mcb and joining british armed forces?

It was Inayat Bunglawala that said it was ok - dont know if thats still their position

I have heard that myself. MPAC also say it is acceptable and that muslims should. Just strange how muslims can urge other muslims to fight alongside the enemies of our muajihdeen brothers and sisters, but fail to comment on or encourage joing the mujahideen. I would love to see them answer the following 2 questions - Do you encourage muslims to join the British Army?
Do you encourage muslims to take part in jihad in afghanistan and so on? Tricky hey?

Just strange how muslims can urge other muslims to fight alongside the enemies of our muajihdeen brothers and sisters

An obvious assumption that all the muajihdeen are all good guys.
Or does it even matter?

This has nothing to do with the ethics of living in the West. We live in the West but does that mean we have to go out and drink? My argument is that how can muslims join the British Army, when they are engaged in a war against our Muslim brothers and Sisters? As for the taxes, I 100% see where you are coming from, and it is something which has been bothering me for some time. I think that if this is the case, depending on my imaan and how I conclude these taxes are helping kill my muslim brothers and sisters, I should to hijra to a land, where the wealth is not being largely used to kill innocent people. Regardless if they are muslims or non muslims. This is my opinion anyway.

Now and I do not encourage the muslims to join the "bad guys"/those that blow up innocent people. Yes it does matter. It matters because you would be contraditcing yourslef if you were to urge muslims not to fight in the British Armed Forces because they kill innocent people and their agenda is politcally motivated and than you go do the exact same thing with some of the extreme elements of the mujahideen. I urge them to join that on which their is truthood and that in which Allahs pleasure is. And out of the two, I can not see how a muslim would encourage the former. How can muslims urge other muslims to join and take part in illegal wars and exhbititions when these go against the basic ethics and teachings of Islam. My point is rather aimed towards the muslim representatives, who when asked the question about jihad, say it is not important and that there are other channels of jihad, and I can agree with that, but than to say it is acceptbale to join the British Armed Forces sounds pathtics. Their argument starts of that muslims shold not engage in physical jihad, because of our enviornemnt and circumstances, but on the same basis, make it acceptable to join the Britsih Army in physical exhbitions aimed at muslims and muslim land seem somewhat contraditcing.

And about it being treason, to be honest I dont think that muslims take that as it means. Yes we respect the law of the land, and we are obliged to stick by its ruling, but in a way which does not contradict the Law of Allah. As the law of Allah takes predecense. Now you may say "Go to somewhere where you are not refined to the law of the land"! Fair point. My reason, is that we as muslims living here in the west have many other channels of jihad which we can be involved in - dialogue with other religions, media, political and so forth, so what one can do in the east another can do in the west. What one can do in the west another can do in the east. Jihad is not just based on a miitary form, but on all forms from self purification to educating the masses. From charity to setting up anti-war coalitions.

What if there were a draft?

How about the police force? It seems to me Muslims on the police force might be a moderating influence against claims of bias.

What if a Muslim were a police officer and he confronted a fellow Muslim with a backpack full of explosives on a train? Does he need to wait for an opinion from some cleric in Saudi Arabia before he shoots him?

The average Brit might be tempted to ask..."what side are you on, mate?"

But we have seen thats not acceptable, when some British Somalis were arrested. Yes you may say they were fighting against the government, but at that time the ICU was in charge of Somalia. In this case they were not fighting against THEIR COUNTRY OF CITIZENSHIP.

Its not about whos side I am on, because frankly if it came down to defending my country over defending the opressed and those against whom injustice is being done, regardless of whether they are muslim or non-muslim I will always defend the latter. Its not about where your passport lies, but rather where your morals and heart lies. And to be clear my heart lies with the opressed and those on whom illegal wars are declared upon, on those whom on a regular basis helicopter gunships rain down their terror, on whom on a regular basis bombs are detonated, on whom on a regular basis their wealth is plundered, on whom on a regular basis the world turns a blind eye to and on whom on a regular basis are given the label terrorist when they try to fight back. It just seems to be a bizzare coinsident that most of the above if not all are muslims.

And to be clear, so people do not twist my words, I am talking about those that fight with morals and in accordance to the rules of war. Not those that fight against their own population, or target innocent civilians whether here or there. Whether in the East or the West.

I dont hate this country, infact I like it. I like most if not all the people in the UK. I like in most cases its sense of equality, or at least thats how it use to be. I like the fact that people of all faiths can get gone, or at least try to until the media tries to say otherwise. I like the fact that people of all colours and creeds are allowed to worship freely, or at least in some cases, and I also like the fact that I am not frowned upon by the decent civcilsied individuals in the society I live in.

However I hate the fact that the media plays a bigger role than the government. I hate the fact that the government has manipulated this country and turned countrt men against country men. I hate the fact that the media can give air space to extremist of both ends but fail to give the decent people a chance. I hate the fact that this government can ignore the voices of millions and millions of its own citiznes, of all colours and creeds, but still go and take the people of this country into an ILLEGAL WAR based on LIES and further put this country and its people in harms way.

But hey, I am still Britsh, may not proud to be, due to the reputation of trying to divide and conquer, lies and illegal wars, but very much take into consideration and hope that this country chnages its way of thinking and conisers the people. As I say "It's people that make a country, not a country that makes the people".

Hope that this makes my position clear. Fight injustice, whether you be muslim or non-muslim. Fight injustice whether it be in your own government or that of someones elses government. Remember as muslims we are obliged by the kalam of Allah the Allmight to fight opression and to help those on whom unjustice is perperatrated and to my understanding this is not confined to those whom are muslims, but of all creation.

format_quote Originally Posted by Isaac

But we have seen thats not acceptable, when some British Somalis were arrested. Yes you may say they were fighting against the government, but at that time the ICU was in charge of Somalia. In this case they were not fighting against THEIR COUNTRY OF CITIZENSHIP.

Its not about whos side I am on, because frankly if it came down to defending my country over defending the opressed and those against whom injustice is being done, regardless of whether they are muslim or non-muslim I will always defend the latter. Its not about where your passport lies, but rather where your morals and heart lies. And to be clear my heart lies with the opressed and those on whom illegal wars are declared upon, on those whom on a regular basis helicopter gunships rain down their terror, on whom on a regular basis bombs are detonated, on whom on a regular basis their wealth is plundered, on whom on a regular basis the world turns a blind eye to and on whom on a regular basis are given the label terrorist when they try to fight back. It just seems to be a bizzare coinsident that most of the above if not all are muslims.

And to be clear, so people do not twist my words, I am talking about those that fight with morals and in accordance to the rules of war. Not those that fight against their own population, or target innocent civilians whether here or there. Whether in the East or the West.

I dont hate this country, infact I like it. I like most if not all the people in the UK. I like in most cases its sense of equality, or at least thats how it use to be. I like the fact that people of all faiths can get gone, or at least try to until the media tries to say otherwise. I like the fact that people of all colours and creeds are allowed to worship freely, or at least in some cases, and I also like the fact that I am not frowned upon by the decent civcilsied individuals in the society I live in.

However I hate the fact that the media plays a bigger role than the government. I hate the fact that the government has manipulated this country and turned countrt men against country men. I hate the fact that the media can give air space to extremist of both ends but fail to give the decent people a chance. I hate the fact that this government can ignore the voices of millions and millions of its own citiznes, of all colours and creeds, but still go and take the people of this country into an ILLEGAL WAR based on LIES and further put this country and its people in harms way.

But hey, I am still Britsh, may not proud to be, due to the reputation of trying to divide and conquer, lies and illegal wars, but very much take into consideration and hope that this country chnages its way of thinking and conisers the people. As I say "It's people that make a country, not a country that makes the people".

Hope that this makes my position clear. Fight injustice, whether you be muslim or non-muslim. Fight injustice whether it be in your own government or that of someones elses government. Remember as muslims we are obliged by the kalam of Allah the Allmight to fight opression and to help those on whom unjustice is perperatrated and to my understanding this is not confined to those whom are muslims, but of all creation.

Isaac;

Re. this question of fighting for the oppressed...can you possibly deny the Shia and Kurds in Iraq were oppressed under Saddam? Shouldn't you then applaud Blair's decision?

What about Jews in Iran? Some have been imprisoned on ridiculous spying charges. Why don't you round up some buds and go help them?

How about the small Christian minority in Sudan during the civil war. Where were the mujahadeen then?

I'm afraid, your statement of a moral imperative to aid the needy, though unimpeachable on moral grounds, sounds a bit tinny when compared to the real world.

Yes the Shia and Kurds were opressed, and its appaling and worrying how the world turned a blind eye to it! You must be estarnged my friend if you think that Tony Blair went in Iraq to free the Shia and Kurds from the opression of Saddam. That is by far the most uneducated statement I have ever heard. Where were the forbearers and provdiers of freedom for the last 8-10 years. Where were they when he actually gassed them? This is my opinion and my opinion only that the British Empire has welcomed its second coming. Or one better the Britsih Empire never left its tactics of command and conquer.

Why should it only be upto muslims to fight opression, injustice and criminality. Why cant individuals find a common ground to help those in need? Why does it have to be about each to their own mentality? And regarding the issues about minority Jews and Christians being persecuted, if that is the case than something is to be done and done now. Yes the mujahideen should do something, but if you ask me they are overstretched trying to protect thier own lands and people, so to go into another country and try to serve and protects its inhabitants would not be a very good apprioach. In fact it would be quite strenous and can prove to be catastrophic.

See this what I really do not understand. If it was the case to liberate the opressed, where are the Western Powers and the forbearers of freedom and democracy when white farmers, were being persecuted, their wealth plunderd and even killed in Zimbabwe under the dictatorship of Mugabe? Where were they when the asian minorities were kicked out of kenya, under the rule of Amin?

Its time that the civilised individuals and those in whoms hearts a dire need to help people regardless of colour and creed get together and end the brutal regimes, state terrorism and dictatorships that exist in the east and west and out the people first. If you do not want to be apart of that than so be it, but do not try to fuel the tension abourt caring for one type of people and reject the other. It is this mentality that people hold, and it is this type of mentality that has made the world what it is today.

Im ashamed to think that a fellow citizen can actually try to disprove the plight of one people, because of the plight of another. How a people can play the game of us v them, when its innocent people that are paying with their lives. Its this that makes me realise whether people really want peace or do they want more murder and bloodshed.

Yes, I wish I could help the opressed. I am obliged by God to help the opressed. And God does not limit to this to those that worship him. I wish I could help, and I try my best where and when possible. But its not very easy when fellow country men, are doing the opposite, when our leaders are creating and fuelling mass murder, when our own citiznes can not accept one another and when our own people are blowing each other up.

can we get back to answering my question please?!?!?!

Assalaamu Alaykum,
Abu Abdullah