** · 08-30-2006

erm... not really, there never was a utopia. Paradise is the utopia.

**Durrah** · 08-30-2006

Wait, will this proposal be implented during hajj time as well, or is this mainly for the non hajj period?

If this 'rule' goes through in effect for hajj (and in general), then thats terriable. Im sorry but i wanna pray next to the kaba! Why should i be moved simply because of my genetalia! I find that bang out of order. Not only that, it'll be terriable if such a move was implented during hajj because it means women and their marahams will be seperated and anyone whos been hajj knows the diffficulty it is to find people. I mean say if i go hajj with my dad or husband alone (without no other women with me) and i got shoved to another area, it would mean i would be alone and finding them would be so hard, especially as its packed and anything could happen to me. But if they were praying next to me, in the same area, then obviously i'd be much safer!

Stupid goverment! They're always coming up with new ways to make life harder for women, simply because they're women and guise it under islam and tell them that they're doing the women a favour!

I hope this plan gets ditched!

**BlissfullyJaded** · 08-30-2006

Just out of curiousity, when there is less crowd and such, will women be able to at least go and touch the Kabah? Or is there a restriction then too? They can always do tawaf on the other other levels, which is better anyway.

InshaAllah its for the best though.

**Najiullah** · 08-30-2006

Originally Posted by Labibah

Just out of curiousity, when there is less crowd and such, will women be able to at least go and touch the Kabah? Or is there a restriction then too? They can always do tawaf on the other other levels, which is better anyway.

InshaAllah its for the best though.

there will be no rectriction officailly

women can do tawaf and touch kaba but not 30 min before prayers

**S_87** · 08-30-2006

Originally Posted by Labibah

Just out of curiousity, when there is less crowd and such, will women be able to at least go and touch the Kabah? Or is there a restriction then too? They can always do tawaf on the other other levels, which is better anyway.

InshaAllah its for the best though.

from what im understanding they are just moving that official womens area further back

could be wrong though

**Najiullah** · 08-30-2006

Originally Posted by amani

from what im understanding they are just moving that official womens area further back

could be wrong though

they wont let them pray in mataf.( farz namaz)
but there will be no rectrictions on tawaf and touching kaaba and praying nafil ( i said offically because thats what they are saying at this point. its possible that when u go there gaurds wont let u pray nafil and...........)