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K.Venugopal
02-24-2008, 05:14 PM
It is said in the Quran that Allah created life. If Allah were to have created life, there would have been no life till He created it. If there was no life till He created it, Allah would have been dead till He created life. This is a logical absurdity. Can my brethren in Islam therefore please explain why it is said in the Quran that Allah created life?
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02-24-2008, 05:16 PM
:salamext:

Allah would have been dead till He created life.
Can u explain this in english?!
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-24-2008, 05:36 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:



Can u explain this in english?!
Creation means bringing forth something that does not exist. If Allah created life, then upto the point of his creation of life, there was no life. If there was no life, then how could Allah have had life? If Allah did not have life it meant He did not exist. How could a non-existent Allah create anything?
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Intisar
02-24-2008, 05:39 PM
Well Allaah has no beginning or end, so you can't branch him under the same things as you've branched life and creations. He is the creator who brought forth the Universe and his beings to dwell in only to worship him.
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K.Venugopal
02-24-2008, 05:47 PM
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
Well Allaah has no beginning or end, so you can't branch him under the same things as you've branched life and the creations. He is the creator who brought forth the Universe and his beings to dwell in only to worship him.
To be in a state of 'no beginning or end', that being must be alive. How could He who is alive always claim to have created life?
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Intisar
02-24-2008, 05:51 PM
You're stating that it doesn't make sense for a creator to have lived before there was anything living, but if Allaah has no beginning or end then that means he's eternal. He is ever-Living, has always lived, and will continue to live.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-24-2008, 06:07 PM
Allah is immortal. He is neither born and nor does He die. - Akal Purakh.

He is indescribable, inestimable, indubitable, infallible, intangible, imperishable, immutable, immortal, immaculate, immanent, unconquerable, unique, formless, fearless, deathless, timeless, ageless, compassionate, omnipresent and creator of all.
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Whatsthepoint
02-24-2008, 07:15 PM
If god created everything, did he create himself as well...

:blind:
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------
02-24-2008, 07:20 PM
:salamext:

Answer to ur question:


YouTube - who created the creator? islam answer creator


Media Tags are no longer supported
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MustafaMc
02-24-2008, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
It is said in the Quran that Allah created life. If Allah were to have created life, there would have been no life till He created it. If there was no life till He created it, Allah would have been dead till He created life. This is a logical absurdity. Can my brethren in Islam therefore please explain why it is said in the Quran that Allah created life?
To start with quote for me an ayat of the Qur'an or an authentic hadith that states "Allah created life".

Next define life. Well according to Merriam-Webster life is defined as: life 1 a: the quality that distinguishes a vital and functional being from a dead body b: a principle or force that is considered to underlie the distinctive quality of animate beings c: an organismic state characterized by capacity for metabolism, growth, reaction to stimuli, and reproduction

Allah created the creation including all living things. That is not to say that He created the "quality", the "principal", the "force" or the "organismic state" that characterizes living organisms and separates them from the dead.

Allah created man from clay and breathed of His Spirit (life) into him Quran 38:71 Behold when your Rabb said to the angels: "I am about to create a man from clay: 72 then when I have fashioned him and breathed of My spirit into him, kneel down and prostrate yourselves before him."

Likewise, Jesus fashioned a bird from clay and breathed life into it. Quran 5:110 ...How you were able to make the figure of a bird out of a clay, by My permission, how you breathed into it and changed it into a real bird, by My permission...
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- Qatada -
02-24-2008, 07:59 PM
:salamext:


Allah's attributes are different from human attributes, therefore to say that 'life' of humans is similar to how Allah is - is totally false. Since there is none like Him.


Therefore the statement itself is flawed, since the concept of living has a totally different context and meaning for God compared to humans and the rest of creation.



It's like saying - did Allah create speech? Yes, He created speech for humans, and mankind etc. However - His speech is not created since it is His attribute, and He did not create Himself - since He is Eternal without a beginning or end, and this is why He is Perfect, and this is why we take Him and believe in Him as God - since His Perfection implies His Lordship over His creatures who are dependant upon Him.
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guyabano
02-24-2008, 08:20 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If god created everything, did he create himself as well...

:blind:

Good question: Who created God then?
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Intisar
02-24-2008, 08:22 PM
No one created God, how can an absolute creator have a creator?
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Whatsthepoint
02-24-2008, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
No one created God, how can an absolute creator have a creator?
Yeah, yeah, I get hat.
But that makes it impossible for god to be the creator of all things.
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- Qatada -
02-24-2008, 08:27 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Good question: Who created God then?

He is Eternal without a beginning or end, and this is why He is Perfect, and this is why we take Him and believe in Him as God - since His Perfection implies His Lordship over His creatures who are dependant upon Him while He is dependant upon no other.
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Intisar
02-24-2008, 08:39 PM
He is absolute and supreme, the premise of ''creation'' and ''life'' is not the same for his beings as it is for him. He's the over-seer of all things. If he oversees all things, then that means he has knowledge of all things. He created everything, what is hidden and what is apparent to us. He knows what we reveal and conceal. In all aspects of the word, he is supreme.

''Lam yalid, walam yulad'' - He does not beget, nor is he begotten. (Surah Ikhlas, V:3).
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AvarAllahNoor
02-25-2008, 11:25 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If god created everything, did he create himself as well...

:blind:
Well If you knew what the defintion of GOD was, you'd answer your own question. Plus I've summed it up very well in my previous post. :smile:
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Muezzin
02-25-2008, 11:30 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
To be in a state of 'no beginning or end', that being must be alive.
To be alive is to have a beginning and an end. Therefore, if something has no beginning and no end, it cannot be said to be alive.

How could He who is alive always claim to have created life?
I see where you're going with this. I think this lies more in our understanding or misunderstanding of Allah's nature rather than His existence itself.

I don't think Allah is really a 'being' in the same way His creations are. I think of it more in terms of a... consciousness. That's the closest word I can think of, and it's still a little off.
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Mikayeel
02-25-2008, 11:42 AM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Good question: Who created God then?
U see if u go along that road and ask these type of questions, u could also continue asking who created that god and who created the one before him and so forth(infinity!)

Doesn't make sense, does it!

To make it easier on ur mind first accept that there is one god! (Nothing is before him, and nothing is after him!)
Don't get caught asking questions which will never have an answer to! Ur life will be a mess, because u going to end questioning stuff which will never be answered, NEVER!
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:12 PM
What's the islamic reply on this one:
God is not created, he did not create himself.
At least one thing in existence is not created (by god).
God is not the creator of all things.

The question itself arouses some new questions, which I'll try to do later..
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------
02-25-2008, 01:14 PM
:salamext:

God is not the creator of all things.
Are taking the mick?
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 01:19 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What's the islamic reply on this one:
God is not created, he did not create himself.
agreed

At least one thing in existence is not created (by god).
disagreed

God is not the creator of all things.

The question itself arouses some new questions, which I'll try to do later..
in order for something to be created it needs a creator. God never needed a creator and was never created.

stop confusing yourself young lad.
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czgibson
02-25-2008, 01:23 PM
Greetings,

Does anyone know why this thread is in the 'Introduce Yourself' section?

Peace
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guyabano
02-25-2008, 01:24 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
To make it easier on ur mind first accept that there is one god! (Nothing is before him, and nothing is after him!)
Don't get caught asking questions which will never have an answer to! Ur life will be a mess, because u going to end questioning stuff which will never be answered, NEVER!
Well, and here is the part, where our opinions split. I refuse to believe in something/someone whose existence has never been prooven.
Science/Evolution is something I can touch and proove, but existance of God, no.

In that case, my decision has been made.

Peace
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:25 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
agreed
disagreed
in order for something to be created it needs a creator. God never needed a creator and was never created.
The reply does not satisfy me, it confuses me even further.
God cannot be the creator of everything and at the same time not be created..
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 01:28 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
God cannot be the creator of everything and at the same time not be created..
do you not realise the difference between a creator and created?

EVERYTHING is created, and God is the CREATOR.


hope thats clear now :)
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:30 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
do you not realise the difference between a creator and created?

EVERYTHING is created, and God is the CREATOR.


hope thats clear now :)
God is a part of everything.
He is no created.
Not everything is created yb God.
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Abdul-Raouf
02-25-2008, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
It is said in the Quran that Allah created life. If Allah were to have created life, there would have been no life till He created it. If there was no life till He created it, Allah would have been dead till He created life. This is a logical absurdity. Can my brethren in Islam therefore please explain why it is said in the Quran that Allah created life?

Hi Venu ... me too from india... nice to meet u...

Welcome to LI...



Can u please explain me more about your logic behind that sentence....





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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 01:32 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
God is a part of everything.
thats a hindu belief.

He is no created.
agreed

Not everything is created yb God.
Disagreed, God created everything
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------
02-25-2008, 01:33 PM
:salamext:

^ Lol I think ur on something, ur going round in circles. @ whatsthepoint

Get with it!!

God is the Creator. If He is the CREATOR he does not need to be created.

He created everything.

Comprehende?!
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:38 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
thats a hindu belief.
I didn't mean it in that way, I know muslims believe he is above creation or soemthing liek that.
Let me rephrase it...
Everything is everything there is. God is. God is a part of everything.
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Ibn Al Aqwa
02-25-2008, 01:40 PM
When people begin trying to comprehend things they cannot, they begin confusing themselves and doubts are created. Them doubts are spurred by the shaytaan.

just thought id say that...Salaam...
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------
02-25-2008, 01:40 PM
:salamext:

^ No he's not.
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:42 PM
Originally Posted by -Ibn Al Aqwa-
When people begin trying to comprehend things they cannot, they begin confusing themselves and doubts are created. Them doubts are spurred by the shaytaan.

just thought id say that...Salaam...
Why is it fine use logic to prove the existence of god, the rightness of islam, the wrongness of all other religions....it seems human logic is fine until it creates confusion.
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 01:43 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Everything is everything there is.
ok i can accept that as long as you realise God created everything which there is.

God is.
if you mean he exists then yeah

God is a part of everything.
thats hindu belief, but if you mean he created everything, then yeah ! but you cant go up to a chair and think its God just because God created it
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:44 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:

^ No he's not.
Prove it.
Why god is not a part of everything there is?
everything is a category not the universe.
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:50 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
ok i can accept that as long as you realise God created everything which there is.
if you mean he exists then yeah
thats hindu belief, but if you mean he created everything, then yeah ! but you cant go up to a chair and think its God just because God created it
I think it's a christian belief as well, but that's not the point.
God is, whereas he does not exist...that's a long story.
I don't think you see where I'm getting at with everything. Eevrything is not the material word, the universe...it's a category, a group of everything that is, of everything that exists. God is, therefore he is an objext in that group. God is supposed to create everything, yet he did not create at elast one object in the category of everything.
You can say god created all created things or everything but himself etc. Whereas God created eevrything does not seem to be a valid statement.
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------
02-25-2008, 01:51 PM
:salamext:

Lol ur just tryna confuse us man.... take ur ideas where they're appreciated, coz they aren't here!
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:53 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:

Lol ur just tryna confuse us man.... take ur ideas where they're appreciated, coz they aren't here!
Fine..
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 01:54 PM
^ no sis his not confusing me at all, i just cant comprehend how he doesnt see the deep flaws in what his saying.


anyway, peace
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 01:55 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
You can say god created all created things or everything but himself etc. Whereas God created eevrything does not seem to be a valid statement.
God always was, is and always will be


God created everything and wasnt created.


God doesnt need to be a part of his creation.
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:57 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ no sis his not confusing me at all, i just cant comprehend how he doesnt see the deep flaws in what his saying.
Lol, the feeling is mutual.
I guess this is how all philosophical debates turn out to be.:D
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Roasted Cashew
02-25-2008, 01:58 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I didn't mean it in that way, I know muslims believe he is above creation or soemthing liek that.
Let me rephrase it...
Everything is everything there is. God is. God is a part of everything.
I get you. Guys, what he is trying to say is that his "Everything" also includes God. So if God was not created how come "Everything" is created by God. He is trying to play with words which is rather useless. Lets' rephrase it then "God created almost every single thing in this world" basically implying God didn't not create himself and nor was he created.

If somehow I miss you too, than I am sorry.
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 01:59 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
God always was, is and always will be
God created everything and wasnt created.
God doesnt need to be a part of his creation.
Yes, I took it into consideration.
Yes, I took it into consideration.
I am not talking about the creation, I am talking about everything.
Reread the last couple of arguments of mine..
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by hmmm5
I get you. Guys, what he is trying to say is that his "Everything" also includes God. So if God was not created how come "Everything" is created by God. He is trying to play with words which is rather useless. Lets' rephrase it then "God created almost every single thing in this world" basically implying God didn't not create himself and nor was he created.

If somehow I miss you too, than I am sorry.
No, you got it!
I don't think it is useless, logic is all about words.

The Quan says many times that Allah is the crator of all things, every thing.
Now, all things can mean either everything or all things created..
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I am not talking about the creation, I am talking about everything.
Reread the last couple of arguments of mine..
how can God be a part of everything when he was never created and is the creator?!


its not nice when people play with words like this.
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 02:06 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
No, you got it!
I don't think it is useless, logic is all about words.

The Quan says many times that Allah is the crator of all things, every thing.
Now, all things can mean either everything or all things created..
it means everything to the exclusion of God himself because God is not a "thing", and we are saying every "thing",


yeah i can play with words too dude
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:09 PM
If god is not the creator of everything, omnicreator, is he still all-powerfull, omnipotent?...
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
how can God be a part of everything when he was never created and is the creator?!


its not nice when people play with words like this.
We define everything as a group of objects that are, that exists.
God is.
God is a part of everything.
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 02:10 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If god is not the creator of everything, omnicreator, is he still all-powerfull, omnipotent?...
again you are just playing with words.


let me ask, do you understand the concept of God being far above all created things?
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:13 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
it means everything to the exclusion of God himself because God is not a "thing", and we are saying every "thing",


yeah i can play with words too dude
If you didn't notice, I aknowledged that option in my post.
What is a thing?
The literal translation of teh Quran says God created every thing, not all things, and many if not most islamic sites say he is the creator of everything.
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 02:15 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
We define everything as a group of objects that are, that exists.
God is.
God is a part of everything.
nope, you define it as everything, we see God as far above the created, as he is the creator.
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:16 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
again you are just playing with words.


let me ask, do you understand the concept of God being far above all created things?
I am not talking about created things, I talking about a logical peculiarity that arouses alongside with the existence of god. There are many others, they may be word plays, tehy may prove that a thing like god cannot exists...I don't know, I am an agnostic.:okay:
I'm not sure I understand the islamic version. Could you revise it for me?
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:22 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
nope, you define it as everything, we see God as far above the created, as he is the creator.
but god and his creation still form something bigger, if nothing else, they form a sum of god and his creation, god+creation.

everything = {god, creation}
God created everthing.
1. Either god created god
2. Or god did not create every element in the group of everything, hence he did not create everything.
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 02:30 PM
i cant help but feel your mocking now lol,


just accept that everything excludes God.


accept it dude
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:33 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i cant help but feel your mocking now lol,


just accept that everything excludes God.


accept it dude
sorry, I can't.:):D
So, why don't you accept that God IS a part of evrything, dude?:okay:
Anyway, let's move to another issue...
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K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 02:34 PM
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
Well Allaah has no beginning or end, so you can't branch him under the same things as you've branched life and creations. He is the creator who brought forth the Universe and his beings to dwell in only to worship him.
That Allah existed before life was created is a logical impossibility. If Allah has no begining or end, then life also has no begining or end.
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guyabano
02-25-2008, 02:35 PM
Ladies and gents... please. There is a nonsense in this discussion and it goes in circles. Let's just all accept without mocking each other that we accept the other beliefs, and everything will be fine.
Anyway, it is not this thread, neither another one which will prrove to Atheists the existance of God.

We will all know it once we die. And please no ridiculous comment now à la 'Yeah, you will burn in hell', 'Oh yes, you will know it *giggle*' or silly smilies just to proove, the other is wrong.
Noone is wrong and we are all wrong. Happy now?

Let's shake hands...

Peace
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
That Allah existed before life was created is a logical impossibility. If Allah has no begining or end, then life also has no begining or end.
just because you cant comprehend it doesnt make it false.

Allah is infinite, again you wont be able to comprehend that.

why dont you concentrate on what you can understand. Slowly develop your understanding, and then come back to this issue?
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K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 02:36 PM
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
You're stating that it doesn't make sense for a creator to have lived before there was anything living, but if Allaah has no beginning or end then that means he's eternal. He is ever-Living, has always lived, and will continue to live.
Yes, Allah is ever-living. Then why does the Quran say He created life?
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Abdul-Raouf
02-25-2008, 02:39 PM
Hi Venu...

Who created Shiv ? Do u have answer for that ....?
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K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 02:39 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Allah is immortal. He is neither born and nor does He die. - Akal Purakh.

He is indescribable, inestimable, indubitable, infallible, intangible, imperishable, immutable, immortal, immaculate, immanent, unconquerable, unique, formless, fearless, deathless, timeless, ageless, compassionate, omnipresent and creator of all.
I agree Allah is immortal. Which means Allah always had life. Then why does the Quran say Allah created life?
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:40 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
That Allah existed before life was created is a logical impossibility. If Allah has no begining or end, then life also has no begining or end.
Where does the Quran state that Allah is alive? Where does it state he created life?
It's more likely taht it says Allah exists, which is wrong. Perhaps the arabic version of the Quran says, Allah is, which is right...Perhaps it says something else.
It's been said before that Allah did not create life itself, existence itself (which may also be a logical fallacy...), but rather that he created all living things...
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AvarAllahNoor
02-25-2008, 02:40 PM
Even I'm confused now, and I'm a Sikh!
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K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
If god created everything, did he create himself as well...

:blind:
A good question.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-25-2008, 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
I agree Allah is immortal. Which means Allah always had life. Then why does the Quran say Allah created life?
He created human life?
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
I agree Allah is immortal. Which means Allah always had life. Then why does the Quran say Allah created life?
do you think the life of the omnipotent and the life of the created is the same?!

its just a case of the supreme creating the lesser...
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:42 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
We will all know it once we die.
Not if I'm right.:okay:
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:44 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
do you think the life of the omnipotent and the life of the created is the same?!

its just a case of the supreme creating the lesser...
That could be it.
but K.Venugopal's questions brings forth a lot of new questions, one of which we were discussing a couple of minutes ago.
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 02:46 PM
why must life be created?
why must Allah exist?

you could ask so many questions, and for every question you'll get an answer. Its just grasping that answer which causes you difficulty!
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:46 PM
Here's a nother one that comes to my mind:
did god decide to exist?
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
why must life be created?
why must Allah exist?

you could ask so many questions, and for every question you'll get an answer. Its just grasping that answer which causes you difficulty!
That's not the proper way to argue.
As I can say the same thing for you! But I won't..
PS: so far, I have not received a satisfactory answer as to why did god create the creation.
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guyabano
02-25-2008, 02:48 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Even I'm confused now, and I'm a Sikh!
pfffffff...LOL :D

This thread is already since page 2 ad absurdum
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IbnAbdulHakim
02-25-2008, 02:48 PM
^ exactly, all these are questions which can indeed be asked. but they are not objective at all. Whats happened has happened, we should find out as much as we are capable of and then await a time which we have come to accept (ie afterlife) to ask further.

I think we have enough proof to get through life, the rest can wait.


This is my perspective
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AvarAllahNoor
02-25-2008, 02:50 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Here's a nother one that comes to my mind: did god decide to exist?
Now you're being silly! - There are people that believe, and those that don't. Fair enough.

God is the only thing that has existed, and shall exist when we all have departed. He can't be explained, or fathomed.
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:51 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ exactly, all these are questions which can indeed be asked. but they are not objective at all. Whats happened has happened, we should find out as much as we are capable of and then await a time which we have come to accept (ie afterlife) to ask further.

I think we have enough proof to get through life, the rest can wait.


This is my perspective
Mine is different. We're all different!
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K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by MustafaMc
To start with quote for me an ayat of the Qur'an or an authentic hadith that states "Allah created life".
Surah 67.2 of the Quran:
YUSUFALI: He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
PICKTHAL: Who hath created life and death that He may try you which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,
SHAKIR: Who created death and life that He may try you-- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,


Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Allah created the creation including all living things. That is not to say that He created the "quality", the "principal", the "force" or the "organismic state" that characterizes living organisms and separates them from the dead.
If Allah did not create "quality", the "principal", the "force" or the "organismic state", how did they come about?

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
Allah created man from clay and breathed of His Spirit (life) into him Quran 38:71 ...
My question is not whether Allah created man. My question is, "Did Allah create life?"
Reply

AvarAllahNoor
02-25-2008, 02:58 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal

My question is not whether Allah created man. My question is, "Did Allah create life?"
Life = human, life = animals, life = vegetation. - What are you reffering to?
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 02:59 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Surah 67.2 of the Quran:
YUSUFALI: He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
PICKTHAL: Who hath created life and death that He may try you which of you is best in conduct; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,
SHAKIR: Who created death and life that He may try you-- which of you is best in deeds; and He is the Mighty, the Forgiving,
Where does it state he is alive?

If Allah did not create "quality", the "principal", the "force" or the "organismic state", how did they come about?
It seems the Quran says he did create life, so Mustafa may be wrong..
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 03:06 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
:salamext:


Allah's attributes are different from human attributes, therefore to say that 'life' of humans is similar to how Allah is - is totally false. Since there is none like Him.


Therefore the statement itself is flawed, since the concept of living has a totally different context and meaning for God compared to humans and the rest of creation.
Your answer is good. You are saying the 'life' of humans is different from the 'life' of Allah. But does the Quran specifically say so? Or can we imply from anything the Quran says that it is thus? I think to the best of human knowledge, life means just one thing. Is there anything like the life of a human being different from the life of, say, a cat? Mind you, I am not talking about the 'concept of living'. I am talking about life, that which enlivens you and me. Without this life, can Allah be alive?



Originally Posted by - Qatada -
It's like saying - did Allah create speech? Yes, He created speech for humans, and mankind etc. However - His speech is not created since it is His attribute, and He did not create Himself - since He is Eternal without a beginning or end, and this is why He is Perfect, and this is why we take Him and believe in Him as God - since His Perfection implies His Lordship over His creatures who are dependant upon Him.
The principle is, if something existed, then Allah cannot claim to have created it. Invention yes, but not creation.
Reply

------
02-25-2008, 03:09 PM
:salamext:

"Did Allah create life?"
YES and He created Death

Surah 67.2 of the Quran:
YUSUFALI: He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 03:13 PM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
He is Eternal without a beginning or end, and this is why He is Perfect, and [B]this is why we take Him and believe in Him as God
You do not "take Him and believe in Him as God" because "He is Perfect". You have no means whatsoever to measure the perfection of Allah. You believe in Him only because you are a Muslim.
Reply

------
02-25-2008, 03:19 PM
:salamext:

^ But we Worship Allaah, who is WORTHY of being worshipped. :)
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 03:22 PM
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
He is absolute and supreme, the premise of ''creation'' and ''life'' is not the same for his beings as it is for him. He's the over-seer of all things. If he oversees all things, then that means he has knowledge of all things. He created everything, what is hidden and what is apparent to us. He knows what we reveal and conceal. In all aspects of the word, he is supreme.

''Lam yalid, walam yulad'' - He does not beget, nor is he begotten. (Surah Ikhlas, V:3).
Can we deny that Allah is alive? We can't say Allah is not alive. We may say Allah is alive, but in a different way. But that's only a difference of quality. But isn't life one and indivisible?
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 03:28 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
To be alive is to have a beginning and an end. Therefore, if something has no beginning and no end, it cannot be said to be alive.
So are you saying Allah is dead?


Originally Posted by Muezzin
I see where you're going with this. I think this lies more in our understanding or misunderstanding of Allah's nature rather than His existence itself.

I don't think Allah is really a 'being' in the same way His creations are. I think of it more in terms of a... consciousness. That's the closest word I can think of, and it's still a little off.
If you see where I am going, then we are likely to travel together. When you think of Allah in terms of consciousness etc. well, you are treading Hindu grounds. Or maybe Sufi grounds?
Reply

------
02-25-2008, 03:36 PM
:salamext:

So are you saying Allah is dead?
Astagfirullah :ooh: La Hawla Wa La Quwwa Ta Illa Billa... :muddlehea
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 03:37 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
U see if u go along that road and ask these type of questions, u could also continue asking who created that god and who created the one before him and so forth(infinity!)
Only if you continue asking questions will you be inspired to meditate. Then you are no longer asking questions, but begining to see.

Originally Posted by Hamada
To make it easier on ur mind first accept that there is one god!
It would be easier on our mind if we at first have an open mind!
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 03:43 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
in order for something to be created it needs a creator. God never needed a creator and was never created.
In order for God to create he needs to be alive. If he was alive, then the question of creating life did not arise. Why then did the Quran say that Allah created life?
Reply

Roasted Cashew
02-25-2008, 03:46 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
it means everything to the exclusion of God himself because God is not a "thing", and we are saying every "thing",


yeah i can play with words too dude
I like this one. Ok look guys. Now we have GOD saying in the Qur'an, He created everything. Who is He telling that too? Us human! .........wait I will continue later.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Does anyone know why this thread is in the 'Introduce Yourself' section?

Peace
My mistake. Do you think I ought to 're-start' the thread elsewhere? I leave it to the moderators.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 03:58 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
EVERYTHING is created, and God is the CREATOR.
According to my understanding, God could not have created life.
Reply

------
02-25-2008, 04:00 PM
:salamext:

Are you going to answer 6 PAGES OF POSTS like that?! ^^
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:01 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul-Raouf
Hi Venu ... me too from india... nice to meet u...

Welcome to LI...



Can u please explain me more about your logic behind that sentence....





Hi Abdul-Raouf, happy to meet you. Do you think my sentence is logical?
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:04 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
thats a hindu belief
Let a belief be of any origin. The question is whether the beliefs stand up to logic.
Reply

------
02-25-2008, 04:05 PM
:salamext:

The question is whether the beliefs stand up to logic.
The Hindu faith certanly doesn't! Worshipping idols who cannot help you or themselves whats that about then lol
Reply

sadia faisal
02-25-2008, 04:05 PM
Allah is beyond human understanding, if it really was so simple to understand Allah as a being or as a creator, then we wouldn't bo too behind would we. Science hardly knows the complete functioning of the body, there are still some parts of it that are a mystery. There are places in the world which are not understood by humans. There are creatures in the world that we do not know of. There have been creatures in the past which we won't even have heard of...

And thats only on this earth... what about the planet and the planets in our solar system, what about the millions of planets in our galaxy - the milky way...

then there are the millions of other galaxies - which contain millions of more stars...

And thats only what is visible to us, even with telescopes as good as the hubble telescope... we have no idea what lies ahead, behind and on either side of us...

Now that we come to it, we have not the slightest clue of even an atoms worth of knowledge that this universe conceals!!

And only Allah knows how many more universes that there maybe...which we can't even comprehend...

The knowledge of Allah is undefineable... so how can we even TRY to define Allah...
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:07 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:

He created everything.

Comprehende?!
Non comprehende! How could He have created life? (I am asking only for the logic. I am not unfairly asking you for the science.)
Reply

sadia faisal
02-25-2008, 04:10 PM
If we knew how he cud have created life, don't you think we would have done it by now!! (not that they're not trying...unsuccessfully...)
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:11 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Everything is everything there is. God is. God is a part of everything.
A fantastic insight. Quintessential Hinduism.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by -Ibn Al Aqwa-
When people begin trying to comprehend things they cannot, they begin confusing themselves and doubts are created. Them doubts are spurred by the shaytaan.

just thought id say that...Salaam...
Trying to comprehend things we cannot is valorous. Fear of confusion and doubts should not prevent us from being valiant.
Reply

------
02-25-2008, 04:17 PM
:salamext:

Non comprehende! How could He have created life? (I am asking only for the logic. I am not unfairly asking you for the science.)
LOL!!! HAHAHAHA u gimme jokes. Ur asking how the Most Powerful could have created life?! Ur asking how the creator could have created life?! Think about wot ur asking man!
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:21 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim

thats hindu belief, but if you mean he created everything, then yeah ! but you cant go up to a chair and think its God just because God created it
God did not create the chair - man did. But man could not have but for God. Therefore surely there is God in the chair.
Reply

crayon
02-25-2008, 04:23 PM
In this regard Prophet Muhammad, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, was reported by Ibn ‘Abbaas to have said:“Reflect on the creation of God but do not reflect on God.

To reflect on the reality of God is to reflect on the infinite. And, as the mind boggles when it reflects on the limits of the finite universe and the galaxies and stars within it, it will be more confounded when it attempts to understand the uncreated. The Prophet, may God praise him, warned that the satanic forces would seek to introduce doubts in the hearts of the believers by raising unanswerable questions about God. Aboo Hurayrah related that God’s Messenger, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, said:

“Satan will come to everyone of you and ask: Who created this and that? - until he questions: Who created your Lord? When he comes to that, one should seek refuge in God [say: I affirm my faith in God and His prophets] and avoid [such thoughts].

Found that on a website. source

Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
That's not the proper way to argue.
As I can say the same thing for you! But I won't..
PS: so far, I have not received a satisfactory answer as to why did god create the creation.
As for the reason Allah created creation, we muslims have an insanely simple answer to a question most people spend their lives trying to answer, and rarely succeed.

"I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship." (Qur'an, 51:56)
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:24 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:

Lol ur just tryna confuse us man.... take ur ideas where they're appreciated, coz they aren't here!
Are you saying all Muslims think alike?
Reply

crayon
02-25-2008, 04:25 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
God did not create the chair - man did. But man could not have but for God. Therefore surely there is God in the chair.
Man created the chair, right? So by your reasoning, there is surely man in the chair, yes?
Reply

Muezzin
02-25-2008, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
So are you saying Allah is dead?
No, I'm saying he's simply 'not alive' in the way we understand it. For something to be dead, it must once have lived.

If you see where I am going, then we are likely to travel together. When you think of Allah in terms of consciousness etc. well, you are treading Hindu grounds. Or maybe Sufi grounds?
That's just my own personal understanding/sense of it. I don't wish for this to become a sectarian debate. :)
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:26 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
God always was, is and always will be


God created everything and wasnt created.


God doesnt need to be a part of his creation.
God cannot but be a part of creation for the simple reason that life is not divisible.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:32 PM
Originally Posted by hmmm5
"God created almost every single thing in this world" basically implying God didn't not create himself and nor was he created.
And that 'almost every single thing' excludes life. Yet the Quran says God created life. Where is the error?
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul-Raouf
Hi Venu...

Who created Shiv ? Do u have answer for that ....?
Hinduism says, "Truth is one and the wise express it variously." Shiv is an expression of the Truth.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 04:42 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
A fantastic insight. Quintessential Hinduism.
Hehe, I wasn't trying to say god resides in chairs, I was merely pointing out taht god, who created everything, would have to be a part fo that everything, which I think is impossible.
Now, god may as well reside in chairs, if he exists. I think omnipresence comes with omnipotence.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 04:45 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
And that 'almost every single thing' excludes life. Yet the Quran says God created life. Where is the error?
Allah may have been refering to life in an earthly way or he amy have used life as a meatphor for living organisms.
God may not be alive in the way we understand it, it's posible he is not alive, who says existence must include life?
:embarrass
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:47 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
He created human life?
It says in the Quran He created life. It also says that he created a human form in clay and blew life into it.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 04:54 PM
Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
do you think the life of the omnipotent and the life of the created is the same?!

its just a case of the supreme creating the lesser...
Life-forms are different - but the life within is one. When forms cease to have life, then the forms are dead. But life can never die. Life may appear to be different when in different forms. But there is only one life.
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
As for the reason Allah created creation, we muslims have an insanely simple answer to a question most people spend their lives trying to answer, and rarely succeed.

"I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship." (Qur'an, 51:56)
God is self-sufficient, yet he wants (or needs, basically the same) worship?
If god were self-sufficient, he would not have created anything...he would not have done a single thing, as taht woudl imply there was a reason, a necessity for it, which is in contradiction with a perfect, self-sufficient being.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 05:01 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Life = human, life = animals, life = vegetation. - What are you reffering to?
Life = Indian, life = Chinese, life = American - but isn't life life - one and the same?
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 05:07 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:



YES and He created Death

Surah 67.2 of the Quran:
YUSUFALI: He Who created Death and Life, that He may try which of you is best in deed: and He is the Exalted in Might, Oft-Forgiving;-
How could Allah have created death? Death is simply the absence of life. Death does not exist. Death cannot exist. To be dead is to cease to exist. This makes the Quranic ayat even more erroneous.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 05:18 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext: The Hindu faith certanly doesn't! Worshipping idols who cannot help you or themselves whats that about then lol
One person is an Allah worshipper and another is an idol worshipper. As Allah helps his worshippers, the idols too are helping its worshippers. There are probably more idol worshippers than Allah-worshippers. Without some benefits both camps would have been bereft of worshippers. So let's accept the dictum - to each his own way.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 05:27 PM
Originally Posted by Salam4life
Allah is beyond human understanding, if it really was so simple to understand Allah as a being or as a creator, then we wouldn't bo too behind would we. Science hardly knows the complete functioning of the body, there are still some parts of it that are a mystery. There are places in the world which are not understood by humans. There are creatures in the world that we do not know of. There have been creatures in the past which we won't even have heard of...

And thats only on this earth... what about the planet and the planets in our solar system, what about the millions of planets in our galaxy - the milky way...

then there are the millions of other galaxies - which contain millions of more stars...

And thats only what is visible to us, even with telescopes as good as the hubble telescope... we have no idea what lies ahead, behind and on either side of us...

Now that we come to it, we have not the slightest clue of even an atoms worth of knowledge that this universe conceals!!...
This human humility is endearing. In fact this humility has been the mother of all the knowledge man has gathered through the innumerable generations he has lived.

Originally Posted by Salam4life
And only Allah knows how many more universes that there maybe...which we can't even comprehend...

The knowledge of Allah is undefineable... so how can we even TRY to define Allah
And in the midst of humility comes our certainity about Allah. A certainity that tends to arrogance when it is suggested that all knowledge is contained in the Quran.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:



LOL!!! HAHAHAHA u gimme jokes. Ur asking how the Most Powerful could have created life?! Ur asking how the creator could have created life?! Think about wot ur asking man!
I repeat, I am asking for your logic, not Allah's science.
Reply

crayon
02-25-2008, 05:31 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
God is self-sufficient, yet he wants (or needs, basically the same) worship?
If god were self-sufficient, he would not have created anything...he would not have done a single thing, as taht woudl imply there was a reason, a necessity for it, which is in contradiction with a perfect, self-sufficient being.
That question is answered quite well here:
"Allah has honored humans by creating them to be His vicegerents on earth. He gave us free will, which makes us higher than the angels.

But our minds as human beings are limited to the boundaries of human perception. We should bear this in mind and never try to bother ourselves with things that fall outside of our scope of understanding. Allah did not need to create us, and therefore, we may never understand why He did.

Yes, Allah is perfect. Yes, He has no need of us; rather, we need Him. When He created us, He did not create us for His own benefit, but for ours. He created us for our advantage, not His.

Allah does not need to be worshiped; rather, we need to worship Him. Our need of God stems from our innate need of someone to help us and give us safety.


Our purpose of existence on earth is more meaningful than being slaves to worldly gains. There can be no meaningful life better than that prescribed by our Creator, Allah. Every act done according to Allah's way is an act of worship. Man is the beneficiary and Allah is in no need. The Qur’an says what means:

*{O mankind! It is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah is Rich [Free of all wants and needs], Worthy of all praise.}* (Fatir 35:15)

We need Allah to feel our own being and to taste the happiness of life. Our need for Him is like the need of a baby for a supporting father and a merciful mother. We need to admit our powerlessness before Him and to trust Him to give us might and power, since He is the source of all might and power. A prophetic tradition reads:

“O Allah, I seek refuge in You for Your pleasure and against Your wrath and in Your forgiveness and against Your punishment and in You from You. I cannot praise You as You can praise Yourself.” (Reported by Muslim, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah.)

Almighty Allah says what means:

*{Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:255)"

source
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 05:40 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
In this regard Prophet Muhammad, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, was reported by Ibn ‘Abbaas to have said:“Reflect on the creation of God but do not reflect on God.

To reflect on the reality of God is to reflect on the infinite. And, as the mind boggles when it reflects on the limits of the finite universe and the galaxies and stars within it, it will be more confounded when it attempts to understand the uncreated. The Prophet, may God praise him, warned that the satanic forces would seek to introduce doubts in the hearts of the believers by raising unanswerable questions about God. Aboo Hurayrah related that God’s Messenger, may the blessing and mercy of God be upon him, said:

“Satan will come to everyone of you and ask: Who created this and that? - until he questions: Who created your Lord? When he comes to that, one should seek refuge in God [say: I affirm my faith in God and His prophets] and avoid [such thoughts].
You have quoted Mohammad. That was what was in Mohammad's mind. I am asking about what is in the Quran. That is what was in God's mind. How could God have claimed to have created life?

Originally Posted by crayon
As for the reason Allah created creation, we muslims have an insanely simple answer to a question most people spend their lives trying to answer, and rarely succeed.

"I have created the jinn and humankind only for My worship." (Qur'an, 51:56)
The result, Muslims believe it is the greatest thing to be a slave of Allah. Unquestioning, obedient and intolerant to other religions.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 05:49 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Man created the chair, right? So by your reasoning, there is surely man in the chair, yes?
Now-a-days chairs are mass-produced by machines and we might only be interested to know which factory produced it. But even now in villages, when a chair of ornamentation is created, the fame of the carpenter is almost written into it. Why, if I draw a squarish horse and pass it off as drawn by M.F. Hussain, I might make a fast buck. That's because great drawings reflect the artist quite a bit.

"To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour."

-- William Blake, from "Auguries of Innocence"

I hope you got the flow of what I am saying.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 05:58 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Allah may have been refering to life in an earthly way or he amy have used life as a meatphor for living organisms.
God may not be alive in the way we understand it, it's posible he is not alive, who says existence must include life?
:embarrass
Your answer is very satisfactory. Existence includes life, but whether it can exclude life and still exist is a moot point.
Reply

Mikayeel
02-25-2008, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Well, and here is the part, where our opinions split. I refuse to believe in something/someone whose existence has never been prooven.
Science/Evolution is something I can touch and proove, but existance of God, no.

In that case, my decision has been made.

Peace
Thats right we differ greatly:), uhm you are mostly right science you can see and touch! The problem is once u think u have it in your hands, it will slip. Science is to inconsistent!

Take my word my friend, go outside and just take a look at everything around u:). Take a look at it with hope, and i will swear down that things will make sense! Important thing is to look with hope!

Everything just seem to be so perfect for us to live in! So many things we don't even think about.
Why do the ingredients we make food with taste good enough for us to eat? They could of tasted horrible!
Why does it rain in abudance? Why is the rain not salty?
So many things! So little hope....
Look at the world with hope and look at things from a different view:)
Reply

Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
That question is answered quite well here:
"Allah has honored humans by creating them to be His vicegerents on earth. He gave us free will, which makes us higher than the angels.

But our minds as human beings are limited to the boundaries of human perception. We should bear this in mind and never try to bother ourselves with things that fall outside of our scope of understanding. Allah did not need to create us, and therefore, we may never understand why He did.

Yes, Allah is perfect. Yes, He has no need of us; rather, we need Him. When He created us, He did not create us for His own benefit, but for ours. He created us for our advantage, not His.

Allah does not need to be worshiped; rather, we need to worship Him. Our need of God stems from our innate need of someone to help us and give us safety.


Our purpose of existence on earth is more meaningful than being slaves to worldly gains. There can be no meaningful life better than that prescribed by our Creator, Allah. Every act done according to Allah's way is an act of worship. Man is the beneficiary and Allah is in no need. The Qur’an says what means:

*{O mankind! It is you who stand in need of Allah, but Allah is Rich [Free of all wants and needs], Worthy of all praise.}* (Fatir 35:15)

We need Allah to feel our own being and to taste the happiness of life. Our need for Him is like the need of a baby for a supporting father and a merciful mother. We need to admit our powerlessness before Him and to trust Him to give us might and power, since He is the source of all might and power. A prophetic tradition reads:

“O Allah, I seek refuge in You for Your pleasure and against Your wrath and in Your forgiveness and against Your punishment and in You from You. I cannot praise You as You can praise Yourself.” (Reported by Muslim, Abu Dawud, At-Tirmidhi and Ibn Majah.)

Almighty Allah says what means:

*{Allah is He besides Whom there is no god, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsisting by Whom all subsist; slumber does not overtake Him nor sleep; whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His; who is he that can intercede with Him but by His permission? He knows what is before them and what is behind them, and they cannot comprehend anything out of His knowledge except what He pleases, His knowledge extends over the heavens and the earth, and the preservation of them both tires Him not, and He is the Most High, the Great.}* (Al-Baqarah 2:255)"

source
As I said, no satisfactory response so far.
Thanks for trying anyway.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 06:01 PM
Originally Posted by Muezzin
No, I'm saying he's simply 'not alive' in the way we understand it. For something to be dead, it must once have lived.
Life is indivisible. Life forms die, but life itself cannot die. Allah did not create life, ALLAH IS LIFE.
Reply

K.Venugopal
02-25-2008, 06:05 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
God is self-sufficient, yet he wants (or needs, basically the same) worship?
If god were self-sufficient, he would not have created anything...he would not have done a single thing, as taht woudl imply there was a reason, a necessity for it, which is in contradiction with a perfect, self-sufficient being.
You've got the seed here of a higher truth. Maybe I will revert to it some other time in some other thread.
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Life is indivisible. Life forms die, but life itself cannot die. Allah did not create life, ALLAH IS LIFE.
That's a fair view from where you're standing...
One question: what are you trying to achieve with this thread?
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1ummah
02-25-2008, 06:23 PM
Allah cannot be comprehended/understood through knowledge only.

Allah cannot be understood/comprehended through having Faith.

Only when these two come togeter can you get a glimpse of Who Allah is.

"Allah Guides whomever He Wills without any measures"

May Allah Guide us all
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 06:33 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Your answer is very satisfactory. Existence includes life, but whether it can exclude life and still exist is a moot point.
Why not? A chair exists yet it is not alive. A virus exists, yet it is not alive. why can't god exixst and be unalive?
I know you percieve life as some higher force connected with god... whereas I see life as a quality of living beigns, which did not exists before the first life forms appeared. It's more of a description than anything else... I find ot simialr to the word connection. You've got two adjacent boxes, inbetween them is a connection... which does not exists physically, it's an idea, a description of a certain state.
God does not need to be alive in order to be/exist.
If I were a muslim, I'd interpret the verse in question to decribe the creation of living organisms (life) and the setting of a limit to their existence (death).
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Whatsthepoint
02-25-2008, 06:34 PM
Originally Posted by 1ummah
Allah cannot be comprehended/understood through knowledge only.

Allah cannot be understood/comprehended through having Faith.

Only when these two come togeter can you get a glimpse of Who Allah is.

"Allah Guides whomever He Wills without any measures"

May Allah Guide us all
the same with polytheism, trinity etc... that muslims are so keen to disprove with logic.
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Keltoi
02-25-2008, 07:02 PM
We have our own perception of what "life" is. Meaning we think of flesh and blood with all the inner workings of the human body. People of faith view God as "something" else entirely.
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AvarAllahNoor
02-25-2008, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
One person is an Allah worshipper and another is an idol worshipper. As Allah helps his worshippers, the idols too are helping its worshippers. There are probably more idol worshippers than Allah-worshippers. Without some benefits both camps would have been bereft of worshippers. So let's accept the dictum - to each his own way.
You need to go and read the Vedas. You'll find idolatry is not permissable. So saying idols help the believer is codswallop!
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MustafaMc
02-25-2008, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
I agree Allah is immortal. Which means Allah always had life. Then why does the Quran say Allah created life?
Can you quote me Surah and ayat? (I read your latter post)
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Keltoi
02-26-2008, 12:57 AM
Am I off base in my understanding that God's creation is what we call "life"? This isn't as difficult of a question as some are making it out to be, at least in my opinion. What is referred to by "life" is indeed the creation of the Almighty God. Mortal beings made of flesh and bone, whether it be animal or Human. Or if one wants to get more complex, all the variations of life as we know it, from single cell organisms to the complex human body. God would be neither mortal, nor flesh, nor cell. At least that is how I view it.
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 03:53 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
That's a fair view from where you're standing...
One question: what are you trying to achieve with this thread?
I am simply trying to say that when the Quran says Allah created life, there seems to be something amiss there. I am not taking the position that the Quran is wrong. I prefer to believe that we have not come to a proper understanding of what the Quran means. That could be because those folks who interpreted the Quran in the initial period might have been somewhat insular –and chose to reinvent the wheel again, failing to appreciate that, for example, the Hindu culture or the Veda had already trod much grounds on key understanding of the human dilemma. Instead, the approach had been to say that all that came before the Quran is crap and all that comes after the Quran would also be crap. It is probably this attitude that I am questioning.
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Intisar
02-26-2008, 04:01 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
The reply does not satisfy me, it confuses me even further.
God cannot be the creator of everything and at the same time not be created..
Why would he need to be created? God is independent, he doesn't need a creator. He's the absolute creator, nothing is before him or supercedes him.

Hope that makes sense.
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Abdul Fattah
02-26-2008, 04:04 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Yeah, yeah, I get hat.
But that makes it impossible for god to be the creator of all things.
This is splitting hairs. "All things except himself" Was that really so hard to come up with? :)
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Intisar
02-26-2008, 04:32 AM
Also, God having a creator would entail that he has a beginning (life) and an end (death) and as it has been stated umpteen times, God has none of these attributes.
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ranma1/2
02-26-2008, 06:10 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
It is said in the Quran that Allah created life. If Allah were to have created life, there would have been no life till He created it. If there was no life till He created it, Allah would have been dead till He created life. This is a logical absurdity. Can my brethren in Islam therefore please explain why it is said in the Quran that Allah created life?
that the fun with any religion, contradictions dont count.

seriously though, id say they mean allah created all other life.
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ranma1/2
02-26-2008, 06:19 AM
Originally Posted by - Qatada -
He is Eternal without a beginning or end, and this is why He is Perfect,....
how can something perfect make something imperfect?
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ranma1/2
02-26-2008, 06:26 AM
Originally Posted by Hamada
U see if u go along that road and ask these type of questions, u could also continue asking who created that god and who created the one before him and so forth(infinity!)

Doesn't make sense, does it!

To make it easier on ur mind first accept that there is one god! (Nothing is before him, and nothing is after him!)
Don't get caught asking questions which will never have an answer to! Ur life will be a mess, because u going to end questioning stuff which will never be answered, NEVER!
your right about that, god is an arbitrarily made terminator.

im worried about your not wanting people to ask questions that you dont have the answer to.
Aksing questions is good
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ranma1/2
02-26-2008, 06:31 AM
Originally Posted by -Ibn Al Aqwa-
When people begin trying to comprehend things they cannot, they begin confusing themselves and doubts are created. Them doubts are spurred by the shaytaan.

just thought id say that...Salaam...
when peoplebdegin to trying to learn and to comprehend things they do not understand they grow. The desire to not learn , to close your eyes, is the true evil.
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Mikayeel
02-26-2008, 06:32 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
your right about that, god is an arbitrarily made terminator.

im worried about your not wanting people to ask questions that you dont have the answer to.
Aksing questions is good
That is only so in the eyes of a person whos view is limited am afraid:(

I can't see how its free thinking, but then agian who am I to think that?
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ranma1/2
02-26-2008, 06:48 AM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:

^ But we Worship Allaah, who is WORTHY of being worshipped. :)
why is he worthy?
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Mikayeel
02-26-2008, 06:56 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
why is he worthy?
He is the creator of all that excists, which makes him well worthy of worshipping!:)
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snakelegs
02-26-2008, 07:06 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
If there was no life till He created it, Allah would have been dead till He created life. This is a logical absurdity.
yes, i agree it is a logical absurdity. i think it is because you are using your limited human understanding in an attempt to understand something that is beyond understanding.
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snakelegs
02-26-2008, 07:10 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
One person is an Allah worshipper and another is an idol worshipper. As Allah helps his worshippers, the idols too are helping its worshippers. There are probably more idol worshippers than Allah-worshippers. Without some benefits both camps would have been bereft of worshippers. So let's accept the dictum - to each his own way.
AvarAllahNoor already commented on this but i too am surprised at this statement. i've always been told by hindus that they don't worshp the idols - it just looks like it and that they realize the idols themselves do not help people. :hmm:
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ranma1/2
02-26-2008, 07:11 AM
Originally Posted by Hamada
He is the creator of all that excists, which makes him well worthy of worshipping!:)
no, if god exists, it might get a thanks but thats all.
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guyabano
02-26-2008, 07:23 AM
Originally Posted by Hamada
He is the creator of all that excists, which makes him well worthy of worshipping!:)
Now this statement makes me jump in again.

Why should a God be worthy to be worshipped if he/she/it/thing created us so imperfect? I mean, up from the first breath we take, we are doomed to die. Already oxygen kills us.
And in between, we have to suffer so many pains and face so many trials, so I would I worship him/her/it?

Peace
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Malaikah
02-26-2008, 07:30 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
And that 'almost every single thing' excludes life. Yet the Quran says God created life. Where is the error?
The error is in your understanding.

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Your answer is good. You are saying the 'life' of humans is different from the 'life' of Allah. But does the Quran specifically say so?
Allah said in the Quran something to the effect of: there is nothing like unto Him.

In other words, there is nothing like God.

God calls Himself al-Hayy - the Living. That does not mean He lives in the same way that we live, because God already said that nothing is like Him.

Put it simply:

God = Uncreated, ever-living.

God created life = for His creations. He does not have the same life that we have.

I hope you get it now, its been 11 pages of discussion on this... it's been stated over and over again, everyone else, even the non-Muslims, have got it...
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AvarAllahNoor
02-26-2008, 10:40 AM
Originally Posted by snakelegs
AvarAllahNoor already commented on this but i too am surprised at this statement. i've always been told by hindus that they don't worshp the idols - it just looks like it and that they realize the idols themselves do not help people. :hmm:
Different Sects & Cults in Hinduism, preach their own things. Mostly fabricated to lure the un-educated masses.

God alone is worthy of praise. All religions make this clear & practice it.
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 11:50 AM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
God created life = for His creations. He does not have the same life that we have.
Can you tell me whether man and say, cats, have the same life?
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 11:56 AM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Different Sects & Cults in Hinduism, preach their own things. Mostly fabricated to lure the un-educated masses.

God alone is worthy of praise. All religions make this clear & practice it.
When we say God is worthy of praise, it is almost as if we have sat in judgement and decided God is a worthy fellow. God might not be flattered!
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Whatsthepoint
02-26-2008, 11:58 AM
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
Why would he need to be created? God is independent, he doesn't need a creator. He's the absolute creator, nothing is before him or supercedes him.

Hope that makes sense.
Read the rest of my posts.
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Whatsthepoint
02-26-2008, 12:00 PM
Originally Posted by Abdul Fattah
This is splitting hairs. "All things except himself" Was that really so hard to come up with? :)
It wasn't, I think I said something like it on page 2 or 3.
The problem is that the Quran says "all things".
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crayon
02-26-2008, 12:19 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
You have quoted Mohammad. That was what was in Mohammad's mind. I am asking about what is in the Quran. That is what was in God's mind. How could God have claimed to have created life?

The result, Muslims believe it is the greatest thing to be a slave of Allah. Unquestioning, obedient and intolerant to other religions.
To be a slave of Allah, you have to obey Allah. Allah commands muslims to be obedient, yes. Unquestioning when it comes to certain questions that our mind can not comprehend. And TOLERANT of other religions. read this.


As for the first part of your reply, that IS what was in God's mind. Anything Mohammed peace be upon him said regarding matters of religion were not from his own opinions or ideas; they were revelations by Allah. Allah said in the Quran "Nor does he (Muhammad) speak out of his desire. It is nothing but revelation that is revealed. (Quran 53:3-4)"
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crayon
02-26-2008, 12:23 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Now-a-days chairs are mass-produced by machines and we might only be interested to know which factory produced it. But even now in villages, when a chair of ornamentation is created, the fame of the carpenter is almost written into it. Why, if I draw a squarish horse and pass it off as drawn by M.F. Hussain, I might make a fast buck. That's because great drawings reflect the artist quite a bit.

"To see a World in a Grain of Sand
And a Heaven in a Wild Flower,
Hold Infinity in the palm of your hand
And Eternity in an hour."

-- William Blake, from "Auguries of Innocence"

I hope you got the flow of what I am saying.
So what you meant by "God being present in everything", you did not mean literally? That's how I understood it, I apologize.

"the fame of the carpenter is almost written into it"
But the power and strength of Allah are written into everything he makes. I'm doing high school biology, and I'm astounded at how complicated even the simplest organisms are. And everything in this world is one of a kind, a signature design. Since when has anyone ever been able to make any living organism from thin air?
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crayon
02-26-2008, 12:31 PM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
no, if god exists, it might get a thanks but thats all.
I'm honestly dumbfounded at how anyone could think this way, even someone who doesn't acknowledge the existence of God. God gave you the ability to see, to hear, to taste, to smell, to touch, to experience emotions. Imagine we had to think about every time we needed to breathe, needed to control our digestion, respiration, hormone secretion, anything. Someone who gave you all of these blessings (and that's just looking at the human body, not the rest of creation), does not deserve to be worshiped?

If you really feel that way, I feel sorry for your parents. If you think the God who created you and everything else, what do you feel parents deserve? They raise you, discipline you, feed you, provide you with a home, etc. etc. According to your reasoning, they deserve even less than thanks. You don't have to obey them, or be kind to them, or anything. Truly a sad state.
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Intisar
02-26-2008, 12:38 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Can you tell me whether man and say, cats, have the same life?
No offense, but I feel as if you're going in circles. Men and cats have distinct attributes given to them by an All-powerful and superior being, ''Allaah''. Allaah has his own distinct attributes.

Cats and humans have an end (death) and a beginning(life), whilst Allaah has none of these attributes. Allaah is perfect, and 'alameen (all that exists) are subject to fall into traps and make mistakes unlike Allaah.

Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
When we say God is worthy of praise, it is almost as if we have sat in judgement and decided God is a worthy fellow. God might not be flattered!
So you're telling me the one who created you out of sheer mercy and grace is not worthy of praise? The one who gave you hands to type, and an intellect and intelligence to use does not deserve a thanks?

We are told to obey Allaah and our parents as well. Would you say the same for them? The mother who gave birth to you, fed you, clothed you, nurtured you, stayed up until you went to back to sleep, went through 24 hours of labour for..does not deserve a thanks?

And the originator of all of the universe does not deserve a thanks for providing you with this wondering human being?

Allaah only desires good for his beings, shouldn't you be grateful and show gratitude just for the simple fact that you are alive?

Subhan Allaah, we are so much better off than other people. And who provides us with the necessities to keep alive? Who is the originator of all created beings and creations?

It said that (I will post the hadeeth later on), that Allaah had 100% mercy. He saved 1% for humanity and 99% for himself. And just with that 1% he has given us so much. Ponder on that.
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------
02-26-2008, 12:45 PM
:salamext:

I think the answer has been given, and this thread needs to be closed before it gets out of hand... :mmokay:
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Malaikah
02-26-2008, 01:13 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Can you tell me whether man and say, cats, have the same life?
Yeh, I would reckon so. We have a soul, we have a body, body leaves the soul = person dies.

Or, if you are going to get picky on me, it could be something like, heart stops working, brain shuts down, soul leaves body, person (or cat) dies.

Same can't be said about God!

[To be honest, I'm not a 100% sure that animals have souls, but I'm pretty sure, just not a 100%. Either way, your 'life' is not the same as God's 'life'.]
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 03:44 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
So what you meant by "God being present in everything", you did not mean literally? That's how I understood it, I apologize.
I, K.Venugopal, am not present in the chair I made (let's suppose I am a carpenter) because Venugopal is a physical being and a physical being is a matter-being and matter (me) cannot occupy the space another matter (the chair) occupies. Therefore you will not see Venugopal "in the chair", though you could see me "on the chair" if I happen to be seated on the chair. But if you consider the essessense of me (and you also), then we are not merely physical beings. We are also beings of finer properties. So you might "see" me "in the chair" in the sense that you might recognise the chair as my handiwork.

However, the difference between me the "creator" of the chair and Allah the creator of the universe is that I did not use myself to create the chair whereas Allah used himself to create the universe. Can you guess the "product" he used to create the universe? Life, of course. Truth is, life is not a thing separate from Allah. Life is Allah and Allah is Life. Therefore the Creator is the Creation and the Creation is the Creator.

Originally Posted by crayon
But the power and strength of Allah are written into everything he makes. I'm doing high school biology, and I'm astounded at how complicated even the simplest organisms are. And everything in this world is one of a kind, a signature design. Since when has anyone ever been able to make any living organism from thin air?
You have stated exactly what I have concluded above. Aren't we thinking alike?
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crayon
02-26-2008, 03:57 PM
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Allah used himself to create the universe".. Could you explain it further?
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AvarAllahNoor
02-26-2008, 04:16 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
When we say God is worthy of praise, it is almost as if we have sat in judgement and decided God is a worthy fellow. God might not be flattered!
Read Gurbani all shall be made clear! :)
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 04:37 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
I'm not sure I understand what you mean by "Allah used himself to create the universe".. Could you explain it further?
Before creation nothing would have existed except Allah. Therefore creation occurred when the ONE decided to become MANY. He would have said, "Let this be" and "Let that be" and they became. You could say Allah's thoughts or desire or will became creation. We say, "Allah's will" as if Allah and His will are separate. Allah and His will may be different, but they are not separate - just as a dancer and her dance may be different, but you cannot separate the dancer and the dance. Out of the dancer came the dance. The dance ended, the dancer remains. Out of the ocean came the waves and back to the ocean goes the waves. The ocean and the waves are different, but the ocean and the waves are not separate. Likewise out of Allah came the creation and Allah and creation are different, but they are not separate. In the end, we all go back to Allah.
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Yeh, I would reckon so. We have a soul, we have a body, body leaves the soul = person dies.

Or, if you are going to get picky on me, it could be something like, heart stops working, brain shuts down, soul leaves body, person (or cat) dies.

Same can't be said about God!

[To be honest, I'm not a 100% sure that animals have souls, but I'm pretty sure, just not a 100%. Either way, your 'life' is not the same as God's 'life'.]
If you agree (or thereabouts) that the thing that enlivens us and the cats is the same thing, call it life, soul, essence or consciousness and further that pain, hunger, fear etc. are the same in man and cat (though each man and each cat might react differently to the same circumstance) then could it not be the same thing that enlivens God? Though God, certainly, reacts differently to the same circumstances He faces. (For if he did not face the same circumstances, how could be all-knowing?) I must confess I have only my petty logic to bank on to see that life is a single indivisible thing and that life is indeed God. So the Quran appears to be per se wrong in saying that Allah created life. Which is why I started this thread – to discuss on whether the Quran actually got it wrong on this.
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crayon
02-26-2008, 04:57 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Before creation nothing would have existed except Allah. Therefore creation occurred when the ONE decided to become MANY.He would have said, "Let this be" and "Let that be" and they became. You could say Allah's thoughts or desire or will became creation. We say, "Allah's will" as if Allah and His will are separate. Allah and His will may be different, but they are not separate - just as a dancer and her dance may be different, but you cannot separate the dancer and the dance. Out of the dancer came the dance. The dance ended, the dancer remains. Out of the ocean came the waves and back to the ocean goes the waves. The ocean and the waves are different, but the ocean and the waves are not separate. Likewise out of Allah came the creation and Allah and creation are different, but they are not separate. In the end, we all go back to Allah.
"Therefore creation occurred when the ONE decided to become MANY."
See, I would say creation occurred when ONE decided to create MANY. Not become. Which leads to Allah's will/desire/power/etc. to create everything, not become it. Which leads to the idea that Allah and his creation are different entities.
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Mikayeel
02-26-2008, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
Now this statement makes me jump in again.

Why should a God be worthy to be worshipped if he/she/it/thing created us so imperfect? I mean, up from the first breath we take, we are doomed to die. Already oxygen kills us.
And in between, we have to suffer so many pains and face so many trials, so I would I worship him/her/it?

Peace
I find this well funny! How me the one worships that god has no complains at all, and u who lacks the faith is complaining.

All these trials, pains all my problems I see as a blessing that THE ONE LORD who is worthy of worship is testing me! (YES ME !! :D)

While on the other hand u be very depressed when undergoing such trial, u be worried dying from oxygen etc.....

U choose; a worry depressed life at times, or a faithfull and hopefull life.

I hope u go for the latter one.
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 05:30 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
All these trials, pains all my problems I see as a blessing that THE ONE LORD who is worthy of worship is testing me!
This I agree entirely with you. This is the quintessence of spirituality. Actually, I'd go to the extent of saying that problems do not exist at all - everyone, everything and every circumstance is perfect - if only we wake up from our nightmare born of ignorance. And we might even come to realize that we have all along being none other than the Allah we were worshipping. (OK, I concede my last sentence would sound blasphemy to you. I apologize if I hurt you, but as a Hindu, such a teaching is my most precious knowledge.)
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 05:38 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
"Therefore creation occurred when the ONE decided to become MANY."
See, I would say creation occurred when ONE decided to create MANY. Not become. Which leads to Allah's will/desire/power/etc. to create everything, not become it. Which leads to the idea that Allah and his creation are different entities.
Since God could not have created life and since he could not have created creation without life (not just He having life, but he needed life for creation) creation actually meant that the Creator became creation. Life cannot create life. Life can only take different forms in an act of creation.
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crayon
02-26-2008, 06:14 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Life cannot create life.
Says who?
Says your human mind and logic. But human mind and logic are unable to comprehend the eternal nature of Allah. There is a limit to what we can understand, the how Allah came to be passes that limit.
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guyabano
02-26-2008, 06:16 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
I find this well funny! How me the one worships that god has no complains at all, and u who lacks the faith is complaining.

All these trials, pains all my problems I see as a blessing that THE ONE LORD who is worthy of worship is testing me! (YES ME !! :D)

While on the other hand u be very depressed when undergoing such trial, u be worried dying from oxygen etc.....

U choose; a worry depressed life at times, or a faithfull and hopefull life.

I hope u go for the latter one.
No, I couldn't choose. Why did God not ask me at my birth if I want to follow his path or not? In that case, I would have said NO and I could have been spared from all the trials and pains in life. I could lead a perfect life !
I don't worship somebody who give me trials and pains.

Oh my...

peace
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Mikayeel
02-26-2008, 06:35 PM
Originally Posted by guyabano
No, I couldn't choose. Why did God not ask me at my birth if I want to follow his path or not? In that case, I would have said NO and I could have been spared from all the trials and pains in life. I could lead a perfect life !
I don't worship somebody who give me trials and pains.

Oh my...

peace
God is ever so Merciful! If he finds one atom of hope or faith in your heart he will increase that! I am sure God did ask u perhaps not in a direct way u that u imaged.

You will go trough the trials of life whether you believe in a god or not! The way you handle the trials however varies greatly if u believe or not.

These poor souls commiting suicide because the pressure of life became to severe...
An old guy killed him self because he lost his cat! He happens to have no firm believe. Now ask ur self a person with firm faith and believe, would he of done the same? I am pretty sure he would of not.

What is your way of life guyabano? :)
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by crayon
Says who?
Says your human mind and logic. But human mind and logic are unable to comprehend the eternal nature of Allah. There is a limit to what we can understand, the how Allah came to be passes that limit.
Unfortunately we are only humans and we have to live and prosper by our mind and logic. So the human mind and logic asks, "If Allah created life, was He dead till he created life? Or is He still dead?" Since we cannot get an answer from Allah unless we wait till Judgement day, we have to rely on the Quran itself to come up with an answer. Can anyone quote the Quran for a logical answer? I suppose anything else would be mere mortal opinions.
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K.Venugopal
02-26-2008, 07:27 PM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Life cannot create life.

What I meant here is that if it was life which created life, then that life would not have had life till its creation, right? So did something dead create life? That's not possible, because the dead is not supposed to be able to do anthing. Therefore, the logical conclusion can only be that life cannot create life - life can only manifest itself in various forms in the act of creation.
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*Maysun
02-26-2008, 07:55 PM
When your Lord said unto the angels “indeed, I will make upon the earth a successive authority.” They said will you place upon it one who causes corruption therein and sheds blood, while we declare your praise and sanctify you? He {Allah} said, “Indeed, I know that which you do not know.”

this is how the human started

Allah has no end or begining, his not dead or never be.
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Whatsthepoint
02-26-2008, 08:09 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
God is ever so Merciful! If he finds one atom of hope or faith in your heart he will increase that! I am sure God did ask u perhaps not in a direct way u that u imaged.

You will go trough the trials of life whether you believe in a god or not! The way you handle the trials however varies greatly if u believe or not.

These poor souls commiting suicide because the pressure of life became to severe...
An old guy killed him self because he lost his cat! He happens to have no firm believe. Now ask ur self a person with firm faith and believe, would he of done the same? I am pretty sure he would of not.

What is your way of life guyabano? :)
Are you saying religious people do not comit suicides? Are you saying religious people are not depressed or are less depressed than the non-religious?
Reply

Dr.Trax
02-26-2008, 09:29 PM
Salam Alakym!

Take a look around you from where you sit. You will notice that everything in the room is "made": the walls, the upholstery, the ceiling, the chair where you sit, the booklet you hold in your hand, the glass on the table and countless other details. None of them happen to exist in your room of their own accord. Even the simple loops of the carpet were made by someone: they did not appear spontaneously or by chance.

A person who is about to read a book knows that it has been written by an author for a specific reason. It would not even occur to him that this book might have come into being by chance. In the same manner, a person who sees a sculpture has no doubt whatsoever that it was made by a sculptor. And not just works of art: even a few bricks resting on top of one another make one think that they must have been brought to rest just so by someone within a certain plan. Therefore, everywhere where there is an order - either small or big - a founder and protector of this order must also exist. If, one day, somebody came forward and said that raw iron and coal came together to form steel by chance, which in turn constructed the Eiffel Tower again by chance, would not he and those who believed him be regarded as insane?

The claim of the theory of evolution, the unique method of denying the existence of God, is no different from this. According to the theory, lifeless atoms formed amino acids by chance, amino acids formed proteins by chance, and finally proteins formed living creatures again by chance. However, the probability of a living creature being formed by coincidence is less than the probability of the Eiffel Tower being formed in the same manner, because even the simplest living cell is more sophisticated than any man-made structure in the world.

How is it possible to think that the balance in the world came about by coincidence when the extraordinary harmony of nature is observable even with the naked eye? It is the most unreasonable claim to say that the universe, each point of which suggests the existence of its Creator, has come into being on its own.

Therefore, there should be a designer of the balance visible everywhere from our body to the farthest corners of the inconceivably vast universe. So, who is this Creator that ordained everything so subtly and created all?

He cannot be any material being present within the universe, because His must be a will that existed before the universe and created the universe therewith. The Almighty Creator is One in Whom everything finds existence, yet Whose existence is without any beginning or end.

Religion teaches us the identity of our Creator Whose existence we discover with our reason. Through what He has revealed to us as religion, we know that He is God, the Compassionate and the Merciful, Who created the heavens and the earth from nothing.

Although most people have the capability to grasp this fact, they spend their lives unaware of it. When they look at a landscape painting, they wonder who its painter is. Later, they praise the artist at length for his beautiful work of art. Despite the fact that they face numerous originals of the natural world he painted the moment they turn around, they still disregard the existence of God, Who is the only owner of all these beauties. In truth, no lengthy research is needed to understand the existence of God. Even if one of us had to live in a room from the time he was born, countless pieces of evidence in this room alone would be enough for him to grasp the existence of God.

The human body so overflows with evidence that it could not be contained in many multi-volumed encyclopaedias. Giving only a few minutes of conscientious thought to it all is enough to understand the existence of God. The present order is protected by God and maintained by Him.

The human body is not the only food for thought. Life abides in every square millimetre of the earth, be it observable by men or not. The world overflows with many living beings, from unicellular organisms to plants, from insects to sea animals, and from birds to human beings. If you take a handful of soil and look at it, even therein you can discover manifold living creatures with diverse characteristics. The same is true also for the air you breathe. Even on your skin, there are many living creatures whose names are unknown to you. In the intestines of all living beings are millions of bacteria or unicellular organisms that help digestion. The animal population in the world is many times greater than the human population. When we also consider the plant world, we see that there is not a single spot on the earth where there is no life. All of these creatures that are spread over an area of millions of square kilometres have different body systems, different lives and different contributions to the ecological balance. It is preposterous to claim that all these have come into existence by chance with no aim or purpose. No living being has come to exist through its own accord or effort. No coincidental happening can ever result in such complicated systems.

All of this evidence leads us to the conclusion that the universe works with a certain "consciousness". What, then, is the source of this consciousness? Surely it is neither the living nor the non-living beings in it. Nor can they be the ones that maintain the harmony and preserve the order. The existence and glory of God reveals itself in countless proofs in the universe. In fact, there is not even a single man on the earth who will not accept this evident reality from the heart. Yet they still deny it "in iniquity and arrogance, though their souls are convinced thereof" as stated in the Qur'an. (The Qur'an, 27:14)
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Mikayeel
02-26-2008, 09:33 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Are you saying religious people do not comit suicides? Are you saying religious people are not depressed or are less depressed than the non-religious?
No no no, never would I say that. I am just going with the majoraty (People with no faith or believe are far more likely to kill them self. At the end of the day if ur life is not worth living due what ever kind of problems then suicide could b an optinion because there is no life after death...)

Religious people in my eyes r muslims btw! I dnt no about other religions, but ofcourse muslims get depressed some even get as far as suicide!

A minoroty though! That will ever get as far as Suicide. They perhaps weren't good muslims at all, otherwise they would of not killed them self.
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Whatsthepoint
02-26-2008, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
No no no, never would I say that. I am just going with the majoraty (People with no faith or believe are far more likely to kill them self. At the end of the day if ur life is not worth living due what ever kind of problems then suicide could b an optinion because there is no life after death...)

Religious people in my eyes r muslims btw! I dnt no about other religions, but ofcourse muslims get depressed some even get as far as suicide!

A minoroty though! That will ever get as far as Suicide. They perhaps weren't good muslims at all, otherwise they would of not killed them self.
Can you provide evidence/studies to support your claims?
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Mikayeel
02-26-2008, 09:46 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Can you provide evidence/studies to support your claims?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate

U might not like wikipedia, but it does the job!

The (few) muslim countries on there happens to have alot of none muslims!
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Whatsthepoint
02-26-2008, 09:54 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...y_suicide_rate

U might not like wikipedia, but it does the job!

The (few) muslim countries on there happens to have alot of none muslims!
I'm sorry, but how does this prove atheists are more likely to comit suicide than theists?
Are you suggesting the presence of non-muslims causes muslims to be suicidal?
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Mikayeel
02-26-2008, 10:05 PM
No not all, I am saying that muslims themselfs are less likely to commit suicide, it could of been the none muslims.

All these countries at the top have a high number of atheists.
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Whatsthepoint
02-26-2008, 10:22 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
No not all, I am saying that muslims themselfs are less likely to commit suicide, it could of been the none muslims.

All these countries at the top have a high number of atheists.
Depends on what you percieve as high. I don't think there's a country in the world where the number of atheists exeeds the number of adherents to the biggest religion in the country. The percentage of muslim population of Khazakstan is greater than the percentage of atheists in any country in the world. The percentage of atheists in Luthania, supposedly the most suicidal country in the world, is lower than that of many countries at the bottom of the list.
And a higher percentage of the atheist popualtion is not the only factor common to all countries on top of the list. 8 out of 10 are post socialistic (and socialism is not only about atheism), going trough transition, some are still underdeveloped. There are many factors taht affect people to comit suicides.

What I want you to do is to find a psychological study, preferably a couple of tehm, that have showed that atheists are more liekly to comit suicide.
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Whatsthepoint
02-26-2008, 11:03 PM
Originally Posted by Hamada
The (few) muslim countries on there happens to have alot of none muslims!
the ones with higher muslim rate are not on the list. They may have a very high suicide rate, they just do not make stats about it.
Crime, suicides etc by country stats are not the most reliable stats you'll come across, as they only show the amount of reported cases of offences/suicides etc per capita. Not everything gets reported or gets misreported, especially in under developed countries. I think suicide may be one of the best examples of this.
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YusufNoor
02-27-2008, 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
What's the islamic reply on this one:

it's just my reply...

God is not created, he did not create himself.

Allah is not created, that is correct...

At least one thing in existence is not created (by god).

Allah is above the realm of our existence, everything that exists as creation was created by Allah...

God is not the creator of all things.

Allah, nowoothubillah is NOT a thing!

The question itself arouses some new questions, which I'll try to do later..

it's not hard...
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K.Venugopal
02-27-2008, 07:53 AM
Originally Posted by Dr.Trax
All of this evidence leads us to the conclusion that the universe works with a certain "consciousness". What, then, is the source of this consciousness? Surely it is neither the living nor the non-living beings in it.
We see the incredible complexity as well as the perfection of creation and wonder who created it all. We say a certain Allah created it and do not allow ourselves to wonder who created Allah. We are satisfied with the answer that Allah always existed. If Allah, a posited creator, can always exist, why could creation not have always existed?

When you say the universe works with a certain "consciousness", are you saying that the universe is conscious to a certain extent? Which would be to say that we, as parts of the universe, are also conscious to a certain extent. Of course, we are. So can we now assume that you and I, as individuals, have the 'consciousness' that the universe has in a greater measure? If you agree this far, it might not be difficult to see that total consciousness resides in that which is beyond the universe. We might call the total consciousness Allah. The best way, therefore, to know Allah is to begin with our consciousness and connect to the consciousness of Allah. This is the course open through meditation. And it also means that we, who are in essence our consciousness, are no different from Allah, who is consciousness itself. We, Allah and us, are of a kind. We are sparks while Allah is the fire. In short, we, the creation, are in essence no different from Allah. We have to know ourselves to know Allah.

Allah’s creation is only Allah’s manifestation. Islam does not recognize this. I would, most humbly, submit that this is Islam’s failing. Hinduism recognizes this (that creation is actually a manifestation) and this might explain why my thread (that Allah could not have create
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K.Venugopal
02-27-2008, 09:17 AM
My above post should continue: . . . and this might explain why my thread (that Allah could not have created life) does not seem to be largely acceptable in this forum.
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Malaikah
02-27-2008, 09:57 AM
Originally Posted by K.Venugopal
Allah’s creation is only Allah’s manifestation. Islam does not recognize this. I would, most humbly, submit that this is Islam’s failing. Hinduism recognizes this (that creation is actually a manifestation) and this might explain why my thread (that Allah could not have create
What on earth do you mean by that? Manifestation? that creation IS God? :omg:

The creation is a sign for us of what God is capable of doing - His Might, Power, His ability to create out of nothing, the awe and beauty of it all...

and this might explain why my thread (that Allah could not have created life) does not seem to be largely acceptable in this forum.
The thread is not unacceptable, what's unacceptable is the fact that the question has been answered time and time again, even by many non-Muslim members, and you still don't get it!
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------
02-27-2008, 10:25 AM
:salamext:

Don't you think this thread has served its purpose?!?!
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K.Venugopal
02-27-2008, 11:28 AM
Allah’s creation is only Allah’s manifestation.
Originally Posted by Malaikah
What on earth do you mean by that? Manifestation? that creation IS God? :omg:
Allah could not have created life. Many posts by Muslims in this thread have said that Allah is eternally alive. No Muslim would agree to the thesis that Allah does not have life. Therefore Allah could not have created life. Further, He could not have conducted the miracle of creation without life, for creation is essentially about life. Therefore, the only explanation of how 'creation' came about, with the major ingredient, life, never been created, is that Allah manifested as His creation. We speak of the creator as if He is not part of what we call creation because we have not fathomed deep into the miracle of existence. This is probably because our quest of understanding often remains at the level of belief.
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------
02-27-2008, 11:30 AM
:salamext:

^ Ur going around in circles mate.
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Whatsthepoint
02-27-2008, 11:36 AM
Allah, nowoothubillah is NOT a thing!
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
it's not hard...
Depends on how you interpret "all things". I wouldn't say a human being is a thing, yet the Quran suggests so..
Anyway, if an omnipotent being did not create everything there is, its omnipotence could be questioned. And your Allah did not create everything, as he did not create himself.
It all rather depends on interpretation of things like omnipotence, everything..
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YusufNoor
02-27-2008, 12:42 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Allah, nowoothubillah is NOT a thing!

Depends on how you interpret "all things". I wouldn't say a human being is a thing, yet the Quran suggests so..

you can see it feel it and touch it, can't you?

Anyway, if an omnipotent being did not create everything there is, its omnipotence could be questioned.

me doubts non-believers need excuses to question Allah's omnipotence...

And your Allah did not create everything, as he did not create himself.

but "creation" implies something that had to begin and iAllah s NOT a part of creation, so every created thing was created by Allah; and He is my Allah AND your Allah whether you choose to recognize it or not...

It all rather depends on interpretation of things like omnipotence, everything..

how about: if you had to be created, then you're not omnipotent!

Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

doubt needs no reason or excuse if you refuse to see the truth. the "not wanting to see the truth" will actually prevent you from seeing it, unless Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala decrees otherwise...

:w:
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Whatsthepoint
02-27-2008, 12:55 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

doubt needs no reason or excuse if you refuse to see the truth. the "not wanting to see the truth" will actually prevent you from seeing it, unless Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala decrees otherwise...

:w:
I've heard that before...Well, it may be true, but then it's Allah's fault if I don't see the truth. Very unfair this Allah of yours is. BTW: by saying your Allah, I am refering to your version of god, not god himself, should he exists.
As for the rest of your post: it seems we differ in interpretation/understanding of many things.
Are molecules things? I can't see them, feel them, touch them...
Well, I do not believe in a god, and as everyone, I try to justify my positions. I don't think you can disporove god's existence though, that's why I'm an agnostic.
It doesn't say he created everything created, it says he created all things, or every thing, according to the literal translation.
Tehre are many god-puzzles.
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Malaikah
02-27-2008, 01:00 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I've heard that before...Well, it may be true, but then it's Allah's fault if I don't see the truth. Very unfair this Allah of yours is. BTW: by saying your Allah, I am refering to your version of god, not god himself, should he exists.
Nope, it your own fault (not you specifically obviously). Allah hardens a persons heart because of their own evil actions.
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Whatsthepoint
02-27-2008, 01:05 PM
Originally Posted by Malaikah
Nope, it your own fault (not you specifically obviously). Allah hardens a persons heart because of their own evil actions.
Well, that's one major difference between Islam and Christianity.
I hope Allah does not consider me evil.:embarrass There was a time when my heart was very open for Islam and it's miracles and that stuff... but then it passed away.
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YusufNoor
02-27-2008, 02:54 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
I've heard that before...Well, it may be true, but then it's Allah's fault if I don't see the truth.

that's easy to say NOW, but on Qiyama not so much...

Very unfair this Allah of yours is. BTW:

there is nothing unfair about Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala at all! He needs nothing from us and we are in desperate need of Him!

by saying your Allah, I am refering to your version of god, not god himself, should he exists.

[rhetorical question:] please explain MY version of Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala! :)


As for the rest of your post: it seems we differ in interpretation/understanding of many things.
Are molecules things? I can't see them, feel them, touch them...

their existence can be shown...


Well, I do not believe in a god, and as everyone, I try to justify my positions. I don't think you can disporove god's existence though, that's why I'm an agnostic.

so maybe Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala hasn't given up on you yet or maybe you just aren't ready! Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala waited for the most perfect of times to bring me to Islam!(because He IS that fair! :D)

It doesn't say he created everything created, it says he created all things, or every thing, according to the literal translation.
Tehre are many god-puzzles.
Peace be upon those who follow the guidance,

have you ever really read the Qur'an? with some Tafseer?


I hope Allah does not consider me evil.

We can all hope and pray for that!

There was a time when my heart was very open for Islam and it's miracles and that stuff... but then it passed away.
May Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala return it to you and keep it with you and not take you away unless He is pleased with you! AMEEN!

:w:
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K.Venugopal
02-27-2008, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
Don't you think this thread has served its purpose?!?!
I see you are getting impatient. So long as relevant posts occur, threads would continue. When posts cease, threads die a natural death, or, let's say, it gets burnt out. But not without leaving Islamic Forum a legacy of insights on various aspects of an issue.
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Whatsthepoint
02-27-2008, 03:38 PM
Originally Posted by YusufNoor
[rhetorical question:] please explain MY version of Allah, Subhannahu Wa Ta' Aala!
your version = muslim version
their existence can be shown...
I thought theists claim the same for god...
And anyway, god does exist. Does it exists in reality? That I do not know, but I know there is a concept, an idea (actualy there are many) of god, and that's what I am trying to debate about.
have you ever really read the Qur'an? with some Tafseer?
Only a couple of verses and a few surahs. I've read the tafseers of some verses.
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ranma1/2
02-29-2008, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by crayon
I'm honestly dumbfounded at how anyone could think this way, even someone who doesn't acknowledge the existence of God. God gave you the ability to see, to hear, to taste, to smell, to touch, to experience emotions. Imagine we had to think about every time we needed to breathe, needed to control our digestion, respiration, hormone secretion, anything. Someone who gave you all of these blessings (and that's just looking at the human body, not the rest of creation), does not deserve to be worshiped?

If you really feel that way, I feel sorry for your parents. If you think the God who created you and everything else, what do you feel parents deserve? They raise you, discipline you, feed you, provide you with a home, etc. etc. According to your reasoning, they deserve even less than thanks. You don't have to obey them, or be kind to them, or anything. Truly a sad state.
why are you dumbfounded? do you worship your parents who had amore hands on approach in your creation?
as for my parents, i appreciate being born (thanks mom, dad) but i dont worship them (and i know they exists). Likewise if my parents never showed up, never let me know they existed, i would likly have no respect for them.
But my parents actually do exists in my life (unlike god who likes to play hide and seek) so they deserve more respect and thanks. However if they were not good people i would not likely give them any respect just because they were my blood.
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ranma1/2
02-29-2008, 12:34 AM
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
... The one who gave y..ou hands to type, and an intellect and intelligence to use does not deserve a thanks?
....
i think it would be stupid of it to be mad at us for using what it gave us.

and thanks sure, worship no. anything beyond a courtious thankyou, no.

(similar to thanks for the bar of chocolate.)
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ranma1/2
02-29-2008, 12:37 AM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
:salamext:

I think the answer has been given, and this thread needs to be closed before it gets out of hand... :mmokay:
i get tired of people requesting the closing of a thread when discussion is going on. its like they dont want to hear different opinions that disagree with their view.
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ranma1/2
02-29-2008, 12:47 AM
Originally Posted by Hamada
No no no, never would I say that. I am just going with the majoraty (People with no faith or believe are far more likely to kill them self. At the end of the day if ur life is not worth living due what ever kind of problems then suicide could b an optinion because there is no life after death...)

Religious people in my eyes r muslims btw! I dnt no about other religions, but ofcourse muslims get depressed some even get as far as suicide!

A minoroty though! That will ever get as far as Suicide. They perhaps weren't good muslims at all, otherwise they would of not killed them self.
got evidence for this statement? i would think those with faith would be more likely to kill themselves to get to their happy hunting grounds quicker.
(look at suicide bombers, they got plenty of faith) even excluding extremes many that believe in an after life are likely going to value their current life less believeing that there is something better aorund the corner. while those that beleive this is the only chance we have are more likely to hold on tight.
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Intisar
02-29-2008, 03:56 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
i get tired of people requesting the closing of a thread when discussion is going on. its like they dont want to hear different opinions that disagree with their view.
I have to agree with this statement. This discussion is interesting; for once people are being good and respectful to one another. :statisfie

As for the statement about Allaah needing a creator, which was mentioned a couple of pages ago, that's a logical fallacy. Allaah is the originator of all things; he is independent and does not need anything from any of the dwellers of the universe. Unlike his creations, whom depend on him for everything.

If Allaah has a creator, then it's a cycle, the creator of Allaah must have a creator, and so on and so forth. It's a cycle that never stops. Therefore, Allaah does not need a creator because he does not have a beginning or an origin.
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K.Venugopal
02-29-2008, 04:36 AM
Originally Posted by ranma1/2
... do you worship your parents who had amore hands on approach in your creation?
What is meant by "worship"?
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K.Venugopal
02-29-2008, 04:45 AM
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
As for the statement about Allaah needing a creator, which was mentioned a couple of pages ago, that's a logical fallacy. Allaah is the originator of all things; he is independent and does not need anything from any of the dwellers of the universe. Unlike his creations, whom depend on him for everything.

If Allaah has a creator, then it's a cycle, the creator of Allaah must have a creator, and so on and so forth. It's a cycle that never stops. Therefore, Allaah does not need a creator because he does not have a beginning or an origin.
A cycle. That's it. That's what life and death is about. That's what creation and destruction/dissolution is all about. "A cycle that never stops." That's eternity for you.
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Intisar
02-29-2008, 06:32 PM
^Actually, what I meant by a cycle is that if God were to be created, then his creator would need a creator, and so on and so forth (it would never end).

Life is a cycle, and so is creation, but the premise of God having a creator (thus making it a cycle) would be mean that there would be no end of creators. Everyone would need a creator. That's where Islam comes in, Allaah is the creator of all things, hidden and apparent. He has his own attributes and characteristics, far different from our own. And as stated before, he has no beginning or end. He does not beget, nor was he begotten. Allaah is Allaah. Nothing is before him, or supersedes him.
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czgibson
02-29-2008, 11:10 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
I have to agree with this statement. This discussion is interesting; for once people are being good and respectful to one another. :statisfie
I agree with it too. I think ranma hit the nail on the head in that post.

As for the statement about Allaah needing a creator, which was mentioned a couple of pages ago, that's a logical fallacy.
It is anything but. Here is a list of logical fallacies; I doubt you'll find it there.

When referring to the Argument from Design (which is, let's face it, the main argument that creationists have placed their trust in), a creationist might say:

"Look at how complex this life-form is! Do you see how perfectly its physiology is organised in order to make it well-equipped for life?"
or
"Did you know that if the fundamental physical constants of the Universe had been even slightly different, life could not have arisen on this planet? Isn't everything just right?"
or

"Did you hear the one about the watch found in the desert?

1. The complex inner-workings of a Watch necessitates an intelligent designer.
2. As with a Watch, the complexity of X (a particular organ or organism, the structure of the solar system, life, the entire universe) necessitates a designer."
In other words, the creationist is trying to get us to accept the general principle that anything that is complex must have a designer. So maybe there is a great designer of the universe. How complex must he be?

We've just been told that things that are complex necessarily have a designer, so this designer must surely have been designed too? Erm, no actually.

Allaah is the originator of all things; he is independent and does not need anything from any of the dwellers of the universe. Unlike his creations, whom depend on him for everything.
So we have something that is an exception to what the creationist just told us. His argument seemed plausible up to this point, but it's now straightforwardly self-contradictory.

If Allaah has a creator, then it's a cycle, the creator of Allaah must have a creator, and so on and so forth. It's a cycle that never stops. Therefore, Allaah does not need a creator because he does not have a beginning or an origin.
I've bolded 'therefore' in the above quote. It's a very suspicious 'therefore', I would say.

"Because we can't consider the possibility of an infinite regress, we choose to believe in god."

That's not really how faith works, is it?

Peace
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------
03-26-2008, 01:08 PM
:salamext:

I've bolded 'therefore' in the above quote. It's a very suspicious 'therefore', I would say.

"Because we can't consider the possibility of an infinite regress, we choose to believe in god."

That's not really how faith works, is it?
Thats not normally how discussions work is it?! She was trying to explain to you, as u full well know. Don't be picking daft things up.
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FatimaAsSideqah
03-26-2008, 10:20 PM
As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

Ok, He created mankind. But why? If you say, just to worship Him, another question comes up: Why to worship Him? What does He want to do with worship anyway? Someone may say to know Him, i.e. we worship Him to know Him. I’d say, it should be the other way around: We must know Allah in order to worship Him. This has been confirmed by many Qur’anic verses, one of them is the following:

Know, therefore, that there is no god but God, and ask forgiveness for thy fault, ...Surah 47 Verse 19

Allah also says:
There is no god but He: That is the witness of God, His angels, and those endued with knowledge, standing firm on justice. There is no god but He, the Exalted in Power, the Wise. Surah 3 Verse 18

So does it mean that our main purpose of existence is to worship God? Not exactly! When we say that man was created to worship Allah, this does not mean that Allah needs his/her worship. Almighty Allah is Ever-Rich, and He does not need our worship.
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FatimaAsSideqah
03-26-2008, 10:23 PM
Besides, if the universe had not been created, the never-ending perfection and beauty of the names and attributes of Allah Almighty would have never been known. This would have only been known by Allah. By manifesting the spiritual beauties of His names and attributes, Allah Almighty, besides beholding His own Beauty and Perfection on His own works, also wished to give a share to angels, man, and jinn from this honor and bestowal.

Regarding the question of whether to create the beings or not to, Allah made His Divine preference for creation, and this preference has become an interminable mercy for all creatures. Or else it is unthinkable that Allah’s, one of Whose names is Samed (everything is in need of Him but He is in need of nothing), creation of this universe stems from a necessity.
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barney
03-26-2008, 11:41 PM
Did Allah create the universe for himself?
Or for us?
Or for Mohammed?
( the hadeeth narrated by al-Haakim according to which Ibn ‘Abbaas said: “Allaah revealed to ‘Eesa (Jesus, peace be upon him): ‘O ‘Eesa, believe in Muhammad, and tell whoever you meet of your ummah to believe in him. For were it not for Muhammad, I would not have created Adam, and were it not for Muhammad, I would not have created Paradise and Hell. I created the Throne over the water and it would not settle until I wrote on it, Laa ilaaha ill-Allaah Muhammad Rasool Allaah ”

If for himself. What part do we play other than a fanbase?
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aminahjaan
03-27-2008, 09:17 PM
two words. No DUH!

of course he did, God is the almighty, the best, the most merciful, too good to be created. It's called faith.
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Azy
03-28-2008, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
As for the statement about Allaah needing a creator, which was mentioned a couple of pages ago, that's a logical fallacy. Allaah is the originator of all things; he is independent and does not need anything from any of the dwellers of the universe. Unlike his creations, whom depend on him for everything.

If Allaah has a creator, then it's a cycle, the creator of Allaah must have a creator, and so on and so forth. It's a cycle that never stops. Therefore, Allaah does not need a creator because he does not have a beginning or an origin.
I don't understand how you can see the logic just enough to get you to that point but then ignore it when it starts to work against your belief.

If it is plausible that Allah is capable or existing without a creator then why is it not plausible for the universe also?
Why is such a complex thing as an omnipotent, omniscient god able to just "be" when we are constantly told that a great many things we see everyday, though less complex, are proof of this world being created?
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------
03-28-2008, 01:48 PM
:salamext:

If it is plausible that Allah is capable or existing without a creator then why is it not plausible for the universe also?
Why is such a complex thing as an omnipotent, omniscient god able to just "be" when we are constantly told that a great many things we see everyday, though less complex, are proof of this world being created?
BECAUSE, if u try to use ur BRAIN, u would realise that EVERYTHING has a CREATOR. And the only creator of the universe is Allaah, whether u like it or not, whether u accept it or not!!
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Azy
03-28-2008, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
BECAUSE, if u try to use ur BRAIN, u would realise that EVERYTHING has a CREATOR. And the only creator of the universe is Allaah, whether u like it or not, whether u accept it or not!!
Don't you see what you're saying is just nonsense.
If everything needs a creator, then even god needs a creator.
If god doesn't need a creator, what is the reason for that, and why couldn't that reason possibly apply to the universe in general?

(Coz I sed so!"£! isn't a reason by the way)
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------
03-28-2008, 04:04 PM
:salamext:

^ dont u see that ur B-L-I-N-D?!
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Azy
03-28-2008, 04:20 PM
That isn't an answer to my question.
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------
03-28-2008, 04:29 PM
:salamext:

^ ur question has been answered matey, if u look through the thread.

Originally Posted by Sister-Ameena*
I have to agree with this statement. This discussion is interesting; for once people are being good and respectful to one another. :statisfie

As for the statement about Allaah needing a creator, which was mentioned a couple of pages ago, that's a logical fallacy. Allaah is the originator of all things; he is independent and does not need anything from any of the dwellers of the universe. Unlike his creations, whom depend on him for everything.

If Allaah has a creator, then it's a cycle, the creator of Allaah must have a creator, and so on and so forth. It's a cycle that never stops. Therefore, Allaah does not need a creator because he does not have a beginning or an origin.
After that if u dont understand it, u need help.
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AvarAllahNoor
03-28-2008, 04:36 PM
All Religions believe Allah created life. Refute that.
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AvarAllahNoor
03-28-2008, 04:40 PM
Originally Posted by Azy
Don't you see what you're saying is just nonsense.
If everything needs a creator, then even god needs a creator.
If god doesn't need a creator, what is the reason for that, and why couldn't that reason possibly apply to the universe in general?

(Coz I sed so!"£! isn't a reason by the way)
God exists, not merely as an idea or concept, but as a Real Entity, indescribable yet knowable and perceivable to anyone who is prepared to dedicate the time and energy to become perceptive to Gods persona. The God: For the believer God is too real and obvious to need any logical proof.

"'God is beyond colour and form, yet His/Her presence is clearly visible"' (GG, 74), and again, '"Nanak's Lord transcends the world as well as the scriptures of the east and the west, and yet He/She is clearly manifest'" (GG, 397).
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Whatsthepoint
03-28-2008, 04:55 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
All Religions believe Allah created life. Refute that.
1. not all religions are theistic
2. not all are monotheistic
3. some claim god and life are one and the same
4. some claim it was not god who created the material world
etc etc
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AvarAllahNoor
03-28-2008, 04:59 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
4. Some claim it was not god who created the material world
etc etc
Elaborate please. I've not heard of any that claim this.
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Whatsthepoint
03-28-2008, 05:12 PM
Originally Posted by AvarAllahNoor
Elaborate please. I've not heard of any that claim this.
Here's one:
http://altreligion.about.com/library...bl_yezidi2.htm
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FatimaAsSideqah
03-28-2008, 05:20 PM
Its just vicious circle! I think the answer been given.

If it keeps carry on, then I will asking the mods or admin to closed this thread.
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Azy
03-28-2008, 05:29 PM
{QUOTE=Sister-Ameena*]As for the statement about Allaah needing a creator, which was mentioned a couple of pages ago, that's a logical fallacy. Allaah is the originator of all things; he is independent and does not need anything from any of the dwellers of the universe. Unlike his creations, whom depend on him for everything.[/QUOTE]
Originally Posted by AhLÄÄM
^ ur question has been answered matey, if u look through the thread.
This is not a proof or an answer, it is simply repeating the claim that god is an independent eternal creator.

So far what you have told me :
1) Everything needs a creator
2) The creator doesn't need a creator

It doesn't take a PhD in philosophy to work out that these two statements are incompatible. So far you haven't given me anything but emotive hand-waving to explain why certain things need a creator and others don't.
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aadil77
03-28-2008, 05:50 PM
mate if your still not satisified ask God himself in a prayer or on the day of judgement:thumbs_up,
we believe God is the most high, almighty and above all things - so we tend not to question such things,
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Uthman
03-28-2008, 05:59 PM
All that we know about Allah is the "What" i.e. his attributes.

With regards to the "How", that is far beyond man's limited abilities of comprehension.
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Muhammad
03-28-2008, 06:02 PM
:sl: and Greetings,

I am not sure whether this thread is getting anywhere despite valid answers being given, and I have been asked to close the thread for that reason.

If I can summarise, there are only 3 possibilities as to how we came into being:

1. We were created from nothing. Nothing can come from "nothing", therefore this must be false.

2. We created ourselves. We know this is not true, or else we would be able to prevent ourselves from dying.

3. We were created. And this must have been by a Creator, thus we are obliged to accept whatever He says.

The question, "who created the creator" is itself wrong. Following from the above, let us ask what is the origin: the existence of the Creator or the non-existence of the Creator?

If you say it is the non-existence of the Creator, then how did creation come about?
The origin must therefore be the Creator - Allaah, Exalted be He, exists with no beginning nor end.

And with 16 pages of God-knows-what, I doubt there is much more to be said on the matter.

Thread Closed.
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