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أحمد
03-10-2005, 05:30 PM
:-[ Is it possible to prove miracles scientifically, even though the matter is of suspending of the laws of nature?

:) The Best example of a miracle I can think of; that I think maybe proveable scientifically is the Quran, because; firstly you look at its perfection. It is beyond anything of what the capacity of the Human Brain can imitate let alone produce something in the likeness. The other thing is the protection prophecy in the Quran Surah al-Furqan 25: verse 9. The Quran remains protected even this very day; after fourteen centuries.

:shade: Please FEEL FREE to add your comments and give of your valuable knowledge in a great cause. ;)

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-10-2005, 08:38 PM
Miracles, by definition, are breaks in scientific laws. Things which cannot be explained by our scientific understanding, or more specifically, things which CONTRADICT established scientifc laws.

Nevertheless, we can use science to analyze WHERE and HOW the miracle took place. But to be a miracle, it must be beyond scientific explanation.

For example, all that masajid were left standing after the tsunami, while everything else was destroyed. Even some rickety wooden masajid that were so poorly built. How can we explain this? It is beyond our scientific understanding.

Howevre, we can use science to undertstand the nature of the miracle by investigating the force of the tsunami, the durability of materials in the masajid, etc. This helps us understand what is so miraculous about the miracle.

:W:
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Uthman
03-10-2005, 10:02 PM
:sl:

About the miracle of the Qur'an, how is this scientifically proven? A miracle it certainly is but how can science prove it?

:w:
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Chuck
03-10-2005, 10:43 PM
About the miracle of the Qur'an, how is this scientifically proven? A miracle it certainly is but how can science prove it?
Only by irrefutable observation.
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yoshiyahu
03-10-2005, 11:13 PM
Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
:-[ Is it possible to prove miracles scientifically, even though the matter is of suspending of the laws of nature?
Right now it is most likely not possible. Yes, I believe that miracles could perhaps be explained scientifically, but only when G-d grants us such knowledge.

Originally Posted by Ahmed Waheed
The Quran remains protected even this very day; after fourteen centuries.
And the Torah does as well :D

That brings up another thought. Could the continued existance of Jews, Christians, and Muslims - despite all the forces that have attempted to obliterate them (The Romans used to feed Christians & Jews to the Lions, the Holocaust, etc.) - have survived since their inception. Could this be a proof of G-d?
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yoshiyahu
03-10-2005, 11:15 PM
Miracles, by definition, are breaks in scientific laws. Things which cannot be explained by our scientific understanding, or more specifically, things which CONTRADICT established scientifc laws.
I would tend to disagree, though slightly.

In my view, Miracles are things that seem to break the natural laws; However, they are simply so advanced that we cannot possibly understand them. If someone would to attempt to explain it to us, it would be like us trying to explain Calculus to a person from 3000 years ago.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-10-2005, 11:17 PM
Originally Posted by Yoshiyahu
That brings up another thought. Could the continued existance of Jews, Christians, and Muslims - despite all the forces that have attempted to obliterate them (The Romans used to feed Christians & Jews to the Lions, the Holocaust, etc.) - have survived since their inception. Could this be a proof of G-d?
That's an interesting idea, yoshiyahu. It is similar to an argument that I have used. If we examine civilizations throughout History we will find that no matter how isolated they are chronologically or geographically, there has always been a dominant belief in God. What's even more amazing is that even in the polytheistic civilizations, there is still ONE God in supreme control. eg. Zeus for the Greeks

This confirms the Islamic belief that God has sent Prophets to humanity to constantly bring them on the right track after deviation.

:w:
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Chuck
03-10-2005, 11:37 PM
That brings up another thought. Could the continued existance of Jews, Christians, and Muslims - despite all the forces that have attempted to obliterate them (The Romans used to feed Christians & Jews to the Lions, the Holocaust, etc.) - have survived since their inception. Could this be a proof of G-d?
Well, IMO, the best proof is that Vedas, Torah, Bible, and Quran have similar concepts for example, afterlife, heaven, and hell. Check out Dr. Naik's commentary on this.
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Eddi
03-11-2005, 10:26 AM
:sl:

a very nice dialogue. keep it running.

:w:
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root
03-11-2005, 10:57 AM
I don't think stating a Miracle being "beyond Scientific proof" or beyond the laws of nature. In fact even miracles cannot break natural laws.

I personally consider a mathmatical inprobability, as a "Miracle", explained by the concept that God works in mysterious ways. Miracles cannot break natural laws, but can seem to be within a Chaotic arena of life. A game of chance..............
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أحمد
03-11-2005, 03:34 PM
:sl:

:zip: I was actually under the impression that the definition of the word miracle is: something that breaks the laws of nature. :D Alhamdulillah, now here comes a contradiction to that definition. This should be interesting . . . Insha-Allah . . . ;)

:w:
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أحمد
03-11-2005, 04:54 PM
:sl:

:applaud: Jazak-Allah brother. Now that's some solid evidence for miracles . . . Alhamdulillah . . . :D :D :D :D :D :shade:

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-11-2005, 09:36 PM
:sl:
Sorry I missed this post.
Originally Posted by yoshiyahu
I would tend to disagree, though slightly.

In my view, Miracles are things that seem to break the natural laws; However, they are simply so advanced that we cannot possibly understand them. If someone would to attempt to explain it to us, it would be like us trying to explain Calculus to a person from 3000 years ago.
I'm not sure how this claim works. To say that miracles are only beyond our understanding is to say that historical miracles will eventually not be miraculous.

eg. Prophet Moses split the sea with his stick. If we find out that this stick was made of a special element that reacts with the water in this manner, then it is no longer a miracle.

Originally Posted by root
In fact even miracles cannot break scientific laws
God created the laws which govern the universe. These scientific laws were created to give predictability to the regular functions of the universe. But God is not bound by His own laws. He demonstrates His power and the Truth to us by reversing the laws of science. That is known as a miracle.

If you say that a miracle is just a high improbability, you have removed the divine nature of that miracle. In other words, you believe that it is possible for it to hapen without God.

Then it is no longer within the religious concept of miracles.

:w:
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h1jabi_sista
03-11-2005, 09:53 PM
i would highly recommend harun yayha's books on mircles. :thumbs_up

mashallah he explains it sooo well with facts, proofs and evidence relating with science. :)
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Chuck
03-11-2005, 09:56 PM
I'm not sure how this claim works. To say that miracles are only beyond our understanding is to say that historical miracles will eventually not be miraculous.

eg. Prophet Moses split the sea with his stick. If we find out that this stick was made of a special element that reacts with the water in this manner, then it is no longer a miracle.
Miracles could be both, thus may have a wider definition. Some could be time or civilization dependent other could be independent. Or they could lead to more discoveries, for example, Prophet Solomon’s (pbuh) use of wind for travel, these days jets use wind too for propulsion. However, Moses stick turning into python and Jesus raising the dead, will stay as time independent Miracles.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-11-2005, 10:07 PM
I agree with your point. Some can be further understood with science.

:w:
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Ansar Al-'Adl
03-11-2005, 10:12 PM
Originally Posted by h1jabi_sista
i would highly recommend harun yayha's books on mircles. :thumbs_up

mashallah he explains it sooo well with facts, proofs and evidence relating with science. :)
Which one?

I searched here:
http://harunyahya.com/m_book_index.php

But I couldn't find it.
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Eddi
03-12-2005, 12:08 PM
I Need Rep Power, Can't Give Out Any Points At The Moment!
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أحمد
03-12-2005, 01:08 PM
:sl:

:D And I've donated you 30; now that should make some difference Insha-Allah . . . :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :shade:

:w:
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أحمد
03-12-2005, 01:13 PM
:sl:

:D Anyway; back to the topic . . . Insha-Allah . . . :p :p :p :p :p

There are many different views on miracles; where, when, why, how and what happens (nature of a miracle). A miracle is an act of intervention of God; when he intervene's in his creation. Now that's a standard definition used today along with: an act of suspending the laws of nature; to cause an unusuall activity, which cannot be explained by means of scientific knowledge, therefore it it beyond the grasp of science.

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;)

:w:
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أحمد
03-12-2005, 01:23 PM
:sl:

:brother: Also many things still that scientist don't know about, that are in the Quran . . . :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :applaud: :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :shade: :shade: :shade: :shade: :shade: :shade: :p :p :p :p :p :p ;) ;) ;) ;) ;)

:w:
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h1jabi_sista
03-12-2005, 02:46 PM
all those smilieez are making me dizzy!!!!!! :p
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أحمد
03-12-2005, 06:07 PM
:sl:

:D :D :D :D :D :D :D Indeed :p :p :p :p :p :p :p :p ;)

:shade: Anyway, miracles are as I said before; are unusual activities, in which the laws of nature are suspended. In the case of the Quran. It is human nature to update / upgrade things. Alhamdulillah; the Quran is beyond all that, so even scientifically it may be classified as of a miraculous nature. In Surah al-Maaidah 5: verse 3, Allah says that today we have perfected (completed) your religion. Now the Quran tells us that the way of life has been completed and also how. Please also refer to Surah Aal-Imran 3: verses 31, 32, 110, 132, 137 and Surah an-Nisaa 4: verse 59. Examples have been given in the Quran as to how one should go about in living, who to follow and how to see and explore what has overcome those of the past. And also what to await in the future.

:shade: One of the deepest secrets from science; rewmains the reality of the science of time, which is penetrated by the Quran. Alhamdulillah . . . ;)

:w:
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h1jabi_sista
03-12-2005, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Hash
:sl:

In terms of the qur'aan, the miracle of the qur'aan is always 2 steps ahed of science. I mean, revelations and verses from the qur'aan, 1400 years ago are being discovered just recently by scientists etc.

:w:
subhanallah! thats soo true, for example the quran reveals about the expansion of the universe 1400 years ago and scientist have onli found this out recently.
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أحمد
03-15-2005, 05:59 PM
:sl:

:D Also about how rainfall takes place, and the purpose of mountains layers of heavens (atmospheres as well), and the secure sky (black holes and all the other things). And there are many other things we find in the Quran that scientist are just scratching the surface . . . :shade:

:w:
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........
06-27-2005, 10:05 PM
Miracles?

We hear so much about "miracles" today. But what are they really?

"The lame shall walk. The blind shall see. The leper shall be cured. The dead shall rise from the grave."

What do "experts" tell us about these miracles?

Some stories talk about people who "walk on water" or "fly through the air." Yet others tell us about crippled people who are suddenly cured while doctors stand by amazed at these impossible results. Still others would have us believe that certain people can predict the future or "read" people's minds.

Islam is clear on the subject of "miracles."

First of all we have to know that there is a difference between miracles and "unusual phenomenon" or strange signs. In Arabic, the language of the Quran, the word "muwajaza" would mean miracle; the word "karamat" would mean "small miracle or phenomenon"; and "ayah" would mean "sign" from Almighty God.

Miracles are used to demonstrate the authenticity of the prophets of Allah. But ordinary people do not have such abilities. Phenomenon can be experienced by anyone, but in particular to those who are really religious Muslims (followers of Islam). The Signs of Allah come in the mighty mysteries and other phenomenon are the things that happen that are totally unaccountable except by understanding the real truth of things.
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