Secularization among Dutch Muslims

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KAding

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Interesting statistics were published by the Dutch Statistics Office last week. I don't know about you guys, but I love statistics :statisfie. Among other things they measured the number of Muslims, Protestants and Catholics that went to church on a weekly and monthly basis and compared it with similar figures from 1998.

Religious beliefs in Holland:
- 48% of the population is Christian
  • 29% Catholics
  • 19% Protestants
- 5% is Muslim (825.000 people)
  • 95% have a non-Western background
  • 1.5% are converts to Islam (13.000)

In 1998 47% of the Muslims went to the mosque at least once a month. In 2008 this figure had dropped to 35%. About half of the Muslims in the Netherlands never or hardly ever go to the mosque. Among catholics the number of monthly churchgoers dropped from 31% to 23%. Among protestants the figures were much higher at 63% in 2008.

I found it most interesting that clearly Muslims are not immune to secularization and that later generations apparently really do become more relaxed about their religion. From my perspective this is a good thing, since I believe more religion will only create more divisions and more social tension. After all, religions are generally very good at fostering an 'us' vs. 'them' sentiment or at least that is often how it ends up. Another interesting figure was the number of converts as part of the total Muslim population. As far as I know very little research was done on that subject in any European country. At 1.5% the number of converts was actually higher then I expected, but it is still fairly negligible, with 98.5% of Muslims being born from Muslim parents.

I have a question though. Is going to the mosque mandatory in Islam? Or can one easily be a fully practicing Muslim without going to a mosque?

Source: http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas...chief/2009/2009-2853-wm.htm?Languageswitch=on
 
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There are more catholics than protestants in Netherlands? Thats suprising in this old motherland of reformation. I think that with the rise of secularization, there are also more divorces, lonely parents, fatherless children, children born out of family, adulteries, pornography, bigger apathy in the society (as the Dutches dont care what would happen with their country after their death, which is typical to atheists and agnostics). There are fewer children born at all without the rligious mandatory. With bigger secularization there are less chances for Netherlands to exist as a country with european culture in next century. Thats why Im always suprised when many europeans are in favour of secularization of society.
 
Obviously I am not pleased about the idea of secularised Muslims but I can see how there is a conflict between Islam and mainstream Western culture - having them together is a recipe for disaster (literally).

KAding, are you surprised that Muslims are not immune to secularisation?
 
Uthmān;1197387 said:
KAding, are you surprised that Muslims are not immune to secularisation?
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I'm surprised. I thought it was part of the MMR vaccination.
 
Amadeus85 said:
There are more catholics than protestants in Netherlands? Thats suprising in this old motherland of reformation. I think that with the rise of secularization, there are also more divorces, lonely parents, fatherless children, children born out of family, adulteries, pornography, bigger apathy in the society (as the Dutches dont care what would happen with their country after their death, which is typical to atheists and agnostics). There are fewer children born at all without the rligious mandatory. With bigger secularization there are less chances for Netherlands to exist as a country with european culture in next century. Thats why Im always suprised when many europeans are in favour of secularization of society.
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It's true, so many problems in the secularized west. Why can't they just follow the wonderful examples of all those societies that are governed by religion?

Can't they see how smoothly everything works if the citizens just obey the special people with special god powers, you know, the ones who appointed themselves?
 
Foxhole said:
It's true, so many problems in the secularized west. Why can't they just follow the wonderful examples of all those societies that are governed by religion?

Can't they see how smoothly everything works if the citizens just obey the special people with special god powers, you know, the ones who appointed themselves?
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Maybe You didnt notice that the western secular people are simply dying out? Whats left of these goods, if this civilization wants to commit a mass suicide. I dont understand You at all dude.
 
Uthmān;1197387 said:
Obviously I am not pleased about the idea of secularised Muslims but I can see how there is a conflict between Islam and mainstream Western culture - having them together is a recipe for disaster (literally).
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Well, at least based on how things are going now, yes it does seems a recipe for disaster and social conflict. But who knows, maybe in a few decades the whole Muslim vs. West fuss will have blown over. Just like Jews, Buddhists, Hindus and whatnot have no real problems living in the West nowadays either.

KAding, are you surprised that Muslims are not immune to secularisation?
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No, I am not. I never thought they were, but that wasn't based on much hard data, just clever analysis ;). It was also somewhat wishful thinking though.

I think this is excellent news because it undermines the message of extremists on both sides. Claims by people like Wilders who keeps saying Muslims and the West cannot coexist fall flat if Muslims turn out to adopt more secular life-styles and identities. And Muslim extremism will have fewer chances of taking root, just like it has a hard time taking root in, say, Albania or Bosnia, simply because they have a more relaxed attitude towards their religion.
 
Amadeus85 said:
Maybe You didnt notice that the western secular people are simply dying out? Whats left of these goods, if this civilization wants to commit a mass suicide. I dont understand You at all dude.
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'Secular people dying out'? I think you are missing an important point here. Birth rates aren't nearly as important as the mix of freedom of conscience , individual choice and social change. If birth rates are really that important then Christianity would never have lost ground in Europe, since everyone was born from Christian parents at one point. My parents were born to Christians who went to church weekly, yet my parents aren't religious. Orthodox groups have been having more children for ages, yet they are not getting any bigger demographically.

The whole point here is that people lose their religion or at least adopt a more private or secularized interpretation of religion. Many children of more orthodox believers will leave their parents way of life and religion as well. Or maybe it will be the other way around in the future, who knows, but that isn't determined primarily by birth rates but by social and cultural shifts IMHO.
 
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Greetings,

I think this is excellent news.

Less religion equals less opportunity for conflict. I'm not aware of any exceptions to that rule.

Peace
 
Greetings,
Light of Heaven said:
^Thats nonsense! People will still find things to argue about and fight over. Humans r dumb like that...
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If you're right, then religion just gives them one more thing to argue or fight about.

Peace
 
But these statistics are quite weak, I can't seem to find it strong, 'cause secularization is quite a wide term, whilst 'visit to the mosque' is not. Secularization equals less visits to the mosque/church?

(Less visits can be 'cause one is too busy with work that one has to clinge to in fear of today's high unemployment, doesn't show your religious side.. for example.)

non-western background.
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I wonder what that is, everything outside Europe? What about the U.S. ?
I mean, I do consider ex-Yugoslavia to be in Western territories and with a "Western" past/present. But then again, I hear some who think Bosnia is not "west".

About statistics in general, I wish they were more detailed about their definitions.
 
^ May I try to help? I think she means there are so many other things which people argue about yet the focus is on religion being the 'all-time-bad' and thus ignores practically all other kinds of reasons.
 

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