Is homosexuality chosen?

[Nerd]

Science has even shown genetic predisposition of homosexuality, along with hormonal influences during the prenatal stages of life which plays a significant role in determining sexuality. It also exists in nature as testified by the (documented) queer behaviour of bonobo apes, dolphins, birds, spotted hyenas, sheep and even fruit flies. Besides, only someone very delusional would think a person would ‘choose’ to break the biggest taboo that unfortunately exists by professing love for individuals of the same sex. Think about the adversity that they have to face, the disappointment of kin, the hardship of being looked down upon and vilified by both religion and society for as long as attitudes remain this intolerant.

LINKS REMOVED BY ADMIN-----SEE POST BELOW

[Woodrow]

The subject matter is a worth while topic of discussion. The links to the references were removed to avoid any misconceptions about the Islamic views of homosexuality.

I am not a scholar, all I can say is what I have personally read. I have not seen anything that condemns a person for being homosexual. However any sexual act outside of marriage is forbidden.

[Nerd]

I disagree; the links provided were scientific findings of the matter, but I respect your candor

[Abdul Fattah]

Hi it's a very difficult matter, and I'd like to point out that just as Woodrow, I hold that no person can judge another person. All we can do is state our opinion. And also repeat that as far as Islam is concerned, having homosexual urges is not a sin, only indulging those urges is.

Science has even shown genetic predisposition of homosexuality, along with hormonal influences during the prenatal stages of life which plays a significant role in determining sexuality.

Last I checked there is no evidence for predisposition, but If you can refer me to some new scientific articles that prove me wrong, I'd be very interested to read them. Secondly, at best if any such evidence would exist it would only show that certain people might have an inclination. Inclinations are different to predisposition in the sense that they don't undermine free will. Just because people are more inclined to it, doesn't mean they have no choice in it.

As for proving that it is indeed a matter of choice, that is very easy. There are many people with homosexual inclination who have chosen to fight their urges and live a heterosexual life. Of course I wouldn't be surprised if you'd reply to this argument that this is unnatural, and that they are fighting against their true nature. But then again I might reply that their urge to fight is just as natural as their urge to homosexuality! So by the same logic I could say that someone who indulges his homosexual urges and denies his urges to fight it is just as natural or unnatural as the one who does the opposite. So we'd be back at square one. I guess the problem we encounter here is defining what "natural" means. If you ask me, the most "natural" way would be the way that is biologically compatible. Of course non of this changes the fact that some people do choose to fight these inclinations, whether or not you judge that as natural.

It also exists in nature as testified by the (documented) queer behaviour of bonobo apes,

The bonobo apes is a very peculiar example, and I'm glad that you brought it up yourself. See advanced studies have showed that bonobo's use sex as currency. The weak perform sexual favors to the strong in return for food or protection. This social behavior doesn't only bring forth homosexuality, but also incest and pedophilia amongst bonobo apes. Now I take it I don't have to take this argument any further and you will see the flaw in justifying human actions by comparing it to animals. Another important flaw with comparing humans to animals is that humans have free will, which animals don't.

dolphins, birds, spotted hyenas, sheep and even fruit flies.

Yes there are many more to add to that row, and there are many important things to take into account for each one of them. Some thoughts on the top of my mind: Some animals for example only show this behavior when kept imprisoned with only male partners. Some animals would even attempt sex with different species when they have no other alternative.

Besides, only someone very delusional would think a person would ‘choose’ to break the biggest taboo that unfortunately exists by professing love for individuals of the same sex. Think about the adversity that they have to face, the disappointment of kin, the hardship of being looked down upon and vilified by both religion and society for as long as attitudes remain this intolerant.

Well I understand your argument, and while I do empathise with the hardships, the argument doesn't hold ground for the following possibilities.

1. A person can be convinced that he has no choice in the matter while he in fact does have one afterall. In that scenario his fatalistic attitude will be sufficient to surpass the mentioned sociological barrier.
2. A person can be indifferent to opinions of the world and reason that as long as the people close to him accept him, that is sufficient to him.
3. A person might have an inclination not to be intimidated, or an inclination to respond rebellious to any threat. In this case taboo and judgment will only fortify his dormant urges.
4. A person might get so frustrated and wound up by his desires that all other things seem irrelevant. After having secretly experimented, the barrier to come out of the closet might be lower.
5. A person might be in love, and his love might blind him to the consequences of his actions.

In other words, no I don't think it's delusional to state that people have a choice in the matter.

On a final note, I would like to bring your attention to the fact that there's a big difference between what people can choose and what they want to choose.

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[kirk]

It is normal that I am attracted to women. It is a natural instinct over which I have no control.

It is normal that gays attracted to each other. It is a natural instinct over which they have no control.

I hate being anywhere near gays but it is inbuilt - it is not learned.

k

[truemuslim]

no dont believe them they tryna get to ur minds and make it be legal forever

u should see how ppl think thesse days..mostly stupid. but usually devils work

[Abdul Fattah]

It is normal that I am attracted to women. It is a natural instinct over which I have no control.

It is normal that gays attracted to each other. It is a natural instinct over which they have no control.

I hate being anywhere near gays but it is inbuilt - it is not learned.

k

It's also normal for a kleptomaniac to steal and it's normal for a pyromaniac to start fires. It's normal for a person with obsessive compulsive behavior to clean a lot, more then normal. You missed the whole point of the thread. The question was is it a matter of choice. And just because it happens instinctively doesn't mean it can't be learned trough nurture. Pavlov's dogs instinctively drooled every time the person that fed him came by. Is that normal? Yes it's normal it's called instinctive conditioning. It's been proven to exist in humans to and it's just one of many examples how someone can "learn" something from circumstances and environments.

[Keltoi]

I agree with Woodrow on this one. Homosexuality as a physical urge isn't considered a sin as far as I'm aware...it is the homosexual act that is sinful. Perhaps some might not understand or accept the difference.

As for whether homosexuality is genetic or "chosen"...I have no idea. I'm not sure it really matters in the context of sin, which seems to be the topic here. There are many human tendencies that are natural and/or "chosen", and both types can be sinful.

[Nerd]

gays do not choose to be gay, maybe they are being tested by God and their hardship was to conceal their ‘sinful tendencies’ (and lead a life of self-deceit). we can equated this to the heterosexual temptation of lust saying we (meaning straight folk) were being similarly tested. To me this is like comparing the crossing of a vast canyon on a suspension bridge to crossing the same canyon on a suspended needle. Religion teaches us that this is apparently the will of God, the immaculately just!

[Woodrow]

gays do not choose to be gay, maybe they are being tested by God and their hardship was to conceal their ‘sinful tendencies’ (and lead a life of self-deceit). we can equated this to the heterosexual temptation of lust saying we (meaning straight folk) were being similarly tested. To me this is like comparing the crossing of a vast canyon on a suspension bridge to crossing the same canyon on a suspended needle. Religion teaches us that this is apparently the will of God, the immaculately just!

I agree that sexual orientation is not a choice. That is not the issue. The conflict comes in the issue of rights as to what activities can be allowed.

[ranma1/2]

homosexuality like heterosexuality, sexual preference (redhead, brunetter, skinny , fat, zaftig.. ect.) are a combination of nurture and nature.

[aamirsaab]

homosexuality like heterosexuality, sexual preference (redhead, brunetter, skinny , fat, zaftig.. ect.) are a combination of nurture and nature.

That's pretty much what I was going to say. Dangit ranma, you beat me to the punch!

Only thing I'd add is: The act is chosen. The thought-process is not.

[Malaikah]

To me this is like comparing the crossing of a vast canyon on a suspension bridge to crossing the same canyon on a suspended needle. Religion teaches us that this is apparently the will of God, the immaculately just!

That's too narrow minded - perhaps the test of being gay is harder than the test of controlling ones lust, but test are not limited to that and so maybe a gay person has a hard test in relation to his sexuality, but the rest of his tests might be easy, whereas the straight person might have different more difficult tests (non-lust related), which would add up to be the same as the gays tests.

For example, the straight person who had cancer, was orphaned and lives in poverty, as opposed to the gay person who is perfectly healthy, rich and has loving family and friends.

[ranma1/2]

..
Only thing I'd add is: The act is chosen. The thought-process is not.

as muchas eating, or sex in it self is chosen.

not mucha of a choice.

[aamirsaab]

as muchas eating, or sex in it self is chosen.

not mucha of a choice.

I do believe the act of sodomy requires intent far greater than eating :p.

But I suppose we could be arguing this point for many days...

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As Salaam Alaykum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

What most people fail to understand is this. Homosexuality can be and should be understood under the heading of pyschological disorders. i do not mean to be disrespectful when i say this so please read on. Like a paedophile... who cannot control his urges to have sex with children, like a serial rapist who feels an overwhelming need to satisfy his sexual desires by raping woman/men... One step further like a murderer who you ask why did you do it, and they say they do not know, they just had this urge. This urge i am referring to is not just a homosexual problem, many individuals suffer the need to do something haram. In soem cases an overwhelming need. Allah Ta'ala DID NOT make you this way, do not even consider this excuse. A murderer makes the same excuse, so does a pedophile, and a rapist, these are all classified as mental disorders, because you are allowing yourself to Do major Haram by thinking you have no control. Heterosexuals have the same desires. For some the urges are less destructive and less sinful when acted upon, for others like same sax attracted individuals the urges maybe stronger but this is your personal fight. A fight the Allah Ta'ala will Insha'Allah reward you for many times as he knows your struggle. Do not give up, you have to fight your urges because that is all homosexuality is, an Urge....

[Whatsthepoint]

You can't compare homosexuality to paedophilia or rape. A homosexual relationship consists of two consenting adults who love each other, want to be with each other etc, whereas rape is not a relationship at all.

I understand homosexual acts are a sin and if anyone wants to be a good muslim they are free to abstain from it. On the other hand, if they don't want to be a good muslim or believe homosexuality is ok in Islam, they should be allowed to have sex with whomever they will.

[ranma1/2]

well said, homosexuality between to adults is nothing like rape or pedophilia.
Also you got wonder about a god thats so concerned about our sexlife but doesnt care to show up in reality.

[crayon]

What about bestiality/zoophilia? Can that be compared to homosexuality? It's a psychological disorder.

[Nerd]

There is no genetic basis for pedophilia, murder, rape, incest, bestiality or necrophilia. Not that I am aware of anyway. Such perversions are caused almost always by social and psychological conditions. Rape is a social stigma too, I agree, unfortunately your argument’s coherence to the subject matter ends here (yet again). The prelude to the homosexuality I write in defense of is consensual.

Please refer to the following link:


http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm

[Abdul Fattah]

There is no genetic basis for pedophilia, murder, rape, incest, bestiality or necrophilia. Not that I am aware of anyway. Such perversions are caused almost always by social and psychological conditions. Rape is a social stigma too, I agree, unfortunately your argument’s coherence to the subject matter ends here (yet again). The prelude to the homosexuality I write in defense of is consensual.

I agree and disagree. Rape for example although it is enabled trough a distorted morality which is indeed often nurtured and nature, it is driven by one of the most basic sexual hetero urges. A gay person wouldn't be that much inclined to rape a women now would he? this is what I have been saying all along with the nature vs nurture. The debate on wheter it is strictly genetically or it is a matter of how one has been raised has been going on for decades. And right now it looks like both sides are loosing and in reality the cause is a combination of both! Not only genetic nature, and not only environmental nurture, but both. So yes, people definitely have a choice.
They can choose to indulge and nurture the feelings or they can choose not to do so. Often it won't be a cognative choice, but it's still nevertheless a choice.

http://www.skeptictank.org/gaygene.htm

[/QUOTE]
Interesting article, but as I suspect, all they have show is that there is a correlation between DNA and behavior. That is something obvious that has been expected all along. The problem is, how do you interpret that correlation? Is it a strict IF=>THEN relation, or rather an IF=>THEN_POSSIBLY. In other words this research doesn't prove that there is no choice in the matter.

[kirk]

Gays sexuality is not nurtured by their parents nor their school friends. Parents and school friends do not want the gays to be gay!

The only nurturing that happens is when a few gays get together and discuss their experiences – such as when they were shunned by their parents and by school friends.

K

[ranma1/2]

nurture can be several things. One could be the rejection or percieved rejection of the individual by society or particular members and the individual looking at othersources of acceptance. (nothing wrong with that).

[glo]

To me, a more interesting question than whether homosexuality is right or wrong, is how we approach homosexuals in our daily lives.

Biblically speaking, I agree that homosexuality is wrong. I understand the arguments of Christians who disagree with this, but personally speaking I think the Bible is quite clear on the issue ...

But that aside, speaking as a heterosexual woman, I cannot even begin to grasp the suffering homosexuals must go through - even in the 21st century.
The ridicule, the discrimination, the exclusion, the false beliefs about their sexuality ... and in some parts of the world the consequences are much worse!

Nerd put it well in his OP:

Think about the adversity that they have to face, the disappointment of kin, the hardship of being looked down upon and vilified by both religion and society for as long as attitudes remain this intolerant.

Gays and lesbians share the same humanity as we do!
Do they not deserve the same rights? And respect as human beings?

Peace

[Abdul Fattah]

Gays sexuality is not nurtured by their parents nor their school friends. Parents and school friends do not want the gays to be gay!

The only nurturing that happens is when a few gays get together and discuss their experiences – such as when they were shunned by their parents and by school friends.

K

The idea that nurturing only happens in the way that people want it to happen is false. I'll give an example. A father is a racist and biggot. His daughter is often discrimination because boys are better. Hence the daughter start hating the father and hates his ideas. The daughter would aslo appose strongly to his racism and feel she can relate to etnic minorities since she herself has been discriminated against. It wouldn't be uncommon for the daughter to drawn to people of other race. So in other words her father nurtured her the exact opposite way as he intended. Off course this example cannot be extrapolated to nurturing homosexuality as easily. My point simply is that nurturnig is more then a question of the things you "learn" on school or from your parents. Nurture can also happen trough experience and feelings, trough trauma, trough circumstances. Your argument that homosexuality cannot be nurtured from society since society is mostly against it is thus very narrow minded.

[ranma1/2]

also well said abdul,
nature. (DNA)
nurture (enviroment)

[Nerd]

This brings us to the question... if indeed homosexual attractions are natural = GENETIC...

Check these out:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1925
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3735668.stm
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519

What is/would be the Islamic ruling for homosexual individuals?

[Woodrow]

This brings us to the question... if indeed homosexual attractions are natural = GENETIC...

Check these out:

http://serendip.brynmawr.edu/exchange/node/1925
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/3735668.stm
http://www.newscientist.com/article.ns?id=dn6519

What is/would be the Islamic ruling for homosexual individuals?

I can not find anything that would relate to the person. The rulings I can find have to do with behaviors and actions, not with any personal labels.

[------]

:salamext:

I understand homosexual acts are a sin and if anyone wants to be a good muslim they are free to abstain from it. On the other hand, if they don't want to be a good muslim or believe homosexuality is ok in Islam, they should be allowed to have sex with whomever they will.

Sorry can I just make a comment here? Homosexuality sex is not proper sex anyway coz two people of the same gender - it doesn't work out. Yes there might be other acts of sex, but not sex as what it means originally.

Ok i think I've said enough *runs away* :muddlehea

[Nerd]

If a person is homosexual, and he/she is supposed to refrain from any sort of homosexual actions... is that their test on earth? and what are the Islamic rulings or punishments to homosexual acts?

[crayon]

If a person is homosexual, and he/she is supposed to refrain from any sort of homosexual actions... is that their test on earth?

Yes.


and what are the Islamic rulings or punishments to homosexual acts?

Execution.

///

[------]

:salamext:

^ A person isn't born homosexual, they turn into one by influence of society!!

[crayon]

Was that post to me?

I don't know the origin of homosexuality, but if someone does have those urges, like any other haram urge (fornication, drinking alchohol, etc.), then it is a test for them. If they do not abstain from those things then the hadd punishment should be carried out.

[Nerd]

Most people assume that if someone is homosexual, then there must have been some environmental factors, some childhood factors, or something in their life which made them the way they are. Such thoughts,again implies that they view homosexuality as something lesser than heterosexuality.

Being homosexual is not a choice. However, coming out, choosing that lifestyle is a choice. I think a lot of people do not get this and think that homosexuality is something that can be “cured” out of you.
As far as religion is concerned, if God is great, loving, the most merciful, I refuse to believe that that God punish you for a choice that you did not make, and most of all that God will not punish you for loving.

For all those people who oppose homosexuality on moral basis, I ask you, what is so bad about homosexuality? I think it is hard for us to accept homosexuality, only because we have been socialized in such a way from the beginning , where gender roles were defined for us and anything that moved away from such defined roles are seen as a “threat” and “deviant”.

Seriously, keeping religious scriptures aside, what is so ” natural” about marriage? What is so ” natural” about intercourse between heterosexuals? What is so ” natural” about girls playing with dolls and wearing make up, and boys being brave and not crying?

Again, aren’t we told all these by ” society”? …and at the end of the day, what is society? Isn’t it our own creation?

To really understand homosexuality means challenging all basis of society and being able to see how certain frameworks within our society are reinforced time over time to ensure the success of a certain group.

[------]

:salamext:

@ crayon- the other post was to Nerd

[glo]

Originally Posted by Nerd
If a person is homosexual, and he/she is supposed to refrain from any sort of homosexual actions... is that their test on earth?

Yes.


and what are the Islamic rulings or punishments to homosexual acts?

Execution. ///

This is a question for everybody, and not just for you, crayon:

If you found out that your son or brother or husband or best friend was actively gay, would you really call for his execution??? :?

[aadil77]

This is a question for everybody, and not just for you, crayon:

If you found out that your son or brother or husband or best friend was actively gay, would you really call for his execution??? :?

no , i'd try to change em first , and probly end up killin them anyway, nah jus jokin :Dbut they'd definately get a good beating

[glo]

no , i'd try to change em first , and probly end up killin them anyway, nah jus jokin :Dbut they'd definately get a good beating

Thanks for your reply, aadil.

Do you think it would change the way you feel about the person close to you, having found out that he is gay?
Would you still care for him? Trust him? Socialise with him? Be seen in public with him?

[Abdul Fattah]

I know of no evidence for the claims that homosexuality should be punished with execution. Could people who make claims like this please support their claims with Ayaath or hadeeth?

To Nerd,

Most people assume that if someone is homosexual, then there must have been some environmental factors, some childhood factors, or something in their life which made them the way they are. Such thoughts,again implies that they view homosexuality as something lesser than heterosexuality.

I think its a mixture of childhood factors + genetic inclination. Also, and I cannot stress this enough, in Islam people are never judged for what they are, but only judged for what they do!

Being homosexual is not a choice. However, coming out, choosing that lifestyle is a choice. I think a lot of people do not get this and think that homosexuality is something that can be “cured” out of you.

I wouldn't use the term curing, but I do think that a person who has these urges can still live a happy, normal, natural heterosexual life if he'd choose so. Of course the requirement is that he chooses so out of will, not because he feels forced or bullied into that choice. and you said it yourself, you think that it is a matter of choice.

As far as religion is concerned, if God is great, loving, the most merciful, I refuse to believe that that God punish you for a choice that you did not make, and most of all that God will not punish you for loving.

Yes completely true, you'll only be judged for your actions and choices, not for your nature or feelings.

For all those people who oppose homosexuality on moral basis, I ask you, what is so bad about homosexuality? I think it is hard for us to accept homosexuality, only because we have been socialized in such a way from the beginning , where gender roles were defined for us and anything that moved away from such defined roles are seen as a “threat” and “deviant”.

Well that's a hard question. There's several things to say, and none are absolutely conclusive.
First let us consider sodomy, since that is one of the biggest issues here.
Sodomy is forbidden not only between males, but also between male and female. There have been studies that showed that sodomy has a much higher chance of getting STD's. Several STD's are only transmittable by blood. However as well in the vagina as well as the anus, tiny fractures can cause bleeding. The difference however is that this is a lot more common in the anus then in the vagina, since it's more tight. Several other smaller problems can occur more frequently like hammeroids for example.
Second of all there's the problem of biology. Man and female were created in that way so they could have offspring. Two men can't form a natural family (or they would have to adopt or resort to other methods).
Thirdly there's a social issue. In Islam there's a separation of gender. The idea behind it, is so people wouldn't be tempted all the time, or at least not that much. This strengthens the family relationships. The first step for a person to fall in love with someone else is to get to know someone else. Keeping separation between genders thus protects the family. However, this only works for hetero people. That's just of the top of my head, I wouldn't be surprised if there'd be other issues.

Seriously, keeping religious scriptures aside, what is so ” natural” about marriage?

The most basic function of (an ideal) marriage is to provide both sides with security, guaranteed emotional support and protection. It also guarantees fathers looking out for their children.

What is so ” natural” about intercourse between heterosexuals?

Are you serious? How about the reproductive system? I mean to me asking what is natural about straight intercourse sounds like: "what so natural about making coffee with a coffee machine when you could just as well make tea with it?" Yeah sure, technically you can make tea with a coffee machine, but that's not what it's built to do.

What is so ” natural” about girls playing with dolls and wearing make up, and boys being brave and not crying?

Girls have natural advantages that make them better fit for nursing, and boys have natural advantages that make them better fit for protecting/hunting. Many of those advantages are obvious, others not. An example: woman's pupils are further from each other compared to men. Due to this they have a different field of vision. Men have a better three dimensional view, which allows them for example to make a spear hit a deer at 10m distance much better. Woman on the other hand have a more panoramic viewpoint allowing them to multitask better, or for example to keep an eye on 3 kids at the same time. And make no mistake, this aren't just cliché's, this is actually scientifically tested!

Again, aren’t we told all these by ” society”? …and at the end of the day, what is society? Isn’t it our own creation?

Our own creation, perhaps partially, but it was created like that based on the experience of all the generations who lived before you. They lived life, and "society" learned these things trough trial and error. And sure society will also teach wrong things. afterall humans are fallible, but there are logically sound reasons behind many of these social upheld regulations.

To really understand homosexuality means challenging all basis of society and being able to see how certain frameworks within our society are reinforced time over time to ensure the success of a certain group.

In all fairness, I do understand your argument, and see that there's a bigger picture behind it. For my part it's not a matter of not seeing the picture, but rather a matter of disagreeing with that particular picture. I guess that makes me a conservative, but to some extend I don't really object to that label.

[aadil77]

Most people assume that if someone is homosexual, then there must have been some environmental factors, some childhood factors, or something in their life which made them the way they are. Such thoughts,again implies that they view homosexuality as something lesser than heterosexuality.

Being homosexual is not a choice. However, coming out, choosing that lifestyle is a choice. I think a lot of people do not get this and think that homosexuality is something that can be “cured” out of you.
As far as religion is concerned, if God is great, loving, the most merciful, I refuse to believe that that God punish you for a choice that you did not make, and most of all that God will not punish you for loving.

For all those people who oppose homosexuality on moral basis, I ask you, what is so bad about homosexuality? I think it is hard for us to accept homosexuality, only because we have been socialized in such a way from the beginning , where gender roles were defined for us and anything that moved away from such defined roles are seen as a “threat” and “deviant”.

Seriously, keeping religious scriptures aside, what is so ” natural” about marriage? What is so ” natural” about intercourse between heterosexuals? What is so ” natural” about girls playing with dolls and wearing make up, and boys being brave and not crying?

Again, aren’t we told all these by ” society”? …and at the end of the day, what is society? Isn’t it our own creation?

To really understand homosexuality means challenging all basis of society and being able to see how certain frameworks within our society are reinforced time over time to ensure the success of a certain group.

------
and no mate we do get it, we're certain that no-one is born to be naturally attracted to the same sex, because thats how God created us to be, we're attracted to the opposite sex not the same! If that wasn't the case then why can't two women or men reproduce? ? Or even have sexual relations the proper way?
And you're implying that God has made some of us gay, and that we can't help it. Thats just a massive lie against God!
No - one is naturally attracted to the same sex - a simple test could prove that , if you get what I mean
What ever makes people want to practice this ---- is clearly from there own urges and queer desires, they just want to go a step further, try new stuff etc
Don't try and sympathise them and make it sound as if its perfectly normal, because clearly its not
It has EVERYTHING to with environmental factors , yes a boy playing with dolls will make him a girly girl, then when he grows up he'll feel that he can't fit in with the boys, then he'll start playin with girls, eventually start dressin up like em, and thats when he supposedly discovers that hes gays :ooh:

Its just society creating this category, which some start to feel that fit into

btw sorry for the abrupt manner , I have thing for queer folks, eg. theres a 'lad' in college who recenlty had hair extensions and's planning on surgery, everyones like --- when he/she goes by

[aadil77]

Thanks for your reply, aadil.

Do you think it would change the way you feel about the person close to you, having found out that he is gay?
Would you still care for him? Trust him? Socialise with him? Be seen in public with him?

hell yes it would, no I wouldn't care for them to a certain extent, no I would definately not choose to socialise with them and no I would not want to be seen in public with them even if it is accepted in that society

[aadil77]

I know of no evidence for the claims that homosexuality should be punished with execution. Could people who make claims like this please support their claims with Ayaath or hadeeth?

Bro have you read in the Quran about the People of Sodom and Prophet Saleh?
They basically carried on their inhumane acts even after the prophet Saleh(peace be upon him) offered his daughters to them, they carried on, they were sent a warning, then They were all destroyed

And Someone provide him with some evidence

[FatimaAsSideqah]

As salaam Alaykum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu

The 82nd verse of Surah Hud clearly stated the kind of disaster that befell the people of lut. “When Our Decree issued, We turned (the cities) upside down, and rained down on them brimstones hard as baked clay, spread, layer on layer”

The statement of “turning (the cities) upside down” implies that the region was totally destroyed by a violent earthquake.

Accordingly, The Lake of Lut, where the destruction took place, bears “obvious” evidence of such a disaster.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

For all those people who oppose homosexuality on moral basis, I ask you, what is so bad about homosexuality? I think it is hard for us to accept homosexuality, only because we have been socialized in such a way from the beginning , where gender roles were defined for us and anything that moved away from such defined roles are seen as a “threat” and “deviant”.

Seriously, keeping religious scriptures aside, what is so ” natural” about marriage? What is so ” natural” about intercourse between heterosexuals? What is so ” natural” about girls playing with dolls and wearing make up, and boys being brave and not crying?

I think the answer to your question lies in the natural disposition that God has created mankind upon. This is what makes things seem "natural" and others not. And we can clearly see the differences in men and women, hence their different roles in society. These have not been defined by people's choice, but rather by how they have been created.

So our view towards homosexuality is not derived from how we have been socialised, rather it is the sense of morality that God has instilled in human beings. In the same way that we perceive murder as wrong, so is homosexuality. Even a homosexual himself can see the deviation in his desire from that which is natural. Hence we can understand where the test comes into it - a person's sense of right and wrong must control their actions, not their desire for sinful acts.

Also - For previous discussions on homosexuality, where many of the points discussed in this thread have already been addressed before, please see:
http://www.islamicboard.com/547956-post9.html

For the punishment of homosexuality, one can refer to this article:
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=38622&ln=eng&

[ranma1/2]

Greetings,

I think the answer to your question lies in the natural disposition that God has created mankind upon. This is what makes things seem "natural" and others not. And we can clearly see the differences in men and women, hence their different roles in society. These have not been defined by people's choice, but rather by how they have been created.

So our view towards homosexuality is not derived from how we have been socialised, rather it is the sense of morality that God has instilled in human beings. In the same way that we perceive murder as wrong, so is homosexuality. Even a homosexual himself can see the deviation in his desire from that which is natural. Hence we can understand where the test comes into it - a person's sense of right and wrong must control their actions, not their desire for sinful acts.

.

i got to strongly disagree with this.
Natural is a horrible argument since homosexuality naturally occurs all in nature. Also Nature doesnt mean good as unnatural doesnt mean bad. The computer you have is unnatural. The mercury in the thermometer is natural.
I doubt you think your PC is bad and i doubt youd chug a cup of mercury.

Your views toward sexuality are derived from society. As for sense of morality, if god did instill one in humans then he instilled a variety of morals since these morals vary from society to society (almost as if society has something to do with morals)

[Malaikah]

I would just like to point out, if anyone has missed if the point, execution is for sodomy only, the sexual act, not for feelings a person may have.

If you found out that your son or brother or husband or best friend was actively gay, would you really call for his execution??? :?

Firstly, there is no execution for being gay, only for practising sodomy.

Secondly, if the person was found guilty by a fair process in court, why should they be pardoned just because they are related to me?

Would you call for your son or daughter to be let free, for example, from a life sentence because they murdered ten people just because they are your children?

Of course we will all feel sad for our relatives if they end up in such a predicament, what ever the crime, but that should not let us interfere with the process of justice.

Bro have you read in the Quran about the People of Sodom and Prophet Saleh?
They basically carried on their inhumane acts even after the prophet Saleh(peace be upon him) offered his daughters to them, they carried on, they were sent a warning, then They were all destroyed

And Someone provide him with some evidence

It was actually Prophet Lut, and they were not punished for being homosexual, they were punished for practising their lust n other men.

In other words, a person can be gay but never ever do any sexual act with another man, and therefore he is not sinful. It isn't the attraction that is punishable, only the action.

[ranma1/2]

well i personally dont think the punishment fits the crime.
if it matters that much to god let him deal the punishment out.

Would you think it fair if littering or reading a book was punishable by death?

[Abdul Fattah]

Again, could people who make claims about jurisprudence offer their proofs from the Qur'an or sunnah?

[arabianprincess]

I understand homosexual acts are a sin and if anyone wants to be a good muslim they are free to abstain from it. On the other hand, if they don't want to be a good muslim or believe homosexuality is ok in Islam, they should be allowed to have sex with whomever they will.[/QUOTE]


well when u become a muslim or any person... obviously u cant pick n choose wat u want .... u cant make things halal when they anit .. so if u believe that these r rite might as well .. dont call ur self a muslim... a real muslim do not believe its ok to be gay.. peace

[arabianprincess]

well i personally dont think the punishment fits the crime.
if it matters that much to god let him deal the punishment out.

Would you think it fair if littering or reading a book was punishable by death?

well in quran allah have told us how to deal with problems like that... so since god choose that pinishment then yes it should be done .. n no one cant stand against it.... plain n simple

[barney]

Christodelpian's beleive that "God should sort em all out".
They also beleive in scrapping the police and army for that reason.

[ranma1/2]

if its that important to god let him do his own dirty work.
i mean you die and sent to hell if you screwed up, killing them early pretty much gets rid of any chance of them improving themselves.

[barney]

http://www.glumbert.com/media/christiangene

New Breakthrough!:rollseyes

[glo]

Greeting, Malaikah :)

I would just like to point out, if anyone has missed if the point, execution is for sodomy only, the sexual act, not for feelings a person may have.

Originally Posted by glo
If you found out that your son or brother or husband or best friend was actively gay, would you really call for his execution???

Firstly, there is no execution for being gay, only for practising sodomy.

Please note that I wrote actively gay ... by that I mean being actively engaged in homosexual practices.

Secondly, if the person was found guilty by a fair process in court, why should they be pardoned just because they are related to me?

Would you call for your son or daughter to be let free, for example, from a life sentence because they murdered ten people just because they are your children?

Of course we will all feel sad for our relatives if they end up in such a predicament, what ever the crime, but that should not let us interfere with the process of justice.

So would your personal response to my question above be Yes?

[glo]

http://www.glumbert.com/media/christiangene

New Breakthrough!:rollseyes

I wish I'd kept my reps for this post! :D

[crayon]

I know of no evidence for the claims that homosexuality should be punished with execution. Could people who make claims like this please support their claims with Ayaath or hadeeth?

My apologies, should have included it in my post.

al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

islam q&a

[crayon]

This is a question for everybody, and not just for you, crayon:

If you found out that your son or brother or husband or best friend was actively gay, would you really call for his execution??? :?

I would not call for his execution in the sense that I'd go around yelling "HE'S GAY HE'S GAY, KILLLLLLLL HIM!!!", but if he was discovered and sentenced to execution, I would not object. He knows it's a sin, yet he committed it anyway. Sure it would suck, this is a father/brother/husband we're talking about, but justice doesn't just change when the person is related to you. And as aadil said, if I did find out, I would try to persuade them to stop, of course.

[Duncan Ferguson]

It's plain enough that that homosexuality can result as a process of nature or nurture. Distinct patterns can be seen, both in terms of the inheritance of male homosexuality through the female line, and in terms of the birth order of boys. This doesn't explain everything, of course.

So homosexuality can be clearly seen to be natural, in the sense of "occurring in nature", which is so easily conflated with its other meaning of "usual".

You may say that it's a sin, but the idea of sin doesn't truly reflect a state of morality, except in the special sense of a relationship with God. If a homosexual act harms no-one, then how can it be condemned as immoral?

[Snowflake]

I agree that sexual orientation is not a choice.

I believe there are two types of homosexuals.

1) genetically predispositioned
2) those who engage in homosexual acts out of lust.

I heard the first is a result of chromosome abnormalities (sumthin like that)
And the second when men only use men to satisfy sexual desire when no woman is available. It may sound rediculous but I know of cases in Pak. The men were OK after they got married. :X

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

i got to strongly disagree with this.
Natural is a horrible argument since homosexuality naturally occurs all in nature.

Whether it occurs naturally is debatable, but nevertheless, even if we say for argument's sake that it is natural, then as you said yourself, it doesn't mean that is is necessarily good. Hence I said that even a homosexual himself can see that his actions are morally wrong, regardless of whether he was born with such inclinations or not.

Also Nature doesnt mean good as unnatural doesnt mean bad. The computer you have is unnatural. The mercury in the thermometer is natural.
I doubt you think your PC is bad and i doubt youd chug a cup of mercury.

Here you agree with my point above. The human soul is inclined to much evil, and this is why the greatest struggle is the struggle against one's own self.

Your views toward sexuality are derived from society.

If they were, I would be in favour of approving of homosexuality, because that is what the society around me is doing. However, my views towards homosexuality are based upon the Law that God prescribed for His servants, and this Law is in accordance with the natural disposition upon which He created mankind.

As for sense of morality, if god did instill one in humans then he instilled a variety of morals since these morals vary from society to society (almost as if society has something to do with morals)

Well if we consider the basic sense of right and wrong, I believe that is universal to all. Murder is wrong regardless of which society you live in.

if its that important to god let him do his own dirty work.

This demonstrates a lack of understanding of the concept of God and His creation. A key point to bear in mind is that God has set out a clear law that must be implemented among His creation, such as the punishments for adultery and theft.

Furthermore, God gave us the responsibility to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. Among the teachings in Islam is that when we see something wrong, we should try to change it as much as we are able. We are ordered to stand up for justice. We must help one another in goodness and avoiding evil.

i mean you die and sent to hell if you screwed up, killing them early pretty much gets rid of any chance of them improving themselves.

Not so. The following should clarify:

The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said, with a group of his Sahaabah standing around him: “Come and give me your oath of allegiance, promising that you will not associate anything in worship with Allaah, or steal, or commit zinaa (illegal sexual activity), or kill your children, or utter slander intentionally forging falsehood (by wrongfully attributing illegitimate children to husbands) [cf 60:12], or disobey me with regard to anything good (ma’roof). Whoever among you fulfils this oath, his reward will be due from Allaah, and whoever commits any of these sins and is punished for it in this world, this will be an expiation for him. Whoever commits any of these sins and Allaah conceals it for him, then his case rests with Allaah – if He wills, He will punish him and if He wills, He will forgive him.” So they gave their oath of allegiance to him on that basis.

Al-Haafiz said in al-Fath (1/6): “What we learn from this hadeeth is that the carrying out of the punishment is an expiation for the sin, even if the one on whom the hadd is carried out does not repent. This is the view of the majority. It was also said that he has to repent – this was stated by some of the Taabi’een.”

The previous hadeeth was also narrated by al-Tirmidhi in his Sunan. After quoting it, he said:

“Al-Shaafa’i said concerning this topic: I have not heard any better indication than this hadeeth to show that the hudood (punishments) are an expiation for the people on whom they are carried out. Al-Shaafa’i said: if a person commits a sin and Allaah conceals it for him, I prefer for him to keep it concealed and to repent, keeping the matter between himself and Allaah. Something similar was narrated from Abu Bakr and ‘Umar, that they commanded a man to conceal his sin.” (Sunan al-Tirmidhi, 1439). So there is no need for the person who commits a punishable sin to go to the Qaadi (judge) and confess and ask for the hadd to be carried out on him; rather, he is encouraged to keep it to himself and to repent, keeping the matter between himself and Allaah, may He be glorified, and to do lots of righteous deeds, for good deeds cancel out bad deeds, and the one who repents from sin is like one who did not sin at all.

From: http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=6202&ln=eng

Peace.

[- Qatada -]

Regarding the idea that homosexuality is natural, simply because some animals do it.


Let's read about what other animals do when having sex:

VORACIOUS female spiders just cannot help trying to eat suitors before sex.

Why? It's their aggressive personalities.

Females of several spider and mantis species dine on their partners, but only after acquiring the sperm necessary to fertilise their eggs. By providing his mate with a good meal, the male increases his own reproductive success. But that doesn't explain the behaviour of females that opt for dinner instead of sex, as fishing spiders (Dolomedes triton) often do. "Eating your mate during or after copulating, that's no big deal. Eating your mate beforehand, that's weird," says Chadwick Johnson at the University of Toronto, Canada.

http://www.newscientist.com/channel/...efore-sex.html

So please, just because some animals do some things i.e. having sex with the same gender, or even eating their partner - it doesn't mean humans have to follow their example.



Thankyou.

[------]

:salamext:

Okay this thread is getting a bit +o( now

[Abdul Fattah]

My apologies, should have included it in my post.

al-Tirmidhi (1456), Abu Dawood (4462)and Ibn Maajah (2561) narrated that Ibn ‘Abbaas (may Allaah be pleased with him) said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever you find doing the action of the people of Loot, execute the one who does it and the one to whom it is done.”. Classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Tirmidhi.

islam q&a

But the people of Loot committed many crimes. Sodomy is one of them, but also adultery, incest, rape, orgies and so on. We already know there a punishment on adultery, so this hadeeth is insufficient to make a ruling on the punishment to sodomy.

[IbnAbdulHakim]

animals are just interesting, i feel like watching the national geographic channel now


oh btw, humans arent animals :)


maybe some are :p

[ranma1/2]

Regarding the idea that homosexuality is natural, simply because some animals do it.

.....[/INDENT]So please, just because some animals do some things i.e. having sex with the same gender, or even eating their partner - it doesn't mean humans have to follow their example.

Thankyou.

as stated earlier the argument that its natural or not fails. Natural does not mean good (mercury) and unatural does not mean bad (internet).

And it is homosexuality is natural.

So now that the natural argument is dead what is the problem with homosexuality between two consenting adults?

[ranma1/2]

But the people of Loot committed many crimes. Sodomy is one of them, but also adultery, incest, rape, orgies and so on. We already know there a punishment on adultery, so this hadeeth is insufficient to make a ruling on the punishment to sodomy.

good point, it doesnt say which action.

and we are animals.

[- Qatada -]

what is the problem with homosexuality between two consenting adults?

Do you think it's perfectly okay for a father and daughter to have sex? If the daughter is mature enough for it and consents [they don't have kids]?

[IbnAbdulHakim]

http://www.nypost.com/seven/09282006...paul_tharp.htm

[------]

:salamext:

"He asked me what it would be like to kiss me," she claimed.

You are kidding me.

[Nerd]

There is no genetic basis for pedophilia, murder, rape, incest, bestiality or necrophilia. Not that I am aware of anyway. Such perversions are caused almost always by social and psychological conditions. Rape is a social stigma too, I agree, unfortunately your argument’s coherence to the subject matter ends here (yet again). The prelude to the homosexuality I write in defense of is consensual. To which I have provided enough scientific evidence - if you can refer back to the discussion... that it is indeed genetic

[------]

:salamext:

^ No its not. U choose to be gay/lesbian/outcasts. :-\

[ranma1/2]

Do you think it's perfectly okay for a father and daughter to have sex? If the daughter is mature enough for it and consents [they don't have kids]?

quite frankly assuming that the father has had no unfair influence that is between those two adults. ( i personaly find it distastful but if they are both mentally fit and aware fo what they are doing then let them be.)

[tomtomsmom]

To me, a more interesting question than whether homosexuality is right or wrong, is how we approach homosexuals in our daily lives.

Biblically speaking, I agree that homosexuality is wrong. I understand the arguments of Christians who disagree with this, but personally speaking I think the Bible is quite clear on the issue ...

But that aside, speaking as a heterosexual woman, I cannot even begin to grasp the suffering homosexuals must go through - even in the 21st century.
The ridicule, the discrimination, the exclusion, the false beliefs about their sexuality ... and in some parts of the world the consequences are much worse!

Nerd put it well in his OP:


Gays and lesbians share the same humanity as we do!
Do they not deserve the same rights? And respect as human beings?

Peace

I think they deserve respect. I don't really care one way or another who someone decides to sleep with. Not my business. What is my business however are my children. At 7 years old, I don't want my son seeing two men kissing on what is supposed to be a children's video. Which by the way happened a few weeks ago. I just wish that respect would be given to the parents raising kids that don't want them exposed to it.

[------]

:salamext:

^ Why should we let them be?! Its disgusting and it should be stopped!!

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:


Bro nerd, we have to keep in mind that there's also research to argue that its environmental only.


that's just one link on a quick google search:
http://www.dunamai.com/articles/Chri...ty_genetic.htm



anyway, even if it is genetic - Allah trials people in different ways. I.e. a guy really loves a girl but she's married to someone else, will he obey his desires, or his Lord. :)



Just to end, i want to state to ranma that if sex with consent is allowed, then why is it forbidden in many countries, including UK and in many states of the US to get married to brothers/sisters, mothers/fathers etc?

http://www.theanswerbank.co.uk/News/Question229139.html


This is a nation which boasts about its democracy and excessive freedom. Yet they even forbid it. Why is this? Maybe because the masses disagree?


So sure, argue all you want. But the argument isn't going to get any further if you just express opinions or compare us to animals. Like you usually argue, its about facts.

[tomtomsmom]

:salamext:

^ Why should we let them be?! Its disgusting and it should be stopped!!

Because dear sister, it is not our place to judge. You are entitled to your own beliefs but not to tell others what theirs should be. That is a power that isn't your, or anyone else's, to take.

[- Qatada -]

:salamext:

^ Why should we let them be?! Its disgusting and it should be stopped!!

:wasalamex


I think we call them against it, but we cannot harm them. Like Prophet Lut was patient, and Allah will judge between them on the Day of Judgement.


In an Islamic state, it's not allowed and is punishable by the judge since evil cannot become widespread in society (same way adultery/fornication can't either) - since it brings greater evil, we know that already. And Allah knows best.

[crayon]

But the people of Loot committed many crimes. Sodomy is one of them, but also adultery, incest, rape, orgies and so on. We already know there a punishment on adultery, so this hadeeth is insufficient to make a ruling on the punishment to sodomy.

Fair enough.
I found another article that says there is a difference in opinion on this matter.. (pasted bits and pieces here)

"Homosexuality, moreover, is an abomination and a grave sin. In Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, clarifies the gravity of this abomination by saying: “Allah curses the one who does the actions (homosexual practices) of the people of Lut” repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: “If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers.” Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shari’ah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand.

However, death fall is not the sole penalty agreed upon by the Muslim Jurists as a punishment for this crime. The punishment here is controversial due to divergence of views among `Ulama in deducting ruling as regards this case from Shari`ah sources.

Focusing more on the question in point, the eminent Muslim scholar, Sheikh `Abdel Khaliq Hasan Ash-Shareef, states:

“As to the issue of how the homosexual person is judged in an Islamic State, the Companions of Prophet Muhammad, peace and blessing be upon him differed among themselves on this issue, and this led to different views maintained by Muslim Jurists. For example, in the Hanafi school of thought, the homosexual is punished through harsh beating, and if he/she repeats the act, death penalty is to be applied. As for the Shafi`i school of thought, the homosexual receives the same punishment of adultery (if he/she is married) or fornication (if not married). This means, that if the homosexual is married, he/she is stoned to death, while if single, he/she is whipped 100 times. Hence, the Shafi`i compares the punishment applied in the case of homosexuality with that of adultery and fornication, while the Hanafi differentiates between the two acts because in homosexuality, the anus (a place of impurity) may also be involved while in adultery (and fornication), the penis/vagina (which are reproductive parts) are involved. Some scholars hold the opinion that the homosexual should be thrown from a high building as a punishment for his crime, but other scholars maintain that he should be imprisoned until death.
”

Shedding more light on the legal penalty for homosexuality, Dr. Taha Jaber Al-`Alwani, President of the Graduate School of Islamic and Social Sciences and President of the Fiqh Council, states:

Actually, humans are not animals controlled by their sexual instincts, answering the call of sexual desires every time it is aroused in them. Rather, it is their responsibility to know how they can orient this craving, which is a trust Allah has implemented in them, both male and female, in addition to the will and power to choose, a blessing Allah has bestowed on humans; all this is what distinguishes them from the rest of the creatures in that they orient their conduct and do what is good.

In Hadith, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, clarifies the gravity of this abomination by saying: “Allah curses the one who does the actions of the people of Lut” repeating it three times; and he said in another Hadith: “If a man comes upon a man then they are both adulterers.” Here, he considered homosexuality tantamount to adultery in relation to the Shari’ah punishments because it is an abomination on the one hand and the definition of adultery applies to it on the other hand. It has also been narrated from the Companions (may Allah be pleased with them) that this crime deserves severe punishment more than that of adultery to insure its deterrence and restraint. Verily, the punishment here is the burning of both homosexuals (the actor and acted upon) or stoning them with rocks till death because Allah Most High stoned the people of Lut after demolishing their village.
As for lesbians, the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, said about them: "If a woman comes upon a woman, they are both Adulteresses”. The scholars mentioned that it is incumbent on the authority to enact a reprimand on lesbians that is fitting to the crime committed.

It is true that some of the scholars disagreed with these punishments not because of doubt that these actions constitute a crime, but because of a lack of divine textual stipulation for a worldly punishment (you were right brother, not enough evidence to make a specific hadd). But the actions of the Prophet’s Companions do indicate that in fact this crime has a worldly punishment, to be carried out by those in authority among the Muslims. The story of Abu Bakr Al-Siddiq when Khalid Ibn Al-Waleed wrote to him on this matter is famous and can be referenced in many sources.

[The story referred to above goes as follows:

"In his book Fat-h al-Qadir, the famous Hanafi scholar, Ibn al-Humam states:

“Al-Bayhaqi reported in his book Shu`ab al-Iman on the authority of Abu ad-Dunya that Abd al-`Aziz ibn Abi Hazim related from Dawud ibn Bakr who related from Muhammad ibn al-Mukadir the following:

“Khalid Ibn al-Walid wrote to Abu Bakr [seeking the legal ruling] concerning a man with whom another man had sexual intercourse. Thereupon, Abu Bakr gathered the Companions of the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him, and sought their opinion. `Ali, may Allah be pleased with him, was the strictest of all, saying, 'Only one nation disobeyed Allah by committing such sin and you know how Allah dealt with them. I see that we should burn the man with fire.’ The Companions unanimously agreed on this.” This incident is also mentioned by al-Waqidi under the subject of apostasy at the end of the section on the apostasy of Bani Salim.]”

source islamonline
i cut out bits and pieces that weren't relevant to this discussion.

[crayon]

hmmm.. I was reading another article and it states "In our fiqh literature, it (homosexuality) is referred to as the 'Behavior of the People of Lut' or `amal qawm Lut."

So if that indeed is the fiqh definition of the behavior of qawm lut, then the hadith does stand.

source islamonline again

[Keltoi]

I think it is clear that in Judaism, Christianity, and Islam, homosexual acts are considered an abomination. We can all agree on that much I'm sure.

However, I don't think God gives us any authority to inflict harm on these people in any way whatsoever. Speaking as a Christian of course. Give them warnings, show them mercy, and the rest is up to God.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

You may say that it's a sin, but the idea of sin doesn't truly reflect a state of morality, except in the special sense of a relationship with God. If a homosexual act harms no-one, then how can it be condemned as immoral?

I thought I would respond to this comment, as I believe it is wrong to say that "a homosexual act harm no-one". Going back to the question, 'what is so wrong about homosexuality?', the following was written as a reply in a much older discussion by our brother Ansar al-'Adl:

Homosexuality - including both gays and lesbians - is seen as a perversion of the natural order which God has instituted for humanity. It is in conflict with the nature of humanity, as a creation that procreates. Hence, it is wrong from a natural perspective. Homosexuality entails many dangerous practices that have disastrous medical consequences. Hence, it is wrong from a medical perspective. Homosexuality negates the basic block of society, a family, thus it demolishes social order at the grass roots level, as children are no longer raised with the compassion of a mother and guardianship of a father. Homosexuals consume from society yet contribute nothing in return. Hence, it is wrong from a societal perspective.

Now I know you made a point about 'animals doing it' somehwere in the thread in response to it being unnatural, I just can't find your statement. Anyway, my respone would be that, since when are animals practices the source for what is natural for human beings? I should hope that everyone would regard it as unnatural if a human female should happen to eat her mate during copulation, yet this is exactly what spiders do!

Hence we can realise that the action has consequences which affect the surrounding people too. If the homosexual happens to be a married man with a family, he has just torn apart his family structure if he leaves them for another man. What would the mother explain to her children? Furthermore, people who come out with such acts openly are supporting others like them and encouraging those with such inclinations to do the same. If an increasing proportion of society did this, quite clearly it would destroy social order, leaving women without partners and hindering the whole cycle of procreation to name just a couple of examples.

I think they deserve respect.

I disagree. They deserve disapproval. By giving them respect, we are encouraging more and more people to go down that road, when they could easily fight their inclinations if given appropriate support and guidance. If we care for the society in which we and our children grow up, then we should take an active part in voicing what is acceptable and what isn't based upon what we know to be good and what we know to be evil. If nobody said anything, people may take it as silent approval. But if those with a sense of right and wrong speak out, only then can it cause change.

However, I don't think God gives us any authority to inflict harm on these people in any way whatsoever. Speaking as a Christian of course. Give them warnings, show them mercy, and the rest is up to God.

To clarify again, if someone is a homosexual, that doesn't mean we kill them. If that person does homosexual acts publically, then they do need to be punished, and that is an expiation for their sins as I mentioned earlier: http://www.islamicboard.com/928771-post60.html


Some useful links:

:sl:The issue of homosexuality has already been discussed ad nauseum in the following thread:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...being-gay.html

Please see the following posts:

General comments
http://www.islamicboard.com/97335-post198.html (Being Gay)

Islamic Verdict
http://www.islamicboard.com/98510-post206.html (Being Gay)

From an empirical perspective:
http://www.islamicboard.com/98939-post213.html (Being Gay)
http://www.islamicboard.com/174648-post20.html (Prove that the Qur'an is NOT the word of God.)

How it relates to Islamic Penal Law
http://www.islamicboard.com/183927-post281.html (Being Gay)
http://www.islamicboard.com/184171-post284.html (Being Gay)

:w:

For the punishment of homosexuality, one can refer to this article:
http://www.islamqa.com/index.php?ref=38622&ln=eng&

[- Qatada -]

Another good point a brother made was that since some people like being called animals so much, then would it be moral to have sex with an animal, especially if the animal gives consent - by approaching the human sexually?


Just something to think about...

[barney]

The Ayatolla Khomeni made a fatwa in the seventies that If a Man was to have intercourse with an animal from outside his own village, then he was to pay that village for the animal.

[- Qatada -]

The Ayatolla Khomeni made a fatwa in the seventies that If a Man was to have intercourse with an animal from outside his own village, then he was to pay that village for the animal.

Khomeini isn't a part of mainstream Islam, this forum doesn't promote his beliefs, since his beliefs even contradict clear Qur'an.

[Mikayeel]

can i quickly ask whats the islamic penalty to homosexuality?

I strictly think it should be banned/stopped! Afterall Allah did create adam and eve, and not adam nd steve!

A question, if a baby is born gay, can it be identified as being gay in the stage when its first born?

[aadil77]

can i quickly ask whats the islamic penalty to homosexuality?

I strictly think it should be banned/stopped! Afterall Allah did create adam and eve, and not adam nd steve!

A question, if a baby is born gay, can it be identified as being gay in the stage when its first born?

bro read the thread and we don't beleive a baby can be born gay, just with slighlty girly characteristics eg: high voice, tendency to play with girl toys etc
if thats what you mean

[Mikayeel]

bro read the thread and we don't beleive a baby can be born gay, just with slighlty girly characteristics eg: high voice, tendency to play with girl toys etc
if thats what you mean

salam, ye i believe so to!:)

So if that is the case, then i don't understand why people keep saying a person is born gay....

If you can't indentify a baby as being gay or not than how can you accusethe poor thing as being born gay..?

[aadil77]

salam, ye i believe so to!:)

So if that is the case, then i don't understand why people keep saying a person is born gay....

If you can't indentify a baby as being gay or not than how can you accusethe poor thing as being born gay..?

people just want to create a special category for some people to fit into and associate all the filthy practices with it as a result of being 'gay',
its Fact that when the baby reaches puberty it WILL be attracted to the opposite sex not same, the acceptance of homsexuality has lead to people beleivng that they're actully 'gay'

sad just how things are goin out of hand

[barney]

people just want to create a special category for some people to fit into and associate all the filthy practices with it as a result of being 'gay',
its Fact that when the baby reaches puberty it WILL be attracted to the opposite sex not same, the acceptance of homsexuality has lead to people beleivng that they're actully 'gay'

sad just how things are goin out of hand

Thats not a fact at all. All evidence and testimonys point in the opposite direction.


The interesting thing for me is the common ground Islam and Christianity have on this.
In modern times the mantra is "Hate the act not the person".
The two are indivisable. Gay people have sex. Thats an intrinsic part of being gay! Ignoring this as an excuse not to have to go around stoning the heck out of them is a cop-out.

[Ahmed.]

Homosexuality is a desease; simple as.

We cannot really trust in all the biased 'scientific support' for homosexuality as we know that many such scientists could well be ideologically biased or they could have a conflict of interest; the only scientist who claimed that homosexuality is in the genes, was a homosexual himself and this is an example of the conflict of interest some scientists have.

Peace

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

The two are indivisable. Gay people have sex. Thats an intrinsic part of being gay! Ignoring this as an excuse not to have to go around stoning the heck out of them is a cop-out.

Are you saying that every person with such inclinations must definitely have commited the act aswell? How can you say with such certainty that this is "an intrinsic part of being gay"?

[Nerd]

I wasn’t comparing us to spotted hyenas or fruit flies or spiders or any other animal/insects for that matter. All I did was to merely suggest that such behavior exists in the animal kingdom and should not be considered ‘unnatural’. How you made that connection is beyond me.

What about men suffering from Klinefelter's syndrome??? who tend to appear, a bit feminine due to their genetic make-up (the way indeed God made them) .... is it his test on earth to try and appear more masculine and hide his true nature?

[ranma1/2]

Another good point a brother made was that since some people like being called animals so much, then would it be moral to have sex with an animal, especially if the animal gives consent - by approaching the human sexually?


Just something to think about...

now your being silly, humans being animals is a scientific fact. sex with other animals go into (in my opinion) that animals arenot mentally fit. (similarly i would not think an adult should have sex with someone that is mentally unable to understand their desisions.)

now if you can find a dolphin that can talk and can clearly show it understands what it is doing then feel free ( i may think your sick but hey) if not i would consider it similar to statutory rape.

[Nerd]

In summary:

So it is inherited?
No, it is not.

I'm confused. Isn't there is a "genetic component" to homosexuality?
Yes, but "component" is just a loose way of indicating genetic associations and linkages. This will not make sense unless you understand what, and how little, "linkage" and "association" really means.

What about all the evidence that shows that homosexuality "is genetic"?
There is not any, and none of the research itself claims there is; only the press and, sadly, certain researchers do-when speaking in sound bites to the public.

But isn't homosexuality "biologically in the brain"?
Of course it is. So is just about everything else. I'll bet people who pray regularly have certain enlarged portions of their brains!

So doesn't that mean that homosexuality is "innate"?
No more than prayer is. The brain changes with use or nonuse as much as muscles do-a good deal more, in fact. We just do not usually see it happening.

But doesn't homosexuality run in families?
Yes.

So you get it from your parents, right?
You get viruses from your parents, too, and some bad habits. Not everything that is familial is innate or genetic.

But it just seems to make sense. From the people I know there's a type-it's got to be inherited-that runs in families and a lot of these people are gay, right?
That is what associated traits are-but what exactly is the associated trait-or traits-you are detecting? If there is one thing the research confirms, it is that it is not "gayness" itself. That is why these traits are sometimes in evidence at a very early age, long before sexuality is shaped.

Refer: http://www.leaderu.com/jhs/satinover.html

[ranma1/2]

I think they deserve respect. I don't really care one way or another who someone decides to sleep with. Not my business. What is my business however are my children. At 7 years old, I don't want my son seeing two men kissing on what is supposed to be a children's video. Which by the way happened a few weeks ago. I just wish that respect would be given to the parents raising kids that don't want them exposed to it.

shouldnt you as a parent screen whats going on?

[ranma1/2]

.Just to end, i want to state to ranma that if sex with consent is allowed, then why is it forbidden in many countries, including UK and in many states of the US to get married to brothers/sisters, mothers/fathers etc?
....

It depends from society to society. Many have religious backgrounds in the laws. It just varies, im not sure what your point is. Are there potential health problems with inbreeding ? Yes. Is it morally wrong if two mentally fit adults decide to have sex. No. In my opinion. (are there ifs and or buts, yes.)

Also it use to be that interacial marriage/sex ect was not allowed. (did it make it immoral to do that?)

Women were not allowed to vote. (would it be immoral for htem to vote?)

Now lets go with anothe scenario, lets say this married couple discovers due to some freak mix up at birht thatthey are actually brother and sister.
They have had no undue influence on each other they are both mentally fit, should they be halled away to jail?

Inbreeding is also completely natural. ( i jsut dont recommend doing it.)

[barney]

Greetings,

Are you saying that every person with such inclinations must definitely have commited the act aswell? How can you say with such certainty that this is "an intrinsic part of being gay"?

Nope, there are Gay preists who bottle it up all their lives, theres gay Women who are so darned ugly they cant get a willing partner.

Im saying that being gay and the desire to have gay sex are indivisable.

I understand what your getting at. In a really bad analogy , its like saying "thou shalt not murder-for the penalty is jail" and a Psychopath bent on murder manages to restrain his emotions and not kill anyone, so he dosnt get jailed for it.

Problem is, I imagine the vast vast proportion of gays do have sex.
A religion that says "stone the Sodomites with stones(as opposed to cheesecakes) until they are dead" cant claim its a Gay freindly religion. I know Islam has never claimed it's gay freindly, like christianity is doing.
Christianity only jumps through these theological hoops because they can see the total hypocrisy with the message of a loving tolerant religion.

[aamirsaab]

:sl:

It's an interesting point about sources of morality. If you look to people who were racist against blacks, took slaves, had sex with 9 year olds and forbade people drinking water whilst standing up then I suppose you can justify anything.

Finally, you crack and it all comes out.
1) Muhammad [saw] was not racist to blacks. Here's a youtube vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Fb5NZ89R8
2) You really do know nothing about slavery - I've also given an explanation to this (click me
3) Social context - and has been explained on this site. Use the search function. The following links are additional reading material:
part 1
part 2
4) Drinking whilst standing up is HARMFUL to your body (ask your doctor)

There is innate morality and there is morality that is learned (though I prefer to call that ethics or cultural norms).

Gosh, I expected a whole lot more from you, not this anti-islamic trash. Really poor points on your behalf.

[Azy]

1) Muhammad [saw] was not racist to blacks. Here's a youtube vid: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R8Fb5NZ89R8

Is Tafsir al-Tabari not an authorative history according to muslims? What does Noah mean when he wishes Ham's descendants to become black and be slaves for the arabs?

2) You really do know nothing about slavery - I've also given an explanation to this

Yeah but this explanation seems unfinished. The abolition of slavery being a progression, but what happened to the next step? We've given slaves better rights, the next step would be to stop anyone being enslaved... someone seems to have forgotten to mention this bit.

3) Social context - and has been explained on this site.

Oh I am sorry for thinking that a man in his 40s is wrong should take a wife of 6 years old. It's ok if he waits until she's 9, so long as she's had her first period she's fair game. Would you marry off your own daughter at 6? Think about sitting down with a 6 year old girl, asking her father for her hand when she doesn't even yet fully understand the concept of marriage.

As for social context, I thought the messenger was sent to supercede the pagan rituals of the early arabs, not pander to them and reinforce them with his own actions. Keep your slaves, marry children, but be nice to them.

4) Drinking whilst standing up is HARMFUL to your body (ask your doctor)

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543524
Even this group of muftis don't have a definitive answer, if anything the outcome is that it's ok.
But when the messenger says "None of you should drink..." it sounds pretty definitive. Then he's seen doing it, and some of his companions. Sends a bit of a mixed message wouldn't you say?

Gosh, I expected a whole lot more from you, not this anti-islamic trash. Really poor points on your behalf.

My opinion would be the same if these things were written in the Bible, Torah or the Daily Telegraph.
If thinking it is wrong to marry off a girl of 6 to a man in his 40s is anti-Islamic, then yes I must be.
If thinking that people who are born a certain way should not be persecuted for actions which are the business of noone but the consenting parties and cause no harm to others is anti-Islamic, then yes I must be. Obviously I'm not taking into account the 'gayness' rubbing off on the rest of society and infecting them.
If I seem to have 'cracked', then the issue of human rights and persecution is the thing that would do it.

[- Qatada -]

Is Tafsir al-Tabari not an authorative history according to muslims? What does Noah mean when he wishes Ham's descendants to become black and be slaves for the arabs?

Did you know that al-tabari has weak narrations in his collection? Did you know that at-tabari's tareekh even has fabricated ahadith in? It is upto later scholars to verify the chains of narration to check their authenticity.

Yeah but this explanation seems unfinished. The abolition of slavery being a progression, but what happened to the next step? We've given slaves better rights, the next step would be to stop anyone being enslaved... someone seems to have forgotten to mention this bit.

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said:

" Those slaves are your brothers, only God gave you an upper hand over them. So let that who has his brother (i.e. slave) under him give him the same food he himself eats, and the same clothing as he himself wears. The master may not give his brother a task that is beyond his ability. If he does give him such task, let him lend him a hand."

Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29

Oh I am sorry for thinking that a man in his 40s is wrong should take a wife of 6 years old. It's ok if he waits until she's 9, so long as she's had her first period she's fair game. Would you marry off your own daughter at 6? Think about sitting down with a 6 year old girl, asking her father for her hand when she doesn't even yet fully understand the concept of marriage.

Do you even have proof for this statement? infact, your statement is so false, since abu bakr had already arranged a marriage (for the future) with Mut‘im ibn ‘Adi's son. But this marriage did not take place because mu'tim did not like the fact that abu bakr became muslim.

They were taught about marriage from an early age, since death was an easy factor amongst the harsh desert life there. The girls would be with their women and were prepared to enter marriage when they reached puberty.


For generations after generations through out human history people have been marrying at the age of 9 and 10. By 16 they were old enough to lead an entire battalion! For thousands and thousands of years human beings did not regard early marriages to be hazardous. If early pregnancies were hazardous, surely the human civilisation across the planet and through out the history should have noticed a pattern. Something like that cannot be missed out or ignored for thousands upon thousands of years so easily.

[aamirsaab]

http://www.islamonline.net/servlet/S...=1119503543524
Even this group of muftis don't have a definitive answer, if anything the outcome is that it's ok.
But when the messenger says "None of you should drink..." it sounds pretty definitive. Then he's seen doing it, and some of his companions. Sends a bit of a mixed message wouldn't you say?

Muhammad [saw] trumps all muftis. If a mufti says something different to the Prophet or Allah, then he is incorrect. That's the way it is.

Edit: We can continue this on another thread.

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

Can we please stick to the topic. It's all very well throwing in a handful of (off-topic) assertions, but if you really intend to discuss, they should be dealt with individually and in their proper place.

Please, start a different thread or continue in a relevant one next time.


Barney,

Ignoring this as an excuse not to have to go around stoning the heck out of them is a cop-out.

Regarding this comment, I think it was based on a misunderstanding. People are punished for their public actions, not their hidden feelings. It seemed you were saying that homosexuals should be punished on assumption of their actions, rather than having been proven guilty.

[Azy]

Did you know that al-tabari has weak narrations in his collection? Did you know that at-tabari's tareekh even has fabricated ahadith in? It is upto later scholars to verify the chains of narration to check their authenticity.

Tell me how you would verify the story of Noah. If it is considered weak or fabricated, why is it still included as history so that people can have this twisted view of other races.

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) said:

" Those slaves are your brothers, only God gave you an upper hand over them. So let that who has his brother (i.e. slave) under him give him the same food he himself eats, and the same clothing as he himself wears. The master may not give his brother a task that is beyond his ability. If he does give him such task, let him lend him a hand."
Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29

[23.5] And who guard their private parts,
[23.6] Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable

Have sex with your slaves, it's ok.

Do you even have proof for this statement?

Go have an intelligent conversation with a 6 year old.

Yeah for thousands of years men were having their way with young girls regardless of what they thought on the matter, so it's ok!
It may be news to you, but we've realised that people aren't mature enough to make responsible decisions when they're 6.
Do you never wonder why only a handful of middle eastern countries don't have an age limit, but the rest of the world considers it illegal to marry under the age of 14/15/16?

[- Qatada -]

Tell me how you would verify the story of Noah. If it is considered weak or fabricated, why is it still included as history so that people can have this twisted view of other races.

I simply say that i don't know presently, since i havn't studied the chain of narration, and i'm not even qualified in that science. Infact, you havn't even sourced what you stated - you just said its in At-Tabari.

[23.5] And who guard their private parts,
[23.6] Except before their mates or those whom their right hands possess, for they surely are not blameable

Have sex with your slaves, it's ok.

Allah has permitted that, like He's permitted marriage. So long as you treat them right and justly, so what?

Go have an intelligent conversation with a 6 year old.

I don't think you understand historical, social context.

Yeah for thousands of years men were having their way with young girls regardless of what they thought on the matter, so it's ok!
It may be news to you, but we've realised that people aren't mature enough to make responsible decisions when they're 6.

Yes, that's why when the girl reaches adulthood - she can annul the marriage if she chooses to do so. And before this, she doesn't have sex. So what's the problem?

Do you never wonder why only a handful of middle eastern countries don't have an age limit, but the rest of the world considers it illegal to marry under the age of 14/15/16?

You tell me, what is it? 14, 15 or 16 or 18? Did you know that someone is a peadophile in one European country compared to another in which he's not? Who's correct?

[truemuslim]

Yeah for thousands of years men were having their way with young girls regardless of what they thought on the matter, so it's ok!
It may be news to you, but we've realised that people aren't mature enough to make responsible decisions when they're 6.
Do you never wonder why only a handful of middle eastern countries don't have an age limit, but the rest of the world considers it illegal to marry under the age of 14/15/16?

and who exactly does that .... NOWADAYS?

[Azy]

I simply say that i don't know presently, since i havn't studied the chain of narration, and i'm not even qualified in that science. Infact, you havn't even sourced what you stated - you just said its in At-Tabari.

History of Al-Tabari Volume 2 - Prophets and Patriarchs, page 11.

Allah has permitted that, like He's permitted marriage. So long as you treat them right and justly, so what?

Erm, they're slaves, and you can have sex with them whether they like it or not... If you don't see what's wrong with that, then there's no point us talking.

I don't think you understand historical, social context.

I don't think you understand kids.

Yes, that's why when the girl reaches adulthood - she can annul the marriage if she chooses to do so. And before this, she doesn't have sex. So what's the problem?

...
So it's alright to go ahead with it because later when she reaches a point of sufficient mental faculty to understand her situation, she can say that she didn't want to do it.
Again, if you don't see what's wrong with that...

You tell me, what is it? 14, 15 or 16 or 18? Did you know that someone is a peadophile in one European country compared to another in which he's not? Who's correct?

It depends on the whether country in question uses a rough average age for maturity 14/15/16, or an higher age 17/18+ to be safe and include the maximum number of people.
I suppose that is based on how liberal the country is and whether they see greater benefit in allowing people who mature at the average age more freedom, or whether they prefer to focus on preventing abuse and using a higher age.
I doubt anyone in these countries would argue that a child under 10 is mature.
There are of course people who through diminished mental capacity are never mature, and the law in a lot countries prevents these people from entering into binding contracts (such as marriage).

[Azy]

and who exactly does that .... NOWADAYS?

errr, see the thread on Yemeni marriages somewhere.
A lot of middle eastern countries have no lower limit on marriagable age.

[truemuslim]

errr, see the thread on Yemeni marriages somewhere.
A lot of middle eastern countries have no lower limit on marriagable age.

yeh i had that thread. and i actually didn't say nothing about age. they get married at like 15/16 +
unless u talkin bout a generation ago?
and is lower age in marriage better than guys marrying guys? or teen pregnacy???

[Azy]

yeh i had that thread. and i actually didn't say nothing about age. they get married at like 15/16 +
unless u talkin bout a generation ago?
and is lower age in marriage better than guys marrying guys? or teen pregnacy???

Sorry there was no link in there
See here.

[truemuslim]

Sorry there was no link in there
See here.

yeh i think thats stupid and cruel, but still, not ALL arabs in ALL arab countries do this.

and what is better, lower age in marriage (not 8, or 9...or 10,11,12,13,14..more like...15+) or teen pregnacy and gay marriages?

[- Qatada -]

History of Al-Tabari Volume 2 - Prophets and Patriarchs, page 11.

I don't know the narrations authenticity since i'm not an expert on classification of hadith. However, i'll quote you what At-Tabari says at the beginning of his book:

If a certain man gets horrified by a certain incident that we reported in our book, then let him know that it did not come from us, but we only wrote down what we received from the narrators

[Tarikh Al-Tabari, 1/8].

These narrators could be authentic, weak or even fabricators. He just compiled the narrations with chain of narrators for future scholars to classify the narration.


I just want to quote a narration which will also clarify some things in regard to the Islamic stance on racism;

The Prophet said: 'There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab, nor for a fair-skinned person over a person with dark skin, nor for a dark-skinned person over a person with fair skin. Whoever is more pious and God-fearing is more deserving of honour.'(Musnad Ahmad)

http://www.islamicboard.com/userpage.php?userid=49

Erm, they're slaves, and you can have sex with them whether they like it or not... If you don't see what's wrong with that, then there's no point us talking.

Sahih Al Bukhari Volume 3, Book 46, Number 720:

Narrated Abu Musa:

Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said, “He who has a slave-girl and educates and treats her nicely and then manumits (free's her) and marries her, will get a double reward.”

I don't think you understand kids.
...

So it's alright to go ahead with it because later when she reaches a point of sufficient mental faculty to understand her situation, she can say that she didn't want to do it.

Didn't want to do what exactly?

It depends on the whether country in question uses a rough average age for maturity 14/15/16, or an higher age 17/18+ to be safe and include the maximum number of people.
I suppose that is based on how liberal the country is and whether they see greater benefit in allowing people who mature at the average age more freedom, or whether they prefer to focus on preventing abuse and using a higher age.
I doubt anyone in these countries would argue that a child under 10 is mature.
There are of course people who through diminished mental capacity are never mature, and the law in a lot countries prevents these people from entering into binding contracts (such as marriage).

Those who live in cold regions attain puberty at a much later age as compared with those living in hot regions where both male and female attain it at a quite early age. "The average temperature of the country or province," say the well-known authors of the bookWoman, "is considered the chief factor here, not only with regard to menstruation but as regards the whole of sexual development at puberty."5

Herman H. Ploss, Max Bartels and Paul Bartels, Woman, Volume I, Lord & Bransby, 1988, page 563.

This explains to us that people mature at an earlier age in hotter climates, such as Arabia, Africa etc. If this is the case - they are permitted to get married at an earlier age too. However, if there is harm in that - i.e. they aren't physically, mentally or emotionally prepared to get married - then they shouldn't get married.

I'll quote the following fatwa from Shaykh 'Abdul-'Azîz ibn Ahmad Ad-Durayhim:

As for the possible negative consequences of a man of such a mature age marrying such a young girl, it is patently obvious. The discrepancies in their capabilities, both physically and mentally, could bring about serious differences between the two of them that could lead to the failure of the marriage. This is something that has been seen and is well understood.

Therefore, I would not recommend such a marriage nor would I encourage it.

Moreover, with respect to what we have said about the legal validity of such a marriage, that refers to the validity of the contract itself. As for the effects of the marriage - such as privacy, intimacy and sexual relations - that is another matter entirely. Such things are permitted only if the girl is able to handle such a relationship without any harm whatsoever coming to. Otherwise, it is prohibited. This is because the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: "There shall be no harm nor the causing of harm."

It can also be seen in the very conduct of the Prophet (peace be upon him). He did not consummate his marriage with 'A’ishah for a number of years on account of her young age.

And from the fatwâ committee supervised by Shaykh 'Abdul-Wahhâb At-Turayrî we note:

The lawfulness of consummating a marriage at such an age is contingent on the maturity of the girl and that no harm would come to her.

So if any harm would come from it, then it is unlawful i.e. harâm.


Q: So why didn't Islam prohibit such practices that are harmful?

Actually, it did. It would be impossible for Islam to have an explicit prohibition on every dangerous behavior from jumping off a scyscraper to smoking, so Islam has provided a single broad injunction to cover all instances of harm:

The Prophet Muhammad pbuh said,

لا ضرر ولا ضر

"There is to be no harming, nor reciprocating of harm." (Musnad Ahmad, authenticated by Al-Albânî)

We see through the whole life of Aisha that she was in perfect harmony throughout the marriage and did not have any negative consequences through it, she excelled in religious affairs (she was from among the top 5 narrators of Prophetic traditions), aswell as advancing in the worldly affairs in which she focused on Medicine.


Since the whole discussion is on Aisha's marriage to the Messenger of Allah, we see that she never faced any harm whatsoever - rather she just benefitted herself and millions of others throughout history. Everyone else will be judged based on their circumstances independently.




Peace.

[Azy]

yeh i think thats stupid and cruel, but still, not ALL arabs in ALL arab countries do this.

Are you saying that the Prophet pbuh is stupid and cruel?
Obviously there are many people who see this practice for what it is, but because it is not forbidden by the quran and the prophet himself practiced it, it is open to abuse.

and what is better, lower age in marriage (not 8, or 9...or 10,11,12,13,14..more like...15+) or teen pregnacy and gay marriages?

Do you have to choose between the two?
And yeah back on the point, gay marriage is obviously better.

Two people, who we have pretty much agreed are born the way they are, in a loving relationship, doing things that they both consent to in the privacy of their homes.
or...
Two people, one of whom is forced into marrying someone when he/she is not mentally mature enough to decide for theirself.

- Qatada -, I'll have to address most of that post later, I'm leaving work shortly. I will say one thing though from my earlier post:

Q: So why didn't Islam prohibit such practices that are harmful?

Actually, it did. It would be impossible for Islam to have an explicit prohibition on every dangerous behavior from jumping off a scyscraper to smoking, so Islam has provided a single broad injunction to cover all instances of harm:

The Prophet pbuh saw fit to mention the dangers of drinking water while standing up, but left sexually violating a child to your own judgement.

[truemuslim]

Are you saying that the Prophet pbuh is stupid and cruel?
Obviously there are many people who see this practice for what it is, but because it is not forbidden by the quran and the prophet himself practiced it, it is open to abuse.
Do you have to choose between the two?
And yeah back on the point, gay marriage is obviously better.

Two people, who we have pretty much agreed are born the way they are, in a loving relationship, doing things that they both consent to in the privacy of their homes.
or...
Two people, one of whom is forced into marrying someone when he/she is not mentally mature enough to decide for theirself.

- Qatada -, I'll have to address most of that post later, I'm leaving work shortly. I will say one thing though from my earlier post:

The Prophet pbuh saw fit to mention the dangers of drinking water while standing up, but left sexually violating a child to your own judgement.

OMG UR IMPOSSIBLE!!!

Are you saying that the Prophet pbuh is stupid and cruel?

OOOK thats like when? in the three digit years? yeh... We are in the 21st centery...NO ONE does that! they do that back in da day not now. so its normal back then NOT now.
ok then why dont people argue about gay marriages? but argue about young marriages? and dont argue about teen preganacy but argue bout young marriages?

[Azy]

OOOK thats like when? in the three digit years? yeh... We are in the 21st centery...NO ONE does that! they do that back in da day not now. so its normal back then NOT now.
ok then why dont people argue about gay marriages? but argue about young marriages? and dont argue about teen preganacy but argue bout young marriages?

So what you're saying is that social conventions change over time and what might be unacceptable in one time is acceptable in another, even though it isn't spelled out in the scriptures?

[truemuslim]

So what you're saying is that social conventions change over time and what might be unacceptable in one time is acceptable in another, even though it isn't spelled out in the scriptures?

The prophet said we should ride camels for transportation...times change..camels are old school...cars develop...cars aint haram...cars are modern camels...
That is old school marriage... rasulallah didnt really even say to marry that young... years passed...decades passed...generation passed...that marriage is now normal marriage at normal ages...

[- Qatada -]

The Prophet pbuh saw fit to mention the dangers of drinking water while standing up, but left sexually violating a child to your own judgement.

:)


The narration mentions that there is to be no harm caused right? Therefore, we extract from the narration that if someone is not mature enough for marriage - then they shouldn't go through it if it will cause them harm. That's sufficient as an answer. Yet if someone is mature for it, as Aisha was - like i explained above - then that is allowed.


I don't see any confusion or error in that.



If you don't want to go any further in debate, then you don't have to. If you want to continue, that's your choice.




Peace.

[Azy]

truemuslim - You do see where this is going, don't you?

[truemuslim]

truemuslim - You do see where this is going, don't you?

yep.. in circles

[Azy]

I'll take that as a no

[Woodrow]

This thread seems to have developed into a fiqh discussion and has no resemblance to the original topic.


:threadclo: