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Tornado
06-27-2008, 06:25 AM
Here is the lowdown on being an atheist (my opinion).

There is nothing universally common between us atheists except for this bit: a lack of belief in a god. We may share some opinions but it doesn't bind us. For example, if we look at abortion: I may be pro-life while another atheist may be pro-choice.

Imagine someone very close to you passes away, you realize, there is no one really turn to so you can only end up sulking, knowing you will never see them again. It can be very lonely being an atheist. There is virtually no hope and knowing that know one is really behind you to get through the bad times.

Here's a bummer:No afterlife. Imagine this, because we think there is no god, that means that we will never see the people we truly love, our family and friends. When we die, that's it. Again, it's very sad and depressing.

There is no special meaning to life except to have kids. We are on a lonely planet along with the seven planets in our solar system that revolve around our sun, just one star among the 200+ billion stars in just our galaxy, just one galaxy amongst hundreds of billions of galaxies in our visible universe.

How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.

So if anyone is unsure whether to convert or not to atheism, consider that things become lonelier.

If you have any questions about being an atheist, just ask.
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glo
07-01-2008, 07:09 PM
Hi Tornado

An atheist I know gets quite upset at the suggestion that atheists have 'no spirituality' ...

Do you, as an atheist, see yourself to be a spiritual person?
And how do you define spirituality (in the absence of 'the divine', which most believers would associate spirituality with)?

Since there is no clear definition of atheism (other than not believing there is enough evidence to believe in God), I guess these are questions to you personally, rather than about atheists per se.

Peace :)
Reply

suffiyan007
07-01-2008, 07:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Here is the lowdown on being an atheist (my opinion).

There is nothing universally common between us atheists except for this bit: a lack of belief in a god. We may share some opinions but it doesn't bind us. For example, if we look at abortion: I may be pro-life while another atheist may be pro-choice.

Imagine someone very close to you passes away, you realize, there is no one really turn to so you can only end up sulking, knowing you will never see them again. It can be very lonely being an atheist. There is virtually no hope and knowing that know one is really behind you to get through the bad times.

Here's a bummer:No afterlife. Imagine this, because we think there is no god, that means that we will never see the people we truly love, our family and friends. When we die, that's it. Again, it's very sad and depressing.

There is no special meaning to life except to have kids. We are on a lonely planet along with the seven planets in our solar system that revolve around our sun, just one star among the 200+ billion stars in just our galaxy, just one galaxy amongst hundreds of billions of galaxies in our visible universe.

How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.

So if anyone is unsure whether to convert or not to atheism, consider that things become lonelier.

If you have any questions about being an atheist, just ask.
just wann give u a clear questions:

Who create the world..?

Why do we born to the world?


IF there no creator...there is no sign of life....

believe the in the Greatness of Allah...

Allah can Create a man without a father like Adam and Jesus...

if no God Watching us day and Night...world will turn upside down...

who lead the sun and moon....?
why do earth orbit and move around?

is all Allah taking care of it........

Believe in the sign...of Allah

Submit yourself to Allah....
Submit in Arabic mean..islam!...
Reply

Trumble
07-01-2008, 07:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
So if anyone is unsure whether to convert or not to atheism, consider that things become lonelier.
Lonelier? I don't think so. If so, that's more than made up for by discarding the illusory comfort zone (no offence to the theists, just my personal belief), facing up to things as they really are and knowing what you make of your own existence is totally down to you. Only then can you really appreciate the good things and my own faith is the best way of dealing with the not so good ones. Although many atheists consider that just as illusory, of course! :)
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Tornado
07-01-2008, 11:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by glo
Hi Tornado

An atheist I know gets quite upset at the suggestion that atheists have 'no spirituality' ...

Do you, as an atheist, see yourself to be a spiritual person?
And how do you define spirituality (in the absence of 'the divine', which most believers would associate spirituality with)?

Since there is no clear definition of atheism (other than not believing there is enough evidence to believe in God), I guess these are questions to you personally, rather than about atheists per se.

Peace :)
Spiritual would be I guess beyond the realm of physical world. I myself am not spiritual because it sounds like magic to me and I guess I believe everything has an explanation, whether we know it or not.

format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
just wann give u a clear questions:

Who create the world..?

No one, it came about by natural processes.

Why do we born to the world?
No special reason, same reason as any other living thing

IF there no creator...there is no sign of life....
:D No creator and we still have life. If god can exist without a creator, why not normal things without a creator. Again, this question isn't really that important. If there was a god, I'd be deist. A God who was the first cause but doesn't care what happens (amoral).

believe the in the Greatness of Allah...

Allah can Create a man without a father like Adam and Jesus...

if no God Watching us day and Night...world will turn upside down...

who lead the sun and moon....?
why do earth orbit and move around?

No special reason

is all Allah taking care of it........

Believe in the sign...of Allah

Submit yourself to Allah....
Submit in Arabic mean..islam!...
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Lonelier? I don't think so. If so, that's more than made up for by discarding the illusory comfort zone (no offence to the theists, just my personal belief), facing up to things as they really are and knowing what you make of your own existence is totally down to you. Only then can you really appreciate the good things and my own faith is the best way of dealing with the not so good ones. Although many atheists consider that just as illusory, of course! :)
Lonelier in times of hardships. At those instance, you don't have someone ultimate to turn to. I agree with the rest.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-01-2008, 11:08 PM
i shall sum up your post in two words:


atheism sucks
Reply

Tornado
07-01-2008, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i shall sum up your post in two words:


atheism sucks
Oui, ugly truth.
Reply

Eeman
07-01-2008, 11:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Spiritual would be I guess beyond the realm of physical world. I myself am not spiritual because it sounds like magic to me and I guess I believe everything has an explanation, whether we know it or not.





Lonelier in times of hardships. At those instance, you don't have someone ultimate to turn to. I agree with the rest.
ummm if you agree with the rest then how can you be a athiest?
sorry i didnt get that!
Reply

TrueStranger
07-01-2008, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Here is the lowdown on being an atheist (my opinion).

There is nothing universally common between us atheists except for this bit: a lack of belief in a god. We may share some opinions but it doesn't bind us. For example, if we look at abortion: I may be pro-life while another atheist may be pro-choice.

Imagine someone very close to you passes away, you realize, there is no one really turn to so you can only end up sulking, knowing you will never see them again. It can be very lonely being an atheist. There is virtually no hope and knowing that know one is really behind you to get through the bad times.

Here's a bummer:No afterlife. Imagine this, because we think there is no god, that means that we will never see the people we truly love, our family and friends. When we die, that's it. Again, it's very sad and depressing.

There is no special meaning to life except to have kids. We are on a lonely planet along with the seven planets in our solar system that revolve around our sun, just one star among the 200+ billion stars in just our galaxy, just one galaxy amongst hundreds of billions of galaxies in our visible universe.

How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.

So if anyone is unsure whether to convert or not to atheism, consider that things become lonelier.

If you have any questions about being an atheist, just ask.
Our thoughts exist merely because they are created and generated by our minds. I would be lying if I said your thoughts and ideas actually don’t need a creator, because you are the creator of your ideas and thoughts, and without you they won’t exist. You generate your own ideas and thoughts by using your mind. But you haven’t created your own mind, but you exploit your mind in order to create ideas which benefit you.

Tell me can you compare your meager thoughts and ideas which can’t even be seen, ideas and thought which you can not even create or generate on your own had God not given you a brain with the Wisdom that Created and Perfected the Universe?

God has created this Universe and all that is encompassed in it as you create your own ideas in your own mind.

And your mind is only yours because God has bestow it upon you. And be not ungrateful by trying to use your mind to deny His Existence.

Salaam
Reply

Eeman
07-01-2008, 11:50 PM
i cannot imagine what it would be like to be an athiest!!!
i mean its far beyond my imagination, life must SUCK for you guys!
i mean no offence to any of the athiest brothers and sisters,
but how can you not believe in GOD???

what would be the purpose of creation?
how can this perfect creation of the one and only Creator be an accident?????
i mean do you guys not look around you, at nature at the planet itself and everything in it and around it and think HOW CAN THIS BE AN ACCIDENT? or a big bang or whatever it is!
i dont really understand the evolution process i know it may sound dumb but if we evolved from apes or whatever they believe we evolved from then why are the apes still apes? why do we give birth of humans by us women bearing them in our womb?
why doesnt the other apes just evolve into humans why has that stopped???

i'm really surprised in a way that athiests still carry on with life, ( yet again that is the mercy of God that He bestows upon them yet they are in denial about His existance) no offence but if i was an athiest (God forbid) i'd committed suicide a very long time ago!!!!!!!

for me knowing that there is a God up there is enough to carry on with life... and this is just acknowledging His existance, im not even talking about His favours and attritbutes and bounties and mercy.

cos the latter makes me wanna smile and live life more just to please Him and see what He has in store for me.

believing in the existance of God and i mean One God there is always light at the end of the tunnel if you strive hard for His sake there is always something better waiting for you, obviously if you dont then your doomed it only makes clear perfect sense.

why promise paradise to a wrongdoer when all the righteous have been striving hard all their lives to seek paradise?

if there is no hereafter then whats the use of this silly world and short life????????
if paradise and hell didnt exist it would only make sense to me if we were imortals.

accidents are never perfect, in fact the word accident is usually referred to disasters.
so how forget the major things like the universe and our own planet earth function so perfectly but lets start with ourselves... how can we as humans as in the way we are created be so perfect???

as an athiest does that not even make you think?

i once knew a born muslim brother that converted into athiesm and when he told me this i was SHOCKED! i asked him why did he do that and he gave me the same argument that i would say i have heard from every athiest i have come across...

he said if there was a God then why would this God torture so many innocent children and keep them in poverty, why is there killing and bloodshed?

and i just thought mannnnnnnnnn... why dont you do me a favour and read the message of God the Qur'an and maybe if Allah swt has mercy on you to open your eyes then you will get the answers to all your questions and you will understand.

im sorry if i've said anything to offend you but tornado i feel for you guys life must really suck!
Reply

al Amaanah
07-02-2008, 12:09 AM
Who create the world..?
No one, it came about by natural processes.
how is that possible? everything is created perfect. the moon, the sun etc. everything is in place, if u look at the human body only. who gave u ur seight? ur hearing? who can make ur heart stop?

may Allah guide u, ameen. : )
Reply

Ibn Abi Ahmed
07-02-2008, 12:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.
Creation not needing a creator? :) You're right - it does sound very irrational.

Like it is said, there are no atheists on a sinking ship.

{They recognize the favor of Allah ; then they deny it. And most of them are disbelievers.}[an-Nahl; 83]
Reply

SixTen
07-02-2008, 12:21 AM
From what I know from atheists, (well most of them), it is rather the disbelief of a particular God, like that of religion. They accept the universe exists and everything else -but they don't ultimatly know the cause of all being but at the same time they don't believe in the God of the religions - hence see no reason to believe in any God without evidence. I guess being atheist makes more sense than agnostic in that, if you arn't going to be accepting any religion, whats the point of being borderline on whether God exists or not especially since, when you go into agnosticism, what do you mean with that "I don't know if God exists" since they cannot define a God. I understand they are hinting that, maybe an intelligent deity exists (somehow), but when your in a nontheist mentality, it seems irrational to be borderline if God exists or not. Maybe deist, but agnosticsm is just bizarre O_O.

I have read about people going from atheism to theism/deism through science though (and Im not talking about someone finding some science miracle in Qur'an/bible). One particular atheist that rings a bell (though, being as forgetful as I am forgot his name), who was a very well known atheist, became a deist due to the complexity of DNA (which I presume he studied all his life). Sometimes, as often as religious people have propaganda, I think atheist have them too. Somehow, they convince people science tends to atheism, which I think is impossible - simply due to the fact that science is limited to this universe alone.

Well, the metaphysical realm (I take it we all accept this exists in that, their was time before the universe, I would deem anything not in this universe metaphysical for the sake of this arguement) is a confusing area to contemplate over, so I will end it here.
Reply

Tornado
07-02-2008, 12:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
ummm if you agree with the rest then how can you be a athiest?
sorry i didnt get that!
He (Trumble said): "Lonelier? I don't think so." I replied just lonely in times of hardships or perhaps when you want to achieve something, you can't just ask a god for help.

"If so, that's more than made up for by discarding the illusory comfort zone (no offence to the theists, just my personal belief), facing up to things as they really are and knowing what you make of your own existence is totally down to you. " I agreed with this.

Only then can you really appreciate the good things and my own faith is the best way of dealing with the not so good ones. Although many atheists consider that just as illusory, of course! I really don't know much about Buddhism but I'm guessing they've got approaches to deal with problems.

format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
Our thoughts exist merely because they are created and generated by our minds. I would be lying if I said your thoughts and ideas actually don’t need a creator, because you are the creator of your ideas and thoughts, and without you they won’t exist. You generate your own ideas and thoughts by using your mind. But you haven’t created your own mind, but you exploit your mind in order to create ideas which benefit you.

Tell me can you compare your meager thoughts and ideas which can’t even be seen, ideas and thought which you can not even create or generate on your own had God not given you a brain with the Wisdom that Created and Perfected the Universe?

God has created this Universe and all that is encompassed in it as you create your own ideas in your own mind.

And your mind is only yours because God has bestow it upon you. And be not ungrateful by trying to use your mind to deny His Existence.

Salaam
I'm guessing you think everything needs a creator, thoughts, watches, almost everything, except a god. Remember, god would be the best designed entity to exist, and who designed that, you say no one. I guess I don't find that convincing. As I said, even if god was a prime mover, I'd be a deist.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i cannot imagine what it would be like to be an athiest!!!
i mean its far beyond my imagination, life must SUCK for you guys!
It can be lonely yes, but it gives you an opportunity to make something out of your life.
i mean no offence to any of the athiest brothers and sisters,
but how can you not believe in GOD???

I used to believe in a god. I believe everything is natural and no magic invovled.
what would be the purpose of creation?

I've said it before, the purpose of our "creation" is the same as the purpose of the "creation" as every other living thing.

how can this perfection creation of the one and only Creator be and accident?????
i mean do you guys not look around you, at nature at the planet itself and everything in it and around it and think HOW CAN THIS BE AN ACCIDENT? or a big bang or whatever it is! Not an accident, but natural processes. Indeed everything is awesome

i dont really understand the evolution process i know it may sound dumb but if we evolved from apes or whatever they believe we evolved from then why are the apes still apes? Evolution describes a tree of life, every organism that exists today is on the outer edge of that tree. We didn't evolve from apes, we are apes. We share a common ancestor with the monkeys, so on the tree of life, it'd be at the point where the branches split into the monkey family and apes.why do we give birth of humans by us women bearing them in our womb?I don't know, evolution probably has an answer
why doesnt the other apes just evolve into humans why has that stopped???Evolution doesn't stop, it's incredibly slow. Evolution has no goals. Chances are, other apes will not evolve into something human like.

i'm really surprised in a way that athiests still carry on with life, ( yet again that is the mercy of God that He bestows upon them yet they are in denial about His existance) no offence but if i was an athiest (God forbid) i'd committed suicide a very long time ago!!!!!!! Life is very special. Each one of us won the lottery of life. Atheists would deem it even more special since this is it, while for those who believe we live on, it's a mere and relatively short test compared to future life

for me knowing that there is a God up there is enough to carry on with life... and this is just acknowledging His existance, im not even talking about His favours and attritbutes and bounties and mercy.

cos the latter makes me wanna smile and live life more just to please Him and see what He has in store for me.
If it makes you happy, I can't say no.
believing in the existance of God and i mean One God there is always light at the end of the tunnel if you strive hard for His sake there is always something better waiting for you, obviously if you dont then your doomed it only makes clear perfect sense.
Perfect sense to you, not me I guess
why promise paradise to a wrongdoer when all the righteous have been striving hard all their lives to seek paradise?
Atheist =/= wrongdoer
if there is no hereafter then whats the use of this silly world and short life???????? I don't think it's a silly world. No special (divine )reason.
if paradise and hell didnt exist it would only make sense to me if we were imortals.
You mean mortals? I don't get it

accidents are never perfect, in fact the word accident is usually preferred to disasters.
so how forget the major things like the universe and our own planet earth function so perfectly but lets start with ourselves... how can we as humans as in the way we are created be so perfect???
Are you sue that we are perfect?
as an athiest does that not even make you think? Indeed it does.

i once knew a born muslim brother that converted into athiesm and when he told me this i was SHOCKED! i asked him why did he do that and he gave me the same argument that i would say i have heard from every athiest i have come across...

he said if there was a God then why would this God torture so many innocent children and keep them in poverty, why is there killing and bloodshed?Not my reason to be an atheist. There's no evidence that it's these specific religions that are right.

and i just thought mannnnnnnnnn... why dont you do me a favour and read the message of God the Qur'an and maybe if Allah swt has mercy on you to open your eyes then you will get the answers to all your questions and you will understand. Here's another beef of mine. To come to a decisive conclusion on which religion I thought was right, I'd have to be read every single religious book out there, understand them fully, then see what I'd deem best. This however, would take forever.

im sorry if i've said anything to offend you but tornado i feel for you guys life must really suck!
It I guess doesn't have to. Depends on the person. I guess it does feel good for what the world really is.
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Eeman
07-02-2008, 12:47 AM
sorry tornado lol...
im just a little tired i ment mortals.


tornado: Here's another beef of mine. To come to a decisive conclusion on which religion I thought was right, I'd have to be read every single religious book out there, understand them fully, then see what I'd deem best. This however, would take forever.

i dont quiet agree with you there, it wouldnt take forever, there are not thousands of religions out there and billions of books for each religion.
i think you need to at least read a few to see whether it makes sense to you and answers the questions you may have obviously if they dont then the answer is simple its not for you and if it does then there you go you have found the truth.

you cannot simply be an athiest out cos you lack knowledge about religions and cannot be asked to read about it and look into it therefore opt for the easy option of not believing in God whatsoever. no offence there as we believe each soul carries the burden of its own sins and everyone has their own beliefs you cannot force something down someone's throat, but if ever in life you may have nothing to do or bored then i suggest you invest in a Qur'an and sit down with an open mind and read it. Insha'Allah Allah swt will guide you.
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Tornado
07-02-2008, 12:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by al Amaanah
how is that possible? everything is created perfect. the moon, the sun etc. everything is in place, if u look at the human body only. who gave u ur seight? ur hearing? who can make ur heart stop?

may Allah guide u, ameen. : )
Evolution has more than a satisfying answer to that.

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
Creation not needing a creator? :) You're right - it does sound very irrational.

Like it is said, there are no atheists on a sinking ship.

{They recognize the favor of Allah ; then they deny it. And most of them are disbelievers.}[an-Nahl; 83]
God not needing a creator, it's really the same thing. It's just not convincing.

format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
From what I know from atheists, (well most of them), it is rather the disbelief of a particular God, like that of religion. They accept the universe exists and everything else -but they don't ultimatly know the cause of all being but at the same time they don't believe in the God of the religions - hence see no reason to believe in any God without evidence. I guess being atheist makes more sense than agnostic in that, if you arn't going to be accepting any religion, whats the point of being borderline on whether God exists or not especially since, when you go into agnosticism, what do you mean with that "I don't know if God exists" since they cannot define a God. I understand they are hinting that, maybe an intelligent deity exists (somehow), but when your in a nontheist mentality, it seems irrational to be borderline if God exists or not. Maybe deist, but agnosticsm is just bizarre O_O.

Agnostics are lame. They state the obvious. If there was a championship match in a sport of some kind and if I asked them who you think is going to win, it'd be like saying since they haven't played the game, I don't know who's going to win. Yes we have no evidence for or against god, but do you think there is a god? You can be agnostic about everything.

I have read about people going from atheism to theism/deism through science though (and Im not talking about someone finding some science miracle in Qur'an/bible). One particular atheist that rings a bell (though, being as forgetful as I am forgot his name), who was a very well known atheist, became a deist due to the complexity of DNA (which I presume he studied all his life). Sometimes, as often as religious people have propaganda, I think atheist have them too. Somehow, they convince people science tends to atheism, which I think is impossible - simply due to the fact that science is limited to this universe alone.

You are talking about the Christian Francis Collins I presume, maybe not. The reason science turns people into atheism is because it answers questions like how is the world/we so complex. It gives incredibly simple answers and removes magic from it. The only reason I believed in a god was how could I have possible be made without some divine entity. Evolution gave me an answer that doesn't need god ( it can be helped by a god if it exists ) and then I looked at the evidence for gods in specific religions and I guess I haven't found any

Well, the metaphysical realm (I take it we all accept this exists in that, their was time before the universe, I would deem anything not in this universe metaphysical for the sake of this arguement) is a confusing area to contemplate over, so I will end it here.
I don't know much about physics and the answers are probably more wacky than we can dream of. Good post sixten.
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SixTen
07-02-2008, 12:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Evolution has more than a satisfying answer to that.



God not needing a creator, it's really the same thing. It's just not convincing.

I don't know much about physics and the answers are probably more wacky than we can dream of.
I googed francis collins and its not him :<.. Then again I heard several people have went into theist/deism due to DNA, so I didn't really give much info to help.

Also, in what way do you find evolution to make you not require a God? I mean, atheists existed even when their was no theory of evolution. What I mean is, it is not, how the stars, or galaxies or humans were formed (they were all, unanswered questions), but why does something rather than nothing exist, in my opinion. I am talking pre-bigbang. The theories of branes colliding and stuff, seem sort of "okay"?
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Tornado
07-02-2008, 01:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Also, in what way do you find evolution to make you not require a God? I mean, atheists existed even when their was no theory of evolution. What I mean is, it is not, how the stars, or galaxies or humans were formed (they were all, unanswered questions), but why does something rather than nothing exist, in my opinion. I am talking pre-bigbang. The theories of branes colliding and stuff, seem sort of "okay"?
Evolution can describe how processes came to be, i,e. perhaps gave some individual an advantage over other organisms. Basically, evolution + vast time = diversity today is enough for me. When you have such time, you'd expect things to be incredibly complex and designed like, which then is enough to describe DNA, etc because time is the biggest factor here for me. For atheists in the past, reasons were probably different. Maybe they saw that there was no evidence for any particular religion and saw that it was enough for them or how perhaps there were many religions and how they might have been contradictory to one another.

Why is there something rather than nothing? This is one tough question, the only answer I have is that we're not capable of understanding that concept. Did something come out of nothing, was there always something, was there a god who did this, who made god, etc,. it's just not easy to answer. Theories that physicists come up with describing pre-bigbang are beyond my scope of understanding. Again, I don't know how valid they are, but I'll take their word if they are convinced and have evidence to back it up.
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SixTen
07-02-2008, 01:31 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Evolution can describe how processes came to be, i,e. perhaps gave some individual an advantage over other organisms. Basically, evolution + vast time = diversity today is enough for me. For atheists in the past, reasons were probably different. Maybe they saw that there was no evidence for any particular religion and saw that it was enough for them or how perhaps there were many religions and how they might have been contradictory to one another.

Why is there something rather than nothing? This is one tough question, the only answer I have is that we're not capable of understanding that concept. Did something come out of nothing, was there always something, was there a god who did this, who made god, etc,. it's just not easy to answer. Theories that physicists come up with describing pre-bigbang are beyond my scope of understanding. Again, I don't know how valid they are, but I'll take their word if they are convinced and have evidence to back it up.
That who created God is something very strange that I hear from certain atheists - for 1 reason only. The creation of God is seen as the cause of God, yet atheists state (alot) that subatomic particles come into and out of existance without a cause yet they are dumbfounded when the same is stated for God.

I think, appying the universes laws on metaphysical (such as, requirement of things to be created, i.e. everything in this universe has a beginning or end) is an illogical comparison.
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Tornado
07-02-2008, 01:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
That who created God is something very strange that I hear from certain atheists - for 1 reason only. The creation of God is seen as the cause of God, yet atheists state (alot) that subatomic particles come into and out of existance without a cause yet they are dumbfounded when the same is stated for God.

I think, appying the universes laws on metaphysical (such as, requirement of things to be created, i.e. everything in this universe has a beginning or end) is an illogical comparison.
Do subatomic particles come into/out of existence? I don't know much about them though I would doubt it.

Second part: It's one way to escape this question. Why is it illogical?
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SixTen
07-02-2008, 01:45 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Do subatomic particles come into/out of existence? I don't know much about them though I would doubt it.

Second part: It's one way to escape this question. Why is it illogical?

Yes, it is widely believed that they do. Just go read upon a bit of quantum mechanics. Though the critics state we just don't know the cause, rather than their being none (Atheists tend to hold the latter belief).

It is illogical because, (I hope you are well with physics) all the laws you know and how everything is, was all programmed during the big bang. In the end, everything you see in this universe is limited qualitativly aswell as quantitativly. Outside the universe, you cannot make any factual statements of its nature in anyway. The metaphysical realm (that is, what we would deem outside this universe), does not follow the universe in any way form shape manner. Logic, is defined by laws, where these laws do not exist, how can we transfer the logic in this universe to a metaphysical realm? It is why it is illogical.
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Tornado
07-02-2008, 03:57 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Yes, it is widely believed that they do. Just go read upon a bit of quantum mechanics. Though the critics state we just don't know the cause, rather than their being none (Atheists tend to hold the latter belief).

It is illogical because, (I hope you are well with physics) all the laws you know and how everything is, was all programmed during the big bang. In the end, everything you see in this universe is limited qualitativly aswell as quantitativly. Outside the universe, you cannot make any factual statements of its nature in anyway. The metaphysical realm (that is, what we would deem outside this universe), does not follow the universe in any way form shape manner. Logic, is defined by laws, where these laws do not exist, how can we transfer the logic in this universe to a metaphysical realm? It is why it is illogical.
I don't want to attempt to explain something which I have little knowledge of so I don't know how valid a parallel between subatomic particle and a god is. So our logic is tied to this universe? This is sounding like a way of avoiding questions.
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Trumble
07-02-2008, 06:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Lonelier in times of hardships. At those instance, you don't have someone ultimate to turn to. I agree with the rest.
An odd position for an atheist. Surely that is only the case if that 'someone ultimate' actually exists? Otherwise any comfort can only be an illusion, a placebo (or at best a painkiller), and ultimate disappointment, pain and despair are inevitable. Far worse than just accepting the reality and moving on, I think.
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------
07-02-2008, 08:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i shall sum up your post in two words:

atheism sucks
:salamext:

SNAP!
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north_malaysian
07-02-2008, 09:26 AM
I have one question..

let say an atheist is on vacation in Phuket, he's sunbathing on the beach and suddenly a powerful tsunami comes and push him and he has nothing to grab and no body would ever help him....

what would an atheist be thinking during that time?
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MunirAhmadKamil
07-02-2008, 09:34 AM
Hey Tornado...many of my atheist friends say that they are what they are is because they say there is lack of signs of existence of god. Is this what you hold on to?

If you dont mind me asking...in space..our earth hardly gets hit with meteors..where as the moon, which is very closely positioned to us is full of craters. Dont you think its not just by pure luck earth is somehow protected for a very long time? Mars is full of craters too.
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'Abd-al Latif
07-02-2008, 10:32 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.
How do you deny Allah and you were dead and He gave you life? Again He will cause you to die and again bring you to life, then you shall be brought back to Him
[Qur'an 2:28]

If you have any questions about being an atheist, just ask.
Life must get pretty lonely knowing that you will never see the people you love. In the Qur'an Allah talks a lot about the human heart because the heart is the source of all your emotions and it is where one truly feels sadness and happiness. So Allah says about this:

“Those who believe and whose hearts find tranquility in the Remembrance of Allaah, verily in the Remembrance of Allaah do hearts find tranquility.” [Surah Ar-Radd: 28]
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czgibson
07-02-2008, 11:30 AM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by - Serene -
seriously, i sometimes think why do atheists come on islamic forums, if they believer that there is no God, they waste the only chance of lifetime they have on a BORING ISLAMIC FORUM!! how sad seriously...
We think very differently - correct?

I don't know if you've noticed, but currently the world tends to divide itself into different groups who think very differently from one another. In fact, some people are prepared to kill others because they think very differently. I view this as a tragic state of affairs.

The problem is not that these groups of people are simply destined to hate each other forever, it's that they don't understand where the other is coming from. If they started to try and understand each other better, there is a good chance that they would get on better, without the need for hatred and killing.

Incidentally, I'm sorry to hear that you think this forum is boring. I think it's a vital channel of communication between Muslims and any others who want to be here, and long may it continue.

Peace
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Pygoscelis
07-02-2008, 03:35 PM
Tornado, I'm just guessing here, but I'm getting the impression that you are a recent apostate. Am I correct?

The road away from religion can be a rough one, especially if your family, friends, and community is still wrapped up in it. My experience with many apostate friends, and my studies as well (Read Amazing Conversions by Altmeyer and Hunsberger, great read) have shown that this discomfort, loneliness, and angst passes as time goes by. Its really not suprising that apostates go through it when they realize that they have been programmed from birth to believe in a fantasy and that this fantasy still pervades all aspects of life around you.

Learning to live without the crutch of religion takes a while, but most of us DO get there and in the end we live much fuller lives, appreciating life for what it really is. Its the only life we get, rather than a testing ground or wating area for something else. Live it. Love it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Imagine someone very close to you passes away, you realize, there is no one really turn to so you can only end up sulking, knowing you will never see them again.
True. Atheists have to learn to mourn. This is actually a very important thing to develop. Too often theists don't mourn and don't let go. They instead live in denial, and pretend that their loved one is "in a better place now". Learning to accept loss and move on is character development.

There is no special meaning to life except to have kids. We are on a lonely planet along with the seven planets in our solar system that revolve around our sun, just one star among the 200+ billion stars in just our galaxy, just one galaxy amongst hundreds of billions of galaxies in our visible universe.
The meaning of life is to give life meaning. If your life lacks meaning, you haven't given it any. I am an atheist and my life is full of meaning. If you are a recent apostate perhaps you have not given much thought to the meaning in your life, aside from the ingroup identity you'd have had as a believer.

How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.
It didn't need a creator. That isn't irrational. If complexity and beauty requires creation then God is the most in need of a creator. An ancient philosopher whose name I forget said "The world is perched on the back of a giant turtle". When asked what that turtle is standing on he replied "Another turtle, its turtles all the way down". In other words saying all this needs a creator only moves the question of our existence back a step.

So if anyone is unsure whether to convert or not to atheism, consider that things become lonelier.
Atheists are more out of the closet than in the past, but we are still pretty rare, and apostates even rarer, so you may also be feeling isolated. I can assure you that I have known many apostates (from many religions) and this loneliness you are feeling did not last for them. I would suggest you speak with such people. Private message me if you would like me to send you some resource links that may help you find such a community of apostates who have gone through what you are going through.
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Pygoscelis
07-02-2008, 03:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Glo
An atheist I know gets quite upset at the suggestion that atheists have 'no spirituality' ...
Glo, I find this interesting. Because I myself reached this stage on my own journey only a few years back. It depends on what you mean by "spiritual", but I do believe I may very well be that. You do not have to believe in the supernatural to see benefit in yoga or meditation. And you do not have to believe in the supernatural to feel a connectedness with and awe of nature.

And though I realize it is all psychological, that doesn't make "psychic energies" any less real or potent. A mood (good or bad) can spread through a room like a virus.
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Pygoscelis
07-02-2008, 03:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i'm really surprised in a way that athiests still carry on with life, ( yet again that is the mercy of God that He bestows upon them yet they are in denial about His existance) no offence but if i was an athiest (God forbid) i'd committed suicide a very long time ago!!!!!!!
If this is true, then I dearly hope you never lose your faith. Though I strongly suspect that if you lost your faith you would learn to appreciate life in a whole new way.

format_quote Originally Posted by North Malaysian
let say an atheist is on vacation in Phuket, he's sunbathing on the beach and suddenly a powerful tsunami comes and push him and he has nothing to grab and no body would ever help him....

what would an atheist be thinking during that time?
Other than survival, probably about his family. He may grow desparate and irrational and grasp at straws, like gods or psychic powers or what have you, but the old tired phrase "there are no atheists in foxholes" is actually very untrue. There are military organizations of atheists (who actually have been in said "foxholes") who prove that.

format_quote Originally Posted by MunirAhmadKumil
If you dont mind me asking...in space..our earth hardly gets hit with meteors..where as the moon, which is very closely positioned to us is full of craters. Dont you think its not just by pure luck earth is somehow protected for a very long time? Mars is full of craters too.
I see this question from theists pretty regularly. The jist of it is that the random existence of a world so perfect as to support human life is extremely unlikely. Change just one small constant about the universe and we could not exist. Yet we would not be here asking the question were it not so. The problem with the theist logic is that it looks at everything with hindsight. It is also extremely unlikely that any specific person would win the lottery, yet some of them do. The universe is massive, almost all of it is hostile to human life. Only where life could exist could beings be pondering at how perfectly suited for life the place is.

The earth was not made for humans. Humans were made for (and by) the earth.

format_quote Originally Posted by Serene
That mockery comes after they make a mockery of our religion, which is not tolerated.
When people declare eternal torture appropriate for all who don't share in their delusions, it should not suprise anyone that they are mocked, and feared.
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Tornado
07-02-2008, 05:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by - Serene -
*yawn* ur so not funny,

Taking the mick

seriously, i sometimes think why do atheists come on islamic forums, if they believer that there is no God, they waste the only chance of lifetime they have on a BORING ISLAMIC FORUM!! how sad seriously...
I don't think it's boring since there are intresting discussion going on all the time. It's not a waste because I want to be sure the choices I've made make sense and see how they stand to criticism.

Pygoscelis, thanks for your posts.
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SixTen
07-02-2008, 06:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
I don't want to attempt to explain something which I have little knowledge of so I don't know how valid a parallel between subatomic particle and a god is. So our logic is tied to this universe? This is sounding like a way of avoiding questions.
I mean fair enough you are not understanding what I am saying - but it isn't fair to accuse me of avoiding a question - when you are doubting real physics. Sorry but logic is tied to this universe, that is a fact. You can't appy the logic you have in this universe to something that does not exist in this universe.
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TrueStranger
07-02-2008, 07:27 PM
I'm guessing you think everything needs a creator, thoughts, watches, almost everything, except a god. Remember, god would be the best designed entity to exist, and who designed that, you say no one. I guess I don't find that convincing. As I said, even if god was a prime mover, I'd be a deist.
Tornado

Who said anything about God being designed or created.

I notice that you like to compare yourself and the material items which you perceive in life with God. That is the first mistake. Just for a mere second you have to step back and comprehend the notion that you can’t compare yourself and that which is created by the Creator.

You don’t want to acknowledge the fact that you have being created by God, while you want to believe that god was created?

Quick question,

Let’s assume that god was created, and then god created you, then will you worship god?

My friend we could go in circles, belief doesn’t come from the mind it comes from the heart. I could entertain a thought, and ask millions of questions which all start with how and why, but in reality those questions are more likely to deceive you than to guide you. I won’t say atheists or atheism sucks, I have no right to insult you, but stop with the questions for once and try to comprehend all that surrounds you. But at the end of the day you could be whatever you want to be. And not a single word i say would change your mind, I am not the one which guidance.

But in all honesty, I wish you to take the righteous path, the path which is your sole purpose, and the path which will bring you true inner peace.


Peace.
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Chuck
07-02-2008, 08:22 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
I googed francis collins and its not him :<..
You are talking about Antony Flew?
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Trumble
07-03-2008, 07:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
Tornado

Who said anything about God being designed or created.
SixTen did, if you look back a few posts.

format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
That who created God is something very strange that I hear from certain atheists - for 1 reason only. The creation of God is seen as the cause of God, yet atheists state (alot) that subatomic particles come into and out of existance without a cause yet they are dumbfounded when the same is stated for God.
As so often when a theist attempt to describe atheistic views you end up with a strawman. Atheists are "dumbfounded" at nothing of the sort.
No atheist sees the creation of God as the cause of God. To an atheist God HAS no cause as God does not exist.

The point is that theists insist everything else must have a cause while God does not, while providing no satisfactory answer as to why God should be an exception (and before anybody bothers, I've seen them all). The point then arises that if the most complicated entity of all, God, is not created (and hence, by definition, does not require a creator) then why are theists "dumbfounded" at the suggestion that a 'creator' is not required for everything else?

The whole theist argument stands on the assumption that God is somehow different in that respect. That assumption is based solely on the words "because He is". God is what He is defined to be.
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north_malaysian
07-03-2008, 07:35 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis

Other than survival, probably about his family. He may grow desparate and irrational and grasp at straws, like gods or psychic powers or what have you
ok...thanks for the answer


format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
"there are no atheists in foxholes"
can you explain this?
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suffiyan007
07-03-2008, 12:56 PM
Rejecting faith some their mentality quite extreme...! cause deny God does not exist...! God is a watcher all over the universe...the earth,planets,heaven,and Hell....!why Alien Exist...other than Human cause Creation of the earth and heaven...a Creator.!
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Pygoscelis
07-03-2008, 03:06 PM
Did Suffiyan007 just suggest that Aliens are God?

If so, its not a unique hypthesis and and interesting one. The idea that we are a group of interstellar colonists who lost contact with home as well as our advanced technology in some massive disaster. Imagine we come into contact with aliens only to realize they are our cousins.
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Ebrahim
07-03-2008, 11:41 PM
I must agree that attempting to apply a logic system acquired from this world to a different one should not be expected to end successfully. It may look like it's an excuse to avoid a question... but I think avoiding a question for a legitimate reason is better than trying to answer it based on flawed reasoning.

I myself have spent a lot of time on the line between Islam and agnosticism. I know that if God existed and any religion at all were true, it would be Islam- but I have never been 100% sure of any religion.

We human beings often overlook our own limits in an air of unintentional arrogance. I am guilty of it myself all the time, and I would like to point it out here in this discussion. Here is one way I like to explain it. If you were to live in a room with a monkey for a million years, given only the task of teach that monkey calculus, would you be able to do it? The answer is obviously no, but the real point comes in asking why not. Why not? Well the monkey not only doesn't care to learn calculus, it cannot comprehend calculus. Calcilus is at a level of thinking that is beyond the monkey's perception.

Not only is the monkey unable to ever learn calculus, it actually doesn't know where its limit is. It doesn't sit there thinking, "Man I wish I could do calculus like that awesome human." It probably just wants a banana.

Now with humans, it is likely the same deal. We have a limit somewhere, and we know that. But we don't know WHERE it is! And we don't know how much knowledge and understanding lies hidden beyond the limits of the mere 5 senses we use to formulate our meager interpretation of the universe.

Okay sorry if that analogy went a little too far, it may not have made any sense. But what I mean to say is basically that human logic and reasoning just isn't all it's cracked up to be. Because the reality is that we cannot know where the limit to our perception lies, and thus we can only apply our learned system of reasoning to matters of this world in which we learned it. There must be a lot more to everything else than we can even imagine.

That "everything else" is referred to in arabic as the "ghayb." Ghayb is that which we not only do not know, but cannot know or perceive with our limitations as human beings.

I am still not 100% sure of any religion, though I like to call myself muslim and I am most of the time (I know it's a weird situation). But I do know that I believe in ghayb, and I think even atheists should at least accept its possible existence. Going around rejecting everything based on the all-high super-awesome "human reason" will never get us far.
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SixTen
07-04-2008, 01:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
SixTen did, if you look back a few posts.



As so often when a theist attempt to describe atheistic views you end up with a strawman. Atheists are "dumbfounded" at nothing of the sort.
No atheist sees the creation of God as the cause of God. To an atheist God HAS no cause as God does not exist.

The point is that theists insist everything else must have a cause while God does not, while providing no satisfactory answer as to why God should be an exception (and before anybody bothers, I've seen them all). The point then arises that if the most complicated entity of all, God, is not created (and hence, by definition, does not require a creator) then why are theists "dumbfounded" at the suggestion that a 'creator' is not required for everything else?

The whole theist argument stands on the assumption that God is somehow different in that respect. That assumption is based solely on the words "because He is". God is what He is defined to be.

Here is where you make a mistake. Theists do say the universe has a cause - for if it did not - it is as good as not being created, that is it existed always. It is a fact that time existed where the universe did not exist, so itself and everything within is finite. Now, you may think the universe just came into existance by accident, by all means, but some of us don't. Its existance and subsequently ours, it has made us wonder about things beyond this universe. We find that, we could not have a finite thing existing suddenly in an, conceptwise can be considered infinite (i.e. we can't limit) timespan (i.e period before the universe existed). It gets us wondering why anything exists at all. Then that somewhat leads to the principle of causality/Kalalm's cosmological arguement. Some conclude from it, a God exists, some don't. But, by definition, God is causeless. So you can't have a God that is created, as that would mean its no longer God, hence its stupid to argue if God is created or not, you either believe he exists or not.

God is different, as is anything else outside the limits of this universe, just because its not bound to it, but surely that is obvious? You can see God as a solution to a problem, you may not understand it, just like you won't understand why the square root of minus 1 can be a solution to a pragmatic problem in finance.
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Tornado
07-04-2008, 01:25 AM
Who created Allah is an irrelevant question for myself because you can keep asking who created that god that made Allah, who made that god that made another god that made Allah, etc.. and seeing as how this particular argument about logic not applying outside the universe isn't swaying me away from my opinion convincingly enough because it's just very confusing/convoluted.

That's obviously not the reason why I'm an atheist. The point is, I'm content that everything (complexity) can arise by itself without a god.

Again, this doesn't bother me because let's just say there is a god who did happen to start the universe. (I'm an atheist because I think there is no god, if I did, I'd be a deist, or I could be agnostic, basically, we (atheists, agnostics, deists) all think that a personal god doesn't exist.)

Now, it's your job to prove that the religion of Islam is the right one. How do I know that events said in the holy books are factual or whether they were man-made?
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Duncan Ferguson
07-04-2008, 09:25 AM
If there was a god or gods how would we know?

God is held to be a supernatural entity. A supernatural being which differs in kind from a natural existence must exist without limitations. This amounts to saying that God has no nature.

As a confirmed and lifelong atheist, I cannot prove the non-existence of a god, because the tools to do so do not exist. By the same token, theists cannot prove that such a deity exists.
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Duncan Ferguson
07-04-2008, 09:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Ebrahim
We human beings often overlook our own limits in an air of unintentional arrogance. I am guilty of it myself all the time, and I would like to point it out here in this discussion. Here is one way I like to explain it. If you were to live in a room with a monkey for a million years, given only the task of teach that monkey calculus, would you be able to do it? The answer is obviously no, but the real point comes in asking why not. Why not? Well the monkey not only doesn't care to learn calculus, it cannot comprehend calculus. Calculus is at a level of thinking that is beyond the monkey's perception.

Not only is the monkey unable to ever learn calculus, it actually doesn't know where its limit is. It doesn't sit there thinking, "Man I wish I could do calculus like that awesome human." It probably just wants a banana.
This is a fallacious argument. The thing that learns calculus is not a monkey but an entity only just short of learning calculus.

format_quote Originally Posted by Ebrahim
Now with humans, it is likely the same deal. We have a limit somewhere, and we know that. But we don't know WHERE it is! And we don't know how much knowledge and understanding lies hidden beyond the limits of the mere 5 senses we use to formulate our meager interpretation of the universe.
You contradict yourself when you speak of an epistemology outside the realm of epistemology. What evidence do you have of these limits? There are things that we can never know, for sure, but you are making an assumption that such things exist. How can we know that something that cannot be known can be known?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ebrahim
Okay sorry if that analogy went a little too far, it may not have made any sense. But what I mean to say is basically that human logic and reasoning just isn't all it's cracked up to be. Because the reality is that we cannot know where the limit to our perception lies, and thus we can only apply our learned system of reasoning to matters of this world in which we learned it. There must be a lot more to everything else than we can even imagine.
Are you saying that there is a limit to imagination?

Regarding the explanatory power of reason, provided that something is based upon evidence and is neither internally nor externally contradictory then it can be called knowledge. If something doesn't fulfil these requirements then how can it be called knowledge?

format_quote Originally Posted by Ebrahim
That "everything else" is referred to in arabic as the "ghayb." Ghayb is that which we not only do not know, but cannot know or perceive with our limitations as human beings.

I am still not 100% sure of any religion, though I like to call myself muslim and I am most of the time (I know it's a weird situation). But I do know that I believe in ghayb, and I think even atheists should at least accept its possible existence. Going around rejecting everything based on the all-high super-awesome "human reason" will never get us far.
Ghayb is a word with which I am unfamilar, but it seems to be a very useful term. Again, what you are saying when you say you believe in ghayb is that you can know things that can't be known. I agree with you that the concept of ghayb exists, but a more rational approach would state that if something can't be shown to exist then it probably doesn't exist.
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root
07-04-2008, 11:15 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by MunirAhmadKamil

If you dont mind me asking...in space..our earth hardly gets hit with meteors..where as the moon, which is very closely positioned to us is full of craters. Dont you think its not just by pure luck earth is somehow protected for a very long time? Mars is full of craters too.
Actually our earth is hit more often than that of the moon!
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Duncan Ferguson
07-04-2008, 11:30 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by root
Actually our earth is hit more often than that of the moon!
This is true. Most meteorites burn up in the Earth's atmosphere - an atmosphere brought about by the existence of life rather than the other way around. Meteor and cometary dust grains contribute about 300 tonnes of organic material to the Earth every year.
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Azy
07-04-2008, 12:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
It is a fact that time existed where the universe did not exist, so itself and everything within is finite.
Will you please qualify this statement?
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
But, by definition, God is causeless.
That is the problem that Trumble is getting at.
Theists say the universe is so complex and amazing that it must be created.
Theists say God is so complex and amazing but it's ok, he's uncreated..
why? Because we said so.
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
So you can't have a God that is created, as that would mean its no longer God, hence its stupid to argue if God is created or not, you either believe he exists or not.
It is perfectly acceptable to argue the point when theists wave their magic wand and poof away all reason and consistency when talking about what does and doesn't need creating and why (if why is even a relevant question in this field).
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
You can see God as a solution to a problem, you may not understand it, just like you won't understand why the square root of minus 1 can be a solution to a pragmatic problem in finance.
Aren't the properties of -1 only such because we define them that way?
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SixTen
07-04-2008, 01:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Will you please qualify this statement?
What do you mean?

That is the problem that Trumble is getting at.
Theists say the universe is so complex and amazing that it must be created.
Theists say God is so complex and amazing but it's ok, he's uncreated..
why? Because we said so.
Incorrect, the Universe can be simple, it does not make it more likely to exist without a cause, to just randomly exist, come into creation at a random moment out of chance.

You see, the universe is something which had a beginning - We say something must have existed without a beginning i.e. God, for anything to make sense.

It is perfectly acceptable to argue the point when theists wave their magic wand and poof away all reason and consistency when talking about what does and doesn't need creating and why (if why is even a relevant question in this field).
Aren't the properties of -1 only such because we define them that way?
God has been the solution via reason to why something exists rather than nothing by philosophers for thousands of years, its not something which just popped out of the bible or Qur'an. It is a philosophical view, of everything. Something which does not need a cause must exist for anything else to exist - and we know this isn't the universe (which, btw, people did argue before, that the universe has always existed so its no point arguing about God) as now it is known that it had a beginning.
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Muezzin
07-05-2008, 12:04 PM
See, until philosophers and scientists become one and the same again (like back in the day), these arguments will continue ad infinitum.

Oh well. At least they help keep the Internet alive.
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Azy
07-05-2008, 03:57 PM
Muezzin, what's a PhD?
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
What do you mean?
You said "It is a fact that time existed where the universe did not exist", I'm just curious as to where this information came from and why you think it is correct.
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Incorrect, the Universe can be simple, it does not make it more likely to exist without a cause, to just randomly exist, come into creation at a random moment out of chance.
What do you mean by "can be simple", last time I checked the universe was a very complex place.
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
You see, the universe is something which had a beginning - We say something must have existed without a beginning i.e. God, for anything to make sense.
Explain to me why something must have existed without a beginning, and then explain why that thing must be God.
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
God has been the solution via reason to why something exists rather than nothing by philosophers for thousands of years, its not something which just popped out of the bible or Qur'an. It is a philosophical view, of everything. Something which does not need a cause must exist for anything else to exist - and we know this isn't the universe (which, btw, people did argue before, that the universe has always existed so its no point arguing about God) as now it is known that it had a beginning.
God has never been the solution "via reason", God has always been the solution to all the questions that human discovery has yet to answer. If it was possible to reason with the idea of God then we wouldn't be here discussing it, it would just be a matter of fact.
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Muezzin
07-06-2008, 02:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Muezzin, what's a PhD?
Good point.

Except philosophy and science are still seen as separate fields. Faith is fundametally a philospohical endeavour, no?

Anyway, I think I'm driving Tornado's topic off-topic. Sorry.
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Tornado
07-06-2008, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Good point.

Except philosophy and science are still seen as separate fields. Faith is fundametally a philospohical endeavour, no?

Anyway, I think I'm driving Tornado's topic off-topic. Sorry.
That's O.K. Forget about first cause/etc.. Not a problem for atheists anyway since even if there was a god, it'd be a deist god.

What evidence is there that the holy books were factual and not made up by man?
Reply

Fishman
07-06-2008, 09:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Duncan Ferguson
This is true. Most meteorites burn up in the Earth's atmosphere - an atmosphere brought about by the existence of life rather than the other way around. Meteor and cometary dust grains contribute about 300 tonnes of organic material to the Earth every year.
:sl:
The Earth did have an atmosphere before life, it just wasn't breathable. Venus is smaller than earth and closer to the sun, but its atmosphere is much thicker than ours. Why wouldn't the early earth have an Atmosphere?
:w:
Reply

Uthman
07-06-2008, 09:39 PM
Hi Tornado,

format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
What evidence is there that the holy books were factual and not made up by man?
This is quoted from a post by Ansar Al-'Adl here.

1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.
2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:
-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.
3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:
-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text. As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.
Regards
Reply

Tornado
07-06-2008, 09:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
Hi Tornado,



This is quoted from a post by Ansar Al-'Adl here.

1. The Power of the Qur'anic Message:
-it is universal, unrestricted by time and applicable to any nation/culture. The Qur'an is by far the most widely followed and acted-upon book in the world. As for the Bible, most Christians follow the Church over the Bible, and each denomination has its own bible anyway. The fact that there is no other book in the world that forms the constitution of the lives of billions of followers is itself a sign.
-it is practical and logical, it can be established practically in society and is logically able to address the fundamental questions relating to all aspects of our universe.
-it is comprehensive, addressing all fundamental sectors of human life, be it spritual, physical, mental, social/societal, politcal, environmental, economic, etc.
-it is natural, in concordance with a person's nature and what they feel deep inside to be the truth.
-it is clear and consistent, free of the changes in worldview and understanding that dominate the works of human beings.
-it is deep, having provoked thousands upon thousands of volumes of exegesis, expounding upon its meaning and revealing fascinating details that many people otherwise miss in their reading of the Qur'an.
2. The Power of the Qur'anic Style:
-it is Interactive, the text seems alive as it responds to the very questions that arise in one's mind at that moment. It speaks to the reader and delivers specific yet universal advice.
-it is Inerrant, free from contradictons and discrepancies, or other errors that would normally be found in the works of human beings.
-it is Memorizable; the Qur'an is the only book in the world which is continuously being memorized by millions of people and recited daily. No other book has been committed to memory by so many followers, as though it fits in one's mind as a key in a lock.
-its Language, the Qur'anic arabic is a stunning miracle in itself, its style is powerful and its recitation is melodious. More info: Here, Here, Here.
3. The Power of the Qur'anic Text:
-it is Preserved, even after fourteen and a half centuries, the Qur'an is recited today exactly as it was first revealed. Thus it was free of the tampering that befell other religious scriptures.
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text. As well, there are the Qur'anic Prophecies.
-its Authorship; the context in which the Qur'an was revealed leaves the reader with no other conclusion than the fact that it could only be the word of God.
Regards
I was really hoping you wouldn't go to the book for evidence. I'm asking whether these events actually happened, or any in any other holy books.
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KAding
07-07-2008, 11:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
i shall sum up your post in two words:

atheism sucks
Well, it depends with what religion you compare it with I suppose. After all, atheism does provide relief from archaic moral codes or meaningless rituals.
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suffiyan007
07-08-2008, 03:10 PM
A life grasp in life, we must adopt the Religion as our faith,without Faith and guidance,no where we are going.A religion,is a road we gonna take,there a lotsa religion,Allah sees which one we choose...Allah had created lotsa religion in the world....is to see the people have faith to Allah or not..The World is Created by the Light of Muhammad pBuh...no guidance if not Islam revealed the truth!
Reply

LennyLen
07-16-2008, 09:48 PM
Hi all. Just came on here for some general reading but became quite absorbed in this topic.

My view of religion is that is simply a guide on how to live your life. I believe that the parables in religious books are not to be taken literally. Did any of them really happen ? God is simply the answer to the unknown, but does god really exist ? How easy it is to have all of lifes questions answered by saying 'God did it'.
I believe that WE created God to eleviate our own fears, to provide us comfort in times of uncertainty, and to give hope to a unexplained existance.
Im not sure
Now lets just say there is a God....He gave humans free will. So why is it that we would then be punished (for eternity might I add) for exercising that free will (i.e Not believing in God). Would God enjoy punishing us ? Why not allow us to use the freedom and knowledge that he gave us ?
Why was God so prominent at the time these religious books were written, yet now absent ?

Religious texts were written at a time and by a people who did not understand their place on the earth or in the universe, much the same as today really (The only difference being that our advancement in technology has allowed us to expand on and confirm theories that have been around for centuries).


format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
-its other Remarkable features; many Muslims find a striking concordance between many Qur'anic statements and established scientific truths, which could not have been known by any normal human being 14 centuries ago. (see here). Many Muslims have also found the Qur'anic perfection extends even to various mathematical miracles within the text.
I find this statement slightly arrogant to assume that human beings 14 centuries ago were not intelligent or knowlegable enough to comprehend science.
For example, Egyptian civilisations out date Islam by at least 5000yrs, yet their understanding of the sciences, the universe, etc, was pretty vast.
Egyptians could perform the four basic mathematical operations; addition, subtraction, multiplication, and division. They could use fractions, calculate the volumes of boxes and pyramids, and calculate the surface areas of rectangles, triangles, circles and even spheres. They understood basic concepts of algebra and geometry, and could solve simple sets of simultaneous equations.
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Tornado
07-16-2008, 10:28 PM
The Library of Alexandria existed about 2 millenia ago and contained vast amounts of knowledge. What I find remarkable is that someone back in those days attempted to calculate the circumference of the Earth and was not that far off when you think about how long ago that was. I wonder exactly how much that library contained having been burned down : (
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Fishman
07-16-2008, 10:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
The Library of Alexandria existed about 2 millenia ago and contained vast amounts of knowledge. What I find remarkable is that someone back in those days attempted to calculate the circumference of the Earth and was not that far off when you think about how long ago that was.
:sl:
What I find remarkable is that somebody burnt it down. We still don't know the true culprit...
:w:
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Trumble
07-17-2008, 06:24 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LennyLen
I find this statement slightly arrogant to assume that human beings 14 centuries ago were not intelligent or knowlegable enough to comprehend science.
In fairness, that's not the point being made. He is saying that the Qur'an contains references that refer to, and only make full sense when the reader is aware of, scientific phenomenon that have only been discovered/hypothesised recently (relativity, plate tectonics, the Big Bang, etc), and hence by implication 'proving' the Qur'an was of divine authorship. It's a topic that crops up fairly frequently here. You might want to check out this site, http://www.scienceinquran.com/. You will find atheistic responses, too, but as they frequently lurk on "anti-islamic" sites you will need to hunt those down yourself. Just try and keep an open mind, because you will find in such matters nobody else does!

Many of the other points you raise have been discussed frequently here, as well. Don't be afraid to dig up old topics if you have a fresh perspective on them.
Reply

LennyLen
07-17-2008, 07:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
In fairness, that's not the point being made. He is saying that the Qur'an contains references that refer to, and only make full sense when the reader is aware of, scientific phenomenon that have only been discovered/hypothesised recently (relativity, plate tectonics, the Big Bang, etc), and hence by implication 'proving' the Qur'an was of divine authorship. It's a topic that crops up fairly frequently here. You might want to check out this site, http://www.scienceinquran.com/. You will find atheistic responses, too, but as they frequently lurk on "anti-islamic" sites you will need to hunt those down yourself. Just try and keep an open mind, because you will find in such matters nobody else does!

Many of the other points you raise have been discussed frequently here, as well. Don't be afraid to dig up old topics if you have a fresh perspective on them.
How does that 'prove' divine authorship. You are making assumptions based on your belief, but belief doesnt 'prove' anything. Who is to say that these 'scientific phenomenon' has only been discovered recently ? Knowledge can be lost over time. Knowledge can also, and most likely has also been destroyed by other civilisations who's beliefs differ.
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Trumble
07-17-2008, 07:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by LennyLen
How does that 'prove' divine authorship. You are making assumptions based on your belief, but belief doesnt 'prove' anything.
I am doing no such thing; you might want to check my profile (and indeed my frequent previous posts on this topic) to see what my beliefs actually are. I was merely pointing out that you were misinterpreting what Osman had said and pointing you in the direction of further understanding of the point he was making.
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Duncan Ferguson
07-18-2008, 07:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
The Earth did have an atmosphere before life, it just wasn't breathable. Venus is smaller than earth and closer to the sun, but its atmosphere is much thicker than ours. Why wouldn't the early earth have an Atmosphere?
:w:
That wasn't what I meant, so just to clarify, things entering the Earth's atmosphere tend to burn up because of the composition of the Earth's atmosphere. This composition (not the atmosphere itself) has been brought about by life. It has changed over billions of years and is still changing today. In this I think we agree.
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Azy
07-18-2008, 10:03 AM
Seems odd that half the time people complain about atheists enjoying the material aspects of this world with reckless abandon, then the other half saying their lives must suck.

I'm technically not an atheist but for the purposes of this I might as well be. I quite enjoy my existence and I don't think it is nearly as materialistic or debauched as some people imagine.

(is that THE Duncan Ferguson? :D )
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Duncan Ferguson
07-18-2008, 10:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Seems odd that half the time people complain about atheists enjoying the material aspects of this world with reckless abandon, then the other half saying their lives must suck.

I'm technically not an atheist but for the purposes of this I might as well be. I quite enjoy my existence and I don't think it is nearly as materialistic or debauched as some people imagine.

(is that THE Duncan Ferguson? :D )
It would be funny if it was.

What is funny is how often the religious unambiguously state that without the moral input of their deity then we'd all live debauched and self-interested lives, as if debauchery and self-interest would be the natural state of affairs.
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Fishman
07-18-2008, 11:33 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Duncan Ferguson
That wasn't what I meant, so just to clarify, things entering the Earth's atmosphere tend to burn up because of the composition of the Earth's atmosphere. This composition (not the atmosphere itself) has been brought about by life. It has changed over billions of years and is still changing today. In this I think we agree.
:sl:
Don't they burn because of ram pressure, not the oxygen?
:w:
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Duncan Ferguson
07-18-2008, 11:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
Don't they burn because of ram pressure, not the oxygen?
:w:
Ram pressure is important in that it causes a body to heat up, or effectively to transfer energy of motion to heat energy. However, burning is defined as a reaction with oxygen, itself helped by the amount of heat energy. That's how I understand it, anyway. It's not an important point since the original premise was that meteors and meteorites don't do as much damage as they could given the absence of an atmosphere.
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ajazz
07-21-2008, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.
Assalamulykum

may be you need to read my post here

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...allah-swt.html

.
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Tornado
07-21-2008, 04:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by ajazz
Assalamulykum

may be you need to read my post here

http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...allah-swt.html

.
I wish you had read the thread. Whether there is a god doesn't concern me. If there was a god, I would be a deist meaning that such a god, I can say, may have been a prime mover but could care less about what happens. My question is rather, what evidence is there that your religion is correct, never mind whether god exists or not. So far, only one of Osman's post tried to provide that and hopefully when I get time I'll reply to that post.
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Skavau
07-21-2008, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
Who create the world..?
Why do you imagine that someone must have created the world?

format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
Why do we born to the world?
Because a man and a woman decided to have sexual intercourse for the purposes of procreation. That's traditionally how we come around - although with expanding technology, I could give more unlikely scenarios.

format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
IF there no creator...there is no sign of life....
There is no reason to believe that this must be true.

format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
believe the in the Greatness of Allah...

Allah can Create a man without a father like Adam and Jesus...

if no God Watching us day and Night...world will turn upside down...
There is no reason to believe this is true.

format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
who lead the sun and moon....?
why do earth orbit and move around?

is all Allah taking care of it........
You might believe that Allah is leading the sun and the moon and that Allah is controlling the earth. However, we now have satisfactory explanations which do not invoke the necessity of a supernatural designer and controller.

format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
Tell me can you compare your meager thoughts and ideas which can’t even be seen, ideas and thought which you can not even create or generate on your own had God not given you a brain with the Wisdom that Created and Perfected the Universe?
You haven't even demonstrated that God exists much less gave all of us a brain. To answer question would be to accept your premise, which as per the definition of an Atheist - he would not.

format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
God has created this Universe and all that is encompassed in it as you create your own ideas in your own mind.
This is of course, your belief - but you have not demonstrated it in anyway to convince anyone.

format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
And your mind is only yours because God has bestow it upon you. And be not ungrateful by trying to use your mind to deny His Existence.
Belief is not a choice, and nor is it also vindictive by nature. I might be an Atheist, but I am not an Atheist because of a 'hatred of belief', 'arrogance', 'ungratefulness' or 'denial' or for any other rhetoric that some theists like to pretend I am, but I am an Atheist because I contest the existence of a God. I am a Soft Atheist in that I do not declare that there is no God but I simply disbelieve in the assertion that there is a God. As stated, my disbelief in the God proposition rests with skepticism and lack of evidence and/or reason under my world view to suppose a God. I cannot at all 'change' my belief because I would have to be sincerely convinced of its falsehood and/or the validity of another belief to do so.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i cannot imagine what it would be like to be an athiest!!!
If it makes you feel any better, the feeling is probably mutual.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i mean its far beyond my imagination, life must SUCK for you guys!
Not at all. Why would you imagine such?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i mean no offence to any of the athiest brothers and sisters,
but how can you not believe in GOD???
Because I see no evidence which implies or gives credence to the statement that God exists.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
what would be the purpose of creation?
What sort of creation are you talking about?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
how can this perfect creation of the one and only Creator be an accident?????
What makes you assume that the only possible two options that could be is either a 'creator' (such as Allah) or an accident? I for one do not believe that there is a God, but also do not agree that everything was an accident.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i mean do you guys not look around you, at nature at the planet itself and everything in it and around it and think HOW CAN THIS BE AN ACCIDENT? or a big bang or whatever it is!
No. But then that is probably because I do not contend that the Earth formed by accident. You will find that most atheists do not contend that the origins of the earth are due to chance.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i dont really understand the evolution process i know it may sound dumb but if we evolved from apes or whatever they believe we evolved from then why are the apes still apes? why do we give birth of humans by us women bearing them in our womb?
First of all, evolution has nothing to do with Atheism. Evolution is an explanation for the diversity of life that we now see here on earth. It has nothing to do with the existence of God whatsoever.

Secondly, the reason we still see apes is that we didn't actually evolve from apes - we happen to share a common ancestor with apes that we evolved from. The reason also, that we see apes around is that an entire species does not necessarily evolve collectively.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
why doesnt the other apes just evolve into humans why has that stopped???
Because evolution is not a guided process. There is no planned tree where a specific species will inevitably at some point evolve into another species. Species evolve through natural selection. Animals that have beneficial mutations have a better chance of survival and a better chance of passing their genes to their offspring.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i'm really surprised in a way that athiests still carry on with life, ( yet again that is the mercy of God that He bestows upon them yet they are in denial about His existance) no offence but if i was an athiest (God forbid) i'd committed suicide a very long time ago!!!!!!!
Then, I suppose - it is a very good thing that you are not an atheist since you are implying that you are incapable of survival without the presumption of a supernatural arbiter promising eternal bliss. Fortunately, the majority of atheists are either stronger minded than you or see no reason to believe that existence is meaningless sans the existence of a God.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
for me knowing that there is a God up there is enough to carry on with life... and this is just acknowledging His existance, im not even talking about His favours and attritbutes and bounties and mercy.

cos the latter makes me wanna smile and live life more just to please Him and see what He has in store for me.
That is good for you.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
why promise paradise to a wrongdoer when all the righteous have been striving hard all their lives to seek paradise?
Your sentence here assumes that only Muslims are capable of being righteous human beings. This is demonstrably false as we see acts of virtue from everyone irrespective of their cultural background or religious adherence. A more potent question I would ask would be that: Is a Non-Muslim deserving of eternal torture?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
if there is no hereafter then whats the use of this silly world and short life????????
if paradise and hell didnt exist it would only make sense to me if we were imortals.
Who says that there must be an objective purpose? We make and decide our own purposes in our lives. Life arguably has much more meaning in a finite existence rather than an infinite existence because your time is a blessing. Your time can run out and you have more of a motivation to make something of your existence.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
accidents are never perfect, in fact the word accident is usually referred to disasters.
so how forget the major things like the universe and our own planet earth function so perfectly but lets start with ourselves... how can we as humans as in the way we are created be so perfect???
The universe does not function perfectly. Earth does not function perfectly and we are not perfect, nor we were 'created' or 'formed' perfectly. Why did you imagine otherwise? How do you even define 'perfect'? Do you define it as satisfactory to human purposes or some other criteria for perfection?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
as an athiest does that not even make you think?
As it is about the 512th time I have come across that question, it only makes me respond. I don't know why I don't just make a copy of answer to these questions and put it in wordpad for future reference.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
he said if there was a God then why would this God torture so many innocent children and keep them in poverty, why is there killing and bloodshed?
He's not wrong. If you proclaim God to be an omniscient and benevolent being then it is a very potent question.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
and i just thought mannnnnnnnnn... why dont you do me a favour and read the message of God the Qur'an and maybe if Allah swt has mercy on you to open your eyes then you will get the answers to all your questions and you will understand.
That's not an answer. This is an avoidance of the question. Obviously the atheist convert in question did read the Qu'ran and did not find the answer to his questions in it.

format_quote Originally Posted by al Amaanah
how is that possible? everything is created perfect. the moon, the sun etc. everything is in place, if u look at the human body only. who gave u ur seight? ur hearing? who can make ur heart stop?
The human body is not perfect. And why must someone have to have given us our sight?

format_quote Originally Posted by Abu Sayyad
Like it is said, there are no atheists on a sinking ship.

{They recognize the favor of Allah ; then they deny it. And most of them are disbelievers.}[an-Nahl; 83]
Of course, you wouldn't know this. Years ago I got hit by a car and I had severe injuries. The question of God never came into it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
you cannot simply be an athiest out cos you lack knowledge about religions and cannot be asked to read about it and look into it therefore opt for the easy option of not believing in God whatsoever.
What exactly makes you presume that Atheism is an 'easy option'?
Reply

Uthman
07-21-2008, 09:14 PM
IMHO, attempting to prove Allah's existence using logic is a futile exercise. There is no absolute proof of his existence, and any evidence that might point towards his existence is inconclusive. I believe in Allah and I believe that he has guided me towards the truth. Please correct me if I have said anything wrong.
Reply

Skavau
07-21-2008, 09:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by north_malaysian
let say an atheist is on vacation in Phuket, he's sunbathing on the beach and suddenly a powerful tsunami comes and push him and he has nothing to grab and no body would ever help him....

what would an atheist be thinking during that time?
"AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!???????"

There are better times to contemplate the existence of God.

format_quote Originally Posted by MunirAhmedKamil
If you dont mind me asking...in space..our earth hardly gets hit with meteors..where as the moon, which is very closely positioned to us is full of craters. Dont you think its not just by pure luck earth is somehow protected for a very long time? Mars is full of craters too.
No-one claims it is by pure luck.

There are scientific reasons as to why Earth is protected. There is nothing special or amazing about it because if Earth was not protected, then we would have hardly any life (if any at all). So it goes hand in hand with life.

format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
I notice that you like to compare yourself and the material items which you perceive in life with God. That is the first mistake. Just for a mere second you have to step back and comprehend the notion that you can’t compare yourself and that which is created by the Creator.
You argument is full of logical holes. First of all, you premise that everything requires a creator is nullified by your refusal to extend this premise to God. You are simply assuming that God is beyond the rules of logic and therefore is not applicable to your own conclusions on everything else. What exactly am I suppose to find convincing about this? I have no reason to suspend my knowledge of everything to appease what you consider God. You must provide logical reasoning for it, from my perspective.

format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
You don’t want to acknowledge the fact that you have being created by God, while you want to believe that god was created?
No, that's not his argument. He said that if the universe, world and earth ultimately must require a creator (as per your logic) then logically this must extend to the creator.

format_quote Originally Posted by TrueStranger
My friend we could go in circles, belief doesn’t come from the mind it comes from the heart. I could entertain a thought, and ask millions of questions which all start with how and why, but in reality those questions are more likely to deceive you than to guide you.
This makes no sense.

'Belief comes from the heart' is utterly meaningless to me. Can you please explain it?

format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
Rejecting faith some their mentality quite extreme...! cause deny God does not exist...! God is a watcher all over the universe...the earth,planets,heaven,and Hell....!why Alien Exist...other than Human cause Creation of the earth and heaven...a Creator.!
What?
Reply

Tornado
07-26-2008, 07:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SundriedAtheist
Liar. Atheism is more fulfilling, life affirming and beautiful than any religion could ever be. Isnt the wonder and awe of this world world not insipring and uplifting enough for you.
Consider that a transition (surprisingly short) really to find out what life really means and now I have my answers. Now I would agree with that in my case.
Reply

Eeman
07-26-2008, 09:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by SundriedAtheist
Thank you for your honesty Tornado. I am sorry i was a bit harsh in my response.

Anyway, consider this. There are billions of human being just like you who share this planet earth with you. You are among the "lucky" few who are not inflicted by the virus of faith. You are not predisposed to the gene that causes people to have faith in an utterly irrational and superstitious thing called god. you do not explain away the deep questions by invoking illogical concepts. You are probing, inquisitive open to ideas. This makes you an intellectually honest person. How many other people can boast of these qualities. Being an atheist, you are so special already, now how much more can you ask for. Does it matter if whether or not you find out how the Universe came into being, as long as you keep investigating and do not settle for anything less than a satisfying and reasonable answer.

Atheism may come naturally to us. We may think it is the only logical position to take, but look at the deluded world around you. People believe in the most insane and inane things with such conviction! We are not talking about one or two persons here. Pepole in the millions and billions believe in utter nonsense. This shows that faith in itself is a virus they have no control over. It eats into them and there seems to be no escape from it for them. Are you not lucky to not belong to that group, when the odds were stacked against you(assuming you were brought up in a thiestic family). You have so much going for you, why spoil it all by being pessimistic.

Take inspiration from this video. This is especially for you brother. Enjoy.

http://rapidshare.com/files/12709164...ins_.part1.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/12710561...ins_.part2.rar

http://rapidshare.com/files/12711909...ins_.part3.rar


This is worth the download. You can find poor quality uploads in YOUTUBE. Search for it using keywords "The purpose of life".

The human race is one of the wonders of the universe. We may be unique. But why are we here? What is the purpose of life? To professor Clinton Richard Dawkins science can tell us why are we here, tell us the purpose of human existence.

There are some ten million species on Earth. But before Charles Darwin no one knew how animals came to be so varied, so complex.

For centuries people try to understand why animals was so perfectly equipped for their tasks. They assumed there was only one explanation: Natural world was designed. The designer was God. Reverend William Paley, writing half a century before Darwin, put the case with his famous watchmaker argument.

If there is no designer how did the complexity and variety of life come about?

Learn the secrets of life with Richard Dawkins.
salam (peace)

faith is not a virus but on the contrary a salvation, people that see and consider faith to be a virus especially true faith i personally would love to see the look on their faces when the hour strikes.

how can people be so ungrateful and blind and head towards their own eternal doom so happily and willingly it disturbs me, then again its all Allah swt wills and only He knows best.

if science could tell us everything about what is the purpose of life and why we are here then why is it that to this day it has not been able to tell us EVERY SINGLE THING??? and i guess thats cos mankind has not progressed to that extent yet, well its quite a shame really cos if it took so many years for evolution and there are SO many things that science still cannot explain and never will unless Allah swt wills, then all athiests are really gonna be left in the dark anyhow cos i honestly doubt that the scientists will come to a stage where they will be able to explain and reason every single thing that there is in existance before as they predict that global warming takes full affect and the ice caps melt and there is nothing left of this planet. so really and truly just like you are lost now you will be forever lost unless Allah swt has mercy on your soul and guides you to true faith which i personally pray that He does for your own salvation Insha'Allah.
Reply

Skavau
07-26-2008, 02:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
faith is not a virus but on the contrary a salvation, people that see and consider faith to be a virus especially true faith i personally would love to see the look on their faces when the hour strikes.
Faith is simply the belief in a specific proposition without evidence. Expanded, it could be argued that it is also the desire for that specific proposition to be true. "True faith" (whatever that is in) is simply someone who has placed their belief in something without evidence correctly. In the bigger picture however, it is difficult to conceive of something so fundamentally irrational.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
true faith i personally would love to see the look on their faces when the hour strikes.
Why? For what end? Are you looking for self-satisfaction in being proved 'right' by future events? Only someone who values revenge or sadism could look upon a future event with such glee and enthusiasm. It is even worse seeing as I suspect the event you are referring to is none other than the day of judgment, where millions and millions of people will be destroyed and tortured purely for disbelief or 'disobedience' towards God. Most people would look upon the prospect of such a day of carnage with fear and contempt yet you give the impression that the destruction of everything is in fact the most treasured day possible.

I do honestly wonder where you seem to think 'morality' here fits in with your world-view here.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
how can people be so ungrateful and blind and head towards their own eternal doom so happily and willingly it disturbs me, then again its all Allah swt wills and only He knows best.
I'll give you a clue: We don't. I don't believe Allah exists. I don't believe Islam is true and consequently, no 'eternal torture' under my world view - exists for me. It is not about 'ungratefulness' or 'disobedience' it is about honesty and sincerity in your own convictions.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
if science could tell us everything about what is the purpose of life and why we are here then why is it that to this day it has not been able to tell us EVERY SINGLE THING???
Because science is a progressive field of research that may forever be ever-changing and ever-revising. Science doesn't pretend to have the answers to the universe and existence, but with a track record focused on discovery what is actually true and basing its findings on observation and experimentation with empirical evidence - it is, and remains the most efficient field of research ever. The onset of scientific discovery revolutionised our lifestyles and our knowledge of the universe. Every single religion ever, to survive has had to adapt to newly understand information.

You may claim otherwise, but it is true.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
and i guess thats cos mankind has not progressed to that extent yet, well its quite a shame really
"Not progressed to that extent yet"

What are you asking for? What extent would be satisfactory? Compare 150 years ago to now and then complain about the lack of scientific accomplishment.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eemaan
cos if it took so many years for evolution and there are SO many things that science still cannot explain and never will unless Allah swt wills
This doesn't make any sense. What does the average time for speciation (I assume you're referring to) in evolution have to do with scientific discovery?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
then all athiests are really gonna be left in the dark anyhow cos i honestly doubt that the scientists will come to a stage where they will be able to explain and reason every single thing that there is in existance before
Possibly, possibly not.

Either way, it neither invalidates future research nor nullifies what we already know.
Reply

Eeman
07-26-2008, 03:22 PM
my point of the matter is, that you athiests sit there and tell us that having faith is something that is irational, and your are being nothng but sincere and honest about your own convictions fine fair enough....

how is having faith irational??? would you please pin point that out for me.

i would understand if science has reached the level where as to it explains each and every aspect of life and this world, furthermore the universe and everything in creation then you would have solid proof and sound argument to sit here and argue why this perfect creation that exists does not have a creator how can it be so perfect???
accidents are things that are referred to as disasters so HOW can all this be an accident????

furthermore as my knowledge goes big bang is a theory there is no 100% solid evidence for this to be true so being an athiest and believing in such useless deviating theories is the most irrational thing i have come across.

by my comment about the look on the disbelievers faces when the hour strikes i was not saying out of glee or anything like that, i just find it quite sad and depressing how people can argue against the existance of the Almighty Lord and sit there say they are doing it out of sincerity and honesty! assumption is the mother of all mess ups so for future reference please brother never again assume such things, cos i'll tell you exactly how wrong you are, after every prayer that i make and every dua that i read i make supplication not only for Allah swt to guide and have mercy upon our ummah but the whole of mankind, so i know it wouldnt make any difference to a person like you since you refuse to believe the whole existance of God but if ever you go through hard times, rememember that somewhere out there in this world is a young muslim sister that always prays fo you. :o)
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Skavau
07-26-2008, 03:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
my point of the matter is, that you athiests sit there and tell us that having faith is something that is irational, and your are being nothng but sincere and honest about your own convictions fine fair enough....
Okay.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
how is having faith irational??? would you please pin point that out for me.
By its very nature. It is belief without evidence.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i would understand if science has reached the level where as to it explains each and every aspect of life and this world, furthermore the universe and everything in creation then you would have solid proof and sound argument to sit here and argue why this perfect creation that exists does not have a creator how can it be so perfect???
There is no reason to believe the universe is perfect.

There is also no reason to believe the universe is a 'creation'.

You already assume that a "perfect creation" exists. There is no reason to.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
accidents are things that are referred to as disasters so HOW can all this be an accident????
Now, I never said everything was an accident - did I? You appear to been informed or have stumbled across common theistic stereotypes of what atheists believe.

Natural law is not 'random' or an accident.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
furthermore as my knowledge goes big bang is a theory there is no 100% solid evidence for this to be true so being an athiest and believing in such useless deviating theories is the most irrational thing i have come across.
And so much how much independent research have you done about the Big Bang Theory, precisely?

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
by my comment about the look on the disbelievers faces when the hour strikes i was not saying out of glee or anything like that, i just find it quite sad and depressing how people can argue against the existance of the Almighty Lord and sit there say they are doing it out of sincerity and honesty!
First of all, I don't argue against the existence of God - I argue that there is no evidence of God and defend the atheistic position. If you look, throughout this thread and other threads - almost all atheists have been on the defensive. It is Muslims on here that are making the attacks and criticisms.

Secondly, my convictions and beliefs are based on sincerity and honesty.
Reply

Eeman
07-26-2008, 04:03 PM
i was not refering ot you debating on this forum, this is a debate but i was more refering to your ownself and what goes on inside, your heart and head, for your own salvation.

brother you say that your convictions and beliefs are based on sincerity and honesty, these are things and many more that are what the Quran teaches us, and that we believe are the words of God, so all in all every teaching of the Quran if you seriously sit there read it and ponder on its meanings you'll understand is about equality, love peace and harmony, i mean in itself is that not what every sngle soul should be struggling and striving so hard to achieve as a character in oneself? or do we read and understand and also agree with the meanings and what it is encouraging us but since it is a bit hard and takes a lot of patience and time to achieve we turn around say oh you know what this is all doo lally and some mad person came out with this and all the mad people follow it?
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Skavau
07-26-2008, 04:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
i was not refering ot you debating on this forum, this is a debate but i was more refering to your ownself and what goes on inside, your heart and head, for your own salvation.
And you don't know what goes on inside my heart and head. So your assumption that I inherently argue against the existence of God is false.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
brother you say that your convictions and beliefs are based on sincerity and honesty, these are things and many more that are what the Quran teaches us, and that we believe are the words of God, so all in all every teaching of the Quran if you seriously sit there read it and ponder on its meanings you'll understand is about equality, love peace and harmony, i mean in itself is that not what every sngle soul should be struggling and striving so hard to achieve as a character in oneself?
I do not see your point. I meant I was sincere and honest in that I don't believe in Islam and I don't believe in God. Those are sincere disbeliefs. All of the other virtues you just mentioned in the above paragraph can be found and understood outside of Islam.
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Pygoscelis
07-26-2008, 04:36 PM
Oddly enough the research on apostacy (with christian subjects) shows that more often than not apostates who had been highly religious were led away from their religion precisely BECAUSE of the importance their religion placed on the "one truth". They had it instilled in them that the truth is important and they must not decieve, so they started to aknowledge their internal doubts and had to face realities about their faith being what faith is - belief because they were told to or wanted to believe. Over time they came to aknowledge that this is irrational and they turned apostate. It is a very common story amongst those who turn away from highly religious mindsets.
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Eeman
07-26-2008, 04:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
And you don't know what goes on inside my heart and head. So your assumption that I inherently argue against the existence of God is false.


I do not see your point. I meant I was sincere and honest in that I don't believe in Islam and I don't believe in God. Those are sincere disbeliefs. All of the other virtues you just mentioned in the above paragraph can be found and understood outside of Islam.
was you born an athiest or was there ever a religion that you believed in?
so your telling me that never even once for a single split second in your life never not doubted the existance of God?
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Uthman
07-26-2008, 05:10 PM
There is evidence for the existence of God. Whether or not atheists find this evidence convincing enough is a different matter.
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Duncan Ferguson
07-26-2008, 07:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
There is evidence for the existence of God. Whether or not atheists find this evidence convincing enough is a different matter.
Evidence should be convincing or it is hardly evidence at all.
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Uthman
07-26-2008, 08:09 PM
Hi Duncan Ferguson,

format_quote Originally Posted by Duncan Ferguson
Evidence should be convincing or it is hardly evidence at all.
Whether or not evidence is convincing is dependent on the individual. Furthermore, even if somebody does not find a particular piece of evidence convincing, that doesn't negate the fact that it is still evidence in that it can be used to support a belief. Would you agree with that?
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Skavau
07-26-2008, 09:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
was you born an athiest or was there ever a religion that you believed in?
I have always been an atheist.

format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
so your telling me that never even once for a single split second in your life never not doubted the existance of God?
Correct.

format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
There is evidence for the existence of God. Whether or not atheists find this evidence convincing enough is a different matter.
Then there actually isn't any evidence, since evidence has to be approachable and identifiable to all. If, to accept 'evidence' regarding the existence of God - you must believe in God first - then it isn't and never was evidence for God.
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Uthman
07-26-2008, 10:08 PM
Hi Skavau,

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
There is evidence for the existence of God. Whether or not atheists find this evidence convincing enough is a different matter.
Then there actually isn't any evidence, since evidence has to be approachable and identifiable to all.
I would argue that evidence pointing towards the existence of God is approachable and identifiable to everybody. However, some do not consider the evidence strong enough to warrant belief in God. That doesn't mean that it isn't evidence.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
If, to accept 'evidence' regarding the existence of God - you must believe in God first - then it isn't and never was evidence for God.
Agreed.
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Eeman
07-27-2008, 01:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I have always been an atheist.


Correct.
:skeleton: man that is something in it self that one should ponder about.
in all honesty no offence to any athiest brothers or sisters but i feel quite sad for you guys, cos life in itself has no deeper meaning then us being here for no purpose and as a form of an accident, if i was a athiest that would make me think in itself.
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suffiyan007
07-27-2008, 02:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
:skeleton: man that is something in it self that one should ponder about.
in all honesty no offence to any athiest brothers or sisters but i feel quite sad for you guys, cos life in itself has no deeper meaning then us being here for no purpose and as a form of an accident, if i was a athiest that would make me think in itself.

Yes...u r right...but some pagan always felt there no God existence..!
The miracle of Allah,it shown in front of us no one realize..!
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Skavau
07-27-2008, 04:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I would argue that evidence pointing towards the existence of God is approachable and identifiable to everybody. However, some do not consider the evidence strong enough to warrant belief in God. That doesn't mean that it isn't evidence.
Where as others like me, believe that specific claims about evidence of God do not actually constitute evidence at all.
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Skavau
07-27-2008, 04:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Eeman
:skeleton: man that is something in it self that one should ponder about.
in all honesty no offence to any athiest brothers or sisters but i feel quite sad for you guys, cos life in itself has no deeper meaning then us being here for no purpose and as a form of an accident, if i was a athiest that would make me think in itself.
Again, Eeman - apparently you have not been reading my replies.

I have already informed you that I do not believe life, or my life is an accident and purposeless.
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Skavau
07-27-2008, 04:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Suffiyan007
Yes...u r right...but some pagan always felt there no God existence..!
The miracle of Allah,it shown in front of us no one realize..!
I am not a pagan.
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suffiyan007
07-27-2008, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
I am not a pagan.
sorry
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Uthman
07-28-2008, 04:27 PM
We are driving Tornado's thread off-topic. Perhaps this discussion should continue elsewhere, while we return to what Tornado wanted to discuss originally.
Reply

Tornado
07-28-2008, 07:46 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
We are driving Tornado's thread off-topic. Perhaps this discussion should continue elsewhere, while we return to what Tornado wanted to discuss originally.
I think I'm o.k. now. My view of the world and meaning of life is much different now than compared to when I was religious now that I've had a chance to think about it. Carl Sagan probably had the most effect on how I view the universe and also people now. Also, for atheists, the meaning of life is the meaning that they want to give to it.
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SixTen
07-28-2008, 09:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
I think I'm o.k. now. My view of the world and meaning of life is much different now than compared to when I was religious now that I've had a chance to think about it. Carl Sagan probably had the most effect on how I view the universe and also people now. Also, for atheists, the meaning of life is the meaning that they want to give to it.
Hmm, well, people would prefer the meaning of life not to have devils or hell and so fourth - but yet they accept it. Maybe thats something to think about.

In a way, you may feel - that you are on the path to heaven -but religiously - you are always in fear of hell.

Not exactly, the bright cup of coffee in the morning is it - In terms of putting meaning to a life which you want - yet make yourself live in fear for the rest of your life.

As for Sagan, personally - he put too much belief in that their exists many planets with life - even though their is no evidence for even 1 with it, ofcourse this doesn't mean it for sure doesn't - but his relying on the drakers equation is well, optimistic.
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czgibson
07-29-2008, 05:47 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by SixTen
Not exactly, the bright cup of coffee in the morning is it - In terms of putting meaning to a life which you want - yet make yourself live in fear for the rest of your life.
There's no reason why being released from belief in god shouldn't be a liberating and empowering thing. It's not often you find an atheist writing about how meaningless their life is without god, is it?

Also, religious faith often involves the fear of god, so I'm not really sure what point you're making here.

Peace
Reply

barney
07-29-2008, 10:42 PM
Just thought i'd add my bit from an agnostic veiwpoint.

As an atheist or agnostic, you are free from hell. You are free to choose how to live your life, free to think, free to travel, free to dress, free to eat, free to drink, free from dogma, free to progress and to better yourself and the world, free from doubts.

You can veiw all humanity as equals, know your decisions are your own, live life in wonder of the world and its beauty, take steps to change that which is ugly.

Atheism is a very spiritual feeling. Casting off chains and letting your mind open to its full potential.
Being agnostic or atheist is great.
What use Tornado is having the comfort that you will see your kids in heaven....when its bllatently obvious to an atheist that heaven isnt actually there? What use is turning to a freind in the sky when you are actually just turnuing to chance and eschewing control to others, including non-existant others.

Sheesh! Become a theist already! Theres plenty of sand to stick yer loaf into and you have fine fingers to plug your ears. Theism is easy, but just cos somethings easy, dosnt mean its for the best!
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Whatsthepoint
07-29-2008, 11:03 PM
Welcome back, Barney!
Reply

barney
07-29-2008, 11:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Welcome back, Barney!
Sorta just popping in really :)
I posted a question i needed a islamic perspective on, IE is Allah a freind or a lord or a protector or a guide, first and foremost.

Just waiting for it to be approved.

Hiya to you though :)
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-30-2008, 09:20 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,

Also, religious faith often involves the fear of god, so I'm not really sure what point you're making here.

Peace
honestly if a man doesnt fear God he fears everything else, he fears poverty/hunger/misfortune/pain/death etc etc etc !



Barney its not about how free you are, its about having the correct idea of life. heh.. cliche but the truth shall set you free :p
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barney
07-30-2008, 03:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
honestly if a man doesnt fear God he fears everything else, he fears poverty/hunger/misfortune/pain/death etc etc etc !



Barney its not about how free you are, its about having the correct idea of life. heh.. cliche but the truth shall set you free :p
I agree with that wholeheartedly. The revese is equally true, that falsehood shall enslave.

Urrgh!I used the word falsehood! Who does that these days!:D
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IbnAbdulHakim
07-30-2008, 03:37 PM
^ what happened to that thread of yours lol?
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barney
07-31-2008, 12:40 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ what happened to that thread of yours lol?

I dunno!

i think its stuck in the mods in-tray :)
Reply

coddles76
07-31-2008, 12:59 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Tornado
Here is the lowdown on being an atheist (my opinion).

There is nothing universally common between us atheists except for this bit: a lack of belief in a god. We may share some opinions but it doesn't bind us. For example, if we look at abortion: I may be pro-life while another atheist may be pro-choice.

Imagine someone very close to you passes away, you realize, there is no one really turn to so you can only end up sulking, knowing you will never see them again. It can be very lonely being an atheist. There is virtually no hope and knowing that know one is really behind you to get through the bad times.

Here's a bummer:No afterlife. Imagine this, because we think there is no god, that means that we will never see the people we truly love, our family and friends. When we die, that's it. Again, it's very sad and depressing.

There is no special meaning to life except to have kids. We are on a lonely planet along with the seven planets in our solar system that revolve around our sun, just one star among the 200+ billion stars in just our galaxy, just one galaxy amongst hundreds of billions of galaxies in our visible universe.

How about all the creation everywhere, the lush trees, the vast oceans, beautiful skies, etc. As irrational as it sounds, atheists (like myself) would say that none of this actually needed creator.

So if anyone is unsure whether to convert or not to atheism, consider that things become lonelier.

If you have any questions about being an atheist, just ask.
No matter how impressive and attractive the atheist, materialist schools of thought may be, and no matter how many ideas and theories there may be, individuals and societies can never do without the true religion, they can never answer the needs of body and soul. The further the individual sinks into those ways, the more certain it becomes that he cannot find security or quench his thirst, and that there is no way out except through the true religion.
Ernest Renan says: “It is possible that everything we love could disappear and that rational thinking, science and industry could cease to exist, but it is impossible that religion could be eliminated. Rather it will remain as proof that materialistic thought which wants to restrict man to the narrow path of the base life of this world is false.”

If man is far away from his Lord, then according to his level of knowledge and understanding he will realize the extent of his ignorance of his Lord and His attributes, and his ignorance of his own self and what is good for him or bad for him, what leads to bliss and what leads to doom, and his ignorance of such basic matters as astronomy, mathematics and the like. At this point the wise man will move from the state of arrogance and pride to humility and submission, and will realize that behind all this knowledge is the All-Knowing, All-Wise, and that behind nature there is an almighty Creator. This truth compels the objective seeker to believe in the unseen and acknowledge the true religion, and to respond to the call of human nature and innate instinct. If a person fails to do that he is going against his innate nature and sinking to the level of the animals.
Thus we may conclude that following the true religion – that which is based on belief in Allaah alone (Tawheed) and worshipping Him in the way that He has prescribed – is an essential element of life if man is to be a true slave to the Lord of the Worlds, and to attain happiness and be free of tiredness and exhaustion in this world and in the Hereafter. It is essential in order to perfect man’s rational thinking. In this way alone can reason fulfil its desires; without it man cannot fulfil his higher ambitions.
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barney
07-31-2008, 01:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by coddles76
No matter how impressive and attractive the atheist, materialist schools of thought may be, and no matter how many ideas and theories there may be, individuals and societies can never do without the true religion, they can never answer the needs of body and soul. The further the individual sinks into those ways, the more certain it becomes that he cannot find security or quench his thirst, and that there is no way out except through the true religion.
Ernest Renan says: “It is possible that everything we love could disappear and that rational thinking, science and industry could cease to exist, but it is impossible that religion could be eliminated. Rather it will remain as proof that materialistic thought which wants to restrict man to the narrow path of the base life of this world is false.”

If man is far away from his Lord, then according to his level of knowledge and understanding he will realize the extent of his ignorance of his Lord and His attributes, and his ignorance of his own self and what is good for him or bad for him, what leads to bliss and what leads to doom, and his ignorance of such basic matters as astronomy, mathematics and the like. At this point the wise man will move from the state of arrogance and pride to humility and submission, and will realize that behind all this knowledge is the All-Knowing, All-Wise, and that behind nature there is an almighty Creator. This truth compels the objective seeker to believe in the unseen and acknowledge the true religion, and to respond to the call of human nature and innate instinct. If a person fails to do that he is going against his innate nature and sinking to the level of the animals.
Thus we may conclude that following the true religion – that which is based on belief in Allaah alone (Tawheed) and worshipping Him in the way that He has prescribed – is an essential element of life if man is to be a true slave to the Lord of the Worlds, and to attain happiness and be free of tiredness and exhaustion in this world and in the Hereafter. It is essential in order to perfect man’s rational thinking. In this way alone can reason fulfil its desires; without it man cannot fulfil his higher ambitions.
Hey, dont knock it till youve tried it!
I'd argue that faith forces you to suspend reality for the invisible and the magical and stunts higher ambitions.
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coddles76
07-31-2008, 01:27 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Hey, dont knock it till youve tried it!
I'd argue that faith forces you to suspend reality for the invisible and the magical and stunts higher ambitions.
I have tried it so you could say I'm speaking from experience
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barney
07-31-2008, 01:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by coddles76
I have tried it so you could say I'm speaking from experience

Ahh, Fair play then :)

It's not for everybody :|
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Woodrow
07-31-2008, 02:08 AM
It must take a tremendous amount of faith to be an atheist. Faith in the personal belief that there is no creator, faith in the belief that life is of no permanent value, faith in the belief that the only importance of life is the current social structure.

It seems that all of those things demand faith in them to be true, if one is to accept them.

Either there is a creator or life is the cruelest thing to happen to sapient beings.
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energy_22
07-31-2008, 03:07 AM
[QUOTE=Woodrow]
It must take a tremendous amount of faith to be an atheist.
[quote]

It doesnt take any faith.

For example I know the sun will rise tomorrow. Religious people cannt be sure.
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coddles76
07-31-2008, 03:24 AM
lololololol At Energy_22

No disrespect intended but Thats the funniest comment I've heard all year.
Thankyou for putting a smile on my face.
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Tornado
07-31-2008, 03:36 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow

Either there is a creator or life is the cruelest thing to happen to sapient beings.
I guess it depends on the situation. In my case, I'm luck so far that nothing bad has happened to me so far and I stand in awe at the astronomical luck that allowed me and not another to be born.
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barney
07-31-2008, 04:02 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
It must take a tremendous amount of faith to be an atheist. Faith in the personal belief that there is no creator, faith in the belief that life is of no permanent value, faith in the belief that the only importance of life is the current social structure.

It seems that all of those things demand faith in them to be true, if one is to accept them.

Either there is a creator or life is the cruelest thing to happen to sapient beings.
Not really Woody.
No-Creator of humankind is dealt with by evolution.
Life with no permenant value? You gotta be kidding! If I spend my life doing some good for others, It's had value to me , value to them, to their decendents and the world!
Current Social Structure? Nahh, way off mate. I think about tommorows social structure, my kids life and their kids. When I'm rotting in the ground, if i had working synapses, they would be happy to know id done some good for everyone whilst i was here. Thats the point of life.

None of the above demand faith. They simply work on logic and reason alone. Faith is making yourself beleive in something that you normally wouldnt.:D

Life is as cruel as we make it.

peace.

To Tornado. Whats stopping you going all theisticy then Torney? Is it you want to make the leap of faith and reason is stopping you?
Reply

Woodrow
07-31-2008, 05:51 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Not really Woody.
No-Creator of humankind is dealt with by evolution.
Yet an atheist has to believe that matter came ito existence spontaneously. I have yet to see one bit of empiracal evidence that matter can come into being from nothing. You can not have evolution without matter, What was the evolutinary process that caused matter to be?

Life with no permenant value? You gotta be kidding! If I spend my life doing some good for others, It's had value to me , value to them, to their decendents and the world!
I have no doubt you are an altruistic caring person and that you do derive joy by doing good. But, the reality is that without the existence of a god, the deeds of the best man have no more value then the deeds of the most evil man. Both will leave the exact same size hole in a bucket of water, if they poke their finger into it and remove it.

Current Social Structure? Nahh, way off mate. I think about tommorows social structure, my kids life and their kids. When I'm rotting in the ground, if i had working synapses, they would be happy to know id done some good for everyone whilst i was here. Thats the point of life.
Your intention may be to do good in this life, but it takes faith to believe you actually did. You will never know if the best thing you ever did, will not turn out to be detrimental to all you love sometime in the future. It is by faith you believe that your good deeds will result in lasting good.

None of the above demand faith. They simply work on logic and reason alone. Faith is making yourself beleive in something that you normally wouldnt.:D
Unless you have some quantifiable, qualifiable data to prove that is true, you are operating under the belief it is and that requires faith.

Life is as cruel as we make it.
agreed, that statement holds true for thiests, diests, atheists and agnostics.

peace.
and peace to you also. We may not agree, but it is good to kow that disagreement does not need to result in anger or lack of respect for each others views.
Reply

Trumble
07-31-2008, 06:12 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Either there is a creator or life is the cruelest thing to happen to sapient beings.
The "or" contains an unjustifiable (as far as I can see) implicit assumption of mutual exclusivity. Cruelty requires an agent to be cruel. In the case of "life" there is only one potential candidate, which is the principal reason I do not believe there is a God.

But, the reality is that without the existence of a god, the deeds of the best man have no more value then the deeds of the most evil man.
That may be your 'reality', but I am delighted that something so mind-numbingly depressing is not mine. Some deeds increase the suffering of your fellow sentients. Others reduce it. The latter is enough; more than enough. That is all the 'purpose' there is ever likely to be. Anything else is just wishful thinking.
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Skavau
07-31-2008, 09:06 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by coddles76
No matter how impressive and attractive the atheist, materialist schools of thought may be, and no matter how many ideas and theories there may be, individuals and societies can never do without the true religion, they can never answer the needs of body and soul.
As an individual, I am doing fine without the "true religion" (to which I assume you mean Islam). As a society, I believe that the country I am living is doing well enough without Islam and equally most Secular countries appear to be doing very well without Islam.

Concerning the needs of the body and soul? My needs of my body are satisfied by food and my soul's needs don't exist, because there is no reason to believe a soul actually exists.

format_quote Originally Posted by coddles76
Ernest Renan says: “It is possible that everything we love could disappear and that rational thinking, science and industry could cease to exist, but it is impossible that religion could be eliminated. Rather it will remain as proof that materialistic thought which wants to restrict man to the narrow path of the base life of this world is false.”
Clearly, Ernest Renan is talking nonsense.

'Materialist thought'? Does Ernest even understand what that means?

format_quote Originally Posted by coddels76
If man is far away from his Lord, then according to his level of knowledge and understanding he will realize the extent of his ignorance of his Lord and His attributes, and his ignorance of his own self and what is good for him or bad for him, what leads to bliss and what leads to doom, and his ignorance of such basic matters as astronomy, mathematics and the like. At this point the wise man will move from the state of arrogance and pride to humility and submission, and will realize that behind all this knowledge is the All-Knowing, All-Wise, and that behind nature there is an almighty Creator. This truth compels the objective seeker to believe in the unseen and acknowledge the true religion, and to respond to the call of human nature and innate instinct. If a person fails to do that he is going against his innate nature and sinking to the level of the animals.
This article is patronising rubbish.

Disbelief has nothing to do with arrogance or pride, but conviction. I honestly do not believe in the existence of God and I honestly do not believe in Islam. This is not a belief (or rather disbelief) that I have through arrogance, but through conviction. It is my honest belief. If I was to change I would simply be lying to myself and everyone around me. Would you rather I be dishonest and pretend to believe in Islam?
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Skavau
07-31-2008, 09:08 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
It must take a tremendous amount of faith to be an atheist.
Not really.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Faith in the personal belief that there is no creator
False.

I disbelieve in a creator (God). I do not actively believe there is no creator.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
, faith in the belief that life is of no permanent value
This is not 'faith'. but a standpoint for me based upon evidence. Life may have permanent value in emotional ways, but in reality - we know that people live and they die. So what faith is presented here?

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
, faith in the belief that the only importance of life is the current social structure.
That wouldn't be faith, that'd be conviction.

Moreover, it is not true for me.
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Skavau
07-31-2008, 09:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Yet an atheist has to believe that matter came ito existence spontaneously. I have yet to see one bit of empiracal evidence that matter can come into being from nothing.
False.

No Atheist necessarily has to believe this.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
You can not have evolution without matter, What was the evolutinary process that caused matter to be?
Evolution is a theory which explains the diversity of life that we see here today on earth. It has nothing to do with the origins of the universe, formation of life or anything else.

Please, I ask you to scan the basics of the theory before asking questions about it like this.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I have no doubt you are an altruistic caring person and that you do derive joy by doing good. But, the reality is that without the existence of a god, the deeds of the best man have no more value then the deeds of the most evil man.
Why do you say that? What are you basing that on and why do the deeds of a good person automatically have more value if God exists and Islam is true?
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Uthman
07-31-2008, 10:49 AM
Hi barney,
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Faith is making yourself beleive in something that you normally wouldnt.:D
According to Islam, it is normal for someone to believe in one God and submit to him. The concept is known as Fitrah.

Linkage

Regards
Reply

Uthman
07-31-2008, 10:52 AM
Hi Skavau,
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
and my soul's needs don't exist, because there is no reason to believe a soul actually exists.
I don't think that's a logical statement to make. Just because there is no reason to believe that a soul exists doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist.

Regards
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
07-31-2008, 11:03 AM
well well, the same argument of "Gods too cruel" comes out


format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
The "or" contains an unjustifiable (as far as I can see) implicit assumption of mutual exclusivity. Cruelty requires an agent to be cruel. In the case of "life" there is only one potential candidate, which is the principal reason I do not believe there is a God.

well then, allow me explain what you already heard yet refuse

strange, thats one of the greatest reasons we believe there is a God. and of course with God comes the belief of the Day of Judgement.


Intercession has a time and place, just because God isnt saving the orphans and raped victims in the instance they are oppressed doesnt mean he wont deal out justice on the day of judgement. In order to justify a sentence the crime is to be carried out.

it seems the topmost reason for people disbelieving in our modern world is a lack of harmony and peace yet people dont realise they contribute greatly to that exact lack of harmony and peace by refusing to obey the laws of God !!
Reply

Woodrow
07-31-2008, 11:13 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
False.

No Atheist necessarily has to believe this.
But, if they do not believe that matter formed spontaneously, would that not mean it was created and such a person would believe in a creator, elimenating them from being an atheist?


Evolution is a theory which explains the diversity of life that we see here today on earth. It has nothing to do with the origins of the universe, formation of life or anything else.
I agree with that. Does there not have to be a universe for evolution to even be a posibility? Therefore the origin of the universe plays a very integral role for there to even be a theory of evolution.

Please, I ask you to scan the basics of the theory before asking questions about it like this.
Actually having somewhat of a medical background and more than a few university level biology courses, I am somewhat familiar with several theories of evolution, but on a personal level I lean towards the concept of Intelligent Design. I do have a somewat working knowledge of Darwinism and even agree with much of his findings, It is not evolution I have a problem with and I do know that most current theories of evolution deal only with the development of life and not with the creation of matter. But, I can not understand how it can be said evolution supports atheism, when it does not explain how evlion can occur without having the formation of matter as a starting point. It is like explaining that trafic lights cause cars to stop and go, without explaining the legal implications of traffic laws.


Why do you say that? What are you basing that on and why do the deeds of a good person automatically have more value if God exists and Islam is true?
The deeds themself have no more nor no less value. However, the existence of God(swt) gives permenace to the deeds and helps establish standards for the deeds to be of absolute value and indepenent of culture. In a non-go universe, the concept of good or bad deeds will tend to be based upon the thoughts and desires of society
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Azy
07-31-2008, 06:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
But, if they do not believe that matter formed spontaneously, would that not mean it was created and such a person would believe in a creator, elimenating them from being an atheist?
Perhaps an advanced civilisation created our universe, then we would have a creator who was not God.

On another note, to the best of our understanding the origin of the universe and all matter within it is also the beginning of space-time, events and such do not make any sense outside the universe, or before the universe (if that can even mean anything in a state where time does not exist).
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
You can not have evolution without matter, What was the evolutinary process that caused matter to be?
--
Does there not have to be a universe for evolution to even be a posibility? Therefore the origin of the universe plays a very integral role for there to even be a theory of evolution.
There has to be a universe for almost anything we know to make sense, why burden Evolution with this problem?
You might as well say:
Ohm's law for electrical circuits requires a universe and matter, so what was the electrical process that caused matter to be?
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I can not understand how it can be said evolution supports atheism, when it does not explain how evlion can occur without having the formation of matter as a starting point. It is like explaining that trafic lights cause cars to stop and go, without explaining the legal implications of traffic laws.
You seem to be of the opinion that Atheism (with a capital 'a') is some kind of organised, all encompassing theory of the universe and everything. It is not, atheism is simply the lack of a god belief. It is not even a definite 'God does not exist' belief (though there are some atheists out there that think that), so faith does not come into it at all.

More to the point it does not explain anything. Atheists can go around thinking the universe was created last week by pink aliens in floral skirts, but that has nothing to do with their atheism, since it is solely concerned with their lack of a god belief. To say "atheism does not explain how evolution can occur" then is pointless, just as it is to say "atheists believe in evolution" because while this may be true in a great number of cases it again is simply a matter of their personal opinion.
On top of that Evolution is not mutually exclusive with God, merely with certain religious doctrines, such as young-Earth creationism or the literal genesis of Adam and Eve from clay.
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Skavau
07-31-2008, 09:29 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Osman
I don't think that's a logical statement to make. Just because there is no reason to believe that a soul exists doesn't necessarily mean that it doesn't exist.
Absolutely.

But that wasn't my argument. My argument was that it is impossible for someone like me, who disbelieves in 'souls' (on the grounds of no evidence) to consider any hypothetical needs of 'souls'.

It is the equivalent of me asking you to consider the need of your thetans. It makes no sense to you.
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Skavau
07-31-2008, 09:34 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
But, if they do not believe that matter formed spontaneously, would that not mean it was created and such a person would believe in a creator, elimenating them from being an atheist?
No.

False dichotomy.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I agree with that. Does there not have to be a universe for evolution to even be a posibility?
Yes there does.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Therefore the origin of the universe plays a very integral role for there to even be a theory of evolution.
Going by this logic, the origin of the universe plays an integral role for there to be a theory, belief or hypothesis on everything. The existence of the universe is established. The origins of the universe whatever they may or may not be is completely irrelevant to our understanding on evolution. Evolution explains the diversity of life that we see here today on earth.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Actually having somewhat of a medical background and more than a few university level biology courses, I am somewhat familiar with several theories of evolution, but on a personal level I lean towards the concept of Intelligent Design.
Intelligent Design, contrary to popular opinion is not an opposite or an alternative to evolution. It has nothing to do with it.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
I do have a somewat working knowledge of Darwinism and even agree with much of his findings, It is not evolution I have a problem with and I do know that most current theories of evolution deal only with the development of life and not with the creation of matter.
Call me pedantic, but there is no such thing as 'Darwinism' anymore than there is such a thing as 'Einsteinism' or 'Newtonianism'.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
But, I can not understand how it can be said evolution supports atheism, when it does not explain how evlion can occur without having the formation of matter as a starting point.
Exactly.

Evolution does not support atheism. Atheists that claim it does (including Richard Dawkins) either argue that evolution negates the existence of a God that created us as human or they don't understand evolution.

format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
The deeds themself have no more nor no less value. However, the existence of God(swt) gives permenace to the deeds and helps establish standards for the deeds to be of absolute value and indepenent of culture. In a non-go universe, the concept of good or bad deeds will tend to be based upon the thoughts and desires of society
What standards precisely does the existence of God establish? Why are standards less relevant in an atheistic universe?
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Uthman
07-31-2008, 10:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skavau
Absolutely.

But that wasn't my argument. My argument was that it is impossible for someone like me, who disbelieves in 'souls' (on the grounds of no evidence) to consider any hypothetical needs of 'souls'.

It is the equivalent of me asking you to consider the need of your thetans. It makes no sense to you.
Sure. :)
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barney
08-01-2008, 12:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Woodrow
Yet an atheist has to believe that matter came ito existence spontaneously. I have yet to see one bit of empiracal evidence that matter can come into being from nothing. You can not have evolution without matter, What was the evolutinary process that caused matter to be?


The evidence of abcence isnt abcence of evidence! Sure their is no evidence at present for how matter came into being. There is theorys. One day there may be or will be accepted theory or theorys tested to fact. There is work being done right now. This month CERN will start attempting to create dark matter in their atom smasher. Bingo , then we have created matter and only 5000 years after creating the wheel. Would that make us God?

On the flip side, there is not a shred of empirical evidence for God, and based on the only evidences we have,(scriptures that are provably full of holes), it's simply a case of choosing the ockhims razor.


I have no doubt you are an altruistic caring person and that you do derive joy by doing good. But, the reality is that without the existence of a god, the deeds of the best man have no more value then the deeds of the most evil man. Both will leave the exact same size hole in a bucket of water, if they poke their finger into it and remove it.

Have to disagree again woody. Hitler and Bin laden are clearly evil. With or without their beleif in God they leave scars on humanity that last, perhaps forever. Me in my job may only benifit a few people. Thats a few drops less in the bucket.
Dieseases used to come from God as punishment for sin. One atheist, Curie devoted her life to doing good. She found penaccilin and tipped that particular bucket over. I needent repeat examples, you will understand my point. If however we rely on a supposed God or even on a supposed Gods rather bizzare and often cruel instructions, we are sitting in a bucket waiting for someone to empty it when we have perfectly good hands ourselves and 1400 years or 2000 or 4000 years pass by with nobody outside the bucket emptying a drop.
In somalia Beleivers and atheists alike gave millions in food aid to help the starving. Those who professed faith turned the money into bullets.
I propose we bear personal responsibility to mankind for our actions, not to a deity who by the very starvation of those people shows an absence.


Your intention may be to do good in this life, but it takes faith to believe you actually did. You will never know if the best thing you ever did, will not turn out to be detrimental to all you love sometime in the future. It is by faith you believe that your good deeds will result in lasting good.

I could have faith that God wanted me flog myself, fast or for my kids to not receive a blood transfusion to save their lives. This will not stop any detrimental effects happening. I also cant take responsibilitys for everything that happens in the world, simply do my share. Most of the time I can see the results of any Good i do, as a patient of mine recovers. Sometimes i cant. I fixed the old guys tyre on a dark night. He may have crashed three minuites later and died. Would i not fix his tyre in future? God isnt going to fix it for him.

Unless you have some quantifiable, qualifiable data to prove that is true, you are operating under the belief it is and that requires faith.

But I do understand what you mean. I can have trust in my own actions however without having a God. There are billions of theists around, all having faith that they are doing good. Circumsising babies and blowing Trainloads of shoppers to a supposed hell. I Quantify my data based on the results I see, which is i feel better than quantifying it to something unquantifyable



and peace to you also. We may not agree, but it is good to kow that disagreement does not need to result in anger or lack of respect for each others views.
Best wishes :)
Reply

czgibson
08-01-2008, 01:15 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
it seems the topmost reason for people disbelieving in our modern world is a lack of harmony and peace yet people dont realise they contribute greatly to that exact lack of harmony and peace by refusing to obey the laws of God !!
I don't think that reason would even feature on a list of Top 10 reasons to be an atheist.

Lack of evidence would surely be number one.

Peace
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
08-01-2008, 01:20 PM
^ i agree lack of proof would be one of the greatest reasons. but surely the corruption is a close second?
Reply

czgibson
08-01-2008, 01:41 PM
Greetings,
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ i agree lack of proof would be one of the greatest reasons.
Whoa there! That's something different. I don't think anybody expects any proof on the matter to be forthcoming any time soon. Plus, of course, if we did have proof that god existed, faith would be meaningless and unnecessary. You wouldn't have to believe god existed, you would simply know it to be true, which is a very different thing.

What I mean is a sheer lack of evidence of any sort to suggest that the entire theistic religious edifice wasn't simply created by primitive humans as a way of explaining misfortune, adversity and disease on the basis of hopelessly limited knowledge, and as a moral regulator to prevent society from falling apart.

but surely the corruption is a close second?
It depends what you mean by corruption, but if you're referring to the problem of evil, then yes, that is a very prominent reason why many people do not believe in god.

Peace
Reply

Azy
08-01-2008, 02:00 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
it seems the topmost reason for people disbelieving in our modern world is a lack of harmony and peace yet people dont realise they contribute greatly to that exact lack of harmony and peace by refusing to obey the laws of God !!
To be honest I don't think the majority of people have really thought this through (in the general public).
People who follow the wrong religious rules or no religious rules do so in the main part because that's how things were when they got here, not really through a conscious refusal. How many people honestly weighed up all the options when making a decision about religion? How many people actually made a decision rather than being simply led into it by their family or friends from a young age?

I would also contend that a lack of peace and harmony tends to exist wherever people cannot or will not reconcile their differences, whether they are religious or otherwise. Why after thousands of years has the Word of God, a spiritual peaceful message, not brought love between every man and his brother?
Probably because the scriptures tend to divide people into groups of 'them' and 'us', creating differences and implications of inferiority.
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Skavau
08-01-2008, 07:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
it seems the topmost reason for people disbelieving in our modern world is a lack of harmony and peace yet people dont realise they contribute greatly to that exact lack of harmony and peace by refusing to obey the laws of God !!
This makes no sense.

How is "refusing to obey the laws of God" a contribution to a lack of harmony and peace?
Reply

barney
08-01-2008, 09:19 PM
I think that the provability of falsehoods within scripture is very high on the list. How can people be expected to beleive something thats demonstrated to be, not just untrue, but the complete opposite, in a measurable way that anyone, if they chose to investigate, could see.

The other main reason to be atheist is the Gods of Monotheism are so horrific that it needs either a used car salesman or a Labour spin docter to sell them to an adult.
Reply

IbnAbdulHakim
08-01-2008, 09:22 PM
^ thats very untrue barney but it does reflect your experiences.

The message of God is received without ANY exhortation countless times, just looking at the lives of previous believers or even modern believers is a testimony to that. I mean who sold islam to cat stephens, or jermaine jackson or many many other reverts? they all accept through experience..
Reply

SixTen
08-01-2008, 11:16 PM
[QUOTE=barney;982767]I think that the provability of falsehoods within scripture is very high on the list. How can people be expected to beleive something thats demonstrated to be, not just untrue, but the complete opposite, in a measurable way that anyone, if they chose to investigate, could see.

The other main reason to be atheist is the Gods of Monotheism are so horrific that it needs either a used car salesman or a Labour spin docter to sell them to an adult.[/QUOTE]

I would say, atheism needs a care salesman/labour spin doctor - if we talk statistically - of the makeup of the world - I mean that is more accurate than subjective feelings to make such a statement, right? Unless, you feel that you are politically correct, as you put yourself on an intellectual highhorse, making your opinions somewhat overshadow in ratios well over 1:1000000.
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Chuck
08-02-2008, 09:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
^ i agree lack of proof would be one of the greatest reasons. but surely the corruption is a close second?
In this world signs are most important than simply facts and figures. Anyone who had experience with investment would know what I'm taking about. We live for the future by looking at signs in the past and present.

“The keys of the Unseen are five: “Verily, Allah! With Him (Alone) is the knowledge of the Hour, He sends down the rain, and knows that which is in the wombs. No person knows what he will earn tomorrow, and no person knows in what land he will die. Verily Allah is All-Knower, All-Aware (of things)’ [31:34].” (Bukhari)
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Azy
08-04-2008, 08:05 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
In this world signs are most important than simply facts and figures. Anyone who had experience with investment would know what I'm taking about. We live for the future by looking at signs in the past and present.
You might have to elaborate on that one, it's pretty much common sense that can be applied to almost any area of life. What sort of signs are we talking about and in what way do they relate to (dis)belief?
Reply

barney
08-06-2008, 11:48 PM
Sixten and all.

My veiws are not based on experience. I have no experience of God, as , i would argue, nobody else has.
My veiws are based on people who lived 1-4 thousand years ago's perceived experience of God which they decided to Jot down, decided by them to be unchangable by us, even though it has been multipley, to the doom of us all.
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-07-2008, 09:12 AM
^ when i said experience i didnt mean experience of God. I meant your life experiences have lead you to think this way
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Chuck
08-08-2008, 08:07 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
You might have to elaborate on that one, it's pretty much common sense that can be applied to almost any area of life. What sort of signs are we talking about and in what way do they relate to (dis)belief?
Exactly, it is common sense, so my objection why demand factual proof of God. God can give non-arguable proof for every generation, but in that case, believing won't be a matter of choice. As in the Quran God said:
Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you (of your own choice) a guardian over them. (6:107)
As for the signs there are many: quran, way of life (which some people argue as predisposition to belief), importance of investment (a rational person would strike a right balance between this life and next life rather than take extremes and risk losing one over the other)... but this is whole another topic.
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Pygoscelis
08-08-2008, 08:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Chuck
Exactly, it is common sense, so my objection why demand factual proof of God. God can give non-arguable proof for every generation, but in that case, believing won't be a matter of choice.
I fail to see why that would be a bad thing. Obedience would still be a matter of choice. How we act on the information once believed would still be a matter of choice. And if you don't believe, is it really an informed choice?
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IbnAbdulHakim
08-11-2008, 09:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
I fail to see why that would be a bad thing. Obedience would still be a matter of choice. How we act on the information once believed would still be a matter of choice. And if you don't believe, is it really an informed choice?
it is a very well informed choice

you have all the sources, you are informed. You are on an islamic forum and you have the Quran at your finger tips.

You have access to every preacher and teacher, everything you need to start building up faith.


but you also have all philosophies, arguments and debates, books of many atheists/agnostics and the like. You've seen both sides and made an informed choice.


if you choose to think your lifes a random chance, thats your choice after everything you've been through and seen
Reply

Converse02
08-15-2008, 11:42 PM
Hi everyone,
I'm an atheist and new here. I was a bit surprised to see there are other atheists here, but I think that's a good thing. We are very much misunderstood.

Anyway, I thought I'll jump in this "being an atheist" thread as I am one by responding to the thread above.

format_quote Originally Posted by IbnAbdulHakim
if you choose to think your lifes a random chance, thats your choice after everything you've been through and seen
I do not think my life is purely random chance. Science has revealed I am here through evolution by natural selection. Natural selection is non-random.

Life is, of course, partly random chance. For example, there are types of genetic mutations and environmental factors that are completely and mathematically random.

I know many children who developed horrible cancers and died a painful death. The DNA in their body underwent a random mutation, became immortalize, metastasizes and consumed the host. I do not accept or have reason to suspect some supernatural hand was at play.
Reply

جوري
08-16-2008, 12:06 AM
Isn't it amazing you speak of mutations and natural selection in the same breath...
how does 'natural selection' reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions? further how does evolution work, and what do you mean by random mutations? Do you know of any mutations other than those documeted frameshift, missense, nonsense mutations etc, even jumping genes or acrocentric breaks in DNA do we know any of those to actually cause speciation?

to begin with, where and how and for what purpose did life originate, and if your 'natural selection' was non-random... then what is the driving force behind it?

Atheists aren't misunderstood at all.. they are devoutly religious, only from the opposite end of the spectrum!


cheers
Reply

جوري
08-16-2008, 12:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by barney
Sixten and all.

My veiws are not based on experience. I have no experience of God, as , i would argue, nobody else has.
My veiws are based on people who lived 1-4 thousand years ago's perceived experience of God which they decided to Jot down, decided by them to be unchangable by us, even though it has been multipley, to the doom of us all.
How is religion the doom of us all? considering most mass massacres in the world happened on the hands of atheists?

People can have an amazing relationship/experience with God... but you would attribute it to chance, or 'luck' or or or many of the multiple explanations that never in fact observe the law of parsimony, which was supposedly establihed to enforce logic and abnegate the 'supernatural'


cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 02:03 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Isn't it amazing you speak of mutations and natural selection in the same breath...
Why, scientists do it all the time?

I will answer your questions, but I hope you will verify these answers and actually try to learn biology from going to school, reading books, and asking professors than going online asking some random poster.

how does 'natural selection' reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions?
Simple. Not all trinucleotide repeat expansion to the next generation are harmful. They get passed on generation to generation. They are not naturally selected out. It is only when the trinucleotide repeats reach a certain threshold through genetic anticipation that they becomes dangerous.

A healthy person's genome can develop, by dynamic mutation, trinucleotide repeat expansion. Slippage in DNA replication causes it.

Now explain to me, how does "Islam" reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions?

further how does evolution work
It was discovered, 150 years ago, by Darwin, that evolution works by natural selection. He summarized his evidence in Origin of Species, and it has been largely confirmed and further expanded by scientists across the planet in nearly all major scientific universities and organizations on Earth.

What does Islam tell you about evolution? Where is the empiric evidence that it is true?

and what do you mean by random mutations?
Look up the mathematical definition of "random" and then the biological definition of "mutation." It's that simple.

Do you know of any mutations other than those documeted frameshift, missense, nonsense mutations etc, even jumping genes or acrocentric breaks in DNA do we know any of those to actually cause speciation?
Yes. All species on earth is the results of gradual accumulation of mutation of some sort. Here are some old lists.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
If you type "speciation" in pubmed, you get 8000 hits.
Try this from Berkeley:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosit...eciation.shtml

There are many examples in agriculture of artificial speciation.

to begin with, where and how and for what purpose did life originate
Where: somewhere in a primordial soup.
How: There are multiple possible idea in science on this (RNA world, clay, etc). I think anyone could be possible.
What: The purpose of biological life on Earth is what they make of it.
What are the answers to these questions in Islam?

and if your 'natural selection' was non-random... then what is the driving force behind it? cheers
Nature is the driving force behind the selection...You know, natural selection.
Imagine you have a bunch of alleles, some produce faster tigers and some slower tigers. Which ones do you think will be selected for? It's surely not random.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 02:11 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
How is religion the doom of us all? considering most mass massacres in the world happened on the hands of atheists?

People can have an amazing relationship/experience with God... but you would attribute it to chance, or 'luck' or or or many of the multiple explanations that never in fact observe the law of parsimony, which was supposedly establihed to enforce logic and abnegate the 'supernatural'

cheers
People kill for God, no one has ever killed for "no God" or atheism. What would be the point?

There is no reason to believe anyone actually had a relationship with some invisible guy with magical powers. I doubt anyone would attribute it all to "luck" or chance, although it probably played a role. Do you think chance and randomness do not exist? Do you even know what chance is?
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 02:38 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Atheists aren't misunderstood at all.. they are devoutly religious, only from the opposite end of the spectrum!
This is a perfect example of how we are misunderstood.

Merely not believing in something, whether it be Zeus, Allah, Jesus, or Xenu, can't be called a religion.
Reply

energy_22
08-18-2008, 02:56 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Isn't it amazing you speak of mutations and natural selection in the same breath.........

Mutations and natural selection go together.

I have a small cist on my arm. It is an example of a mutation.

Religious people say “the odds of such and such are a billion to 1 and therefore a superior being must have created it ”

Each and every day there are a billion mutations like my cist in the natural world.

Only 1 succeeds and 999,999,999 fail.

The reason the mutations succeed or fail is natural selection.

Cheers! :)
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 03:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Why, scientists do it all the time?
Are you appealing to authority or speaking on behalf of the whole?

I will answer your questions, but I hope you will verify these answers and actually try to learn biology from going to school, reading books, and asking professors than going online asking some random poster.
I'll be waiting-- I am sure unlike what we are accustomed to, this time around it will be very interesting!


Simple. Not all trinucleotide repeat expansion to the next generation are harmful. They get passed on generation to generation. They are not naturally selected out. It is only when the trinucleotide repeats reach a certain threshold through genetic anticipation that they becomes dangerous.
I am aware what trinucleotide repeat expansion are, I wouldn't have put them there for you to ponder otherwise.. I am not sure why you are giving me a mental lexicon rather than concilliating why natural selection could have allowd its antithesis to go on?

A healthy person's genome can develop, by dynamic mutation, trinucleotide repeat expansion. Slippage in DNA replication causes it.
see my above reply.. I have already defined several mutations for you in my previous post and would like for you to demonstrate for me, which on of them was proven to cause 'speciation'!

Now explain to me, how does "Islam" reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions?
What is there so reconcile? suffering is part of the human condition, Islam however doesn't impose theories that it can't later attest!


It was discovered, 150 years ago, by Darwin, that evolution works by natural selection. He summarized his evidence in Origin of Species, and it has been largely confirmed and further expanded by scientists across the planet in nearly all major scientific universities and organizations on Earth.
What was discovered? about a hundred years ago Dr. D'arcy Thompson of scotland's university of St. Andrews, perhaps the greatest polymath, wrote a book also taught in major universities where he marries both math and zoology beautifully in his on Growth and Form and challenges some atheio-conventional wissdom, in fact in the very least his book honors one of the most basic laws of science which is the principle of parsimony.. Does Dawkin et al. at the humanism dept. discuss his work so that you can be at ease cutting and pasting should I drop a future query? I digress though,...you see, you haven't reconcilled for me how 'natural selection' allows for something, that you have merely googled 20 mins ago to go on for generations with worsening rather than resulting in the evolution of organisms best adapted to the environment which is what natural selection is by definition. perhaps you ought to give it some thought?

What does Islam tell you about evolution? Where is the empiric evidence that it is true?
Islam deals with human destiny, morality, social structure, politics, humanism, economics, and spiritual fulfilment .. what would you like it to tell me of evolution? Whether evo is the way it happened as you imagine along with 7-10% of the population or not.. what you define as 'nature' I define as God.. and God is the driving force behind life!


Look up the mathematical definition of "random" and then the biological definition of "mutation." It's that simple.
I have defined several mutations for you, I'd like you to take the time to demonstrate for me how from a parasitic protozoa we have evolved into complex beings using those random mutations.. and later devloped sentience, further explain to me why it is necessary to evolve into humans of both sexes or why death is necessary in the process... shouldn't the end product of evolution be perfection?


Yes. All species on earth is the results of gradual accumulation of mutation of some sort. Here are some old lists.
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/speciation.html
If you type "speciation" in pubmed, you get 8000 hits.
Try this from Berkeley:
http://evolution.berkeley.edu/evosit...eciation.shtml
All of the atheists that have so far come on board have shared with us this gem of a site, but for some reason can't gauge the topic so that it merely rolls off their keyboard perfectly sensical...
There is such a thing as theoretical science rather than one of practical considerations, until such a time when you use modern technology and I assure you the useage of vectors is very real, to demonstrate for us these amazing transformation, it will remain in the realm of science fiction/ religion for new age folks such as yourself!

There are many examples in agriculture of artificial speciation.
indeed and we have a geneticist here on board, who can tell you a thing or two about breeding cotton and how he personally has a direct hand in the process.. that it doesn't merely happen at because it lay there for an unspecified period of time and decided it was bored with one form to morph into another!

Where: somewhere in a primordial soup.
How: There are multiple possible idea in science on this (RNA world, clay, etc). I think anyone could be possible.
What: The purpose of biological life on Earth is what they make of it.
What are the answers to these questions in Islam?
This is funny..
it is like telling me, when people have a headache they can take an aspirin or an acetaminophen or anacin, or panadol or phenacetin.. what is my take home lesson du jour here? go out there and decipher what you may?

Islam is an expansive topic and I give it more respect than a quip, the way you do of your brand of science.. which is a shame really for one to speak of the entire scientific community and do such an inadequate job of it..

we have a discover Islam section where it can answer you some basic questions if you are in fact genuinly interested!


Nature is the driving force behind the selection...You know, natural selection.
Imagine you have a bunch of alleles, some produce faster tigers and some slower tigers. Which ones do you think will be selected for? It's surely not random.
who or what is nature? as to whom will be selected, well once again I say we have many different forms of trinucleotide repeat expansions which not only get selected but get worst and worst with each generation, how can 'nature' allow for that, denying its very basic principal?
Try to focus your compositions so that it is less visceral, especially when you are supposedly dealing with logic!...

cheers
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 03:49 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
People kill for God, no one has ever killed for "no God" or atheism. What would be the point?

There is no reason to believe anyone actually had a relationship with some invisible guy with magical powers. I doubt anyone would attribute it all to "luck" or chance, although it probably played a role. Do you think chance and randomness do not exist? Do you even know what chance is?
Perhaps you should define chance for us and why it favors some more than others?

People don't kill for God.. they kill because they are evil.. and more evil has been demonstrated by atheists than all the religions combined..

that is actually a fact!


cheers
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 03:54 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
This is a perfect example of how we are misunderstood.

Merely not believing in something, whether it be Zeus, Allah, Jesus, or Xenu, can't be called a religion.
But you do believe in something.. you just can't articulate it really well (which is a shame) so you'd rather reference us to some pages or give us the dictionary definition, as if none of us here have seen or perceived anything like it!
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 04:00 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by energy_22
Mutations and natural selection go together.
They do?.. that is amazing.. which of the mutations do you consider helpful to us?

I have a small cist on my arm. It is an example of a mutation.
what is a 'cist' and you might want to have that looked it, just might end up being a Pityriasis lichenoides et varioliformis acuta.. eh if caused by a 'mutation' I wouldn't wait!

Religious people say “the odds of such and such are a billion to 1 and therefore a superior being must have created it ”
Your point being?

Each and every day there are a billion mutations like my cist in the natural world.
Yeah tell us more about that and how it relates to unicellular organisms becoming human?

Only 1 succeeds and 999,999,999 fail.

The reason the mutations succeed or fail is natural selection.

Cheers! :)
You've tickled me pink.... pls do thank your 'lucky stars' this isn't a paper you are being graded on..

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 10:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Are you appealing to authority or speaking on behalf of the whole?
I am appealing to a legitimate authority, scientists, which the vast majority of accept evolution. The scientists who are evolutionists have the fossils, they win.
What's wrong with that?

I am aware what trinucleotide repeat expansion are, I wouldn't have put them there for you to ponder otherwise.. I am not sure why you are giving me a mental lexicon rather than concilliating why natural selection could have allowd its antithesis to go on?
You obviously do not know what a trinucleotide repeat expansion is. If you did, you wouldn't have asked me such a simple question any genetics student could answer. What is the "antithesis" of natural selection? I have just answered how TNRs and evolution are compatible.

What was discovered?
Evolution by natural selection.

About a hundred years ago Dr. D'arcy Thompson of scotland's university of St. Andrews, perhaps the greatest polymath, wrote a book also taught in major universities where he marries both math and zoology beautifully in his on Growth and Form and challenges some atheio-conventional wissdom, in fact in the very least his book honors one of the most basic laws of science which is the principle of parsimony.. Does Dawkin et al. at the humanism dept. discuss his work so that you can be at ease cutting and pasting should I drop a future query?
Dr. D'arcy Thompson work is interesting. It doesn't refute evolution by natural selection.

I digress though,...you see, you haven't reconcilled for me how 'natural selection' allows for something, that you have merely googled 20 mins ago to go on for generations with worsening rather than resulting in the evolution of organisms best adapted to the environment which is what natural selection is by definition. perhaps you ought to give it some thought?
I have reconciled it, let me repeat it for you again. Please read a textbook or email a professor to confirm. It is not that hard to understand with a little work.

TNRs DO NOT necessarily lead to a worst outcome in the next generation. The next generation, although the genotype is with extra TNRs, may be phenotypically the same. If the creature is phenotypically the same, the worsening genes are passed on, they are not selected out. Many TNRs are harmful ONLY AFTER reaching a certain threshold. When it reaches this point, it is then selected out.
TNRs come into being de novo by DNA slippage during replication.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 10:39 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
All of the atheists that have so far come on board have shared with us this gem of a site, but for some reason can't gauge the topic so that it merely rolls off their keyboard perfectly sensical...
The site is the most concise one out there based on published scientific data, it is the best.
Pubmed and talkorigins are sites used by many scientists, they are indeed a gem.


indeed and we have a geneticist here on board, who can tell you a thing or two about breeding cotton and how he personally has a direct hand in the process.. that it doesn't merely happen at because it lay there for an unspecified period of time and decided it was bored with one form to morph into another!
I will be interested in reading his published scientific papers, what is his name and what university did he attend?
An individual cotton plant doesn't get bored and morph, but it's progeny are certainly morphology different in subtle ways from the parent. It's germline DNA the changes by recombination and by mutation. Your understanding of evolution is rather poor. Perhaps you would be more willing to accept it if you took a class in it?

it is like telling me, when people have a headache they can take an aspirin or an acetaminophen or anacin, or panadol or phenacetin.
Yes, when people do have a headache, some DO take aspirin or acetaminophen. What is some funny about it?

Islam is an expansive topic and I give it more respect than a quip, the way you do of your brand of science.. which is a shame really for one to speak of the entire scientific community and do such an inadequate job of it..
What is a shame is your lack of understanding of science and you inability to give an Islamic answer. You do not even know what a "random mutation" is.

How have I done an inadequate job?
I do not speak for the entire scientific community. The pubmed website does. The talkorigins website cites scientists. Scientist that have published, and given data and evidence. If you have a question about the individual papers, you can contact the scientists cited.

I say we have many different forms of trinucleotide repeat expansions which not only get selected but get worst and worst with each generation, how can 'nature' allow for that, denying its very basic principal?
Try to focus your compositions so that it is less visceral, especially when you are supposedly dealing with logic!...
I will answer a THIRD time. It is a very simple question you can answer with a very BASIC understanding of genetics. Instead of being lazy, why not go to a university or email a university professor or read a book instead of asking some random person who you do no know on the islamicforum, who you do not seem to trust anyway?

TNRs are caused de novo (anew) by DNA slippage.
The GENOTYPE gets worse and worse, NOT THE PHENOTYPE. The mutation initially SILENT. It will therefore get pass to generation to generation (understand?).
It is only AFTER a threshold will the TNR mutation reveals itself, so it becomes selected out.
Please try to grasp this.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 10:46 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Perhaps you should define chance for us and why it favors some more than others?

People don't kill for God.. they kill because they are evil.. and more evil has been demonstrated by atheists than all the religions combined..

that is actually a fact!


cheers
Here is a page of randomness, goto the biology section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness
Seriously, you have to READ and get yourself education on evolution.

People do kill for God. The last recorded words of the 9/11 hijackers were concerning God. Not all people who kill are evil, some kill in self-defense. So you are wrong, again.

Atheists have killed, just like people who don't believe in the Santa and the Tooth fairy have killed. In fact, more killing has been demostrated by non-Santa believers than Santa believers and that's a fact!!
It doesn't mean Santa is real.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 10:52 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Originally Posted by energy_22 View Post
Mutations and natural selection go together."
they do?.. that is amazing.. which of the mutations do you consider helpful to us?
Mutation and natural selection do go together. Where did you learn they do not? Which textbook? This is very BASIC knowledge concerning evolution.

Take malaria resistance. It is a result of a mutation.
The genetic disorder is due to the mutation of a single nucleotide, from a GAG to GUG codon mutation. This is normally a benign mutation, causing no apparent effects on the secondary. Very useful if you are in a malaria infested area.

This, again, is very basic knowledge to any genetics student.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 11:10 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Islam is an expansive topic and I give it more respect than a quip...
What an excuse for being unable to answer. What a shame.
Please, will another Muslim, more educated and able to look up a dictionary (like the meaning of "random" and "mutation") please step up.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 11:53 AM
To Tumble

I have received you message, but cannot answer because I am under 50. Hope you do not mind.

I majored in biochemistry, am also a medical doctor with research experience also, and yes, very very sure of things. You could have fooled me, her lack of understanding in genetics and evolution is a shame, especially for a doctor. She asked "further how does evolution work?" Are you kidding me?

I have answered her trinucleotide repeat question, it is pitiful another research doctor would not know it by second nature. It is also pitiful she would debate TNRs on the islamicforum. If she has a dispute with it, bring it up with the scientific community at the university level with for own research, not at a forum.

If she is truly a medical doctor with research experience, she will know that the vast majority of scientists disagree with the Islamic slant and support evolution. Science fully supports evolution, everyone knows it, especially a doctor.
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 04:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
I am appealing to a legitimate authority, scientists, which the vast majority of accept evolution. The scientists who are evolutionists have the fossils, they win.
What's wrong with that?
'appealing to authority' is a logical fallacy.. you've heard of those? further which scientists are you freely speaking on behalf of? you've done a formal intervew with that 1% of the population and they have appointed you to speak on their behalf? Science is ever changing.. and in the same unit no two scientists agree on the same findings let alone the world over..
one of the many reasons this is fallacious--
If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a subject, then it will fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority using the disputing experts. This is because for almost any claim being made and "supported" by one expert there will be a counterclaim that is made and "supported" by another expert. In such cases an Appeal to Authority would tend to be futile. In such cases, the dispute has to be settled by consideration of the actual issues under dispute. Since either side in such a dispute can invoke experts, the dispute cannot be rationally settled by Appeals to Authority. S

Got it? for every expert you produce, I can produce another expert to counter claim especially when you are speaking of conjectures rather than documented facts.. putting fossils in a display case and labeling them evolution is equal to putting fossils in a display case and labeling them extinct species! -- question is and remains can you reason make conjectures and refutations of modern science on your own accord to sustain a debate or will you reach for adhoms and an onslaught of experts whose findings you can't even articulate fluidly so that it makes sense to the reader?

You obviously do not know what a trinucleotide repeat expansion is. If you did, you wouldn't have asked me such a simple question any genetics student could answer. What is the "antithesis" of natural selection? I have just answered how TNRs and evolution are compatible.
You actually didn't answer, short of rephrasing what I wrote.. what you did was project on a subject that you just learned 30 mins before answering the post..
Natural selection is process in nature by which, according to Darwin's theory of evolution, only the organisms best adapted to their environment tend to survive and transmit their genetic characteristics in increasing numbers to succeeding generations while those less adapted tend to be eliminated.
and here I am telling you in trinucleotide repeats there is an increase in severity of a disease or earlier onset worsening so over several generations.. again how could natural selection allow for that?

Evolution by natural selection.
this is really a fragment that is superfluous .. what are you trying to say?

Dr. D'arcy Thompson work is interesting. It doesn't refute evolution by natural selection.
No.. it refutes evolution by amassing a lot of data under one umbrella better known as Ockham's Razor!

I have reconciled it, let me repeat it for you again. Please read a textbook or email a professor to confirm. It is not that hard to understand with a little work.
Again, you haven't see my above pargraph.. I can't tell you how foreseeable you are.. most of you color our pages with the same comments when cornered!

TNRs DO NOT necessarily lead to a worst outcome in the next generation. The next generation, although the genotype is with extra TNRs, may be phenotypically the same. If the creature is phenotypically the same, the worsening genes are passed on, they are not selected out. Many TNRs are harmful ONLY AFTER reaching a certain threshold. When it reaches this point, it is then selected out.
TNRs come into being de novo by DNA slippage during replication.
How have they been slected out, when they are actually still with us?
Tell me how fragile X, Friedreich ataxia, huntington's chorea etc etc have been made extinct by natural selection?

cheers
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 05:14 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
The site is the most concise one out there based on published scientific data, it is the best.
Pubmed and talkorigins are sites used by many scientists, they are indeed a gem.
These are third party sites made for the populace, they are nondescript and nonspecific, and are usually satisfactory to mediocre folks who loan themselves to logical fallacies as a way to debate, where you claim something to be true based on the expertise of an authority rather than objective facts-- and it is a shame really, that even so-called free thinkers adopt the same herd mentality, that they so wish to escape!



I will be interested in reading his published scientific papers, what is his name and what university did he attend?
An individual cotton plant doesn't get bored and morph, but it's progeny are certainly morphology different in subtle ways from the parent. It's germline DNA the changes by recombination and by mutation. Your understanding of evolution is rather poor. Perhaps you would be more willing to accept it if you took a class in it?
His name on board is mustfaMC.. you'll have to ask him directly.. I am rather amused about your oppugning his qualifications, yet readily dispense with yours, but for the most part still write like a sophomoric novice!
What is your understanding of evolution?

Yes, when people do have a headache, some DO take aspirin or acetaminophen. What is some funny about it?
'some funny' about that, is it doesn't address the etiology of their headache and how it is best treated.. I was using it as an anaology to highlight how ridiculous you are being, when carpet bombing words that have no direction or function.. and in the end reads like a pseudo intellect, completely disjointed and lacking focus..

to continue on the anaology..
Don't folks with trigeminal neuralgia present with a headache?, how about folks with Orbital cellulitis? how about others with polymyalgia rheumatica, or folks with Temporal arteritis how about folks with encephalomyelitis, how about someone who just under went a spianl tab or folks with a GBM?.. do you propose they all take an asa for their headache without an assessment or understanding to the etiology of their disease? If you can't or unwilling to engage the topic on a level, simply say so. I assure you, I too have better things to do with my lunch hour.. but don't try the shot gun approach, one of them is sure to be a hit!

What is a shame is your lack of understanding of science and you inability to give an Islamic answer. You do not even know what a "random mutation" is.
What exactly do you mean by an 'Islamic answer'? perhaps you can elaborate on that..
and while at it, go ahead and tell me which 'random mutation' was beneficial to speciation.. further how exactly have you assessed my lack of understanding of a 'random mutation'? is it merely because I ask you to demonstrate to us how they assist your argument? Do you think asking you to loan credence to what you write equates with not understanding the etiology of?

How have I done an inadequate job?
I do not speak for the entire scientific community. The pubmed website does. The talkorigins website cites scientists. Scientist that have published, and given data and evidence. If you have a question about the individual papers, you can contact the scientists cited.
I didn't know all scientists wrote on pubmed that is really news to me.. here I am wasting in the way of $400 on subscriptions to uptodate when I could have gotten it all from google! Also do you know how to critique an article? there is an article out about the benefits of milk and about ten on the disadvantages of it.. do you know how to use reason to filter through which to accept and which to toss aside? Do you have an understanding of relative risk, P values, standard of deviation, confounders, biases etc etc that exist within any written reasearch?
see my answer for paragraph one!



I will answer a THIRD time. It is a very simple question you can answer with a very BASIC understanding of genetics. Instead of being lazy, why not go to a university or email a university professor or read a book instead of asking some random person who you do no know on the islamicforum, who you do not seem to trust anyway?
It is prudent indeed to spend ones time reading in lieu of debates with wannabes on a forum.. but you are the one who shared your superior understanding of genetics in a shot gun fashion, and it seems only fair play that we question you on it no? Surely you don't expect to give us a list of your accolades and feel violated at best when asked to support your claims?

TNRs are caused de novo (anew) by DNA slippage.
The GENOTYPE gets worse and worse, NOT THE PHENOTYPE. The mutation initially SILENT. It will therefore get pass to generation to generation (understand?).
It is only AFTER a threshold will the TNR mutation reveals itself, so it becomes selected out.
Please try to grasp this.
You seem a little exasperated, why is that? I am not sure why you are capping the phenotypic or how it affects this disorder one way or the other? How is the phenotype of fragile x silent when they have very specific phenotypic features?

here have a look
http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050701/111.html

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye
may include macrocephaly and frontal bossing (unusually prominent forehead). After puberty, macro-orchidism is present in affected men. Additional findings may include strabismus and mild connective tissue dysplasia, such as mitral valve prolapse, hyperextensible joints, and pes planus. Behavior is characterized by attention deficits, hand flapping, hand biting, and gaze aversion
Doesn't phenotypic after all denote--the observable properties?
indeed one of us should brush up on genetics!

cheers
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 05:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Here is a page of randomness, goto the biology section.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Randomness
Seriously, you have to READ and get yourself education on evolution.
I tell you, I enjoy nothing more over random drivel save to have you throw in a random page from wiki.. exactly what are you trying to tell me with this page? I know what a random mutation is, I am merely asking you which of those 'random mutations' we have names for them you know (which I have enclosed in my previous post to make your wiki search easier) have caused speciation practically not theoretically.. can you do that? so we are not writing a 50 volume essay?

People do kill for God. The last recorded words of the 9/11 hijackers were concerning God. Not all people who kill are evil, some kill in self-defense. So you are wrong, again.
Actually many contend that 911 was an inside job.. be that as it may, if I am to ignore everything and agree it was committed by folks doing it for God.. I ask you to find me where in the Quran does it say go killing civillians for God?
and lastly 2000 people in two towers doesn't equal the scores of millions killed on the hands of atheists.. lenin and xedong alone amassing 35 millions...

Atheists have killed, just like people who don't believe in the Santa and the Tooth fairy have killed. In fact, more killing has been demostrated by non-Santa believers than Santa believers and that's a fact!!
It doesn't mean Santa is real.

Again, untrue.. of all the religions combined none have matched what lenin alone amassed in slayings!
The rest of your comments I'll just attribute to your inner child speaking!

cheers
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Islam is an expansive topic and I give it more respect than a quip...
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
What an excuse for being unable to answer. What a shame.
Please, will another Muslim, more educated and able to look up a dictionary (like the meaning of "random" and "mutation") please step up.

What does random mutation have to do with Islam being an expansive topic?
are we confabulating? perhaps you should take five to think about what you will write before you actually write it, so you are not left in this quandary-- nonsensical and very emotional at best!

further, if you have a correspondence with another member by way of backbiting, I suggest you either exchange emails, or leave it in his user CP.. leaving personal comments on a thread is called spam!

cheers
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 05:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Mutation and natural selection do go together. Where did you learn they do not? Which textbook? This is very BASIC knowledge concerning evolution.

Take malaria resistance. It is a result of a mutation.
The genetic disorder is due to the mutation of a single nucleotide, from a GAG to GUG codon mutation. This is normally a benign mutation, causing no apparent effects on the secondary. Very useful if you are in a malaria infested area.

This, again, is very basic knowledge to any genetics student.
What you are trying to articulate here, (I hope), is that malaria is unable to survive in sickled cell.. indeed it is serendipitous.. but if they don't die of Malaria sickle cell will get them!.. so in fact.. substituting one disease state for another doesn't confer an advantage.. anymore than giving Malaria to someone with syphillis an advantage, former reasoning of course that spirochetes don't survive under high temp.
will you have saved one from syphilis but did them in with malaria (not very smart) but science is indeed ever correcting and ever evolving!..

and lastly you have not covered for us how mutations have caused speciations or are in fact beneficial... and I'll be waiting =)

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 08:05 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
'appealing to authority' is a logical fallacy.. you've heard of those? further which scientists are you freely speaking on behalf of? you've done a formal intervew with that 1% of the population and they have appointed you to speak on their behalf? Science is ever changing.. and in the same unit no two scientists agree on the same findings let alone the world over..
one of the many reasons this is fallacious--
If there is a significant amount of legitimate dispute among the experts within a subject, then it will fallacious to make an Appeal to Authority using the disputing experts. This is because for almost any claim being made and "supported" by one expert there will be a counterclaim that is made and "supported" by another expert. In such cases an Appeal to Authority would tend to be futile. In such cases, the dispute has to be settled by consideration of the actual issues under dispute. Since either side in such a dispute can invoke experts, the dispute cannot be rationally settled by Appeals to Authority. S
Is this a joke? The logical fallacy is called appeal to a DUBIOUS authority. Citing scientists who know their stuff is NOT a dubious authority. You can go on google.scholar or pubmed and find TONS of scientific papers on evolution.

"you've done a formal intervew with that 1% of the populationt" is another uneducated question. You do not have to conduct an interview with every scientist on the planet to know what the clear consensus is, especially in the AGE OF THE INTERNET. Do you conduct such an interview to know about the theory of gravity? Electomagnetism? Germ theory? The consensus at EVERY major science univerisity and organization on EARTH, from biology, to geology, to anthropology to genetics to radiometrics (physics) you name it, EVERY ONE...supports evolution. NO branch of science has scientists with a consensus that evolution is false. Scientists having meetings and journal club (do you even know what that is?) and would discuss such major breakthru.


Got it? for every expert you produce, I can produce another expert to counter claim especially when you are speaking of conjectures rather than documented facts..
Nonsense. There are far far far more scientists with data that support evolution, in EVERY major science university, in EVERY major science organization, in EVERY major science/natural history museum on EARTH. Please go to google.scholar or pubmed or Ovid or any of the scientific databases. For every expert listed in those sites, with their universities, can you produce another expert OF EQUALITY QUALITY to counter claim? You cannot. Can you name ONE scientist who has refuted evolution, from what university?


putting fossils in a display case and labeling them evolution is equal to putting fossils in a display case and labeling them extinct species! --
Wrong, again. You know little of evolution is it sadly shows. Please educate yourself.

question is and remains can you reason make conjectures and refutations of modern science on your own accord to sustain a debate or will you reach for adhoms and an onslaught of experts whose findings you can't even articulate fluidly so that it makes sense to the reader?
Evolution is based on EMPIRICAL evidence. Evidence you can touch and see, it is not mere philosophy and conjecture. They are backed by scientists, back by universities, who know the material, who written up experiments that are repeatable. If you reject science and reason and the evidence, then you believe "just because," on faith. Do not abandon your reason.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 08:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
to continue on the anaology..
Don't folks with trigeminal neuralgia present with a headache?, how about folks with Orbital cellulitis? how about others with polymyalgia rheumatica, or folks with Temporal arteritis how about folks with encephalomyelitis, how about someone who just under went a spianl tab or folks with a GBM?.. do you propose they all take an asa for their headache without an assessment or understanding to the etiology of their disease? If you can't or unwilling to engage the topic on a level, simply say so. I assure you, I too have better things to do with my lunch hour.. but don't try the shot gun approach, one of them is sure to be a hit!
Your "anaolgy" is false (if you are going to insult someone else's grammer and spelling, make such yours doesn't suck. It is worse than sophomoric.)
That was not your initial question. It was do people who have headaches take ASA, they DO. It does not mean that was the appropriate approach in all cases. Obviously, an appropriate history is needed first.
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 08:17 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Your "anaolgy" is false (if you are going to insult someone else's grammer and spelling, make such yours doesn't suck. It is worse than sophomoric.)
That was not your initial question. It was do people who have headaches take ASA, they DO. It does not mean that was the appropriate approach in all cases. Obviously, an appropriate history is needed first.
1- demonstrate to me where I am worse than sophomoric instead of hitting me back with what ails you!
2-How is my analogy false? pray do tell-- you throw our random nonsensical sentences that barely do anything with science and expect that they be earth shattering, indeed no different than one conferring an asa on any form of a headache..
the answer is 'evolution' by way of random selection, without going into any sort of details as to how, is the same as giving an asa to anyone with a headache without an understanding of disease process or etiology!
got it?

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 08:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Evolution by natural selection
this is really a fragment that is superfluous .. what are you trying to say?
Natural selection (which you apparently do not understand) is not superfluous. There are other ways evolution has been thought to occur, like lamackian.


No.. it refutes evolution by amassing a lot of data under one umbrella better known as Ockham's Razor!
What major science university or organization or branch of science have reached a consensus that it refutes evolution? It is only the fringe unscientific uneducated position of yours that it does.


ow have they been slected out, when they are actually still with us?
Tell me how fragile X, Friedreich ataxia, huntington's chorea etc etc have been made extinct by natural selection?
If you are a doctor as Tumble seemed to imply to me before, how can you POSSIBLY not know the answer to this? Any undergrad can answer this question. Genetic diseases can arise DE NOVO, either randomly or non-randomly. They are selected out, but can arise again de novo because DNA polymerase does NOT have 100% fidelity. A mere google search of any of the diseases you lists would likely have a "causes" section.
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 08:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Is this a joke? The logical fallacy is called appeal to a DUBIOUS authority. Citing scientists who know their stuff is NOT a dubious authority. You can go on google.scholar or pubmed and find TONS of scientific papers on evolution.
indeed going on any site will give you tons of scientific papers on evolution.. have you seen this one for instance
1
Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth

Dermott J. Mullan, mullan@bartol.udel.edu

Summary

We evaluate the probability Pr that the RNA of the first cell was
assembled randomly in the time available (1.11 billion years
[b.y.]). To do this calculation, we first set a strict upper limit
on the number of chemical reactions nr which could have occurred
before the first cell appeared.
In order to illustrate the consequences of the finite value of nr,
we make some extremely minimalist assumptions about cells. We
consider a cell composed of Np = 12 proteins, each containing Na =
14 amino acids. We refer to the minimum (Np , Na) set as a (12-14)
cell. Such a cell is smaller than some modern viruses.
The ability to perform any of the basic tasks of the cell is not
necessarily limited to a single protein. Many different proteins
among all those which were available in the primeval soup may have
been able to perform (say) waste disposal. In order to allow for
this in estimating Pr, we include a factor Q to describe how many
different proteins in the primeval soup could have performed each
of the basic tasks of cell operation. The larger Q is, the easier
it is to assemble a functional cell by random processes. However,
there is a maximum value Qmax that is set by phase space arguments.
The hypothesis that life originated by random processes requires
that Pr be of order unity. We estimate how large Q must be (Qra :
subscript “ra” denotes “random assembly”) in order to ensure Pr = 1
in the time that is available (1.11 b.y.). We find that Qra must be
so large as to exceed the maximum permissible value Qmax in the
phase space of proteins comprised of a set of 14 distinct amino
acids. Such a large value of Qra would have serious consequences
for biology: if Qra were truly as large as Qmax in the primeval
soup, then essentially all 14-acid proteins must have possessed
the ability to perform each of the fundamental tasks in the cell.
That is, there was no task specificity among the proteins: a
protein which was able (say) to maintain the membrane in a cell
would also have been able to control (say) the replication
process.
In such a situation, the very concept of a cell, as a wellorganized
factory in which the task of each department is
regulated, and each department must coordinate dependably with all
2
others, would no longer be valid. A cell would quickly be reduced
to an unpredictable entity which lacked robust properties.
In the “real world”, where a cell must be able to preserve itself
and replicate faithfully from generation to generation, it seems
inevitable that the various proteins must be prevented (by nature)
from performing multiple tasks. That is, there must be a certain
amount of specificity to the task that any given protein can
perform: of all available proteins, only a fraction F should be
capable of performing the task of (say) membrane repair. In a cell
where the number of proteins is Np, the restraints of specificity
require that the value of F can certainly not exceed 1/Np. But F
might be much smaller than this upper limit. This leads us to
introduce a “protein specificity index” m such that the actual
value of F in the primeval soup is usefully written as (1/Np)m. In
the modern world, the value of m ranges from 1 to a maximum value
between about 10 and 20.
We find that, even assigning the minimum possible specificity (m =
1), the probability Pr of assembling the RNA of a (12-14) cell by
random processes in 1.11 billion years using triplet codons is no
more than one in 1079. And if the protein tasks are even marginally
specific (with m = 2-3, say), the chances of random assembly of
RNA for the first cell decreases to less than one in 10100.
In order to improve the chances of random assembly of the first
cell, we consider a situation which might have existed in the
young Earth. We suppose that proteins could be constructed using a
smaller set (numbering Naa) of distinct amino acids: we consider
the case of Naa = 5 (instead of the modern 20). If, in these
conditions, the number of bases in DNA remained as large as 4,
then doublet codons sufficed to encode protein production with the
same amount of error protection as occurs in the modern (triplet)
genetic code. In such conditions, the probability of randomly
assembling the RNA for the first cell in 1.11 b.y. improves.
However, it is still small: the optimal probability is no more
than one in 1063.
To improve the probability even further, it is tempting to
consider the possibility of singlet codons. But we point out that
these are not relevant in a realistic biology.
In the context of doublet codons, we can improve the probability Pr
of random assembly by considering a larger set of distinct amino
acids. The number of distinct amino acids for which doublet-codons
can encode ranges from 5 to 14 (allowing for start and stop
codons). As Naa increases above 5, there is a marked improvement in
3
Pr for a (12-14) cell: in fact, Pr may approach a value of order
unity when Naa = 11 provided that the specificity index m is
smaller than 1.3. (This is far below the average value of m, and
represents very marginal specificity.) And Pr formally exceeds
unity for Naa in the range from 12 to 14, provided that m does not
exceed 2.5. This value of specificity is still well below the
average value. It is not clear that a functioning cell could
survive for long with such low protein specificities.
Nevertheless, the fact that Pr formally reaches a value as large as
unity suggests that we may have found a window of opportunity for
random assembly of the first (12-14) cell.
However, these cells face a potentially fatal problem: even with
11 amino acids to be encoded by 16 codons in the RNA, there is
little redundancy in the genetic code. And for Naa = 14, the
redundancy vanishes altogether. As a result, there is a much
reduced error protection in the code which translates the
information in RNA to proteins. In the limit Naa = 14, there is no
error protection at all: transcription from RNA to protein then
has no immunity against noise. Moreover, in the limit Naa = 14
(plus a start and stop), proteins would be equally able to encode
for RNA, in violation of the Central Dogma of biology. Therefore,
although the probability of randomly assembling the RNA for a (12-
14) cell in such a world may approach unity in a mathematical
sense, it is not clear how useful such a cell would be for
biology.
We stress that our assumptions about a (12-14) cell are minimalist
in the extreme. In the “real world”, it is not obvious that a
protein containing only 14 peptides will be able to fold into a
stable 3-dimensional shape at the temperatures where water is
liquid. And in the “real world”, a cell probably requires as many
as 250 proteins to function. In such case, even if Naa = 14, Pr
approaches unity only if the specificity index m lies in the very
restricted range between 1.0 and 1.17. We identify this as a
narrow window of opportunity for random assembly of primitive
cells. But even this narrow window closes altogether if our
estimate of the number of chemical reactions is too large by
several orders of magnitude (as it may well be).
Our calculations refer only to the assembling of a cell in which
the genetic code is already at work. We do not address the origin
of the genetic code itself.
We conclude that, even if we assume that the genetic code was
already in existence (by some unspecified mechanism), conditions
in the early Earth must have been “finely tuned” in order to
4
“squeeze through” the narrow window of opportunity and assemble
the first cell on Earth in a truly random manner.

1. Introduction
Evolution theory claims that all species of animals and plants
that now exist on Earth came into existence as a result of random
variations in pre-existing species. It is presumed that life on
Earth began as a single cell. An essential aspect of evolution
theory is that the first living cell originated in the early Earth
also as a result of random processes.
When Darwin proposed his theory of evolution, he did not know the
chemical make-up of a cell. Therefore, when he appealed to random
processes at work in nature, he could be excused for not knowing
what exactly was entailed in such processes. But in our day and
age, advances in microbiology and biochemistry have opened up to
us the molecular details of the processes that occur in living
cells. For example, we now know the make-up of proteins and DNA.
In fact, we will need to describe these in some detail in order to
proceed with our discussion of the probability of random
formation. (We will return to these details below.)
We are now in a position to spell out the chemical processes that
must have occurred if the first cell was indeed put together by
chance.
2. The challenge of creating the first cell
The question we wish to examine here is the following. If the
process of assembling the first cell occurred in a truly random
manner in the early Earth, what conditions would be needed?
To address this question, we need to answer two more basic
questions: (a) how much time was available before the first cell
appeared? And (b) how many chemical reactions of the correct type
could have occurred in the time available? The aim here is to
answer these questions as quantitatively as possible.
The answer to question (b) will set a limit on the properties of
the first cell that would have been created by random processes in
the early Earth.
We turn first to the question of how much time was available for
the development of the first living cell.

5

3. The earliest life forms on Earth
The fossil record indicates that the first life forms to appear on
Earth existed some 3.45 billion years ago. These are cyanobacteria
(formerly called blue-green algae) which are found in rocks from
Apex Chert, Australia. ). The first life forms on Earth were
single-cell organisms. (See http://www.unimuenster.
de/GeoPalaeontologie/Palaeo/Palbot/seite1.html
It is hardly surprising from an evolutionary standpoint that the
earliest forms of life on Earth were single-cell organisms.
Presumably it is easier for random processes to give rise to a
single cell first, before bringing forth a multi-cell organism.
4. How much time elapsed before the first cell appeared on Earth?

The age of the Earth, based on radioactive dating of rocks, is
estimated to be 4.56 billion years old. Comparing this with the
cyanobacteria ages, we see that the first living cells appeared
within a time interval of 1.11 billion years of the formation of
the Earth.
Therefore, the time tfc required for the development of the first
cell on the Earth is certainly no longer than 1.11 billion years.
Actually, the value of tfc might be much shorter than this.
Astronomers who calculate the internal structure of the Sun find
that the Sun has not always been as luminous as it is today: the
young Sun is calculated to have had a luminosity that is some 20-
30 percent fainter than it is today. Therefore, the mean
temperature on the early Earth might have been considerably colder
than it is today, so cold that the water on Earth’s surface was
frozen. (This is the “faint young Sun problem”: Sagan and Mullen,
1972, Science vol. 177, 52).
It is likely that the development of life requires water to be in
liquid form. The solar structure calculations suggest that the
energy provided by the Sun to the Earth might not have become
sufficient to melt the ice until the Sun was about 700 hundred
million years old. This means that the first living cell appeared
no more than about 400 million years after liquid water became
available.
Moreover, the early Earth would have been subject to a more or
less heavy bombardment by the debris of the proto-planetary disk
6
before the latter was finally cleared out. The impacts of
planetesimals (such as that which destroyed the dinosaurs some 60
Myr ago) would have interrupted the processes which were “trying
to form” the first cell. Large impacts might have reduced the
interval for assembling the first cell to even less than 400
million years.
However, in order to improve the chances of evolution, let us
grant a full 1.11 billion years and ask the question: could the
first cell have developed by random processes in 1.11 billion
years?
The number of seconds of time in 1.11 billion years is 3.5X1016. We
will need this number in what follows.

5. Some essential constituents of cells
Now that we know how much time is available, we move on to the
main question that we wish to address: how was the first living
cell formed? Evolution theory asserts that it was formed by random
processes. We wish to assess the probability of such processes.
To assess realistically the chances of assembling the first cell
by chance, we need to know certain fundamental properties of the
components that go to make up a cell. Let us first summarize
these.
5.1. What do we need to know about proteins?

There are three levels of structure within a protein which are
relevant to us here.
(a) Primary Structure

A protein consists of a series of amino acids that are linked (by
peptide bonds) into a chain in a specific order. The change of
even a single amino acid in a chain of dozens or hundreds of amino
acids may in certain cases disrupt the functioning of the protein.
(b) Secondary structure
In order that proteins may function, the primary structure (i.e. a
chain of amino acids) is not sufficient. Certain segments of the
amino acids in the chain group themselves together into sub-units
known as alpha-helixes, beta-sheets, and beta-turns. For example,
7
an alpha-helix consists of a chain of consecutive amino acids
arranged in a twisted three-dimensional structure (including 3.6
acids per turn of the helix) with well-defined angles between
neighboring acids in the chain.
These well-defined sub-units form the secondary structure of the
protein: they are stable and rigid, like “lego” blocks which can
be “fitted together” into a larger structure.
(c) Tertiary structure
Once the “lego” blocks are available, the stage is set for the
protein to go beyond the secondary structure: using available
thermal energy, the protein twists and folds itself into a certain
3-dimensional structure with specific bumps and hollows. These
bumps and hollows, which are referred to as the tertiary structure
of the protein, determine where electric charge builds up, and
these localized charges control the protein’s function, including
the reactions that it can catalyze (if it is an enzyme). For
example, insulin (one of the shortest proteins in the human body,
with 51 amino acids) folds itself naturally into a wedge-like
shape which enables groups of six insulin molecules to pack
themselves tightly into spherical clusters.
The sequence of amino acids in a particular protein may be highly
specific at certain locations. There are certain sites in the
protein (“invariant sites”) where even a single alteration in the
sequence can lead to drastic changes in the shape of the folded
protein, thereby disabling the protein. For example, human
hemoglobin, the protein that carries oxygen through the blood,
contains Na = 574 amino acids arranged in four secondary sub-units,
with an overall spherical tertiary structure. Two of the invariant
sites in hemoglobin have attracted widespread attention because of
the drastic consequences they may have in a certain segment of the
population. If one of the amino acids (glutamic acid) in a certain
position in two of the sub-units of the hemoglobin molecule is
replaced by another amino acid (valine), the result is the painful
and deadly disease known as sickle cell anemia. Although it would
seem that switching only 2 out of 574 amino acids ought to have an
insignificant effect, this is not the case for these two
particular sites. Just by changing 2 amino acids and leaving all
the remaining 572 as before, the process of folding the molecule
is altered so much that the 3-dimensional shape of the hemoglobin
changes is no longer spherical. Instead the molecule takes on an
elongated structure resembling a sickle.
8
There are some proteins in which essentially all sites are
invariant. For example, histones which have at least 125 amino
acids in the peptide chain, have 122 invariant sites. Such
proteins are therefore exceedingly specific in the arrangement of
amino acids.
However, not all sites in all proteins are invariant. In many
proteins, there are sites where the amino acid can be replaced by
a number of other amino acids without affecting the functioning of
the protein. Yockey (Information Theory and Molecular Biology,
1992, Cambridge Univ. press, 408 pp; Table 6.3) discusses the
example of a particular protein (iso-1-cytochrome c, with 110
amino acids), with a list of all amino acids which are
functionally equivalent at each site. Some sites can have up to 13
different amino acids and still the protein retains functionality,
whereas others (the invariant sites) must contain one and only
particular amino acid in order to protect against protein
dysfunction.
At the primary level, the linear sequence of amino acids in a
protein is important to the proper operation of a living cell. But
in order to reach the final operating stage (which is fully threedimensional),
the creation of the “lego” blocks (i.e. stable and
reproducible secondary structure) is an essential intermediate
stage.
(d) How long are the secondary structures?
A central question in the present context is: what is the minimum
requirement for the “lego” blocks to be formed? What does it take
to be able to create the rigid sub-units which are used in making
the final protein? The answer is found in the quantum chemistry of
an alpha-helix and a beta-sheet: in principle, a sequence of at
least 4 amino acids is required in order to make the smallest
alpha helix (this allows for one complete turn of the helix). The
minimum size of a beta-sheet may be comparable.
However, the minimum size is not the only factor that is at work
in creating the “lego” blocks in proteins: the question of
stability also enters, because it is a fundamental requirement for
living cells that the secondary structures must be rigid.
Otherwise, the shapes of proteins in a cell would be subject to
chaotic fluctuations. Studies of reproducible structure of subsequences
in proteins suggests that chains of at least 7 amino
9
acids are required in order to create a stable and reproducible
“lego” (Sudarsanam and Srinivasan, 1996, abstract E0274, IUCR
Seattle meeting). It therefore seems unlikely that stable “lego”
blocks can be constructed with a chain that is less than 7 amino
acids long.
Now, the tertiary structure of a protein comes into existence only
if at least two stable “lego” blocks are joined together in a
reproducible 3-dimensional structure. (Many proteins require more
than 2 secondary structures: e.g. hemoglobin contains 4.) Thus,
the bare minimum requirement for a protein is that Na should be at
least twice the bare minimum needed for rigid and stable secondary
structure. According to the estimates of Sudarsanam and
Sreenivasan, this requires Na = Nmin = 14.
We emphasize that this assumption of a mere 14 amino acids in a
functioning protein is extreme. A protein with only 14 amino acids
is very short in terms of the proteins that exist either in the
modern world (e.g. insulin, with its 51 amino acids, and
hemoglobin, with its 574 amino acids), or even in ancient
proteins. For example, bacterial ferrodoxins, with at last 56
amino acids, “are believed to date nearly to the time of the
origin of life, and the histones which are also believed to be
ancient and have at least 125 amino acids” (Yockey, p. 143). Even
in the earliest stages of life on the planet, before the so-called
“breakthrough organism” had appeared, the proteins that might have
been operational back then have earned the title of “miniproteins
” because the number of amino acids they contained was
“perhaps 20 or shorter” (Maniloff, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA,
vol. 93, p. 10004, 1996).
Computational attempts to “construct” proteins which are capable
of folding into a certain unique and stable tertiary structure
have been made by several groups. Dahiyat and Mayo (Science vol.
278, p. 82, 1997) found that, using only amino acids which occur
in modern nature, the shortest protein without sulfides or metals
that folds into a stable tertiary structure contains 25 amino
acids. An earlier computation (Struthers et al., Science vol. 271,
p. 342, 1996) had obtained a stable tertiary structure with a
chain of only 23 amino acids: however, one of the 23 was a nonnatural
amino acid. It seems that polypeptide chains with fewer
than 23-25 amino acids can probably not create the tertiary
structure which is key to protein function unless they are
assisted by sulfides or metals.
How far below the 23-25 limit can a functional protein go when
assisted by sulfides and metals? The answer is not clear. However,
10
it seems unlikely that the limit will be reduced below 14, which
is our limit based on the stability properties of at least two
“lego” pieces (alpha-helices and beta-sheets). In fact, in terms
of the thermal energy which is available, it is not clear that a
protein as short as 14 amino acids will be “foldable” or
“bendable” at temperatures where water is liquid.
Nevertheless, in the spirit of optimizing probabilities, we assume
that polypeptides in the primeval soup could indeed function as
proteins while containing no more than 14 amino acids.
5.2. What do we need to know about DNA?
DNA is a molecule that has the shape of a long twisted ladder (the
"double helix"). In this ladder, there are "rungs" connecting the
long "sidepieces". The "sidepieces" are long linear chains of
sugars and phosphates, while each "rung" is composed of two
interlocking bases. The four bases consist of two purines and two
pyrimidines. The bases in the ladder are arranged in a definite
order, just as amino acids are arranged in a definite order in a
protein.
When a cell wishes to reproduce a certain protein, the section (or
"gene") of DNA that is responsible for that protein must undergo a
well-defined process. First, the two bases that are interlocked in
each rung of the ladder in that section must be "unzipped" so as
to expose a sequence of bases. The exposed sequence then creates a
strip of RNA whose task is to assemble amino acids from the cell
medium in the correct order.
The order of the bases along the DNA “ladder” (or along the RNA
strip) is highly specific, just as the order of acids in the
protein is crucial for protein function. The change of even a
single base inside a gene may result in the creation of the wrong
protein, and the organism may die as a result. This indicates the
need for serious error-protection in the process of replication of
a cell.
6. Cell structure: high information content
Even a “simple” cell is a complicated system where chemicals of
various kinds operate in a synergistic way to provide various
functions that are essential to cell viability.
11
The outer wall (or membrane) provides the cell with its own
identity, and separates it from the rest of the world. Apart from
the membrane, i.e. inside the body of the cell itself, there are a
number of sub-systems that must run cooperatively in order to keep
the cell in operation. The most important chemicals are proteins
and the DNA that has the capacity to reproduce those proteins.
Some proteins provide the structural characteristics of the
different components of the cell. Some proteins serve as catalysts
in the various chemical reactions that keep the cell running.
There are also regulatory proteins which ensure that each protein
performs its function only in its proper location within the cell:
it would not do, e.g., to have energy generation occurring in the
cell membrane. In a multi-cell organism, these regulatory proteins
ensure that (e.g.) kidney cells do not grow in (say) the eye.
It is amazing that there is enough information in a linear object
(a DNA strand) to determine a three-dimensional object (a
protein). How is it that the sequence of bases in DNA instructs
the cell to make proteins, each of which is a “sentence” composed
of a specific sequence of various choices from a “vocabulary” of
the 20 (or so) amino acids which occur in modern proteins? (There
are many more amino acids in nature, but they are non-proteinous,
and we do not consider them here.) The beginnings of an answer
were first proposed by Gamow (1954: Nature 173, 318): there exists
a code which translates the information in the bases in DNA into
the amino acids in protein. This was an amazing insight on Gamow’s
part. As Yockey says (p. 4): “The idea…of a code is so
unconventional that had Gamow’s paper been submitted by almost
anyone else, it would most certainly have been rejected”.
The eventual identification of the code at the heart of biology is
a triumph of human ingenuity. The bases in DNA are now known to be
grouped into 64 “code words”, and the sequence of these words
contain the information which is eventually translated into the
20-letter vocabulary of proteinous amino acids.
A more difficult question to answer is: how do the amino acids
“understand” the “language” of the “words of information” that are
contained in the DNA? (For example, a string of letters may mean
one thing to a Frenchman, something else to a German, and nothing
at all to an Englishman.) It is not obvious that an answer has yet
been given to this question. It may in fact be the most difficult
question of all to answer. For example, Yockey (2000: Computers
and Chemistry 24, 105) argues that the answer may simply be beyond
the powers of human reasoning. In the present calculation, we do
not address the issue of the origin of the code. We merely assume
12
that the code is already in existence as a result of unspecified
processes in the early Earth.
Returning to a question about the links between DNA and protein
that can be answered, the distinction between 64 and 20 is
noteworthy and essential for living cells. In terms of coding
theory, the fact that 64 greatly exceeds 20 means that DNA code
has a lot of built-in redundancy: there are more code words (or
symbols) at the source (DNA) than at the destination (protein).
Coding theory proves that this redundancy of source relative to
destination is an essential feature of a code in order to protect
from errors in transmission. One of the theorems of coding theory
(Shannon’s channel capacity theorem) makes a strong statement
which at first sight appears counterintuitive (Yockey, p. 8): even
if there is noise in a message, the proper use of redundancy
allows one to extract the original message “with as small a
probability of error as we please”.
Therefore, if we were to attempt to construct a biological system
based on a code where redundancy is absent (and we shall mention
one such attempt in Section 19 below), the process of cell
replication would inevitably be prone to errors in transmission.
Since even a single error may prove to have mortal consequences
for a protein (and its host organism), it is hard to see how cells
that are subject to serious errors in replication could be
regarded as “living” in any meaningful sense.
The code words in DNA in the modern world consist of a series of
triplets of bases. Each triplet (written as ACG, or UGA, etc,
where each of the letters A, C, G, and U is the initial letter of
one of the 4 bases) encodes for a particular amino acid. There are
64 such triplets available as a source code. (We will consider
below the possibility that triplet codons were not necessary in
the primeval soup, but that doublet codons might have sufficed
then.)
If a cell contains a particular protein that is a chain of Na amino
acids in a certain sequence, then the DNA of that cell contains a
corresponding segment containing 3Na bases also arranged in a
sequence that exactly parallels the Na acids in the protein.
However, this is not all that is required for a gene. Since the
DNA consists of a long chain of bases, we need to ask: how does
the RNA know where to start “reading” the code for a particular
protein? The answer is: in the DNA itself, associated with each
gene, there must be a “start code” and a “stop code”. In fact, a
triplet of bases serves to encode START and another triplet to
13
encode STOP. (E.g., in modern cells, the triplet AUG encodes for
start, while stop has three possible codons: UAA, UAG, UGA.).
Therefore, although a strip of RNA needs to have 3Na bases in a
particular order, the gene (i.e. the corresponding piece of the
DNA) must have 3Na+6 bases in a particular order.
As an example, we note that among the shortest proteins that exist
in human beings, insulin contains 51 amino acids in a particular
order. Such a protein requires a sequence of 153 bases in human
DNA in a specific order, plus 6 bases for start and stop.

7. What does a cell need in order to function?
To determine the probability that the first cell was assembled
randomly, we first need to answer the following general question:
what is required in order to make a functional living cell?
In other words, what is the bare minimum number of proteins for a
cell to function at all? If we can answer this, it should help us
determine what the very first cell might have looked like.
As a first step in answering this, it is worthwhile to consider
the simplest known cell that exists in the world today. This is an
organism called "Mycoplasma genitalium" (MG) whose genetic
information is many times smaller than the information in the
human genome: the number of genes required for the functioning of
MG in its natural state is only 517. (Humans have tens of
thousands of genes.)
Recently, researchers have raised the interesting issue: are all
517 of these genes really necessary for MG to function properly?
The answer is No. By removing genes one at a time, researchers
have been able to show that the cell continues to function with
fewer than the total complement of 517. By eliminating more and
more of the genes, it has emerged that MG continues to function
normally as long as there are between 265 and 350 protein-coding
genes (see Hutchison et al., Science vol. 286, p. 2165, 1999). An
earlier estimate of the minimum cell size in nature had suggested
that the minimum number of proteins for cell operation might
indeed be about 250 (J. Maniloff, Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. USA Vol.
93, p, 10004, 1996).
It appears, then, that the simplest cell in the modern world
requires at least 250 proteins in order to survive in viable form.
Many of the 250 (or so) essential proteins in MG have identifiable
14
functions. Hutchison et al. list 13 categories of identified
functions in the MG genome: (1) cell envelope, (2) cellular
processes, (3) central intermediary metabolism, (4) co-factors and
carriers, (5) DNA metabolism, (6) energy metabolism, (7) fatty
acid metabolism, (8) nucleotides, (9) protein fate, (10) protein
synthesis, (11) regulatory functions, (12) transport/binding
proteins, and (13) transcription. Each of these 13 categories
contains multiple genes, so that (e.g.) protein synthesis does not
depend solely on a single protein for its operation: there are
backups and multiple redundancies in each category. For example,
some 19 proteins are used for membrane maintenance (category (1)).
About 150 of the MG proteins can be assigned with some confidence
to one of the 13 categories.
However, more than 100 of the MG genes perform functions that are
currently unidentified. Nevertheless, the cell certainly requires
them: without them, there is empirical proof that the cell fails
to function.
8. The first cells to appear on Earth: reducing the requirements
to an absolute minimum
It might be argued that the first cells to appear on Earth were
smaller than the simplest cells (such as MG) that exist in the
world today. Those primitive cells might have been able to operate
with many fewer proteins than the 265 needed by MG.
Although we will use this argument below, it is actually difficult
to substantiate. The mathematician John Von Neumann estimated the
bare necessities which are necessary in order to construct what he
referred to as “a self-replicating machine” (Theory of Self-
Reproducing Automata: Univ. of Illinois press, 1966). It has been
a popular exercise among science fiction writers to use this idea
in connection with how a civilization might colonize a galaxy by
sending out machines. Von Neumann concluded that the number of
parts in one such machine must be in the millions. Other authors
have reduced this estimate somewhat, but even according to the
most optimistic estimate, the numbers remain very large: the best
estimates suggest that there must be between 105 and 106 parts in a
self-replicating machine. This means that the genome needs at
least 105 bits in order to metabolize and replicate (Yockey, p.
334). Using the information content in a typical modern protein,
Yockey concludes that the original genome must have been able to
specify at least 267 proteins. The fact that this is close to the
minimum number required for a modern cell (such as MG) suggests
that one is not necessarily permitted to assume that the original
15
cell contained significantly fewer proteins than the smallest
modern cell.
Nevertheless, other authors have argued that the Von Neumann
approach is overly restrictive. E.g., Niesert (1987, origins of
Life 17, 155)) estimates that the first cell might have been able
to operate with as few as 300-400 amino acids.
Which of these various estimates of minimum requirements for the
first cell should we consider? There must be some absolute minimum
requirements for making even the simplest cell. For example, one
might argue that, among the 12 non-regulatory categories of gene
functions listed by Hutchison et al., one representative protein
should be present in the first cell. And each of these 12 proteins
should have an accompanying protein to serve in a regulatory role.
This line of reasoning would suggest that 24 proteins are a
minimum for cell operation.
Can we reduce this to an even barer minimum? Examples of minimum
cell requirements have been summarized by the paleontologist
George Gaylord Simpson. Of the 13 categories listed by Hutchison
et al, Simpson narrows down the bare minimum to the following: (i)
energy generation, (ii) storing information; (iii) replicating
information; (iv) an enclosure to prevent dispersal of the
interacting sub-structures; (v) digestion of food; (vi) waste
product ejection (Science vol. 143, p. 771, 1964).
In view of these bare-bones requirements, it is hard to imagine
how any cell could function without at least the following six
types of proteins: (i) those that help to digest food, (ii) those
that generate energy for cell operations, (iii) those that carry
away waste products, (iv) those that preserve and repair the cell
membrane, (v) those that determine when reproduction is to occur,
and (vi) those which actually catalyze the tasks of reproduction.
Corresponding to each of these six, there must be a regulatory
protein which ensures that the corresponding protein does not
“express itself” in the wrong location in the cell.
It is hard to imagine how a living cell would exist at all if it
failed to contain at least these 12 proteins.
The fact that the simplest cell in the modern world (MG) requires
265 proteins as a bare minimum in order to function makes our
estimate of 12 proteins look ridiculously small. But since it is
possible that the first living cells may have been much simpler
than those we find in the world today, let us make the (perhaps
16
absurdly reductionist) assumption that the first cells in fact
were able to operate on the basis of the bare minimum 12 proteins.
As an illustration of how reductionist our assumption is, we note
that in the first cell, we are assuming that a single protein is
responsible for ensuring proper functioning of the lipid membrane
of that cell. In contrast, the smallest known cell in the modern
world (MG) uses 19 genes to encode for lipoproteins (Hutchison et
al. Science vol. 286, p. 2166). The use of 19 genes in the modern
cell is an example of the large amount of redundancy that nature
uses to ensure that the membrane survives. But the first cell may
not have had the luxury of redundancy: it may have been forced to
survive using only one gene for its membrane. It would have been a
precarious existence.
We have argued that each protein must contain at least 14 amino
acids: thus our bare minimum cell, with 12 proteins and 14 amino
acids in each, contains 168 amino acids. This is even smaller than
the bare minimum of 300-400 amino acids described by Niesert
(1987, Origins of Life, 17, 155). The DNA of our minimal (12-14)
cell would contain only about 500 bases. This is 10 times shorter
than the genome of a certain virus (PHI-X 174) which transmits 9
proteins. It is widely believed that a virus cannot be regarded as
a “living cell” (it has no self-contained replication system), so
this again indicates the extreme nature of our assumption that the
first cell could have as few as 12 proteins. But let us proceed in
the spirit of optimizing the probability that the first cell
appeared by chance.
8.1. The first cell: putting the proteins together by chance
In the early Earth, the commonest concept of conditions back then
is that the primeval "soup" consisted of various chemicals that
were stirred up and forced into contact with one another as a
result of the forces of nature (including rain, ocean currents,
lightning). Simple chemical reactions in the soup were easily able
to create amino acids: these molecules are so small (containing no
more than 10-30 atoms each) that random processes can put them
together quickly from the abundant C, O, N, and H atoms in the
soup. As a result, we expect to find in the primeval soup, in
abundant supply, all of the 22 amino acids that occur in modern
life forms. (For the number 22, see Nature vol. 417, 478, 2002).
In fact, there are more than 100 amino acids in modern nature, but
only 22 are used in proteins. And of those 22, numbers 21 and 22
are rare. Most living material relies on only 20 of these amino
acids, and we will use that number here.
17
To be sure, the “primeval soup” hypothesis is not without its
opponents (e.g. Yockey, pp. 235-241). Laboratory experiments which
claim to replicate conditions in the primeval Earth generate not
only amino acids but also a tarry substance (as the principal
product). This substance should have survived as a non-biological
kerogen in ancient sedimentary rocks, but no evidence for this has
been found. It should not be surprising that, in the primeval
soup, other amino acids, not currently used in life forms, could
have been formed. (This would include the acids that are used in
nylon.) And each of the amino acids which are created randomly in
the primeval soup would be created in two forms: the D-variety and
the L-variety. (These varieties refer to the ability of the
molecule to rotate the polarization of light either right or left:
this ability depends on the chirality of the molecule, i.e. on the
handedness of its 3-dimensional structure.) For reasons that are
not yet obvious, only one of these varieties (the L-variety) is
actually used in present-day life forms. However, the basic
property of amino acids, that they polymerize, operates only
between L alone or D alone: when an L and a D amino acid combine,
their opposite chirality has the effect of locking out any
possibility of further polymerization.
Another difficulty of a very different nature has to do with
reactions in an aqueous solution. The very process of assembling
amino acids into a polypeptide chain (so as to make a protein)
requires the removal of H from the amino radical and the removal
of OH from the acid radical: it is not obvious how these
constituents of a water molecule can be removed in an aqueous
solution.
Despite these difficulties with the primeval soup hypothesis, the
idea of the soup is so widespread in textbooks that it is a
natural starting point for an optimized estimate of probabilities.
In the spirit of the present approach (where we do whatever we can
to optimize the chances of assembling the first cell randomly), we
will simply go along with the textbooks. We shall assume that the
formation of the first cell in the early Earth began in liquid
water where only 20 L-amino acids need to be taken into account.
Other simple chemical reactions in the soup also give rise more or
less quickly to the four bases (two purines and two pyrimidines)
that form the "rungs" of DNA. Why are these formed relatively
readily? Because each base consists on no more than 13-16 atoms,
random processes can also assemble these bases rapidly from the
abundant C, O, N, and H atoms. It was probably more difficult to
form pyrimidines than purines, but the principle is robust:
18
formation of small molecules is essentially inevitable in the
early Earth.
In order for the first cell to come into existence, at least 12
proteins, each with Na amino acids in a specific order, had to
emerge in the same patch of the "primeval soup". To be sure,
individual proteins were probably emerging at random at many
places around the world. But if our aim is to form a complete
living cell, it will not help if the membrane protein emerged (at
random) in China, the energy protein in Russia, and the
replication protein in South America. That will not do: the only
way to have the first cell develop is if all 12 proteins emerge in
close enough proximity to one another to be contained within a
single membrane.
How might this have happened in random processes? By way of
example, let us consider one particular protein, in which the
chain of amino acids happens to be denoted by the series of
letters ABCDEFGHIJKLMN. In order that this protein be made by
chance, amino acid E (say) (one of the 20 commonest in nature)
might have started off by entering into a chemical reaction with
amino acid F (another of the 20), such that the two found it
possible to become connected by a peptide bond. Then amino acid D
might have had a chemical reaction so as to join onto the EF pair
at the left end, forming DEF by means of a new peptide bond. Note
that it is important to form DEF rather than EFD, which would be a
very different protein. This process presumably continued until
the entire 14-unit protein chain ABCDEFGHIJKLMN was complete.
8.2. The first cell: putting the DNA/RNA together by chance
It is not enough to assemble 12 proteins to have a functional
living cell: the cell must be able to reproduce, and for that
the cell needs DNA (or at least RNA). In order to ensure
reproduction of the cell, there had to be (also in the same patch
of the primeval soup) at least 12 genes on an RNA strand, each
containing 3Na+6 bases in a specific order.
Thus, in the very same patch of "soup" where the protein
ABCDEFGHIJ formed by chance, a strand of RNA must have been formed
where the three bases that encode for amino acid A were joined in
a specific order along the RNA strip by a series of chemical
reactions. Then the three bases that encode for amino acid B had
to be added in a specific order to the sidepieces, right next to
the three bases that encode for A. This process must have
continued until the triplets of bases that encode for each of C,
D, E, F, G, H, I, J, K, L, M, and N respectively were assembled in
19
a specific order into a chain of 30 bases. There would also be one
triplet at each end of the 30-base sequence to serve as markers
for start and stop. This 36-base sequence would then form the gene
for the first protein in the first cell.
Now that we know how the first proteins and RNA/DNA were put
together, we are in a position to estimate the probability that
this will occur by random processes.
9. Probability of protein formation at random
In the example given above, we recall that amino acid (say) E is
only one of 20 amino acids that exist in living matter. Amino acid
F is also one of 20. Therefore, a process that successfully forms
the sequence EF at random out of a soup where all amino acids are
present in equal abundances, has a probability p2 which is roughly
equal to (1/20) times (1/20) = 1/400.
Actually, however, pre-living matter contains not only the Lvariety
of each amino acid, but also the D-variety. Therefore, a
better estimate of the probability p2 that the correct pair of Lamino
acids be formed is (1/40) times (1/40), i.e. p2 = 1/1600.
However, once an L-acid unites with a D-acid, the opposite nature
of their chiralities leads to a “lock-out”: no further
polymerization is possible. So we will optimize probability by
assuming that only the L-variety is present. We therefore take p2 =
1/400.
Another way to state this result is that if we wish to create the
combination EF (both L-variety) by chance, the number of chemical
reactions that must first occur between amino acids in the
primeval soup is about 1/p2, or about 400. That is, if we allow so
much time to elapse that 400 reactions can occur in the primeval
soup, then there is a high probability (close to a certainty) that
the combination EF will appear simply at random.
This argument assumes that the only amino acids in the primeval
soup are the 20 which occur in modern living organism. However,
there were certainly other non-biological amino acids available.
As a result, many more than 400 reactions was almost certainly
required before the combination EF appeared at random. However, we
will optimize the chances for random assembly of the first cell by
ignoring the non-biological amino acids.
After creating EF by random processes, the next step is to have
the next amino acid to join the chain be the L-variety of (say) G,
i.e. only 1 out of the 20 types available. Then the probability
20
that the three amino acids EFG will be assembled in the correct
order is about (1/20)3.
Continuing this all the way through a sequence of Na amino acids
in a protein, the chance f1 of correctly picking (at random) all
the necessary amino acids to create one particular protein is
roughly equal to (1/20) raised to the power Na. This corresponds to
f1 = (1/10)x where x = 1.3Na. Actually, to the extent that some
amino acids may be replaced by others without affecting the
functionality of the protein, the above expression for f1 is a
lower limit. (We will allow for this later in this section.)
Yockey (p. 73) shows that instead of 20N for the value of 1/f1, a
more accurate estimate is 2NH where H is the mean value of a
quantity known as the Shannon entropy of the 20-acid set (see
below). In the limit where all amino acids have equal probability
of being encoded, and are equally probable at all sites in the
protein, 2NH turns out (from the definition of H) to be equal to
20N . In all other cases, 2NH is less than 20N. This returns us to
the previous conclusion: the above expression for f1 is a lower
limit on the true value.
Suppose that the particular protein with probability f1 has been
formed in a particular patch of the primeval soup. Then in order
to form a single cell (with at least 12 proteins as a bare minimum
to function), eleven more proteins must also be formed in the same
patch of soup, in close enough proximity to one another to be
contained within a single membrane. Each of these proteins also
has a certain number of amino acids: for simplicity let us assume
that all have length Na.
The overall probability f12 that all twelve proteins arise as a
result of random processes is the product of the probability for
the twelve separate proteins. That is, f12 is roughly equal to f112,
i.e. f12 is roughly (1/10)y where y = 15.6Na.
We can now quantify the claim that the first cell was assembled by
random processes. If the first cell consisted of only the bare
minimum 12 proteins, and if each of these proteins was uniquely
suited to its own task, the probability that these particular 12
proteins will be formed by random processes in a given patch of
primeval soup is f12.
Now let us turn to the fact that a protein may remain functional
even if a certain amino acid is replaced with another one.
(Obviously, we are not referring to invariant sites here.) For
example, it may be that the protein which we have specified as the
one that is responsible for (say) energy generation in the cell is
21
not unique. There may exist other groupings of amino acids which
also have the shape and properties that enable the task of energy
production for the cell. Maybe the others are not as efficient as
the first one, but let us suppose that they have enough efficiency
to be considered as possible candidates for energy production in
the first cell. Then we need to ask: how many energy-producing
proteins might there be in the primeval soup?
It is difficult to tell: in principle, if Na has the value 14
(say), then one could examine the molecular structure of all 14-
amino acid proteins (of which there are some 2014 , i.e. 1018.2 if
all amino acids are equally probable) and identify which ones
would be suitable for performing the energy task. Presumably there
must be some specificity to the task of energy production:
otherwise, a protein which is supposed to perform the task of
(say) waste removal might suddenly start to perform the task of
(say) membrane production in the wrong part of the cell.
Therefore, it is essential for stable life-forms that not all
available proteins can perform all of the individual tasks.
Suppose the number of alternate energy-producers Q is written as
10q. In a world where all proteins have Na = 14, the absolute
maximum value that q can have is qmax = 18.2. This is the total
number of discrete locations in the “14-amino acid phase space”.
In the real world, a more realistic estimate of qmax would be
smaller than the above estimate. First, not all amino acids have
equal probability of being encoded: there are more codons in the
modern genetic code for some amino acids than for others. (E.g.,
Leu, Val, and Ser have 6 codons each, whereas 10 others have only
2 codons each.) When these are allowed for in the probability
distribution, it is found that the “effective number” of amino
acids in the modern world is not 20 but 17.621 (Yockey, p. 258).
Thus, with Na = 14, a more accurate estimate of qmax(eff) is 17.4
(rather than 18.2).
As a result, in the real world, qmax(eff) may be considerably
smaller than 18.2. However, in the spirit of optimizing
probabilities, let us continue to use the value 18.2.
The requirement that some specificity of task persists among
proteins requires that the value of q must certainly not exceed
qmax. At the other extreme, in a situation where each protein is
uniquely specified, q would have the value qmin = 0 (so that one
and only one protein could perform the task of energy production).
22
Now we can see that our estimate of f12 needs to be altered. We
were too pessimistic in estimating f12 above. Each factor f1 needs
to be multiplied by 10q. For simplicity, let us assume that q has
the same value for each of the 12 proteins in the cell. Then the
revised value of f12 is 1/10z where
z = 15.6Na - 12q . (eq. 1)
This result applies to a cell with 12 proteins, each composed of
amino acids chosen from a set of 20 distinct entries.
10. Random formation of DNA/RNA

The first cell could NOT have functioned if it consisted only of
proteins. In order to merit the description living, the cell must
also have had the ability to reproduce. That is, it must also have
had the correct DNA to allow all 12 proteins to be reproduced by
the cell.
In order to estimate the probability of assembling a piece of DNA
by random processes, we can follow the same argument as for
proteins, except that now we must pick from the available set of 4
bases.
Repeating the arguments given above, we see that for each protein
which contains Na amino acids in a certain sequence (plus one start
and one stop), there must exist in the DNA a strip of B = 3Na+6
bases in a corresponding sequence. If we pick bases at random from
a set of 4 possibilities, the probability of selecting the correct
sequence for a particular protein is (1/4)B. Therefore, the
probability of selecting the correct sequences for all twelve
proteins, if each protein is unique, is (1/4)D where D = 36Na + 72.
Writing this with the symbol fRNA, we see that fRNA is equal to
(1/10)E where
E = 21.7Na + 43.3. (eq. 2)
Again, however, if instead of unique proteins for each task, there
are 10q proteins available to perform each task in the cell, then
we must increase the above value of fRNA to 10-G where
G = 21.7Na + 43.3 - 12q. (eq. 3)

23
11. Probability of random formation of a complete cell
Since both the RNA and all 12 proteins have to be formed in the
same patch of primeval soup in order to form a viable cell, the
probability fcell that random processes will perform both tasks in
the same patch of soup will be the combination of the separate
probabilities. That is, fcell is roughly equal to fp X fRNA, i.e.
about 10-J where
J = 37.3Na + 43.3 - 24q. (eq. 4)
Therefore, once enough time elapsed in the primeval soup to
allow the chemicals there to undergo a certain number of
reactions, R12p = 1/fcell, there would be a high probability (in
fact, a near certainty) that the proteins and the requisite DNA
for a (12-14) cell could indeed have been assembled by chance in
the primeval soup.
In order to optimize the chances of forming the first cell, we
ask: is it possible to find ways to make R12p smaller than the
above estimate? The answer depends on the theory that one adopts
for the development of the first cell.
Suppose one were to theorize that the only thing one would have to
provide to get the first cell going was the RNA containing the
genetic code for the 12 proteins. (It might be beneficial if the
RNA could catalyze its own replication: however, this is not
altogether desirable, since it leads to possibilities of ‘‘errorcatastrophes
” [Niesert et al. 1987, J. Mol. Evol., 17, 348].)
According to the "RNA-first theory", one would not have to "wait
around" for proteins to be constructed by random reactions in the
primeval soup. Instead, once strips of RNA were formed (as a
result of random processes), DNA could be assembled from the RNA
strips. At that point, proteins should be reproduced more or less
automatically, apart from the necessity of certain enzymes
(proteins) to catalyze the "unzipping" of the DNA itself, and to
catalyze the collection and assemblage of the amino acids.
In order to optimize the chances of cell formation at random, let
us assume that the unzipping can be done with the help of a single
protein, and that the collection and assemblage of amino acids can
also be done with a single protein. (This is a far cry from the
modern world, where multiple proteins exist in even the simplest
cell to perform each task.) Then the first cell will require the
RNA to be assembled by chance (with probability fRNA, as given
above) plus just two proteins (with probability f2) also assembled
24
by chance. If this theory is correct, then R12p(RNA-first) would be
equal to 10K where
K = 24.3Na + 43.3 – 14q. (eq. 5)
This may provide a substantial reduction below the original
estimate of R12p.
Should we also consider the obvious alternative to the RNA-first
theory? That is, should we also consider the “protein-first”
theory? The answer is no, provided that the modern genetic code is
at work. The structure of the modern genetic code is such that,
according to the Central Dogma, proteins do not pass on
information to DNA: the flow of information goes only from DNA (or
RNA) to protein, and not the reverse. As Yockey (2000) puts it,
“The origin of life [as we currently know it] cannot be based on
‘protein-first’.” However, the “protein-first” theory may need to
be considered when we consider a certain “window of opportunity”
in the early Earth (see Section 19).
Because we now know how many reactions are required in order to
create the first simplest possible cell, we are in a position to
test the evolutionary claim that the first cell was assembled
randomly. To do this, we proceed to the crucial question that is
at the heart of the present argument. This question, and its
detailed answer, is the subject of the next section.

12. How many reactions occurred in the primeval soup?

Is random assembly of the first cell possible? To address this, we
need to answer the following question: How many chemical reactions
(of the sort we are interested in) actually occurred in the
primeval soup during the first 1.11 billion years?
We will not be surprised to find that the number of reactions nr
is a "large" number (in some sense). Nevertheless, nr is a finite
number.
Once we obtain nr, we can then estimate how large the value of q
must be in order that the probability of randomly assembling the
first cell of order unity. That is, we will equate nr to 10J (or to
10K, if we accept the "RNA-first theory"), and solve for q,
assuming that Na is at least as large as 14. The value of q which
we obtain from this estimate will be labelled qra to denote that
this is how large q must be in order that random assembly of the
first cell in the primeval soup becomes essentially certain.
25
We are interested in chemical reactions involving amino acids or
bases. To proceed with this discussion, we need to consider in
detail what happens during such a reaction. The most basic
requirement of a chemical reaction is the following: the two
reacting molecules must at the very least come close enough to
each other to have a collision. However, the very fact that two
molecules collide does not guarantee that a reaction will occur.
The reaction is controlled by many factors, e.g. the energy
involved, the angle of the encounter, the removal of by-products,
etc. As a result of these factors, many collisions may occur
before even a single reaction occurs. This explains why it is so
difficult to manufacture (e.g.) nylon: the creation of the peptide
bonds that hold nylon together (exactly equivalent to those which
hold proteins together) requires careful quality control. The
quality control which the DuPont engineers are forced to impose in
order to create nylon was certainly not available in the primeval
soup: therefore, the efficiency of the reactions which led to
peptide bonds (i.e. proteins) in the primeval soup was almost
certainly very small.
In view of this, we can derive an absolutely firm (and probably
very generous) upper limit on the number of two-body reactions n2
that occurred between two amino acids during any time interval by
calculating the number of collisions ncoll that occurred between
those two amino acids during that interval. In practice, n2 is
probably orders of magnitude smaller than ncoll. The purpose of a
catalyst is of course to increase n2 as much as possible: however,
even with a “perfect” catalyst, n2 can never exceed ncoll .
So let us turn to estimating ncoll. This number, which is “large”
but finite, will provide us with a firm piece of quantitative
evidence that will allow us to test the assertion that the first
cell was assembled randomly.

13. Collisions between amino acids in the primeval soup
We begin the calculation of ncoll by estimating the mean time tc
that elapses between successive collisions of molecule A with
molecule B. The general formula for tc is straight-forward. Let us
consider molecule A as the projectile, and molecule B as the
target. If projectile A moves with mean speed v cm/sec through an
ambient medium where there are nt target molecules per cubic
26
centimeter, then tc equals 1/(v nt A) seconds. Here, A is the area
(in square centimeters) presented by the target molecule.
13.1 Mean time interval between collisions
Let us now estimate the three quantities that enter into tc.
First, the area A. Amino acids and bases in nature have linear
dimensions of a few Angstroms (where 1 Angstrom = 10-8 cm).
Therefore, a typical amino acid or base molecule has A equal to
about 10-15 sq. cm.
Second, as regards v, there is a standard formula for the mean
speed of the molecules in a medium at temperature T: v2 = RgT/m
where Rg is the gas constant (= 8.3 X 107 ergs/degree/gram) and m
is the molecular weight. Amino acids and bases have m = 100 or so.
Moreover, living cells require liquid water in order to survive:
this means that T must be in the range 273-373 degrees Kelvin.
Taking an average value for T of about 300 K, we find that v for
the molecules in which we are interested here is about 104 cm/sec.
Even if we consider the extremely hot conditions at the ocean
bottom, near the hot thermal vents, where temperatures may be as
large as 1000 K, this will increase our estimate of v by a factor
of no more than 2. This will have no significant effect on our
conclusions below.
Third, as regards nt, we note that at the present time, the total
mass of living organisms on Earth is Mliving = 3.6 X 1017 grams (see
http://www.ursa.fi/mpi/earth/index.html). In the early Earth,
before the first cell appeared, the mass of living material was by
definition zero. But there were amino acids and bases present in
the primeval soup. So in order to optimize the chances of cell
formation, let us make a second gross assumption: let us assume
that all of the mass that is now in living organisms was already
present in the primeval soup in the form of amino acids (if we
wish to assemble proteins) or bases (if we wish to assemble RNA).
With a molecular weight of about 100, each amino acid (or base)
has a mass maa of about 1.7 10-22 grams. Therefore, the total number
ntotal of amino acids (or bases) in the primeval soup was of order
Mliving/maa. With this assumption, we find ntotal = 2 X 1039.
Naturally, this estimate is quite uncertain. Other estimates of
this number are larger. E.g. Bar-Nun and Shaviv (Icarus 24, 197,
1975) estimate 5.4 X 1041, while Shklovskii and Sagan (1966
Intelligent Life in the Universe) estimated 1044. We shall see
that our results are only slightly affected by these
uncertainties.
27
Finally, to derive nt in the primeval soup, we need to divide ntotal
by the volume of the material where living material existed on the
early Earth. In the present Earth, the volume of the biosphere is
of order 1019-20 cubic cm. However, life probably started in
particular locations, and so the relevant volume of the primeval
soup was probably much smaller. Let us suppose that the early
Earth had a biosphere with a volume that was 10-100 times smaller
than it is at present. (This putative decrease in volume will help
to speed up reactions.) That is, let us suppose that all of the
amino acids which now are present in living matter on Earth were
concentrated in the primeval soup into a favored volume of only
1018 cubic cm. Combining this with our estimate of ntotal, we see
that the mean density of amino acids in the favored volume of the
primeval soup nt could have been about 2 X 1021 per cubic cm.
Is this a reasonable value? To answer this, we note that this
value of nt corresponds to a mean mass density of 0.34 gram/cubic
cm for the amino acids in the primeval soup. This density is very
high (the molar concentration is about 0.1): it is questionable
whether such a high density of amino acids could ever have been
dissolved in water. This estimate of mass density is certainly
close to the upper limit possible: it could hardly have been any
higher. In order to remain dissolved in water (with mean density 1
gram/cubic cm), the mass density of amino acids can certainly not
exceed the density of water. Therefore, our estimate of the upper
limit on nt is not unreasonable as we try to optimize the chances
of randomly assembling a cell. (If we were to use Bar-Nun and
Shaviv’s estimate of the total number of amino acids, we would
need to dilute them by dissolving them in at least 100 times more
volume than we used above in order to keep the mean density less
than that of water. With Shklovskii and Sagan’s estimate, the
volume must be larger still by a further factor of 200.) The
actual value of nt in the primeval soup was probably orders of
magnitude less than the estimate given above. Maximum molar
concentrations of amino acids in the primeval soup have been
estimated to be as low as 10-7 or 10-8 (Hulett 1969 J. Theor. Biol.
24 56; Dose, 1975, Biosystems 6, 224). Thus, our estimates of nt
are probably too large by 6 or 7 orders of magnitude. However, in
the spirit of optimizing the chances of making a cell, let us use
the above upper limit as the value of nt.
Now we have all of the ingredients we need to calculate tc, the
mean time between collisions in the primeval soup. We find tc = 5 X
10-11 seconds.
13.2. Number of collisions by a single amino acid in 1.11 b.y.
28
Now that we know the mean interval between collisions, we see that
in the primeval soup, a given amino acid experienced 2 X 1010
collisions every second as an upper limit. Therefore, each amino
acid experienced no more than 2 X 1010 reactions every second with
other amino acids.
How many collisions did an amino acid experience in the primeval
soup in the course of a time interval of 1.11 billion years, i.e.
in the 3.5 X 1016 seconds before the first cell appeared on Earth?
The answer is straightforward. Multiplying the above reaction rate
by the number of seconds available, we find that each amino acid
in the primeval soup experienced at most nr(1) = 7 X 1026 reactions
with other amino acids before the first cell appeared on Earth.
13.3. Total number of collisions between amino acids in 1.11 b.y.

Finally, we ask: what was the total number of reactions between
amino acids that occurred in the primeval soup before the first
cell appeared? The answer is again straightforward: since each
amino acid experienced nr(1) in that time, and since there were
ntotal amino acids in the primeval soup, the total number of
reactions nr between amino acids was about 1065 before the first
cell appeared.
This is a "large" number. But it is finite.
Moreover, we have artificially forced nr to be as large as possible
by making four extreme assumptions. (i) Every collision produces a
peptide-bonding reaction. (ii) The mass of pre-biotic material was
as large in the primeval soup as it is in today’s biomass. (iii)
The entire biomass in the primeval soup was in the form of amino
acids (or bases). (iv) All amino acids were concentrated in pools
where their mass density could build up to the maximum permissible
value. In the real primeval soup, conditions might have been such
that any or all of these assumptions could have failed by several
orders of magnitude. (In particular, (iv) almost certainly failed
by 6-7 orders of magnitude, and (i) almost certainly failed by
several orders of magnitude because of reaction kinetics.)
Therefore, it is highly likely that the actual total number of
collisions which occurred in the primeval soup before the first
cell appeared could have been 10 or more orders of magnitude less
than 1065.
Of course, our estimates refer to our estimates of the biomass
only, and also to binary collisions only. If we were to use the
estimates of Bar-Nun and Shaviv or of Shlokskii and Sagan, the
number densities per unit volume nt cannot exceed the value we have
29
already used above. Therefore, there will be no change in the
number of collisions per second. But the total number of
collisions would increase by 2-5 orders of magnitude above our
estimate.
For the sake of argument, let us assume that these other processes
compensated for orders of magnitude deficits associated with the
extreme assumptions (i)-(iv) above. That is, we will assume in
what follows that nr was indeed of order 1065. This appears to be a
very generous estimate of the total number of reactions in the
primeval soup.

14. Random production of the first cell
We are now in a position to estimate probabilities for randomly
assembling the first cell.
Let us return to our estimate of the number of reactions that were
necessary to create the first cell by random processes. In order
to create a cell containing 12 proteins with chains of N = Na amino
acids each, we recall that R12p was required to be 10J (where J is
given in eq. (4) above) if proteins and RNA were both assembled at
random.
However, if we accept the "RNA-first theory", we recall that the
number of reactions R12p(RNA-first) was "only" 10K (where K is given
in eq. (5) above).
Now that we know how many reactions actually did occur in the
primeval soup before the first cell appeared, we can equate nr
to the above values of R12p in order to determine how large qra must
have been in order to have reasonable probability of assembling
the first cell at random.
Setting R12p equal to nr, we find that the value of qra required for
random assembly of the first cell must satisfy the equation
37.3Na +43.3 -24qra = 65 (eq. 6)
if proteins and RNA were assembled together. On the other hand, if
we accept the RNA-first theory, then we find
24.3Na +43.3 -14q(RNA)ra = 65. (eq. 7)
30
As mentioned above, the value of Na is no less than 14. Inserting
Na = 14 in eq. (6) and (7) leads to qra = 20.8 or q(RNA)ra = 22.8.
The numerical value of qra increases linearly with the value of Na,
increasing by 1.7 for each unit increase in Na. However, qra is not
sensitive to the number of proteins in the cell. Moreover, qra is
not sensitive to errors in our estimates of the number of
collisions in the primeval soup: even if our estimated number of
collisions is wrong by factors of (say) one million times too
large or too small, our estimates of qra would change by only plus
or minus 0.4.
The above estimates of qra emerge from the two basic points of our
argument: (i) a finite time was available for chemical reactions
to operate, and (ii) a cell cannot function as a truly living
organism with less than the bare minimum of 12 proteins.
However, as we saw in Section 9 above, the total number of all
available proteins in the Na = 14 world is such that q has
certainly a maximum value qmax = 18.2. (The actual maximum would be
smaller than this for the reasons discussed in Section 9 above,
but let us continue to optimize the case for random assembly and
retain qmax = 18.2.) We see that the value of qra that is required
to ensure random assembly of the first cell is larger than qmax.
However, it is formally impossible for q to have a value in excess
of qmax: qra cannot exceed qmax even in optimal conditions. If qra is
equal to, or larger than, qmax it implies that every available
protein in the primeval soup must have been capable of performing
the task of every other protein. This indicates a serious lack of
specificity of tasks in the cell.
This conclusion does not depend sensitively on the choice of Na. If
functioning proteins actually require Na to be as large as (say) 20
(such as the mini-proteins referred to by Maniloff), we would find
q(RNA)ra = 33. However, the total number of proteins in an Na = 20
world would be of order 2020 , i.e. qmax = 26. The value of q(RNA)ra
again exceeds qmax, and so the conclusion about non-specificity
still applies.

15. Do proteins in the primeval soup have specific tasks?

The result that qra has a value in excess of qmax has significant
implications. It implies that there are no distinguishing
properties between proteins: each protein would have had the
31
ability to perform the task of all the other functional proteins
in the first cell. If that were to be the case, then there would
be no way to regulate the various distinct groups of cell
operations: replication could occur in the membrane, or membrane
generation could occur in the energy generation sites.
However, the nature of a cell requires that proteins have clearly
defined and distinctly specific functions. That is, not all
proteins must be capable of (say) membrane production: only a
fraction F (<1) of the proteins must have this capability.
What is a likely value for F? At one extreme, the smallest value F
can have is Fmin = 1/Qmax. Writing F = 10-f, this means that the
maximum possible value of f is fmax = qmax. In this limit, protein
specificity would be maximized: there would then be one and only
one protein out of the Qmax distinct proteins which could perform
any one of the basic tasks of the cell. In such a case, all 14
amino acids in each protein would be an invariant site, forbidding
any substitutions.
This extreme specificity is not true of most modern proteins:
typically, only a subset of sites are invariant. E.g., Yockey
(Table 6.3) discusses a 110-acid protein in which only 14 sites
are invariant. At the remaining 96 sites, a number of other amino
acids (from 2 to 19) may be substituted without degrading
significantly the functioning of the protein. The amino acids
which are functionally acceptable at a site are those which do not
impede the folding process or the biochemical requirements of the
protein. Because of these possibilities for substitution, the
probability of randomly “finding” a functional protein in “aminoacid
phase space” may be much improved over what one might expect
on the basis of the value of Qmax alone. Yockey (p. 254) describes
in detail how to compute the probability factor 2HN when one knows
how many different amino acids can be substituted at each site.
For the 110-acid protein discussed by Yockey, the improvement in
probability is enormous (from 1 in 10137 to 1 in 1093). It is not
clear how much improvement will occur in a small protein, where
there are only 14 amino acids. For the latter, the phase space is
limited to 1018.2. The 3-dimensional folding of such a small protein
might be quite sensitive to amino acid substitutions, more so than
for a larger protein. If this is true, then the improvement factor
might be quite small.
At the opposite extreme, F can certainly not exceed Fmax = 1/12 if
we are to preserve the distinction of 12 separate proteins for
each of the cell’s tasks. The limit F = 1/12 represents the
32
minimum possible protein specificity. This means that f cannot
have a value less than 1.08 in a cell with Np = 12 proteins.
In fact, it is probable that F is much smaller than 1/12. If F
were as large as 1/12, the prognosis for cell survival would be
slim: a single point mutation could convert (say) a membraneproducer
in any particular cell into (say) a waste management
protein. If this were to happen, the cell and its progeny could
hardly expect to survive for long.
This suggests that, in order to ensure long life for the cell, the
value of F should be much smaller than 1/12. How small might F be?
Let us introduce a “protein specificity index” m such that
F=(1/12)m, i.e. f = 1.08m. With this definition, the minimum value
that m can have is mmin = 1 (the minimum permissible specificity).
Values of m in the range (say) m = 3-4 represent conditions where
protein functions are only marginally specific. The maximum value
that m can have is mmax = qmax/1.08: in the example given above where
qmax = 18.2, mmax would have a value of about 16.9. In the limit m =
mmax, every protein performs a unique task.
With this well-defined range of the m parameter, we may usefully
refer to an “average specificity index” mav = (mmin + mmax)/2. With
the values just cited, we find mav is about 9. High specificities
can be considered as those with m values in excess of mav. Low
specificities are those with m values less than mav.

16. What are the chances of creating the first functioning cell
randomly?
The fact that the factor F departs from unity has the effect that
the Q factor which we used above in estimating the probability of
random formation of the first cell must be replaced by the product
FQmax. The quantity q in our earlier estimates must be replaced by
qmax-f where f cannot be less than 1.08.
In view of this, if we adopt the “RNA-first” theory, the necessary
number of reactions for random assembly of the first cell is 10L
where
L = 24.3Na + 43.3 –14(qmax - f). (eq. 8)
Setting Na = 14, the chance Pr of random assembly of the first cell
in the first 1.11 billion years of Earth’s existence (during which
time there were at most 1065 reactions) is one in 10b where
b = 14(f - qmax + qra ). (eq. 9)
33
With f=1.08m, and qra – qmax = 4.6, the chance Pr is about one in
1015m+64.4. Since m cannot be less than 1, Pr is certainly less than
one in 1079. If m takes on its average value mav = 9, Pr decreases
to 1 in 10200. Even if m takes on values that are much smaller than
mav (say 2-3), the probability Pr amounts to only one in 1094-109.
Note that the exponent b increases rapidly as Na increases: both
qra and qmax are proportional to Na. As a result, if we increase Na
to (say) 21, we would find that qra – qmax would increase from 4.6
to 6.9. Then even with m = 1 (its lowest value), exponent b
exceeds 100.
Even if we were to allow for a much older Earth, with an age of
(say) 100 billion years, the number 65 in our formula for qra would
increase only to 67. This would lead to a reduction of only 0.14
in qra in the “RNA-first scenario”. This would increase the chance
of random cell assembly, but even in the best possible case (m=1),
Pr would still be no better than one part in 1077.
The result Pr < 10-79 applies to a cell consisting of only the
absolute minimum set of Np = 12 proteins. Such a cell is extremely
small compared to the smallest known cell in the modern world
(where Np = 250). What if the minimum number of proteins in a
functional cell is 30 or 50 or 100? In such cases, the requirement
of specificity of protein function has the effect that the factor
F must be smaller than 1/Np , i.e. the exponent f must exceed
log(Np). In terms of the protein specificity index m,
f = m log(Np), (eq. 10)
where m cannot be less than 1. In view of this, the probability of
random assembly of the first cell is one in 10b where
b = (Np+2)[mlog(Np) – qmax + qra ]. (eq. 11)
Therefore, if the first cell required (say) 30 proteins to become
operational, the chance of assembling its RNA at random in the
primeval soup after 1065 collisions is less than one in 1047m+147.
The exponent in this result rapidly becomes large even if we allow
for only marginal specificity. For example, if m has a value of 2,
Pr is less than one in 10240. And if m is set equal to its average
value mav = 9, Pr falls to less than one in 10570.
If the modern genetic code was operative in the first primitive
cell (much smaller than the smallest cell in today’s world), the
above numbers are mathematical statements of the chances that the
34
RNA for the first cell was assembled by random processes. It is
clear that the probabilities are extremely small. We stress that
we have optimized a number of parameters in estimating the above
probabilities.

17. What about doublet-codons?

We can improve the situation for random assembly of the first cell
by considering the following possibility: suppose that, by some
means, the proteins in the first cell were assembled from a
smaller set of distinct amino acids than the Naa = 20 which exist
in nature today.
To be specific, let us suppose that the number of distinct amino
acids which were used in the first cell was as small as Naa = 5. It
is not obvious that functional proteins could actually exist with
such a small “vocabulary” of amino acids. However, it has been
claimed that protein folding is possible with as few as 5 distinct
amino acids (Riddle et al. 1997). Therefore, consideration of this
case probably does not violate any of the constraints of physical
chemistry. It also does not violate any of the limitations of
information theory: the quaternary genetic code might have begun
as a “first extension” using doublet codons (Yockey, p. 188).
(Vestiges of this early code might still exist in modern
mitochondria.) Doublet codons might have encoded for as few as 4-5
proteins (see Yockey, Table 7.1).
The major change in our calculation in this case is that the
codons in the RNA would no longer need to consist of triplets of
bases. Assuming that there are still 4 bases to use for RNA
coding, doublets would suffice to provide unique encoding for all
5 amino acids (plus a start and a stop code). Of course, one might
suspect that in a world where the number of useful amino acids has
been reduced from 20 to 5, there might also be a reduction in the
number of useful bases. For example, if there were only 2 useful
bases (i.e. if the genetic code were ever binary consisting of one
purine and one pyrimidine, a possibility discussed by Yockey (p.
184), then triplet codons would still be needed even to encode for
Naa = 5. In this case, we would return to the estimates derived
above for the triplet codon world. If there were 3 useful bases
available, doublet codons would suffice to encode for up to Naa = 7
(plus a start and stop code).
However, to optimize chances for random assembly, let us assume
that all 4 of the modern bases are available so that we can
exploit the possibility of doublet codons for the case Naa = 5.
35
In this case, the probability of assembling the RNA for a cell
consisting of 12 proteins, each with Na amino acids, would be fRNA =
(1/10)M where
M = 14.4Na +28.9 – 12q. (eq. 12)
We still need two proteins to allow DNA to do its work: with only
5 different amino acids to choose from, the chances of assembling
these two proteins at random are (1/5)P X 10-2q where P = 2Na.
Therefore fRNA in the 2-codon world would be equal to (1/10)R where
R = 15.8Na + 28.9 – 14q. (eq. 13)
In order that RNA for the first doublet-codon cell could have been
assembled at random in the first 1.11 billion years of Earth’s
existence, we must satisfy the equation
15.8Na +28.9 –14qd = 65 (eq. 14)
where subscript d denotes that we are dealing with doublet codons.
What is the minimum size of a protein in a world with Naa = 5? In
our previous discussion of our modern world where Naa = 20, we have
argued that proteins with Na = 14 are the smallest functional
units. Does this argument remain valid when Naa is reduced to a
value as small as 5? The answer is not obvious. For lack of
alternatives, we will assume that Na cannot be less than 14 in a
functional protein in the Naa = 5 world.
With this assumption, we find that qd cannot be less than 13.2.
This is many orders of magnitude smaller than the value of qra
which is required in the three-codon world. At first sight, this
might appear to represent a large increase in protein specificity.
However, results from the three-codon world are not relevant here.
Instead, we need to compare the new estimate of qd with the total
number of distinct proteins that are possible in the primeval
soup. With 5 distinct amino acids in the soup, and with each
protein containing 14 amino acids, we see that there are some 514
distinct possible proteins. Therefore, in this case, Qmax = 109.8 ,
i.e. qmax = 9.8. In view of the requirement that Q be at least as
large as 109.8, we see that the qd required for random assembly of
the RNA for the first cell again exceeds its maximum permissible
value, this time by 3.4. That is, once again essentially all
proteins are required to perform the task of all other proteins.
We are faced once again with the problem of lack of protein
specificity.
36
To satisfy the demands of specificity, we again introduce the
fraction F = 10-f of all available proteins which are able to
perform the task of (say) energy production. As before, we write f
= m log(Np) where m lies between 1 and qmax/log(Np). (With the above
numbers, mmax = 9.1, and the average specificity mav takes on a
value of about 5.) In view of this, we see that the probability of
assembling RNA for the first cell by chance in the 2-codon world
becomes one in 10c where
c = (Np+2)[mlog(Np) – qmax + qd ]. (eq. 15)
Since the difference qd - qmax is now “only” 3.4 (as opposed to 4.6
for the 3-codon case), we see that the probability of random
assembly of the RNA for a (12-14) cell has increased in the 2-
codon case by at least 16-17 in the exponent. This is a great
improvement indeed relative to the 3-codon case.
However, even with absolutely marginal specificity of protein
tasks, i.e. m = 1, the probability Pr of assembling RNA randomly in
the primeval soup for a (12-14) cell which uses only Naa = 5
distinct amino acids is no better than one in about 1063. If the
specificity has its average value mav = 5, then Pr = 10-123. Even if
the value of m is much smaller than mav (say m = 2-3), and with
more realistic numbers of proteins in the cell (say Np = 30), the
chances of randomly assembling the RNA for the first cell in the
primeval soup using doublet codons is no better than one in 10200.

18. What about singlet codons?

We might (in principle) improve the chances of randomly assembling
the first cell if the genetic code were able to operate with
singlet codons (instead of doublets or triplets). However, it
seems unlikely that such a world can exist. It is known that
folding of a protein simply cannot be achieved using an amino acid
set that is as small as 3 (Riddle et al. 1997): on the other hand,
folding can be achieved if the set of amino acids is as large as
5. For the sake of argument, let us make the extreme assumption
that folding CAN occur with an amino acid set consisting of only 4
species in the primeval soup. In this case, a singlet codon (one
of the four bases for each amino acid) would in principle suffice
for the RNA to encode for the amino acids, although with zero
redundancy (and therefore no error protection).
37
However, in order to assemble an accompanying DNA molecule, we
also need to have start and stop codons. That is, we must encode
not merely for the 4 amino acids, but also for the start/stop
codons. This means that the DNA is required to encode for at least
6 elements. This cannot be done with singlet codons (if only four
bases are available.)
We conclude that the doublet-codon world is as simple as we can go
and still have access to the flexibility of the genetic code.

19. A window of opportunity

When we considered what was probably the simplest example of a
doublet-codon world, with Naa = 5, we found that random assembly of
the first cell turned out to be more probable than in the triplet
codon case with Naa = 20. But still, the probability Pr is very
small.
However, this is not the only example we might consider. Doublet
codons with 4 useful bases can in principle encode for a
“vocabulary” of proteins made with Naa in the range from 5 to 14
(allowing for start and stop codes). And if proteins still consist
of Na = 14 amino acids, then the maximum available number of
proteins Qmax increases from 514 to 1414 as Naa increases from 5 to
14. That is, qmax increases from 9.8 to 16.0. The corresponding
values of mmax in a 12-protein cell are 9.1-14.8 (with mav = 5.05-
7.9).
Returning to the expression we obtained for the probability Pr of
random assembly of RNA for the first cell in a doublet codon
world, 1 in 10c, we recall from eq. (15) that
c = (Np+2)[m log(Np) + qd – qmax]
where qd = 13.2 (for proteins with 14 amino acids each) and m has a
value of at least 1. Inserting qmax values in the range from 9.8 to
16.0, we see that the difference qd-qmax is no longer in all cases
positive definite. In fact, when Naa grows to a value as large as
9, the value of qd-qmax becomes for the first time negative (-0.2).
This will certainly improve the probability of random assembly.
However, if we insert numerical values, and set the specificity to
its average value (mav = 7.2), we find that in a (12-14) cell, the
value of the exponent c for the case Naa = 9 becomes 106. If we
allow the protein specificity to fall to a very small value, say m
= 2, then c becomes 28. That is, the probability that the RNA of
38
the first cell with Naa = 9 was assembled by chance in the first
billion years of the primeval soup might be as large as 1 in 1028.
These represent large improvements over the probabilities we have
considered above.
Moving on to even larger values of Naa, the formal probabilities of
random RNA assembly become even larger. In fact, with Naa = 11, the
probability Pr approaches unity if m has a value less than
1.4/log(Np). Thus, in a (12-14) cell, a value of m less than 1.3
would ensure that Pr could have a value of order unity if Naa = 11.
Such a cell could have had its RNA assembled randomly with high
probability in the primeval soup in an interval of 1.11 billion
years.
In the limiting case Naa = 14 in the doublet codon world, a (12-14)
cell could be assembled randomly with high probability (in fact,
with near certainty) in 1.11 billion years as long as mlog(Np) does
not exceed the numerical difference between qmax and qd (i.e. 16.0-
13.2 = 2.8), i.e. as long as m does not exceed 2.5. This
represents the widest opening of the window of opportunity for the
random assembly of the RNA for a (12-14) cell.
We note that a specificity of less than 2.5 is much smaller than
the average mav: for the case Naa = 14, mav has the value 7.9. If
the protein specificity index in the primeval soup was indeed as
large as the value mav, the probability Pr of assembling the first
(12-14) cell randomly in a doublet codon world is no more than one
in 1080.
The window of opportunity in the doublet-codon world has an
interesting property that is relevant to the modern world. For a
14-acid cell where the number of proteins is as large as in the
smallest known modern cell (Np = 250), the probability of random
assembly Pr could have approached unity as long as m is in the
range 1.0-1.17. This is a very restricted window: but it is a bona
fide window. It indicates that, provided all of the various
optimized conditions are satisfied, random assembly of a (250-14)
cell might have occurred with high probability in the young Earth
with Naa = 14.
However, the restricted window for the Np = 250 cell closes
altogether if we have overestimated by too much the number of
collisions in the primeval soup. As was mentioned in Section 13.3,
our choice of 1065 for the value of nr (the total number of
reactions experienced by bases or amino acids in the primeval
soup) may be too large by 10 or more orders of magnitude. If nr is
in fact equal to 1058 (or less), then qd increases to 13.7 (or
39
more). In this case, the probability Pr (= 1 chance in 10c) falls
far below unity even if m has its minimum possible value (m=1):
the exponent c takes on the value 24.7 (or more).
Values of m as small as 1.17 or 1.3 (or even 2.5) represent
marginal specificities; they are far below the average
specificities, and are close to the absolute minimum value of m
(=1). Whether living cells could in fact survive (and replicate
faithfully) in the present of such marginal specificities is not
known. At the very least, it is a cause for concern in the context
of cell robustness.
The above calculation suggests formally that random assembly of
the first cell could have been achieved in the primeval soup if
certain conditions were satisfied. The requirements are: (i) at
least 11 distinct amino acids were available for use in the making
of proteins; (ii) 4 distinct bases were available for the DNA;
(iii) the protein specificity index m did not exceed 2.5 (for a
cell with 12 proteins); (iv) the number of amino acids in the
polypeptide chain of each protein equals 14; (v) the total number
of reactions between bases or amino acids in the primeval soup was
1065 ; (vi) we accept the RNA-first theory of cell assembly.
If any of these conditions was violated in the young Earth, the
probability of random assembly quickly falls to very low values.

20. Entropy constraints on the window of opportunity
At this point in the argument, we need to ask: is the mathematical
scenario described in Section 19 relevant in a robust biological
world?
In order to address this, we need to consider a certain aspect of
coding theory (Yockey, p. 5). The Central Dogma of biology states
that DNA encodes for protein assembly but proteins do not encode
for DNA assembly. To ensure this, coding theory states that the
“vocabulary” at the source (e.g. DNA) must have significantly more
symbols than the “vocabulary” at the receiver (amino acids).
In the modern world, there is no problem with this requirement.
With 64 codons in the DNA, and only 20 amino acids in (most)
proteins, there is a large excess in the “mutual information
entropy” of DNA compared to amino acids. The maximum information
content of a DNA sequence is 5.931 bits per codon, whereas the
information content of an average protein sequence is 4.139 bits
per amino acid (Yockey, p. 175). (These numbers are close to the
40
definition of Shannon entropy for the source log2(64) and receiver
log2(20) respectively: the slight differences arise because not all
modern amino acids are encoded with equal probability.) The
difference dH between 5.931 and 4.139 (dH = 1.792 bits per codon)
is (in the language of coding theory) a measure of the difference
in Shannon entropy between source (DNA) and receiver (proteins).
(Shannon entropy has nothing to do with the Maxwell-Boltzmann-
Gibbs entropy of thermodynamics). Because of this difference in
entropy, DNA can communicate information to amino acids, whereas
amino acids cannot communicate information back to the DNA.
The large amount of redundancy (represented by the ratio of 64 to
20) in the modern DNA “vocabulary” relative to the amino acid
“vocabulary” allows for error checking in the course of cell
replication. With the proper use of redundancy, the channel
capacity theorem (Yockey, p. 115) indicates that the error rate in
a code can be kept below any specified level. This is essential
for cells to ensure reliable and consistent replication in the
course of many generations.
As one possible measure of the level of error protection in a
code, we may refer to some results obtained by Yockey (p. 73). It
turns out that in a protein with N amino acids, the number of
high-probability states N(h) in parameter space is 2NH where H is
the Shannon entropy per amino acid. In the event that all sites
have equal probability of occupation by each and all of the Naa
distinct amino acids, the value of N(h) becomes equal to NaaN, as
expected from the probability arguments we have used in this
paper. In view of the formula for N(h), it seems reasonable to
use, as a measure of error protection in the translation from DNA
to proteins, the number E = 2NxdH. In the case of a modern protein
such as insulin (with N=51), E has a value of 3 x 1027, and we
interpret this to mean that insulin is extremely well protected in
the modern world from errors in transcription.
Now let us return to the doublet codon option in the primeval
soup. A world containing 14 distinct amino acids in the proteins
(plus one start and one stop code) would correspond to a doublet
code in which the source has 16 symbols but the receiver also
contains 16 symbols. In this situation, where dH = log2(16/16) = 0,
there is zero entropy difference between source and receiver. As a
result, E = 1, and the measure of error protection for (say)
insulin would be some 27 orders of magnitude smaller than it is in
the modern world. Replication of insulin in such a situation would
be subject to intolerable uncertainty.
41
Moreover, the Central Dogma of biology would break down: a protein
(such as insulin) would be able to control DNA just as much as DNA
controls proteins. This hardly seems like a prescription for hardy
life forms: there are too many options for lack of
reproducibility.
However, the break-down of the Central Dogma in the Naa = 14 world
suggests that in such a world, one might consider not only the
RNA-first theory, but also a “protein-first” theory. The numerical
factors entering into our estimates of the probability of random
assembly would then change. Thus, the value we have used above for
qd (=13.2) (obtained from eq. (14)) would have to be changed to a
value determined from a modification of the expression for z in
eq. (1). We recall that eq. (1) refers to the case where the set
of distinct proteinous amino acids contains 20 entries. Here, we
have only 14 entries in the set, and as a result, z changes to
13.8Na – 12q. Setting z equal to 65 and Na = 14, we find qd = 10.7.
The window of opportunity now widens somewhat: for the case Naa =
14, the value of Pr approaches unity as long as the specificity
index m does not exceed 4.9. This is still well below the average
value mav (= 7.9). Thus, we are still forced to confront the
requirement that protein specificities are quite small.
A doublet codon world, if it is to be of interest to biology in
the context of error-free replication, must certainly contain less
than 14 distinct amino acids. How much less than 14 should we
consider? We have seen that there is a good probability that RNA
can be assembled randomly as long as Naa has a value of 11 or more.
Including a start and a stop codon, this means that the genetic
code must use 16 symbols at the source to encode for 13 (or more)
amino acids. The difference in Shannon entropy between source and
receiver for this case is log2(16/13), i.e. dH = 0.3. With such a
value of dH, the error protection E of insulin would fall to 4 x
104, i.e. some 23 orders of magnitude weaker than the protection
which exists in the modern genetic code. And for the cases Naa = 12
and 13, the values of dH are 0.19 and 0.09 respectively. The
corresponding values of E for insulin would be 826 and 24, i.e. up
to 26 orders of magnitude less protection than in the modern
world.
Although it is sometimes claimed that error protection “must have
been” less in the early genetic codes than in the modern world,
this is not necessarily true. On the contrary, to ensure that
reliable replication occurs among millions of cells of even a
single species, it appears that the earliest genetic codes “must
have been nearly as accurate as those of today, otherwise even
short proteins could not have been transmitted in sufficient
42
numbers” (Yockey, p. 338). In other words, if the earliest genetic
codes were error prone, biology would not have been possible.
In order to ensure the same error protection between source and
receiver which exists in the modern world, there should be similar
redundancy to what exists in the modern world. That is, the ratio
of the number of codons in the DNA to the number of symbols in the
amino acids should be comparable to the modern value (64/20 =
3.2). This suggests that, at an epoch when there were 16 codons in
the DNA code (if there was indeed such a “doublet-codon epoch” in
the early Earth), the value of Naa should have been 5. This is
precisely the case we considered in the Doublet Codon section. The
Central Dogma would be just as robustly valid in such a world as
it is in today’s world. However, the chances of randomly
assembling such a cell is (as we have seen) only 1 in 1063.

21. Window of opportunity? or bottleneck?
There is a further constraint on the world of doublet codons in
which Naa lies in the range from 11 to 14. This has to do with how
well protected the genetic code is from noise-induced mutations.
Cullmann and Labouygues (1983, BioSystems 16, 9: hereafter C&L)
have discussed this issue in numerical detail.
In order to understand the results of C&L, a brief summary of
their terminology is necessary. In a doublet code, with 4 bases,
there are 16 possible codons. Of these, only a certain number (the
“sense codons”) are used to encode for proteinous amino acids. The
remainder are “non-sense codons” which serve to terminate the
translation. Mutations of various types can occur as a result of
noise. There is one class of mutations which causes a sense codon
to switch to a non-sense codon. In a second class of mutations, a
single mutation causes a sense codon to switch to another sense
codon. In the latter case, the protein may still function if there
are synonymous code entries. But if we dealing with an invariant
site, then the protein function is disabled, and C&L refer to a
“mis-sense” codon.
C&L have systematically analyzed all possible doublet codons in a
world where the number of amino acids being encoded varies from Naa
= 0 to 16 (thus including all numbers of interest to us here). In
each case, they count up how many single mutations N lead to nonsense
codons, and how many single mutations D(1) belong to
synonymous and mis-sense codons. C&L point out that the optimal
code (as far as immunization from noise is concerned) is one which
43
minimizes N and which simultaneously maximizes D(1). Codes which
have N not too far from its minimum value also possess significant
immunization against noise. C&L find that, starting with Naa = 0
and increasing Naa in steps of unity, there is at first a growing
number of doublet codes which satisfy the optimal condition.
In the present context, it is important to note that this growth
in available codes continues up to Naa = 8, at which point there
are thousands of codes which are not far from optimal. But for Naa
= 9 and larger, the number of available codes begins to diminish
rapidly. For Naa = 12, the number of codes has decreased to the
hundreds, and as Naa approaches 16, the numbers drop off towards a
value of 1. Thus, as a doublet-codon system attempts to encode for
more and more amino acids, there are less and less options the
closer Naa approaches 16.
Yockey (p. 190) refers to this as a “bottleneck” which has
evolutionary significance. He suggests that doublet codons might
have been successful in operating biology as long as Naa was
smaller than 16. But as more and more amino acids became available
for inclusion into proteins, and Naa eventually increased above 16,
it eventually became necessary to go to triplet codons. However,
before this happened, and as Naa increased upward through values of
9, 10,…16, the shrinking size of parameter space in which noiseimmunized
codes can exist would have exposed the organisms of that
time to an increasing lack of immunization against genetic noise.
Now, we recall that, in our discussion above, the probability of
randomly assembling the RNA for the initial (12-14) cell first
rises to large values when Naa is as large as 11. Using the results
of C&L, we now see that this value of Naa has a significant
property: it is already past the peak in available numbers of
doublet codes. Thus, we are already approaching the vicinity of
Yockey’s “bottleneck”. This makes it increasingly difficult for an
immunized genetic code to handle the large variety of proteins
which one might expect to find in a flourishing biosphere.

22. Overview on the window of opportunity
Let us now take an overall look at the window of opportunity in
the light of our discussions of the “bottleneck” (Section 21), the
entropy (Section 20), and the requisite marginal specificities of
proteins (Section 19). Taken in combination, these discussions
suggest that what appears as a window of opportunity for random
assembly of the first cell (in a formal mathematical sense) may be
44
subject to several classes of difficulties in the biological
context.
It is true that a scenario in which the doublet-codon window opens
up to its widest extent describes a system which is interesting
from a mathematical perspective. But from a biological
perspective, this system suffers from three serious drawbacks.
First, in the encoding process between DNA and proteins, error
protection is many orders of magnitude weaker than it is in modern
organisms. Second, the phase space of permissible genetic codes
shrinks to smaller and smaller volumes. Third, a huge number of
the available proteins must be able to perform each and every task
in the cell: the number is so large that there would have been
almost no specificity in protein tasks within a cell. That is,
there is a good chance that a protein which is supposed to be used
for (say) membrane repair, may switch to one whose function is
(say) enabling reproduction.
Any one of these features could be considered as posing
significant difficulties for cell survivability. The combination
of all three exacerbates the problem. It is difficult to see how a
cell (even of the primitive kind we consider here, no bigger than
a modern virus) could have survived. For the first robust cell to
have developed randomly in the doublet-codon phase of the
primitive Earth, conditions must have been “just right” to allow
survival in the presence of the above serious drawbacks.

23. Conclusion
We have numerically evaluated the probability Pr that, in the first
1.11 billion years of Earth’s existence, random processes were
successful in putting together the RNA for the first cell. In
estimating Pr, we initially assumed that the first cell follows the
rules which guide modern life-forms. That is, we assume there are
Naa = 20 distinct amino acids in proteins, and triplet codons in
the genetic code.
In calculating Pr, we consider only the random assembly of RNA: we
assume that once the RNA is present, it will generate the proteins
for the cell. (Thus, we are not requiring that the proteins be
assembled randomly: if we were to impose such a requirement, the
probabilities of random assembly of the first cell would be even
smaller than the results we obtain here.) Furthermore, we consider
45
a cell which is much smaller than those which exist in the modern
world. The latter contain at least 250 proteins. By contrast, we
have reduced the requirements of the first living cell to a bare
minimum: we assume that that cell was able to function with only
12 proteins. Compared to the smallest known living cell, our
choice of 12 proteins seems almost absurdly reductionist. Our
“cell” looks more like a modern virus (which cannot reproduce
itself) than a bona fide cell. But we proceed anyway.
Moreover we also assume that each protein consists of a chain of
no more than 14 amino acids. We refer to this as a (12-14) cell.
Again, a chain with only 14 amino acids is considerably shorter
than the smallest known protein in the modern world (which
contains a few dozen amino acids). It is not clear that a protein
with only 14 acids would be subject to the 3-dimensional folding
which is essential to protein functioning. Nevertheless, we make
these reductionist assumptions about a cell with the aim of
optimizing the probability of assembling the first cell.
In this spirit, we start with the assumption that the only amino
acids which existed in the primitive Earth were the 20 (or so)
distinct types of amino acids which occur in the proteins of
modern living cells. Also in the spirit of optimization, we assume
that the entire pre-biomass of the Earth was in the form of
proteinous amino acids. We specifically exclude the non-biological
amino acids (numbering more than one hundred) which may have been
produced in the primitive Earth. Moreover, we also assume that all
20 of the proteinous amino acids were present solely in the Lisomer
form so that the growth of a protein chain is not ended
prematurely by unintentional inclusion of a D-isomer. Furthermore,
we assume that the initial cell occurred in the physical
conditions which are most commonly cited in textbooks, i.e. in a
“primeval soup”. This allows us to obtain a firm (and generous)
upper limit on the number of chemical reactions which could have
occurred before the first cell appeared on Earth.
With all of these assumptions, we find that the probability of
assembling the RNA required for even the most primitive (12-14)
cell by random processes in the time available is no more than one
in 1079.
In order to improve on the probability that random processes
assembled the RNA for the first cell, we make the (unproven but
likely) assumption that proteins in the earliest cells were
constructed from a smaller set of distinct amino acids than those
which occur in modern cells. In order to ensure that the primitive
life forms had a similar level of error protection in their
46
genetic code as that which exists in the modern world, we consider
a case in which the early proteins consisted of only Naa = 5
distinct amino acids. For these, the genetic code can operate with
doublet codons. In such a world, the probability of randomly
assembling the RNA for the first cell in the time available is
certainly larger than in our modern (triplet codon) world. But the
probability is still small, no more than one part in about 1063.
We have identified a region in parameter space where, once the
genetic code exists, the probability of random assembly of the
first cell could have reached formally large values in optimal
conditions. These conditions include the following: (i) the first
cell contained 12 proteins; (ii) each protein in the cell
contained 14 amino acids; (iii) there were 4 bases in DNA; (iv)
the protein specificity index was no larger than 2.5 (far below
its average value); and (v) conditions in the primitive prebiosphere
were such that chemical reactions occurred at their
maximum possible rates. (The last of these conditions almost
certainly involves an optimization which is unrealistic by as much
as 10 orders of magnitude.)
(Note that we have said nothing about how the genetic code came
into existence. We merely assume that it is already in operation.
The origin of the code is a more formidable problem than the one
we have addressed here.)
If mathematics were the only consideration, our conclusions would
suggest that the RNA for the first cell could have been assembled
randomly in the primeval soup in 1.11 b.y. once there was a code
and abundant supplies of between 11 and 14 distinct proteinous
amino acids. However, when we take into account considerations of
coding theory (especially the necessity to protect the proteins
from errors of transcription), it appears that this region of
parameter space is hostile to protein production. And the genetic
code has to pass through a “bottleneck” in order to enter into the
modern world, with its 20 proteinous amino acids. As a result, the
first cell might have had serious difficulties surviving as an
autonomous biological system.
Finally, the extreme nature of our assumptions regarding the first
cell (12 proteins, each containing 14 amino acids) can hardly be
overstated. If a cell is to fulfil even the minimum requirements
of a Von Neumann self-replicating machine, it probably needs at
least 250 proteins. Even with multiple optimizations in our
assumptions about the primeval soup, the window of opportunity for
creating such a cell in 1.11 b.y. narrows down to a very
restricted region in phase space: (I) there must have been exactly
47
14 distinct amino acids in the cell proteins, (II) the protein
specificity index must have been between 1.0 and 1.17, and (III)
at least 1058 chemical reactions must have occurred between the
bases (or amino acids) in 1.11 b.y. The “fine tuning” of such
conditions presents a problem. However, there are more serious
problems than fine tuning: error protection in the genetic code
fails altogether in these conditions. Even the Central Dogma of
biology breaks down. A cell formed under these conditions would
truly be subject to serious uncertainties not only during day-today
existence but especially during replication. The cell could
hardly be considered robust.
Nevertheless, as Yockey (p. 203) points out, the possibility that
an organism from the doublet-codon world might have survived the
“bottleneck” may have some empirical support. According to the
endosymbiotic theory (L. Margulis 1970, Origin of Eukaryotic
Cells, Yale Univ. Press, New Haven CT), mitochondria might have
been at one time free-living bacteria which now survive in a
symbiotic relationship with the cytoplasma of other cells. In
mitochondria, the genetic code differs somewhat from the code in
other cells. Perhaps mitochondria are representative of organisms
which originated in the doublet-codon world, but which could not
survive on their own because of the difficulties associated with
the hostile zone of parameter space where they originated.
In summary, if the first cell actually originated by random
processes, the genetic code must already have existed, and
conditions must have been “finely tuned” in order to trace a path
through a narrow (and hostile) region of parameter space. The idea
that some of the constants of the physical world have been subject
to “fine tuning” in order to allow life to emerge, has been widely
discussed in recent years (e.g. in the book by J. D. Barrow and F.
J. Tipler, The Anthropic Cosmological Principle, Oxford University
Press, 1994, 706 pp). If we are correct in concluding that “fine
tuning” is also required in order to assemble the first cell, we
might regard this conclusion as a biological example of the
Anthropic Principle.
"you've done a formal intervew with that 1% of the populationt" is another uneducated question. You do not have to conduct an interview with every scientist on the planet to know what the clear consensus is, especially in the AGE OF THE INTERNET. Do you conduct such an interview to know about the theory of gravity? Electomagnetism? Germ theory? The consensus at EVERY major science univerisity and organization on EARTH, from biology, to geology, to anthropology to genetics to radiometrics (physics) you name it, EVERY ONE...supports evolution. NO branch of science has scientists with a consensus that evolution is false. Scientists having meetings and journal club (do you even know what that is?) and would discuss such major breakthru.
no not an interview but an understanding of what you are talking about would help, no?



Nonsense. There are far far far more scientists with data that support evolution, in EVERY major science university, in EVERY major science organization, in EVERY major science/natural history museum on EARTH. Please go to google.scholar or pubmed or Ovid or any of the scientific databases. For every expert listed in those sites, with their universities, can you produce another expert OF EQUALITY QUALITY to counter claim? You cannot. Can you name ONE scientist who has refuted evolution, from what university?
I have indeed, his paper is above, pls feel free to read it!


Wrong, again. You know little of evolution is it sadly shows. Please educate yourself.
Thank God for your presence here to educate us!

Evolution is based on EMPIRICAL evidence. Evidence you can touch and see, it is not mere philosophy and conjecture. They are backed by scientists, back by universities, who know the material, who written up experiments that are repeatable. If you reject science and reason and the evidence, then you believe "just because," on faith. Do not abandon your reason.
Now you are just tickling me with redundance..
in which case I say, pls let's not waste each other' time!

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 08:27 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
1- demonstrate to me where I am worse than sophomoric instead of hitting me back with what ails you!
You can't spell analogy.
You can't look up what "random" and "mutation" are.
You don't know how evolution explains TNRs.
You don't know what drives evolution (it's natural selection).
do you want me to continue?

2-How is my analogy false? pray do tell-- you throw our random nonsensical sentences that barely do anything with science and expect that they be earth shattering, indeed no different than one conferring an asa on any form of a headache..
the answer is 'evolution' by way of random selection, without going into any sort of details as to how, is the same as giving an asa to anyone with a headache without an understanding of disease process or etiology!
got it?
Your analogy is false:
evolution is to natural selection as giving asa for patient's headache is to not understanding the disease process or etiology?
That is the DUMBEST analogy I have ever heard.
You are trained in biology, are you not? Do I really need to explain it to you along with all your other nonsensical questions?
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 08:33 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Natural selection (which you apparently do not understand) is not superfluous. There are other ways evolution has been thought to occur, like lamackian.
Yes you keep telling me how I don't understand, yet can't synthesize your superior understanding for me so that I too can understand..

by the way I thought this would interest you.. since you are big on authority
format_quote Originally Posted by sky02
lamackian evolution, was thoroughly discredited by the new evolutionary synthesis of that began in the 1950’s to integrate the insights of population genetics into evolutionary thought. Leroi-Gourhan’s view of evolution is unabashedly progressive and teleological. Much of the goal of Le Geste et la Parole is to discover the underlying direction of evolution. This is a project which finds little relevance today.
source



What major science university or organization or branch of science have reached a consensus that it refutes evolution? It is only the fringe unscientific uneducated position of yours that it does.
it seems there are many uneducated ones out there-- sad indeed!..
evolution was never demonstrated experimentally to be un-demonstrated .. it is a theory to which some subscribe and apparently are stuanch defenders as if their whole identity depended on it!



If you are a doctor as Tumble seemed to imply to me before, how can you POSSIBLY not know the answer to this? Any undergrad can answer this question. Genetic diseases can arise DE NOVO, either randomly or non-randomly. They are selected out, but can arise again de novo because DNA polymerase does NOT have 100% fidelity. A mere google search of any of the diseases you lists would likely have a "causes" section.
I don't think what I do for a living is of any relevance, anymore than appealing to authority, or listing your accolades or resorting to adhoms when unable to come up with a decipherable reply.. what is of relevance is that you haven't addressed the questions posed you, with the sustained definitions of the terms.. I am not asking you of what diseases arise de novo, writing them in caps doesn't relegate it as an answer.. I am asking you to reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions with natural selection, and I am asking you to show me which mutations were beneficial to the process of evolution, and have in fact caused speciation!

cheers
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 08:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
You can't spell analogy.
You'll forgive my confidence, I don't tend to run to wiki or a spell check before or after I write!

You can't look up what "random" and "mutation" are.
which parts of my posts alluded to my lack of understanding of what a random mutation is?

You don't know how evolution explains TNRs.
apparently neither do you, it has been almost like pulling teeth to get you to make congruous the understood definition with the etiology of those syndromes!

You don't know what drives evolution (it's natural selection).
do you want me to continue?
yes please do elaborate-- isn't that the point of your rather nonsensical protracted topics? to address the issues at hand?


Your analogy is false:
evolution is to natural selection as giving asa for patient's headache is to not understanding the disease process or etiology?
That is the DUMBEST analogy I have ever heard.
You are trained in biology, are you not? Do I really need to explain it to you along with all your other nonsensical questions?
My 'analogy' has simply mirrored your understanding of your own beliefs.. It offends you as you don't have a comprehensible reply-- that is all!

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 08:42 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I have indeed, his paper is above, pls feel free to read it!
cheers
LOL. Dr. Dermott J. Mullan is a professor astrophysics, interested in astrophysical magnetohydrodynamics, writing about
"Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth."
Yeah, astrophysicists around the global are banging on the doors of the biology/geology departments telling them evolution is false. NOT.
He is not an expert in the areas that require the expertise. YOU probably know mpre about evolution than he does (which is very little).

Curious, before I read it, what peer-reviewed journal published his paper?
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
LOL. Dr. Dermott J. Mullan is a professor astrophysics, interested in astrophysical magnetohydrodynamics, writing about
"Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth."
Yeah, astrophysicists around the global are banging on the doors of the biology/geology departments telling them evolution is false. NOT.
He is not an expert in the areas that require the expertise. YOU probably know mpre about evolution than he does (which is very little).

Curious, before I read it, what peer-reviewed journal published his paper?

You seem to enjoy logical fallacies of all sorts?
Argumentum ad hominem basically means that the argument becomes directed towards the individual as opposed towards the crucial issues being discussed. It is succinctly described as, attack the messenger not the message (hence – shoot the messenger). It is often seen in both politics and pseudoscience. Its aim is to undermine the position of ones opponent, by undermining the opponent personally (in a manner that is actually completely irrelevant to the debate). The hope here is that if one can discredit the individual, this by default, discredits his / her argument.

I really hate wasting my time-- once you can elevate yourself to a level, can you engage in a debate, I can't tell you how pitiably transparent you are.. if you have something of substance to rebut his research with, I'll be waiting for it..

btw: there are no peer reviewed articles to denote that not deploying your parachute when free falling will prevent death, but you are certainly welcome to refute that theory!

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 08:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I don't think what I do for a living is of any relevance, anymore than appealing to authority, or listing your accolades or resorting to adhoms when unable to come up with a decipherable reply.. what is of relevance is that you haven't addressed the questions posed you, with the sustained definitions of the terms..
What you do for a living DOES have relevance to my answers. I need to know if I am speaking to a true doctor with research experience or an uneducated person. To a true doctor, my answer will be much shorter, as I will you assume you already know basic biology.


I am not asking you of what diseases arise de novo...I am asking you to reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions with natural selection
I have answered this question. For the fourth time.
TNRs can be silent and thus able to past to the next generation, it is not selected out. When it reaches a threshold by amplification and cause a harmful phenotype, it is THEN selected out. Please ask another doctor (or genetic undergrad student) to draw you picture if you do not understand. It does not refute evolution.

Let me ask you this..how does TNRs NOT reconcile with evolution? TNRs have been known for decades...no scientist, no university, not even yourself, has published a paper proving how TNRs disprove evolution.


and I am asking you to show me which mutations were beneficial to the process of evolution, and have in fact caused speciation!
I have cited malaria resistance. Every med student should have been taught this, this is a CLASSIC case.

The mutation is a GAG to GUG codon mutatio (understand?)
The direct progeny is RESISTANT to malaria (understand?)
That is beneficial (understand?)
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 08:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
btw: there are no peer reviewed articles to denote that not deploying your parachute when free falling will prevent death, but you are certainly welcome to refute that theory!
If it is not even peer-reviewed by experts, why should I bother with it? How do I know all his data is correct or if his statistics are correct or if he made them up?

That's how science works. You should know that, do you?
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 09:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
evolution was never demonstrated experimentally to be un-demonstrated .. it is a theory to which some subscribe and apparently are stuanch defenders as if their whole identity depended on it!
DO you know how to use pubmed or Ovid and ANY of the scientific databases?
There are many cases that demonstrated evolution. It is demonstrated in agriculture. It is demonstrated in avian flu. Evolution is a theory and a fact, like the theory of gravity and germ theory.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 09:05 PM
Dermott J. Mullan, reaction from the scientific community....YAWN.
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 09:09 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
What you do for a living DOES have relevance to my answers. I need to know if I am speaking to a true doctor with research experience or an uneducated person. To a true doctor, my answer will be much shorter, as I will you assume you already know basic biology.
The problem really doesn't lie with me, rather with you..
You should approach all your arguments with the same fidelity..

I have answered this question. For the fourth time.
TNRs can be silent and thus able to past to the next generation, it is not selected out. When it reaches a threshold by amplification and cause a harmful phenotype, it is THEN selected out. Please ask another doctor (or genetic undergrad student) to draw you picture if you do not understand. It does not refute evolution.
how does being silent confer a hereditary pattern? What do you mean by a harmful pheotype? I have already shown you in fragile x they do have specific phenotypic features, which isn't what is harmful about the trait, and by selected out do you mean extinct? because again, it is a syndrome very much with us and worsening with each generation that carries those genes, if it were favorable by way of 'natural selection' it would have indeed been selected out ages ago, wouldn't you say?

Let me ask you this..how does TNRs NOT reconcile with evolution? TNRs have been known for decades...no scientist, no university, not even yourself, has published a paper proving how TNRs disprove evolution.
Evoltuion is not demonstrable!.. there is no proving or disproving it..
There is however much evidence to point out where it is flawed, and TNR is an area where 'natural selection' an integral part of the evolution theory is seriousely flawed!


I have cited malaria resistance. Every med student should have been taught this, this is a CLASSIC case.

The mutation is a GAG to GUG codon mutatio (understand?)
The direct progeny is RESISTANT to malaria (understand?)
That is beneficial (understand?)
Which part of my 'impedance of one disease state for another doesn't confer genetic transcendency' do you not understand?
it is great you won't die of malaria but you'll die of sickle cell... frankly we have treatment for malaria but a genetic disease yours to keep unto death... stop feigning knowledge!
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 09:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
If it is not even peer-reviewed by experts, why should I bother with it? How do I know all his data is correct or if his statistics are correct or if he made them up?

That's how science works. You should know that, do you?
His work has many references.. all you need to do is read.. God forbid you might actually learn something that challenges your conventional 'wisdom'

ones understanding of science isn't flawed simply because they are a doctor of physics or a doctor of biology.. all the sciences are unified and incorporated.. no field in science is a monolith!
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 09:36 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Which part of my 'impedance of one disease state for another doesn't confer genetic transcendency' do you not understand?
it is great you won't die of malaria but you'll die of sickle cell... frankly we have treatment for malaria but a genetic disease yours to keep unto death... stop feigning knowledge!
You are surely not a doctor, are you?
Do you know the difference between sickle cell TRAIT vs sickle cell DISEASE?

The 2nd progeny is heterozygous, not homozygous. Because of this, he has no disease, merely sickle cell trait and can function as well as any normal person (there is no "impedance of one state for another"). Because of the mutation, he can survive in a malaria infested area. He does not have any disease, only trait. A person without the mutation, will die if infected. It is a beneficial mutation. The trait is beneficial, which is why the disease, in the homozygous state, will always be with us.

I am not your professor. Not to be harsh, but arguing evolution with you is pointless as you clearly do not understand the fundamentals.

Evolution is a fact, it has reached consensus in EVERY major university, EVERY major science organization, and EVERY major natural history museum on Earth. EVERY major branch in supports it (biology, geology, anthropology, genetics, you name it) Is it that lying atheists scientists (and many theists ones as well) from all corners of the global are just smarter than people like yourself and somehow able occupied all these prominent scientific positions? Or maybe it is the truth? Think about it.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 09:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
His work has many references.. all you need to do is read.. God forbid you might actually learn something that challenges your conventional 'wisdom'

ones understanding of science isn't flawed simply because they are a doctor of physics or a doctor of biology.. all the sciences are unified and incorporated.. no field in science is a monolith!
Did doesn't matter if he has thousands of references, it still needs to be peer-reviewed by experts to be published, and than peer-reviewed by other scientists after publication. Regardless, my expertise is not in statistics or informatics or whatever this professor wrote in.

Your understanding of science is flawed because a single scientist, especially one like myself who does not have expertise in statistics, cannot be expected to read every journal known to exist on anti-evolutionism in statistics and informatics. Neither do I have the credible expertise to critique his paper. I, at a certain level, depend on the unbiased experts and then on the general consensus. The general consensus is that the guy is a joker.
Evolution still reigns. Besides, we have the fossils. We win.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 09:49 PM
Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine View Post
Which part of my 'impedance of one disease state for another doesn't confer genetic transcendency' do you not understand?
it is great you won't die of malaria but you'll die of sickle cell... frankly we have treatment for malaria but a genetic disease yours to keep unto death... stop feigning knowledge!
You are surely not a doctor, are you?
Do you not know the difference between sickle cell TRAIT vs sickle cell DISEASE?

The 2nd progeny is heterozygous, not homozygous. Because of this, he has no disease, merely sickle cell trait and can function as well as any normal person (there is no "impedance of one state for another" as you say). Because of the mutation, he can survive in a malaria infested area. He does not have any disease, only trait. A person without the mutation, will die if infected. It is a beneficial mutation. The trait is beneficial, which is why the disease, in the homozygous state, will always be with us.

I am not your professor. Not to be harsh, but arguing evolution with you is pointless as you clearly do not understand the fundamentals.

Evolution is a fact, it has reached consensus in EVERY major university, EVERY major science organization, and EVERY major natural history museum on Earth. EVERY major branch in supports it (biology, geology, anthropology, genetics, you name it) Is it that lying atheists scientists (and many theists ones as well) from all corners of the global are just smarter than people like yourself and somehow able occupied all these prominent scientific positions? Or maybe it is the truth? Think about it.
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 09:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
You are surely not a doctor, are you?
Do you know the difference between sickle cell TRAIT vs sickle cell DISEASE?

The 2nd progeny is heterozygous, not homozygous. Because of this, he has no disease, merely sickle cell trait and can function as well as any normal person (there is no "impedance of one state for another"). Because of the mutation, he can survive in a malaria infested area. He does not have any disease, only trait. A person without the mutation, will die if infected. It is a beneficial mutation. The trait is beneficial, which is why the disease, in the homozygous state, will always be with us.
People with sickle cell trait don't present with disease? that is certainly news to me
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB....asp?Doi=19703

Massive Gross Hematuria in a Sickle Cell Trait Patient with Renal Papillary Necrosis

Renal Medullary Carcinoma in an Adolescent With Sickle Cell Trait
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/103/2/e22

further Malaria can't survive in either whether carrier of the trait or manifesting the actual disease.. so again what is your point?

I am not your professor. Not to be harsh, but arguing evolution with you is pointless as you clearly do not understand the fundamentals.
here we agree indeed... I like the prof portion.. you are more of a board jester?

Evolution is a fact, it has reached consensus in EVERY major university, EVERY major science organization, and EVERY major natural history museum on Earth. EVERY major branch in supports it (biology, geology, anthropology, genetics, you name it) Is it that lying atheists scientists (and many theists ones as well) from all corners of the global are just smarter than people like yourself and somehow able occupied all these prominent scientific positions? Or maybe it is the truth? Think about it.

You keep saying it is a fact over and over.. why not put your money where your mouth is? you have an ape, you have labs, you know how to use vectors ergo liposomes or e-coli, how about we see some amazing transofmration in lieu of drivel?
I don't write to get acknowledgement least of which from your ilk.. you as if an authority figure a gamut of vacuous non subject related comments won't really daunt me into joining your league either..
Being a true scientist above all confers some humility on oneself and an open mind that is ready for challenges..

you keep your convictions like a religious zealot who spews ineffectual rhetoric.. see how that fares!
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 10:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Did doesn't matter if he has thousands of references, it still needs to be peer-reviewed by experts to be published, and than peer-reviewed by other scientists after publication. Regardless, my expertise is not in statistics or informatics or whatever this professor wrote in.

Your understanding of science is flawed because a single scientist, especially one like myself who does not have expertise in statistics, cannot be expected to read every journal known to exist on anti-evolutionism in statistics and informatics. Neither do I have the credible expertise to critique his paper. I, at a certain level, depend on the unbiased experts and then on the general consensus. The general consensus is that the guy is a joker.
Evolution still reigns. Besides, we have the fossils. We win.
a few threads ago, you wanted just 'one' article, I have provided you with one of many actually, which you are inept at best at critiquing using the scientific method... at this stage you can take your self-aggrandizing and use it on someone who might be impressed with it..

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 10:39 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
People with sickle cell trait don't present with disease? that is certainly news to me
http://content.karger.com/ProdukteDB....asp?Doi=19703
Massive Gross Hematuria in a Sickle Cell Trait Patient with Renal Papillary Necrosis
Renal Medullary Carcinoma in an Adolescent With Sickle Cell Trait
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...full/103/2/e22
Whoa, you found TWO case studies in which a person with sickle cell trait happened to have renal papillary necrosis and renal medullary carcinoma.
Geez, I guess those TWO cases are enough to get the whole gene selected out (despite it's benefits against malaria) and disprove evolution!!! Are you for real?

You keep saying it is a fact over and over..
I will, as you can't prove me wrong. Evolution has ruled for 150 years. It rules all the major science universities, all the major organizations on Earth. You ask for evidence, it has fossils, molecular clocks, radiometrics. Why is it, after 150 years, you kind lack the ability to push your type of anti-evolutionist ideas into the forefront of science, even when you think it is true?
Evolution is part of science. It is a theory (do you know what THAT means?) AND A FACT, like atomic theory, the theory of gravity, theory of friction, germ theory and so on.
What do you have?

you have an ape, you have labs, you know how to use vectors ergo liposomes or e-coli, how about we see some amazing transofmration in lieu of drivel?
Again, go back to school, ask you professors why this experiment using an ape is a dumb way to prove evolution. Maybe stop by the professor teaching paleontology and realize you don't need to use an ape and just look at the fossil record. BTW, in case you didn't know, evolution has been proven with e coli (or what you guys try to split as "microevolution.")

Being a true scientist above all confers some humility on oneself and an open mind that is ready for challenges..
Scientists know exactly what will disprove evolution. It has never been found. Evolution is reinforced by biology, geology, anthropology, the study of radiometrics, all the disciplines of science, yet you hopelessly attempt to use science against evolution. Science supports evolution, always has for past 150 years.
Reply

Converse02
08-18-2008, 10:51 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
a few threads ago, you wanted just 'one' article, I have provided you with one of many actually, which you are inept at best at critiquing using the scientific method... at this stage you can take your self-aggrandizing and use it on someone who might be impressed with it..

cheers
LOL. Fine, you are correct and evolution is false. This paper and surely many others disprove evolution. Us lying atheists (and a few theists) just happen to be smarter and able to rule all the scientific universities, journals, organizations, and science disciplines. Archaeopteryx, Tiktaalik, and hominids, all forgeries. We purposely ignore these papers that are coming in by the boat-loads (from great theistic and prominent scientists like Dermott J. Mullan), you guys are just inepts at pushing your ideas to the forefront of science. The real answer is "Goddidit." Teach the controversy!

Come back when you actually learn what evolution is.
Reply

Abdu-l-Majeed
08-18-2008, 11:01 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
LOL. Fine, you are correct and evolution is false. This paper and surely many others disprove evolution. Us lying atheists (and a few theists) just happen to be smarter and able to rule all the scientific universities, journals, organizations, and science disciplines. Archaeopteryx, Tiktaalik, and hominids, all forgeries. We purposely ignore these papers that are coming in by the boat-loads (from great theistic and prominent scientists like Dermott J. Mullan), you guys are just inepts at pushing your ideas to the forefront of science. The real answer is "Goddidit." Teach the controversy!

Come back when you actually learn what evolution is.
Isn't this a logical fallacy? :D
Reply

جوري
08-18-2008, 11:08 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Whoa, you found TWO case studies in which a person with sickle cell trait happened to have renal papillary necrosis and renal medullary carcinoma.
Geez, I guess those TWO cases are enough to get the whole gene selected out (despite it's benefits against malaria) and disprove evolution!!! Are you for real?
It isn't two cases at all, how many times must I publicly embarrass you, for you to have some sense knocked into you? You are hilarious.. here is an article about diseases that can arise in sickle cell trait,
http://sickle.bwh.harvard.edu/sickle_trait.html

which include Life-threatening complications of exercise, splenic infarction, hematuria, UTI, Polycystic kidney dz. renal medullar ca. pulmonary embolism, proliferative retinopathy etc etc..
why don't you highlight to me how substituting one disease state for another proves evolution?



I will, as you can't prove me wrong. Evolution has ruled for 150 years. It rules all the major science universities, all the major organizations on Earth. You ask for evidence, it has fossils, molecular clocks, radiometrics. Why is it, after 150 years, you kind lack the ability to push your type of anti-evolutionist ideas into the forefront of science, even when you think it is true?
You keep repeating yourself, but that doesn't assert your point considering, some very basic science eludes you, and a the conundrum is you are not even abashed by your ignorance rather enjoy putting yourself out there for ridicule with every post!

Evolution is part of science. It is a theory (do you know what THAT means?) AND A FACT, like atomic theory, the theory of gravity, theory of friction, germ theory and so on.
What do you have?
Theory: is a proposal intended to explain certain observations.. some have more weight than others.. I can drop a pen and demonstrate gravitational theories... I can't look at fossil and say that is your great uncle.. we share 50% of our genes with bananas, it doesn't make you a fruit either, although in your case it is possible
Fact: A concept whose truth can be proved

got it?

Again, go back to school, ask you professors why this experiment using an ape is a dumb way to prove evolution. Maybe stop by the professor teaching paleontology and realize you don't need to use an ape and just look at the fossil record. BTW, in case you didn't know, evolution has been proven with e coli (or what you guys try to split as "microevolution.")
adaptation and evolution are two branches..
squam cell becoming columnar with repeated insult as a way of adaptation is different than ape being human...
I don't think having abstract thinking is dumb.. I think being unable to abjure ones beliefs based solely on logical fallacies however is!


Scientists know exactly what will disprove evolution. It has never been found. Evolution is reinforced by biology, geology, anthropology, the study of radiometrics, all the disciplines of science, yet you hopelessly attempt to use science against evolution. Science supports evolution, always has for past 150 years.
You keep saying that religiously on every thread.. repeating yourself ad nauseam veritably cements the integrity of your argument!
Reply

جوري
08-19-2008, 04:01 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
LOL. Fine, you are correct and evolution is false. This paper and surely many others disprove evolution. Us lying atheists (and a few theists) just happen to be smarter and able to rule all the scientific universities, journals, organizations, and science disciplines. Archaeopteryx, Tiktaalik, and hominids, all forgeries. We purposely ignore these papers that are coming in by the boat-loads (from great theistic and prominent scientists like Dermott J. Mullan), you guys are just inepts at pushing your ideas to the forefront of science. The real answer is "Goddidit." Teach the controversy!

Come back when you actually learn what evolution is.
selective Observation, prestigious Jargon (I am being generous-of course) and causal reductionism ... if I haven't on every thread produced points which were circumvented at best..ignored when I produced argument to the contrary, including on his very own 'lamackian evolution', whilst confusing correlation and causation with a very ailing example of how mutations confer superior genetics ..
selective Reading, adhoms, and lastly reductio ad absurdum.. How can I compete with that?..
the gent is oozing laurelses.. well because he said so just a few posts ago..

I mean how can we compete with his biochem and his 'MD', when things that are so elemental to any first year med student, like hypoxia, acidosis, dehydration etc causing a transformation in the silent sickle cell trait into a syndrome resembling sickle cell disease are as absurd (or afflicting ONLY TWO) as posing legtimate questions asking him to conciliate basic disorders that defy the very concept of natural selection or naming mutations that have caused speciation.. No, it is enough that this pundit appeals to authority to corroborate his points. while mocking the research of others, I mean it is too beneath him... I mean what more could we ask for?

Indeed.. we should go away and come back when we can match you in wit and accomplishment-- hats off to you!
Reply

Azy
08-19-2008, 10:22 AM
I don't want to start another argument but it does seem like you're being purposefully evasive because it's clear what his point is.

The first line of the page you posted states :
"Sickle cell trait usually is not regarded as a disease state because it has complications that are either uncommon or mild. Nevertheless, under unusual circumstances serious morbidity or mortality can result".

If it provided benefit in 99% of cases and was detrimental in 1% it's obvious that it would persist.

format_quote Originally Posted by Skye
Evoltuion is not demonstrable!
I'm afraid it is. The fossil record shows that life has gradually changed since the Earth came to be. This is enough to prove Evolution has happened, though what I think you're arguing against is how it happened. You can poke holes in any and all proposals for the genetic basis of it if you see fit, but that doesn't make a single bit of difference.

Whether it was God changing things a bit at a time or it was by natural selection or another mechanism doesn't change the fact that it has happened.

(this is a bit off topic by the way, being an atheist doesn't necessarily mean holding evolution as truth)
Reply

Converse02
08-19-2008, 11:07 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
how many times must I publicly embarrass you, for you to have some sense knocked into you? You are hilarious
It's my third day here. Please reread my first post http://www.islamicboard.com/989599-post143.html

I greeted Muslims and merely explained why I, as an atheist, do not think life is all chance. I think that's pretty reasonable. What do I get?
Having a Muslim's very first question directed to me being "how does 'natural selection' reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions?" What the?!

Skye, see your own quote above. Publicly embarrass me? Knock some sense into me? Getting laugh at?

My old responses were offensive, which is inexcusable. For that, I apologize. But you have in many ways provoked me into hurling insults and hurt feeling back.

Why?

You're a veteran poster, at 6000+ posts, with a positive rep. Is this what I am to expect from Muslims?
Reply

Abdu-l-Majeed
08-19-2008, 11:09 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
You're a veteran poster, at 6000+ posts, with a positive rep. Is this what I am to expect from Muslims?
This tends to a logical fallacy. :-))
Reply

Converse02
08-19-2008, 11:17 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Abdu-l-Majeed
This tends to a logical fallacy. :-))
You got me there. Probably "hasty generalization." LOL.
Reply

جوري
08-19-2008, 11:02 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I don't want to start another argument but it does seem like you're being purposefully evasive because it's clear what his point is.

The first line of the page you posted states :
"Sickle cell trait usually is not regarded as a disease state because it has complications that are either uncommon or mild. Nevertheless, under unusual circumstances serious morbidity or mortality can result".
Indeed, and Malaria is a dz state --schizont infected Rbcs which like afore mentioned causes -- such as hypoxia, acidosis, high altitude etc cause the RBC's to go into a state similar to that of fulminant sickle cell.. i.e disabling the schizonts from surviving.. thus substituting one disease state for another doesn't confer immunity or superior genetics.. else we'd all be lining up at pfizer asking for vectors to transoform our normal hemoglobin to the carrier trait in case we deisre a leave of absence to the serengeti!
It is serendipitous that folks already in an ailing state not succumb to a superimposed infection..

If it provided benefit in 99% of cases and was detrimental in 1% it's obvious that it would persist.
see above reply and try to browse some credible journals before you hurl a reply!

I'm afraid it is. The fossil record shows that life has gradually changed since the Earth came to be. This is enough to prove Evolution has happened, though what I think you're arguing against is how it happened. You can poke holes in any and all proposals for the genetic basis of it if you see fit, but that doesn't make a single bit of difference.
Don't be so afraid.. you are after all as smart as you are educated!

Whether it was God changing things a bit at a time or it was by natural selection or another mechanism doesn't change the fact that it has happened.
That is a general statement and isn't focused on anything in specific...

(this is a bit off topic by the way, being an atheist doesn't necessarily mean holding evolution as truth)

OK
Reply

جوري
08-19-2008, 11:11 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
It's my third day here. Please reread my first post http://www.islamicboard.com/989599-post143.html

I greeted Muslims and merely explained why I, as an atheist, do not think life is all chance. I think that's pretty reasonable. What do I get?
Having a Muslim's very first question directed to me being "how does 'natural selection' reconcile trinucleotide repeat expansions?" What the?!

Skye, see your own quote above. Publicly embarrass me? Knock some sense into me? Getting laugh at?

My old responses were offensive, which is inexcusable. For that, I apologize. But you have in many ways provoked me into hurling insults and hurt feeling back.

Why? ..

You're a veteran poster, at 6000+ posts, with a positive rep. Is this what I am to expect from Muslims?
I am not sure what your expectations are from Muslims?.. but if you write with vehemence be prepared to back it up with something other than a logical fallacy--millions of books written by millions of people on a particular subject doesn't confer absolution

millions of books written by Doctors and Scholars in the field of religion in Judaism, Islam, Christianity etc doesn't inevitably proove to you that God exists, because at the very crux of the argument is something visceral.
You can write a million article involving deductive reasoning from a general principle to a necessary effect; but it isn't supported by fact..

You are filling in the blanks based on a premise that is assumed to be true and from which a conclusion or several conclusions can be drawn..

If you can accept that much, then I reckon your stay at any forum, will be alot more pleasing, and would foster better understanding for you than it has been for you for the last three days!

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-19-2008, 11:31 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I am not sure what your expectations are from Muslims?.. but if you write with vehemence be prepared to back it up with something other than a logical fallacy
I humbly do not see myself as the first to write with vehemence. If I am mistaken, I apologize. Regardless, asking a new person about trinucleotide repeats, a person whom you have never met, is rather odd. If you have questions about it, I kindly suggest you ask a knowledgeable professor who you trust or read on it. They will probably answer better than me and you can't accused them on googling it 20 mins ago, like you did me. I answered TNRs question regardless.

millions of books written by millions of people on a particular subject doesn't confer absolution
You are quite correct. The scientists have more than words, they have empirical evidence in the form of fossils in strata of rock, radiometric evidence, molecular clocks, agricultural studies, microbiological studies, recorded genetic changes in animals over several generation...need I go on?

millions of books written by Doctors and Scholars in the field of religion in Judaism, Islam, Christianity etc doesn't inevitably proove to you that God exists, because at the very crux of the argument is something visceral.
What evidence to you have it is visceral? Judism, Islam, Christianity are not sciences, they are religions. There is no empirical evidence for them that I am aware of. There is empirical evidence for evolution.

Lastly, I have read your article
Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth
Dermott J. Mullan, mullan@bartol.udel.edu

The article concerns abiogenesis, not evolution. It therefore does not disprove Darwinian evolution by natural selection. Care to try again?
Reply

جوري
08-19-2008, 11:47 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
I humbly do not see myself as the first to write with vehemence. If I am mistaken, I apologize. Regardless, asking a new person about trinucleotide repeats, a person whom you have never met, is rather odd. If you have questions about it, I kindly suggest you ask a knowledgeable professor who you trust or read on it. They will probably answer better than me and you can't accused them on googling it 20 mins ago, like you did me. I answered TNRs question regardless.
You answered incorrectly, and I am not looking for a credible reply from you.. it is what we call a rhetorical q... why is it so unusual to ask you a q based on beliefs that you have shared? are your beliefs above scrutiny?


You are quite correct. The scientists have more than words, they have empirical evidence in the form of fossils in strata of rock, radiometric evidence, molecular clocks, agricultural studies, microbiological studies, recorded genetic changes in animals over several generation...need I go on?
empirical evidence is derived from experiment and observation rather than theory and that is the actual definition.. if it were empirical it would be astonishingly reproducible it is that simple.. throwing random terms out doesn't sweeten the deal I assure you..


What evidence to you have it is visceral? Judism, Islam, Christianity are not sciences, they are religions. There is no empirical evidence for them that I am aware of. There is empirical evidence for evolution.
What is your understanding of the term visceral?

Lastly, I have read your article
Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth
Dermott J. Mullan, mullan@bartol.udel.edu

The article concerns abiogenesis, not evolution. It therefore does not disprove Darwinian evolution by natural selection. Care to try again?
You haven't read or skimmed it at best.. but maybe visited Dawkin to see what he thought of it, as I have read this testimony before from another atheist.. in fact it does deal with the probability of speciation using what we know of evolution, using mathematical equations for each variable, i.e life on earth, which was given quite an exponential increase to accomadate all possibilities, the time when out sun made life favorable, another variable for first ascertained fossils, plus using the smallest components possible less than that of known viruses and anyone with basic level understanding of visuses will tell you, that they are not considered living organisms rather need a surrogate to foster their function, be that as it may to allow for that positive change over the centuries .. and by positive I mean every few centuries or so a new specie evolves to acquiesce to its environment...

would I like to try again? I don't know, I do bore quickly when people don't meet me on a level!

cheers
Reply

Trumble
08-20-2008, 06:43 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I don't know, I do bore quickly when people don't meet me on a level!
Were you born that arrogant, or did you actually have to study somewhere? :rollseyes
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جوري
08-20-2008, 04:23 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Trumble
Were you born that arrogant, or did you actually have to study somewhere? :rollseyes
That is news to me--all those who know me 'in the real world' consider me humble, dependable, honest, compassionate and a dear friend.. 70% of my friends are non-Muslim!..

perhaps this is just your own perspective?.. which of course you are entitled to! :)

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-20-2008, 07:19 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You answered incorrectly, and I am not looking for a credible reply from you.. it is what we call a rhetorical q... why is it so unusual to ask you a q based on beliefs that you have shared? are your beliefs above scrutiny?
1. You say I have answered incorrectly the TNRs question, but failed to explain why.
2. My beliefs are not above scrutiny. Evolution is not merely a belief, it is a belief reinforced by science and empirical evidence. You can scrutinize it, but empirical evidence will reveal it to be a fact.

empirical evidence is derived from experiment and observation rather than theory and that is the actual definition.. if it were empirical it would be astonishingly reproducible it is that simple.. throwing random terms out doesn't sweeten the deal I assure you..
I did not say empirical evidence is derived from theory. Empirical evidence supports a theory, and the theory of evolution, like the germ and atomic theory, has plenty of it.

You haven't read or skimmed it at best..
This tends to the logical fallacy of subjectivism. How do you know I haven't read it or just skimmed it. I was able to debunked it.
1.The paper is on abiogenesis, not evolution. It doesn't disprove evolution.
2.The paper is on "Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth." His probability is NOT ZERO. Given how large the universe is (or even larger, near infinite multiverse is you follow modern physics), he PROVES that abiogenesis is possible.
3. No evolutionist is saying the first primitive cell was created by being randomly assembled. We are saying it was assembled by Darwinian evolution, which includes non-random natural selection. This is perhaps the most misunderstood part of evolution.

but maybe visited Dawkin to see what he thought of it, as I have read this testimony before from another atheist..
1. This tends to the logical fallacy of "poisoning the well." Just because Dawkins said it, it doesn't mean it is wrong. You are shooting the messenger, not the message.
2. Just because you saw the argument before, doesn't me I got it from a Dawkins site. This is another logical fallacy.

in fact it does deal with the probability of speciation
Oh please. Look at the title of the article.

i.e life on earth, which was given quite an exponential increase to accomadate all possibilities,
Accommodate all possibilities on Earth. Earth is not the only planet in the universe (or multiverse, if you follow modern physics. If, by chance, life did not arise on Earth, it may have arisen somewhere else in the cosmos, by chance. We were clearly one of the lucky ones.


plus using the smallest components possible less than that of known viruses...need a surrogate to foster their function
Our current theory of abiogenesis is that life arose from a self-replicating molecule, which is even has smaller components than a virus. A self-replicating molecule like RNA does not need a surrogate.

would I like to try again? I don't know, I do bore quickly when people don't meet me on a level!
cheers
Sure.
Reply

Converse02
08-20-2008, 07:40 PM
just to clarify, RNA doesn't self-replicate. I meant the RNA world hypothesis, but that is really to long to explain.
Reply

جوري
08-20-2008, 10:13 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
1. You say I have answered incorrectly the TNRs question, but failed to explain why.
I have in fact explained why in each subsequent post.. if you'll bother scroll!
2. My beliefs are not above scrutiny. Evolution is not merely a belief, it is a belief reinforced by science and empirical evidence. You can scrutinize it, but empirical evidence will reveal it to be a fact.
Again, empirical evidence means that it is derived from experiment and observation rather than theory.. don't be redundant and wonder where one failed to explain why!


I did not say empirical evidence is derived from theory. Empirical evidence supports a theory, and the theory of evolution, like the germ and atomic theory, has plenty of it.
And I said the theory of evolution denotes a concept that is not yet verified but that if true would explain certain facts or phenomena.. to have empirical evidence is to make it reproducible, especially if you have the technology to do so!


This tends to the logical fallacy of subjectivism. How do you know I haven't read it or just skimmed it. I was able to debunked it.
simple.. in order to debunk something you have to give a point by point counter rebuttal, not merely state this is about abiogenesis!

1.The paper is on abiogenesis, not evolution. It doesn't disprove evolution.
2.The paper is on "Probabilities of randomly assembling a primitive cell on Earth." His probability is NOT ZERO. Given how large the universe is (or even larger, near infinite multiverse is you follow modern physics), he PROVES that abiogenesis is possible.
The paper speaks of the impossibility of evolution occurring as conjectured given the exact same variables used to enforce the theory!


3. No evolutionist is saying the first primitive cell was created by being randomly assembled. We are saying it was assembled by Darwinian evolution, which includes non-random natural selection. This is perhaps the most misunderstood part of evolution.
Yes again and again, you speak of non-random but fail to give verifiable account of such incidents.. in fact I have gone ahead and given you the majority of known mutations to make your google search easier, and you have failed to provide one example.. the hlf example you have given was os sickle cell trait and we have all seen how well that went down!

1. This tends to the logical fallacy of "poisoning the well." Just because Dawkins said it, it doesn't mean it is wrong. You are shooting the messenger, not the message.
2. Just because you saw the argument before, doesn't me I got it from a Dawkins site. This is another logical fallacy.
Indeed but you have failed to stand by your argument with something of substance, again merely saying so, doesn't make it so.. further, when one expresses how well-educated they are in a particular field, it is best to teach other and demonstrate it in a scholarly fashion.. don't you think?


Oh please. Look at the title of the article.


Accommodate all possibilities on Earth. Earth is not the only planet in the universe (or multiverse, if you follow modern physics. If, by chance, life did not arise on Earth, it may have arisen somewhere else in the cosmos, by chance. We were clearly one of the lucky ones.
That is a nonsequitur and has no relevance whatsoever to what preceded it-- we are discussing laws on earth because that is where we are.. there is no point discussing possibilities on unexplored places is there? From what preface would you draw conclusions?


Our current theory of abiogenesis is that life arose from a self-replicating molecule, which is even has smaller components than a virus. A self-replicating molecule like RNA does not need a surrogate.
Really? to replicate DNA or its RNA will need a host, it is an extremely intricate and complicated process in fact all accounted for in Dr. Mullan's paper .. here is a little short vid to inform you of exactly how the process takes place

Media Tags are no longer supported



if you know differently, then by all means I invite you to demonstrate it to us!

cheers
Reply

جوري
08-20-2008, 10:18 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
just to clarify, RNA doesn't self-replicate. I meant the RNA world hypothesis, but that is really to long to explain.
lol.. glad you came to that realization!.. I am interested in that explanation.. I'd like it to be synthesized, with the same fidelity that I exhibit when demonstrating why something is possible or impossible as well flawed!

cheers
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JimMorrison
08-21-2008, 07:55 AM
I am Athéist and i am a spiritual person.
Reply

Azy
08-21-2008, 02:15 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
Don't be so afraid.. you are after all as smart as you are educated!
Thank you very much :D
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
That is a general statement and isn't focused on anything in specific...
You just need to substitute 'evolution' for 'it' in that sentence.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
in fact it does deal with the probability of speciation
Talking about the probability of speciation is as useful as talking about the probability of humans developing motorised transport. I don't know if you recall our discussion with MustafaMc in which he notes that he is aware of speciation in his own field of work, within a ~50 year timescale.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
it is an extremely intricate and complicated process in fact all accounted for in Dr. Mullan's paper
Dr Mullan's paper is posted frequently in these discussions and while his mathematical calculations may be sound they have no bearing on the discussion itself since they are addressing an imagined argument.

Whether I know how life came about, Converse02 knows, anyone knows, or anyone will ever know is irrelevant. Random assembly is not in the running as a plausible hypothesis so disproving it has no bearing on whether abiogenesis occurred or is likely to occur.

(In which journal is his article published? PCID, which has published a few dozen papers by a small handful of authors on thinly veiled intelligent design topics... and you talk down to me about reliable sources :rollseyes )
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Gator
08-21-2008, 03:16 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Dr Mullan's paper is posted frequently in these discussions and while his mathematical calculations may be sound they have no bearing on the discussion itself since they are addressing an imagined argument.
Just for atheists. Thx.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oaAdXdkiifM&feature=user
Reply

جوري
08-21-2008, 03:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
Thank you very much :D
I am glad you can recognize sarcasm when it comes to contact with you =)

You just need to substitute 'evolution' for 'it' in that sentence.
Talking about the probability of speciation is as useful as talking about the probability of humans developing motorised transport. I don't know if you recall our discussion with MustafaMc in which he notes that he is aware of speciation in his own field of work, within a ~50 year timescale.
MustafaMC's speciation in his cotton breeding requires that he has a direct influence on such an occurrence.. It isn't a spontaneous event!
as for probability, well how else would you propose one broach the topic? by strong leaps of faith?
Dr Mullan's paper is posted frequently in these discussions and while his mathematical calculations may be sound they have no bearing on the discussion itself since they are addressing an imagined argument.
Indeed, that is what evolution is, an imagined argument! one saw bones and decided that was of his distant relative but faled to determine how experimentally!

Whether I know how life came about, Converse02 knows, anyone knows, or anyone will ever know is irrelevant. Random assembly is not in the running as a plausible hypothesis so disproving it has no bearing on whether abiogenesis occurred or is likely to occur.
You have decided it isn't a plausible hypothesis? It is as plausible as any hypothesis out there, it isn't given as much time because there are many resistant zealot verrucas who can't stand any holes punched to their belief system no matter how flawed. In fact at least Dr. Mullan's work yields to mathematics, and is exhaustive to all variables not a mere long stretch of the imagination, or using random terminology like 'mutations' but can't reconcile how with their actual given function!

(In which journal is his article published? PCID, which has published a few dozen papers by a small handful of authors on thinly veiled intelligent design topics... and you talk down to me about reliable sources :rollseyes )
I don't think you'd recognize intelligent if it stared you in the eye.. this is coming from the fellow who is willing to go so far to prove a moot point about a mutation completely unabashed, he would rather make up his own pathophysiology of a known disease process!
stop insinuating yourself like waldo in a topic, merely to save face or your kin, without a sliver of background or understanding of the material discussed!
I must have told you at least ten times, How I hate to have my time wasted!

cheers
Reply

جوري
08-21-2008, 04:20 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Gator
That is very funny indeed.. even funnier still, if that dust bunny germinated, developed some sentience and knocked that moron down with a mallet...
But I can enjoy a chuckle from a half-wit with a webcam and plenty of free time to upload it all just the same..
Thanks :D
Reply

Converse02
08-21-2008, 05:41 PM
Therefore, with respect to other living things, the Qur’ân and Sunnah neither confirm nor deny the theory of biological evolution or the process referred to as natural selection. The question of evolution remains purely a matter of scientific enquiry. The theory of evolution must stand or fall on its own scientific merits – and that means the physical evidence that either confirms the theory or conflicts with it.

Skye, I am interested, why do you think the scientific community of the world supports evolution and not your version of events? For that matter, what is you version of events?
Reply

جوري
08-21-2008, 06:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Therefore, with respect to other living things, the Qur’ân and Sunnah neither confirm nor deny the theory of biological evolution or the process referred to as natural selection. The question of evolution remains purely a matter of scientific enquiry. The theory of evolution must stand or fall on its own scientific merits – and that means the physical evidence that either confirms the theory or conflicts with it.

Skye, I am interested, why do you think the scientific community of the world supports evolution and not your version of events? For that matter, what is you version of events?
Your first paragraph sums it best actually.. to me, to be a scientist is to be driven purely by the love of science, to have discipline, to cherish the refinement of it as the last of the noble professions. Those who share their vast wealth of knowledge in supporting the advancement of the individual, community and mankind only deserve respect, and it is accompanied by great humility to understand limitations, and be driven by ethics.. and still concede the lack of absolution while maintaining the capability of having an abstract thought.

Those of us who understand the scientific method.. come across what is known as the Null Hypothesis --the first thing to do when given a claim is to write the claim mathematically (if possible), and decide whether the given claim is the null or alternative hypothesis. If the given claim contains equality, or a statement of no change from the given or accepted condition, then it is the null hypothesis, otherwise, if it represents change, it is the alternative hypothesis..

when using the scientific method, we never accept the null hypothesis, we either reject it or fail to reject it.. and that alone in the vernacular defines for one, that nothing is 100% absolute.

I don't know how many scientists you've come across? But to be a scientist doesn't denote you accept things at face value or because a percentage of it believes this or that to be true.. , prior I have given an analogy of Dr. Sampson's hypothesis:

for simplicity sake, let's take Dr. John Sampson's theory of retrograde menstruation as a cause of endometriosis, seems plausible for all intensive purposes, that blood traveling backwards carrying in its midst endometrial cells, can implant itself in the vicinity, and this endometrial like tissue acts very much like the linning of the uterus, responding to hormones and may shed from where it shouldn't cause various other nuisances to millions of women-- well how does this theory reconcile for women who have retrograde menses but never develop endometriosis? or how does it reconcile it for women who develop endometriosis in the lung or the nose or the liver, far away from uterine blood? Someone else sits down and challenges the theory, states no it is spread via lymphatics, another says it is iatrogenic due to doctor error, no it is environmental, no cells can naturally morph into others as a result of hormone therapy, no it is auto-immune in origin, no it favors only hispanic women because of genetics.. Do we actually know? we can theorize, and the theories appear very plausible and by folks who have earned their place in the scientific community, but we don't peddle theories as facts and then impugn those who theorize differently...You'd be interested to know that today the theory most people accept is Dr. Sampson's, but the question marks are left in the areas that his theory fails to address!

I hope that above example paints things for you in simpler terms..
whether evolution happened as described and many concede the that one of the names of God 'Al'baree' denotes the evolver or whether each specie is its own with no change in morphology across the millenniums.. to me God is the driving force behind it, no matter how it went down..

Lastly , science will not desist simply because a member opposes one of its theories.. science is ever correcting and very expansive. I doubt not believing in autogenesis or evolution or (*stealth viruses/possible? extrapolating creatively ) will be the death of it... I am open minded!

cheers.......
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Azy
08-21-2008, 07:25 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
MustafaMC's speciation in his cotton breeding requires that he has a direct influence on such an occurrence.. It isn't a spontaneous event!
No, we're talking about alien plants that were introduced to an area and naturally created a hybrid with the local species to create a new species which is reproductively isolated from it's 'parent' species.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
You have decided it isn't a plausible hypothesis? It is as plausible as any hypothesis out there, it isn't given as much time because there are many resistant zealot verrucas who can't stand any holes punched to their belief system no matter how flawed.
It isn't given any time because everyone agrees with Mullan!

Random assembly of millions of atoms to form a cell is so unlikely as to be practically impossible and for this reason it is not considered a plausible hypothesis for abiogenesis. All he's done is tell everyone what they already knew.
The problem is that folk such as yourself confuse his rebuttal of random assembly with a rebuttal of abiogenesis as a whole, because it suits your purposes to do so.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I must have told you at least ten times, How I hate to have my time wasted!
Makes it worth coming back each time :)
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جوري
08-21-2008, 07:45 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
No, we're talking about alien plants that were introduced to an area and naturally created a hybrid with the local species to create a new species which is reproductively isolated from it's 'parent' species.
'were introduced' is the operative word!

It isn't given any time because everyone agrees with Mullan!
I have no idea what you are trying to articulate here!

Random assembly of millions of atoms to form a cell is so unlikely as to be practically impossible and for this reason it is not considered a plausible hypothesis for abiogenesis. All he's done is tell everyone what they already knew.
more gibberish?

The problem is that folk such as yourself confuse his rebuttal of random assembly with a rebuttal of abiogenesis as a whole, because it suits your purposes to do so.
Makes it worth coming back each time :)
I wouldn't be too concerned with folk such as myself.. when there is folk such as yourself to keep the rest of us boisterously entertained with mindless drivel!



cheers
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Azy
08-21-2008, 10:32 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
'were introduced' is the operative word!
I'm guessing that when you read the sentence you chose to mentally insert 'by humans'. Not a necessary condition.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I have no idea what you are trying to articulate here!
Then you probably shouldn't continue.

Whenever your argument is dead you suddenly lose any skills of comprehension and blame your opponent.
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جوري
08-21-2008, 10:41 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
I'm guessing that when you read the sentence you chose to mentally insert 'by humans'. Not a necessary condition.
Then you probably shouldn't continue.
I am guessing you should get Mustafamc to describe the process for you yet again.. I know intellectual enemas have a way of just going through you!

Whenever your argument is dead you suddenly lose any skills of comprehension and blame your opponent.
lol.. this is coming from the guy who makes up rules in genetics, biochemistry and pathophysiology at whim.. and has the nerve to construct such a bombastic request, before his ignorance of basic science is even erased from memory!

But thank you (yet again) for adverting your psychological deficiencies in public..

cheers
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Azy
08-21-2008, 10:50 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I am guessing you should get Mustafamc to describe the process for you yet again.. I know intellectual enemas have a way of just going through you!
We're not talking only of his work, and the example I provided was not one that was produced by his work but experienced because he was in that line of work, nothing more. There are many other examples.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
lol.. this is coming from the guy who makes up rules in genetics, biochemistry and pathophysiology at whim.. and has the nerve to construct such a bombastic request, before his ignorance of basic science is even erased from memory!
Then please explain to me how disproving one hypothesis (random assembly) eliminates all the other possible hypotheses in the field of abiogenesis.
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جوري
08-21-2008, 10:58 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Azy
We're not talking only of his work, and the example I provided was not one that was produced by his work but experienced because he was in that line of work, nothing more. There are many other examples.
I could have sworn a little while ago, you only mentioned his name? Now bringing him on board is enough initiative for you to in a perfunctory fashion, deny us life altering details?

Then please explain to me how disproving one hypothesis (random assembly) eliminates all the other possible hypotheses in the field of abiogenesis.
I have never claimed that one hypothesis is a nullifier of another!-- if you'll scroll back a few posts you'll see, I clearely stated one hypothesis is as good as another! and should be measured against its own contents and individual merits especially where no reproducible statistical data can be used for ratification.. and if you scroll back some more you might actually learn something about the null hypothesis and using the scientific method before loaning any theory absolution!

cheers
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Azy
08-21-2008, 11:44 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I could have sworn a little while ago, you only mentioned his name? Now bringing him on board is enough initiative for you to in a perfunctory fashion, deny us life altering details?
If you'd like I'll make a list, but you have access to all that information yourself, so if you can't wait until tomorrow you could always put your mouse to good use. I may be brief but that is a combination of being busy and it's after midnight.
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
I have never claimed that one hypothesis is a nullifier of another!-- if you'll scroll back a few posts you'll see, I clearely stated one hypothesis is as good as another!
This paper has been dragged out in every ID discussions for the last 6 years. Bringing it up now doesn't make any difference, even if it was once a realistic alternative hypothesis that time is long gone.
You did mention speciation with regard to this paper, and as I said before, arguing the odds against it after we've seen it occur isn't very useful.
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Pygoscelis
08-22-2008, 02:17 PM
Why can't we all simply admit what we do not know?
I think that'd let research move more freely and open our minds to new ideas.
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Muezzin
08-23-2008, 01:12 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Why can't we all simply admit what we do not know?
I think that'd let research move more freely and open our minds to new ideas.
Quit being so sensible. You wanna bust the internet, guy?
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Abdu-l-Majeed
08-23-2008, 03:40 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Pygoscelis
Why can't we all simply admit what we do not know?
I think that'd let research move more freely and open our minds to new ideas.
Yeah, why don't you? :D
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Muezzin
08-24-2008, 04:52 PM
Do athiests feel victimised?

I think certain of them do. I don't particularly mind them feeling that. That's not to say I support victimising athiests.

I do mind when perceived or actual victimisation leads to the victimised seeking 'vengeance' on all who they see as culpable. Which, more often than not, includes innocent people through guilt by association.

Sort of like crazy pseudo-feminists who think feminism is a synonym for misandry, and that all men are evil because of the despicable actions of certain men in world history or their own lives.

To me, a minority of athiests seem to have a similar mindset vis-a-vis religion and religious people.

Any truth in what I'm saying, or just inane ramblings indicating a lack of Powerade?
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جوري
08-24-2008, 05:00 PM
^^agreed.. powerade might give your expressions extra oomph though..
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Pygoscelis
08-24-2008, 08:30 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Do athiests feel victimised?

I think certain of them do. I don't particularly mind them feeling that. That's not to say I support victimising athiests.

I do mind when perceived or actual victimisation leads to the victimised seeking 'vengeance' on all who they see as culpable. Which, more often than not, includes innocent people through guilt by association.

Sort of like crazy pseudo-feminists who think feminism is a synonym for misandry, and that all men are evil because of the despicable actions of certain men in world history or their own lives.

To me, a minority of athiests seem to have a similar mindset vis-a-vis religion and religious people.

Any truth in what I'm saying, or just inane ramblings indicating a lack of Powerade?
Really depends on what you mean by victimized. We atheists certainly don't face genocide or anything on that level (at least not in modern times). We really aren't discriminated against as much as many other groups either (ie, black people in the US).

That said we ARE frequently demonized (quite literally) by the religious, we are frequently told that we can't have morals (folks claim you can't be good without god), and religions frequently attempt to insert themselves into our secular societies and force their will on us (everything from stores being forced closed on Sundays in some places to tax dollars funding religious institutions and religious institutions not having to pay their fair share of taxes, to the more extreme cases such as denial of voting rights or the right to give testimony in court, etc).

Also, polls have shown in the US at least that atheists are the most distrusted and disliked group. More US citizens said they would vote for a black person, a woman, a hispanic, etc, than an atheist. The bigotry is usually understated, but it is there.

Now all that said, no, I don't feel victimized by religion. I live in one of the most secular and multi-cultural countries in the world and its really no big deal here to be whatever you happen to be (we got it all here in Toronto)
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Azy
08-25-2008, 10:21 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Muezzin
Do athiests feel victimised?
I was at a petrol station today and a guy speeds up the wrong side of the road, enters the exit lane and pulls up to the adjacent pump the wrong way. He then spends 5 minutes making a scene because they change the pumps recently and you need to operate a little electronic menu before it'll dispense, but he starts banging the pump and swearing.
The lady inside at the counter says through the loudspeaker "could the owner of the car at number 6 please turn it round".
He ignores her and carries on, and eventually she comes out and repeats her request to him in person and asks if he wants her to show him how to use the pump.

He shouts back at her, "Is it because I'm Asian?"

Anyway I don't really know why I had to share that but I suppose my point is that you could feel victimised for any number of reasons and some of them might even be your own fault.
Personally I don't feel victimised but I reckon it's a safe bet that some do whether it's justified or not, and that probably goes for any other group you can think of.
Reply

Converse02
08-26-2008, 12:28 PM
Skye,
Sampsons theory of endometriosis. Note that endometriosis is a fact. Although Sampson's theory maybe incorrect.

Darwin's theory of evolution. Note that evolution is a fact. Life evolves.
Lamarck's theory was disproven. Darwin has not.

Take germ theory, or the theory of heliocentricity. These "theories" are so substantiated they are facts. Darwin's version of evolution has reached this point.


I don't know how many scientists you've come across? But to be a scientist doesn't denote you accept things at face value or because a percentage of it believes this or that to be true.
We live in the age of the internet. We have pubmed and email. We have possible access to every scientist in every major university (depending if they want to read email from strangers). We have journals.
I am not accepting the claims of scientists at face valve or because a percentage say it is so. I am accepting because they have empirical evidence. Fossils, geology, and so on.
Darwin was the first to publish on evolution by natural selection. But Wallace discovered natural selection independently. Many scientists have discover evolution by natural selection independently from Darwin.

whether evolution happened as described and many concede the that one of the names of God 'Al'baree' denotes the evolver or whether each specie is its own with no change in morphology across the millenniums.. to me God is the driving force behind it,
Mutations are random. Ionizing radiation. DNA polymerase makes mistakes. We have DNA proofreading enzymes that do not catch the mistakes. There is no intelligent "driving force" behind it. Dawkins tried to illustrate this point in his book, "The Blind Watchmaker."

Now, you can say when DNA polymerase makes a mistake, it's not a mistake. It's God. Oh please....It's like saying the lottery or a coin toss is never random...You are simply redefining the word God as "random."

Finally, there are three theories of endometriosis I am aware of:
1. Sampson's theory
2. Theory of spread by tissue entering vasculature and/or lymphatics
3. Metaplastic theory (I believe this is the one currently en vogue).
Reply

جوري
08-26-2008, 02:55 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Skye,
Sampsons theory of endometriosis. Note that endometriosis is a fact. Although Sampson's theory maybe incorrect.
indeed as is existing-- it is a fact-- we are here! although evolution as an explanation of how we came to be may be incorrect!
Darwin's theory of evolution. Note that evolution is a fact. Life evolves.
Lamarck's theory was disproven. Darwin has not.
You can't disprove a theory.. you can however put holes in its merits.. plenty of holes have been placed in Darwins.. see previous!

Take germ theory, or the theory of heliocentricity. These "theories" are so substantiated they are facts. Darwin's version of evolution has reached this point.
see above reply!


We live in the age of the internet. We have pubmed and email. We have possible access to every scientist in every major university (depending if they want to read email from strangers). We have journals.
I am not accepting the claims of scientists at face valve or because a percentage say it is so. I am accepting because they have empirical evidence. Fossils, geology, and so on.
Darwin was the first to publish on evolution by natural selection. But Wallace discovered natural selection independently. Many scientists have discover evolution by natural selection independently from Darwin.
You keep maintaining your argumentum ad populum yet can't prove it short of to repeat yourself of the many many scientists.. enough wasting of my time-- Dressing it up with names doesn't loan it credence! Previous I have told you, there are millions of scientists who write of religion, people with PhD's and MD's, the weight of literature and number of sites it doesn't loan the argument credence when at the very crux is something intangible-- try to understand so I am not wasting time writing the same thing over and over!

Mutations are random. Ionizing radiation. DNA polymerase makes mistakes. We have DNA proofreading enzymes that do not catch the mistakes. There is no intelligent "driving force" behind it. Dawkins tried to illustrate this point in his book, "The Blind Watchmaker."

Now, you can say when DNA polymerase makes a mistake, it's not a mistake. It's God. Oh please....It's like saying the lottery or a coin toss is never random...You are simply redefining the word God as "random."

Finally, there are three theories of endometriosis I am aware of:
1. Sampson's theory
2. Theory of spread by tissue entering vasculature and/or lymphatics
3. Metaplastic theory (I believe this is the one currently en vogue).
I have already discussed all the theories on endometriosis in previous threads!-- are we merely stating the obvious?
Some mutations are random indeed like achondroplasia FGFR3-- some are inherited.. Many defy the laws of natural selection.. No mutation or Break in DNA has been known to be of benefit to man!



Now-- I have dropped this thread, because I found none of you to be worthy contenders.. I can tell when someone googles their facts du jour and when someone actually knows what they are talking about..
why not be like your good buddies here and concede that that you simply don't know-- rather than feign knowledge? we have all seen how well your sickle cell trait attempt went, and your buddy's attempt to save you? I don't have the time to drag this out for another three months!

Don't assume for me, why there are or aren't mistakes-- any abberation should merely draw your attention to how much goes right for you that you take for granted daily!
We'll go back and forth about mutations.. it is lovely, you know about them, but can't demonstrate how a single one fosters speciation..perhaps you should finish reading dawkins guide to atheism so he'll dictate to you what to write next seeing how simple reasoning eludes you!..


cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-26-2008, 11:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
although evolution as an explanation of how we came to be may be incorrect!
How? In a world of hominid fossils, and the radiometric and geological dating of them, evolution is the only reasonable explanation of how we came to be. What other possible explanation is there? God buried those fossils and played with the radioactive dating himself to make it look like we evolved?

You can't disprove a theory.. you can however put holes in its merits.. plenty of holes have been placed in Darwins..
Lamarck's theory of evolution is disproven! None of the so called "holes" in Darwin's theory disproves it. Even the paper you gave me doesn't disprove it.
Your "Goddidit" theory is breathtaking inanity.

You keep maintaining your argumentum ad populum yet can't prove it short of to repeat yourself of the many many scientists..
Fossils in strata of rock is not "argumentum ad populum." We have the fossils. We win.
Darwinian evolutionists predicted the existence of Tiktaalik, the feathered dinosaur, and hominids before they were found. Science is the true prophecy.


Previous I have told you, there are millions of scientists who write of religion, people with PhD's and MD's,
Religion is NOT a science. There is NO empirical evidence of God. Millions of PhD's and MD's can write about magical elves, there is NO empirical evidence of elves either.
There is empirical evidence for Darwinian evolution!!!

Some mutations are random indeed like achondroplasia FGFR3-- some are inherited.. Many defy the laws of natural selection.. No mutation or Break in DNA has been known to be of benefit to man!
This gross misunderstanding of evolution. No mutation defies the laws of natural selection, you simply do not understand natural selection.
Many mutations are known to benefit man. I just named how sickle cell trait, which can result from a mutation, can lead to malaria resistance.
Also, by admitting some mutations are random, you are contradicting yourself earlier when you said God's hand in at play in all of this. Is it random or is it God?


Now-- I have dropped this thread, because I found none of you to be worthy contenders..
Nice excuse. Just admit you lost.
I've been saying, why don't you go to Harvard, Oxford, or your local college and debate with the professor of the biology/geology department? Forget that, just ask a bio undergrad. You will be owned.

We'll go back and forth about mutations.. it is lovely, you know about them, but can't demonstrate how a single one fosters speciation
No one says it's a single mutation. Evolution is over millions of years. Many mutations over time lead to speciation. How can it NOT result in speciation?
Take a tiger and a lion. They can breed, but you get an animal with genetic defects. They are an example of an animal that shared a common ancestor and are starting to speciate.
Animals off the islands of Africa are similar to the mainland ones, but different species? How did that happen? There are fish east and west of central america are similar, but different species. If you learn about evolution, you will know how. Read some Darwin.

perhaps you should finish reading dawkins guide to atheism so he'll dictate to you what to write next seeing how simple reasoning eludes you!
This tends to the logically fallacy of "poisoning the well." You have not shown how Dawkins is incorrect. You are shooting the messenger, not the message.
Read Dawkins. He's one of the world's experts on evolution and atheism.
Reply

جوري
08-26-2008, 11:26 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
How? In a world of hominid fossils, and the radiometric and geological dating of them, evolution is the only reasonable explanation of how we came to be. What other possible explanation is there? God buried those fossils and played with the radioactive dating himself to make it look like we evolved?
Ummm trying different species that have gone extinct.. it isn't really that mind boggling?

Lamarck's theory of evolution is disproven! None of the so called "holes" in Darwin's theory disproves it. Even the paper you gave me doesn't disprove it.
Your "Goddidit" theory is breathtaking inanity.
You must believe then that black people are indeed a transitional form between apes and humans as per Darwin!


Fossils in strata of rock is not "argumentum ad populum." We have the fossils. We win.
Darwinian evolutionists predicted the existence of Tiktaalik, the feathered dinosaur, and hominids before they were found. Science is the true prophecy.
I don't understand what having fossils has to do with existence? perhaps you can elaborate on that?


Religion is NOT a science. There is NO empirical evidence of God. Millions of PhD's and MD's can write about magical elves, there is NO empirical evidence of elves either.
There is empirical evidence for Darwinian evolution!!!
How many times must I define empirical for you? is that you can't understand or unwilling to learn?

This gross misunderstanding of evolution. No mutation defies the laws of natural selection, you simply do not understand natural selection.
Many mutations are known to benefit man. I just named how sickle cell trait, which can result from a mutation, can lead to malaria resistance.
Also, by admitting some mutations are random, you are contradicting yourself earlier when you said God's hand in at play in all of this. Is it random or is it God?
And I just told you how sickle cell trait is a mere substitution of one disease state for another so one doesn't succumb to a super infection -- Perhaps you can name a few more.. say one that turns rabbits into elephants?


Nice excuse. Just admit you lost.
I've been saying, why don't you go to Harvard, Oxford, or your local college and debate with the professor of the biology/geology department? Forget that, just ask a bio undergrad. You will be owned.
lol.. How have I lost?
I have a B.S/M.S/M.D--
mu under grad was in molecular bio.. my thesis for my M.S was in Genomic fingerprinting.. what exactly can an under grad tell me that I can't comprehend on my own?

No one says it's a single mutation. Evolution is over millions of years. Many mutations over time lead to speciation. How can it NOT result in speciation?
Take a tiger and a lion. They can breed, but you get an animal with genetic defects. They are an example of an animal that shared a common ancestor and are starting to speciate.
I have already enclosed a paper on known mutations and the improbability of sharing an ancestor over millions and billions of years and its ability to speciate.. all the variables of our known universe are there, perhaps you can rebut it with something of substance? . when/if you do --I'll make sure I'll read it
Animals off the islands of Africa are similar to the mainland ones, but different species? How did that happen? There are fish east and west of central america are similar, but different species. If you learn about evolution, you will know how. Read some Darwin.
how you tickle me!


This tends to the logically fallacy of "poisoning the well." You have not shown how Dawkins is incorrect. You are shooting the messenger, not the message.
Read Dawkins. He's one of the world's experts on evolution and atheism.
You have failed to engage your understanding of Dawkin.. the same way you fail to synthesize your understanding of evolution.. I am not impressed by names but by substantiated logic!

honestly it took me a total of four minutes to write this.. that is how much time needs to be dedicated to you!

cheers
Reply

Converse02
08-26-2008, 11:48 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Skye Ephémérine
lol.. How have I lost?
I have a B.S/M.S/M.D--
mu under grad was in molecular bio.. my thesis for my M.S was in Genomic fingerprinting.. what exactly can an under grad tell me that I can't comprehend on my own?
Even an undergrad can tell you that Darwinian evolution is a fact and show you the empirical evidence to prove it.

Why don't you go back to where you got your B.S./M.S./M.D. and tell your professors and colleagues you don't except evolution so they can set up back on the correct path instead of arguing it over the islamicforums. If you feel you are disproven evolution, why didn't you do your thesis on it or publish a paper on it or something...lol, fat chance at that.

And I just told you how sickle cell trait is a mere substitution of one disease state for another so one doesn't succumb to a super infection --
Not all people with sickle cell trait have symptoms. Not all are in a "disease state."
Reply

جوري
08-26-2008, 11:56 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Converse02
Even an undergrad can tell you that Darwinian evolution is a fact and show you the empirical evidence to prove it.

Why don't you go back to where you got your B.S./M.S./M.D. and tell your professors and colleagues you don't except evolution so they can set up back on the correct path instead of arguing it over the islamicforums. If you feel you are disproven evolution, why didn't you do your thesis on it or publish a paper on it or something...lol, fat chance at that.
I am glad you can find an undergrad who agrees with you.. it is indeed lonely when you are a free thinker and not into herd mentality ..
I have already defined what 'empirical evidence' means to you a few pages back..
luckily the folks at Johns Hopkins and Duke aren't as affected by neurosis as you appear to be..
Evolution isn't a point of interest for me.. It is a mere permutation for those not into conventional wisdom.. It really does nothing to better man kind!


Not all people with sickle cell trait have symptoms. Not all are in a "disease state."
Indeed a few paged back I have defined for you, that in order for one to be protected from Malaria in sickle cell state, one has to contract the disease.. which like Hypoxia, acidosis, high altitude etc, causes a sickle cell like disease state, whereby ones cells sickle, disabling the schizonts from surviving-- but one is then sick with a disease state like sickle cell.. so protective from Malaria.. but possible death from a a sickle like crisis.. Got it this time I hope?

still waiting on those other mutations though. that cause speciation!

cheers
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Woodrow
08-27-2008, 12:04 AM
This Merry-go-round has been damaged beyond repair. It is no longer a safe ride for Humans, kittens or elephants, so it is now shut down.

:threadclo:
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