Can someone please explain to me that on verse 16:68,69. The worker bee is refered to a female bee, can someone please explain to me how? someone has told me that kulli and fasluki is a femanine gender, can someone please explain to me how? is there any book on this type of grammer.
Because I have already posted her another example from the Quran with the exact same subject matter addressed in the masculine.. at this point, she is entitled to her opinion, I can't force it down her throat even in example form from the same book she is using to assert the opposite..
peace
She did say masculine plural can be applied, however its rarely used compared to feminine singular.
So one could say a specific gender is used for a reason in the ants verse rather than in the bees verse.
Last edited by Whatsthepoint; 08-07-2008 at 10:39 PM.
She did say masculine plural can be applied, however its rarely used compared to feminine singular.
So one could believe a specific gender is used for a reason in the ants verse rather than in the bees verse.
and that is her opinion, which only sprang up when I made an opposite verse of what she claims visible to her.. one should in the very least be consistent?
The very Arabic she used was incorrect and disjointed, I wouldn't tackle something as fundamental as the Quran itself which is the reference point for all Arabic grammar, considering Arabic isn't even her first language.
I have no reason to believe that God addresses a subset of bees in the feminine and a subset of ants in the masculine were it not to highlight their genders, if the rules applied to all then you wouldn't have three articles addressing the female worker bees given that there are male bees, and by the same token the ants would be addressed in the exact feminine manner, where it would be idkhouli maskankoum.
So with this my part with this topic has come to an end
peace
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
and that is her opinion, which only sprang up when I made an opposite verse of what she claims visible to her.. one should in the very least be consistent?
In fact, she mentioned that in her first or second post, I'm not sure which one.
I have no reason to believe that God addresses a subset of bees in the feminine and a subset of ants in the masculine were it not to highlight their genders, if the rules applied to all then you wouldn't have three articles addressing the female worker bees given that there are male bees, and by the same token the ants would be addressed in the exact feminine manner, where it would be idkhouli maskankoum.
You don't know if the bees are adressed in feminine singular, they could be adressed in plural, the grammar is the same according to Fayem you can't prove what the author though, can you? and besides, there's the multiple bellies issue.
In fact, she mentioned that in her first or second post, I'm not sure which one.
You don't know if the bees are adressed in feminine singular, they could be adressed in plural, the grammar is the same according to Fayem you can't prove what the author though, can you? and besides, there's the multiple bellies issue.
They are addressed in the feminine not once but three times, but you are welcome to her opinion..
peace
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
They are addressed in the feminine not once but three times, but you are welcome to her opinion..
peace
So what, that seems to be the common rule. Other non-intelligent nouns, animals too, are adressed in the feminine in the Quran.
I know that's her opinion, but what you claim to be true is an opinion just as well. Hers is backed by some more grammar I guess..
I provided grammar too from the same book, addressing the same subject in the opposite manner that she claims!
peace
You said the verbs and the rest are feminine, which Faye mentioned in her first post.
You claim the verse addresses a single feminine bee, which is grammatically possible, however you haven't proven Faye's option (feminine singular denoting plural) is wrong. And above all, you haven't addressed the multiple bellies issue, which is the core of Faye's argument.
You said the verbs and the rest are feminine, which Faye mentioned in her first post.
I haven't followed most of fays posts, on the account I have no interest save where she sees fit to interpret religious text!
You claim the verse addresses a single feminine bee, which is grammatically possible, however you haven't proven Faye's option (feminine singular denoting plural) is wrong. And above all, you haven't addressed the multiple bellies issue, which is the core of Faye's argument.
.
I stated the verse addresses the bee in the feminine period ! botoniha(bellies) is in the feminine plural and it is indeed in the female worker bee's belly that honey is made, otherwise it would be bitonihim (masculine plural) but prior to that account, there is itakhizhi, and aslouki etc, and have given an example from the same book addressing exact similar subject (ants) in the mascuiline plural if her rules applied, why to one subset and not the other? there are exceptions she says, well both 'exceptions' were correct in both those two accounts, so there really is no point going over it ad nauseam.. .
at this stage and really for the last time as I detest going over the same thing over and over, you are free to take her account of it, and learn arabic as well as interpret exegesis in accordance to her beliefs!
I am done with this
peace
Last edited by جوري; 08-08-2008 at 05:48 PM.
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I stated the verse addresses the bee in the feminine period !not singular or otherwise, botonihim (bellies) is in the feminine but prior to that there is itakhizhi, and aslouki etc, and have given an example from the same book addressing exact similar subject (ants) in the mascuiline.
edit.
Yeah, but she gave you an other examples of feminine singular being used for plural masculine objects or animals.
Do you see that if you translate the feminine singular into feminine singular the verse doesn't make sense, as the bee would have multiple bellies.
Last edited by Whatsthepoint; 08-08-2008 at 06:02 PM.
I stated the verse addresses the bee in the feminine period ! botoniha(bellies) is in the feminine plural
You sure about this. According to Faye, the belly itself is masculine gender, botoniha on the other hand means her (or their) bellies, if that's what you were trying to say.
and it is indeed in the female worker bee's belly that honey is made, otherwise it would be bitonihim (masculine plural)
Judging from the above, I guess bitonihim means their (masculine) bellies?
Or is it that nouns in arabic can change gender?
but prior to that account, there is itakhizhi, and aslouki etc, and have given an example from the same book addressing exact similar subject (ants) in the mascuiline plural if her rules applied, why to one subset and not the other? there are exceptions she says, well both 'exceptions' were correct in both those two accounts, so there really is no point going over it ad nauseam.. .
As she said, both uses are allowed, one is more common (feminine singular denoting plural) and one is less common (plural denoting plural..).
Yes both are correct, but if only one causes issues, multiple bellies issue that is.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here, are you suggesting that the bee in the verse is feminine but not singular?
Yeah, but she gave you an other examples of feminine singular being used for plural masculine objects or animals.
Do you see that if you translate the feminine singular into feminine singular the verse doesn't make sense, as the bee would have multiple bellies.
1-she gave examples of inanimate objects..
2-bees indeed have two stomachs, I am glad you brought it up! as it is another miracle of the Quran, that was discovered only recently!
Bees have two stomachs - one stomach for eating and the other special stomach is for storing nectar collected from flowers or water so that they can carry it back to their hive.
2-bees indeed have two stomachs, I am glad you brought it up! as it is another miracle of the Quran, that was discovered only recently!
Bees have two stomachs - one stomach for eating and the other special stomach is for storing nectar collected from flowers or water so that they can carry it back to their hive.
Kay already brought that up.
The bellies in the verse are plural not dual, so this doesn't solve anything.
And besides, belly is not the same as stomach!
Last edited by Whatsthepoint; 08-08-2008 at 06:13 PM.
lol.. I can't tell you how that made me laugh!
You are just splitting hair--- but thank you..
cheers
Why am I splitting hair? Arabic's got dual, bees have got two stomachs, so dual should be used, especially if you consider the claims about the literary perfection of the books.
And as I said, belly doesn't even equal stomach so you cant use that.
Why am I splitting hair? Arabic's got dual, bees have got two stomachs, so dual should be used, especially if you consider the claims about the literary perfection of the books.
And as I said, belly doesn't even equal stomach so you cant use that.
perhaps you or fay can you give me an example of how dual would be used in this case since you both have a strong grip on grammar?
and belly is used to denote stomach!
cheers
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
perhaps you or fay can you give me an example of how dual would be used in this case since you both have a strong grip on grammar?
and belly is used to denote stomach!
cheers
Ok, this is gonna take some time though and I'm going to the movies, will get back to it.
perhaps you or fay can you give me an example of how dual would be used in this case since you both have a strong grip on grammar?
and belly is used to denote stomach!
cheers
Would "batnayha" work? It doesn't really sound right, though..
oh, and since the plural is used, perhaps the third "belly" could be understood as its inside, its "batin", can't think of the exact translation for it right now.
Would "batnayha" work? It doesn't really sound right, though..
oh, and since the plural is used, perhaps the third "belly" could be understood as its inside, its "batin", can't think of the exact translation for it right now.
No it doesn't sound right as there is no such word.. and 'batin' changes the meaning to 'hidden' not inside, which renders the whole thing nonsensical...
we can't play around with Quranic text to amuse someone who wishes to split hair...astghfor Allah!
Text without context is pretext If your opponent is of choleric temperament, seek to irritate him
I haven't followed most of fays posts, on the account I have no interest save where she sees fit to interpret religious text!
I don't think that I am re-interpreting religious texts. I am just showing the grammar that goes behind all the translations I found. Every single one of them said their bellies, translating a feminine singular pronoun as a plural pronoun. And none of them translated the previous verbs with female bee. And none of the tafaseer I found (Ma'arif ul-Quran, Tafseer ul-Muneer, Tafseer al-Uthmani) even mentioned the female bee issue, or the shift in grammatical tense, indicating that they thought there had been no shift (as in, the tense remained plural throughout the verbs, pronouns, everything).
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I stated the verse addresses the bee in the feminine period ! botoniha(bellies) is in the feminine plural and it is indeed in the female worker bee's belly that honey is made, otherwise it would be bitonihim (masculine plural) but prior to that account, there is itakhizhi, and aslouki etc, and have given an example from the same book addressing exact similar subject (ants) in the mascuiline plural if her rules applied, why to one subset and not the other? there are exceptions she says, well both 'exceptions' were correct in both those two accounts, so there really is no point going over it ad nauseam.. .
Butoon is masculine plural.
Ha is singular feminine, not plural feminine. Plural feminine is Hunna.
So which of these do you think is plural feminine?
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
at this stage and really for the last time as I detest going over the same thing over and over, you are free to take her account of it, and learn arabic as well as interpret exegesis in accordance to her beliefs!
Like I said, I'm not interpreting. But I believe some other people may have been when they came up with this 'miracle'.
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