The Cordoba Mosque, now a Unesco world heritage site, was turned into a Catholic cathedral in the 13th century after the southern Spanish city, once the capital of Moorish Spain, was taken from the Muslims by the Christians in the war to oust the Moors from the Iberian peninsula and re-establish Christianity in Spain.
The mosque was built when Spain was the Moorish territory of Al-Andalus, and was promoted as the third holiest Islamic site after the Ka’aba in the Saudi Arabian holy city of Mecca, and the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem.
The fabulous mosque pays tribute to the architectural and artistic achievements of Muslim Spain, which is also regarded as a beacon of science and scholarship in 10th-century Europe.
Cordoba residents still call the building “mezquita" (mosque), though it has been used as a Catholic cathedral since the city was conquered by King Ferdinand III.
Now, the building has taken the shape of Catholic churches, with choir stall and chapels built inside it, mingling with Islamic features such as the prayer niche, or the mihrab.
Spain's Islamic Board, which represents a community of some 800,000 in a traditional Catholic country of 44 million, challenges the Catholic Church’s exclusive use of the building, arguing that the site is a heritage of Arab-Berber-Spanish Moors, who ruled large parts of Spain for some 800 years and for whom emir Abd ar-Rahman I built the mosque in the 8th century.
Mansur Escudero, a Muslim convert who heads Spain's Islamic Board, recently prayed in front of the mosque to assert Muslims' right to use it for prayer.
The board has asked Pope Benedict XVI in a letter to turn the mosque into an ecumenical temple where believers of all faiths could worship, arguing that such a move could "awake the conscience" of Christians and Muslims and help bury past confrontations.
"What we wanted was not to take over that holy place, but to create in it, together with you and other faiths, an ecumenical space unique in the world which would have been of great significance in bringing peace to humanity," the letter said.
The board also sent a similar letter to Prime Minister Jose Luis Rodriguez Zapatero.
But the Roman Catholic bishop of Cordoba rejected the Muslims’ appeal, claiming that the joint use of places of worships would generate confusion amongst the faithful.
Muslim leaders disagree with Bishop Juan Jose Asenjo’s view.
The mosque, a building with an "enormous symbolic power," could show the way for a "universal spirituality," Audalla Conget, secretary of the Islamic Board, told the Deutsche Presse-Agentur dpa in an interview.
"Spain could be the key that opens the door to peace," he says, recalling the Moorish period when Christians, Muslims and Jews lived in relative harmony.
The Vatican has rejected earlier petitions by Muslims to pray at the Cordoba mosque, but Conget hoped that Pope Benedict XVI would have a more favorable attitude.
The Cordoba bishop's negative answer contradicts with the "interesting gestures" by the Pope, such as praying at an Istanbul mosque, Conget said.
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
Are you saying there are no Mosques built on a site that was home to a Jewish or Christian site? Since we know there are, would you concede to allowing other religions pray at your sites which were built on the former sites of others?
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
Are you saying there are no Mosques built on a site that was home to a Jewish or Christian site? Since we know there are, would you concede to allowing other religions pray at your sites which were built on the former sites of others?
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) allowed the Christians of Najraan to pray in his mosque, facing towards their “qiblah” (direction of prayer).
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) allowed the Christians of Najraan to pray in his mosque, facing towards their “qiblah” (direction of prayer).
End quote from Ahkaam Ahl al-Dhimmah, 2/819-823.
Extracted from IslamQA
Peace.
Did he allow Jews that same right? And if so, why do Muslims not follow the lead of their prophet now and let other religions pray at the places that mosques are built on now but were once shuls, or churches.
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
What I dont understand is why do these people think they have a right to something that hasnt been theirs for some 700 years? I mean really this building has been a cathedral for the better part of a millenium and these people are still wanting to have some right to it. I personally think it is just another way to make Muslims feel like they are being persecuted. I am not trying to offend anyone, although i am sure i will, but the more i read and the more i see on the news the more i think islam is a religion for crybabies and trouble starters . Every week it is something else "Oh, someone is taking our land" or "Oh that was our mosque 700 years ago" or "Lets go throw a violent protest because some idiot drew pictures of our prophet". It seems to me Muslims are always just looking for a way to start something with someone else, whether it be some crazy conspiracy theory (that i read at least once on this site everyday) or it be someone offended them or didnt give what they want. Then it is everyone elses fault, how about take a look at yourself.
My point is everything is not yours and not everyone cares about what you think is sacred or even what is against your beliefs and religion. This is something that Muslims and Islam must deal with in order to live in society today. Do you really think Allah cares where you pray? Probably not, he is probably just happy you pray at all. Stop making a big deal out of everything and just be happy with what you got, it isnt like this is where you will spend the rest of eternity anyways, so what do you care about land or buildings. Really you will only exist for a blink of an eye.
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
The Muslims of Turkey turned the Sofia Mosque in Istanbul (formally Constantinople), which used to be a church before being converted into a Mosque, into a Museum. Muslims took into consideration the feelings of Christians. It seems the Spanish Christians in this case arent willing to consider the feelings of Muslims. But Im not certain know how significant the cathedral is for Christians and Muslims.
Last edited by Goku; 01-03-2007 at 03:50 PM.
"Were they created by nothing, or were they themselves the creators?
Or did they create the heavens and the earth?
Nay, they have no firm belief.”
[Holy Qur'an: 52:35-36]
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
format_quote Originally Posted by rav
Did he allow Jews that same right? And if so, why do Muslims not follow the lead of their prophet now and let other religions pray at the places that mosques are built on now but were once shuls, or churches.
He may have, i don't know of much ahadith so i can't say. Maybe you could do a search on that.
Anyway, at the bottom of the article it also mentions:
The Cordoba bishop's negative answer contradicts with the "interesting gestures" by the Pope, such as praying at an Istanbul mosque, Conget said.
So the muslims may have allowed the pope to pray in the istanbul masjid. And anyway, even if they don't let him - if the prophet (peace be upon him) allowed it, then why should we compare todays muslims to the prophet himself? We follow his example.
MTAFFI. We don't cry to you, and we don't complain to the disbelievers. We complain to Allaah, the Lord of the worlds. Allaah has power over all things, and because we've spent too much time straying away from the religion of Allaah, He has placed us in this position of humiliation so that we may turn back to Him. What better time is there to turn back to Allaah except at times of hardship?
Have you actually checked up on the rulings regarding the issues such as the violent protests? Have you found any trustworthy scholar saying that we should take back the masjid back by force? We will gain them back by the will of Allaah, and if you just going to follow what the media tells you, then you have the right to do that, but if you've ever seen an event in real life, then you'll know that the media isn't always telling the truth.
In the end, we will return back to Allaah and be judged on all that we did.
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
MTAFFI. We don't cry to you, and we don't complain to the disbelievers. We complain to Allaah, the Lord of the worlds. Allaah has power over all things, and because we've spent too much time straying away from the religion of Allaah, He has placed us in this position of humiliation so that we may turn back to Him. What better time is there to turn back to Allaah except at times of hardship?
To this I say if you are crying and complaining to Allah then why does the world hear about it on a daily basis? You dont hear Christians talking about their injustices or creating controversy or 700 year old buildings that do not belong to them.
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Have you actually checked up on the rulings regarding the issues such as the violent protests? Have you found any trustworthy scholar saying that we should take back the masjid back by force?
I have had no need to check on the violent protests anymore, however when that was going on there was a death toll, so as far as I am concerned the people involved for simple minded barbarians who cannot control themselves. Those protests carried on for days, there were deaths and destruction.
I never said anyone would take it back with force, I simply said they should be asking for it back at all.
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
We will gain them back by the will of Allaah, and if you just going to follow what the media tells you, then you have the right to do that, but if you've ever seen an event in real life, then you'll know that the media isn't always telling the truth.
I agree with this and i do not believe everything the media tells me but I also do not believe that everything is fabricated and that there is some man behind it shaping the way I view things. I have been a lot of places in this world and seen a lot of people and cultures. I have never been in the middle of a violent protest but to me seeing it on the news is just as good. Watching thousands of people chant "Death to America" is proof enough for me to believe that when the media shows certain Muslims shooting and throwing things at US embassies, it probably isnt just made up.
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
In the end, we will return back to Allaah and be judged on all that we did.
Peace.
I agree
PEACE
"War does not determine who is right - only who is left."
- Bertrand Russell
"He who fears being conquered is sure of defeat." - Napoleon Bonaparte
"There is nothing so likely to produce peace as to be well prepared to meet the
enemy." - George Washington
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
To this I say if you are crying and complaining to Allah then why does the world hear about it on a daily basis? You dont hear Christians talking about their injustices or creating controversy or 700 year old buildings that do not belong to them.
Maybe because their not labelled christians? Maybe their just labelled under another title? Whereas when muslims do something, its; MUSLIM TERRORIST? or ISLAMIC EXTREMISTS?
I have had no need to check on the violent protests anymore, however when that was going on there was a death toll, so as far as I am concerned the people involved for simple minded barbarians who cannot control themselves. Those protests carried on for days, there were deaths and destruction.
I asked if any trustworthy scholars agreed to the violence?
I never said anyone would take it back with force, I simply said they should be asking for it back at all.
They have the right to ask.
I agree with this and i do not believe everything the media tells me but I also do not believe that everything is fabricated and that there is some man behind it shaping the way I view things. I have been a lot of places in this world and seen a lot of people and cultures. I have never been in the middle of a violent protest but to me seeing it on the news is just as good. Watching thousands of people chant "Death to America" is proof enough for me to believe that when the media shows certain Muslims shooting and throwing things at US embassies, it probably isnt just made up.
Yeah, but the media is owned by a certain authority who may allow some things to be shown, highlighted more than others etc. I believe that, and i see alot of propaganda against our faith.
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
MTAFFI we don't wake up one morning and say "hey lets cause problems, lets chant the destruction of a country" Muslims are being attacked in every way possible, verbally, mentally, and physically. Its of Human nature in which we retaliate to these attacks. When we do attack you say we are terrorist. Now what about Israel, Britain, and USA. "Oh no there strong countries so they can't be terrorists but these less stronger countries in the Muslim world are terrorists because they seem to be attacking us". How many regular Muslims walk down the streets and are chanted at "death to Islam". Imagine some people drew Jesus naked with these women and it was made a whole joke (not is the Muslim world because we believe in him and you guys believe his god). I'm pretty sure you would be pissed. But wait This insult comes at a time in which you are being attacked everyday. People especially like you don't see the whole picture, you take a glimpse and then come to your conclusion, when you say were whining, find why are they. Muslims have given other religions much tolerance until they came barging in on our territory. Now doesn't seem logical were fighting you because your on our land . Now doesn't seem reasonable that a country leaves their homeland and travels half-way across the world to take a countries oil. Then they blame the reason on some other thing. Does it seem okay to for one country to give many countries independence except one which they keep tormenting. Also a "new" and "illegal" country by let alone religion by there people established there state on while they take water and attack the people whom they took it from with the help of larger countries. I don't know where your thinking but When we can't fight back with strong might and the UN is reluctant to do anything. We didnt they sanction these countries yet they sanction another country who want to protect itself. Does seem proper and normal, I say Muslims are facing a humanitarian crisis. People want them out of existence ,
out of their land, out of there culture, and religion. Yet you say we always want to fight. Now does that comment seem fair I don't think so
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
format_quote Originally Posted by Goku
The Muslims of Turkey turned the Sofia Mosque in Istanbul (formally Constantinople), which used to be a church before being converted into a Mosque, into a Museum. Muslims took into consideration the feelings of Christians. It seems the Spanish Christians in this case arent willing to consider the feelings of Muslims. But Im not certain know how significant the cathedral is for Christians and Muslims.
hola Goku,
the muslims in Turkey did not convert their mosque into a museum for the sake of Christians... they did it because it represented to them an old theocratic regime they wanted to escape... the Turks are very negative toward Christians.
but this issue with the Cathedral of Cordoba is not about peoples feelings... we cannot deconsecrate a Cathedral for an impious purpose... which is what Muslims are requesting. it is a Cathedral... not a mosque, i am very frightened about the aggressive talk of a "return" of an "al andalus" or "the mosque" of Cordoba... spanish people remember muslim rule with very mixed feelings... muslims were very oppressive rulers but very sophistocated and brought good things to the spaniards... and i certainly would not exist without them, but the return of an "al andalus" just like the first time is not a welcome thing to spaniards and so it means invasion, and that scares me very much...
it is time muslims accept the world they live in... there is no mosque of cordoba, there is no al andalus... please do not push this any further.
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
He may have, i don't know of much ahadith so i can't say. Maybe you could do a search on that.
Anyway, at the bottom of the article it also mentions:
So the muslims may have allowed the pope to pray in the istanbul masjid. And anyway, even if they don't let him - if the prophet (peace be upon him) allowed it, then why should we compare todays muslims to the prophet himself? We follow his example.
hola Fi_Sabilillah,
please do not misinterpret the Holy Fathers actions in the mosque... he was not praying, if that were so you would have seen him cross himself... it was a moment of meditation.
Dios te bendiga
...are these threads necessary? they are redundant and lead to a lot of islamic pride & pomp which is kind of scaring me...
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
Hi jayda.
It's a double sided argument, you as a christian may say that the muslim leaders were oppressive, yet it was the christians who drove out the muslims from al andalus even though it was their land. However, it was due to our own faults that Allaah placed it in the hands of someone else.
One of the reasons why they aren't allowing the muslims to pray in this masjid is due to the fact that it is a matter of pride for the christians, and i don't blame them for that.
It depends on which side of the story you see, obviously the article you linked me to was by a spanish christian, so it would be biased. So i think this arguing is pointless.
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
yet it was the christians who drove out the muslims from al andalus even though it was their land. However, it was due to our own faults that Allaah placed it in the hands of someone else.
Wait, I just did a double take. How was it your land?
However, In the 8th century, nearly all the Iberian peninsula was quickly conquered (I believe at that time it was under Catholic control) (711–718), by mainly Berber Muslims (see Moors), who had crossed over from North Africa. Of course I am sure the Jewish people in general did not mind because the Muslims did not convert, kill, and rape Jews like the previous Christian rulers did, and Jews were able to think their minds and pray to G-d without being persecuted by Christians during Islamic rule.
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Hi jayda.
It's a double sided argument, you as a christian may say that the muslim leaders were oppressive, yet it was the christians who drove out the muslims from al andalus even though it was their land. However, it was due to our own faults that Allaah placed it in the hands of someone else.
no... the muslims came from africa to conquer spain, they were not originally from there. the muslim presence was the result of a very brutal war... not God... the anger and brutality of the reconquista was the result of what happened because of what the moors did to spanish people...
One of the reasons why they aren't allowing the muslims to pray in this masjid is due to the fact that it is a matter of pride for the christians, and i don't blame them for that.
no this is not true... it is canon law... churches may not be deconsecrated for an impious purpose unless it is beyond repair...
It depends on which side of the story you see, obviously the article you linked me to was by a spanish christian, so it would be biased. So i think this arguing is pointless.
why did you think it was written by a spanish person... or even a christian? the article was not about anything that was related to spain...
format_quote Originally Posted by Fi_Sabilillah
Peace.
i am afraid of the way you talk... it is like you do not believe muslim oppression can ever be a bad thing, and you talk about al andalus like it is some kind of religious duty... why do you say peace when you say things like this...
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
the anger and brutality of the reconquista was the result of what happened because of what the moors did to spanish people...
Do you have a link or some kind of statement for this?
Pray:
Our Lord! we have heard the call of one calling (Us) to Faith, 'Believe ye in the Lord,' and we have believed. Our Lord! Forgive us our sins, blot out from us our iniquities, and take to Thyself our souls in the company of the righteous.
3:193
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
If I was in power I would give the Christians the Haiga Sophia in Istanbul in exchange for this Masjid in Spain. It was built as a Masjid, and that is what it should be. The authorities should at least allow Muslims to pray there, given it's Islamic significance.
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
format_quote Originally Posted by Erundur
Do you have a link or some kind of statement for this?
no it is just something self evident... the anger spanish people felt toward the muslims because of what they did resulted in terrible mistreatment when spain returned to the spanish again... the jews were mistreated too since they were viewed as collaborators...
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
If I was in power I would give the Christians the Haiga Sophia in Istanbul in exchange for this Masjid in Spain. It was built as a Masjid, and that is what it should be. The authorities should at least allow Muslims to pray there, given it's Islamic significance.
hola Fishman,
i do not think these things are meant to be traded like cards... the hagia sophia belongs to the turks... they conquered istanbul so it is theirs... maybe someday if they wish they may turn it into a church again but i do not believe they ever will...
the Cathedral of Cordoba belongs to the Church... it belongs to the Catholic Church and is consecrated for Catholic worship... this is the way the world is... we cant live in the 13th century...
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and trouble starters
. Every week it is something else "Oh, someone is taking our land" or "Oh that was our mosque 700 years ago" or "Lets go throw a violent protest because some idiot drew pictures of our prophet". It seems to me Muslims are always just looking for a way to start something with someone else, whether it be some crazy conspiracy theory (that i read at least once on this site everyday) or it be someone offended them or didnt give what they want. Then it is everyone elses fault, how about take a look at yourself.
Probably not, he is probably just happy you pray at all. Stop making a big deal out of everything and just be happy with what you got, it isnt like this is where you will spend the rest of eternity anyways, so what do you care about land or buildings. Really you will only exist for a blink of an eye.
I don't think so
Re: Muslims challenge Christians’ exclusive use of Cordoba Mosque
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