Saudi Women Have a Message for U.S. Envoy

Please read this... I read it in the times yesterday and thought that it was pretty interesting...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/28/international/middleeast/28hughes.html

"Many in this region say they resent the American assumption that, given the chance, everyone would live like Americans."

I hate being talked to as if sex, drugs and stupidity is somehow the best way of living your life.

I know how it must be tough on Saudi women, all these generations they have been trying to do some type of women's movement subhanallah, but sadly enough even in today's society it has not budged one bit.
Western women compare them to everything most especially the western world. It even appears as if they don't get a hint that we would like to be left alone nevertheless we would always wear the hijab regardless if the westerners are trying to persuade their very own perspective of how WE as muslim women should act in society.
They say that they feel bad for us but deep down inside they don't know how happy we actually are to wear the hijab because it's a symbol of modesty, and you only have to be a muslim women wearing the proper way of hijab to understand what modest actually means.
I see their poems that the western women post up on some websites saying how bad it must be to be a muslim, and they don't realize the truth. The truth is for us to be left alone.

subhanallah.

azim said:

I hate being talked to as if sex, drugs and stupidity is somehow the best way of living your life.

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First of all, sex, drugs and stupidity does not define the American way of life.

Second, I read the article and was not surprised. I don't think any American wants to force our way of life onto another nation and I'm glad these women spoke up and had the freedom to do so. What we do want is for people of other nations to be free. If freedom means choosing to be muslim and living their life according to that religion, that is OK by me.

Americans do view voting as a basic fundamental right of all of our citizens. And, we do not want anyone to be forced to vote. We simply want people to have the right to do so if they chose to.

The thing I have always found to be so interesting is that many muslim women take offense to the western misunderstanding about wearing the hijab, etc. While some westerners think its oppressive (its because they do not know any different), their concern is one out of goodness and concern...not malice. We simply want all women to be treated with respect and have equal opportunities as that of men. It is because we care that we speak out for the rights of all women. Isn't that a good thing?

salam
'The general image of the Arab woman is that she isn't happy'
how would they know about happiness? kuffars can never judge a muslim
wasalam

First of all, sex, drugs and stupidity does not define the American way of life.

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Asallama Alaikum sister if that doesn't define it then what does?

Second, I read the article and was not surprised. I don't think any American wants to force our way of life onto another nation

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Oh really is that so then would you mind telling me why they're occupying most of the muslim countries they're not only there for a vacation you know?

I'm glad these women spoke up and had the freedom to do so. What we do want is for people of other nations to be free. If freedom means choosing to be muslim and living their life according to that religion, that is OK by me.

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By you maybe,but what about Bush and the rest of his blind followers?

The thing I have always found to be so interesting is that many muslim women take offense to the western misunderstanding about wearing the hijab, etc. While some westerners think its oppressive (its because they do not know any different), their concern is one out of goodness and concern...not malice.

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Maybe the muslim women take that as offensive,because it insults their religion.Just because they don't know any better doesn't give them rights at all.We as muslim women don't just go everywhere saying,"Oh,the western women are this and that,"why do western women do that to us?

We simply want all women to be treated with respect and have equal opportunities as that of men. It is because we care that we speak out for the rights of all women. Isn't that a good thing?

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Sister I'm just wondering what are these equal opportunities you speak of?I live in the U.S and truly I see no equal opportunities.

YamahaR1 said:

First of all, sex, drugs and stupidity does not define the American way of life.

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I think I should elaborate what I meant here in more...well intellectual terms.

Has anyone read the book Brave New World? In the BNW mentioned in the book, the population are controlled through sex, a drug called Soma and sleep-conditioning called hyponedia (I think it was called that).

In the typical western society, sex is at the centre of most peoples pursuits (from my experience). You work to earn money, to buy clothes, to look good, to go to a club, to pick up a boy/girl, and at the end of it, have sex. Sex is everywhere, sex sells, so half naked women on billboards and in TV adverts is now normal. Pornography is an industry that makes more money then hollywood. Open your eyes. This is a sign of moral decay, not a liberal society.

When I mention drugs, I dont actually mean cocaine, heroine, cannabis or all the usual ones. These are a problem obviously, but nothing compared to alchohol. How many people have ruined their lives because of alchohol? How many people have been killed because of drink driving? How many fatal fires have been caused by the senseless drunk? How much vandalism has been created through mobs of drunkards? How many crimes are commited while drunk? How many innocent bystanders have been attacked by a gang of drunks? Alchohol is a serious problem. Yet it is perfectly accepted in western society since 'a few drinks help you relax'.

Stupidity = ignorance. An ignorance which is mainly caused by the media.

There is a line in the book which I think might be from the Bible, but it says: -

"What man has joined, nature can never seperate".

It refers to prejudices and ideas taught to the children of the society while young. Today in the media, words such as 'Islamic terrorism' have become collocations, and on the verge of cliches. People associate Islam with terrorism, despite this never being done in any other situation. For example, in Northern Ireland, who ever said 'Catholic Terrorism'. Or in south India, 'Hindu Terrorism'. Despite happening, terms like these arent used.

On top of this, despite the wealth of knowledge and information availiable to people. Very few know about the world issues. Ask the average American/British citizen. "Why is there fighting Israel and the Palestinians?". Honestly, despite it's coverage in the news, how many people could answer it correctly? How many people actually know about the grossly unfair systems of handing out aid? Do the majority of people actually know why fair-trade is wanted, and what it means? Why are muslims fighting in Checnya? Or even closer to home (in America), who could explain the serious problem of gentrification in South America? The unfair laws against illegal immigrants which in essence, reduce them to slaves? The list goes on. Topics everyone has 'heard' about, but very few 'know' about.

I hope I ellaborated on what I meant by the crude phrase 'sex, drugs and stupidity'.

lil Muslameen,

Hi,

We simply want all women to be treated with respect and have equal opportunities as that of men. It is because we care that we speak out for the rights of all women. Isn't that a good thing?

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This is where we disagree. I believe you want women to be treated with respect and have equal opportunities but they must mirror your own thoughts on equality. You *in general not you specifically* don't seem to take into consideration the other person's way of life- but assume urs is what is true. I find that offensive. For example: let's make up a culture right now. Let's pretend that the members of this culture believe that the women when they get married should draw a heart on her head. *not very creative, but i'm just trying to make up something.* The men don't have to draw something on their head.

What i believe is that many Americans would say "hey the women there aren't equal". Why? Because they are viewing women's equality through their own perspective. They aren't thinking about what equality means in the other's.


To say it bluntly: I believe that "Westerners" have the worst case of ethnocentrism that i have ever seen. I'm sorry, i hate generalizing- i really do. But i really feel strongly about this. I know it sounds offensive, but the key word is "i believe". I could be wrong.

But let me elaborate a bit....let's just take the title of the American President: "Leader of the Free World ". What is that supposed to mean? The rest of us are "chained"? Are we not supposed to take that offensively?

Let's imagine this whole scenario in a different way. Let's pretend that "America" wasn't in "charge" of the world right now. Instead, let's pretend that an imaginary country called Kujf is. Kujf's culture is what is dominating the world-- all of a sudden, some Kujfs come to America to explain to Americans just how "lost/oppressed" they are. They want them to be equal and happy. In their, a Kujf woman is only truly happy if she is the chef. That is their ultimate goal in life: to be the best chef because the person who can create the best cake will eat a feast in heaven (istagfir Allah: i'm just trying to give an example). In their beliefs, no man can be the chef. So they go around spreading that message in America. Would you find it annoying that these Kujfs are trying to convert you from your way of life to theirs?

I think many of us (whether Muslim/Christian/Jew/Hindu/etc.) find it annoying when somebody IMPOSES their beliefs on us. It's the same thing with this!

Hopefully, I didn't come off as harsh cause that wasn't my intention at all.

Peace,

Yamaha said:

The thing I have always found to be so interesting is that many muslim women take offense to the western misunderstanding about wearing the hijab, etc.

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Firstly, that's the number one problem right there. "Western" women assume that just because we wear the hijab we are automatically oppressed when they themselves don't even know how we muslim women personally feel about it. They have never been in our shoes and they will never be in our shoes unless they convert to Islam and wear hijab. Until then they assume that we are being oppressed and that's just not true. There is freedom in Islam as well. If a muslim women has the intentions of not choosing to wear hijab in front the of men or any non-mahrams then she is no longer considered a muslim. Simple as that. Yes we do take offense to the western misunderstanding because the majority of the things they "understand" about Islam is completely distorted and erroneous.

Yamaha said:

While some westerners think its oppressive (its because they do not know any different), their concern is one out of goodness and concern...not malice. We simply want all women to be treated with respect and have equal opportunities as that of men. It is because we care that we speak out for the rights of all women. Isn't that a good thing?

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The last thing we would like is for someone to speak on our behalf. We have our own voices as well, we don't need someone else standing up for ourselves we can do just the same thing. The western aspect of what they think about muslim women is wrong. They think that we are being oppressed. How can they speak for us and defend us if they are the ones with the the wrong perspective? If the Westerners understand that we muslim women have to follow our own beliefs regardless of any circumstances than they would leave us alone and let us be free. That's the whole point of freedom yes?

Aalimah said:

Please read this... I read it in the times yesterday and thought that it was pretty interesting...

http://www.nytimes.com/2005/09/28/international/middleeast/28hughes.html

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Could someone paste the article here for those who do not have access?


Greetings Yamaha,

YamahaR1 said:

The thing I have always found to be so interesting is that many muslim women take offense to the western misunderstanding about wearing the hijab, etc. While some westerners think its oppressive (its because they do not know any different), their concern is one out of goodness and concern...not malice. We simply want all women to be treated with respect and have equal opportunities as that of men. It is because we care that we speak out for the rights of all women. Isn't that a good thing?

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When the image that Muslim women are weak and oppressed is continually propagated, while Catholic Nuns or Othodox Jews who cover themselves are considered noble, we have a form of racial discrimination. And racial discrimination is not a good thing. It is rooted in ignorance about the Islamic system, and ignorance breeds fear and hate. Education is the cure for ignorance, trust is the cure for fear, and love is the cure for hate.

Regards

Assalamu alaikum

Could someone paste the article here for those who do not have access?

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There you go...
Saudi Women Have Message for U.S. Envoy

By STEVEN R. WEISMAN
Published: September 28, 2005
JIDDA, Saudi Arabia, Sept. 27 - The audience - 500 women covered in black at a Saudi university - seemed an ideal place for Karen P. Hughes, a senior Bush administration official charged with spreading the American message in the Muslim world, to make her pitch.



Carol T. Powers for The New York Times
Karen P. Hughes, the under secretary of state for public diplomacy, was hired to publicize American ideals in the Muslim world.




But the response on Tuesday was not what she and her aides expected. When Ms. Hughes expressed the hope here that Saudi women would be able to drive and "fully participate in society" much as they do in her country, many challenged her.

"The general image of the Arab woman is that she isn't happy," one audience member said. "Well, we're all pretty happy." The room, full of students, faculty members and some professionals, resounded with applause.

The administration's efforts to publicize American ideals in the Muslim world have often run into such resistance. For that reason, Ms. Hughes, who is considered one of the administration's most scripted and careful members, was hired specifically for the task.

Many in this region say they resent the American assumption that, given the chance, everyone would live like Americans.

The group of women on Tuesday, picked by the university, represented the privileged elite of this Red Sea coastal city, known as one of the more liberal areas in the country. And while they were certainly friendly toward Ms. Hughes, half a dozen who spoke up took issue with what she said.

Ms. Hughes, the under secretary of state for public diplomacy, is on her first trip to the Middle East. She seemed clearly taken aback as the women told her that just because they were not allowed to vote or drive that did not mean they were treated unfairly or imprisoned in their own homes.

"We're not in any way barred from talking to the other sex," said Dr. Nada Jambi, a public health professor. "It's not an absolute wall."

The session at Dar Al-Hekma College provided an unusual departure from the carefully staged events in a tour that began on Sunday in Egypt.

As it was ending Ms. Hughes, a longtime communications aide to President Bush, assured the women that she was impressed with what they had said and that she would take their message home. "I would be glad to go back to the United States and talk about the Arab women I've met," she said.

Ms. Hughes is the third appointee to head a program with a troubled past. The first, Charlotte Beers, a Madison Avenue executive, produced a promotional video about Muslims in America, rejected by some Arab nations and scoffed at by a number of State Department colleagues. Her successor, Margaret D. Tutwiler, a former State Department spokeswoman, lasted barely five months. A report issued in 2003 by a bipartisan panel chosen by the Bush administration portrayed a dire picture of American public diplomacy in the Arab and Muslim world.

Ms. Hughes, on this first foray, has churned through meetings in which she has tirelessly introduced herself as "a mom," explained that Americans are people of faith and called for more cultural and educational exchanges. Her efforts to explain policies in Iraq and the Middle East have been polite and cautious.

As a visiting dignitary, she had audiences in the summer palaces of this Red Sea coastal city with King Abdullah, Crown Prince Sultan and the foreign minister, Prince Saud al-Faisal. But mostly it was a day that underscored the uneasy Saudi-American relationship, fed by unsavory images the two countries have of each another.

In December, there was an armed attack on the American Consulate in Jidda, leaving five people dead, and that meant that the Americans traveling with Ms. Hughes were cautioned against traveling alone in the city.

At the meeting with the Saudi women, television crews were barred and reporters were segregated according to sex. American officials said it was highly unusual for men to be allowed in the hall at all.

A meeting with leading editors, all men, featured more familiar complaints about what several said were American biases against the Palestinians, the incarceration of Muslims at Guantánamo Bay and the alleged American stereotype of Saudis as religious fanatics and extremists after Sept. 11.

Ms. Hughes responded by reminding listeners that President Bush had supported the establishment of a Palestinian state and asserting that Guantánamo prisoners had been visited by the International Red Cross and retained the right to worship with their own Korans.

Americans, she said at one point, were beginning to understand Islam better but had been disappointed that some Muslim leaders had been "reticent" at first in criticizing the Sept. 11 attacks.

"Now, several years later, we're beginning to hear other voices," she said.

But it was the meeting with the women that was the most unpredictable, as Ms. Hughes found herself on the defensive simply by saying that she hoped women would be able to vote in future elections.

In June, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice talked of democracy and freedom in the Middle East but declined to address the question of driving. By contrast, Ms. Hughes spoke personally, saying that driving a car was "an important part of my freedom."

A woman in the audience then charged that under President Bush the United States had become "a right wing country" and that criticism by the press was "not allowed."

"I have to say I sometimes wish that were the case, but it's not," Ms. Hughes said with a laugh.

Several women said later that Americans failed to understand that their traditional society was embraced by men and women alike.

"There is more male chauvinism in my profession in Europe and America than in my country," said Dr. Siddiqa Kamal, an obstetrician and gynecologist who runs her own hospital.

"I don't want to drive a car," she said. "I worked hard for my medical degree. Why do I need a driver's license?"

"Women have more than equal rights," added her daughter, Dr. Fouzia Pasha, also an obstetrician and gynecologist, asserting that men have obligations accompanying their rights, and that women can go to court to hold them accountable.

Ms. Hughes appeared to have left a favorable impression. "She's open to people's opinions," said Nour al-Sabbagh, a 21-year-old student in special education. "She's trying to understand."

Like some of her friends, Ms. Sabbagh said Westerners failed to appreciate the advantages of wearing the traditional black head-to-foot covering known as an abaya.

"I love my abaya," she explained. "It's convenient and it can be very fashionable."

Ansar Al-'Adl said:

Could someone paste the article here for those who do not have access?

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mg: I am so sorry, man I forgot you had to be a member to read the article! Sorry! and thanks bro farhan for posting it.

Jazakallah for sharing dis