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The month of Ramadhan [is that] in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for the people and clear proofs of guidance and criterion. So whoever sights [the new moon of] the month, let him fast it; and whoever is ill or on a journey - then an equal number of other days. Allah intends for you ease and does not intend for you hardship and [wants] for you to complete the period and to glorify Allah for that [to] which He has guided you; and perhaps you will be grateful. [2:185]
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  1. #1
    Imraan's Avatar
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    Non practising but best of character.

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    Assalamwalaikum. Advice please.

    Can we encounter people that are very humane and have the best of character yet they may not be practising Islam or any other faith in that matter?

    I think its possible and I think it would be narrow minded to regard someone as not being of good character just because they don't observe their faith the way they are supposed to or any faith in that matter. I think it's absolutely possible for example look at humanitarian workers, they have got to be motivated, compassionate empathetic selfless and charitable enough to do what they do. There are volunteers who would claim they didn't believe in any religion, any god but their actions are 'I'm guessing' based merely on the notion of preserving humanity.

    Normally a good character has to have a basis on something / a foundation to always fall back on. We as muslims of the practising type think twice before our actions and try to base our morals / behaviour on Islamic ettiquette as well as our parental upbringing where those of us have been privileged to receive in various degrees.

    Moving on, when meeting new people as colleagues or friends or friends of friends or someone who takes part in local masjid outdoor activities but you never see them for salaah or when looking for a potential spouse is it fair to disregard someone that honestly and outrightly
    from the outset claimed 'they weren't practicing and don't observe daily prayers etc.' although they come across as nice, down to earth and of sound character. Is it better to keep them at a distance and keep reservations on them?

    From a marriage perspective (as theres a lot riding on it, it's a life changing event and a very big decision and in the end Allah swt knows what the outcome will be way before you even thought about anticipating such event), as practising muslims should we be looking for like for like or set a suitable minimum shouldnt we as a means of precaution? Theres only so many precautions one can take and it can still end badly. Being too precautious also limits and places restrictions in getting married. Finding middle ground can also be difficult too. What should people do? Pray and hope for the best or be patient and tell one self it's not all doom and gloom despite worrying about society and what it is turning into. (I realise I may be referring to my own insecure views here but still a valid point in general on a global scale)

    In my view of the people who are muslims in my community / country UK the pool for the non practising types is / or has already surpassed the volume of people who do actively practise Islam to a minimum I.e. daily salaahs and remembrance of Allah swt. In Ramadan and on eid celebrations majority of people who are Muslim by identity come out and this number grows every year. However all the other days of the year the numbers that partake in daily salaah etc seem like a small fraction.

    So other than praying Is there anything else we can do?

    My understanding is that I don't judge people just by looking at them or on a first or 2nd encounter. I look at how well and how long have I known them and guestimate what their character might be like based on their actions. Off course when it comes to marriage it's hard to gauge what truly lies in someone's heart because we just don't know them well enough at a level detailed enough, hence why we have all these character references, family background checks and all sorts.

    Jazakumullah Khair

    Imran
    Last edited by Imraan; 4 Weeks Ago at 04:40 PM.
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    CuriousonTruth's Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Humanitarian workers and organizations are not "selfless". They have their agenda and ideology and if you don't follow that ideology they will never side with you.

    Also take into account many of the humanist types view Religion as the greatest disease of mankind and would prefer to see the world without it.

    As for marriage, a true Muslim would be completely incompatible with a seculatist, no matter how much of a humanist he/she is. Actually the more humanist he/she is the worse it is.

    I am not well versed about religiosity of UK so I am not going to comment on that.

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    Ahmed.'s Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Humanitarians do their work ultimately to deceive themselves. They delude themselves into thinking they're good people so they don't have to believe in Islam or God. They use it as a 'justification' to be a desbeliever.

    This is why they will still end up in hell
    Last edited by Ahmed.; 4 Weeks Ago at 10:41 PM.

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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imraan View Post
    I think its possible and I think it would be narrow minded to regard someone as not being of good character just because they don't observe their faith the way they are supposed to or any faith in that matter. I think it's absolutely possible for example look at humanitarian workers, they have got to be motivated, compassionate empathetic selfless and charitable enough to do what they do. There are volunteers who would claim they didn't believe in any religion, any god but their actions are 'I'm guessing' based merely on the notion of preserving humanity.

    Normally a good character has to have a basis on something / a foundation to always fall back on. We as muslims of the practising type think twice before our actions and try to base our morals / behaviour on Islamic ettiquette as well as our parental upbringing where those of us have been privileged to receive in various degrees.
    Salaam

    all good comes from God - some non Muslims are closer to the fitrah then others - even Muslims who dont have good character because they are just born as a Muslim but have never internalized the deen into good character - whilst non Muslims may not be Muslim for variety of complex reasons (Ignorance of Islam, born in a different religion, bad example of Muslims makes Islam look alien and unattractive) they still seem to show moral concern that puts Muslims to shame.

    Ultimately God guides who God wills and its up to God who Goes where in the hereafter.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    Humanitarians do their work ultimately to deceive themselves. They delude themselves into thinking they're good people so they don't have to believe in Islam or God. They use it as a 'justification' to be a desbeliever.

    This is why they will still end up in hell
    This is not true as we have no idea where the non Muslim will be in the future or hereafter - we don't even know where we will be in the afterlife.
    Last edited by Zafran; 4 Weeks Ago at 02:50 AM.
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    Non practising but best of character.

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Abz2000's Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    The minimal requirement for marriage is eemaan in Allah and the last day with the will or high likelihood of coming ever closer to the path of truth.
    Islaam is the personal and social attitude and discipline of a person who is closest to the straight path and it is required in the male who sets the rules.

    One piece of advice would be to be cautious of trusting a person who is hopeless of attaining paradise even if you excercise ihsaan and bear with them in this world kindly.

    Whether Allah guides a person to the complete truth is a choice of His own, and He has stated that He would guide them if He found good in them - so we can hypothesise that Allah's measure for *good* inside a person has an intricate and complicated texture.

    Regarding volunteers for charity agencies, that aspect of their character may be very good, better than oneself, it is therefore wise to assist them in what is good if possible - bearing in mind that they may have sins that prevent them from accepting the haqq as haqq due to the internal turmoil their sin would necessarily cause them, and their solution of covering the truth from their minds and brushing it off makes them psychologically defective, and this kind of defect manifests in other ways when self-interest is at stake and the obfuscation screen envelops the mind and causes them to ignore that which puts them in the wrong - putting them in a different category to those whose number one priority is passing the final exam for eternity whilst dealing with flaws along the way.

    The story of iblees and Aadam and eve shows us that Allah's main requirement is humility, the acceptance of one's own faults as faults in the light of what Allah opines, and the will to walk straight.
    Attempting to (like iblees) absolve oneself of all flaws and consider oneself as correct whilst claiming that Allah is deficient in intelligence or that He doesn't exist despite the signs -is ultimately ignorance, arrogance, and criminality.
    That doesn't mean that there isn't any good in a person, but rather, that the person is possibly lacking in all-round character.

    If you think that a person fits the basic characteristics of good - maybe ask them to open an account with Allah so they can deposit their good deeds in paradise and be saved from being judged as malware-ridden rejects.

    The word kufr relates to covering, burying, being unjustly ungrateful, and if haqq is covered or ignored in the mind - the reason is usually that dhulm has Trumped in that aspect.

    Abu Tuaalib could be considered a curious example of this type of character.

    It is ultimately eemaan and kufr that point to the priorities of a person since eternity has two destinations.
    Last edited by Abz2000; 4 Weeks Ago at 06:20 AM.
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    Non practising but best of character.













  8. #6
    Ahmed.'s Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Salaam

    all good comes from God - some non Muslims are closer to the fitrah then others - even Muslims who dont have good character because they are just born as a Muslim but have never internalized the deen into good character - whilst non Muslims may not be Muslim for variety of complex reasons (Ignorance of Islam, born in a different religion, bad example of Muslims makes Islam look alien and unattractive) they still seem to show moral concern that puts Muslims to shame.

    Ultimately God guides who God wills and its up to God who Goes where in the hereafter.

    - - - Updated - - -



    This is not true as we have no idea where the non Muslim will be in the future or hereafter - we don't even know where we will be in the afterlife.
    It says in Quran they'll be in hell

    Some will be retested due to not getting Islamic message, like people in between Prophets, and maybe some from this age but we leave that to Allah who they will be.

    We judge on the apparent so apparently they've all rejected Islam in this day and age as Islamic message is accessible by all, so apparently they're all going to hell except people in remote communities like rain forest bush people who've never heard about Islam
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    Zafran's Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    It says in Quran they'll be in hell

    Some will be retested due to not getting Islamic message, like people in between Prophets, and maybe some from this age but we leave that to Allah who they will be.

    We judge on the apparent so apparently they've all rejected Islam in this day and age as Islamic message is accessible by all, so apparently they're all going to hell except people in remote communities like rain forest bush people who've never heard about Islam
    I disagree - take UK for example, the vast majority of people are ignorant of Islam and only know what the news or the friend down the street tells them. Its alot like Muslims and Buddhism for example. Most people are either to invested in the paradigm they live in eg liberalism Pro LGBT stuff or right wing racism. The common person is told that religion is outdated and that Muslims are backwards. They watch the news and go online and thats what they see and of course conclude they don't want any part of it.

    The Muslims sometimes do stupid stuff and that magnifies what the society tells them. So I dont think they have rejected Islam. There are of course people that hate Islam and are enemies of Islam but even they can change - we have plenty of examples of that recently from far right party members becoming Muslim.

    God decides who Goes to heaven and hell - some are mentioned in the Quran by name others are alluded,that includes the Hypocrites.
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    Non practising but best of character.

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

  10. #8
    Physicist's Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    It says in Quran they'll be in hell

    Some will be retested due to not getting Islamic message, like people in between Prophets, and maybe some from this age but we leave that to Allah who they will be.

    We judge on the apparent so apparently they've all rejected Islam in this day and age as Islamic message is accessible by all, so apparently they're all going to hell except people in remote communities like rain forest bush people who've never heard about Islam
    It could also be, that a person lives among muslims but still didn't get Islamic message, because of miscommunication, like talking in different languages.
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  11. #9
    Ahmed.'s Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    I disagree - take UK for example, the vast majority of people are ignorant of Islam and only know what the news or the friend down the street tells them. Its alot like Muslims and Buddhism for example. Most people are either to invested in the paradigm they live in eg liberalism Pro LGBT stuff or right wing racism. The common person is told that religion is outdated and that Muslims are backwards. They watch the news and go online and thats what they see and of course conclude they don't want any part of it.

    The Muslims sometimes do stupid stuff and that magnifies what the society tells them. So I dont think they have rejected Islam. There are of course people that hate Islam and are enemies of Islam but even they can change - we have plenty of examples of that recently from far right party members becoming Muslim.

    God decides who Goes to heaven and hell - some are mentioned in the Quran by name others are alluded,that includes the Hypocrites.
    You are right in terms of how God might judge them, however what I said about judging on the apparent is correct brother and that's been the Islamic way for last 14 centuries:

    Logically, if rejecting an essential part is
    kufr, then rejecting the whole is a priori kufr. For this reason, Muslims have traditionally seen non-Muslims as kuff¥r (disbelievers), as they are not part of the fold of Islam.

    The legal status of a k¥r is important to ascertain, as a k¥r does not inherit from Muslims, nor do Muslims inherit from a k¥r Moreover, a k¥r is not buried according to Islamic funeral rites, NOR IS HE OR SHE PRAYED FOR AFTER DEATH BY MUSLIMS. .

    The Prophet Mu^ammad said, “I was commanded to judge by the outward, and to God is left the [ matter of judging] inner realities.”

    https://www.scribd.com/document/2153...e-Disbelievers


    and here is the reason why non-Muslims are not prayed for after their death:


    As for after their death, it is impermissible (haram) to make dua for forgiveness and the like for a non-Muslim, for Allah Most High said, “It is not for the Prophet and those who believe to pray for the forgiveness of unbelievers even though they may be near of kin after it has become clear that they are people of hell-fire.” [Qur’an, 9: 113]

    https://www.seekersguidance.org/answ...o-passed-away/
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    CuriousonTruth's Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    I disagree - take UK for example, the vast majority of people are ignorant of Islam and only know what the news or the friend down the street tells them. Its alot like Muslims and Buddhism for example. Most people are either to invested in the paradigm they live in eg liberalism Pro LGBT stuff or right wing racism. The common person is told that religion is outdated and that Muslims are backwards. They watch the news and go online and thats what they see and of course conclude they don't want any part of it.

    The Muslims sometimes do stupid stuff and that magnifies what the society tells them. So I dont think they have rejected Islam. There are of course people that hate Islam and are enemies of Islam but even they can change - we have plenty of examples of that recently from far right party members becoming Muslim.

    God decides who Goes to heaven and hell - some are mentioned in the Quran by name others are alluded,that includes the Hypocrites.
    Let's not kid ourselves, the culture you are speaking of was cultivated by the Europeans themselves during what they call "Age of enlightenment". Stop pretending they are victims and giving them free jail card.

    "They watch the news and go online and thats what they see and of course conclude they don't want any part of it. "

    They don't want any part of it, but let's not forget they are proud of the British Empire, the second most evil empire in history.

    "
    but even they can change"

    How many millions need to die to the Western Coalition before you conclude that all the bending over to get some racist extremist into islam isn't worth it.

  14. #11
    Physicist's Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth View Post
    ...

    How many millions need to die to the Western Coalition before you conclude that all the bending over to get some racist extremist into islam isn't worth it.[/COLOR]
    That's exactly what they are trying to do, to enrage you enough to make you give up on differentiating.

    Majority of population are victims of propaganda. I remember myself, being a teenager, angry at indecisive generals for not nuking muslim countries.
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Physicist View Post
    That's exactly what they are trying to do, to enrage you enough to make you give up on differentiating.

    Majority of population are victims of propaganda. I remember myself, being a teenager, angry at indecisive generals for not nuking muslim countries.
    You live in Malaysia?

    They are no victims, they embrace what they are. Even in the videos where for example Israeli cruelty is disaplayed where the IDF is shooting teenagers and kids, they don't condemn it rather they say, "God bless ISrael, kill all those terrorists Fakeistinians." THis is one example, there are hundreds of thousands more.

    You can look at comment section regarding Myanmar's genocide of Rohingya, or CHinese ethnic cleansing of Uighur, they are openly celebrating genocide and rape.

    Anyone who finds sympathy or finds excuses for such people, I honestly think is complicit with them.

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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    You perhaps have never been exposed to propaganda. Especially children are vulnerable, they may grow up, but just being used to think that people of certain nations are born sadists/rapists, that Islam is cruel and barbaric religion.
    I'm on my Hijra, but remember how efficient was that propaganda, during Chechnya wars, that was testing ground for many things
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth View Post
    Let's not kid ourselves, the culture you are speaking of was cultivated by the Europeans themselves during what they call "Age of enlightenment". Stop pretending they are victims and giving them free jail card.
    Non of this has any bearing on good character and hereafter which is to do with God, prophet hood and the message of Islam - that has little to do with your own colonial social historical critic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth View Post
    They don't want any part of it, but let's not forget they are proud of the British Empire, the second most evil empire in history.
    No difference with many Muslims are proud of doing terrible acts around the world - sir lanka comes to mind - point being this reductive approach has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.


    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth View Post
    How many millions need to die to the Western Coalition before you conclude that all the bending over to get some racist extremist into islam isn't worth it.
    Islam isn't your family heirloom - its the truth for all of humanity including for people like Omar Ibn Khattab (ra) Khallid ibn Walid(ra) and all sorts of people today. God guides who he wills and has nothing to do with your colonial historical critic.
    Non practising but best of character.

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    CuriousonTruth's Avatar
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Zafran View Post
    Non of this has any bearing on good character and hereafter which is to do with God, prophet hood and the message of Islam - that has little to do with your own colonial social historical critic.

    - - - Updated - - -



    No difference with many Muslims are proud of doing terrible acts around the world - sir lanka comes to mind - point being this reductive approach has nothing to do with what is being discussed here.




    Islam isn't your family heirloom - its the truth for all of humanity including for people like Omar Ibn Khattab (ra) Khallid ibn Walid(ra) and all sorts of people today. God guides who he wills and has nothing to do with your colonial historical critic.
    Neither are the lives lost fodder for your conversion obsession. If anything it seems Europeans have been guided to being enemies of Islam and nothing more. And we should remember there are hadiths regarding conquest of Rome. This is a strong indicator that EuropeanS will not be converting to Islam, insha'Allah.

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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth View Post
    Neither are the lives lost fodder for your conversion obsession. If anything it seems Europeans have been guided to being enemies of Islam and nothing more. And we should remember there are hadiths regarding conquest of Rome. This is a strong indicator that EuropeanS will not be converting to Islam, insha'Allah.
    The evidence points to the contrary Islam is going to play a big part in the west in the future not because of conversion but because of birth rates and migration/globalization. You shouldn't hate people for being a specific ethnicity - we should pray that everybody becomes Muslim and is saved. We should be optimistic and not negative.
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    Non practising but best of character.

    Do you think the pious don't sin?

    They merely:
    Veiled themselves and didn't flaunt it
    Sought forgiveness and didn't persist
    Took ownership of it and don't justify it
    And acted with excellence after they had erred - Ibn al-Qayyim

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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by CuriousonTruth View Post
    Neither are the lives lost fodder for your conversion obsession. If anything it seems Europeans have been guided to being enemies of Islam and nothing more. And we should remember there are hadiths regarding conquest of Rome. This is a strong indicator that EuropeanS will not be converting to Islam, insha'Allah.
    Out of curiosity and interest what is your avatar / profile logo about?

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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Imraan View Post
    - - - Updated - - -



    Out of curiosity and interest what is your avatar / profile logo about?
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coat_o...Ottoman_Empire
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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahmed. View Post
    and here is the reason why non-Muslims are not prayed for after their death:


    As for after their death, it is impermissible (haram) to make dua for forgiveness and the like for a non-Muslim, for Allah Most High said, “It is not for the Prophet and those who believe to pray for the forgiveness of unbelievers even though they may be near of kin after it has become clear that they are people of hell-fire.” [Qur’an, 9: 113]

    https://www.seekersguidance.org/answ...o-passed-away/
    It is largely agreed to be true a Muslim can't make dua for a non-Muslim after their death, but according to my understanding this verse above has little or nothing to do with it. The rule might come from a hadith that says Muhammad all Allahu alaihi wassallam asked Allah for permission to visit his mother's grave and Allah gave it to him, but when he asked to seek forgiveness for her Allah prohibited it.

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    Re: Non practising but best of character.

    Quote Originally Posted by Chordata View Post
    It is largely agreed to be true a Muslim can't make dua for a non-Muslim after their death, but according to my understanding this verse above has little or nothing to do with it. The rule might come from a hadith that says Muhammad all Allahu alaihi wassallam asked Allah for permission to visit his mother's grave and Allah gave it to him, but when he asked to seek forgiveness for her Allah prohibited it.
    Salaam Sister and thankyou for your valuable contribution, however I must say that the ruling does come from that Quran verse as this is the reason Scholars give too:

    As for after their death, it is impermissible (haram) to make dua for forgiveness and the like for a non-Muslim, for Allah Most High said, “It is not for the Prophet and those who believe to pray for the forgiveness of idolators even though they may be near of kin after it has become clear that they are people of hell-fire.” [Qur’an, 9: 113] There are hadiths that indicate this, and there is scholarly consensus (ijma`) on this matter.” [al-Mawsu`a al-Fiqhiyya, Kuwait]

    And Allah knows best.

    Faraz Rabbani.

    https://islamqa.org/hanafi/qibla-hanafi/36677

    About the Prophets (saw) mother, most scholars say that she and Prophets (saw) dad is in Paradise and those hadiths that seems to indicate otherwise are either misunderstood or not authentic.
    Last edited by Ahmed.; 3 Weeks Ago at 03:03 PM.
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