EGENSBURG, Germany — In what some immediately saw as a serious diversion from the rapprochement approach of his predecessor, Pope Benedict XVI on Tuesday, September 12, said the Islamic concepts of "Jihad" was unreasonable and against God's nature.
Using the words, "Jihad" and "Holy War" in lecture at the University of Regensburg, the pontiff quoted criticism of Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessing be upon him) by a 14th Century Byzantine Christian emperor, reported Agence France-Presse (AFP).
"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached," Benedict quoted Manuel II.
Quoting the Byzantine Christian emperor, Benedict said spreading the faith through violence is unreasonable and that acting without reason was against God's nature.
"Violence is incompatible with the nature of God and the nature of the soul," added the pontiff in his own words.
British Karen Armstrong, a famed prolific writer on all three monotheistic religions, has criticized stereotyping the Arabic word "jihad" as merely meaning holy war.
She stressed that "jihad is a cherished spiritual value that, for most Muslims, has no connection with violence."
At a giant open-air mass earlier Tuesday, Pope Benedict urged more than 250,000 pilgrims to stand up for their beliefs in the face of the "hatred and fanaticism" tarnishing religion.
"Such an atmosphere made it important to state clearly the God in whom we believe," the pope said.
Strongest criticism
"This is maybe the strongest criticism because he doesn’t speak of fundamentalist Islam but of Islam generally," said Guolo.
Pope's criticism of Islam made his address the most political of his six-day visit to Germany, which had previously dealt exclusively with spiritual matters, commented AFP.
"This is maybe the strongest criticism because he doesn’t speak of fundamentalist Islam but of Islam generally," Renzo Guolo, a professor of the sociology of religion at the University of Padua, told The New York Times on Wednesday, September 13.
"Not all Islam, thank God, is fundamentalist."
Marco Politi, the Vatican expert for the Italian daily La Repubblica, said the pontiff's speech revealed "deep mistrust regarding the aggressive side of Islam."
"Certainly he closes the door to an idea which was very dear to John Paul II — the idea that Christians, Jews and Muslims have the same God and have to pray together to the same God," he asserted.
Daniel A. Madigan, rector of the Institute for the Study of Religions and Cultures at the Pontifical Gregorian University in Rome, agreed.
"If we are really going into a serious dialogue with Muslims we need to take faith seriously."
But papal spokesman Father Federico Lombardi sought to ease the severity of the Pope's rebukes of Islam.
He argued that the pontiff used Manuel's views of Islam only to help explain the issue and not to condemn all of the Muslim religion as violent.
"This is just an example. We know that inside Islam there are many different positions, violent and non-violent," he said.
"The Pope does not want to give an interpretation of Islam that is violent."
Unlike late pope John Paul, Cardinal Ratzinger, who took the name of Benedict after his election, does not approve of joint prayers with Muslims.
He is also skeptical of the value of inter-religious dialogue.
In the summer of 2005, Pope Benedict devoted an annual weekend of study with former graduate students to Islam.
During the meeting, and since, he has reportedly expressed skepticism about Islam’s openness to change given the conviction that the Noble Quran is the unchangeable word of God.
In 2004, Pope Benedict also caused a stir by opposing Turkey's accession into the European Union.
He said Turkey should seek its future in an association of Islamic nations, not with the EU, which has Christian roots
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
Can we perhaps agree that what came out of this, one of which was the shooting of a nun in the back, is far more disgusting than anything that the Pope supposedly said? Because if we can't agree on that, then there isn't much to agree on at all.
Its is disgusting...really sad to hear, honestly =\ I was shocked hearin it. But I dont trust the words that come out of people, regardless of who they are. Humans are known for being liars. But its still sad.
*Without Allah, without Islam, life would be meaningless. If I've ever learned patience, it's because of this. Alhamdulillah...*
Can we perhaps agree that what came out of this, one of which was the shooting of a nun in the back, is far more disgusting than anything that the Pope supposedly said? Because if we can't agree on that, then there isn't much to agree on at all.
Obviously that act was just dispicible and heinous.
What's worse though is that because of the Pope's stature, what he said will incite much more of these.
Obviously that act was just dispicible and heinous.
What's worse though is that because of the Pope's stature, what he said will incite much more of these.
The Pope didn't tell anybody to kill anyone. Those that use this as an excuse to kill and burn down churches can't blame anyone but themselves. If any criticism of Islam is going to be answered with murder and carnage, what does that say about Islam? Most would say these people that kill, burn down places of worship, and riot, aren't representing Muslims. Yet you also blame the Pope's supposed comments about Islam for the violence. Is the violence caused by the Pope or by those who burn and kill? I'm not trying to offend anyone or suggest anything bad about Islam, but you can't denounce an act of violence by putting the blame on someone else. Either follow the word of God, which is peace, or don't. That is a personal decision.
The Pope didn't tell anybody to kill anyone. Those that use this as an excuse to kill and burn down churches can't blame anyone but themselves. If any criticism of Islam is going to be answered with murder and carnage, what does that say about Islam? Most would say these people that kill, burn down places of worship, and riot, aren't representing Muslims. Yet you also blame the Pope's supposed comments about Islam for the violence. Is the violence caused by the Pope or by those who burn and kill? I'm not trying to offend anyone or suggest anything bad about Islam, but you can't denounce an act of violence by putting the blame on someone else. Either follow the word of God, which is peace, or don't. That is a personal decision.
If the President of the United States were to make a statement that all Muslims are terrorists, would you put no blame on him for the obvious aftermath that would occur? I know the quote from the Pope wasn't that extreme but do you get my point?
I don't blame the Pope 100% for the murder of the nun and the burning of the churches but c'mon....they guy HAD to have known that these things would occur after what he said. Shoot I"m an idiot and even I would know that. He's the Pope for goodness sakes!
If the President of the United States were to make a statement that all Muslims are terrorists, would you put no blame on him for the obvious aftermath that would occur? I know the quote from the Pope wasn't that extreme but do you get my point?
I don't blame the Pope 100% for the murder of the nun and the burning of the churches but c'mon....they guy HAD to have known that these things would occur after what he said. Shoot I"m an idiot and even I would know that. He's the Pope for goodness sakes!
Why should he have known? If Christians rioted and killed after some Muslim cleric preached something that offended Christians, you would blame the cleric I assume? C'mon, this is twisted and I would call it childish if the results weren't so disgusting.
Why should he have known? If Christians rioted and killed after some Muslim cleric preached something that offended Christians, you would blame the cleric I assume? C'mon, this is twisted and I would call it childish if the results weren't so disgusting.
He should have known 'cause it's just plain good ole common sense given a look at the history in the past few years. Riots have occurred over cartoons of the Prophet, pbuh....to not think that they would occur over such a harsh statement by such a HUGE religious leader is just silly and nonsensicle.
Which one is worse? I get the attacks on the nun simply because they ended with deaths on innocent people, but I hate trying to distinguish between two wrongs as being "the lesser of two evils". The Pope is not free of fault however.
Firstly, I have merged two threads in here because I felt the later one(started in Comparative Religion section) overlapped the original one and may have led to two threads discussing the same thing. Please bear in mind that conspiracy theories are not allowed.
format_quote Originally Posted by Jayda
Nobody has even for a minute considered that the Pope was being honest when he said he was misunderstood and misquoted,
I don't think this true. There have been a number of concerns in this thread about the true intent behind the words and even requests for the transcript. To say nobody at all considered the possibility sounds inaccurate.
meanwhile your fellow Muslims have firebombed two churches (not even Catholic), rioted all over the world and stabbed a German priest. Is there no such thing as self scrutiny for Muslims? Or does that come only second to correcting the percieved "ignorance" of other people? Where is the vast Muslim apology for the fire bombings riots and attacks on Catholics?
This issue has been condemned by almost every single Muslim in this thread; we all agree that violence is not the answer. It is saddening to see such behaviour and the losses endured by innocent people, so please rest assured that we are against this as much as you.
format_quote Originally Posted by Panatella
Read the text of the entire speech. An intelligent person can see that his use of the quote was to make a greater point. The focus on the quote distorts the meaning, taking it out of context. There will always be troublemakers waiting to pounce on his words, looking to stir the pot.
I agree that one should read the entire speech and try to understand the quote in its context. However, in trying to do this, I was disturbed by a few things. I have highlighted below where I think people may have taken offence at the speech. No offence is intended at our fellow Christian members .
First of all, it was mentioned that the speech was intended as "an invitation to frank and sincere dialogue, with great mutual respect". If such was the case, it would have been quite helpful if not appropriate for the pope to state clearly that while he was using a quote from a Byzantine emperor who did not understand Islam - containing words of attack against the religion - that this misconception was not upheld by people of the Christian faith, or at least himself in this current context. Instead, a quote that is untrue in itself is used to make a valid point about the Christian faith. There is no emphatic clarification of a stance on the issue nor concern for the connotations it holds, and thus the reader is left to assume his own conclusion from such words. I believe that the point in question is - correct me if I am wrong - that spreading faith through violence is unreasonable, and to act unreasonably is contrary to God's nature; but ignores the fact that this lesson is learnt from a false illustration, and perhaps many others could have replaced this picture: others that would not seemingly play with fire or pull the strings of dramatic irony, for how many a person "spread faith through violence" and his religion was not Islam?
If the first point can be summarised as being lack of clarification, the second can be that of ignorance. It is mentioned that the verse regarding no compulsion in the Islamic religion is from a surah of the "early period, when Mohammed was still powerless and under threat". One might question the relevance of this detail before correcting its gross inaccuracy: was it intended to mean that the lack of compulsion was specific to a time of weakness? We cannot arrive at any decisive answer by such conjecture. The verse, in actual fact, is from the longest surah in the Qur'an and hence one from the later period, during which the spread of Islam was no longer under threat; hence we appreciate the length and content of the surah dealing with more detailed issues of Islam. It's rather worrying that the misinformation with regards to this subject is according to "the experts", as mentioned in the speech.
There is a slight problem in semantics when Jihad is referred to as "holy war". This has been addressed in a number of articles, such as: http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...AskAboutIslamE where it states that, "Since this verse (4:135) shows that God accepts only justice, fighting in the name of God is fighting in the name of justice. But, contrary to many people's interpretation, jihad is anything but a "holy" war. In the light and essence of Islam and the Qur'an, there is no war that is holy; under any circumstances whatsoever. In fact, the whole text of the Qur'an and the religion of Islam revolve around the concept of peace, not war".
Up till now, we have assumed that the pope is not trying to teach his audience about Islam, but, as originally stated, is simply making a greater point. Why then is it mentioned through the observation of Theodore Khoury, "but for Muslim teaching, God is absolutely transcendent. His will is not bound up with any of our categories, even that of rationality"? Presumably - and a Christian may correct me if I have this wrong - the same point is being made: that not acting with 'Logos' (i.e. reason) is contrary to God's nature. Again, Christian views appear to be expressed at the expense of Islamic misrepresentation. The work of a "noted French Islamist" is quoted to support the Islamic notion, as opposed to a valid Islamic authority who might be in a better position to explain it. Ibn Hazn is described as having said, "God is not bound even by his own word, and that nothing would oblige him to reveal the truth to us", but when we look to what God Himself revealed in the Qur'an, we find verses that eradicate any doubt as to whether God, the Most Perfect as He is, would reveal anything other than the truth or would be unjust to His creation in any way:
38:84 (Allâh) said: "The Truth is, and the Truth I say, 10:32 Such is Allâh, your Lord in truth. So after the truth, what else can there be, save error? How then are you turned away?
21:18 Nay, We fling (send down) the truth (this Qur'ân) against the falsehood (disbelief), so it destroys it, and behold, it (falsehood) is vanished. And woe to you for that (lie) which you ascribe (to Us) (against Allâh by uttering that Allâh has a wife and a son).
24:25 On that Day Allâh will pay them the recompense of their deeds in full, and they will know that Allâh, He is the Manifest Truth.
3:9 Our Lord! Verily, it is You Who will gather mankind together on the Day about which there is no doubt. Verily, Allâh never breaks His Promise".
4:122 But those who believe (in the Oneness of Allâh - Islâmic Monotheism) and do deeds of righteousness, We shall admit them to the Gardens under which rivers flow (i.e. in Paradise) to dwell therein forever. Allâh's Promise is the Truth, and whose words can be truer than those of Allâh? (Of course, none).
14:47So think not that Allâh will fail to keep His Promise to His Messengers. Certainly, Allâh is All-Mighty, - All-Able of Retribution.
25:16 For them there will be therein all that they desire, and they will abide (there forever). It is a promise binding upon your Lord that must be fulfilled.
4:40 Surely! Allâh wrongs not even of the weight of an atom (or a small ant) , but if there is any good (done), He doubles it, and gives from Him a great reward. 3:108These are the Verses of Allâh: We recite them to you (O Muhammad ) in truth, and Allâh wills no injustice to the 'Alâmîn (mankind and jinns).
39:69 And the earth will shine with the light of its Lord (Allâh, when He will come to judge among men) and the Book will be placed (open) and the Prophets and the witnesses will be brought forward, and it will be judged between them with truth, and they will not be wronged.
So numerous are the verses conveying these messages, that one might go as far as to say it is inconceivable that a person who has read the Qur'an could make such a mistake as to doubt God's utmost justice.
To conclude, I think that if one decides to journey through a religion in order to make any point, it is only fair that they portray that transient image in an accurate and acceptable form, especially when interfaith respect and dialogue is so widley sought after in today's world.
format_quote Originally Posted by lavikor201
According to Muslims of course.
The 4.5 Billion in the world believe him to be a fake or have no relevance to their lives. Just to clarify this.
The Pope really should have a clean cupboard of Catholic worth before he opened his mouth.
Among all organised crime here in Australia it is very common knowledge that the corruption by which nazism sought to thwart all Christian practise, and still today seeks to corrupt children, is that which supplies the coffers in Rome. Now since I am no criminal, I can not provide of any verification of these facts. Nor even can criminals without their lives being put at risk. But certainly the bikie gangs get about swaggering that they are supported in nazi method by the Pope.
Now when I also, as many now know in Australia, that a child who Prays in a Catholic church in true Faith in Jesus, and whom is identified as an Indigenous Australian; is robbed by shaytan on behalf of the Pope, and caused to experience being treated externally as though guilty of crimes against children; I must ask, who would not rise to Jihad?
Holy war is neither a new thing with the advent of Islam. The Jews were often assisted by God to defeat their enemies. Yet in Jesus, it is the function that the Pope should role model, to only accept what is, and not become a combatant.
wasalam
Within the Realm of King Solomon
Who could have known I was home grown
An accuser's false allegation
Did warrant only my Nation in apology for inconveniences
its shaytan leeches
who accuse
my unconscious sleep
of accusing you too cheep
I will be selling for five times three
centsiblity
Once again I've been thinking about this, and allow me to play "devils advocate" (for lack of a better word) for a moment, as well as try to make a point of my own:
Why should the Pope have apologized? People blaspheme against Jesus, and his Catholic church every single day on cartoons, news, etc. and Catholics don't demand an apology or resort to violence. <--- That is how non-muslims are thinking, I guarantee it. Again, I understand and empathize with the muslim community for being upset for the simple fact that the comments were of poor taste. But here is how EVERY average non-muslim sees these events:
Pope: "Mohammed preached to spread the word through violence."
The common idea of what Muslims are: "No he didn't....WE'LL KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE FOR SAYING THAT!"
And the stereotype of Muslims & Islam as being rooted in violence just continues to appear as a truth. So once again, the Pope was in the wrong. But justifying or even TRYING to justify his comments as being just as bad or even worse as the killing of the innocent isn't possible. They are on POLAR opposites of the spectrum.
I think that people have taken this too far. The Media have piped this up again and said lets see how far we can push the Muslims and us Muslims have followed this lead and began behaving in an unislamic way again.
I think the best response would have been is to get togther and have written to the pope asking him top expain himself. The reaction we have taken is just another proof that we listen to the Media and rea act in the worse possible way without any proof.
At the end of the day the pope has apologised and that should end the crisis!
I think that people have taken this too far. The Media have piped this up again and said lets see how far we can push the Muslims and us Muslims have followed this lead and began behaving in an unislamic way again.
I think the best response would have been is to get togther and have written to the pope asking him top expain himself. The reaction we have taken is just another proof that we listen to the Media and rea act in the worse possible way without any proof.
At the end of the day the pope has apologised and that should end the crisis!
I know they say they will 'Burn crosses in Rome' and Kill hte pope this is not what Islam needs. It's such a negative response.
Ėk Gusā Alhu Mėrā
The One Lord, the Lord of the World, is my God Allah.
Dhan Guru Arjan Dev Mahraaj Ji!
Kal Meh Bėḏ Atharbaṇ Hū Nā Kẖuḏā Alhu Bẖa.
In the Dark Age of Kali Yuga, the Atharva Veda became prominent; Allah became the Name of God.
In the Name of Allaah, the Beneficent, the Most Merciful
A Concise Response to the Pope
The Pope Denies the Pope?
First Point: The Pope Believes and Preaches the Bible.
Second Point: In the Bible there are commands to Kill,
Destroy, Sending People to Hell, etc.
Third Point: Is this absolute "Violence and Inhumane?" Or
could there be Justified Commands Fit to befall those who
deserved to receive the Wrath of God?
Fourth Point: This Proves that either the Pope does not believe
in His Bible, or…..!!!!
Finally: How does this match with the 'Science and Faith"
Scholastic Lecture of the Pope?
Written by
Saleh As-Saleh
That somebody said islam was spread by the sword. "But" the pope said "religion and violence are not compatible."
The pope is a scholar and thinks like scholar.
-
It might have been more complete to finish that point by stating how wrong this somebody from history therefore was, so as not to accidentally imply that this is 'where Islam goes wrong, and where others should not follow'.
format_quote Originally Posted by JMF
Why should the Pope have apologized? People blaspheme against Jesus, and his Catholic church every single day on cartoons, news, etc. and Catholics don't demand an apology or resort to violence. <--- That is how non-muslims are thinking, I guarantee it.
This goes back to the discussion on the Danish cartoons, where the same question was put forward, although in the context of freedom of speech. It is a little different here, because the argument is not freedom of speech but more relating to responsibility and wisdom of religious scholars. So we could say that the pope should have known better and the matter was made all the more unacceptable by him being a figure of understanding, authority and respect.
The other issue is why are Muslims offended so much when people of other faiths endure defamation of sacred symbols aswell? One explanation that was given in the following thread seeks to contextualise the events and implores a deeper reflection:
format_quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
The reaction you have witnessed is related to what these caricaturesreally signify. Muslims feel that there has been an on-going campaign undertaken by many elements within the western media to malign and demonize Islam. Islam and the Prophet Muhammad pbuh has been repeatedly attacked and at a time when we need to reach out and increase our understanding of different minority groups we find that instead misconceptions and slanderous comments are being propagated. When these cartoons were published, the Muslim community in Denmark and other western countries felt that the percieved attack on Islam had now become obvious. The cartoons represented a malicious attempt to malign Islam and incite more hatred towards the Muslim community. This is why the Muslims felt that they needed to voice loud protest and cause the world to realize that we cannot continue to propagate hatred towards others if we intend to promote peace.
We can also go on to say that while there is freedom of speech, it needs to be used responsibly; nobody should be insulting any religion in the first place. Furthermore, this is not exclusively suggested by Muslims, but limitations to free expression have always existed as discussed in earlier threads such as:
Another plausible reason for a greater impact such slander has on the Muslim community is their reverence for their religion. Blasphemy might go down lightly with people who are not as religiously devout, but Muslims are deeply hurt when a person loved dearer than their own selves is insulted - and note that I say insulted, not simply disbelieved in.
And the stereotype of Muslims & Islam as being rooted in violence just continues to appear as a truth. So once again, the Pope was in the wrong. But justifying or even TRYING to justify his comments as being just as bad or even worse as the killing of the innocent isn't possible. They are on POLAR opposites of the spectrum.
In the same breath as attempting to explain the reaction of some Muslims, we also wholeheartedly agree that violent actions are only adding insult to injury. In the first thread quoted above, you will find lists of Muslim scholars condemning such actions in the case of the Danish caricatures, and likewise we reiterate our stance against a similar issue now.
U.S. MUSLIMS CALL FOR DIALOGUE OVER POPE'S COMMENTS ON ISLAM
CAIR seeks meeting with Vatican representative in Washington, D.C.
(WASHINGTON, D.C., 9/15/2006) - The Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR) today called for increased dialogue between Muslims and Catholics over the controversy sparked by remarks perceived as insulting to Islam and the Prophet Muhammad made by Pope Benedict XVI. CAIR is also seeking a meeting with the Vatican's representative in Washington, D.C., to discuss the remarks.
In an address on Tuesday, the Pope quoted a 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor as saying: "Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached."
SEE: Muslim Leaders Blast Pope's Comments (Washington Post)
In a statement issued today, the Washington-based Islamic civil rights and advocacy group said:
"The proper response to the Pope's inaccurate and divisive remarks is for Muslims and Catholics worldwide to increase dialogue and outreach efforts aimed at building better relations between Christianity and Islam. This unfortunate episode also offers an opportunity for Christians to learn more about Islam, the Prophet Muhammad and the Islamic concept of jihad.
"Jihad is a central and broad Islamic concept that includes struggle against evil inclinations within oneself, struggle to improve the quality of life in society, struggle in the battlefield for self-defense (e.g., - having a standing army for national defense), or fighting against tyranny or oppression. 'Jihad' should not be translated as 'holy war.'
"The Quran, Islam's revealed text, condemns forced acceptance of any faith when it states: 'Let there be no compulsion in religion.' (2:256) Islam calls for peace once oppression ends: 'Fight in the cause of God with those who fight against you, but do not exceed the limits...If they desist, let there be no hostility except against the oppressors." (2:190-193)
"Muslims are also asked to maintain good relations with people of other faiths, and to engage in constructive dialogue. 'And dispute not with the People of the Book (Christians and Jews) except with means better (than mere disputation). . .but say, 'We believe in the Revelation that has come down to us and in that which came down to you.'" (29:46)
"The Quran also states: '(Rest assured that) those who believe (in the Quran), and those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Christians, and the Sabians - whoever believes in God and the last day and performs good deeds - will be rewarded by their Lord. They will have nothing to fear or to regret.' (2:62)
"In Islam, there is no contradiction between faith and reason. The first verses revealed to the Prophet Muhammad included: 'Read! In the name of your Lord. . .Read! Your Lord is the Most Gracious, Who taught by the (use of the) pen, taught man what he knew not.' Historically, whenever Islam flourished, so did knowledge and discovery.
"Let us all continue the interfaith efforts promoted by the late Pope John Paul II, who made great strides in bringing Muslims and Catholics together for the common good."
Along with a request for a meeting with a Vatican representative in the United States, CAIR is urging Americans of all faiths to learn more about Islam and about the life and legacy of the Prophet Muhammad by requesting a free Quran or a book or DVD about Muhammad at www.explorethequran.org and www.cair.com/Muhammad.
CAIR has 32 offices and chapters nationwide and in Canada. Its mission is to enhance the understanding of Islam, encourage dialogue, protect civil liberties, empower American Muslims, and build coalitions that promote justice and mutual understanding.
- END -
CONTACT: CAIR National Communications Director Ibrahim Hooper, 202-488-8787 or 202-744-7726, E-Mail: [email protected]
-----
CAIR
Council on American-Islamic Relations
453 New Jersey Avenue, S.E.
Washington, D.C. 20003
Tel: 202-488-8787, 202-744-7726
Fax: 202-488-0833
E-mail: [email protected]
URL: http://www.cair.com
the few muslims who react with violence to provokations such as this, are the true enemies of islam and do much more harm than any words out of the pope's mouth. just my 2 cents.
each man thinks of his own fleas as gazelles
question authority
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) in truth, and Allâh wills no injustice to the 'Alâmîn (mankind and jinns). 
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