Alleged Contradictions in Quran: Is Wine Consumption Good or Bad?

[Sarada]

If wine consumption is an abomination, then why are the righteous promised copious amounts of it in the Garden which they are promised in the afterlife?


"O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90). "

Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).

Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

[Al-Hanbali]

:salamext:

This is by no means a contradiction.

The reason why alcohol is not permitted in this world is due it's harmful and evil affects. It causes the person to be robbed of their mental faculties and causes numerous harmful affects on the body, as we all know.

In Jannat however, wine will not have these bad qualities as it does in the dunya. Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta'alaa) mentions:

"..A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, White, delicious to the drinkers, Wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby..." (37:45-47)

Maybe someone can further elaborate inshaAllaah.

Wallaahu A'lam.

[------]

:salamext:

The wine in Jannah will be for pleasure only, not to intoxicate the person.

Also

[يُسْقَوْنَ مِن رَّحِيقٍ مَّخْتُومٍ ]

(They will be given to drink of pure sealed Rahiq.) meaning, they will be given drink from the wine of Paradise. Ar-Rahiq is one of the names of the wine (in Paradise). Ibn Mas`ud, Ibn `Abbas, Mujahid, Al-Hasan, Qatadah and Ibn Zayd all said this. Ibn Mas`ud said concerning Allah's statement,

[خِتَـمُهُ مِسْكٌ]

(Sealed with musk,) "This means it will be mixed with musk.'' Al-`Awfi reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said, "Allah will make the wine have a pleasant aroma for them, so the last thing that He will place in it will be musk. Thus, it will be sealed with musk.'' Qatadah and Ad-Dahhak both said the same.

Source

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Sarada you could have asked why we are allowed to drink whine in jannah but not in earth but to call this a controdiction is clearly an error.

You yourself have realised that the hereafter and this world have completely different rulings. We will look different, feel different, hear differently, see differently, taste and think possibly differently. Whine WILL be different in the hereafter.

There are many things in this life which is forbidden due to the test of life but permitted in the hereafter. Music/wine etc, silk/gold (for men) extravagance etc many many things.



Please think twice before calling it a controdiction next time, it is very clear that there is NO controdiction

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[aminahjaan]

Your alligations are completely WRONG
like everyone has said above
wine will taste different in Jannat-al Furdos
because it will have no affects to you and if it had no affects on earth wine would be permissible, <---I don't know about THAT Allah knows best but judging by his reasoning it probably would be, but again Allah knows best.

[Nerd]

You yourself have realised that the hereafter and this world have completely different rulings. We will look different, feel different, hear differently, see differently, taste and think possibly differently. Whine WILL be different in the hereafter.

There are many things in this life which is forbidden due to the test of life but permitted in the hereafter. Music/wine etc, silk/gold (for men) extravagance etc many many things.

Does that mean, in the hereafter there won't be any religion or rulings etc?
The only thing forbidden to Adam and Hawwa was a fruit which grew in a tree in heaven.

[------]

:salamext:


In the Hereafter there will be either eternal bliss or eternal punishment.


From what I know, there will be no need for rulings because we will not have rebellious feelings in Paradise [anger hatred, etc] will be removed and we will have pure feelings.


In hell, lol you CANT be rebellious there coz erm...you cant. Lol it's beyond your power what will be happening to you, may Allaah save us Muslims from it, Ameen.

[aamirsaab]

Does that mean, in the hereafter there won't be any religion or rulings etc?
...

Most likely. Given what we are told about paradise, I have concluded that our psychological structure will be different. Firstly, we won't have jealousy nor will we have anger. In fact, as far as I know, there will be no form of negative reinforcement at all - this coupled with the fact that we will be completely content and satiated (we can have anything our heart desires in Paradise - with no negative of any kind in our body, this only leaves the good) means that paradise will actually be blissful.

In simpler terms, the rules we are bound by during our stay on earth will not be present in Heaven.

[SixTen]

If wine consumption is an abomination, then why are the righteous promised copious amounts of it in the Garden which they are promised in the afterlife?


"O ye who believe! Intoxicants and gambling, (dedication of) stones, and (divination by) arrows, are an abomination,- of Satan's handwork: eschew such (abomination), that ye may prosper," (5:90). "

Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).

Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

Wine, in this world and the heavens - is only similar in name - and no other way or form.

[Nerd]

^ ^Adam and Hawwa indeed did commit a sin in Heaven, even if they must have been (as you have assumed there) completely satisfied in heaven.

And they were asked to keep away from a tree, which means we cannot completely rule out the possibility that Humans might have to follow certain rules even within Heaven

[------]

:salamext:

Helloooooo!! That was different times!! At that time shaytaan was there...

And heaven and Paradise are 2 different things anyway...

[aamirsaab]

^ ^Adam and Hawwa indeed did commit a sin in Heaven, even if they must have been (as you have assumed there) completely satisfied in heaven.

And they were asked to keep away from a tree, which means we cannot completely rule out the possibility that Humans might have to follow certain rules even within Heaven

They were tempted by Shaytan who has since been banished to Hell. Also, from my knowledge, adam and hawa were in their human form in heaven. When we, inshallah, go we will be in a different body than the one we were in during our stay on earth. Different body - different psychological make up.

[Nerd]

:salamext:

Helloooooo!! That was different times!! At that time shaytaan was there...

And heaven and Paradise are 2 different things anyway...

I do understand that heaven and paradise are two different places. Thank you for pointing that out.

Like aamirsaab, have mentioned once in heaven maybe human beings will take a different form with a completely different mentality than we have on earth

Allah Knows the best

[------]

Re-read my post :-\

I didnt say Heaven and Hell

I said Paradise and Heaven

[Nerd]

^Sorry sister, it was a typo: its corrected now

[Sarada]

It seems most of you have slightly differing explanations. You all agree that this is not a contradiction, but, I have not yet seen a logical explanation. Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws. Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Is virtue not an absolute quality? How can a vice become a virtue?

[aamirsaab]

It seems most of you have slightly differing explanations. You all agree that this is not a contradiction, but, I have not yet seen a logical explanation. Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws. Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Is virtue not an absolute quality? How can a vice become a virtue?

The large majority of Islamic laws are all there to help society. Essentially, the laws (like all laws actually) are based entirely on negative reinforcement; you follow them to prevent something ''bad'' happening. In paradise, since our psychological (and biological for that matter) make up will be different and we will be free from several emotions such as greed, animosity, anger etc. there will be no need for Islamic laws or any law system. You will ascertain complete control.

Think of it as two seperate worlds: we have this one which is based on rules for our limited and imperfect body, and we have heaven which removes (seemingly all) rules because our body will be perfect in every sense of the word. And this coupled with the lack of any negative emotion will lead to a blissfull experience.

[Azy]

In Jannat however, wine will not have these bad qualities as it does in the dunya. Allaah (subhaanahu wa ta'alaa) mentions:

"..A cup from a gushing spring is brought round for them, White, delicious to the drinkers, Wherein there is no headache nor are they made mad thereby..." (37:45-47)

Where does it say that this spring is wine?

:salamext:

The wine in Jannah will be for pleasure only, not to intoxicate the person.

Forgive me if I've missed something but where does it say it will not intoxicate? I can only see references to it being made to smell nice.


If it is as SixTen said, similar in name only, why call it wine at all? It doesn't taste like wine, it doesn't intoxicate, why would anyone describe this as wine since the name is misleading and gives no indication as to the properties of the drink mentioned?

[Chuck]

If it is as SixTen said, similar in name only, why call it wine at all? It doesn't taste like wine, it doesn't intoxicate, why would anyone describe this as wine since the name is misleading and gives no indication as to the properties of the drink mentioned?

Because it will be a wine of different kind? Btw, it does mention one main difference in its properties -- it doesn't intoxicate.

[------]

:salamext:


Here is an answer to the first post;

Wine - Good or Bad?


14 October 2005
Hesham Azmy & Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
We read the missionary claim regarding this supposed “contradiction” as follows:

• Is wine good or bad? Is us forbidden on earth something that is truly good? Or is in Paradise not only allowed but provided in overflowing measures (rivers of…) something that is so bad that it is even called “Satan’s handiwork”?

Response
We believe that there can be no substitute for the ignorance exhibited, and that these concocted “problems” of the Christian missionaries is due to their sheer inability of understanding how tafsir is performed. In response to this alleged “contradiction” in the aforementioned verses, we would like to cite Harun Yahya’s “How Do The Unwise Interpret The Qur’an?” in order for the issue to be duly addressed:

• Wine-drinking in Heaven

One of the topics unwise people portray as a contradiction is how wine is served in Heaven when it is forbidden in this world. The verse that they use to make their claim reads:

“An image of the Garden which is promised to those who have fear for God: in it there are rivers of water which will never spoil and rivers of milk whose taste will never change and rivers of wine, delightful to all who drink it, and rivers of honey of undiluted purity; in it they will have fruit of every kind and forgiveness from their Lord. Is that like those who will be in the Fire timelessly, for ever, with boiling water to drink which lacerates their bowels?” (Surah Muhammad: 15)

As previously explained, this type of error of perception occurs when one is prejudiced, deliberately perverse, unable to reason, and has not grasped the Qur’an as a whole. Now, let us examine why such a thoughtless claim is illogical and baseless from several angles:
First of all, we are able to see that there is a difference between the drink served in Heaven and the one of this world from the following verse:

“With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication.” (Surat al-Waqi’ah: 18-19)

As can be seen, the drinks served in Heaven do not have any of the negative effects and attributes that alcoholic drinks in this world do. As mentioned in the verse, they do not cause headaches or confuse the mind. This means that even though they give pleasure, they do not in any way cause drunkenness or illness. So there is not the least inconsistency in such a drink being offered in Heaven.
Alcoholic drinks in this world, on the other hand, have always been portrayed in the Qur’an together with their many damaging and harmful attributes. Some of the verses that describe the destructive and negative nature of alcoholic drinks in this world are:

“You who have faith! Wine and gambling, stone altars and divining arrows are filth from the handiwork of Satan. Avoid them completely so that hopefully you will be successful. Satan wants to stir up enmity and hatred between you by means of wine and gambling, and to debar you from remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not then give them up?” (Surat al-Ma’idah: 90-91)

“They will ask you about wine and gambling. Say, ‘There is great sin in both of them and also certain benefits for mankind. But the sin in them is greater than the benefit.’” (Surat al-Baqarah: 219)

Obviously, it cannot be expected that characteristics of drinks that are forbidden in this world could exist in Heavenly ones. As God describes the Heavenly drinks, He emphasizes once more that they do not contain the harmful attributes of those in this world:

“…a cup from a flowing spring passing round among them, as white as driven snow, delicious to those who drink, which has no headache in it and does not leave them stupefied.” (Surat as-Saffat: 45-47)

The logic of anyone who sees this topic as a contradiction when God has made it all so clear must be seriously doubted. It is one of the Qur’an’s miracles that when a person approaches it with ignorance and ulterior motives, he will be incapable of understanding even the most obvious of topics. God describes the case of such a person in one of His verses:

“No self can have faith except with God’s permission. He places a blight on those who do not use their intellect.” (Surah Yunus: 100)

Secondly, in the Arabic text of the Qur’an the word khamr which stands for the word wine and all alcoholic drinks as we know them, is only mentioned in the above verse number 15 from Surah Muhammad as a drink served in Heaven. In all the other verses of the Qur’an, the word “sharab” is used for heavenly drinks, and means any type of drink in Arabic. In some English translations, the word sharab is translated as wine, whereas in Arabic it originates from the word “sherebe” and can be used to mean any non-alcoholic drink as well. One of the Qur’anic verses in which this word is mentioned where it means any drink is:

“Where they will recline, calling for plentiful fruit and drink (sharab)…” (Surah Sad: 51)

“They will wear green garments of fine silk and rich brocade. They will be adorned with silver bracelets. And their Lord will give them to drink of a pure draught (sharab) to drink.” (Surat al-Insan: 21)

Exegesis of Qur’an 56:19 according to the Muslim Commentators
The following are a collection of citations from the early Muslim commentators on the aforementioned verse to supplement Harun Yahya’s explanation. If this proves anything, it shows that missionaries never bother conferring Muslim sources whenever a “contradiction” appears to them.
Ibn Kathir

“la yusadda’un ‘anha wa la yunzifun” — Their heads do not suffer from aches and their minds are not lost; they are even stable in association with extreme enjoyment and pleasant taste. Ad-Dahak related on authority of Ibn Abbas that he said: Wine (khamr) has four characters: intoxication, headache, vomiting and (voiding) urine; Allah (glory be to Him) has mentioned the wine of Paradise and exalted it above these characters. Mujahid, ‘Ikrima, Sa’eed Ibn Jubair, ‘Atiyyah, Qatada and As-Sadi said about “la yusadda’un ‘anha” there is no headache in it. They said about “wa la yunzifun” it means it does not cause loss of mind to them.1

Al-Qurtubi

“la yusadda’un ‘anha” - Their heads do not suffer from aches due to drinking it meaning that it is a pleasure without harm on the contrary of the earthly drink. “wa la yunzifun” - It has been discussed in (Surat) As-Safat and it means that they do not get intoxicated till they lose their minds.2

Imam An-Nasafi

“la yusadda’un ‘anha” - Because of it. The reality of this expression is that it does not cause headache to them or that they are not separated from it. “wa la yunzifun” - They do not get intoxicated. Man has nazaf i.e., his mind is lost due to intoxication.3

As-Suyuti and Al-Mahalli

It means that it does not cause headache or loss of mind to them on the contrary of the earthly wine (khamr).4

Az-Zamakhshari, Al-Baidawi and Ash-Shawkani gave similar statements in their respective tafsir of the Qur’an.5
Conclusions
We have quoted Harun Yahya’s explanation of this so-called “contradiction” and supplemented it with additional citations from the Muslim commentators. Their methodology is consistent with the traditional method of Qur’anic exegesis, i.e., al-Qur’an yufassiru ba’duhu ba’dan (different parts of the Qur’an explain each other). What is given in a general way in one place is discussed in detail in some other place in the Qur’an. What is dealt with briefly at one place is expanded in some other place.
And only God knows best!

1. Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Vol. 7, p. 330 [back]
2. Tafsir-ul-Qurtubi, Vol. 17, p. 170 [back]
3. Tafsir-un-Nasafi, Vol. 2, p. 636 [back]
4. As-Suyuti and Al-Mahalli, Tafsir-ul-Galalin, p. 516 [back]
5. See Az-Zamakhshari, Tafsir-ul-Kashaf, Vol. 4, p. 331; Tafsir-ul-Baidawi, Vol. 5, p. 247 and Ash-Shawkani, Fath-ul-Qadir, Vol. 5, p. 199 [back]

SOURCE



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Disbelievers/challengers of the Qur'aan, eat your heart out!! [if thats the phrase lol]

[Umar001]

It seems most of you have slightly differing explanations. You all agree that this is not a contradiction, but, I have not yet seen a logical explanation. Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws. Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Is virtue not an absolute quality? How can a vice become a virtue?

As much as I have been trying to keep out of this thread I had to respond. Why do you make the above assumption? Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws.

Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Maybe due to the fact that this life and the next life are drastically different, for example, this life is a test, Allah tests us through differnt means in this life, whereas the next life is not a test. So why would there need to be the obeying of the same laws. That is point one.

Point two, some laws are to prevent immorality/sins, in paradise there will be none.

Point three, if one takes the haram out of a situation the situation is not haram, if I have a ham sandwich the sandwhich may be haram, but if I make another sandwich without the ham, then it is not haram. Similarly, does it not make sense that if one takes the haram parts out of a substance it seazes to be haram?

I don't see how that does not make sense, and Almighty God knows best.

[Azy]

Because it will be a wine of different kind? Btw, it does mention one main difference in its properties -- it doesn't intoxicate.

The text says no drinks will intoxicate, and that the smell and taste of wine will be different, which are really the only reasons anyone drinks it, those properties define a drink particularly one like wine.

If you took all the sugar and caffeine and colourings and flavourings out of Coke and replaced them with orange juice, would it make sense to still call it Coke?

[------]

So you drink wine to knock yourself out and totally go out of it?

Looooooooollllllll........... ahahahahahahaha ;D

Allaah knows what our desires are and they will be fulfilled in Jannah! InshaaAllaah!

[Azy]

It seems you've entered into foreign territory so you've decided the best course of action is ridicule and misrepresentation to cover the fact you don't know what you're talking about.
Also you never addressed the point.

[------]

Well u know what it is right? With you, there is always some thing or another that just leads to ridiculing, because ur so daymn make it out as ur so innocent! Which ur not! Ur here to ridicule OUR beliefs - you carry on doing that, coz wallaahi (I swear by Allaah) that on the Day of Judgement I will be SO glad seeing you dragged upon ur face into the hell fire!!

Getting back on topic; This post answers your question by the way.

And do you seriously think that wine in Heaven will be like wine on earth?! NO! It won't! The only reason why God has described things in Paradise to us in these words is because we are familiar with them! But in Jannah will be something that no eye has ever seen or no ear has ever heard!

Good luck!

[NYCmuslim]

We should keep in mind not to take the descriptions of heaven too literally. The akhira is out of the reaches of our earthly perception and senses. The descriptions given in the Quran of heaven (and hell) are there to connect to our current senses and give us an idea of how blissful or tormenting the afterlife is.

Peace

[Azy]

Well u know what it is right? With you, there is always some thing or another that just leads to ridiculing, because ur so daymn make it out as ur so innocent! Which ur not! Ur here to ridicule OUR beliefs

Which makes it ok to ridicule others?

Seriously though that's not what I come here for. Questioning other people helps me get to the root of what I really think and why I think it.

you carry on doing that, coz wallaahi (I swear by Allaah) that on the Day of Judgement I will be SO glad seeing you dragged upon ur face into the hell fire!!

Bit malicious that ;)

Getting back on topic; This post answers your question by the way.
And do you seriously think that wine in Heaven will be like wine on earth?! NO! It won't! The only reason why God has described things in Paradise to us in these words is because we are familiar with them! But in Jannah will be something that no eye has ever seen or no ear has ever heard!

Doesn't really answer the question, partly but not quite.

Seems very odd that the drinks in heaven are described in terms of drinks on earth that no muslim should have experienced. I just don't understand the point of describing something that's not the same as the word you're using and none of your followers have ever drunk anyway.

[------]

Because it's something made for paradise for believers pleasure NOT for this earth and for disbelievers pleasure.

How do u expect God to reward people that dont even believe in Him?!

[aamirsaab]

The text says no drinks will intoxicate, and that the smell and taste of wine will be different, which are really the only reasons anyone drinks it, those properties define a drink particularly one like wine.

If you took all the sugar and caffeine and colourings and flavourings out of Coke and replaced them with orange juice, would it make sense to still call it Coke?

Perhaps it is called wine in the Quran simply so we can relate to it. I mean, if it was called Dr Pepper or something, people wouldn't understand what it meant - alternatively, it could simply mean that: ''yeah it's wine without all the bad'' (hence the lack of intoxicant and smell etc).

Overall though, I think nycmuslim's post was quite succint: we shouldn't take the description too literally. None of us have been there and tasted it ;)

[Azy]

Perhaps it is called wine in the Quran simply so we can relate to it.

This is exactly what I'm talking about... can you relate to it? As a muslim surely the answer would be no.

I do think you're right that it's meant to be more of a metaphorical description, it's just the choice of words seems very strange to me.

[------]

Who are we to crticise the words chosen by God? Astagfirullah.

[aamirsaab]

This is exactly what I'm talking about... can you relate to it? As a muslim surely the answer would be no.

By relate I mean in the word used as opposed to the actual product - most muslims know what wine is seeing as it contains alcohol and what not. Just because we aren't allowed to drink it, doesn't mean we don't know what it is :p.

I do think you're right that it's meant to be more of a metaphorical description, it's just the choice of words seems very strange to me.

I'll have a read up in the translations of those quranic ayats. Maybe a scholars interpretation will yield an answer (they usually contain some sort of historical relevance to the ayats and why they were revealed, etc).

Overall though, I'm fairly certain that the usage of the word 'wine' in the Quran is indeed metaphorical as opposed to say a contradiction or an absolute (infact, I don't even think it is supposed to have any deeper meaning to it other than the name of the drink!)

[snakelegs]

We should keep in mind not to take the descriptions of heaven too literally. The akhira is out of the reaches of our earthly perception and senses. The descriptions given in the Quran of heaven (and hell) are there to connect to our current senses and give us an idea of how blissful or tormenting the afterlife is.

Peace

:thumbs_up
this plus the fact that the qur'an itself explains that it is different seem to answer the question quite nicely, i think.

[جوري]

Seems very odd that the drinks in heaven are described in terms of drinks on earth that no muslim should have experienced. I just don't understand the point of describing something that's not the same as the word you're using and none of your followers have ever drunk anyway.

Early Arabs used to drink two alcoholic beverages, one made of Ginger considered 'Hot', and one made with camphor, considered cool.. the prohibition of liquor wasn't complete and abrupt in one stage.. as is stated

• in the verse 2:219
• They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah make clear to you His Signs: in order that ye may consider.

So who says No muslim ever knew what an alcoholic beverage is?

surely heaven has that which no eye has seen nor ears have heard, but Allah swt is giving us assimilations of things we can relate too...

as stated prior, if it is denoted in the Quran that there is a place called 'Tasneem' you'd shrug your shoulder pffft? so what?..
unless it is likened to a 'spring' then you can have some mental image of what it might be, though not fully capturing it..

http://books.google.com/books?id=_1n...um=6&ct=result

hope that helps...

[BlackMamba]

The word use to describe the drink in paradise is "sharab", does that word necessarily mean wine or can it mean any drink? And why is "khamr" used to describe the wine that is prohibited on earth?

[جوري]

Terms like 'mizajoho min tasneem' does denote wine whose very dregs are from the spring (tasneem), or of Musk etc

Most good wines aren't about the alcoholic contents but about the body of flavors that have been aged and linger on the palate.. hence you'd find a description like a sauvignon, is herbaceous with tropical aromas
or a chenin blanc fresh, fragrant with peach aroma medium bodied and fruity..
you can have a look here
http://www.spierrestaurants.co.za/dl/Jonk_wine.pdf

You will not see wine described as chablis ethanol 98%
or cabernet mostly isopropyl ( as illegal as that is) but hope you get the anaology?
because it isn't about the alcohol..
I'd hate to say this, but if you know about wine, then you'll actually get a full appreciation of what it means to have a drink described with dregs in musk or zanjabeel etc.. It is really a very deep description..
and undoubtedly from the mere description there is nothing earthy about it...

Hope that helps, especially the disagreeable ones, who thinks all provincial oafs?!


:w:

[MSalman]

As-Salamu 'Alaykum

Wine, in this world and the heavens - is only similar in name - and no other way or form.

but can't be there different kind of wine, which is not intoxicant?

I'm amazed that the attackers can come up with such silly arguments which have obvious answers and in fact given in the very ayah!

[Eeman]

As much as I have been trying to keep out of this thread I had to respond. Why do you make the above assumption? Surely, when one is in paradise, one should still obey Islamic Laws.

Why would there be one law for this life, and another for the afterlife? Maybe due to the fact that this life and the next life are drastically different, for example, this life is a test, Allah tests us through differnt means in this life, whereas the next life is not a test. So why would there need to be the obeying of the same laws. That is point one.

Point two, some laws are to prevent immorality/sins, in paradise there will be none.

Point three, if one takes the haram out of a situation the situation is not haram, if I have a ham sandwich the sandwhich may be haram, but if I make another sandwich without the ham, then it is not haram. Similarly, does it not make sense that if one takes the haram parts out of a substance it seazes to be haram?

I don't see how that does not make sense, and Almighty God knows best.

I so agree with you brother!!!!

sometimes it's just soooooooooo hard to bite your tongue!!!

[Eeman]

Can i just say that from my understanding heaven and paradise are two different things,
heaven is not where you go to in the hereafter if you have been a true believer its paradise!!!
heaven is the seven heavens that Allah swt mentions in the Qur'an i remember once reading somewhere where it stated that the 7 heavens maybe a reference to 7 galaxies.
i'll try to find you the article InshaAllah.

[Nerd]

^arent Heaven and Paradise synonyms?

[Eeman]

^arent Heaven and Paradise synonyms?

they are nerd but i am trying to find this article on it whic i read a few years back, InshaAllah when i find it i'll post it then it'll explain but i do not remember much on top of my head so i do not wanna talk mumbo jumbo and give wrong info.


salam

[------]

:salamext:

NO, Heaven and paradise ARE completely 2 different things.

Paradise = Jannah
Heaven = Samaa'

[snakelegs]

so jannah = firdaus? i never realized that before. :muddlehea
i thought paradise was firdaus and jannah was heaven.
so i learned something - thanks.

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

I wonder why it's so hard to comprehend that Jannah will be completely different from an imperfect world as such that we are living in! It's kinda silly to think that you go through life through tests and InshaAllah pass and then when you will be rewarded, you expect more rules in the hereafter. Makes me wonder lol....Good grief man.

[Chuck]

I wonder why it's so hard to comprehend that Jannah will be completely different from an imperfect world as such that we are living in! It's kinda silly to think that you go through life through tests and InshaAllah pass and then when you will be rewarded, you expect more rules in the hereafter. Makes me wonder lol....Good grief man.

Well said sis :thumbs_up

[Chuck]

so jannah = firdaus? i never realized that before. :muddlehea
i thought paradise was firdaus and jannah was heaven.
so i learned something - thanks.

firdaus is one type of jannah. There are different levels/types of jannah, I think this the best one, if I remember correctly.

[Khayal]

so jannah = firdaus? i never realized that before. :muddlehea
i thought paradise was firdaus and jannah was heaven.
so i learned something - thanks.

the Messenger of Allah said:
(If you ask Allah for Paradise, then ask him for Al-Firdaws, for it is the highest part of Paradise, in the middle of Paradise, and from it spring the rivers of Paradise, and above it is the (Mighty) Throne of the Most Merciful.)

.

[------]

firdaus is one type of jannah. There are different levels/types of jannah, I think this the best one, if I remember correctly.

:salamext:

:thumbs_up

[czgibson]

Greetings,

There's one aspect of this question that hasn't really been addressed. As Sarada said: How can a vice become a virtue?

Why is it that wine, something that Muslims view as bad and are forbidden from drinking during their lives, is used as one of the enticements of paradise?

Fair enough, perhaps the wine in paradise would be different, but isn't that still logically equivalent to having a description of paradise where, say, non-harmful heroin is available? Hypothetically speaking, if that was in Muslim scripture, people here would still be using the same arguments to explain it away.

People: disbelievers like me who question this type of thing are not doing it because we're perverse or unable to reason, or whatever other attributes we've kindly been appended with, it's simply because we do see it as a massive contradiction, perhaps one of many. The frequent name-calling that we often get in response to this type of questioning does not actually dispel that impression, or help the discussion in any way.

Peace

[------]

:salamext:


Here is an answer to the first post;

Wine - Good or Bad?


14 October 2005
Hesham Azmy & Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi
We read the missionary claim regarding this supposed “contradiction” as follows:

• Is wine good or bad? Is us forbidden on earth something that is truly good? Or is in Paradise not only allowed but provided in overflowing measures (rivers of…) something that is so bad that it is even called “Satan’s handiwork”?

Response
We believe that there can be no substitute for the ignorance exhibited, and that these concocted “problems” of the Christian missionaries is due to their sheer inability of understanding how tafsir is performed. In response to this alleged “contradiction” in the aforementioned verses, we would like to cite Harun Yahya’s “How Do The Unwise Interpret The Qur’an?” in order for the issue to be duly addressed:

• Wine-drinking in Heaven

One of the topics unwise people portray as a contradiction is how wine is served in Heaven when it is forbidden in this world. The verse that they use to make their claim reads:

“An image of the Garden which is promised to those who have fear for God: in it there are rivers of water which will never spoil and rivers of milk whose taste will never change and rivers of wine, delightful to all who drink it, and rivers of honey of undiluted purity; in it they will have fruit of every kind and forgiveness from their Lord. Is that like those who will be in the Fire timelessly, for ever, with boiling water to drink which lacerates their bowels?” (Surah Muhammad: 15)

As previously explained, this type of error of perception occurs when one is prejudiced, deliberately perverse, unable to reason, and has not grasped the Qur’an as a whole. Now, let us examine why such a thoughtless claim is illogical and baseless from several angles:
First of all, we are able to see that there is a difference between the drink served in Heaven and the one of this world from the following verse:

“With goblets, (shining) beakers, and cups (filled) out of clear-flowing fountains: No after-ache will they receive therefrom, nor will they suffer intoxication.” (Surat al-Waqi’ah: 18-19)

As can be seen, the drinks served in Heaven do not have any of the negative effects and attributes that alcoholic drinks in this world do. As mentioned in the verse, they do not cause headaches or confuse the mind. This means that even though they give pleasure, they do not in any way cause drunkenness or illness. So there is not the least inconsistency in such a drink being offered in Heaven.
Alcoholic drinks in this world, on the other hand, have always been portrayed in the Qur’an together with their many damaging and harmful attributes. Some of the verses that describe the destructive and negative nature of alcoholic drinks in this world are:

“You who have faith! Wine and gambling, stone altars and divining arrows are filth from the handiwork of Satan. Avoid them completely so that hopefully you will be successful. Satan wants to stir up enmity and hatred between you by means of wine and gambling, and to debar you from remembrance of God and from prayer. Will you not then give them up?” (Surat al-Ma’idah: 90-91)

“They will ask you about wine and gambling. Say, ‘There is great sin in both of them and also certain benefits for mankind. But the sin in them is greater than the benefit.’” (Surat al-Baqarah: 219)

Obviously, it cannot be expected that characteristics of drinks that are forbidden in this world could exist in Heavenly ones. As God describes the Heavenly drinks, He emphasizes once more that they do not contain the harmful attributes of those in this world:

“…a cup from a flowing spring passing round among them, as white as driven snow, delicious to those who drink, which has no headache in it and does not leave them stupefied.” (Surat as-Saffat: 45-47)

The logic of anyone who sees this topic as a contradiction when God has made it all so clear must be seriously doubted. It is one of the Qur’an’s miracles that when a person approaches it with ignorance and ulterior motives, he will be incapable of understanding even the most obvious of topics. God describes the case of such a person in one of His verses:

“No self can have faith except with God’s permission. He places a blight on those who do not use their intellect.” (Surah Yunus: 100)

Secondly, in the Arabic text of the Qur’an the word khamr which stands for the word wine and all alcoholic drinks as we know them, is only mentioned in the above verse number 15 from Surah Muhammad as a drink served in Heaven. In all the other verses of the Qur’an, the word “sharab” is used for heavenly drinks, and means any type of drink in Arabic. In some English translations, the word sharab is translated as wine, whereas in Arabic it originates from the word “sherebe” and can be used to mean any non-alcoholic drink as well. One of the Qur’anic verses in which this word is mentioned where it means any drink is:

“Where they will recline, calling for plentiful fruit and drink (sharab)…” (Surah Sad: 51)

“They will wear green garments of fine silk and rich brocade. They will be adorned with silver bracelets. And their Lord will give them to drink of a pure draught (sharab) to drink.” (Surat al-Insan: 21)

Exegesis of Qur’an 56:19 according to the Muslim Commentators
The following are a collection of citations from the early Muslim commentators on the aforementioned verse to supplement Harun Yahya’s explanation. If this proves anything, it shows that missionaries never bother conferring Muslim sources whenever a “contradiction” appears to them.
Ibn Kathir

“la yusadda’un ‘anha wa la yunzifun” — Their heads do not suffer from aches and their minds are not lost; they are even stable in association with extreme enjoyment and pleasant taste. Ad-Dahak related on authority of Ibn Abbas that he said: Wine (khamr) has four characters: intoxication, headache, vomiting and (voiding) urine; Allah (glory be to Him) has mentioned the wine of Paradise and exalted it above these characters. Mujahid, ‘Ikrima, Sa’eed Ibn Jubair, ‘Atiyyah, Qatada and As-Sadi said about “la yusadda’un ‘anha” there is no headache in it. They said about “wa la yunzifun” it means it does not cause loss of mind to them.1

Al-Qurtubi

“la yusadda’un ‘anha” - Their heads do not suffer from aches due to drinking it meaning that it is a pleasure without harm on the contrary of the earthly drink. “wa la yunzifun” - It has been discussed in (Surat) As-Safat and it means that they do not get intoxicated till they lose their minds.2

Imam An-Nasafi

“la yusadda’un ‘anha” - Because of it. The reality of this expression is that it does not cause headache to them or that they are not separated from it. “wa la yunzifun” - They do not get intoxicated. Man has nazaf i.e., his mind is lost due to intoxication.3

As-Suyuti and Al-Mahalli

It means that it does not cause headache or loss of mind to them on the contrary of the earthly wine (khamr).4

Az-Zamakhshari, Al-Baidawi and Ash-Shawkani gave similar statements in their respective tafsir of the Qur’an.5
Conclusions
We have quoted Harun Yahya’s explanation of this so-called “contradiction” and supplemented it with additional citations from the Muslim commentators. Their methodology is consistent with the traditional method of Qur’anic exegesis, i.e., al-Qur’an yufassiru ba’duhu ba’dan (different parts of the Qur’an explain each other). What is given in a general way in one place is discussed in detail in some other place in the Qur’an. What is dealt with briefly at one place is expanded in some other place.
And only God knows best!

1. Tafsir Ibn Kathir, Vol. 7, p. 330 [back]
2. Tafsir-ul-Qurtubi, Vol. 17, p. 170 [back]
3. Tafsir-un-Nasafi, Vol. 2, p. 636 [back]
4. As-Suyuti and Al-Mahalli, Tafsir-ul-Galalin, p. 516 [back]
5. See Az-Zamakhshari, Tafsir-ul-Kashaf, Vol. 4, p. 331; Tafsir-ul-Baidawi, Vol. 5, p. 247 and Ash-Shawkani, Fath-ul-Qadir, Vol. 5, p. 199 [back]

SOURCE



----------------

[suffiyan007]

if there a contradiction/something that is distorted verses in Quran why we must recite quran everytime...and learn to read quran anyway...we cant change any single sentences or words or Verses that Allah sent to the "People of the Book"....we should be great and thankful to God who sent mohammad to us...cause the teaching of muhammad in hadith and Quran from God is a present from God...! we should thankful. if Contradiction in Quran there are another prophets will come after Muhammad...No such thing that Quran is contradicted....salam!:-[

[suffiyan007]

God tells we allow to drink wine in paradise..not in the Curse world..i mean where we are now...Drinking Wine is a Satan urine...i have learn from someone..Wine in the world or liquor...that people now drinking in fatwa...making people zinaa,murder, unconsious ,and etc...lotsa bad social attitude.... we will have peace in the hereafter in jannah lotsa excitement include drinking alchoholic in the river of wine in jannah that's not drunk!...

[czgibson]

Greetings,

:salamext:


Here is an answer to the first post;

I think we all saw that article the first time it was posted...

Peace

[Muhammad]

Greetings czgibson,

I thought this question was answered on the very first page!

The main thing this whole issue boils down to is the fact that this world is incomparable to Paradise.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying that: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which no eye has ever seen, and no ear has ever heard, and no human heart has ever perceived but it is testified by the Book of Allah. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been concealed from them, as a reward for what they did". [Muslim]

Hence the wine drunk here is completely different to the wine that will be found in Paradise. They are like two things with the same name but different qualities. This concept can also be understood from the commentary of the following verse,

And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous good deeds, that for them will be Gardens under which rivers flow (Paradise). Every time they will be provided with a fruit therefrom, they will say: "This is what we were provided with before," and they will be given things in resemblance (i.e. in the same form but different in taste) ... [Al-Baqarah: 25]


Ibn Katheer in his commentary mentions:

Ibn Abi Hatim reported that Yahya bin Abi Kathir said, "The grass of Paradise is made of saffron, its hills from musk and the boys of everlasting youth will serve the believers with fruits which they will eat. They will then be brought similar fruits, and the people of Paradise will comment, `This is the same as what you have just brought us.' The boys will say to them, `Eat, for the color is the same, but the taste is different. Hence Allah's statement,



(and they will be given things in resemblance). Abu Ja`far Ar-Razi narrated that Ar-Rabi` bin Anas said that Abu Al-`Aliyah said that,



(and they will be given things in resemblance) means, "They look like each other, but the taste is different.'' Also, `Ikrimah said,


(and they will be given things in resemblance) "They are similar to the fruits of this life, but the fruits of Paradise taste better. '' Sufyan Ath-Thawri reported from Al-A`mash, from Abu Thubyan, that Ibn `Abbas said, "Nothing in Paradise resembles anything in the life of this world, except in name.'' In another narration, Ibn `Abbas said, "Only the names are similar between what is in this life and what is in Paradise.''

In light of this, I cannot see how a vice is becoming a virtue, when the two things are incomparable. Furthermore, the example of "non-harmful heroine" does not seem appropriate as the two are not of the same kind. A person who drinks a small quantity of wine might have gained health benefits and society does not see any problem with this, whereas a person who begins taking even a small amount of heroine is immediately seen through a negative light and has stereotypes attached to them. So it is not as though clear-cut evil prohibited in this world is now suddenly being allowed in Paradise, and this notion of a "massive contradiction" is nothing but a failure to understand basic concepts in Islam.

Lastly, I apologise if any name-calling has taken place and I urge members to refrain from this as it does not help discussions in any way.

Regards.

[czgibson]

Greetings Muhammad,

Good to talk to you again. :)

Greetings czgibson,

I thought this question was answered on the very first page!

The main thing this whole issue boils down to is the fact that this world is incomparable to Paradise.

I understand this point, but my question about harmless "heroin" still stands. Something forbidden is still being used as an enticement.

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying that: Allah the Exalted and Glorious, said: I have prepared for My pious servants which no eye has ever seen, and no ear has ever heard, and no human heart has ever perceived but it is testified by the Book of Allah. He then recited:" No soul knows what comfort has been concealed from them, as a reward for what they did". [Muslim]

This is just deliberate obfuscation, not an argument.

In light of this, I cannot see how a vice is becoming a virtue, when the two things are incomparable.

None of what you have said really addresses the question.

Furthermore, the example of "non-harmful heroine" does not seem appropriate as the two are not of the same kind. A person who drinks a small quantity of wine might have gained health benefits and society does not see any problem with this, whereas a person who begins taking even a small amount of heroine is immediately seen through a negative light and has stereotypes attached to them.

What about the millions of hospital patients all over the world who are given diamorphine as a painkiller every year? Alcohol and heroin are two of the most dangerous drugs in the world if abused, but they both have considerable benefits as well.

Anyway, none of this detracts from the fact that the two are both substances forbidden to Muslims during their lives (although I'm not sure about the ruling on diamorphine for medical purposes - perhaps Muslims are allowed to have it?), and one of them is used as an enticement to get to paradise. My point is that if it was a harmless version of heroin being advertised in paradise, your argument would be the same.

So it is not as though clear-cut evil prohibited in this world is now suddenly being allowed in Paradise, and this notion of a "massive contradiction" is nothing but a failure to understand basic concepts in Islam.

Obviously one or both of us has been conditioned to see this in two different ways. The contradiction looks absolutely clear from where I'm sitting, and no-one has actually even addressed it yet.

Lastly, I apologise if any name-calling has taken place and I urge members to refrain from this as it does not help discussions in any way.

I know, this is why I'm amazed to see why you cannot even read size 7 writing.

Apparently I can't read now. Thanks for that, "Serene".

Peace

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,

There's one aspect of this question that hasn't really been addressed. As Sarada said: How can a vice become a virtue?

Why is it that wine, something that Muslims view as bad and are forbidden from drinking during their lives, is used as one of the enticements of paradise?
.....
Peace

We've sort of covered this point. The question really that should be asked is why the usage of wine in the Quran (given the fact that the wine in paradise described has little in common with the wine on Earth). To which, I personally believe it is either a metaphor or just part of a translation ''error'' in that this is the closest thing to describing it. In any case, I don't think the usage of the word wine is supposed to be literal or even that important overall - it's simply there for us to have some form of understanding the word, so we can gauge an idea of it.

If it is indeed a matter of vice into vertue (I don't have a translation at hand, so cannot verify this), perhaps it is in reference to the arabs at the time, where alcohol/wine etc was consumed heavily - then the ayats were revealed to say: the wine on earth is haram for you, but you can enjoy it in paradise. So if it is an enticement, it is meant for a specific group of people. Of course, this is a big if.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

We've sort of covered this point. The question really that should be asked is why the usage of wine in the Quran (given the fact that the wine in paradise described has little in common with the wine on Earth).

That is, of course, a good question, and one that's been discussed already. It still stands, I think.

If it is indeed a matter of vice into vertue (I don't have a translation at hand, so cannot verify this), perhaps it is in reference to the arabs at the time, where alcohol/wine etc was consumed heavily - then the ayats were revealed to say: the wine on earth is haram for you, but you can enjoy it in paradise. So if it is an enticement, it is meant for a specific group of people. Of course, this is a big if.

Well, quite. In the light of that, I wonder what a modern-day Muslim is supposed to make of it? Surely wine is something that a Muslim is taught to revile as much as, say, heroin, to use my previous example. To think of it another way, how would you react if the Qur'an later said that "harmless pork" would be on offer in paradise - wouldn't that strike you as being a real contradiction?

Incidentally, thank you for responding with your usual cool-headedness. It's good to be able to discuss these things without getting ourselves wound up needlessly.

Peace

[Muhammad]

Greetings czgibson,

It is also good to speak to you again after the usual period of long silence! :)

I didn't really understand why my post - or anyone else's for that matter -did not address the question. Just as one cannot compare apples with oranges, why then can one compare worldy wine with heavenly wine and treat them as the same? You said you understood the point of incomparability, yet you continue to make the same mistake.

Something forbidden is still being used as an enticement.

Now you say "something forbidden" as opposed to "vice" which you said earlier. The two are not the same. There are other examples of things forbidden to people in this world, yet they will be allowed in Paradise, such as silk for men, having more than four wives and gold cutlery. There is nothing wrong in not being permitted something in this life and being rewarded with it (and something much better) in Paradise. This is simply the command and will of Allaah (swt).

This is just deliberate obfuscation, not an argument.

I quoted the hadeeth to show how Paradise is not the same as this life.

What about the millions of hospital patients all over the world who are given diamorphine as a painkiller every year? Alcohol and heroin are two of the most dangerous drugs in the world if abused, but they both have considerable benefits as well.

I was not referring to heroine in the field of medicine, rather I meant its illicit use in the streets. In hospitals, its use is controlled and monitored, whereas a person taking it of his own accord becomes addicted and it leads to harm. Although both have potential danger, alcohol is more socially accepted and not restricted to medical treatment, which is why the question about heroine is not accurate. But putting this aside and moving to your next point,

Anyway, none of this detracts from the fact that the two are both substances forbidden to Muslims during their lives (although I'm not sure about the ruling on diamorphine for medical purposes - perhaps Muslims are allowed to have it?), and one of them is used as an enticement to get to paradise. My point is that if it was a harmless version of heroin being advertised in paradise, your argument would be the same.

Regardless of whether alcohol and heroine can be grouped under the same category, we still go back to the fact that there is nothing wrong with something being forbidden in this life and permitted in the afterlife, especially when that thing will be free of all reason to be considered evil/bad/harmful etc. and the fact that the life of the hereafter will be free of tests. So I really don't understand where the notion of "contradiction" crops up and it's pretty far from being absolutely clear.

Peace.

[aamirsaab]

...........
Well, quite. In the light of that, I wonder what a modern-day Muslim is supposed to make of it? Surely wine is something that a Muslim is taught to revile as much as, say, heroin, to use my previous example. To think of it another way, how would you react if the Qur'an later said that "harmless pork" would be on offer in paradise - wouldn't that strike you as being a real contradiction?

Your points are fair. I was looking at some verses of the Quran last night with especial regards to this topic. The ayats stated '...a wine' as opposed to wine itself. This would denote that it is a type of wine (PA had a good post on this a few pages back, describing the source of this wine btw) - in which case, it is not a matter of vice into vertue, especially since it is speaking about a type of wine (presently, there are different types of wine, including non alcoholic...)

With that being said, we have these twoa ayats that sarada had given in her first post;
* Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord. (Can those in such Bliss) be compared to such as shall dwell for ever in the Fire, and be given, to drink, boiling water, so that it cuts up their bowels (to pieces)?" (47:15).

* Truly the Righteous will be in Bliss: On Thrones (of Dignity) will they command a sight (of all things): Thou wilt recognize in their faces the beaming brightness of Bliss. Their thirst will be slaked with Pure Wine sealed," (83:22-25).

Perhaps in both cases the usage of wine relates directly to the '..a wine' in the other ayats (maybe these ones were revealed after the '..a wine' verses which'd make sense seeing as it is referring to the verses previously sent). Alternatively, we could go into symantics of these verses and see that in the second ayat given above, the usage of wine is preceeded by Pure - denoting a type of wine. Another view point on this matter, from a scholar, indicates that it is metaphorical and not literal.

The first ayat also gives a unique attribute to wine, in addition to milk and water; ''Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink''
Given the context of the full verse it's clear that this is meant as purely enticement (and as a parable between paradise and hell), but the description given of wine indicates that it, once again, has a unique attribute; it must, therefore be a type of wine (In the translation that I am currently reading, the scholar's footnote for this ayat states the attributes of this wine, which are all included in the ayats serene gave earlier). This suggest that the Quran is indeed speaking of a type of wine as opposed to wine itself.

Of course, to get a detailed description of these ayats, it is best to go to a scholar or imam whom have studied the history and context of these verses in a much greater extent than I have. Heck, I'm only using logical assumptions myself and merely reiterating the knowledge from a couple of translations!

Incidentally, thank you for responding with your usual cool-headedness. It's good to be able to discuss these things without getting ourselves wound up needlessly.

Peace

I'm always happy to discuss my religion :) Thanks for the compliment.

[Chuck]

There's one aspect of this question that hasn't really been addressed. As Sarada said: How can a vice become a virtue?

Why is it that wine, something that Muslims view as bad and are forbidden from drinking during their lives, is used as one of the enticements of paradise?

Fair enough, perhaps the wine in paradise would be different, but isn't that still logically equivalent to having a description of paradise where, say, non-harmful heroin is available? Hypothetically speaking, if that was in Muslim scripture, people here would still be using the same arguments to explain it away.

In a way, you have answered your own question. If non-harmful heroin is available then that kind of heroin is not a vice in the first place.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

In a way, you have answered your own question. If non-harmful heroin is available then that kind of heroin is not a vice in the first place.

I think this comes closest to what I mean. Apologies, Muhammad and aamirsaab - I'm obviously not making myself clear here.

The nub of the matter is this: why would a Muslim find wine (of whatever kind) appealing?

Peace

[BlackMamba]

How many times have the same questions been answered over and over. Its to the point now where either you believe or disbelieve because all the facts have been clearly layed out. I think all the kuffar on this thread are being very illogical and hard headed and they need to look at things with an open mind rather that looking to find faults in everything.

[Azy]

The kuffar are illogical?
The Quran tempts followers to paradise with things that are forbidden on earth. In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses, but we'll try describe them and give them a specific name, something that muslims can relate to except for the fact this thing is haraam so they've never experienced it anyway but that doesn't matter because it shares no properties with the thing we're comparing it to (except possibly that it's wet).

Are you telling me that God can't think of a better way to describe things and that this is clear and precise and comprehensible by all?

[Cabdullahi]

The kuffar are illogical?
The Quran tempts followers to paradise with things that are forbidden on earth. In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses, but we'll try describe them and give them a specific name, something that muslims can relate to except for the fact this thing is haraam so they've never experienced it anyway but that doesn't matter because it shares no properties with the thing we're comparing it to (except possibly that it's wet).

Are you telling me that God can't think of a better way to describe things and that this is clear and precise and comprehensible by all?

You will see things more clearly once you remove this feeling of thinking that islam is all about proving the kuffar wrong all the time infact it only offers help for those who are lost in this wilderness,tricked and blinded to the core.

First and foremost the wine on earth is an intoxicant some of my caucasian friends they say it tastes good and theres nothing better than a can of beer on a hot summers day,listening to this there is obviously some temptation(from the shaytan) but islam teaches me to stay resistant and patient ,if i succesfully do this then i will be eligible to consume wine that doesnt intoxicate me and doesnt make me crazy

Anybody that doesnt even have two brain cells to rub toghether will find this illogical

What some people dont know and this is when alil research will do alot for those who are filled with anger,is that the arabs used to drink alcohol freely and then allah abolished the consume of alcohol,some guys who were dependant on this junk became alittle angry,so therefore allah says stop the alcohol and keep a fresh mind,pray the five times and after you do everything that is ordered from you then you will get you're wine but in heaven and it will not intoxicate you !!! but it will taste so sweet


You refrain from using something dangerous,even though you like it and dont know what harm its doing to you then you will get an alternative thats similar in just the name but content wise there cannot be any comparsions

[Azy]

You're just restating the problem, maybe if you read the thread again our questions will make more sense.

[Chuck]

Greetings,



I think this comes closest to what I mean. Apologies, Muhammad and aamirsaab - I'm obviously not making myself clear here.

The nub of the matter is this: why would a Muslim find wine (of whatever kind) appealing?

Peace

what is exactly the problem? I don't really see any point except being argumentative. Some might like it and some don't, maybe all would like what they taste in paradise without any kind of problems. That would be a gift from God.

[aamirsaab]

Greetings,



I think this comes closest to what I mean. Apologies, Muhammad and aamirsaab - I'm obviously not making myself clear here.

The nub of the matter is this: why would a Muslim find wine (of whatever kind) appealing?


Peace

Hmm. I don't know. But then I guess your follow up would be why call it wine, in which case it's either a metaphor, a literal sense targeted at those who wish to drink wine (say, the arabs at the time of the verses revelation) or it is a type of wine (which we've covered).

...
Are you telling me that God can't think of a better way to describe things and that this is clear and precise and comprehensible by all?

It is rather clear, precise and comprehensible. The only thing that seems to be confusing people about these verses is the usage of wine - which I've given 3 seperate possibilities for (though, only one has been backed up via a scholar's translation - so I'd put my bet on that one).

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

The nub of the matter is this: why would a Muslim find wine (of whatever kind) appealing?

If the wine is not like the wine in this world, and is among the countless things in Paradise that confer endless delight, why wouldn't a Muslim find it appealing?

The kuffar are illogical?
The Quran tempts followers to paradise with things that are forbidden on earth. In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses, but we'll try describe them and give them a specific name, something that muslims can relate to except for the fact this thing is haraam so they've never experienced it anyway but that doesn't matter because it shares no properties with the thing we're comparing it to (except possibly that it's wet).

Are you telling me that God can't think of a better way to describe things and that this is clear and precise and comprehensible by all?

You are going round in circles. Who said that the things in Paradise are comprehensible by all? You said yourself, "In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses". The illogicality arises in not willing to accept such a simple concept.

Regards.

[Azy]

Hmm. I don't know. But then I guess your follow up would be why call it wine, in which case it's either a metaphor, a literal sense targeted at those who wish to drink wine (say, the arabs at the time of the verses revelation) or it is a type of wine (which we've covered).

It is rather clear, precise and comprehensible. The only thing that seems to be confusing people about these verses is the usage of wine - which I've given 3 seperate possibilities for (though, only one has been backed up via a scholar's translation - so I'd put my bet on that one).

In your previous post you said:
"This suggest that the Quran is indeed speaking of a type of wine as opposed to wine itself."
Forgive me but I just don't see how this sentence makes any sense.
Wine is wine by virtue of the ingredients and the process of fermentation to produce alcohol.
There's a perfectly good name for drinks that haven't been made that way: fruit juice. Better yet, just pick any other name because it's not like anything we know, and it's absolutely nothing like wine so maybe a name that better reflects that?
You might as well say that in Paradise you can eat pork, but it's pork that comes from a chicken and tastes like pineapple.

You are going round in circles. Who said that the things in Paradise are comprehensible by all? You said yourself, "In paradise these things are completely different to anything on earth and beyond our mere human senses". The illogicality arises in not willing to accept such a simple concept.

I'm not talking about Paradise, I'm talking about the Quran being clear. By the way, if a place that is totally beyond human comprehension and senses is a simple concept then I take my hat off to you :)

[aamirsaab]

In your previous post you said:
"This suggest that the Quran is indeed speaking of a type of wine as opposed to wine itself."
Forgive me but I just don't see how this sentence makes any sense.
Wine is wine by virtue of the ingredients and the process of fermentation to produce alcohol.
There's a perfectly good name for drinks that haven't been made that way: fruit juice. Better yet, just pick any other name because it's not like anything we know, and it's absolutely nothing like wine so maybe a name that better reflects that?
You might as well say that in Paradise you can eat pork, but it's pork that comes from a chicken and tastes like pineapple.

I also stated that a scholar views the usage of wine as a metaphor. So I would take his stance over mine. Why it is referred to (in the Quran) as wine may have something to do with the arabic language (or for the reasons I gave previously) - though I cannot comment with certainty as my own view point is merely conjecture based on the english translation of the Quran. I haven't studied the arabic version to the limited extent I have done of the english translation.

[Imam]

:sl:

There is nothing in the verses to be taken as a metaphor,

the ingredients and the process of fermentation to produce alcohol.There's a perfectly good name for drinks that haven't been made that way: fruit juice
.

exactly ,by using the word (khamr) suggests that such wine is a real wine in form but

1-Tasty and a Joy

047.015
YUSUFALI: (Here is) a Parable of the Garden which the righteous are promised: in it are rivers of water incorruptible; rivers of milk of which the taste never changes; rivers of wine, a joy to those who drink; and rivers of honey pure and clear. In it there are for them all kinds of fruits; and Grace from their Lord.


2- white,free from the negative effects of world wine(talking in vain ,offenses:

052.023

SHAKIR: They shall pass therein from one to another a cup wherein there

shall be nothing vain nor any sin.

Round will be passed to them a Cup from a clear-flowing fountain,
Crystal-white, of a taste delicious to those who drink (thereof), Free from headiness; nor will they suffer intoxication therefrom.

sure the verses is not talking about fruit-juice , it is a real ,tasty ,white wine,free from negative effects .

قال ابن عباس: في الخمر أربع خصال: السكر، والصداع، والقيء ، والبول، فذكر الله خمر الجنة فنزهها عن هذه الخصال

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

I'm not talking about Paradise, I'm talking about the Quran being clear. By the way, if a place that is totally beyond human comprehension and senses is a simple concept then I take my hat off to you :)

How does making mention of wine that is unlike any wine consumed on earth detract from the Qur'an's clarity? This has nothing to do with the Qur'an's clarity, rather it seems you have a problem with the concept of two things being very different but sharing the same name. For instance, Allaah (swt) has told us that He has a Hand, but obviously His Hand is unlike the human hand. Does that mean there is a contradiction or lack of clarity? No! This concept is even seen elsewhere, for example, a clock has hands, yet those hands are very different to human hands.

What is the difficulty in accepting a place beyond human comprehension? This is a straightforward description, but I think you are making it difficult for yourself by seeking more details of something that is at the outset beyond imagination and worldly experience.

[جوري]

Early Arabs used to drink two alcoholic beverages, one made of Ginger considered 'Hot', and one made with camphor, considered cool.. the prohibition of liquor wasn't complete and abrupt in one stage.. as is stated

• in the verse 2:219
• They ask thee concerning wine and gambling. Say: "In them is great sin, and some profit, for men; but the sin is greater than the profit." They ask thee how much they are to spend; say: "What is beyond your needs." Thus doth Allah make clear to you His Signs: in order that ye may consider.

So who says No muslim ever knew what an alcoholic beverage is?

surely heaven has that which no eye has seen nor ears have heard, but Allah swt is giving us assimilations of things we can relate too...

as stated prior, if it is denoted in the Quran that there is a place called 'Tasneem' you'd shrug your shoulder pffft? so what?..
unless it is likened to a 'spring' then you can have some mental image of what it might be, though not fully capturing it..

http://books.google.com/books?id=_1n...um=6&ct=result

hope that helps...

post # 32

Terms like 'mizajoho min tasneem' does denote wine whose very dregs are from the spring (tasneem), or of Musk etc

Most good wines aren't about the alcoholic contents but about the body of flavors that have been aged and linger on the palate.. hence you'd find a description like a sauvignon, is herbaceous with tropical aromas
or a chenin blanc fresh, fragrant with peach aroma medium bodied and fruity..
you can have a look here
http://www.spierrestaurants.co.za/dl/Jonk_wine.pdf

You will not see wine described as chablis ethanol 98%
or cabernet mostly isopropyl ( as illegal as that is) but hope you get the anaology?
because it isn't about the alcohol..
I'd hate to say this, but if you know about wine, then you'll actually get a full appreciation of what it means to have a drink described with dregs in musk or zanjabeel etc.. It is really a very deep description..
and undoubtedly from the mere description there is nothing earthy about it...



:w:

post #36
enough said on the subject?

[Keltoi]

Just as a personal opinion, and not as a debating point, I find the concept of the Islamic view of Paradise to be the biggest stumbling block for me. Perhaps it is my Christian understanding of Heaven, but I cannot imagine God rewarding people with wine, women, or whatever else is described. Honestly it sounds like a moral paradox. That isn't an attack or anything, just my sincere line of thought on the matter.

[جوري]

I don't know what the 'christian concept' is of a reward in heaven, perhaps wondering around like a ghost eternally? be that as it may, it is already said in Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
the Prophet said, "Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.' "

which should lead one to conclude that whatever is mentioned is extremely minor by examining worldy resemblances....

But then, I myself have no understood certain christian concepts, like priesthood, corporal mortification, drinking or eating Jesus in church, so I suppose to each his own!

I'll take heavenly wine over punishing one's own body or depriving it of what it primal when lawful as a spiritual discipline!

peace

[Keltoi]

I don't know what the 'christian concept' is of a reward in heaven, perhaps wondering around like a ghost eternally? be that as it may, it is already said in Volume 9, Book 93, Number 589:
Narrated Abu Huraira:
the Prophet said, "Allah said, "I have prepared for My righteous slaves (such excellent things) as no eye has ever seen, nor an ear has ever heard nor a human heart can ever think of.' "

which should lead one to conclude that whatever is mentioned is extremely minor by examining worldy resemblances....

But then, I myself have no understood certain christian concepts, like priesthood, corporal mortification, drinking or eating Jesus in church, so I suppose to each his own!

I'll take heavenly wine over punishing one's own body or depriving it of what it primal when lawful as a spiritual discipline!

peace

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

[جوري]

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

Drinking wine isn't a 'moral issue' which by definition is 'Concern with the distinction between good and evil or right and wrong' it is a mere prohibition.. like 'the apple from the garden' do you think eating apples is morally reprehensible? or do you think that your child taking a cookie from the jar before dinner when you've forbidden him from doing so is evil? Do you think a surgeon scrubbing each surface of his fingers 4 times as opposed to five is immoral? It is nothing more than guidelines the protocols set by which we are to live our lives. Someone might contend that there is no risk for infection if you scrub four times each plane as opposed to four for a total of 25 strokes over 30 if you in turn double glove, but, if you are caught and you'll be caught not following protocols you'll be barred from practice. Same with cookies, apples or even wine!
and I quote the Hadith

That which is lawful is plain and that which is unlawful is plain and between the two of them are doubtful matters about which not many people know. Thus he who avoids doubtful matters clears himself in regard to his religion and his honor, but he who falls into doubtful matters falls into that which is unlawful, like the shepherd who pastures around a sanctuary, all but grazing therein. Truly every king has a sanctuary, and truly Allah's sanctuary is His prohibitions. Truly in the body there is a morsel of flesh which, if it be whole, all the body is whole and which, if it be diseased, all of it is diseased. Truly it is the heart."

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

Ok!

peace

[aadil77]

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

I suppose you're reffering to wine in the afterlife, its already been said that wine will not be intoxicating in paradise so you won't be experiencing the same thing, as there is nothing bad/negative in heaven. As for the desires and wants, they will be pure, so nothing dirty.

Again the hereafter is nothing we can imagine, so don't expect yourself to get your head around this one

edit: haven't read the whole thread so may have missed something

[Chuck]

So you don't understand why it seems like a moral paradox? One abstains from things in life so that they might experience them in the afterlife? I suppose from my point of view it seems too involved with fleshly desires and wants.

I understand very well that there are concepts in every religion some people can't get their heads around, and I suppose for me this would be one.

There is a context. It is similar to asking why it is wrong to read from a book during an exam but not outside of exam. If a person just gonna look at reading issue it would look like a paradox but when one understands the reasons it doesn't. In Islam moral regulations are there for a reason. This world is mainly a test and for that reason God has made humans and other things a certain way with harm vs good. For example, wine is mainly prohibited because it makes person loss sense, lose control, and can do stupid things when drunk. It is also addictive. It has some benefits but it comes with harm.

God will destroy this world and recreate into another, and change the nature of of things, even likes and dislikes of humans, and remove the harm from those things which are here made for a test. For example, wine in paradise will not make lose sense no matter how much one will drink it. For example, there will be no jealousy in paradise. God will remove it from the nature of people in there. The nature of everything will be different. Message is very simple, God has made this world for a test and there are restrictrictions and regulations to test who is better in deeds. When this test is over, God will give humans much better than they can imagine for their patience and sacrifices in this temporary period world. But even in this world rules and regulations of God have benefits even though in sometimes they are not visible on the surface as the following verses describe:

(Allah) Most Gracious!
It is He Who has taught the Qur'an.
He has created man:
He has taught him speech (and intelligence).
The sun and the moon follow courses (exactly) computed;
And the herbs and the trees - both (alike) prostrate in adoration.
And the Firmament has He raised high, and He has set up the Balance (of Justice),
In order that ye may not transgress (due) balance.
So establish weight with justice and fall not short in the balance.
[Quran 055:1-9]

The above verse has a deep meaning how things work in this world. As far as paradise is concerned, no body will cheat there and everything people would need there will be in abundance. You cannot compare how things work here and how things will work in the next life. Experiences will be totally different. However, message is clear that next world is better with no restriction yet without the harms and limitations people face in this world.

What would be the living in paradise like in Christian understanding?

[Keltoi]

There is a context. It is similar to asking why it is wrong to read from a book during an exam but not outside of exam. If a person just gonna look at reading issue it would look like a paradox but when one understands the reasons it doesn't. In Islam moral regulations are there for a reason. This world is mainly a test and for that reason God has made humans and other things a certain way with harm vs good. For example, wine is mainly prohibited because it makes person loss sense, lose control, and can do stupid things when drunk. It is also addictive. It has some benefits but it comes with harm.

God will destroy this world and recreate into another, and change the nature of of things, even likes and dislikes of humans, and remove the harm from those things which are here made for a test. For example, wine in paradise will not make lose sense no matter how much one will drink it. For example, there will be no jealousy in paradise. God will remove it from the nature of people in there. The nature of everything will be different. Message is very simple, God has made this world for a test and there are restrictrictions and regulations to test who is better in deeds. When this test is over, God will give humans much better than they can imagine for their patience and sacrifices in this temporary period world. But even in this world rules and regulations of God have benefits even though in sometimes they are not visible on the surface as the following verses describe:

The above verse has a deep meaning how things work in this world. As far as paradise is concerned, no body will cheat there and everything people would need there will be in abundance. You cannot compare how things work here and how things will work in the next life. Experiences will be totally different. However, message is clear that next world is better with no restriction yet without the harms and limitations people face in this world.

What would be the living in paradise like in Christian understanding?

The descriptions of Heaven are rather vague, although what is mentioned over and over again is eternal life in the light of God. To be in the presence of God would be the ultimate gift.

"He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:3-4).

There is no promise of "physical" pleasures, only the promise of eternal life and the peace that comes in the presence of God. I suppose that would be the major difference here, and the reason why promises of physical delights, like wine drinking and sexual rewards, seem odd to me. I'm not judging it, only reflecting on the differences between Islam and Christianity on the issue of eternal reward.

[جوري]

You should read a bit more about the Islamic concept of paradise then, since yours seem very abbreviated by comparison.

The human mind is a true marvel, but in certain areas it is limited. God is different from anything the human mind can think of or imagine, so the mind will become confused if it tries to picture God. Nevertheless, it is possible to understand the attributes of God that do not require one to make any mental pictures of Him. For example, one of God’s names is al-Ghaffar, which means He forgives all sins. Everyone can understand this easily because that is how the human mind can think of God. Jewish and Christian teachings on God are confused partly because of incorrect understanding of this issue. The Jewish Torah teaches God is like man,

“Then God said, ‘Let us make man in our image, after our likeness…so God made man in His own image.’” (Genesis 1:26-27)

Moreover, certain churches contain statues or images of an old white bearded man depicting God. Some of these were produced by the likes of Michelangelo who depicted the Face and Hand of a god – a tough looking old man - in paintings.

Rendering images of God in Islam is an impossibility, and amounts to disbelief, as God tells us in the Quran that nothing resembles Him:

“There is nothing like Him, but He is All-Hearing, All-Seeing.” (Quran 42:11)

“There is nothing comparable to Him.” (Quran 112:4)

The Request of Moses to See God
Eyes can not bear the vision of God. He tells us in the Quran:

“Vision cannot grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision.” (Quran 6:103)

Moses, to whom God spoke and gave great miracles, was chosen by God to be His Prophet. It is said that he thought that, since God used to speak to him, he might be able to actually see God. The story is in the Quran, where God tells us what happened:

“And when Moses arrived at Our appointed time and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show me (Yourself) that I may look at You.’ (God) said, ‘You will not see Me, but look at the mountain; if it should remain in place, then you will see Me.’ But when his Lord appeared to the mountain, He rendered it level, and Moses fell unconscious. And when he awoke, he said, ‘Exalted are You! I have repented to You, and I am the first of the believers.’” (Quran 7:143)

God made it clear that no-one, including the great prophet Moses, can bear the sight of the divine, for God is too great to be grasped by human eyes in this life. According to the Quran, Moses realized his request was in error; therefore, he sought forgiveness from God for having asked.

Did Prophet Muhammad See God In This Life?
Prophet Muhammad traveled in a miraculous journey through the heavens and met God. People thought that since Prophet Muhammad spoke to God in that journey, he probably saw God too. One of the companions, Abu Dahrr, asked him about it. The Prophet replied:

“There was only light, how could I see Him?” (Saheeh Muslim)

What was the light he saw? The Prophet explained:

“Surely, God does not sleep nor is it befitting for Him to sleep. He is the one who lowers the scales and raises them. The deeds of the night go up to Him before the deeds of the day and those of the day before those of the night, and His veil is light.” (Saheeh Muslim)

Visions of God in Spiritual Experiences
Some people, including some who claim to be Muslims, report spiritual experiences where they claim to have seen God. Common reported experiences also include seeing light, or a magnificent being seated on a throne. In the case of Muslims, such an experience is usually accompanied by dropping basic Islamic practices like salah and fasting, under the mistaken opinion that such practices are only for common people who had not had their type of experience.

So what does Islam teach about this? Islam teaches us that it is Satan who pretends to be God to deceive ignorant people who believe in such experiences and go astray. One of the fundamental foundations of Islam is that the law revealed to Prophet Muhammad cannot be changed or canceled. God neither makes lawful for some what He has made unlawful for others, nor does He communicate His Law through such experiences to people. Rather, divine law is revealed through the proper channel of revelation to the prophets, a channel that was closed after the advent of the prophet Muhammad, the last of God’s prophets.

Seeing God in Afterlife
In Islamic doctrine, God cannot be seen in this life, but the believers will see God in the next life; even then, God will not be grasped in totality. This is stated clearly in the Quran and the Sunnah. The Prophet said,

“The Day Of Resurrection is the first day any eye will look at God, the Mighty and Exalted.”[1]

Describing the events of Resurrection Day, God states in the Quran:

“On that day some faces will be bright, looking at their Lord.” (Quran 75:22-23)

The Prophet was asked if we will see God on the Day of resurrection. He replied, “Are you harmed by looking at the moon when it is full?”[2] ‘No,’ they replied. Then he said, “Surely, you will see Him likewise.” In another hadith the Prophet said, “Surely, each of you will see God on the day when you shall meet Him, and there will be no veil or translator between Him and you.”[3] Seeing God will be a favor that is additional to Paradise on the people who will dwell therein. As a matter of fact, the joy of seeing God for a believer will be greater than the all the joys of Paradise combined together. The unbelievers, on the other hand, will be deprived of seeing God, and this will be greater punishment for them than all the pain and suffering of Hell combined together.

http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/331/

[Chuck]

The descriptions of Heaven are rather vague, although what is mentioned over and over again is eternal life in the light of God. To be in the presence of God would be the ultimate gift.

"He will dwell with them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be with them and be their God. And God will wipe away every tear from their eyes; there shall be no more death, nor sorrow, nor crying; and there shall be no more pain, for the former things have passed away" (Revelation 21:3-4).

There is no promise of "physical" pleasures, only the promise of eternal life and the peace that comes in the presence of God. I suppose that would be the major difference here, and the reason why promises of physical delights, like wine drinking and sexual rewards, seem odd to me. I'm not judging it, only reflecting on the differences between Islam and Christianity on the issue of eternal reward.

Light of God is the ultimate delight in Islam too for the people in paradise. Gift is a delight, a gift without delight is no gift in real terms. As far as sex is concerned, sex is gift from God in Islam in this world too, but it has regulations. Highest ranking Imam doesn't have to abstain from sex in Islam to better in the sight of God, but he only has to follow the prescribed way.

[Keltoi]

Light of God is the ultimate delight in Islam too for the people in paradise. Gift is a delight, a gift without delight is no gift in real terms. As far as sex is concerned, sex is gift from God in Islam in this world too, but it has regulations. Highest ranking Imam doesn't have to abstain from sex in Islam to better in the sight of God, but he only has to follow the prescribed way.

Yes, I wasn't intending to suggest sex by its nature is sinful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that in the Islamic Paradise women are created by God for the express purpose of sexual gratification? I didn't read that on a website or anything, it was actually suggested to me by a Muslim co-worker. If he was wrong then I stand corrected.

[جوري]

Yes, I wasn't intending to suggest sex by its nature is sinful. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm under the impression that in the Islamic Paradise women are created by God for the express purpose of sexual gratification? I didn't read that on a website or anything, it was actually suggested to me by a Muslim co-worker. If he was wrong then I stand corrected.

those are 'hoor ayn' and there is nothing in the Quran to express that they are 'women only' that is, the term denotes ones who possess big lustrous eyes.. can encompass either gender actually, though scholars are divided on that..

so what that there will be companions in heaven of special creation for the purpose of the pleasure of the believers?


cheers

[FatimaAsSideqah]

This is clearly wrong.


The parable of Paradise, which the God-fearing are promised: In it are rivers of incorruptible water, rivers of milk of which the taste never deteriorates, rivers of wine of joyous taste for the drinkers, and rivers of clear and pure honey. In it, shall they be bestowed all kinds of fruits and [complete] forgiveness from their Lord. Are they like him who is to dwell forever in fire and shall be given boiling water, which shall cut-up their bowels? (47:15)

wine is forbidden by the Qur’an, but only is it shall be served to the pious believers in the Hereafter.