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Veil related posts and threads combined

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    Veil related posts and threads combined (OP)




    Cabinet Minister Jack Straw has said he would prefer Muslim women not to wear veils which cover the face.
    The Commons leader said he did not want to be "prescriptive" but he believed that covering people's faces could make community relations more difficult.

    Mr Straw has said he asks Muslim women at his Blackburn constituency surgeries if they would mind removing veils.

    Some Muslim women called his remarks insulting, but other Muslims said they understood his concerns.

    Mr Straw has dismissed suggestions that his remarks are designed to raise his profile ahead of Labour's deputy leadership election.

    He has yet to confirm whether he will join the race to succeed John Prescott but is widely expected to do so.

    Meeting strangers

    Mr Straw is Labour MP for Blackburn, where between 25% and 30% of residents are Muslim.

    He sparked controversy when he told his local paper he asked female constituents visiting his surgery if they would uncover their faces.

    He said he made sure he had a female colleague in the room when asking someone to show their mouth and nose - and his constituents had so far always agreed to do so.

    Asked on BBC Radio 4's Today programme if he would rather the veils be discarded completely, Mr Straw replied: "Yes. It needs to be made clear I am not talking about being prescriptive but with all the caveats, yes, I would rather."


    Mr Straw explained the impact he thought veils could have in a society where watching facial expressions was important for contact between different people.

    "Communities are bound together partly by informal chance relations between strangers - people being able to acknowledge each other in the street or being able pass the time of day," he said.

    "That's made more difficult if people are wearing a veil. That's just a fact of life.

    "I understand the concerns but I hope, however, there can be a mature debate about this.

    "I come to this out of a profound commitment to equal rights for Muslim communities and an equal concern about adverse development about parallel communities."

    'Separateness' fears

    Mr Straw stressed it was a choice for women and he was making a request and not a demand.

    "What I've been struck by when I've been talking to some of the ladies concerned is that they had not, I think, been fully aware of the potential in terms of community relations," he said.

    "I mean, they'd thought of it just as a statement for themselves, in some cases they regard themselves as very religious - and I respect that - but as I say, I just wanted to put this issue on the table."

    He said he was worried the "implications of separateness" and the development of "parallel communities".

    Tony Blair's official spokesman said the prime minister "believes that it is right that people should be able to have a discussion and express their personal views on issues such as this".

    The spokesman said Mr Straw's comments were not government policy and he refused to reveal Mr Blair's views on the issue.

    'Dangerous doctrine'

    Mr Straw's comments have provoked a mixed response from Muslim groups.

    The Islamic Human Rights Commission called Mr Straw's views "astonishing" and accused him of discrimination.

    The Protect-Hijab organisation said the "appalling" comments showed "a deep lack of understanding".

    But Dr Daud Abdullah, of the Muslim Council of Britain, said he could understand Mr Straw's discomfort adding that women could choose to remove the veil.

    Labour's Baroness Uddin said debate was needed but perhaps not in the way Mr Straw had framed it.

    She was worried he had talked about veils being a statement of separation - that acknowledged the government's failure to ensure Muslim women were "part and parcel" of British society, she argued.

    Conservative policy director Oliver Letwin said it would be "dangerous doctrine" to tell people how to dress.

    And Liberal Democrat president Simon Hughes: "The experience of visiting their MP is difficult enough for many people without having to consider a dress code."



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    Veil related posts and threads combined

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    Re: Veil related posts and threads combined

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    format_quote Originally Posted by IsaAbdullah View Post
    In honesty I don't get it.

    People say it stops the community from intergrating and so forth.

    Fair enough, but what sort of intergrationg? One where a man speaks to a woman without need?

    Because alot of Muslims wouldn't want that anyway.

    I mean, honestly, the veil is for women not to be seen much by whom? Males, so if it's stopping this sort of 'intergration' then surely that is the purpose.

    I mean as soon as you want the females to intergrate with other females then the veil wouldnt even be there because they don't have to keep it infront of women.

    So theres no fus, if people think Muslim women should 'intergrate' with men more than theres no chance, i think.

    But if they want them to intergrate with women, then the veil is no problem.

    I mean, it seems this intergration business is just used and people think its the whole community, while the only intergration that is not happening because of the veil, is the coming together of the women with men. Which is something fundamental in Islam.

    Exactly!
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    Re: Veil related posts and threads combined

    Alaykomuassalamu Warahmathallahi Warabarakathahai

    Waram Noora_z3 and IsaAbdullah

    I am in precise agreement with both of you, and you are far more astute in being able to pinpoint the agenda when it comes to the real regard we all must take for our Hijab.

    I might have just won a war with my mother around mine this day; and there are clear signs that the even the kafir shaytan in this location are already commenced to fall into the alignment of Prophesy around Revelations and the Synagogue of Satan; Insha Allah,

    The gog and magog crisis came to a head here with the pattern of now busted out into the open in our Indigenous cultural genetic memory. It is that one of those genetic switches has just been switched in our racial memories. But there were different parts of the Aboriginal community whom had different switches already turned on, in the neuro-chemistry of the pre-frontal cortex and what it is which we regard ourselves most accountible by.

    Many had the postural switch on, but not the appearance switch. Already there are persons whom never yet wore the veil manifesting in their self projections as though they are in veil.

    The gog and magog battle is cause through the impact of the Behemoth's black magic upon the cultural values of northern Asia. The Han dynasty of China exempliy the problem, along side that of nazi Germany, and curiously both had skyrocketing inflation, but in a reverse eventual effect. This is clear by the impact of world war two in China having reconciled into the one child family government policy as the resolution to the cultural revolution.

    The problem occurs when there are racial features which can readily comply with accepting the need to traverse the fire of Jahannam, but which are not yet finding the way out of the Dajjal's trick. The pattern in China is of believing that a house is the symbol of all that is possible to be saved of ones entire self; while food that is consumed , and any other commodity, are symbols of the appearance of what we will take into the fire to burn. The difficulty is in respect of the accumulation of appearance of idols in respect of housing. But in general the Taoist backdrop of all Chinese cutlural belief insists that the Chinese must regard that only the oldest known examples of what is that self good enough to survive are able to be accepted in Jannah. Yet that causes battles over the older surviving housing, and in which the resolution occurs when houses burn and then the whole pattern is put together with the patterning of believing that through our own demise we are able to cause the demise of whom ever has falsely accused us. That is when the Torah becomes abrogated by Shari'ah. That is all that is really appropriate for this thread but the whom management of the cultural patterns which determine: a) what genetics exist; and b) what genetic codes are switched on at any given time; and also the history patterns in which such are being studied, is the science we require to inform the overall patterning of our cultural regard for one another so as to avoid The Dajjal.

    The problem of not wanting Hijab is at its most extreme when intermarriage occurs between the genetics of far north east Asian origin and either black skin genetic pattern; if the genetic pattern prevalent as blonde hair and blue eyes is not first mixed with the Chinese type pattern. The melting pot ideology is the truth but it needs a specialised sequence. When the Chinese genetic mixes first with a black skin forming genetic it manifests desire for the gog and magog pattern. Even the proponents of the gog and magog pattern know that and themselves only intermarry with caucasian and innuit genetic so as to manifest that they can continue to try to steal the resemblence of Hijab by enforcing theft of "housing" from persons among whom intermarriage of a black skin genetic and the chinese genetic has occurred.

    The intermarriage of the innuit and other American type genetics with a black skin genetic seems effective but only in the shade Allah can provide; whereas the sequence of the chinese marriage with innuit, then blone blue eyed, first encourages Hijab, and then intermarriage with one of the black skin genetics can occur more safely. I expect that the pattern of indigenous American intermarriage with African might be overly susceptible to the fear of gog and magog and so MUST BE PREVENTED from intermarriage with any of the three different east asian genetics unless the Islamic education process is already fully transpired, and Hijab is immutable. The red/orange hair genetic seems to be the resolution, and is existant among one of the east asian genetic groups, that indigenous to Japan (the hairy Japanese).

    I hope that can help. Bear in mind about the English politicians that quite some many among are already with the red hair genetic: which indeed the gog and magog proponents fear.ffended:

    Alaykomuassaalamu Warahmathallahi Warabarakathahai

    ps Gog and Magog had wanna learn quick smart that if they try to steal the housing of a willing Muslim that they only loose any they ever had to Islam.

    Also to accept that a real Muslim is willing and not their own, they need to know that when they did their own experiments with wudu their evidence was totally askew by cause of the STD transmission they attract to themself by their own belief once they are intermarried with blue eyed blondes. That is how they got the terrible notion that Hijab is hiding the imagery they promote from inside brothels. Not one true believing Muslim, even the shaytan hiding among clerics, would want to live a Human life if it were forced into what many were forced into by gog and magog's abuse of each other so as to cause each other's death. The key to it is realising which one between gog and magog was intending to accept their own death in having caused the other's death. Thereby it becomes evident which of the east asian region's tribal groups is on top, and which is accepting the lower position in meekness. What is the situation in New Zealand between the Maori and Polynesian in terms of who will accept Hijab more readily? It is so difficult to disentangle the mistakes of the past.

    The basic ideology of the melting pot concern is that of needing to regard racial intermarriage only normal with whose Hijab is already self decent.

    And the origin of the problem can be traced in this time, to Japanese organised crime utilising in their system of punishment, enforcing sexual intercourse with persons whom are downs syndrome: which the downs syndrome persons reguard as a great laugh since they only undertake such behaviour themselves in having perceived it a better option to the worst acts which the Japanese organised crime maffia are actualising, and are best never known while not in the fire.


    HOWEVER even though gog and magog give evidence that desire for vanity is an instegative factor in rape and therefore to manifest self decent attire and conceal the appearance of biology: it is also that very many feminists also are very modest in their attire, is it not.

    A group of just marched past me through the peak hour evening traffic with a police escort, I must confess that I poked my tongue out at them and was otherly rude also, but I can since I was marching in those sort of marches as a teenager, so know a thing or two that I would rather not know. The women chant: "yes means yes and no means no, what ever we say and where ever we go", and they have a clear point. A precise point. It is only a pity that so many of them say yes when they mean no. Sado-masichism is rife among the same group of women whom were marching, and all within that exact same gog and magog pattern. If anybody feels any fear in respect of that phenomenon from reading this post then there is one portion of a new post in a new thread in the Islamic Etiquettes forum that I began and which contains a portion of the explaination for the gog and magog phenomena.

    Hijab is a necessity for combatting gog and magog, but if we are greedy in our Hijab then we can unravel ourselves in that battle. I might have joined into the march if I had been wearing a white or black Hijab, but the one I have on is an unfortunate purple and green, (to annoy Muslim clerics; perhaps?) (Insha Allah I will never dare) (Masha Allah this Hijab has saved my life, and SubhanAllah I get the cost in precise measure thankyou any consideration in respect of), but I just could not bear the resemblance of the colours I am in, to the feminist colouration.


    Hijab for Victory!
    Alaykomassaalamu Warahmathallahi Warabarakathahai (abbreviate to Waram is lingo way for indigenous Aussies who got that little of Arabic Thanking whom enabled among the English)
    Last edited by Curaezipirid; 10-27-2006 at 09:29 AM. Reason: a post script and a however there after
    Veil related posts and threads combined

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    Re: Veil related posts and threads combined

    format_quote Originally Posted by David Gould View Post
    Muezzin, does this not demonstrate why we of diverse religions must speak with one voice when we see the criminal acts being perpetrated by our governments. This is not the time for separatism but for joint action, together we are stronger.
    you're wicked !! and i totally agree with you
    Veil related posts and threads combined

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    Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

    format_quote Originally Posted by Kamilah View Post
    I havent read any of your other comments but going off what you have replied to my post I would just like to say....

    why would you talk someone out of carrying out an act of piety? sister dont regard and deed as insignificant, and dont discourage people from doing good...you may be accountable for that on the day of judgement.

    have you ever met practising sisters who observe the full Purdah? Masha'Allah they are preserving themselves they are emulating the Ummahat-Ul-Mumineen, if they the superior creation observed the niqaab then why shoudnt we?

    be wary of what you say sister, Allah is ever watchful.


    Do women who wear the veil get more rewards? if that was the case then we would all wear it..they just choose to wear it because certain personalities of the past wore it..its not a religious obligation and definitely not even a recommendation...the niqaab to me is extreme when worn by ordinary muslim women (not the Mothers of the Faithful may Allah be well pleased with them)
    ..and totally disastrous if worn in the west...babies get scared old people too you wouldnt even be able to carry out your Islamic duty to smile at people...

    Veil related posts and threads combined

    All of them worship out of fear of fire
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    Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

    format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah View Post


    Do women who wear the veil get more rewards? if that was the case then we would all wear it..they just choose to wear it because certain personalities of the past wore it..its not a religious obligation and definitely not even a recommendation...the niqaab to me is extreme when worn by ordinary muslim women (not the Mothers of the Faithful may Allah be well pleased with them)
    ..and totally disastrous if worn in the west...babies get scared old people too you wouldnt even be able to carry out your Islamic duty to smile at people...


    sister....you might not see the importance and wisdom in the Niqaab but there are many Muslimah's around the globe who will beg to differ with you on your above statement.

    if it was a sin...would it have been adhered to by the Ummahatul Mumineen and Muslim women around the world to this very day? chastisty and modesty means a lot to the believing women...and Alhamdulillah in the current islamaphobic climate those that stick to their islamic principles...may Allah(swt) keep them preserved and grant them the Highest place in Jannah...Ameen.

    we are not in anyway obligated to be stripped of our Islam by the kuffar

    we came from Allah and to Allah(swt) we will return.

    this is a really inspirational lecture, please take some time to listen to this sister.

    http://download.yousendit.com/D220548670BDAE0C

    also maybe speak to an Alimah ..she may be able explain things to you better.
    Veil related posts and threads combined

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    Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw

    format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah View Post


    Do women who wear the veil get more rewards? if that was the case then we would all wear it..they just choose to wear it because certain personalities of the past wore it..its not a religious obligation and definitely not even a recommendation...the niqaab to me is extreme when worn by ordinary muslim women (not the Mothers of the Faithful may Allah be well pleased with them)
    ..and totally disastrous if worn in the west...babies get scared old people too you wouldnt even be able to carry out your Islamic duty to smile at people...

    salam

    I think you should be more careful when you post, not to start giving religious rulings etc. I think it is more or less unanimously agreed by scholars that it is more rewarding and better, that a woman wears a veil.

    The scholars differ as to whether it is fard or not. You will find majority of scholars say it is not compulsary to wear a veil

    By the way aren't the prophet's wives regarded as the role models for the women of the world. And since they wore a veil isn't that a good thing that should be practised??
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    Re: 'Remove full veils' urges Straw




    When is it permissible for a woman to uncover her face?

    Question:

    We know that the most correct opinion among the scholars is that women should cover their faces, but there are many situations where women cannot cover their faces. Could you shed more light on this topic?

    Answer:

    Praise be to Allaah.

    The most correct opinion, which is supported by evidence, is that it is obligatory to cover the face, therefore young women are forbidden to uncover their faces in front of non-mahram men in order to avoid any mischief, and they should certainly do so when there is fear of fitnah (temptation).

    On this basis, the fuqaha’ stated that in certain situations, women are permitted to uncover their faces in front of non-mahram men when it is necessary to do so, and it is permitted for those men to look at them, provided that this do not go beyond the bounds of what is necessary, because what is permitted on the grounds of necessity should not be exaggerated.

    These special situations may be summed up as follows:

    I – Proposal of marriage

    It is permitted for a woman to uncover her face and hands in front of a man who wants to propose to her, so that he may see them, without being alone with her and without touching her, because the face gives an indication of ugliness or beauty, and the hands give an indication of whether the body is slender or plump (which in turn gives an impression about fertility).

    Abu’l-Faraj al-Maqdisi said: “The scholars do not differ as to the permissibility of looking at the face… the focal point of beauty, the place one looks at…”

    Many ahaadeeth indicate that it is permissible for a man to look at the woman to whom he is proposing marriage. Among them are the following:

    1.

    Sahl ibn Sa’d (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “A woman came to the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) and said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, I came to give myself to you in marriage.’ So the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) looked at her, he raised his gaze and stared at her, then he lowered his head. When the woman saw that he had not made any decision, she sat down. Then a man from among his Companions stood up and said, ‘O Messenger of Allaah, if you don’t want to marry her, then marry her to me.’ …” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 7/19; Muslim, 4/143; al-Nisaa’i bi Sharh al-Suyooti, 6/113; al-Bayhaqi, 7/84)

    2.

    Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: “I was with the Prophet , and a man came to him and told him that he had married a woman of the Ansaar. The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, ‘Have you looked at her?’ He said, ‘No.’ He said, ‘Go and look at her, for there is something in the eyes of the Ansaar.’” (Reported by Ahmad, 2/286, 299; Muslim, 4/142; al-Nisaa’i, 2/73).

    3.

    Jaabir (may Allaah be pleased with him) reported that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you proposes marriage to a woman, if he can look at that which will encourage him to go ahead and marry her, let him do so.” (Reported by Abu Dawood and al-Haakim. Its isnaad is hasan, and there is corroborating evidence in the hadeeth of Muhammad ibn Muslimah. It was classed as saheeh by Ibn Hibbaan and al-Haakim. It was also reported by Ahmad and Ibn Maajah, and by Ahmad and al-Bazzaar from the hadeeth of Abu Humayd. Fath al-Baari, 9/181).

    Al-Zayla’i said: “It is not permissible for him to touch her face or hands – even if he feels that no desire will be aroused by doing so – because it is haraam and there is no need to do so.” In Durar al-Bihaar it says: “It is not permissible for the qaadi, the witnesses or the groom to touch her, even if they feel that no desire will be aroused by doing so, because there is no need for that.” (Radd al-Muhtaar ‘ala’l-Durr al-Mukhtaar, 5/237).

    Ibn Qudaamah said: “It is not permitted for him to be alone with her because she is still forbidden for him, and only a look is permitted, therefore being alone with her remains haraam, because there is no guarantee that he will not do something haraam if he is alone with her. The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “No man is alone with a [non-mahram] woman but the Shaytaan is the third one present with them.” He should not look at her in a lustful or suspicious manner. Ahmad said, according to a report narrated by Saalih: “He should look at the face, and he should not look in a lustful manner.”

    The man may look at her repeatedly, checking her features, because the desired aim cannot be achieved in any other way.”

    II – Business dealings

    It is permitted for a woman to uncover her face and hands when buying or selling, and it is permitted for the vendor to see her face when he hands over the goods and asks for the money, provided that this will not lead to fitnah – otherwise it is forbidden.

    Ibn Qudaamah said: “If a person deals with a woman when selling or renting, he may look at her face so he knows who she is, and may go back to her when the money is due (a guarantee of the price when the deal is finalized). It was reported that Ahmad said this was makrooh in the case of a young woman, but not in the case of an old woman, and in the case where there is fear of fitnah, or where there is no need for this business deal. But in cases where it is necessary, and there is no wrongful desire, then there is no harm in it.” (al-Mughni, 7/459; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/348 bi Haamish al-Mughni; al-Hidaayah ma’a Takmilat Fath al-Qadeer, 10/24).

    Al-Dasooqi said: “ When testimony is given concerning a woman who wears niqaab (face-veil), she has to remove her niqaab. This applies in the case of marriage and other matters, such as selling, giving gifts, debts, power of attorney, and so on. This is the opinion favoured by our shaykh.” (Haashiyat al-Dasooqi ‘ala’l-Sharh al-Kabeer, 4/194).

    III – Medical treatment

    A woman is permitted to uncover the site of her illness whether it is on her face or elsewhere on her body, for a male doctor to treat her, on the condition that her husband or mahram is present, and if she cannot find a female doctor. It is less serious for her to be seen by a doctor of the same sex, and she should not be seen by a non-Muslim doctor if a Muslim doctor is available. Also, she should not uncover more than the site of the problem.

    It is not permissible for the doctor to look at or touch more than is necessary, because the issue is one of necessity and should not be exaggerated.

    Ibn Qudaamah said: “it is permissible for the doctor to look at whatever is necessary of her body, of her private parts and elsewhere, because there is a need for it to be uncovered.

    It was reported that a boy who had stolen something was brought to ‘Uthmaan. He said, ‘Look at his groin (to see if he had pubic hair, which would indicate whether he had reached the age of puberty [and would therefore be considered to be a responsible adult] or not).’ They did not find any pubic hair, so they did not cut off his hand.” (Al-Mughni, 7/459; Ghidha’ al-Albaab, 1/97).

    Ibn ‘Aabideen said: “He said in al-Jawharah: if the illness is in any part of her body apart from her private part, it is permitted (for the doctor) to look at it in order to treat it, because it is the matter of necessity. If the sickness is in her private part, he (the doctor) should teach a woman how to treat it. If there is nobody who can do that, and they fear that she may die or suffer unbearably, then they should cover all of her body except the site of the sickness, then a man may treat her, but he should avoid looking at her as much as he can, and look only at the site of the sickness that he is treating.” (Radd al-Muhtaar, 5/237. See also, al-Hidaayah al-‘Alaa’iyah, p. 245).

    A similar ruling applies to one who is taking care of a sick person, even if it is someone of the opposite sex, when helping the patient with wudoo’ or istinja’ (washing the private parts after using the toilet). (See Ghidha’ al-Albaab, 1/97).

    Muhammad Fu’aad said: “What indicates that it is permissible for a man to treat a woman – within the restrictions mentioned above – is the report narrated by Imaam al-Bukhaari with his isnaad from al-Rabee’ bint Mu’awwadh, who said: “We used to go out on military campaigns with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). We would bring water to the people and serve them, and bring the dead and wounded back to Madeenah.” (Reported by al-Bukhaari, 6/80, 10/136. Fath al-Baari. A similar report was narrated from Anas by Muslim, 5/196; Abu Dawood, 7/205 ma’a ‘Awn al-Ma’bood; and al-Tirmidhi, 5/301-302, who said this is hasan saheeh)

    Al-Bukhaari included this hadeeth under the chapter heading Baab hal yudaawi’l-rajul ul-mar’ah wa’l-mar’at ul-rajul? (Chapter: can a man treat a woman or a woman a man?). (Fath al-Baari, 10/136).

    Al-Haafiz Ibn Hajar said: “The ruling that a man may treat a woman was derived from this by analogy; he (al-Bukhaari) did not confirm that, because it is possible that this referred to the time before hijaab was made obligatory, or that women used to take care of their husbands or mahrams on military campaigns. The ruling is that it is permissible for women to treat non-mahram men in cases of necessity, with as little looking and touching as possible.” (Fath al-Baari, 10/136)

    IV – Testimony

    It is permissible for a woman to uncover her face when she is giving testimony in court, whether she is a witness in a case or is there to witness a deal, and it is permissible for the qaadi (judge) to look at her in order to know who she is and to protect the rights of all concerned.

    Shaykh al-Dardeer said: “It is not permitted to give testimony against a woman in niqaab until she uncovers her face so that it may be known who she is and what she looks like.” (Al-Sharh al-Kabeer li’l- Shaykh al-Dardeer, 4/194)

    Ibn Qudaamah said: “The witness may look at the face of the woman against whom he is testifying so that his testimony will speak about her in specific terms. Ahmad said: ‘He cannot testify against a woman unless he knows who she is.’” (Al-Mughni, 7/459; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/348, bi haamish al-Mughni; al-Hidaayah ma’a Takmilat Fath al-Qadeer, 10/26).

    V – In court cases

    It is permissible for a woman to uncover her face in front of a qaadi (judge) who is to rule either in her favour or against her, and in this situation he may look at her face in order to know who she is and for the sake of protecting people’s rights.

    The same rules that apply to giving testimony or bearing witness also apply in court cases, because they serve the same purpose. (See Al-Durar al-Mukhtaar, 5/237; Al-Hadiyah al-‘Alaa’iyah, p. 244; Al-Hadiyah ma’a Takmilat Fath al-Qadeer, 10/26).

    VI – In front of mature boys who feel no physical desire

    It is permissible – according to one of the two reports – for a woman to show in front of a mature boy who feels no physical desire what she shows in front of her mahrams, because he has no interest in women, and it is permissible for him to see all that.

    Shaykh Abu’l-Faraj al-Maqdisi said: “The mature boy who feels no physical desire may see parts of a woman’s body above the navel and below the knee, according to one of the two reports, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meanings): ‘… there is no sin on you or on them to move about, - attending (helping) you each other…’ [al-Noor 24:58] and ‘And when the children among you come to puberty, then let them (also) ask for permission, as those senior to them (in age)…’ [al-Noor 24:59]. This indicates that there is a differentiation between those who have reached puberty and those who have not.”

    Abu ‘Abd-Allaah said: “Abu Tayyibah did cupping for the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) when he was a boy.”

    It was also reported that he said: “He is like the ajnabi (stranger, i.e., non-mahram), because he is like one who has reached puberty in the matter of physical desires, and this means that hijaab is required and it is forbidden to look. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘… small children who have no sense of the shame of sex…’ [al-Noor 24:31]. As for small boys who are not mature, it is not necessary to cover in front of them at all.” (Al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/349. See also Al-Mughni, 7/458 and Ghada’ al-Albaab, 1/97).

    VII – The man who has no desire

    It is permissible for a woman to show in front of a man who has no desire what she can show in front of her mahrams, because he has no interest in women, and he is allowed to see all of that. Ibn Qudaamah said: “Whoever no longer feels any desire, because of old age, impotence or incurable illness, or because he is a eunuch, … or a mukhannath (the effeminate man or a man who has female hormones) who feels no desire, the ruling that applies to such a man is the same as the ruling that applies to mahrams regarding looking at women, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): ‘… or old male servants who lack vigour…’ [al-Noor 24:31], i.e., those who feel no desire for women.” Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “This is the one of whom women do not feel shy.” He also said: “This is the mukhannath who is impotent (i.e., cannot have an erection).”

    It was reported that Mujaahid and Qutaadah said: “This is the one who has no interest in women, but if he is a mukhannath who feels desire and knows about women, then the rules that apply to others apply also to him, because ‘Aa’ishah said: ‘A mukhannath entered upon the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and they used to think that he was a man who felt no physical desires, but the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) entered upon us when this man was describing a woman and saying ‘When she comes in, she comes on four, and when she goes out, she goes on eight.’ The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: ‘Do I not see that this man knows who is here? This one should never enter upon you.’ And he was kept away after that.” (Reported by Abu Dawood and others).

    Ibn ‘Abd al-Barr said: “The mukhannath is not only the one who is known to be promiscuous. The mukhannath is the one who looks so much like a woman physically that he resembles women in his softness, speech, appearance, accent and thinking. If he is like this, he would have no desire for women and he would not notice anything about them. This is one of those who have no interest in women who were permitted to enter upon women. Do you not see that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) did not prevent that mukhannath from entering upon his wives at first, but when he heard him describing the daughter of Ghaylaan and realized that he knew about women, he commanded that he should be kept away.” (Al-Mughni, 7/463; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/347-348).

    IX – Old women who are past marriageable age

    Old women who are past marriageable age may uncover their faces and what usually appears in front of non-mahram men, but it is still better for them to remain covered.

    Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “And as for women past child-bearing who do not expect wedlock, it is no sin on them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show their adornment. But to refrain (i.e., not to discard their outer clothing) is better for them…” [al-Noor 24:60]. Ibn Qudaamah said: “In the case of old women who are past marriageable age, there is nothing wrong if they show what ordinarily appears, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning), ‘And as for women past child-bearing who do not expect wedlock…’ [al-Noor 24:60].” Ibn ‘Abbaas said concerning the aayahs (interpretation of the meanings), “Tell the believing men to lower their gaze…” [al-Noor 24:30] and “Tell the believing women to lower their gaze…” [al-Noor 24:31]: “Old women who no longer expect to get married were exempted from this. The same exemption also applied to women who are deformed and are not desirable.” (Al-Mughni, 7/463; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/347-348).

    X – Uncovering the face in front of kaafir women

    The scholars have differed concerning how a Muslim woman should appear in front of kaafir women.

    Ibn Qudaamah said: “The ruling concerning women dealing with women is the same as that concerning men dealing with men. There is no difference between Muslims, and no difference between a Muslim woman and a dhimmi (non-Muslim living under Muslim rule) woman, just as there is no difference between two Muslim men or between a Muslim man and a dhimmi man when it comes to seeing. Ahmad said: ‘Some people think that she should not take off her head covering in front of a Jewish or Christian woman. However, I think that she (a Jewish or Christian woman) should not see the private part (of a Muslim woman), or attend her when she gives birth (i.e., she should not be her midwife, because she will look at the most private part of her body when she gives birth – except in cases of necessity, as discussed above).’”

    Another opinion was reported from Ahmad, according to which a Muslim woman should not remove her niqaab in front of a dhimmi woman, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… or their women …” [al-Noor 24:31]. But the first opinion is more correct, because kaafir women, Jewish and others, used to enter upon the wives of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and they did not wear hijaab in front of them nor were they commanded to do so. ‘Aa’ishah said that a Jewish woman used to come and talk to her, saying “May Allaah save you from the punishment of the grave,” and she [‘Aa’ishah] asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him)… Asma’ said, “My mother came to me, and she had no desire to become Muslim. I asked the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), ‘Should I uphold the ties of kinship with her?’ and he said, ‘Yes.’”

    Moreover, hijaab between men and women serves a purpose that is not an issue in the case of a Muslim woman and a dhimmi woman, just as it is not an issue in the case of a Muslim man and a dhimmi man. Hijaab is obligatory when there is a text stating that it is so or the obligation may be understood by analogy; in the case of a Muslim woman and a non-Muslim woman, there is neither text nor analogy.

    The aayah “… or their women …” [al-Noor 24:31] could refer to all women. (Al-Mughni, 7/464; al-Sharh al-Kabeer ‘ala Matan al-Muqni’, 7/351 bi haamish al-Mughni).

    Ibn al-‘Arabi al-Maaliki said: “The correct view, in my opinion, is that this permissible in the case of all women, and that it appears with the pronoun ( -hinna = their) to match the rest of the aayah. This is the aayah of pronouns, where the pronoun -hinna appears twenty-five times; there is nothing else like it in the Qur’aan. So this word matches the others.” (Ahkaam al-Qur’aan, 3/326).

    Al-Aloosi said: “Al-Fakhr al-Raazi suggested that the dhimmi woman is like the Muslim woman, and he said: “The correct opinion is that she (the dhimmi woman) is like the Muslim woman, and ‘their women’ means all women. The opinion of the salaf (early generations of Islam) should be understood on the basis that (covering in front of non-Muslim women) is preferable, but it is not obligatory.” Then he said: “This view is easier for people today, for Muslim woman can hardly observe hijaab in front of dhimmi women.” (Tafseer al-Aloosi, 19/143).

    Muhammad Fu’aad said: “If this opinion was easier in their time, then no doubt it is more appropriate and easier in our own time, especially for those women who, because of circumstances beyond their control, find that they have to live in non-Muslim countries, where they mix with non-Muslim women and their lives are interwoven with theirs, to the extent that observing hijaab in front of them is fraught with difficulties. Truly, to Allaah we belong, and truly, to Him we shall return.”

    XI – Hajj and ‘Umrah


    Women must uncover their faces and hands when they enter ihraam for Hajj or ‘Umrah. At this time, they are forbidden to wear niqaab and gloves, because the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The woman who is in ihraam must not wear niqaab or gloves.”

    If a woman needs to cover her face because men are passing close by her, or she is beautiful and is sure that men are looking at her, she should drop a part of head covering over her face, because of the hadeeth of ‘Aa’ishah in which she said, “Riders were passing by us, and we were in ihraam with the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), so when they came near, each of us would lower her jilbaab over her face, and when they went away we would uncover our faces again.”

    Al-Juzayri said, reporting from them: “A woman may cover her face for a necessary reason, such as non-mahram men passing close by her, and the fact that (the cloth) will touch her face does not matter. This is to make it easy and alleviate hardship.” (Al-Fiqh ‘ala’l-Madhaahib al-Arba’ah, 1/645).

    These are situations in which it is acceptable for a woman to uncover her face and hands, explained in detail by the fuqaha’ and scholars. But there is one other situation which deserves our attention, and that is when a Muslim woman is forced to uncover her face – what is the ruling in this case?

    XII – Compulsion


    Some oppressive regimes have instituted harsh laws which go against the religion of Islam and rebel against Allaah and His Messenger. These laws prevent Muslim women from wearing proper hijaab, and some of them even remove their niqaab by force and subject them to the worst type of oppression and persecution.

    Women who wear niqaab have been subjected to harassment in certain European countries, where they have been subjected to harm, and Islam and the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) have been slandered.

    Therefore, when a woman is certain that she is likely to be subjected to unbearable harassment, she is permitted to uncover her face. It is better to follow a scholarly opinion which is less correct than to expose herself to trouble at the hands of evil men.

    If a woman is permitted to uncover her face and hands in the situations described above, which do not involve force or harassment, then surely it is more likely that she is permitted to uncover them when she is faced with a threat to herself and her religion, especially when her niqaab may expose her to tormentors who may pull the hijaab from her head or subject her to worse abuse. In cases of necessity, things that are ordinarily forbidden are permitted, within the limits of what is strictly necessary, as the scholars have stated, but this should not lead one to take the matter of covering the face lightly. Each woman must evaluate the situation in which she is living and learn from her own experience and that of others, so that she will be sure of what is a case of real necessity, as opposed to her own whims and weaknesses.

    Although women are permitted to uncover their faces and hands in the exceptional situations described above, they are not permitted to wear make-up and visible jewellery if they do so. It is forbidden for them to display these things in front of non-mahram men, according to all the fuqaha’, because Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “… and not to show off their adornment…” [al-Noor 24:31], and because there is no need to do so. (Hijaab al-Muslimah bayna Intihaal wa Ta’weel al-Jaahileen, p. 239).

    We ask Allaah to reform the Muslims. May Allaah bless our Prophet Muhammad.

    Hijaab al-Muslimah bayna Intihaal wa Ta’weel al-Jaahileen, p. 239

    Source
    Also see:

    Conditions of Women's Niqab


    33: 36. It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, He is indeed on a clearly wrong path.


    24: 51. The answer of the believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, In order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: They say, "We Hear and we obey": it is such As these that will attain felicity.

    52. It is such As obey Allah and His Messenger, and fear Allah and do right, that will win (in the end),



    Veil related posts and threads combined

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  11. #208
    Ibn Abi Ahmed's Avatar Full Member
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    Re: Veil related posts and threads combined



    format_quote Originally Posted by scentsofjannah View Post

    Do women who wear the veil get more rewards?
    Why wouldnt they when they are following those who were righteous of those that came before them?! Why wouldnt they when they are doing something for the sake of Allah?! Why wouldnt they when they are following a verse of the Quran?!

    33: 59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.


    The correct opinion is in my above post.

    if that was the case then we would all wear it..they just choose to wear it because certain personalities of the past wore it..its not a religious obligation and definitely not even a recommendation...
    You are mis-informed. The verse above is clear on the point that ALL muslim women are to wear the body veil not only the Mothers of the Believers.

    the niqaab to me is extreme when worn by ordinary muslim women (not the Mothers of the Faithful may Allah be well pleased with them)
    That is your opinion and the Islamic ruling is clear on the point of the body veil. This is Allah and His Messenger's decision.

    33: 36. It is not fitting for a believer, man or woman, when a matter has been decided by Allah and His Messenger to have any option about their decision: if any one disobeys Allah and His Messenger, He is indeed on a clearly wrong path.

    24: 51. The answer of the believers, when summoned to Allah and His Messenger, In order that He may judge between them, is no other than this: They say, "We Hear and we obey": it is such As these that will attain felicity.

    52. It is such As obey Allah and His Messenger, and fear Allah and do right, that will win (in the end),



    ..and totally disastrous if worn in the west...babies get scared old people too you wouldnt even be able to carry out your Islamic duty to smile at people...
    Since when was it allowed in Islam that sisters (or brothers) can smile at random "people" on the street?! Men (or women for the brothers) that are their non-mahrams?! What's next, winking at them? Dont you know that there are people in whose hearts is a disease? Why do you think the body veil is Wajib?!

    33: 59. O Prophet! Tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to draw their cloaks (veils) all over their bodies (i.e.screen themselves completely except the eyes or one eye to see the way). That will be better, that they should be known (as free respectable women) so as not to be annoyed. And Allah is Ever Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

    Smiling is when you are among the same gender. Why does Allah tell us to lower our gaze if we were to do it to the opposite gender?!

    This is no more than an ideological attack from the West to strip our sisters of their morality and turn them into the immoral, shameless and lewd women of the West and the sad part is that some sisters are falling into this trap. May Allah protect us from this!

    Last edited by Ibn Abi Ahmed; 10-27-2006 at 09:26 PM.
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  12. #209
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    Re: Veil related posts and threads combined

    I am thinking about Sheik Hilali's remarks about a woman without a veil being like uncovered meat to a cat.

    I reckon that therein he has identified the reality. As much as no cat could deny the temptation, neither can the meat get up and cover it self. Who left the meat uncovered?

    Surely, since men know what is and is not tempting to other men, better than a woman can know, Men are whom must cover her.

    There is no point for a man in blaming women for being uncovered if he is not working towards causing that his own gaze falls only on covered women.

    On women's part that which is the real wrong is to expose the body in vulnerablity so as to tempt sexual assault, or even gaze with mind to, but while in fact hoping that he will so assault her, and only so that she can blame him.

    When all men have these facts straight in their minds then there might be no further need for full veil, and cover might preferably be accorded by weather than by people. That is, once men are able to look at any uncovered woman, and see only either her self acknowledged shame, or that she is only trying to entrap him into letting her hate him, then those women whom tempt look ugly enough that no man could fall to.

    Meanwhile us sisters are better off in veil as Sheik Hilali pointed out.
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