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Malaikah
02-21-2008, 07:31 AM
:sl:

I think these clarify the issue very nicely...

From another forum:

but i'll just give some real examples which i have seen with my own eyes:

1 - Guy gets out of Rolls Royce (Yes, a Rolls Royce) at traffic light, and passes a note (probably with his phone number etc) into a taxi with a lone female sitting inside

2 - A bunch of shabab* in a Jeep wrangler harassing a lone female inside a taxi. honking their horns, and hooting etc., and following the car around everywhere. I should have rammed into that 4x4 and ruthlessly mowed them over like the scourge of the earth that they are.

now... Just imagine what would happen if lone women were driving...
*Shabab means young men.

Women Driving Is Not in Conflict With Religion: Scholars
Samir Al-Saadi, Arab News


JEDDAH, 21 February 2008 — A well-regarded Saudi religious scholar said that there is nothing in Islamic law that bans women from driving and that the fatwas issued in this regard are based on individual judgments.

“In principle women driving is permitted in Islam,” said Sheikh Abdul Mohsen Al-Obaikan, a member of the Kingdom’s Council of Senior Islamic Scholars.

The ban, he said, has to do with the social complications rather than the act itself. As an example, the sheikh referred to a fatwa from former Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdulaziz Bin-Baz that said it is permitted for women in rural areas to drive cars, but that they should be forbidden from driving in the cities where, as Al-Obaikan said, “youths (even) harass women accompanied by parents and drivers.

He said if certain issues are resolved, such as the problem of men’s behavior and traffic safety, then he sees no religiously motivated conflict with women driving.

Sheikh Mehsin Al-Awaji, another prominent religious scholar in the Kingdom, agreed. “No religious scholar is going to tell you differently,” he said. “But (the issue of) women driving comes as a ‘package’ and we need to fix the ‘package’ before making the decision (to allow women to drive).”

Expanding on the idea that allowing women to drive in Saudi Arabia comes with a “package” of issues, Al-Awaji said there needs to be Saudi women working as police officers, mechanics and other positions. The sheikh diminished the significance of women driving, saying that myriad social reforms have higher priority, even in the realm of empowering women or encouraging public participation in important social challenges.

Fawzeyah Al-Oyouni, a woman’s rights and human rights activist, said that most people agree that Islam doesn’t forbid women from driving. The problem, she says, is that the government isn’t moving fast enough to implement the necessary actions to open the way for a smooth transition toward allowing women to drive.

The Saudi government has pointed out that there is no law that states women cannot drive. “The Interior Ministry’s stand is clear on this,” said ministry spokesman Gen. Mansour Al-Turki.

But in reality women are occasionally arrested when found driving. Arab News reported several instances in recent years of situations where women have been stopped by authorities and detained for the infraction of driving a vehicle.

In a previous statement, Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques King Abdullah said that Saudi women would be permitted to drive someday.

Arab News asked 125 men what they thought of the issue. Ten men categorically opposed the idea; 36 men were fully in support of an unqualified lift on the social ban; and the rest would be OK with women driving with a few ground rules.

Most of the men who expressed reservations to an unqualified lift on the social ban — 80 of them — said they were concerned about safety due to the hazardous conditions on Saudi roads and lack of sufficient enforcement of traffic laws. Sixteen men expressed religious reservations; 21 men expressed financial reasons while eight expressed social concerns.

Four hundred Saudi and non-Saudi women were asked by Arab News about the subject. Out of this survey, Arab News found that 282 of these women would drive cars on their own, without a male guardian. Forty-four women said they would continue to use drivers. Thirty women said they would only drive with their male guardian in the car. Thirty-two women said they would drive with a relative in the vehicle. A dozen women said they opposed the idea of women driving.

Out of these women, 122 said they wouldn’t drive on Saudi roads due to safety concerns while 296 said they would have to see better enforcement of rules before they would feel safe driving. Seventy-two women said they’d rise to the challenge of driving in Saudi Arabia’s traffic.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...=21&m=2&y=2008
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snakelegs
02-21-2008, 08:38 AM
why are the saudis incapable of controlling men's behaviour and traffic safety?
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Al-Zaara
02-21-2008, 08:45 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
why are the saudis incapable of controlling men's behaviour and traffic safety?
My thoughts exactly.
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guyabano
02-21-2008, 09:14 AM
and how can you control a man's behavior?

Peace
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SirZubair
02-21-2008, 10:12 AM
Originally Posted by guyabano
and how can you control a man's behavior?

Peace
Educate them.

Puncture their tyres.

Whatever suits you.. :okay:
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MinAhlilHadeeth
02-21-2008, 10:26 AM
:salamext:


The ban, he said, has to do with the social complications rather than the act itself. As an example, the sheikh referred to a fatwa from former Grand Mufti Sheikh Abdulaziz Bin-Baz that said it is permitted for women in rural areas to drive cars, but that they should be forbidden from driving in the cities where, as Al-Obaikan said, “youths (even) harass women accompanied by parents and drivers.
BaarakAllaahu feekum, ukhtee. May Allaah preserve ash-Shaykh 'Ubaykaan and have mercy upon Shaykhuna Ibnu Baaz, ameen.
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Malaikah
02-21-2008, 10:38 AM
:sl:

^Ameen.

Do you know anything about the shaykh quoted in the article, sis? If so, can you tell us a little about him?
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MinAhlilHadeeth
02-21-2008, 10:56 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

^Ameen.

Do you know anything about the shaykh quoted in the article, sis? If so, can you tell us a little about him?
Shaykh ‘Abdul-Muhsin Ibn Naasir Aali-‘Ubaykaan, may Allaah preserve him, is a Saudi Scholar, and was born in 1933. Shaykh 'Ubaykaan graduated from the Faculty of Sharee'ah at Al-Imam Muhammad Ibn Saud Islamic University in 1960. He went on to complete a masters degree and a doctorate from the same faculty, specializing in Islamic Fiqh. He is a member of Saudi's Council of Senior Scholars, if I am not mistaken.

Here is his website:
http://www.obaykan.com/

It doesn't seem to be working for me though.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-21-2008, 11:40 AM
Originally Posted by guyabano
And how can you control a man's behavior?

Peace
Geting whipped should be a deterrent in itself, dont'cha fink . :okay:

*Makes whip sound
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crayon
02-21-2008, 12:09 PM
So because their men are morons, the women have to suffer?
I'm sorry, but that's just stupid.

I live here, and the ban on women driving makes life difficult. I can't do anything or go anywhere until my dad comes home from work at night, and he's at work all day, when he comes home, he wants to relax, so I don't like asking him to drive me somewhere. His whole weekend is consumed with driving my brothers and I to places, buying groceries, taking us to doctor's appointments, etc.

Also, women being unable to drive causes another HUGE negative factor here. Mostly all 14, 15, 16 year old guys drive without a license, so they can take their mothers and sisters out. My brother is 14, and all his friends drive (he doesn't), have their own car, everything. They never take driving classes, they don't have a license, and drive like maniacs. I personally know 3 people who have been killed in car accidents caused by underage drivers driving at high speeds. And that's just the people that died, I know about half a dozen others who were seriously injured. And the *******s aren't even sentenced properly. They bribe their way out of punishment, or are given a few months. It disgusts me.

The new king is thinking of allowing women to drive, with certain conditions at first, then normally. If we still live here when that happens, I doubt my mom will want to drive because of all the reasons mentioned in the article. I wouldn't want to drive on the same streets as the lunatics.

So the driving issue in Saudi isn't about women driving or not, it's about the underage driving, the reckless driving, and the crap system that lets all the murders loose.
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Malaikah
02-21-2008, 12:25 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
So because their men are morons, the women have to suffer?
I'm sorry, but that's just stupid.
:sl:

No it isn't. It isn't about suffering, it is about protection and safety.

You just admitted yourself that you "wouldn't want to drive on the same streets as the lunatics".

On one hand it is okay for you to say that you won't drive because of the lunatics but on the other hand it is stupid to stop women from driving because of morons?

You're contradicting yourself... :-\
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AvarAllahNoor
02-21-2008, 12:43 PM
Take the men off the roads :P
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crayon
02-21-2008, 12:45 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
:sl:

No it isn't. It isn't about suffering, it is about protection and safety.

You just admitted yourself that you "wouldn't want to drive on the same streets as the lunatics".

On one hand it is okay for you to say that you won't drive because of the lunatics but on the other hand it is stupid to stop women from driving because of morons?

You're contradicting yourself... :-\
They should let women make their own decisions. I personally wouldn't want to drive here, but other women may. It's not their right to decide for us.
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Malaikah
02-21-2008, 12:54 PM
I would be inclined to disagree - they have the duty to protect society as a whole, and if that means, in their perspective, that the lesser evil here to forbid women in cities driving then so be it.

I mean doesn't it remind you of hijab, in a way? Allah says in the Quran, (in words to the effect of) that we (the women) are to cover up so that we don't get annoyed/harassed by the men... Allah never gave us the option that if we don't mind being harassed we can stop wearing hijab...

I'm not saying that these two cases are analogous, but I'm just saying, maybe we should think outside the box a little... :)
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MinAhlilHadeeth
02-21-2008, 01:02 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
They should let women make their own decisions. I personally wouldn't want to drive here, but other women may. It's not their right to decide for us.
Actually, it is the right of the Govt. to judge what is the greater good for society. It's silly to let everyone decide what's right for themselves. Remember the hadeeth of the Messenger, salAllahu `alayhi wa sallam, recorded in the Saheeh, wherein he gave a parable of the hudood, or regulations of Allaah, and he explained that by a ship with different levels. The people on the lowest level wanted to get water and some of them suggested that rather than going up and down all of the time, and bothering everyone on the level above them, it would be better that they simply make a hole in the side of the ship so they can get their water.

And as he, salAllahu `alayhi wa sallam, said, if the others do not stop them, they will all perish.

So, the rulers should not let people decide what's right or wrong for themselves, rather they should try to establish that which is best for society, to the best of their Judgement, under the guidance of the Scholars. Allaahu A'lam.
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------
02-21-2008, 01:11 PM
:salamext:

WOMEN ARE NOT ALLOWED OT DRIVE IN SAUDI?!?!

There go my plans to move there... - I cant live without driving!!! :ooh:
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Malaikah
02-21-2008, 01:16 PM
:sl:

lol you seriously didn't know that sis?

Don't despair, they are planning to lift the law apparently...
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------
02-21-2008, 01:21 PM
:salamext:

Inshaa Allaah they better!

Come to think of it.... I was wondering what was so weird when I went Umrah lol.... I never noticed... :ooh:
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Isambard
02-21-2008, 01:49 PM
They should stop-gag all the women in Saudi.

Think of the logic behind it! A woman may say something that may be overheard by a passerby and maybe taken as an insult of an advance (in his mind). Then the woman is in trouble!

For the betterment and safety of society, women in Saudi should be gagged.
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------
02-21-2008, 01:51 PM
:salamext:

^ What a shocking suggestion!!! :ooh:
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czgibson
02-21-2008, 01:54 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:

^ What a shocking suggestion!!! :ooh:
Almost as shocking as not allowing women to drive, isn't it?

Peace
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Malaikah
02-21-2008, 01:56 PM
Or we could do the world a favour and gag Isambard and save us all from his sarcasm and illogical exaggerations.
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crayon
02-21-2008, 02:04 PM
You guys are right, sisters Malaikah and Faizah, the government does have to protect it's citizens. But also, in my opinion, their lack of proper law enforcement when it comes to young teenage boys driving without a license, speeding men killing whole families and not being held accountable for it, etc. will harm society just the same, if not worse. One of the problems in this country is they focus too much on small aspects of something, and totally ignore other much more important aspects.

I apologize if I'm coming off as aggressive, but this topic is such a huge issue for me, I've seen the lives of so many people around me destroyed because of driving here, I can't help going overboard.
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Malaikah
02-21-2008, 02:07 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
But also, in my opinion, their lack of proper law enforcement when it comes to young teenage boys driving without a license, speeding men killing whole families and not being held accountable for it, etc. will harm society just the same, if not worse.
Well, of course, I agree!
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S_87
02-21-2008, 02:28 PM
i expect accidents to multiply by loads.

men harass women who are out even with their husbands, can you imagine what theyd do if they saw women behind the wheel? they sure wouldnt be watching the roads
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Al-Zaara
02-21-2008, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by amani
i expect accidents to multiply by loads.

men harass women who are out even with their husbands, can you imagine what theyd do if they saw women behind the wheel? they sure wouldnt be watching the roads
That's really sad. Many times Saudi Arabia is glorified to be a very good Islamic place, but one of the most important aspects, like adaab and how women are treated in Islam, is obviously not much cared there, it's just... Sad. I can understand the law now, when everyone explains why it's enforced but I lack to understand how this Islamic country has let it go so far. :-\

InshaAllah it will become better in time.
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Isambard
02-21-2008, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Or we could do the world a favour and gag Isambard and save us all from his sarcasm and illogical exaggerations.
Please tell me how it is illogical. Im simply following your reasoning.

PS. I take the Saudis ahvent discovered the magic of roll-up windows. Perhaps someday, this technological marvel will reach their side of the world:'(
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crayon
02-21-2008, 02:58 PM
Yeah, because we all walk around in a cylindrical glass box with roll up windows. These guys don't just stop being jerks when they leave their car. And they can harm women in other ways, if they intimidate them by following them around, or driving too close or too fast to them.
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Isambard
02-21-2008, 03:04 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Yeah, because we all walk around in a cylindrical glass box with roll up windows. These guys don't just stop being jerks when they leave their car. And they can harm women in other ways, if they intimidate them by following them around, or driving too close or too fast to them.
For a country with so much security (including a religious police), they seem to be grossly inefficent at protecting folk:rolleyes:
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MinAhlilHadeeth
02-21-2008, 03:10 PM
:salamext: and greetings,

If this turns in to yet another one of those threads where Saudi Arabia is repeatedly mocked, it will inevitably be closed. I'm sure we all have better things to do with our time than making asinine and unapprised remarks about Saudi.
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crayon
02-21-2008, 03:23 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
One of the problems in this country is they focus too much on small aspects of something, and totally ignore other much more important aspects.
Like I said before, they worry too much about relatively insignificant things, while forgetting about the actual problems with society.
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Malaikah
02-22-2008, 01:01 AM
Originally Posted by Isambard
Please tell me how it is illogical. Im simply following your reasoning.
Because men harassing girls in cars (even when they are not alone) is COMMON! Men harassing women for a word they accidentally over heard is not.

PS. I take the Saudis ahvent discovered the magic of roll-up windows. Perhaps someday, this technological marvel will reach their side of the world:'(
Welcome to the real world. :rolleyes:
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snakelegs
02-22-2008, 01:10 AM
question: because makka and medinah are located there, is it forbidden to criticize saudi arabia and its government like one would any other country?
do they make stupid mistakes and do stupid things like other countries, or do they have some kind of immunity?
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FatimaAsSideqah
02-22-2008, 01:12 AM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Saudi Arabia well couldn’t understand or appreciate the reasoning against women driving. Saudis and residents who are familiar with the issue cite logistical and practical problems and concerns. No one claims the ban is Islamic. In Prophet’s (peace be upon him) time, women rode their horses and camels. In other Islamic countries, women didn’t have to compromise their modest dress code to drive. And they drive as well as men, if not better and safer.

A suggestion would be to fill the streets with competent, well-trained and prepared police, and have them clean up the act on the streets here. Maybe after a few months of over ticketing and tight restrictions you may have a situation where women will feel comfortable driving. You will also have to have driving schools for women and then, maybe, the country can conceptualize driving for women.

Another thing that needs to change is the attitude some men have toward women in this country. If the laws are there to make women feel more comfortable when in public then they are retroactive.

Sister Fatima
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Malaikah
02-22-2008, 01:28 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
question: because makka and medinah are located there, is it forbidden to criticize saudi arabia and its government like one would any other country?
No.

The one reason I am getting 'defensive' is because I know many people (mostly women) who live/lived in Saudi and they have all told me that the ban is needed, and that the society isn't ready for the change yet.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-22-2008, 12:47 PM
Well shouldn't they stop these few individuls from doing such things (I presume it's only a few select men, or are they all unable to control their sexual desires?)

Why should women (or men) suffer for the acts of a few!

*Wonders if this post wll be deleted as previous one was*
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IslamiCompare
02-22-2008, 02:32 PM
Interesting thread. I've always wondered about this ban in Saudi Arabia. Based on this thread, and this thread alone, I can only surmise that the problems are inherently linked to the lack of discipline of men.

There are crazy drivers across the whole world, and I've seen a lot of dodgy traffic and driving on my travels. This doesn't mean that one gender is banned from driving to ease the casualties on the road. But if the root cause is the behaviour of men, then that is what should be addressed. Glad to hear that the Saudi government is at least considering changing the ban on women mashallah.

islamicompare
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------
02-22-2008, 02:40 PM
:salamext:

Why should women (or men) suffer for the acts of a few!
You have sort of got a point there... But hey, when ur there... thats when u realise its for the best! :)
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crayon
02-22-2008, 02:47 PM
Originally Posted by IslamiCompare
But if the root cause is the behaviour of men, then that is what should be addressed.

Exactly.
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Malaikah
02-23-2008, 11:17 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Why should women (or men) suffer for the acts of a few!
Because it isn't a 'few'... it is a lot!
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AvarAllahNoor
02-23-2008, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Because it isn't a 'few'... it is a lot!
Are they not dealt with? I thought death or whipping were a deterrent? Obviously not working! - It's like in the UK, if men get rowdy & they tell the women to stay indoors and not venture outside. You see that happening? lol there would be riots all over the joint.

Filter these animals out and deal with them in such a way, they'll never sexually harass a woman again!
:raging: :raging: :raging: :raging:
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crayon
02-23-2008, 02:13 PM
But, see, the thing is, if there's a lion loose, you don't put the humans in a cage, you put the lion in the cage. The human is protected in both cases, but if you lock the human up, it's not fair to them.
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Isambard
02-23-2008, 07:59 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Because it isn't a 'few'... it is a lot!
I wonder if there is a positive correlation between segregation and men acting like asshats.
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guyabano
02-23-2008, 08:14 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Because men harassing girls in cars (even when they are not alone) is COMMON! Men harassing women for a word they accidentally over heard is not.

Welcome to the real world. :rolleyes:
Well, it seems you live on the wrong place. Where I live, nearby all men are gentlemen and most women also drive, even alone.
And even better, most bus drivers in public are women. What you say about men haressing women in cars are just third world countries.

This is the real world too ! Coexistance in traffic between men and women exist, you just have to come out of your cocoon

Peace
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SirZubair
02-23-2008, 08:16 PM
Woman are only good at driving 1 thing.

You are wondering "What might that be?",.. right?

..Women are only good at driving men crazy..

:shade:

* Ducks *
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S_87
02-23-2008, 08:36 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Are they not dealt with? I thought death or whipping were a deterrent? Obviously not working! - It's like in the UK, if men get rowdy & they tell the women to stay indoors and not venture outside. You see that happening? lol there would be riots all over the joint.

Filter these animals out and deal with them in such a way, they'll never sexually harass a woman again!
:raging: :raging: :raging: :raging:
the same reasoning is like saying - not everyones gonna be fornicating all over the places so let men and women go places secluded.
all men are not going to molest women but we all are commanded to cover. etc etc
in islam all are protected and all means to what is wrong is barred.
and so for that country with the way it is, theres a law.


In Prophet’s (peace be upon him) time, women rode their horses and camels.
with all due respect this is a totally different issue and not comparable. :?
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Malaikah
02-24-2008, 03:35 AM
Originally Posted by crayon
But, see, the thing is, if there's a lion loose, you don't put the humans in a cage, you put the lion in the cage. The human is protected in both cases, but if you lock the human up, it's not fair to them.
Actually the humans are locked up (i.e. run to safety) until the lion is taken care off.. your analogy doesn't work...

Originally Posted by guyabano
Well, it seems you live on the wrong place.
What does where I live, or where you live, have to do with anything? We're talking about Saudi Arabia!
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snakelegs
02-24-2008, 03:39 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
No.

The one reason I am getting 'defensive' is because I know many people (mostly women) who live/lived in Saudi and they have all told me that the ban is needed, and that the society isn't ready for the change yet.
ok. it is a tendency i have noticed before in other threads about KSA.
i still don't understand why the saudis cannot control the behavior of men. what are the religious police for?
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north_malaysian
02-24-2008, 03:51 AM
Saudis on the road:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hwdZl...eature=related
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S_87
02-24-2008, 12:31 PM
:sl:
^^^^ loooooooooool
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crayon
02-24-2008, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Actually the humans are locked up (i.e. run to safety) until the lion is taken care off.. your analogy doesn't work...
Okay, fine, the humans run to safety. Do they never leave their houses now? They do, but only when the lion is taken care of, right? The problem is they're not trying to control the lion!! Nothing is being done to stop the men from being idiots! Or if they do decide to do something, it's once every 100 cases. It should be one of their TOP priorities, but it's not. Call me crazy, but in my opinion, stopping men from harassing women comes way before banning red flowers. And I'm sure many people agree.

So until they've figured out how to properly sort out their priorities, women are stuck immobile, and men continue being jerkwads.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-24-2008, 12:41 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
LOL - They should be on Top-Gear.
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Trumble
02-24-2008, 12:57 PM
Originally Posted by Faizah
Actually, it is the right of the Govt. to judge what is the greater good for society.
It's not a 'right', but it is a responsibility. The important bit, though, is "to judge what is the greater good for society". That will always be a matter of opinion, of course, but mine is that they are not doing that. The judgement is based on simple sexism, not "the greater good of society", whatever excuses may be attached to it.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-24-2008, 02:57 PM
Well what does it matter, they are allowing women to drive, so what's the point in bickering, when we don't have any say in the outcome! :D
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crayon
02-24-2008, 03:01 PM
Unfortunately nothing has been confirmed yet, it's just hearsay.
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xboxisdead
02-25-2008, 02:16 AM
I hate the way Saudi Arabia is running their country and the idiot men out there who is causing big problems. I remember when I was little and we had a horrible driver driving for us, we are heading from work to home when all of a sudden a car with young men driving in it started harassing my grandmother. She was wearing Hijab and they were driving fast and honking and screaming and laughing at her before they zoomed right after us. Other nights we saw driving and drinking and the car was zooming right and left very fast almost causing an accident. We reached home alive and safely, Al-hamdolilAllah. What are they doing drinking anyways? It is illegal to drink in Islam..Saudi Arabia is a non-stop hypocrisies.
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Malaikah
02-25-2008, 11:08 AM
^Bro, drinking is illegal in Saudi... There are hypocrites every where, it isn't a Saudi issue only.

Anyway, your example of men shamelessly harassing your grandmother really goes to show why the law was put in place in the first place.
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MinAhlilHadeeth
02-25-2008, 11:15 AM
:salamext:

This thread has not shown any promise of being beneficial. In fact, the only thing beneficial was the original post. JazakAllaah khayr sister Malaikah. I think this thread is only going to head in the direction of reviling Muslim rulers, which is not permissible (please see the methodology section), as well as speaking without knowledge.

:threadclo
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