so many things are happening in pakistan - increasing taliban influence, nationalist/separatist demands, the sacking of the chief justice, the future of musharraf's dictatorship amidst increasing demands for democracy, the recent demonstrations/strikes, sectarian and ethnic violence, etc. etc.
i know there are a number of pakistanis here. would you share your "take" on what is happening and what you see as the likely future of pakistan, as well as what you would like to see happen in pakistan.
thanks!
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
m writing this with this hope that Pakistanis participants know about role of Pak Army in 1971 ---the massacre/gonecide Pak Army did in 1971 in then East Pakistan ( now Bangladesh ). In short , Pak Army refused to accept the Election result & did not handed power to the elected leader .
As a Muslim , i think , Pakistan should apologise to Bangladeshi Muslims for the mass killing & mass rape their soldeirs did during the 9 months war. Not only they killed thousands of Hindus , they freely killed little kids , unarmed Muslims civilians also.
More lies! It was politicians like bhuto who refused to accept election result not us!
and you should be apologising for selling us to your hindu friends
get the facts straight, it was bhuto a wannabe ruler who did not want pakistan to be ruled by bengali east Pakistani (who had won the overall majority in elections) when the said politician tried to usurp power bengalis went on a rampage of destroying their own country's property (as is norm with these unthinking "muslim" masses) army was sent in, who tried to crush the rebellion by brutal force without realising that they were being surrounded by hindu forces from elsewhere. we had no suply lines open, no ammo, no transport, no food, on verge of collapsing from hunger, Men (bengalis) from our own ranks sabotaging, some of our own pilots (bengalis) along with hindus bombarding us from air, so we sleep walked into a surrender (even before the official one) into torture and starvation camps run jointly by india and mukti bahni scum.
where do you get of blaming our heroes for deeds of our traiters like bhuto and mujib families?
More lies! It was politicians like bhuto who refused to accept election result not us!
and you should be apologising for selling us to your hindu friends
if u r talking to me , then pl . explain what do u mean i m selling u to my hindu friends ? If Muslims did wrong to Hindus , we must try to correct it . Cover up faults does not mean we are innocnet to God or on the last day , we won't get any punishment .
The last Prophet (p) said , ( not the exact words ) if any Muslim commits any injustice to any non-Muslim , i will be on non-Muslim's side .
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
Bengladesh was part of Pakistan, known as East Paksitan. But they were swayed and convinced by India to make their own country and leave pakistan. India was afraid of having Muslims on both side and so they decided to divide them into two nations so its easier to deal with just one at time of war. India promised all this aid and co-working and what not, but when bengladesh separated into a nation, they were left on their own by india and abandoned since India got what they wanted.
Today bengalis have extreme hatred of Pakistanis, blind and ignorant of what India had done to them, turn Muslims against muslims, a nation on its own and divided into two. Some times i wonder they are being punished by Allah for their treachery. That is the most corrupt and poor nation over there. And just last year their Democrarcy collapsed as reported on BBC. They need to stop hating pakistan and blaming it for all their problems and start taking responsibility for their actions and start working hard if they want to get anywhere as nation.
As for the war, many bad things happen at war time. Such is a nature of the war, the enemy is never looked at as human. I"m sure there have been wrong done on many sides over here. But I think hard evidence and proof must be provided to the allegations made against the a pakistan army (which I think will not be hard to do), and then they can sort it out as they wish. Its just like japanese is going thru out now with being demanded to apologize for forcing indonesian (and/or other country) women into brotherls for theiry army.
Lastly, it will be very difficult to find who did what to whom. If all the evidence can be gathered then perhaps the pakistan gov't can issue apology and perhaps compensation of what is required by Islamic law to those the injustice was done against.
As for the middle group that neither gov't takes back. They can move to india or move out of there to some other country. We all live in foriegn lands and still manage to do alright. They can still live in Bengladesh if they want like foriegners, without citizenship, and still make a decent life. Like i said, these people need to stop blaming others for their problems and get up and do something about it.
More lies! It was politicians like bhuto who refused to accept election result not us!
and you should be apologising for selling us to your hindu friends
I think you forgot the history very soon. It was not the politicians who refused to accept the election results. It was the military government who refused to accept the election results. The politicians were demanding General Yahya Khan to call the session of the Parliament. General wanted them to announce him their president before he called the session. The politicians refused to make him the president and they were right because they could not announce him the president before officially taking oath as the members of the parliament. Also the nation didn't vote them for making a general a president. It was the refusal of the military government to call the session of the elected parliament which pushed the Bengalis to start the movement of separation.
Faith, to my mind, is a stiffening process, a sort of mental starch.
where do you get of blaming our heroes for deeds of our traiters like bhuto and mujib families?
for God's sake , forget that u r a pakistani ....think that u r a Muslim & on the last day , u have to be accoutable for what Pak Army did because u r supporting them .
Try to collect info from neutral sources .....from non-Muslims sources about the role of Pak Army in 1971....hopefully u will understand how many un-Islamic acts they committed.
Firstly ; why they rufused to handed the power to the elected person ?
secondly:They killed thousands if not millions civilians . Mass rape is not allowed in Islam .....the soldiers did it freely.....i can understand , pak people were not informed at that time about the truth but now , pl. stop supporting the role of Army / Pak Govt.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
for God's sake , forget that u r a pakistani ....think that u r a Muslim & on the last day , u have to be accoutable for what Pak Army did because u r supporting them .
I am from an army family, almost every man has served since before 47, we took part in almost every skimish, campaign and war imposed on Pakistan including 71. I have dead and disabled relatives and friends from 71 to remind me of the treachery of those "muslims"
Bengladesh was part of Pakistan, known as East Paksitan. But they were swayed and convinced by India to make their own country and leave pakistan.
ohhhh, Indian told Pak leaders to declare that only Urdu will be the state language ??? Conflict began long ago before 1971.........it started with language first ....so far i remember the history now.
When cyclone hit east -Pak & thousands died , no Pak leader visited them as if it's not a part of their country .....so many injustise took place since decades .......why u think , Muslims are so ignorant that if Indian Hindus tell them to start a war & they will start doint it ?
Pl. pl. do a google search & write March 25 , 1971 , Bangladesh . I m sure , u will get enough info to see what Army did there. After midnight , they massacred the civilians.
Today bengalis have extreme hatred of Pakistanis,
if u watch cricket match between Pak vs India in any venue of Bangladesh , u will be surprised to see that how so many Bangladeshi people are supporting their Pak brothers.
They ( except those who were sufferer ) forgave them already because they believe it was a mistake of Pak Army & Muslims must not hate other Muslims & they should support their Muslim brothers .
Such is a nature of the war, the enemy is never looked at as human.
--in Islam , there are do's & don'ts always----- even in wartime . Pl. learn about ethics of war in Islam.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
for God's sake , forget that u r a pakistani ....think that u r a Muslim & on the last day , u have to be accoutable for what Pak Army did because u r supporting them .
Try to collect info from neutral sources .....from non-Muslims sources about the role of Pak Army in 1971....hopefully u will understand how many un-Islamic acts they committed.
Firstly ; why they rufused to handed the power to the elected person ?
secondly:They killed thousands if not millions civilians . Mass rape is not allowed in Islam .....the soldiers did it freely.....i can understand , pak people were not informed at that time about the truth but now , pl. stop supporting the role of Army / Pak Govt.
We need not forget that we're Pakistanis. It's our duty to ask from the army why they did all that which army was not supposed to do. It's the nation who pays the army, not the vice versa. The nation elected their representatives and it was a disgrace to the whole nation, not just the Bengalis that the elected representatives were not allowed to form the government. Bengali women are our sisters, not only because they're Muslims but they were Pak citizens at that time. The disgraceful generals ordered the army men to rape their own sisters. We as Pakistanis are ashamed of this disgraceful act.
Faith, to my mind, is a stiffening process, a sort of mental starch.
I am from an army family, almost every man has served since before 47, we took part in almost every skimish, campaign and war imposed on Pakistan including 71. I have dead and disabled relatives and friends from 71 to remind me of the treachery of those "muslims"
Alhamdulillah that i got a chance to talk to a pak citizen who know those involved in 71 war. I was thinking of contacting to any of them .....but did not know how to do it.
when u will calm down & will think about the war on the Islamic point of view ----not a citizen of Pakistan & not on political ground , then pl ask ur friends about the killing & mass rape.
Ok, for the sake of debate , if it's true that war started for treachery of Bangladeshi Muslims , what was the punishment for that ? Mass killing & mass rape ????
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
if u watch cricket match between Pak vs India in any venue of Bangladesh , u will be surprised to see that how so many Bangladeshi people are supporting their Pak brothers.
I still remember the 1992 world cup in which Pakistan was the champion. Big celebrations took place all over Bangladesh. Eight people were killed when a bridge buckled under the huge crowd in Dhaka.
Faith, to my mind, is a stiffening process, a sort of mental starch.
..Bengali women are our sisters, not only because they're Muslims but they were Pak citizens at that time. The disgraceful generals ordered the army men to rape their own sisters..
exactly.....what Americans soldiers are now doing in Iraq , Pak Army did that in Bangladesh. What a shameful act. As a Muslim , my heart bleeds when i think of mass rape committed by our Muslim brothers.....unbelievable.
We as Pakistanis are ashamed of this disgraceful act.
---i think , it's not enough to be just ashamed . I request all Pakistani participants to do ur best to compensate those who suffered because of ur Army / Govt.
I m not asking u to pay personally ...but write in ur daily paper ( if u live in Pakistan ) ; ask those soldiers who are still alive to send at least a part from thier zakat to the raped women / needy shaheed family in Bangladesh.
Bro NoName55 , pl . try to overcome ur emotions.....i have no intention to lie against Pak Muslim.....how i will be benefitted from that lie ?
Read the history of 1971 war ....forget the text books u read when u were young , now try to collect real info from nuetral sources . And try to decide as a Muslim not as a Pak citizen .....must u do something about it ?
Ask those who took part in 1971 .....did they commit any sin .....murdering innconent civilians or killed hindus just because they were hindus & not armed freedom fighters , they raped any Muslim sisters ( if we want to forget about hindu women ) ? etc , etc.
I m asking u & other as a Muslim .
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 05-20-2007 at 02:08 AM.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
Alhamdulillah that i got a chance to talk to a pak citizen who know those involved in 71 war. I was thinking of contacting to any of them .....but did not know how to do it.
when u will calm down & will think about the war on the Islamic point of view ----not a citizen of Pakistan & not on political ground , then pl ask ur friends about the killing & mass rape.
Ok, for the sake of debate , if it's true that war started for treachery of Bangladeshi Muslims , what was the punishment for that ? Mass killing & mass rape ????
It's not only the Islamic ethics but any army's ethics that such mean things are not done. Moreover, why an army should declare war on its own people. It's the people who feed the army. Even a dong doesn't attack some one who feeds it. Unfortunately, the media was not free in 1971. The government controlled media was giving a lot of disinformation to the people of west Pakistan. Therefore, the people of west Pakistan also started thinking that Bengalis were enemies of Pakistan. Now it's a different story. Army is trying to play the same kind of game in Pakistan these days. Thanks to the free media. The general would not be allowed to repeat the same game here. He has to go. The role of army has to change now. I am very confidant that politicians would be successful in keeping the army to its constitutional role.
Faith, to my mind, is a stiffening process, a sort of mental starch.
---i think , it's not enough to be just ashamed . I request all Pakistani participants to do ur best to compensate those who suffered because of ur Army / Govt.
I m not asking u to pay personally ...but write in ur daily paper ( if u live in Pakistan ) ; ask those soldiers who are still alive to send at least a part from thier zakat to the raped women / needy shaheed family in Bangladesh.
Some Pakistani authors have written books on what Pak army did in East Pakistan. A book "MARSHAL LAW KA SIASI ANDAAZ" written by Rao Abdul Rashid (retied I.G. Police who was posted in East Pakistan at the time of military action) has a lot of eye opening facts. This is a worth reading book for every Pakistani who wants to know what happened in East Pakistan in 1971.
Faith, to my mind, is a stiffening process, a sort of mental starch.
Some posts are having a tinge of nationalism in them, so as a reminder please remember that nationalism has no place in Islam, so keeping that in mind, please have a peaceful decision. Allaah says:
"O mankind! We have created you from male and female and have made you into nations and tribes, that you may know one another. Indeed the most noblest of you with Allaah is the one who has the most taqwaa."
Surah al-Hujuraat 49:13
"Indeed there is no excellence for an arab over a non-arab, nor a non-arab over an arab, nor a white person over a black one, nor a black person over a white one, except through taqwaa"
Saheeh: Related by Ahmad (5/411) and it was authenticated by Ibn Taymiyyah in Kitaabul-lqtidaa (p.69).
at-Tirmidhee relates from Allaah's Messenger sallallaahu 'alayhi wa sallam that he said:
"Let people stop boasting about their forefathers who have died, who are merely fuel for the Hell Fire; or they will certainly be more insignificant with Allaah than the beetle which roles dung with its nose. Allaah has removed from you the party spirit of the days of jaahiliyyah and the boasting about one's forefathers. Indeed a person is either a pious Believer or a wretched sinner. All of mankind are the children of Aadaam, and Aadam was created from clay."
Hasan: Related by Abu Daawood (no.5116) and at-Tirmidhee (no.4233) from Abu Hurayrah radiallaabu anhu. It was authenticated by Ibn Taymiyyah in Kitaabul-lqtidaa (p.35).
“Do not argue with your Lord on behalf of your soul, rather argue with your soul on behalf of your Lord.” - Dhul-Nun
"It is the very pursuit of happiness that thwarts happiness." - Victor Frankl
Some posts are having a tinge of nationalism in them, so as a reminder please remember that nationalism has no place in Islam, so keeping that in mind, please have a peaceful decision.
Pakistan is my country and Islam is my religion. One is my home the other is my way of life. There's no conflict between the two. I don't need to give up one for the sake of the other.
Faith, to my mind, is a stiffening process, a sort of mental starch.
Pakistan is my country and Islam is my religion. One is my home the other is my way of life. There's no conflict between the two. I don't need to give up one for the sake of the other.
if indeed we have to choose between Islam & country , then surely religion will get priority .
Islam does not allow us to commit / support a sin just because my Govt wants to do it / my country is doing this sin. I m not Islamic scholar but i m 100 % sure that Islam does not say that u will become deaf & dumb & blind if u see ur ruler is doing a sin.
The 1st Caliph told his people ( not the exact words ) , support me as long as i m following Islam , disobey me if i give u wrong orders.
Do u know , minimum 50 Pak poet & writers came under prison because they protested against the atorisity of Pak Army ? One of them was Ahmed Selim. U may contact with him if possible.
So , pl. pl. pl. my dear Pak Muslim brothers & sisters , try to find out what happened in 1971 . Do ur best to make conscious ur fellow citizens about the sin Pak Army committed . Ur media/ Govt did not allow u to know at that time about genoside . Now , u can know & ignorance won't be a good excuse on the Last Day.
So many Bangladeshi Muslims already forgave Pakistani Muslims though they ( Pak people on general ) did not show any repentance .
Bangladeshi Muslims did it because they don't want to hate Muslim brothers & sisters of Pakistan for crime of their soldiers / mistake of their Govt.
But , family members of the murdered innocent civilians & the raped victims who are still alive , they do deserve the apology & compensation.
Those who live in Pakistan , pl. at least write one letter in ur local daily addressing to those Pak soldiers who committed goneside in 1971. At least ask them , what they are thinking now about the past ....do they still believe they did the right thing ? If not , must not they do something about their sin ?
Last edited by Muslim Woman; 05-20-2007 at 09:39 AM.
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
Some Pakistani authors have written books on what Pak army did in East Pakistan. A book "MARSHAL LAW KA SIASI ANDAAZ" written by Rao Abdul Rashid (retied I.G. Police who was posted in East Pakistan at the time of military action) has a lot of eye opening facts. This is a worth reading book for every Pakistani who wants to know what happened in East Pakistan in 1971.
English translation available online ?
Christ will never be proud to reject to be a slave to God .....holy Quran, chapter Women , 4: 172
if indeed we have to choose between Islam & country , then surely religion will get priority .
Islam does not allow us to commit / support a sin just because my Govt wants to do it / my country is doing this sin. I m not Islamic scholar but i m 100 % sure that Islam does not say that u will become deaf & dumb & blind if u see ur ruler is doing a sin.
The 1st Caliph told his people ( not the exact words ) , support me as long as i m following Islam , disobey me if i give u wrong orders.
Do u know , minimum 50 Pak poet & writers came under prison because they protested against the atorisity of Pak Army ? One of them was Ahmed Selim. U may contact with him if possible.
So , pl. pl. pl. my dear Pak Muslim brothers & sisters , try to find out what happened in 1971 . Do ur best to make conscious ur fellow citizens about the sin Pak Army committed . Ur media/ Govt did not allow u to know at that time about genoside . Now , u can know & ignorance won't be a good excuse on the Last Day.
So many Bangladeshi Muslims already forgave Pakistani Muslims though they ( Pak people on general ) did not show any repentance .
Bangladeshi Muslims did it because they don't want to hate Muslim brothers & sisters of Pakistan for crime of their soldiers / mistake of their Govt.
But , family members of the murdered innocent civilians & the raped victims who are still alive , they do deserve the apology & compensation.
Those who live in Pakistan , pl. at least write one letter in ur local daily addressing to those Pak soldiers who committed goneside in 1971. At least ask them , what they are thinking now about the past ....do they still believe they did the right thing ? If not , must not they do something about their sin ?
Well people generally don't loose their faith. They also don't want to loose their homes. Both are important. However, there're a plenty of terrorists in Pakistan working on this evil job these days. They want the people to forget about their country for the sake of Islam. They're in fact abusing Islam for some vested interests. Islam doesn't permit extremism. You can build a decent home or country with Islam. If somebody tells you that you've to destroy your home for the sake of Islam, then he's only misguiding you. Never listen to such people and never forward this kind of propositions to others on the forums, please.
Faith, to my mind, is a stiffening process, a sort of mental starch.
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