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Ummu Sufyaan
01-11-2009, 12:31 PM
:sl:
http://www.meccho.com/Videos/Ron_Pau..._Created_Hamas
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IbnAbdulHakim
01-11-2009, 01:58 PM
*bump*
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Güven
01-11-2009, 02:04 PM
Media Tags are no longer supported

:thumbs_up
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Whatsthepoint
01-11-2009, 03:12 PM
Of course they did. If Israel hadn't turned up in 1948 the region would probably quite stable, though I don't think there'd be a Palestinian state.
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Amadeus85
01-11-2009, 03:41 PM
Israel played some part in creating Hamas. Jews wanted to create an organization with religious background which would undermine the secular and nationalistic terroristic organizations headed by Yassir Arafat.
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Whatsthepoint
01-11-2009, 03:50 PM
Originally Posted by Aaron85
Israel played some part in creating Hamas. Jews wanted to create an organization with religious background which would undermine the secular and nationalistic terroristic organizations headed by Yassir Arafat.
Thy thought wrong.
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north_malaysian
01-12-2009, 03:44 AM
the area is known as Palestine when it was under the British mandate...

if the Jews didnt "migrate" there... Palestine would achieved its independence like Syria and Lebanon...

and there would be no such thing as suicide bomber etc...
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Whatsthepoint
01-12-2009, 03:00 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
the area is known as Palestine when it was under the British mandate...

if the Jews didnt "migrate" there... Palestine would achieved its independence like Syria and Lebanon...

and there would be no such thing as suicide bomber etc...
Not necessarily. Its more probable it would have been split up between Egypt and Jordan.
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Chuck
01-12-2009, 09:22 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Not necessarily. Its more probable it would have been split up between Egypt and Jordan.
But there would be no fighting like this now.
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Fishman
01-12-2009, 09:28 PM
Originally Posted by Chuck
But there would be no fighting like this now.
:sl:
That's an interesting scenario: imagine what the world would be like if Israel never formed.
:w:
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Whatsthepoint
01-12-2009, 09:36 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
That's an interesting scenario: imagine what the world would be like if Israel never formed.
:w:
I suppose 3 dollars a gallon of oil would be considered an outrageous price..
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...
01-13-2009, 12:56 AM
Not necessarily. Its more probable it would have been split up between Egypt and Jordan.
I'm sure the Palestinians would prefer that at any rate - rather than getting kicked out to a bunch of zionists (an understatement of course)
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north_malaysian
01-13-2009, 01:10 AM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Not necessarily. Its more probable it would have been split up between Egypt and Jordan.
Erm... maybe....
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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2009, 07:21 PM
Originally Posted by north_malaysian
Erm... maybe....
Gaza was a part of Egypt and the west bank was a part of Jordan not so long ago.
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Fishman
01-13-2009, 08:21 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Not necessarily. Its more probable it would have been split up between Egypt and Jordan.
:sl:
The country that rules Egypt almost always rules Palestine as well. Palestine hardly ever existed as a separate state.
:w:
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Whatsthepoint
01-13-2009, 08:22 PM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
The country that rules Egypt almost always rules Palestine as well. Palestine hardly ever existed as a separate state.
:w:
It never has.
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Zico
01-13-2009, 08:25 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
Of course they did. If Israel hadn't turned up in 1948 the region would probably quite stable, though I don't think there'd be a Palestinian state.
Well to an extent yes I would agree. I will almost guarantee that civil wars would take its place.:)
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Fishman
01-13-2009, 10:44 PM
Originally Posted by Whatsthepoint
It never has.
:sl:
When I say 'Palestine', I am talking about the geographical area. It doesn't matter in this case whether it was called something different or populated by different people, only the geography is important.
:w:
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sister herb
01-13-2009, 11:49 PM
:sl:

If zionists really "created" Hamas, it just show what they ideology is: stupidity.

:bump1:

I have read before article about this matter.




Original article:

Good Morning, Hamas

04/03/2008

Hamas has many times proposed a cease-fire with Israel. This would mean a stop to all hostilities.

By Uri Avnery

We Israelis live in a world of ghosts and monsters. We do not conduct a war against living persons and real organizations, but against "devils and demons" which are out to destroy us. That's how it looks to us, and that's how it looks to the other side, too.

Let's try to bring this war down from virtual spheres to the solid ground of reality. There can be no reasonable policy, nor even rational discussion, if we do not escape from the realm of horrors and nightmares.

After the Hamas victory in the Palestinian elections, Gush Shalom said that we must speak with them. Here are some of the questions that were showered on me from all sides:

It is said that Hamas was created by Israel. Is that true?
Israel did not "create" Hamas, but it certainly helped it along in its initial stages.

During the first 20 years of the occupation, the Israeli leadership saw the PLO as its chief enemy. That's why it favored Palestinian organizations that, it was thought, could undermine the PLO. One example of this was Ariel Sharon's ludicrous attempt to set up Arab "village leagues" that would act as agents of the occupation.

The Israeli intelligence community, which in the last 60 years has failed almost every time in forecasting events in the Arab world, also failed this time. They believed that the emergence of an Islamic organization would weaken the secular PLO. While the military administration of the occupied territories was throwing into prison any Palestinian who engaged in political activity - even for peace - it did not touch the religious activists. The mosque was the only place where Palestinians could get together and plan political action.

This policy was, of course, based on a complete misunderstanding of Palestinian reality.

Hamas was officially founded immediately after the outbreak of the first intifada at the end of 1987. The Israeli Security Service (known as Shabak or Shin Bet) handled it with kid gloves. Only a year later did it arrest the founder, Sheik Ahmad Yassin.

It is ironic that the Israeli leadership is now supporting the PLO in the hope of undermining Hamas. There is no better evidence for the stupidity of our "experts" as far as Arab matters are concerned, stemming from both arrogance and contempt.

Why did Hamas win the elections?
There were several reasons. The main one was the growing conviction of the Palestinians that they would never get anything from the Israelis by non-violent means. After the murder of Yassir Arafat, many Palestinians believed that if they elected Mahmoud Abbas as the new president, he would get from Israel and the U.S. the things they would not give Arafat. They found out that the opposite was happening: No real negotiations, while the settlements were getting larger every day.

They told themselves: if peaceful means don't work, there is no alternative to the resistance. And if there be war, there are no braver warriors than Hamas.

Also: the corruption in the higher Fatah echelons had reached such dimensions, that the majority of Palestinians were disgusted. As long as Arafat was alive, the corruption was somehow tolerated, because everybody knew that Arafat himself was honest, and his towering importance for the national struggle overrode the shortcomings of his administration. After Arafat, tolerating the corruption became impossible. Hamas, on the other hand, was considered clean, and its leaders incorrupt. The social and educational Hamas institutions, mainly financed by Saudi Arabia, were widely respected.

The splits within Fatah also helped the Hamas candidates.

Hamas, of course, had not taken part in previous elections, but it was generally assumed - even by Hamas people themselves - that they represented only about 15-25 percent of the electorate.

Can one reasonably expect the Palestinians to overthrow Hamas themselves?
As long as the occupation goes on, there is no chance of that. An Israeli general said this week that if the Israeli army stopped operating in the West Bank, Hamas would replace Abbas there too.

The administration of Mahmoud Abbas stands on feet of clay - American and Israeli feet. If the Palestinians finally lose what confidence they still have in Abbas, his power would crumble.

But how can one reach a settlement with an organization that declares that it will never recognize Israel?
All this matter of "recognition" is nonsense, a pretext for avoiding a dialogue. We do not need "recognition" from anybody. When the United States started a dialogue with Vietnam, it did not demand to be recognized as an Anglo-Saxon, Christian and capitalist state.

If A signs an agreement with B, it means that A recognizes B. All the rest is hogwash.

And in the same matter: The fuss over the Hamas charter is reminiscent of the ruckus about the PLO charter, in its time. That was a quite unimportant document, which was used by our representatives for years as an excuse to refuse to talk with the PLO. Heaven and earth were moved to compel the PLO to annul it. Who remembers that today? The acts of today and tomorrow are important, the papers of yesterday are not.

What should we speak with Hamas about?
First of all, about a cease-fire. When a wound is bleeding, the blood loss must be stemmed before the wound itself can be treated.

Hamas has many times proposed a cease-fire, Tahidiyeh ("Quiet") in Arabic. This would mean a stop to all hostilities: Qassams and Grad rockets and mortar shells from Hamas and the other organizations, "targeted liquidations", military incursions and starvation from Israel.

The negotiations should be conducted by the Egyptians, particularly since they would have to open the border between the Gaza Strip and Sinai. Gaza must get back its freedom of communication with the world by land, sea and air.

If Hamas demands the extension of the cease-fire to the West Bank, too, this should also be discussed. That would necessitate a Hamas-Fatah-Israel trialogue.

If the cease-fire holds, what will be the next step?
An armistice, or Hudnah in Arabic.

Hamas would have a problem in signing a formal agreement with Israel, because Palestine is a Waqf - a religious endowment.

Hudnah is an alternative to peace. It is a concept deeply embedded in the Islamic tradition. Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) himself agreed a Hudnah with the rulers of Mecca, with whom he was at war after his flight from Mecca to Medina. (By the way, before the Hudnah expired, the inhabitants of Mecca adopted Islam and the prophet entered the town peacefully.) Since it has a religious sanction, its violation by Muslim believers is impossible.

A Hudnah can last for dozens of years and be extended without limit. A long Hudnah is in practice peace, if the relations between the two parties create a reality of peace.

So a formal peace is impossible?
There is a solution for this, too. Hamas has declared in the past that it does not object to Abbas conducting peace negotiations, on condition that the agreement reached is put to a plebiscite. If the Palestinian people confirm it, Hamas declared that it will accept the people's decision.

Why would Hamas accept it?
Like every Palestinian political force, Hamas aspires to power in the Palestinian state that will be set up along the 1967 borders. For that it needs to enjoy the confidence of the majority. There is no doubt whatsoever that the vast majority of the Palestinian people want a state of their own and peace. Hamas knows this well. It will do nothing that would push the majority of the people away.

And what is the place of Abbas in all this?
He should be pressured to come to an agreement with Hamas, along the lines of the earlier agreement concluded in Mecca. We believe that Israel has a clear interest in negotiating with a Palestinian government that includes the two big movements, so that the agreement reached would be accepted by almost all sections of the Palestinian people.

-- Uri Avnery, an Israeli writer and peace activist, founded the Gush Shalom movement. He had served three terms as an MP at the Knesset. This article was published by Gush Shalom.
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IslamicRevival
01-13-2009, 11:53 PM
Al Qassam Fight Back Against The IDF Cowards :)

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=mCeYd_Qb9Dw
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HKabdullah
01-14-2009, 02:16 AM
Whether or not Palestine would have been a separate state (during the carving of Muslim lands by the colonial Europeans) had the Israeli state not been formed is not significant. Palestine, for most of it's Muslim-ruled history, was what today we might call a province, if that, of larger Muslim Kingdoms or Islamic Caliphates (as anyone who is familiar with its history knows). It was never a separate Kingdom or country under Muslim rule. Many times, it was under the administration of the province of Egypt or Syria, who ever was ruling the province at the time.

However, what is significant is the rights of the Palestinians under the Isreali's now and the rights of the Palestinians under their various Muslim rulers. The difference is obvious. The Israeli's treat them inhumanely and without rights. They kill women, children, and the elderly. They restrict them in their commerce and their livelihood in order to keep them subjugated. They destroy their places of worship and their schools. They destroy their agriculture and steal their property. They restrict them from moving freely in Allah's land.

On the other hand, the first Muslim to conquer Palestine from the Christians, was Umar (Radi Allahu 'Anhu). When Umar sent Amr bin Al-As (Radi Allahu 'Anhu) and his army to Jerusalem, the Christians resisted. But when Abu Abuidah (Radi Allahu 'Anhu) joined him with his army, the besieged Christians became truly disheartened and, knowing the readiness of the Muslims to make peace, accepted negotiations. On top of this, they put out an outlandish demand: that Umar (Radi Allahu 'Anhu), the leader of the believers, himself, come to the city for the peace negotiations. This great and merciful companion of the Messenger sallallahu 'alayhi wasalaam preferred peace over havoc and destruction. Under their previous Christian rulers, both Jews and some Christians sects (which were considered heretics on the basis of theological differences) were persecuted and tortured. Umar, prepared only with a bag full of barley, a camel, and a companion. set out to Jerusalem and I will note several things in the agreement he wrote: That he gauranteed peace of life and property for all it's inhabitants, peace to their church, cross, sick, healthy and to followers of all religions; that no cross be desecrated, no church be used as residence or damaged, and perfect safety for those who wished to leave until they reached a protected place. The people of Jerusalem, hastily opened the doors of the city on the spot.

When the Muslims under the leadership of Salahuddin Ayyubi reconquered Jerusalem from the Christians in 588 A.H., not a drop of Christian blood was spilled anywhere. On this, every Christian household in Europe clamored greatly over their ignonimous defeat until the armies of Europe led by Philip of France, Richard the Lion-hearted emperor of England, and Frederick of Germany joined together to finally wipe out all traces of Islam. But Salahuddin defeated them with his small army in hundreds of battles until he shattered their ideas. Even then, he forgave his enemies and allowed them to return for christian pilgrimages. On the other hand, when they had conquered it in 490 A.H., they let rivers of blood flow in Jerusalem, sparing none of it's inhabitants--children, women and elderly; neither Muslim, Jew, nor Christian.

I mention how the Christians treated the Palestinians for comparison because when the Muslims reconquered these areas, they gave rights to all inhabitants despite what the Christians did and continued to do. In stark contrast, the Israeli's are not giving these rights to the Palestinians and I disagree with that despite what wrongs Hamas might be doing to them. This is no way a piece on supporting Hamas, as I strongly disagree with them. This is a piece on giving the Palestinians their RIGHTS.


Sources:

1. The History of Islam (V.1.); p.354-357; Akbar S. Najeebabadi.
2. Western Civilizations (V.1.); p.247-268, p.297-306, p.416-420; Judith G. Coffin, Robert C. Stacey.
3. The History of Islam (V.3); p.267-268, p.353-356; Akbar S. Najeebabadi.
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sister herb
01-14-2009, 03:05 AM
:sl:

Back to this day;

How peacefull zionist troops are treating Palestinians in the "moderate" West Bank; killing and kidnapping them (yesterday zionist occupy soldiers beated to death Palestinian man at al-Khalil, illegal settler shoot young child to death). What is different how they treat Palestinians in the "extremist" Gaza Strip?

Nothing.

imsad
Reply

Najm
01-14-2009, 03:42 AM

AsSalamOAlaikum WaRehmatuAllah WaBarkatuhu

From the other thread :p

Yay!!! I wonder what happened With 1.5 million in Gaza and 2.5 million in the West Bank? Well lets see....

Hamas was chosen democratically to represent Palestinians in the 2006 Parliamentary elections. Hamas was able to secure for itself more than the minimum required 50% of seats in a 78%-turn-out-election that was described as fair and clean by observers.
As Guardian states...

"Democrats will rightly applaud the 78% turnout in Wednesday's elections to the Palestinian parliament, which were remarkably fair, free and peaceful. George Bush and Tony Blair, who set such store by promoting democracy in Iraq and (selectively) elsewhere in the Middle East, should be delighted. The only problem is the result: preliminary figures show a stunning victory for the Islamic Resistance Movement, Hamas"
All we should be saying is.....

Originally Posted by aamirsaab
:sl:
All hail Israel: Champions of democracy and justice (!)
FiAmaaniAllah
Reply

Vito
01-14-2009, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
That's an interesting scenario: imagine what the world would be like if Israel never formed.
:w:
I'm sure there would of been problems no matter where they got sent to
Reply

sister herb
01-15-2009, 12:28 AM
Originally Posted by Fishman
:sl:
That's an interesting scenario: imagine what the world would be like if Israel never formed.
:w:
:sl:

Lets imagine:

Matter to think: "What if Israel Had Never Been Created?"
By William Hughes


"What would the world look like, if in 1948, the state of Israel hadn't been created? Unfortunately, President Harry S. Truman, under the "influence of the Zionists, gave his endorsement to that violence-inspiring project. Since that time, life for the Palestinians has become a hell-on-earth under the heel of Israel's brutal Death-Mayhem-Occupation Machine. John Lennon said, "Imagine there's no countries. Okay, let's imagine: There is no Israel!"



1. The U.S. would not have any enemies in the Islamic World.

2. There would be no Al-Qaeda Terrorist Network.

3. Oil would be selling for less than $1 a gallon.
4. There would have been no 9/11.

5. There would be no USA Patriot Law.

6. There would be no Homeland Security Agency.

7. The Israeli Lobby's "unmatched power over the U.S.' foreign policy, for over four decades, would not have existed. (Its support for the Iraqi War was deemed by the experts to be critical)

8. There would also not have been any Neocon ideologues; like Paul Wolfowitz, William Kristol, Richard Perle, at all, to help, (along with other "Special Interests"), to push the U.S. into an illegal war on Iraq.

9. Iran would not be the next target for U.S. aggression. (No Israel. No Clean Break document. No Israeli Lobby. No Neocons. No need for the U.S. to attack Iran.)

10. The Zionist fink, Jonathan Pollard, wouldn't be in prison for stealing U.S. military secrets and hawking them to Israel.

11. The Three Million-Plus Palestinians (Now Over 15 Million dispersed Around the World), who were forcefully dispersed from their homeland, since 1948, by the Israeli Occupation Forces (IOF), would instead, be living happily there today, in a free and independent state of Palestine. There would be no Apartheid Wall, or as a corollary, a Hamas organization.

12. Jerusalem would have a vibrant Christian population.

13. Rachel Corrie of Olympia, WA, would be alive and well.

14. The 2,544 Americans who have died in Iraq would be alive; and the 18,777, who have been seriously wounded there, would be fully participating in our Republic. U.S. taxpayers would have an additional $295 billion, (the cost of the war), in the treasury to use to serve the social needs of the people. Universal Health Care would be a real possibility and Social Security would not be in jeopardy. Iraq would be at peace. There would be no Guantanamo Bay detention center, or an Abu Ghraib Prison, or a reason for the Bush-Cheney Gang to gut Habeas Corpus. No need for it to also employ torturers, or chemical weapons, or hold detainees without charges or trial. The Geneva Convention would be respected. The 655 thousand -and Increasing- innocent Iraqis, who have died as a result of the war, would instead be alive today. (At the following footnote, see horrific photos of some of the Iraqi dead.)

15. The battle to save our planet, its fragile ecosystem, its fast vanishing animal life and plants and to combat global warming, would be issue "No. 1. [10] Instead, we are perpetually bombarded with propaganda about defending "Israel's security".

16. If there was no Israel, then the "Five Dancing Israelis on 9/11 wouldn't have been arrested. They were nailed after "Celebrating in NJ, while watching the Twin Towers collapsed.

17. U.S. taxpayers would be $140 billion richer! This is the staggering amount they have shelled out over the last 58 years to support the ultra-greedy interests of the Zionist Cartel.

18. The 34 Americans onboard the USS Liberty, who were slaughtered by the IOF, on June 8, 1967, would be alive today; and the 174 others who had suffered injuries that day would not have had to endure their horrific experiences. The shame the U.S. carries for not having quickly defended the men of the Liberty, and retaliated against the Israelis for their deliberate attack on the vessel, would have been avoided.

19. On June 13, 2006, the IOF killed ten Palestinians, including three medical workers and two children, in the Gaza Strip. The Palestinian President, Mahmoud Abbas, labeled the missile attack an example of "State Terrorism" Only God knows how many Palestinians the Israelis have actually wasted since 1948; or exactly how many refugees it has created, or how many homes, a la Oliver Cromwell, the IOF have demolished. None of this would have been possible without the dubious "State of Israel.

20. Paul Bremer, a coat holder for Henry Kissinger, would have never been appointed Viceroy for an Occupied Iraq. No Israel. No Iraqi War. No Zionist Bremer as Viceroy of Iraq.

21. One of the reasons the Warren Commission failed to properly investigate the murder of JFK was because of Arlen Specter (R-PA), a card carrying Zionist. He was then a "Special Counsel to the Commission. He concocted the preposterous "Magic Bullet Theory, which shut down any real conspiracy-type probe. It is also interesting to note, that Jacob Rubenstein, AKA, "Jack Ruby, Lee Harvey Oswald's murderer, had close ties to Meyer Lansky's National Crime Syndicate. I believe the answer to who really plotted JFK's killing, died with Oswald. In any event after JFK's death, Israel's nuclear weapons program, which he had opposed, went ahead. U.S. aid to Israel also increased dramatically.

22. There would have been no reason for a French Ambassador to refer to Israel as "That ****ty Little Country. In fact, the Jews of the world would have been liberated to fulfill their deepest spiritual quest, as embodied in their religion - Judaism. According to the highly respected Orthodox Rabbi, Dovid Yisroel Weiss, "Zionism has hijacked Judaism. The courageous Rabbi insists that, "Zionism creates anti-Semitism, And we know Zionism is the root cause for the pain, suffering and bloodshed of the Jewish people and, they, (the Zionists), are the greatest factory of anti-Semitism worldwide, Judaism and Zionism is not one and the same. They are diametrically opposite. We should not be mistaken one for the other. And, we shouldn't be responsible for the actions of what the Zionists do. Now, another of the problems that emanate actually from the Zionist Movement is the fact that they are encroaching upon the rights of the Palestinian people, the indigenous people, who are living there. And, this is terribly wrong. It is against every concept of the Torah. So, whatever they are doing is totally wrong!

23. Thousands of Israelis have died attempting to build a nation in a land, Palestine, which belonged to another people, the Palestinians. Their deaths would have been avoided.

24. The widespread spying on Americans, without a court order, by operatives of the Bush-Cheney Gang, would have never happened. (No Israel. No 9/11. No spying on U.S. citizens.)

25. On April 4, 2003, a European Union (EU) poll named Israel as the "Greatest Threat to World Peace" On June 27, 2006, the IOF proved the EU right by reoccupying Gaza, savagely terrorizing the civilian population, blowing up their electric/water generating facilities, conducting a mass arrest of their elected officials, and also, without just cause, provoking the Syrians. In response to the repeated shelling by the IOF of Gaza, Israel's Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, wisecracked, "Nobody dies from being uncomfortable! When he addressed a Joint Session of the U.S. Congress, on May 24, 2006, Olmert received 38 breaks of applause and 18 standing ovations from that entity of mostly lapdogs. This is also the same Israeli leader, who, paraphrasing George Orwell's "Animal Farm, said that he had a "Deep regret about the effects of some IOF's operations which had killed 14 innocent Palestinians in just nine days, but that the lives of Israeli citizens were Even More Important"

26. Finally, if there wasn't a Zionist-created Israel, there also wouldn't be any need for a commentary like this one!
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Whatsthepoint
01-15-2009, 02:02 PM
If Israel hadn't been created Palestine would be an infertile desert belonging to Jordan and Egypt..
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