EGENSBURG, Germany — In what some immediately saw as a serious diversion from the rapprochement approach of his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday, September 12, said the Islamic concepts of "Jihad" was unreasonable and against God's nature.
Using the words, "Jihad" and "Holy War" in lecture at the University of Regensburg, the pontiff quoted criticism of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) by a 14th Century Byzantine Christian emperor, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached," Benedict quoted Manuel II.
Quoting the Byzantine Christian emperor, Benedict said spreading the faith through violence is unreasonable and that acting without reason was against God's nature.
"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," added the pontiff in his own words.
British Karen Armstrong, a famed prolific writer on all three monotheistic religions, has criticized stereotyping the Arabic word "jihad" as merely meaning holy war.
She stressed that "jihad is a cherished spiritual value that, for most Muslims, has no connection with violence."
At a giant open-air mass earlier Tuesday, Pope Benedict urged more than 250,000 pilgrims to stand up for their beliefs in the face of the "hatred and fanaticism" tarnishing religion.
"Such an atmosphere made it important to state clearly the God in whom we believe," the pope said.
Strongest criticism
"This is maybe the strongest criticism because he doesn’t speak of fundamentalist Islam but of Islam generally," said Guolo.
Pope's criticism of Islam made his address the most political of his six-day visit to Germany, which had previously dealt exclusively with spiritual matters, commented AFP.
"This is maybe the strongest criticism because he doesn’t speak of fundamentalist Islam but of Islam generally," Renzo Guolo, a professor of the sociology of religion at the University of Padua, told The New York Times on Wednesday, September 13.
"Not all Islam, thank God, is fundamentalist."
Marco Politi, the Vatican expert for the Italian daily La Repubblica, said the pontiff's speech revealed "deep mistrust regarding the aggressive side of Islam."
"Certainly he closes the door to an idea which was very dear to John Paul II — the idea that Christians, Jews and Muslims have the same God and have to pray together to the same God," he asserted.
Daniel A. Madigan, rector of the Institute for the Study of Religions and Cultures at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, agreed.
"If we are really going into a serious dialogue with Muslims we need to take faith seriously."
But papal spokesman Father Federico Lombardi sought to ease the severity of the Pope's rebukes of Islam.
He argued that the pontiff used Manuel's views of Islam only to help explain the issue and not to condemn all of the Muslim religion as violent.
"This is just an example. We know that inside Islam there are many different positions, violent and non-violent," he said.
"The Pope does not want to give an interpretation of Islam that is violent."
Unlike late pope John Paul, Cardinal Ratzinger, who took the name of Benedict after his election, does not approve of joint prayers with Muslims.
He is also skeptical of the value of inter-religious dialogue.
In the summer of 2005, Pope Benedict devoted an annual weekend of study with former graduate students to Islam.
During the meeting, and since, he has reportedly expressed skepticism about Islam’s openness to change given the conviction that the Noble Quran is the unchangeable word of God.
In 2004, Pope Benedict also caused a stir by opposing Turkey's accession into the European Union.
He said Turkey should seek its future in an association of Islamic nations, not with the EU, which has Christian roots
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
Am I mixed up?
Rou stated
"you say no other religon reacts in this way? thats beacuse we dont take lightly to anyone over stepping the line with our religon allah comes first then everything else..."
So violence is ok in defense of Islam? Even when defending it from offensive words or pictures?
No you don't.
The examples you cited are for ACTS not WORDS. The Christian extremist bombs abortion clinics (which is wrong) for what they DO not what they SAY.
So the murder suspect in the Hindu extremist link must have actually done it then?
When a writer writes or a artist draws or a filmaker films something offensive to non-Muslims you don't see these violent often lethal demonstrations, or acts of homicide at anywhere near the same frequency as when Muslims are offended.
Do not assume simply because you do not hear about other religous followers' antics at demonstrations as frequently as those of their Muslim counterparts, that the former do not frequently react violently. Case in point.
Some on this very board have claimed it's a good thing that Muslims are so protective of their religion. Fine, but if you think violence is a valid response to insulting words you are not a peaceful person. If it is a part of Islam then Islam is not a peaceful religion.
It's not a part of Islam to beome violent in anger. It's a part of some people's violent tendencies, and those people should be dealt with as the law of the land provides.
What is a part of Islam is to be protective about one's religion.
And the logic that because some on this forum say one thing, they must be reflecting what Islam teaches, is severely flawed so don't use it.
"And the logic that because some on this forum say one thing, they must be reflecting what Islam teaches, is severely flawed so don't use it."
I'm not concerned with what Islam teaches. I'm concerned with how it's self proclaimed adherents think and behave. Whether you consider them "real" Muslims or not is inconsequential.
Your link to the Buddist free for all is not at all analogous. They were not threatening violence to the members of another religion because of some percieved VERBAL offence.
My point is not that members of other religions are not violent. My point is that no adherents to any other modern religion are as quick to react with violence and even deadly violence to mere VERBAL or WRITTEN or DRAWN insults.
i hope now that he apologized everyone will let go of it and i hope non muslims will learn their lesson once and for all. this is not the first time ppl attack islam and the prophet for no appearant reason...
and the reason u dont hear about other religion followers being voilent coz when someone do something they dont mention his religion,. i mean mossoulini was christian right?? and what would u (christians) do if someone attacked jesus or drew offensive pics of him??
why shoulh we apologize for calling others in names when other attack our prophet whom we love more than our own selves saying he brought nothing but evil?? what would u think if we didnt do anything?? ud probably think it is true.
but i still dont think burning churches isnt the way to deal with it, i mean theyre not even catholics.
all i can say is: وادع الي سبيل ربك بالحكمة والموعظة الحسنة
I'm not concerned with what Islam teaches. I'm concerned with how it's self proclaimed adherents think and behave.
Yes I too am concerned about this as well. Many of the brothers and sisters out there trying to guide the misguided.
format_quote Originally Posted by blunderbus
My point is not that members of other religions are not violent. My point is that no adherents to any other modern religion are as quick to react with violence and even deadly violence to mere VERBAL or WRITTEN or DRAWN insults.
There are over 2 billion muslims in this world. What is the percentage of muslims who have reacted violently to what the Pope said when comparing with over 2 BILLION?
To say that you dont care what the Islam teaches and only care about the action of a very very Veeeery small number (Less then one percent of overall muslims poppulation!) of muslims who commit atrocities in the name of islam, even though islam condemns such atrocities, is very ignorant of you. Indeed one questions why you have joined this forum?
Indeed if every individual were to think like you Islam wouldn't be the fastest growing religion in the world. If i thought like you I wouldn't be a Muslim (Mashallah I am) let alone anything else! Many have the common sense to judge islam based on the ideals taught by the Qur'an and sunnah. The guidance from these two sources must be adhered to by all who claim to be muslims. Similiarly I judge other beleif, way of life and system based on the ideals it teaches.
If you ask me to write derogatory comments about other beliefs and way of life based on the actions of a individuals who have those beliefs then my literature would be endless. Every individual can be classified into a category of belief, such as athiests, agnostic, apostate, budhist, christians etc. Lets not have double standards and look at the atrocities commited by Bush, a christian leader (or so he claims!) AGAINST THE MUSLIMS. Lets not forget the atrocities commited by Israel, a jewish nation (Or so they claim!) AGAINST THE MUSLIMS.
On the contrary the number of muslims dying due to oppression from corrupt leaders, both foreign and national, are the highest. The oppression has reached such extremes some result to commiting suicide which is forbidden by Islam. And when muslims try to defend them selves many find ways to critisise them.
Why is it that Muslims are always involved when you hear the affairs of the world? Its because it is the only way of life/religion which incorperates both corperal and spiritual aspects of life. It is the only way of life with a practical guide to all aspects of life, from birth to death. It is so complete and perfect many see its ideals as a threat because it will bring an end to their selfish way of life.
I dare say no one can prove from Quran,the devine revelation from the one true God, that Islam promotes violence towards mankind as a whole. Our prophet Mohammad(SAW) followed the Quran perfectly and in doing so earned the title best of all creation.
"Yes, you do. Some crazy Christian extremists like to burn down abortion clinics; some insane Hindu extremists like to kill Christian business men who are accused of killing their wives; some nutty Buddhist extremists like to target churches in Sri Lanka."
No you don't.
The examples you cited are for ACTS not WORDS. The Christian extremist bombs abortion clinics (which is wrong) for what they DO not what they SAY.
When a writer writes or a artist draws or a filmaker films something offensive to non-Muslims you don't see these violent often lethal demonstrations, or acts of homicide at anywhere near the same frequency as when Muslims are offended.
Some on this very board have claimed it's a good thing that Muslims are so protective of their religion. Fine, but if you think violence is a valid response to insulting words you are not a peaceful person. If it is a part of Islam then Islam is not a peaceful religion.
seems you have a problem with muslims getting angry with people who write or say things about there religon??
so with your example we should just calmly sit there while people insult our prophet and our religon?? (not saying attacking churches is the right action mind you) im talking getting angry?
look mate i for one am glad muslims dont sit quitley while people walk over there religon and use there belifs as jest as happens in the west its called respect for your maker!
as many have already stated to you without yourself listening that is ..that no one here is saying attacking churches is the right action...that is againt islam not that it sounds like you wish to hear that or consider that to be true as we all stated we cant contril every so called muslim just as every christian cant be controlled...
simple...
however if you expect muslims to keep there mouth shut then thats your issue...thats a joke to me i pray more people take there faith in such a manner that no one ever thinks they may speak about jesus PBUH in such a manner to disrespect him but unfortunatly this is common in the west to make jest of that which is holy with no fear...
with muslims THERE IS a line and it should not be crossed...
just beacuse its ok in the west to disrespect holy prophets or places that does not mean you should expect the same from all faiths...
wether words or writings disrespect is disrespect....we dont all live by your rules..
Rise oh lions! Dawnoftheummah.com
:blind: F@te Is a blind path..you will see when you get there...:cresentbl
Am I mixed up?
Rou stated
"you say no other religon reacts in this way? thats beacuse we dont take lightly to anyone over stepping the line with our religon allah comes first then everything else..."
So violence is ok in defense of Islam? Even when defending it from offensive words or pictures?
if your reffering to my posts then dont ask others im right here
u seem to read more than is stated hey?? why not ask instead of making up assumptions...
however i will explain...
yes if a person goes too far indeed sometimes it may become violent but as i stated not against any innocents?
lol if bob stepped on the quran i would break HIS leg not jims understand??
i would not attack a church if a christian called bob stepped on a quran beacuse the christian faith has not insulted me only bob has and indeed he would have much to fear...
if this does not make sense to you then well...what more can i say if you dont mind someone stepping on your bible and your fine with that then that is your issue and you will answer to god not me...
Rise oh lions! Dawnoftheummah.com
:blind: F@te Is a blind path..you will see when you get there...:cresentbl
In no way do I believe Muslims in general support such rioting. But to be honest, I can't say whether Islam does or does not justify it. I am not knowledgable enough to say. All I can say is that it is my impression that Islam is serious about defending itself, but I doubt it allows such 'private initiative' on this matter.
Well there are strict regulations to what is permissable in jihad and when it is permisable. Even the destruction of proporty isn't alowed. Muslims have been instructed by the Prophet not to pillage or plunder or destroy residential areas, nor harm the property of anyone not fighting. It has been narrated in the Hadith: "The Prophet has prohibited the Believers from loot and plunder" (Bukhari, Abu Dawood) So much for teh riots.
there's a lot more rules where that one came from, here's the major lines: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_war_in_Islam
Sorry. I don't believe that. I believe those who are now outraged are so outraged exactly because they love Allah so much and feel a need to defend him.
I see where your coming from, but what Woodrow meant; or at least what I think he meant, I can't speak in his place obviously. Is that these guys don't act out of obediance to Allah since they violate his rules. No they act out of vanity and self love. They don't have the power to swallow their vanity when someone else says they are wrong, and feel teh need to act upon it. Retaliation is never a defensive action.
"And the logic that because some on this forum say one thing, they must be reflecting what Islam teaches, is severely flawed so don't use it."
I'm not concerned with what Islam teaches. I'm concerned with how it's self proclaimed adherents think and behave. Whether you consider them "real" Muslims or not is inconsequential.
Your link to the Buddist free for all is not at all analogous. They were not threatening violence to the members of another religion because of some percieved VERBAL offence.
My point is not that members of other religions are not violent. My point is that no adherents to any other modern religion are as quick to react with violence and even deadly violence to mere VERBAL or WRITTEN or DRAWN insults.
?? this is totally contradictrey to whay you have been on about all along this thread then why are you talking about islam at all??? talk about christians and jews and all humans who suddenley decide its ok to knock someone out beacuse there drunk and feel like causing trouble!?
someone who uses words to insult islam will be taught with words that what they say is untrue and if they persist to insult islam then i doubt a muslim will stand by and let someone insult them...
would a human who can over power another human sit there and let the other insult there mother??? very doubtful...
however that seems fine to get in to a fight overe someone insulting there mother but to fight for your religon is strange is it???
within islam it is stated to protect your religon...im not saying to use violence against anyone who would say things about islam but i will not lie and say i will stand by while someone continues to insult my prophet or religon...
then again in the west i have seen 98% of violence is non religon based so u can hardley say its due to religon so does that make it more accepted does it!? majority of violence in the west is by drunks , thieves and random acts of violence also other unecessary acts...
is that better is it? how much happy slapping of OAP's do you see in the middle east?
Rise oh lions! Dawnoftheummah.com
:blind: F@te Is a blind path..you will see when you get there...:cresentbl
and no one said attacking churches is a good response to the popes words as this whole thread has been saying..
this sums everything up perfectly, now stop going in circles, some of the things said r just ridiculous and comes to show how ignorant about islam some ppl can be
and i think its time to go back to the original topic, shall we?
I think this sister said it best, we muslims should really consider our reactions..lets all calm down (woosaa...) say Alhamdulillah, Allah gave us a huge blessing in the form of the Prophet (saw) and ofcourse our beautiful deen, is this the message they mock at?
In the Name of Allah, The Beneficent The Merciful
Say: He is God, the one and only;
God, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him.
It is Allah, except Whom there is no God; the King, the Pure, the Giver of Peace, the Bestower of Safety, the Protector, the Most Honourable, the Compeller, the Proud; Purity is to Allah from all what they ascribe as partners (to Him)! Al-Quran 59:23
does anyoen know why did he say that or was it out of the blue??
Simple he wanted media attention and we Muslims are famous for make ppl and their statement famous
When Abi Talib was asked to convince the Messenger of Allah he the holy Prophet SAW said : "O uncle, if they were to put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand to stop me from preaching Islam, I would never stop. I will keep preaching until Allah makes Islam prevail or I die."
Btw the GERMAN pope apologized as soon as his mission ( media attention ) was attained . btw we'll make him famous ......... billy the kid has gone missing since he (pope ) spoke
When Abi Talib was asked to convince the Messenger of Allah he the holy Prophet SAW said : "O uncle, if they were to put the sun in my right hand and the moon in my left hand to stop me from preaching Islam, I would never stop. I will keep preaching until Allah makes Islam prevail or I die."
I think Muslims should consider the next move very carefully ... we need to be wise ... less emotional more aware ... why do we not address these issues with Muslim scholars to find the best approach rather than the usual absent mindedness in response ... what do other members think?
good thread. i hope the reaction is peaceful and doesn't feed the islamophobes.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
why do we not address these issues with Muslim scholars to find the best approach rather than the usual absent mindedness in response ... what do other members think?
This is commen sense and doesn't need a scholar, the prophet(pbuh) said: "The strong one is he who controls him self when angry", Some muslims need to stop and think before ranting and raving while at the same time neglecting the sunnah it's ironic.
You never know what is inside people's hearts.. maybe pope did genuinely say those things in stride or maybe he said it on purpose.. we wont know for sure
(29:2-3) Do men think they will be left alone on saying, "We believe", and they will not be tested? For sure we will test them as we have tested those who came before them, to show (them) the truthful of the honest and the liars in their falsehood."
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