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KittenLover
04-14-2010, 11:23 PM
My friend says that there's a verse in Qur'an that says "We have made you (muhammed saw) a witness over them untill the day of resurection" and he said this is proof that the prophet pbuh can see us and is present and if we deny this then we are kafur because we reject the verse.

I said to him but this Allah's attribute alone, but then he said well that's what Allah says in Qur'an.

If anyone has a good book on this topic refuting all the verses that they bring forth to proove this claim I would be grateful. No doubt he is just pcking verses and not looking at the tafseer behind them or proper interpretation. he said he will get me referenes for the verses.
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qadir al jilani
04-15-2010, 08:40 AM
Yes Allah grants the Prophet certain knowledge of the unseen but this does not mean he knows everything. Also him knowing every little detail like me writing this reply does not increase or decrease his rank.
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brotherubaid
04-15-2010, 10:38 AM
But he does not know it , its ghuloo in his rank , and yes it increase his rank , coz its an attribute of Allah to be with his creation with his knowledge n sight n to listen to them when they cal upon him. And the Prphet sala lahu alihi wa sallam cannot listen to our conversation nor if we were to seek help from him , yes he does get our salam delivered to him , and thats it , u could all day sing a naat n none of it would reach him unless if in that naat u send salams on him han a angel will convey it to him.

He sala lahu alihi wa sallam is unaware of our deeds , He is un aware of our condition n our haal n circumstances , He sala lahu alihi wa sallam is npot present with us nor does he come to pakistan n india n sit on that chiar taht they decorate and claim he is siiting on it , nor does he come to their houses in bangladesh when they claim he is here , he is not , not with his self , nor with his knowledge.

May Allah guide us all.
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qadir al jilani
04-15-2010, 02:37 PM
The Prophet only knows what Allah reveals to Him

Bismillah wal-Hamdulillah, wa Sallallahu ^Ala Rasulillah:

It’s confirmed that the Prophet only knows what Allah reveals to Him. Only Allah knows all of the (Ghayb) unforeseen. So the one who says or claims that the Prophet knows all the unseen, or that he knows everything that Allah knows, then he would have made an equal to Allah, and that is kufur. Allah has no equal or similitude subhanahu in the self, nor in the doings nor in the attributes (Sifat).

Enough to clarify that and to refute the false claim that the Prophet knows all the Ghayb, the ayah 59 in surat al-‘An^am
{ وعنده مفاتح الغيب لا يعلمها إلاّ هوَ ويعلم ما في البرِّ والبحر وما تسْقُطُ من ورقةٍ إلاّ يعلمها ولا حبَّةٍ في ظلمات الأرض ولا رطْبٍ ولا يابسٍ إلاّ في كتابٍ مبين }

In this Ayah Allah praised himself by knowing everything inclusively. So the one who claims that the Prophet knows everything that Allah knows would have made the Prophet resemble Allah in that attribute, even if he claimed that the Prophets knows everything about ghayb by Allah giving him that knowledge of everything inclusively, that is still likening the creations to Allah and that is kufr.

Also the ayah in sort az-Zumar verse 46:
{عَالِمَ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ}

And:
{عَالِمُ الْغَيْبِ فَلَا يُظْهِرُ عَلَى غَيْبِهِ أَحَداً إِلَّا مَنِ ارْتَضَى مِن رَّسُولٍ فَإِنَّهُ يَسْلُكُ مِن بَيْنِ يَدَيْهِ وَمِنْ خَلْفِهِ رَصَداً}( سورة الجن: 26 ، 27)

This ayah means Allah knows all the Ghayb and he does not reveal this Ghayb to anyone, however Allah reveals some of the ghayb to the Prophet and to some of the angels. Allah mentioned in the night of al-Qadr:
فيها يفرق كل أمرٍ حكيمٍ

“Fiha Yufraqu kullu ‘Amirn Hakim” which means in that night Allah gives the angels the knowledge of what is going to happen during the coming year in what pertains to the sustenance (rizq), the changes in the situation of the slaves, and the like.


And this ayah is another proof that the Prophet does not know everything that Allah knows:
{قُلْ مَا كُنتُ بِدْعاً مِّنْ الرُّسُلِ وَمَا أَدْرِي مَا يُفْعَلُ بِي وَلَا بِكُمْ إِنْ أَتَّبِعُ إِلَّا مَا يُوحَى إِلَيَّ} ( سورة الأحقاف: 9)

This ayah clearly shows that the Prophet is saying that he does not know what Allah has willed for him and his nation, so how could one claim that the Prophet knows all the ghayb!.

Also al-Bukhariy narrated in al-Jami^ a Hadith that has the meaning of theses verses concerning ^uthman son of Madh^oon, the narration confirms that the Prophet only knows what Allah revealed to him, and that He does not have the knowledge of all of the Ghayb. Also in another Hadith narrated by Abu Hurayrah where the angles say to the Prophet “ you don’t know what these people did after you from” bad deeds.. the hadith..

And it’s also known that once the Prophet sent 70 very knowledgeable companions (Sahabah) to a tribe in a certain area to teach the religion, some other tribes opposed them and killed all 70 companions. If the Prophet knows all the unseen and all the ghayb he would not have sent these great companions to get killed. This hadith is also narrated by al-Bukhariy and others.

Also once the Prophet lost his camel, then the people of Quraysh said to him: A Prophet and he does not know where his camel is? And so the Prophet said: “I only know what Allah reveals to me, and I swear by Allah that the camel is in so and so place”. This is another proof that the Prophet only knows what Allah reveals to him. The Prophet did not know the place of the camel, then Allah revealed to him at that moment where the camel was and they found it where he said Sallallahu ^Alayhi wa Sallam.

This is the creed of Ahlus-Sunnah and the true Sufis. Although some Sufis exaggerated in this issue, they not only claimed that the Prophet knows all ghayb, some they also said the Prophet is not a human and that he is physical light, and some they said he is part of Allah! All these misconceptions are due to extreme ignorance in the creed.

We ask Allah to protect us from exaggerations and extremism in religion, and we ask Allah to keep us on the moderate belief of Ahlus-Sunnah, the belief that Allah has the knowledge of all things and that Allah gives part of this knowledge to whomever he wills, and that Allah has perfect attributes and He is clear from non befitting attributes and imperfections, Allah exists without a beginning and without a place, the six directions do not contain Allah, He has no limits or Body, and he knows best.
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AhmadibnNasroon
04-15-2010, 04:15 PM
hazir nazir is braelwi mushrik aqeedah; may Allah protect us from this
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brotherubaid
04-15-2010, 06:03 PM
Originally Posted by qadir al jilani
Also him knowing every little detail like me writing this reply does not increase or decrease his rank.

Jazak Allah kahir for your detailed reply brother may Allah bless u.

I just want to comment on this also , as believeing that the Prophet is hearing and seeing eeverythuing Just like Allah is also major shirk coz u will be giving the atributes of Allah to the Creator to His creation , even though the BEST and MOST PERFECT creation of Allah , but What is for Alah is only for him , and the way it is for Allah is only for him , rest might have the abilities like hearing and seeing but not as Alah has , coz he knows whats inside our chests and what we whisper inside our selfes and knows what we say , read or write or watch.

He knows the cheating(fraud) of the eye and what the chests conceal -- The ayah

No vision can grasp him and his Grasp is over All vision The ayah

There is nothing like him .ليس كمثله شئى

This and many many other verses and hadeeths , prove that Allah has the most beautiful names and His names are His most perfect attributes and NO one resembles Him in his attributes.

And knowing what im writing here and what everyone else is writing and saying and doing is only for Allah alone. He watches and hears n sees all and knows everything , His creation might watch n see and hear but NOt like He does , so for anyone to claim that by saying or claimingh that the prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam knows every little detail lke me writing this than he has commited major shirk By Comparing The creation to The creator , by giving an Attribute that is exclusive for Allah to his Most beloved and perfect creation that such a person has commited shirk. It does increase his rank sala lahu alihi wa sallam and raiss itup to the creator subhanahu wa taala .

And as far as the ayah this person gave the sister as a doubt , than this eply migh tbe enough coz in interpeting the ayah in teh way that person has intrepeted he/she has commited major shirk by comparing and resembling the creation with the creator and this can be refuted in soo many ways , the ayah is cleary taken out of context ,InshahAllah i will try to write a detailed reftation or see if theer is one out theer already

and may Allah blesss u and save u from such doubts.
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qadir al jilani
04-15-2010, 08:39 PM
To explain the issue briefly the one who believes the Prophet knows everything like Allah has committed shirk without a doubt, as they have likened Allah to his creation. Rather the correct belief is the Prophet knows some knowledge of the unseen which Allah granted to him. The two cases mentioned are extremely unlike and the latter is not rationally incorrect.
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AhmadibnNasroon
04-15-2010, 11:01 PM
Originally Posted by qadir al jilani
To explain the issue briefly the one who believes the Prophet knows everything like Allah has committed shirk without a doubt, as they have likened Allah to his creation. Rather the correct belief is the Prophet knows some knowledge of the unseen which Allah granted to him. The two cases mentioned are extremely unlike and the latter is not rationally incorrect.
The issue of hazir nazir doesn't have to do with that alone, the major issue with hazir nazir is that the belief is that the Prophet is alive (in a worldly sense) and is present and witnessing everything that his ummah does. The braelwis themselves are divided on this issue as some say

1- He is all seeing/omnipresent: therefore he can see everything

2- He can see whatever he wishes when he wishes but not all at one time. So he can observe certain things at certain times depending on what he wishes.

Overall they ascribe 3ilm al ghayb to the Prophet and this is shirk akbar.

Allah mentions in several places in the Quran that the knowledge of the unseen is only for him. The latest is the braelwis are trying to claim that the Prophet knew the hour and they twist the sharh of the hadeeth of Jibreel.

I'm reminded of the hadeeth related by al Bukhari

Narrated 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I am your predecessor at the Lake-Fount (Kauthar) and some men amongst you will be brought to me, and when I will try to hand them some water, they will be pulled away from me by force whereupon I will say, 'O Lord, my companions!' Then the Almighty will say, 'You do not know what they did after you left, they introduced new things into the religion after you.'"

May Allah free us from shirk, kufr, bid3ah, and ta'assub allaahumma ameen
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qadir al jilani
04-15-2010, 11:54 PM
Before replying back to the points you raised I will like to say that you should seriously study the definition of “Shirk” and be very caution when using such a authoritative word. I am defiantly not insinuating that if one likens Allah to his creation not to pronounce this as kufr.

Read my previous post where I clearly state that the Prophet has been granted some knowledge of the unseen and this is not likening Allah to his creation as I did not say all the unseen is revealed to him rather parts.

To make this issue clearer I will give you an example, the inhabitants of heaven do not die would you now judge the person saying this statement as a kafir because they are saying Allah is similar to his creation?

If one tried using this methodology what would you say to him? You would simply tell him that no one specified Allah eternity whereas the inhabitants of heaven were specified by Allah. Both of these are exceptionally different yet this example is extremely beneficial because it shows you how easily one might misconstrue something without him looking deeper into the statement.

There are many hadith and scholarly saying which proof that Prophet knows some of the unseen.
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AhmadibnNasroon
04-16-2010, 02:32 AM
Originally Posted by qadir al jilani
Before replying back to the points you raised I will like to say that you should seriously study the definition of “Shirk” and be very caution when using such a authoritative word. I am defiantly not insinuating that if one likens Allah to his creation not to pronounce this as kufr.

Read my previous post where I clearly state that the Prophet has been granted some knowledge of the unseen and this is not likening Allah to his creation as I did not say all the unseen is revealed to him rather parts.

To make this issue clearer I will give you an example, the inhabitants of heaven do not die would you now judge the person saying this statement as a kafir because they are saying Allah is similar to his creation?

If one tried using this methodology what would you say to him? You would simply tell him that no one specified Allah eternity whereas the inhabitants of heaven were specified by Allah. Both of these are exceptionally different yet this example is extremely beneficial because it shows you how easily one might misconstrue something without him looking deeper into the statement.

There are many hadith and scholarly saying which proof that Prophet knows some of the unseen.
You completely misunderstood what I said. I'm referring to the belief of hazir nazir, this belief entails that the Prophet, RIGHT NOW, is present and witnessing everything. This is SHIRK. Just like supplicating to the dead with the belief that they answer your call is SHIRK.

Question: Some people teach a doctrine that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is omnipresent (hâdir) and omniscient (nâzir). They argue that the Qur’ân says that the prophet (peace be upon him) is a witness to all humanity, and this means he has to be omnipresent. Is this doctrine true or false? Does it really mean that the Prophet (peace be upon him) is everywhere and can see and hear all things?

Answered by Sheikh Ahmad al-Qâdî, research fellow at al-Imam University
There is a doctrine, especially prevalent in the Indian subcontinent, that the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is omnipresent (hâdir) and omniscient (nâzir).



One of the leading proponents of this doctrine, Ahmad Raza Khan, explains it as follows [Jâ’ al-Haqq (1/160)]:

The Islamic meaning of being omnipresent and omniscient is that the one who possesses this holy power is able to see the world just like he can see his own hand, form the place where he is present. He can hear sounds from both near and far. He can go around the world in an instant to help those who are in distress and answer supplicants.

It should be clear that this doctrine shows excessiveness with respect to the Prophet (peace be upon him), as well as polytheism with respect to both Allah’s lordship and Allah’s exclusive right to be worshipped.

The Qur’ân and Sunnah Attest to the Falsehood of this Doctrine

The Qur’ân and Sunnah are clear in showing us the falsehood of the ideas set forth above.

Allah says: “Muhammad is no more than a messenger: many were the messenger that passed away before him.” [Sûrah Âl `Imrân: 144]

Allah commands Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) to clarify to the people that he does not have knowledge of anything about the Unseen except what Allah reveals to him.

Allah says: “Say (O Muhammad): I do not say to you that I possess Allah’s treasures, nor that I have knowledge of the Unseen. I do not say to you that I am an angel. I follow only that which has been revealed to me.” [Sûrah al-An`âm: 50]

Allah also commands His Messenger (peace be upon him) to proclaim that he is a mere human being and cannot answer our prayers or grant superhuman help

Allah says: “Say (O Muhammad): I am none other than a human being like yourselves, but one who has been given revelation.” [Sûrah al-Kahf: 110]

Allah says: “I do not possess for myself any benefit or harm except what Allah wills. If I had known the Unseen, I would have brought on for myself a lot of good and nothing evil would ever befall me. I am but a giver of warnings and of glad tidings for a people who believe.” [Sûrah al-A`râf: 188]

How can anyone believe, after reading this verse, that Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) has the power to help them in distress or answer their prayers?

Allah says: “Say (O Muhammad): It is not in my power to cause you harm, or to bring you to right conduct.” [Sûrah al-Jinn: 21]

When the Prophet (peace be upon him) made a mistake in prayer, he said: “I am but a human being like yourselves. I forget things just like you do. So if I forget something, remind me.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (386) and Sahîh Muslim (889)]

The Prophet (peace be upon him) said: “Do not exalt me like the Christians exalted the Son of Mary. I am but a servant, so call me Allah’s servant and messenger.” [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (3189)]

Dispelling Some Misconceptions

The proponents of the doctrine of prophetic omnipresence cite certain verses of the Qur’ân as proof of their beliefs, especially those verses that refer to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) as being a “witness”. They argue that this means the Prophet (peace be upon him) will have to be able to witness all people at all times in order to bear witness against them in the Hereafter.

However, when we look at how the Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) explained those verses himself, we see that they provide no evidence to support the doctrine of his omnipresence.

1. Allah says: “Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you.” [Sûrah al-Baqarah: 143]

The “witness” in this verse is with reference to communicating the message of Allah. This is how the Prophet (peace be upon him) explained to us the meaning of this verse.



Abû Sa`îd relates that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) said [Sahîh al-Bukhârî (4127), Sunan al-Tirmidhî (2887), and Musnad Ahmad (10853)]:

Noah will be summoned on the Day of Judgment and asked: “Did you convey the Message?”

He will say: “Yes, I did.”

Then his people will be summoned and asked: “Did he convey to you the Message?”

They will answer: “We were never approached by any warner. We were approached by no one.”

So Noah will be asked: “Who will bear witness on your behalf?”

He will say: “Muhammad and his followers.”

And this is why Allah says: “Thus We have appointed you a middle nation, that ye may be witnesses against mankind, and that the messenger may be a witness against you.”

The meaning of “middle” is to be just. Then you will be summoned you will bear witness will be born against them that they did receive the message. Then I will bear witness upon you.”

2. Allah says: “How will it be, then, when We bring from every people a witness and bring you as a witness against these?” [Sûrah al-Nisâ’: 41]

Ibn Jarîr al-Tabarî relates in his Tafsîr (4/94) from `Abd Allah b. Mas`ûd that Allah’s Messenger (peace be upon him) explained this verse by citing another verse: “I was a witness upon them as long as I was among them. When You took Me up, then You are the Watcher over them, and You are witness to all things.” [Sûrah al-Mâ’idah: 117]



The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is referring to verses 116-117 of Sûrah al-Mâ’idah:

And behold! Allah will say: “O Jesus the son of Mary! Did you say unto men, ‘worship me and my mother as gods in derogation of Allah’? He will say: “Glory to Thee! never could I say what I had no right (to say). Had I said such a thing, You would indeed have known it. You know what is in my heart, while I do not know what is in Yours. For You know in full all that is hidden.

I did not say to them aught save what You did enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when You took Me up, then You are the Watcher over them, and You are witness to all things.”

Therefore, the Prophet (peace be upon him) made it clear that his being a witness over the people is not referring to something that takes place after his death.

http://www.islamtoday.com/show_detai...main_cat_id=18





Please read here...

http://islamqa.com/en/ref/6084/prese...d%20witnessing

http://www.fatwa-online.com/fataawa/.../0010517_5.htm

Bro. qadir I was only referring to the ISSUE of hazir nazir and what the belief actually entails. Just for clarity purposes, this belief is is baatil and anyone that supports need to study what Tawheed/Shirk is.
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brotherubaid
04-16-2010, 09:54 AM
[QUOTE=qadir al jilani;1317774]
To make this issue clearer I will give you an example, the inhabitants of heaven do not die would you now judge the person saying this statement as a kafir because they are saying Allah is similar to his creation?


Yes this question was once put to sheikh salim ibn saad at taweel of kuwait

He gave a really good point of benefit

The life of inhibitanats of jannah cannot compare to the Life of Allah subhanahu wa taala.

WHY?

Coz they were given life , so they had a start , and their life ended , that is they had an end , and than again Allah gave them life again and they were alive again and entered tyhem in jannah and from there only their life will be of eternity.

So Allah's life is perfect , He does not have a beggiing or an end , while our lifes might have started liek in 1983 lol , Imagine that , how can our life ever be compared to Allah's life , so ALL the attributes of Allah are PERFECT , and everything else can never ever be like him coz when ther was notthing He was there and when there woll be notthing he will be there.

So even when they will be given the life of eternity , they do not compare to the life of Allah in any way , coz they had a beginning and an end, this is not anything like the perect life of Allah, so even if they will live for ever , they do not in any way compare to Allah and hence one canot come and say well if we say that the inhibaitants of jannah do not die so they have commioted shirk , coz they did die , n they did startrt before that dying , and they wre raised after dath again.

see the diference.

and bro qadir

im glad to see that u are not like some of the other sufis and what they have in their books and you are willint to prove that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa salam only knows what Allah taugt him from the unseen , and that was in his life sala lahu alihi wa salam , liek we see in teh case of battle of badr when he pointed out where such and such person will die

So this was basically knowledge , not a matter of unseen , why?

If something is hapeneing behind the wall im sitting next to now , i do not know it , right? but if some one comes to me and tells me whats going on behind the wall than i become aware of it but i do not get to know the Unseen , rather i get the knowlede of what happened , so now i know it , i would know the unseen if i had figured out my self whats going on , and when the matters of unseen are informed by Allah they do not remian un seen they become knowledge.

any way , somethimes people start off proving taht the prophet sala lahu alihiw a sallam only knew what Allah taught him n go on and use this to prove some thinngs which from their own desires like Allah can let him know of such and such things so the Prophet in reality is hazir nazir coz Allah will let him knwo what we are doing , to which there is no evidence , just an assumption to keep the poor n illeterate n simple people follow them in their ways n manhaj, notthing more.

the unseen that the prophet sala alhu alihi wa salam was informed was in his life and this principle applies to his life and not beyound that coz for that we would need evidence.

YEs by the way there is evidence of our salam being conveyed to Him sala lahu alihi wa salam . bu this is called A tawqeefiyah masalah , we say the salams get conveyed and we STOP there , we cannot go on and prove IF salam gets conveyed than WHY NOT SUCH AND SUCH WILL GET CONVEYED ALSO..... , no we stop in matter of aqeedah where the hadeeths stops n hence such masail are called tawqeefiyah or stopping masail. the yhave limits
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Binyamine
04-16-2010, 03:37 PM
Masha'Allah...this is a nice civilised debate. May Allah bless all of you.
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Abdul Wahid
04-16-2010, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by Binyamine
Masha'Allah...this is a nice civilised debate. May Allah bless all of you.
Ameen.

My sentiments exactly. MashaALLAH.
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qadir al jilani
04-17-2010, 02:34 AM
Yes this question was once put to sheikh salim ibn saad at taweel of kuwait

He gave a really good point of benefit

The life of inhibitanats of jannah cannot compare to the Life of Allah subhanahu wa taala……………………………………… ……………………..

Yes this is exactly what I am saying and I gave the example of the inhabitants of heaven to highlight its concept.

You accept that the inhabitants of Heaven would not die and you say this is not likening Allah to his creation because no one specified Allah eternity whereas Allah will grant the people of heaven eternity in heaven.

I 100% agree with you on this issue but you need to realize that this concept can also be applied to the case of the Prophet knowing some of the knowledge of the unseen.

The reason this is logical and rational is because no one is claiming the Prophet knows all the knowledge of the unseen rather some which Allah grants him. Who specified the prophet knowing some of the unseen? Of course Allah attributes the Prophet with this knowledge and this is also among the reason it is not Shrik to say the aforementioned.

Look at the first case:

Allah is eternal
The inhabitants of heaven are eternal
The reason why this is not likening Allah to his creation is very simple as you mentioned that no one specified Allah with eternity whereas the inhabitants of heaven are attributed this by Allah.

Look at second case:

Allah knows all the unseen and know else other then him does.
The Prophet is granted by Allah to know “SOME” of the knowledge of the unseen!
Now apply the concept above with this example and you will come to the conclusion that this is not shirk.

Lastly this knowledge is not in any way like the knowledge of Allah: Allah knows absolutely all things, as they were, are and will be, from beginningless eternality, without any acquisition. The knowledge of the Prophet (Allah bless him and give him peace) is vaster than
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brotherubaid
04-17-2010, 12:08 PM
Yes i agree with the above , u are doing what the people with your metyhodology always do , prove one thing and aply it on other things athat do not compare to it.

I agree that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam did have some knowledge of the unseen , and Allah informed him of such things as ther are many examples of this in his life. So yes The Prophet sal lahu alihi wa sallam was informed of some things of unseen , so sayiing this is in now way shirk , all agreed, coz any one who will claim that the Prophet sal lahu alihi wa salam's knowledge is like the knowledge of Allah than that would be major no doibt coz u compared a creation to the creator, all agreed on this also.

But u cannot go and use this concept which is exclusive and khaas and specific of sme events in the life of the prophet , u cannot go and apply it in his life of barzagh , we cannot in any way say that He has the knowldge of unseen now and He is still getting some knowledge of unseen STILL from Allah , whenever Allah wills He gives the Prphet some knowledge of unseen and for example lets him know what is going on heer and there and who is doing what.

There are two issues here.

1- What is your prof that ths is happeneing , Did Allah inform u of it? Did jibreel come down to Inform u of this? Have U urself my brother got the knowledge of unseen to claim this? No! If u have any evidece like a hadeeth where the Prophet sala lahi alihi wa sallam said He will know the unseen after he passes away , or he will check our deeds after he pases away , bring it.

Second is that what the creed of sahaba and tabieen was , DO U AGREE THAT THE SAHABA WERE THE MOST KNOWLEDGABLE OF THE DEEN THAN ANYONE AFTER THEM?
AGREED?

Can any one ever know more than those who got it directky and fresh from teh Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam and the tabieen the the first three generations? can any one know the aqeedah more , the fiqh more , the sunnah more than them? can they?

Second can any one understaing of the verses of Quran and hadeeth of the Prphet sala lahua lihi wa sallam be more than them? can any one know it more than them? can anyone be more knowledgable of Quran and the sunnah than them? The witnesse it and they got ir fresh n annew , so can any one after them and afther a 1000 years of them come up with something or figure oit something "in the mater of the deen n aqeedah" that they could not figure out?

So now , Is this how the sahaba understood the knowledge of unseen of the Prphet ? Is this what their belief and creed and aqeedah was towards it? can u bring any evidence from any sahabai or first three genertions that they thoght or they were upon what u are upon? Is this how they understood the verses and ahadeeth , is this the way they interpreted them? or is it some thing as new as 1400 years after them , is this something as new as last year!?

This is not how they understood the ahadeeth n verses and this is not what they were upon and this was not their aqeedah.

Now my brother let me tell you where these things come froma nd explain why i said its could be as new as last year , this stance of yours.

The brelvi brothers First of All claimed these things which were refurted very strongly with very strong evidence

1- They claimed that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam has knoweldge of unseen , just as Allah , and the evidence of this belief is there in their books which their elders n startes such as ahmed raza khan wrote and those who fllowed the.

This belief was refuted so hardly that they had no where to run or hide , it was refuted with clear ayaat of quran n clear and authetic ahadeeth that NOr did the prophet have knowledge of unseen in his life nor is theer anything to suggest he has suddenly got it after he pased away.

Next they said okay kay , not al of it , but He did know some matters of unseen that Allah taught him , this again no one can refuse and those who reftued them are also agreed on this , now what they do is thake this and prove with it things that dont relate to it and for matters that there is no evidence for it.

2- They claimed the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is noor, Light and not a human being , and they would go as far as calling the one who calls him human to be a kafir or ghustaakh , they were at the beginning not wiling to accept any thing less than noor.

This again was refuted strongly with CLEAR evidence from Quran n sunnah and the had no wheer to run and hide coz they could not deny the clear ayaat nor the sahih ahadeeth nor was there any thing to suggest that the first three generations including the sahaba were upon such beliefe about the prophet sala lahu alihi wa salam.

3- THEY CLAIMED the prophet sal lahu alihi wa sallam is Hazir nazir , present and watchng/seeing , this again was reftued untill they had no excuse left so they ran again and said well he is not hazir nazir all the time , He CAN be present WHEN he WANTS to be and FOR WHOMEVER he wants to be AT what time he wants to be and further also withdrew the claim that he is present and watching everywhee and changed it to He can watch somethins at one wime IF he wills or IF Allah allows him and WHEN He wishes or when Allah allows him , to which also they had no evidence what so ever from Quran or sunnah. So he Can be present at one place and can be at another place and tehy even calimed that he comes with his body sala lahu alihi wa sallam and i have videos of ur big time schlars claiming that so dont deny. If u dont beleiev it than i suggest u stop follwing them coz its been made aparent to you that they are misguided and stop calling yourself from amonsg them.

And many many other issues , where when they were refuted they started making all sort of excuss and started felling from t all and running away and well commig up with their own thinking and twisting and turning manipulating the meanings of ahdeeth and verses to reach their own concluion and to support their views which cannot be seen in the first three generatiions and Understandings of ayaat n ahaeddth that were not understood in that manner by the sahaba n the rightly guided imams or the first 3 generation.

But any way , i wana bring your attention to the matter how u proved one thing but are seeking a completelty different menining with it and reaching a completey differet conclusion with it.

Just liek when people concluded and prove that beating the duff is permited and go and and than use all sort of instruments and their claim is only limited to the duff but it goes on and applies to everything.

Or prove that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa salam gets our salam and our salam is conveyed to him , SO WE CAN ALSO CALL UPON HIM FOR HELP and he will also hear us when we cal upon him in distress , why? well because he listens to our salam. This is taking one thing and proving it for that pasrticular matter and than going and using it for their evil purposes and proving and concluding with it things that are completely different and which wil require SPECIFIC N KHAAS AND EXCLUSIVE DALEEL AND EVIDENCE.

Any way here is the final debate and it will bring us back to the subject of the original post

Because some where in this thread the discussion went from "Hazir nazir" which means "Present and watching" To knowledge of unseen , now here the knowledge of unseen can be proved in a specific maner that yes the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa alam did knwo some unseen that Allah ijnformed him of, but How will u prove hazir nazir , coz they are two completely different matters.

First
Hazir nazir present And Watching

second

Alim ul ghaib Knower of the Unseen

These are two different things , The first one you have not proved at ALL

the sceond one u have not PROVED AT AL ALSO , WHY?

because u proved that he sala lahu alihi wa salam had only some knowledge of unseen , this is what im trying to get across , peple propve that he had some knowledge of unseen but than go n and call him Aalim of ghaib , Knower of the unseen , i ask why dont u call him sala lahu alihi wa sallam

Alim baad ul ghaib ma alamahu Allah Knower of some of the unseen which also was taught by Allah

Coz thats what can be proved notthing more notthing less

so from now on why dont u start saying the Prphet is NOT ALIM UL GHAIB , HE IS NOT KNOWER OF THE UNSEEN , HE IS KNOWER OF SOME OF THE UNSEEN , n further also explain it to be very honest and just that the unseen was also inforemd by Allah. this would be honesty and justice.

SO this mater is clear and understood an di hope agreed.

Next matter and the original question of this thread.

Is the Prophet hazir nazir ?
Is the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam PRESENT AND SEEING

This issue is completely different from the issue of ilm ul ghaib whic also u approved that the sects like deo bandis and saafis n "wahhabis" are on the right ruling and belief coz u just proved u are on that belief also so theer si notthing to fight about i-e the Prohet had some knowledge of unseen

Now the issue of Hazir Nazir and how is it Shirk to claim ANYONE besides Allah is Also Hazir Nazir

The belief that some on other than Allah is also Hazir Nazir is Shirk , and No one But Allah alone is hazir nazir nor has Allah given this atribute to any one nor does he give ths attribute temporarily to some one and shares this attribute with any one.

now that nor there is any oen LIKE Allah , Nor does any one share any atribute of Allah with Allah. The tawheed of asmaa wal siffat has to be achieved to achive oneness of Allah and u agreed that Giving and atribute Of Allah to his creation is like comparing them to Allah which is major shirk. agreed?

Now is say that ONLY ALLAH is PRESNST "HAZIR" AND WATCHING " NAZIR"

Notthing can hide from him , He hears an sees ALL , even knows what our selfes n nafs whispers to us inside our chests and what are the thoughts in our minds n our hearts , what are our intentions , ONLY ALLAH can know such things this is an attribute of Allah that NO one has nor does any one share it with Allah , i-e some one else can also do that , Know what we are doing, what we are writing , what we are saying , what we are thinking.

ليس كمثله شئى

There is Notthing like him

أمن هو قائم على كل نفس بما كسبت


Is then He (Allâh) Who takes charge(qaim) (guards, maintains, provides,witnesses etc.) of every person and knows all that he has earned (like any other deities who know nothing)? Yet they ascribe partners to Allâh. Say: "Name them! Is it that you will inform Him of something He knows not in the earth or is it (just) a show of false words." Nay! To those who disbelieve, their plotting is made fairseeming, and they have been hindered from the Right Path, and whom Allâh sends astray, for him, there is no guide.

Al raad ayah 33
وما تكون في شأن وما تتلو منه من قرآن ولا تعملون من عمل إلا كنا عليكم شهودا إذ تفيضون فيه وما يعزب عن ربك من مثقال ذرة في الأرض ولا في السماء ولا أصغر من ذلك ولا أكبر إلا في كتاب مبين

Whatever you (O Muhammad SAW) may be doing, and whatever portion you may be reciting from the Qur'ân, - and whatever deed you (mankind) may be doing (good or evil), We are Witness thereof, when you are doing it. And nothing is hidden from your Lord (so much as) the weight of an atom (or small ant) on the earth or in the heaven. Not what is less than that or what is greater than that but is (written) in a Clear Record
- Yunus 61
وعنده مفاتح الغيب لا يعلمها إلا هو ويعلم ما في البر والبحر وما تسقط من ورقة إلا يعلمها ولا حبة في ظلمات الأرض ولا رطب ولا يابس إلا في كتاب مبين And with Him are the keys of the Ghaib (all that is hidden), none knows them but He. And He knows whatever there is in (or on) the earth and in the sea; not a leaf falls, but he knows it. There is not a grain in the darkness of the earth nor anything fresh or dry, but is written in a Clear Record. Al anaam 59


وما من دابة في الأرض إلا على الله رزقها ويعلم مستقرها ومستودعها كل في كتاب مبين There And no (moving) living creature is there on earth but its provision is due from Allâh. And He knows its dwelling place and its deposit (in the uterous, grave, etc.). all is in a Clear Book (Al-Lauh Al-Mahfûz - the Book of Decrees with Allâh). Surah Hud verse 6


Dont u read these clear verses , These attributes are EXCLUSIVELY OF ALLAH , they are special and ONLY for him when ever u will make any creation share an attribute such as this great attribute u wil have commited very open n clar shirk.

You calimed earlier in this thread that if its claimed that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa salam knew what i was writing or knew what we were doing it will neither raise nor decrease his rank.

This is false , coz when u claim that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is PRESENT and WATCHING u have compared him with the Lord , U have given an ATTRIBUTE OF OUR LORD to his creation the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam there is no shirk more clear than this shirk. Its shirk in every way.

NEVER HS THE PROPHET CALIMED HE WILL BE PRESENT AND WATCHING AFTER HE PASSES AWAY, IF HE DID , BRING YOUR EVIDENCE , AND KNOW THAT THE EVIDENCE HAS TO BE KHAAAS, EXCLUSIVE AND PRECISE , DONT ATKE ONE AYAH ABOUT KNOWING SOME OF THE UNSEEN N GO AND PROVE ANOTHER 1000 THINGS WITH IT AND PROVE OTHER MATTERS WITH IT , MATTER THAT THE AYAH DOES NOT ADDRESS!!

One more way of undersading it , check the ayah again


Who watches us , is witness over us all the time , who is listening to us al the time , who is hearing our whisperinsg n knowing our thoughts all the time ,

What the answer , ALLAH? or ALLAH and His Messenegr?

And if u choose the second , is that not shirk , La shareek lahu , There is no partner with Alllah , No one acts in his kingdom with his actions , no one can share his attributes , no one shares his kingdom or actions , no one can ever help him out or be a partner to him or share anything with him , stop making partners with Allah , this is exactly what the christians did with jesus , do u think they woke up one day and claimed Jesus is Son of Allah , No rather it was the ghuloo , it was thier love and they exceeded in it , they went from one claim to another untill they said jesus is God ! This is exactly what ghuloo does , when u raise some one above his levels and exgaerrate him , this is the only end result and u are headingto it , giving the Propet sala lahu alihi wa sallam The Ability to be Present and WATCHING , that he is reading what ever we are writing!! Only Allah knows what we are doing and what we say and think and hear and see, Only Allah knows this , and well

If u claim well what about the angels appointed on us dont they see also ,

1- I say wel they have been appointed by Allah over me , so their only limited to me they wont even know what my brother is doing , to him are his own angels appointed.

2- We were informed about their appointment by Allah in quran and in the many many ahadeeth

3- they have limited capabilities , not in nay way close to Allah , which also were again proved with evidence and the sahaba and tabieen and first three generations and rightly guidd imams believed in it all and this is how they understood it , we stop where they stopped.

The claim that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is also PRESNT AND SEEING ,
1- He was not Appointed by ALLAH to do this , This was not his mission nor is tis his assigmnet , HE was a basheer and nazeer , a giver of glad tiding and a warner!

2- There is no specific , exclusive , clear , precise evidence that says the Prophet will be watching when he passes away , or Allah will give him some of what is for Allah , some of the Attributes , some of the actions, some of the duties , No there is no Khaas evidence of it and a general hadeetha nd ayah that does not EXACTLY mean this canot be used to conclude this.

3- The sahaba , the tabieen , the first thre genereation the rightly guided imams ans schlars did not beleive that , This is not how they undrstood the ayaat that u bring to claim this claim , this is not how they understood the ahadeeth , this is not what they were upon , this is not how they interpreted them , this is not what they were taught , this is not what their aqeedah was , their creed their belief.


U claim that notthing can hide from the Prophet just like Allah m tis is shirk , coz its ONLY ALLAH from whom notthing hides , and is aware f everything just like me writing this , soem one might claim that wel the angels , i say they are NOT witness to everything , their presence is limited to over a person , Not every creation , Only Allah watches all , only Allah sees all ,the creations like angels might ONLY see what Alah allows them or appoints them to do , the angels are a creation that do exactly what they are told.

Now u will come and claim that No no teh Propjet does not see all ,
He can see SOME THINGS , ONE AT A TIME , OR ONE PERSON AT A TIME , WHEN HE WILLS , OR WHEN ALLAH WILLS , bith of them are invalid , coz there is no specicfic prof of it nor did the prophet sala lahua lihi wa salam inform us of it nor is tis how the ayaat u mention and ahadeeth were understood by those better than us and definetly more knowledgble of the deen than us. So u cannot claim that Allah can show the Prphet sala lahu alihi wa salam what Allah wills and let him be present and watching when Allah wills coz Allah did not inform us of this in qurana n dthe prophet sala lahu alihi wa salam did not inform us in his life there is no other way of us knowing taht coz jibreel does not come to none of us.

Know that the aqeedah and belief is what will take u out of imaan n islam , it will be the cause of u commiting shirk , it will be cause of u or me becoming a kafir.

These ayat i posted are only a few , but very strong ones

Lets take the first one only
أمن هو قائم على كل نفس بما كسبت


Is then He (Allâh) Who takes charge(qaim) (guards, maintains, provides,witnesses etc.) of every person and knows all that he has earned (like any other deities who know nothing)? Yet they ascribe partners to Allâh. Say: "Name them! Is it that you will inform Him of something He knows not in the earth or is it (just) a show of false words." Nay! To those who disbelieve, their plotting is made fairseeming, and they have been hindered from the Right Path, and whom Allâh sends astray, for him, there is no guide.


1- Who is witness (qaim , present) over every soul? Allah ? or Allah and his prophet? who know what ever soul eans from good and bad and what ever we do , Allah or Allah and his prophet?

Allah says if its ANYONE BESIDES ALLAH NAME THEM?!

So what name will u give here

Muhamad sala lahu alihi wa sallam , when Allah is asking in teh quran , WHo is Qaim or witness over every soul ( other than me)? will u say the Prophet ? coz Than Allah continues to say it that you will inform Him of something He knows not in the earth or is it (just) a show of false words. Is it u who inform Allah of something that He knows not , meaning he did not inform us ? ie The prphet is also a witness n presnet ? Ar eu teling Allah what Allah didnt know? or didnt inform us? Lastly Nay! To those who disbelieve, their plotting is made fairseeming, and they have been hindered from the Right Path, and whom Allâh sends astray, for him, there is no guide.

Dr. Mohsin : Is then He (Allâh) Who takes charge (guards, maintains, provides) of every person and knows all that he has earned (like any other deities who know nothing)? Yet they ascribe partners to Allâh. Say: "Name them! Is it that you will inform Him of something He knows not in the earth or is it (just) a show of false words." Nay! To those who disbelieved, their plotting is made fairseeming, and they have been hindered from the Right Path, and whom Allâh sends astray, for him, there is no guide.
Pickthal : Is He Who is aware of the deserts of every soul (as he who is aware of nothing)? Yet they ascribe unto Allah partners. Say: Name them. Is it that ye would inform Him of something which He knoweth not in the earth? Or is it but a way of speaking? Nay but their contrivance is made seeming fair for those who disbelieve and they are kept from the right road. He whom Allah sendeth astray, for him there is no guide.
Yusuf Ali : Is then He Who standeth over every soul (and knoweth) all that it doth, (like any others)? And yet they ascribe partners to Allah. Say: "But name them! Is it that ye will inform Him of something He knoweth not on earth, or is it (just) a show of words?" Nay! to those who believe not, their pretence seems pleasing, but they are kept back (thereby) from the Path: and those whom Allah leaves to stray, no one can guide.

the ayah clearly states , THAT NO ONE EXCEPT ALLAH IS A WITNESS OVER EVER SOUL AND PRESNET OVER IT. and ayah clearly says that the one who claims there si some one else has joined partners with Allah , and then Alah goes ahead and says Dont speak of what u have not been inforemd , coz when u do u are basically telling Allah what Allah does not know , u are claming u knwo more than Allah ,Allah says KALA ! NAY! as in tehre is no one besides alla h that is present and hearing and lastely explains what is it with such peole , To those who disbelieved, their plotting is made fairseeming, and they have been hindered from the Right Path, and whom Allâh sends astray, for him, there is no guide.




Now let me prove to you another way of why it is shirk.

When we do a deed , or when we leave or abandon a sin , and dont do a sin , are we doing it coz
1- Allah is watching u s
2- The prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is watching us
3- They are both watching us

The first answer is correct teh last two are shirk, why?

Coz teh conditions of doing the deeds are two

1- ikhlaas , pure for the sake of Allah , For his pleasure , seeking his reward , out of his fear, knowing he is watching.

2- It has to be in accordance with the sunnah and how the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam taught us.

Now if either one of theses two conditions are not fulfilled the amal will be rejected and as proved in a hadeeth about hidden shirk , it is shirk for a person that when he is praying and sees some one watching him he beatifies his prayer , Allah takes this as shirk , U have done this deed for the sake of that person watching , so u have made him a partner with Allah.

Now in the same way , if some one is doing deeds and there is a even slight whispering or thought in his heart that the Prophet is watching him , would this not be shirk? we do not know how the life of barzakh of Prphet is , i mean what does he do or does not do , he did not tell us i will be wayching so be careful , He told us Allah will be watching m be mindful of Alllah , he never tod us be moindful of me , He never asked us todo deeds for his pleasure rather for Allah's [pleasure.

Now what about a person who believes the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sllam is HAZIR , PRESENT AND NAZIR , WATCHING , If this is his creed all his deeds are invalid while he is comiting shirk al the time, coz Allah is watching , and even if lets for one second assume tha tthe Prphet sala lahu alihi wa salam is present and watching , HOW WOULD WE KNOW THAT HE IS HERE? WHAT TIME AND DAY OR NIGHT OR EVENT THAT WOULD BE , MILAAD UN NABI???!?!!! got any proof for that as wel do u?

Will he sala lahu alihi wa salam come if u were playin gmusic n old sheikhs n men were dancing on a stage whle peple were acting like they are having some sort of seizures is that when the Prophet will come and wach , and how will u know , will u feel him in the air?!!! How ??!!

Even if he will happen to cross by such an event He will probably stick his fingers in his ears from the music n drums that are being payed , coz we all know duff only make one tome while the table can make up to three tones , so its not the same as duff so dont even coem and say duff id allowed. what about the flute and the harmonium n pinaos ??

this is a different issue.

Please open ur eyes , stop follwoing a path , that was non existent at the time of the prophet , a creed and belief that was not oresnet at his time nor at his sahabas tiem nor tabieens time nor was it existent in teh first three generations , if it was bring ur proof that the tought the prophet is watching and PRESNT .

How can he be presnet ? with his body ? or just with his haring and knowledge n seeing? how will u prove them individually or collectively?

fear Allah.
Reply

qadir al jilani
04-19-2010, 12:36 AM
Alhamdulillah looks like you put a lot of effort in your reply which I appreciate.
But I will like to say I think you wrote an extremely weak respond. The basis for this is the fact you did not address issues in one rather you addressed same issue and raised identical points many times which meant they were scattered around. This makes the person responding irritated as I do not want to address and clarify the same point again. Also I will respond to points which I think you made which were of relation to the subject matter.
I did not clarify and shed light upon all issues which you raised as some of your statements were clouded with emotions and personal hatred for other sects. Therefore I did not have to even go further with the issue.
Yes i agree with the above , u are doing what the people with your metyhodology always do , prove one thing and aply it on other things athat do not compare to it.
You obviously misunderstood my previous post and consequently taught the above. I did not say that the Prophet is hazir and nazir and rather just conveyed my belief that he has some knowledge of the unseen like you agreed. Please next time take some time in understanding what I posted J

What is your prof that ths is happeneing , Did Allah inform u of it? Did jibreel come down to Inform u of this? Have U urself my brother got the knowledge of unseen to claim this? No! If u have any evidece like a hadeeth where the Prophet sala lahi alihi wa sallam said He will know the unseen after he passes away , or he will check our deeds after he pases away , bring it.
What I understand from your above post is you are asking what is your proof that after the Prophet death he still receives some knowledge of the unseen.
Below is more then enough proof to prove the Prophet is alive in his grave and still receives some knowledge of the unseen:
Regarding the Martyrs (Shuhada), those who are slain in the path of Allah, Allah Ta^ala says in the Holy Quran:
"And say not of those who are slain in the Way of Allah 'They are dead'. Nay, they are living, though you perceive it not". (al-Baqarah: 154)

Think not of those who are slain in Allah's Way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the Presence of their Lord". (al-Ale' Imraan: 169)

Since it is evident from the Holy Quran that the Martyrs are alive, then it follows that the Ambiya (alaihimus salaam), whose status are much greater than that of the Martyrs, are also alive. (Fathul Baari Sharah Bukhari)
The above two Ayahs were revealed after the Battle of Badr. The companions used to feel sorry for those who lost their lives in the battle, and used to say:

"Alas, so and so has lost his life and has missed the pleasures of this world!"
Allah Ta'ala revealed these Ayahs clarifying that the Shuhada (Martyrs) are not "dead" but are transferred from one place to another where they live and are fed by the Bounteous Lord who is not deficient of anything. If the Shuhada are not "dead", how can we say that the greatest Apostle, Sayyiduna Rasoolullah, is not alive in his blessed grave?
It was declared in a Hadith, "When a person greets me, Allah Ta'ala sends my soul to my body and I hear his greeting." Some people quoting this Hadith say that the Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is not alive since his soul returns to his body only when he is greeted.

Imam Jalaal'uddeen as-Suyuti said in the book "Anba' al-adhkiya' fi hayat il-anbiya" that "radda" means "ala al-dawam", i.e. permanently, and not temporarily: in other words, Allah does not return the soul and take it back, then return it again and then take it back again, but He has returned it to Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) permanently, and the Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is alive permanently, not intermittently as some ignorant people have suggested.
Another hadith where the Prophet said:
My life is a great good for you, you will relate about me and it will be related to you, and my death is a great good for you, your actions will be exhibited to me, and if I see goodness I will praise Allah, and if I see evil I will ask forgiveness of Him for you."
(The hadith master al-`Iraqi said in the book of Jana'iz of his work Tarh al-Tathrib fi Sharh al-Taqrib: "Its chain is good" (isnâduhu jayyid). The hadith master al-Haythami said: "Al-Bazzar narrated it and its sub-narrators are the men of the Sahih." The hadith master al-Suyuti declared it sound (sahîh) in al-Mu`jizat and al-Khasa'is. So did al-Qastallani the commentator of al-Bukhari. Al-Munawi also declared, in Fayd al-Qadir, that it is sahîh. So did al-Zurqani in his commentary on al-Qastallani's al-Mawahib al-Laduniyya. So did Shihab al-Din al-Khafaji in his commentary on [al-Qadi `Iyad's] al-Shifa'. So did al-Mulla `Ali al-Qari in his, adding: "Al-Harith ibn Usama narrated it in his Musnad with a sound chain." Ibn Hajar also mentioned it in al-Matalib al-`Alya. This hadith also came to us through another, mursal way from [the Tabi`î] Bakr ibn `Abd Allah al-Muzani. The hadith master Isma`il al-Qadi narrated it in his monograph on the invocation of blessings on the Prophet , and Shaykh al-Albani said about it: "Mursal sahîh."11 The hadith master Ibn `Abd al-Hadi declared it sound (sahîh) despite his excessive rigor and harshness in his book al-Sarim al-Munki. After all this evidence, does any meddler have anything left to say? The hadith is undoubtedly sound, and no-one questions its authenticity.)
Hazrat Abu Darda (May Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet (PBUH) said: ‘Whosoever sends durood upon me, it is presented before me as soon as he finishes.' Hazrat Abu Darda (May Allah be pleased with him) further reports that I asked: ‘Is this also the case after death?' The Prophet (PBUH) replied: ‘The Earth has been prohibited by Allah to eat the bodies of the Prophets,' (Ibne Majah)
It was narrated in a saheeh report that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Prophets are alive in their graves and they pray.” (Narrated by al-Bazzaar; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2790).
Our Prophet said “On the night of Miraj I passed Prophet Musa’s grave. He was standing in his grave and offering Salat” (Muslim,chapter “Fadhail Musa”)
Even Ibn Taymiyah said “A group of people heard the answer of their salaam. And in the days of Harrah, Said Ibn Al-Musayyib heard the voice of our Prophet saying the Adhan, from his grave. And there are more events like these and they are all true” (Ibn Taymiyah, Iqtidah Siratul-Mustakeen, Page 373)

The above undoubtedly proves with a 100% certainty that the Prophet is alive and still receives some knowledge of the unseen in his blessed grave.
Second is that what the creed of sahaba and tabieen was , DO U AGREE THAT THE SAHABA WERE THE MOST KNOWLEDGABLE OF THE DEEN THAN ANYONE AFTER THEM?
AGREED?
Yes I agree, the blessed companions of the Prophet and the scholars of the first three centuries were among the greatest of people who understood the Quran and hadith the best.
This is evident by the saying:
Narrated by `Abdullah: The Prophet said, "The best people are those of my generation, and then those who will come after them (the next generation), and then those who will come after them (i.e. the next generation), and then after them, there will come people whose witness will precede their oaths, and whose oaths will precede their witness.”
The brelvi brothers First of All claimed these things which were refurted very strongly with very strong evidence

1- They claimed that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam has knoweldge of unseen , just as Allah , and the evidence of this belief is there in their books which their elders n startes such as ahmed raza khan wrote and those who fllowed the.
To begin with I am far from being a Brelvi and I personally believe that you have attributed a fabrication to them. I have met numerous Brelvi brothers and none of them have ever claimed that the Prophet knows all the unseen and neither did their Sheikh Imam Ahmed Raza Khan (May Allah raise his rank).
Rather what you find in their books is far from this accusation. You obviously do not understand the issue, which is that some so called “Brelvis” might claim that the Prophet knowledge is similar to Allah but the fallacy you have made is that these people are not “Brelvis” rather these people are “So called Brelvis”.
2- They claimed the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is noor, Light and not a human being , and they would go as far as calling the one who calls him human to be a kafir or ghustaakh , they were at the beginning not wiling to accept any thing less than noor.
Yes you are precise here they belief the Prophet is a physical light which I also consider as incorrect as it is apparent the first creation was water after pondering on the verses of the glorious Quran. This issue of water being the first creation is among the issues which there is an Ijma among.
The second part of your statement is wrong as they do not deem the one who believes the Prophet not to be a light as a kafir and this is very far fetched. Their own Sheikh and his followers consider that this issue is a difference in opinion among the Mujtahid imams. This is the actual belief of the Brelvis regarding the issue which you raised.
I think if you have an issue regarding Brelvis you should contact them and elucidate this misconception you have towards them. I can assist you as I can direct you to one of their centers so you can do the aforementioned.
I will like to clarify that I belief that the Prophet was blessed with some knowledge of the unseen whiles he was alive. I also believe firmly that the Prophet is alive in his grave as mentioned in the Quran explicitly and by the elite scholars and that even in his grave he is receiving knowledge of the unseen.
Just to make the issue clearer regarding the Brelvi belief, I asked a Brelvi brother what do Brelvi mean when they say the Prophet is present and he said “In a metaphorical sense and not literal like some claim”.
Please open ur eyes , stop follwoing a path , that was non existent at the time of the prophet , a creed and belief that was not oresnet at his time nor at his sahabas tiem nor tabieens time nor was it existent in teh first three generations , if it was bring ur proof that the tought the prophet is watching and PRESNT .
Where did I say he is present and watching? I think if you spent more time understanding and comprehending the statements which I made you will not come to such a fallacy.
I totally agree and affirm without your statement that the Prophet is not present and watching. I remember my sheikh explaining this and he said “The angels come to the Prophet in his grave everyday and tell the Prophet certain things regarding the state of his Ummah.”




Reply

brotherubaid
04-19-2010, 02:17 PM
What I understand from your above post is you are asking what is your proof that after the Prophet death he still receives some knowledge of the unseen.
Below is more then enough proof to prove the Prophet is alive in his grave and still receives some knowledge of the unseen:
Regarding the Martyrs (Shuhada), those who are slain in the path of Allah, Allah Ta^ala says in the Holy Quran:
"And say not of those who are slain in the Way of Allah 'They are dead'. Nay, they are living, though you perceive it not". (al-Baqarah: 154)

“ Think not of those who are slain in Allah's Way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the Presence of their Lord". (al-Ale' Imraan: 169)

Since it is evident from the Holy Quran that the Martyrs are alive, then it follows that the Ambiya (alaihimus salaam), whose status are much greater than that of the Martyrs, are also alive. (Fathul Baari Sharah Bukhari)
The above two Ayahs were revealed after the Battle of Badr. The companions used to feel sorry for those who lost their lives in the battle, and used to say:

"Alas, so and so has lost his life and has missed the pleasures of this world!"
Allah Ta'ala revealed these Ayahs clarifying that the Shuhada (Martyrs) are not "dead" but are transferred from one place to another where they live and are fed by the Bounteous Lord who is not deficient of anything. If the Shuhada are not "dead", how can we say that the greatest Apostle, Sayyiduna Rasoolullah, is not alive in his blessed grave?
It was declared in a Hadith, "When a person greets me, Allah Ta'ala sends my soul to my body and I hear his greeting." Some people quoting this Hadith say that the Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is not alive since his soul returns to his body only when he is greeted.

Imam Jalaal'uddeen as-Suyuti said in the book "Anba' al-adhkiya' fi hayat il-anbiya" that "radda" means "ala al-dawam", i.e. permanently, and not temporarily: in other words, Allah does not return the soul and take it back, then return it again and then take it back again, but He has returned it to Rasoolullah (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) permanently, and the Prophet (sallal laahu alaihi wasallam) is alive permanently, not intermittently as some ignorant people have suggested.
Another hadith where the Prophet said:
“My life is a great good for you, you will relate about me and it will be related to you, and my death is a great good for you, your actions will be exhibited to me, and if I see goodness I will praise Allah, and if I see evil I will ask forgiveness of Him for you."
(The hadith master al-`Iraqi said in the book of Jana'iz of his work Tarh al-Tathrib fi Sharh al-Taqrib: "Its chain is good" (isnâduhu jayyid). The hadith master al-Haythami said: "Al-Bazzar narrated it and its sub-narrators are the men of the Sahih." The hadith master al-Suyuti declared it sound (sahîh) in al-Mu`jizat and al-Khasa'is. So did al-Qastallani the commentator of al-Bukhari. Al-Munawi also declared, in Fayd al-Qadir, that it is sahîh. So did al-Zurqani in his commentary on al-Qastallani's al-Mawahib al-Laduniyya. So did Shihab al-Din al-Khafaji in his commentary on [al-Qadi `Iyad's] al-Shifa'. So did al-Mulla `Ali al-Qari in his, adding: "Al-Harith ibn Usama narrated it in his Musnad with a sound chain." Ibn Hajar also mentioned it in al-Matalib al-`Alya. This hadith also came to us through another, mursal way from [the Tabi`î] Bakr ibn `Abd Allah al-Muzani. The hadith master Isma`il al-Qadi narrated it in his monograph on the invocation of blessings on the Prophet , and Shaykh al-Albani said about it: "Mursal sahîh."11 The hadith master Ibn `Abd al-Hadi declared it sound (sahîh) despite his excessive rigor and harshness in his book al-Sarim al-Munki. After all this evidence, does any meddler have anything left to say? The hadith is undoubtedly sound, and no-one questions its authenticity.)
Hazrat Abu Darda (May Allah be pleased with him) reports that the Prophet (PBUH) said: ‘Whosoever sends durood upon me, it is presented before me as soon as he finishes.' Hazrat Abu Darda (May Allah be pleased with him) further reports that I asked: ‘Is this also the case after death?' The Prophet (PBUH) replied: ‘The Earth has been prohibited by Allah to eat the bodies of the Prophets,' (Ibne Majah)
It was narrated in a saheeh report that the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “The Prophets are alive in their graves and they pray.” (Narrated by al-Bazzaar; classed as saheeh by al-Albaani in Saheeh al-Jaami’, 2790).
Our Prophet said “On the night of Miraj I passed Prophet Musa’s grave. He was standing in his grave and offering Salat” (Muslim,chapter “Fadhail Musa”)
Even Ibn Taymiyah said “A group of people heard the answer of their salaam. And in the days of Harrah, Said Ibn Al-Musayyib heard the voice of our Prophet saying the Adhan, from his grave. And there are more events like these and they are all true” (Ibn Taymiyah, Iqtidah Siratul-Mustakeen, Page 373)

The above undoubtedly proves with a 100% certainty that the Prophet is alive and still receives some knowledge of the unseen in his blessed grave.


First of All may Alah reward you for replying and trying.

All the above evidence no one will ever disagree with it , but again u did what i was reffering to , U ONLY

Proved and the evidence u provided ONLY proves the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is alive and recieves sustinance an recieves our salam but u did taweel to derive other conclusions from it as well. see the verse says

And say not of those who are slain in the Way of Allah 'They are dead'. Nay, they are living, though you perceive it not

Think not of those who are slain in Allah's Way as dead. Nay, they are alive, finding their sustenance in the Presence of their Lord

What does these two ayaat n ahadeeth u quoted prove really.

1- The prophets alihum as sallam and martyrs are alive , in their graves or with their lord in jannah.

2- they recieve sustinence

3- they pray

4- The Prophet hears our salam , not by himslef but rather it gets conveyed to him( proves neither does he know the ghaib nor is he present)
BUT NO WHERE IN THOSE AYAAT OR AHADEETH DOES IT SAY THEY ARE PRESENT AND WATCHING/SEEING , AS THAT WAS THE ISSUE RAISED IN THIS THREAD IN THE FIRST PLACE.NOR DOES IT SAY IN THOSE AYAAT N AHADTIH U QUOTED THAT HE STILL GETS TO KNOW SOME OF THE UNSEEN AND ALLAH STILL INFORMS HIM OF SOME OF THE UNSEEN.

and that is why i got into this thread to explain why it is shirk to believe that te Prphet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is present with us as Allah is present with us , he hears n sees , He even knows what we are writing as u claimed in one of your earlier posts.

Now again the evidence u presented does not in any way prove that , reather it does prove that

1-He sala lahua alihi wa salam is alive .

2- He Hears our salams n darood.

3- He recieves his sustenance

4- He prays or anbiyaa in general pray.

the Ayah says

بل احياء عند ربهم يرزقون
Think not of those who are killed in the Way of Allâh as dead. Nay, they are alive, with their Lord, and they have provisionز

As muslims we first of All believe in this Ayah , but we have to stop where the ayah stops as the Life of Prophets sal lahu alihim is also a matter on unseen itself. How are they Alive , how do they recieve their rizq , its all life of barzakh and its all unseen , whats up to us is to believe in it and affirm it and to stop where the ayah atops n to take from teh ayah what it gives us.

Now can u show me in arabic or english where exactly does in that ayah it says they ARE HAZIR NAZIR , as i explained earlier that Hazir nazir Means PRESNET and Watching. Or where does in this ayah we are informed that he gets to know some of the unseen by Alah aftre He sala lahu alihi wa sallam departed us and is in his life of barzakh

Does the ayah say حاضرون ناظرون or does it say عند ربهم يرزقون بعلم الغيب ??

Does the ayah say they are Presnent and with us where ever we are and Watching us and seeing us? Does it or does they Ayah say , No , but they are alive with their lord getting/recieving the knowledge of unseen?


Also about the martyrs ayah which u applied , we believe it but How are they alive is amtter of unseen , and yes some texts do show how land where like this here.

The Prophet – May the Salaah and Salaam of Allah be upon him – said to Umm Haarithah bint an-Nu’maan – after her son was killed in the battle of Badr – after she asked: “Where is he (i.e. is he in Paradise or the Fire)?” – he replied, “Indeed, he is in the highest Firdaws” [al-Bukhaari]

“Indeed the souls of the martyrs are in the hearts of green birds, and they have lanterns hanging underneath the 'arsh (the throne of Allaah). They roam around in Paradise wherever they wish, then they return to their lanterns. So, their Lord enquires: “Do you desire anything?” They say, “What can we desire for, when we roam around in Paradise wherever we wish?” And He asks them this three times. When they realize that they will not cease to be questioned, they say, “O Lord! We wish that you return our souls to our bodies, in order that we be killed in Your Path again” When it is realized that they have no need, they will be left alone.” [Muslim

“The Shuhadaa` are in a green dome beside the river of Baariq, near the gate of Paradise, from which provision comes to them morning and evening” [Saheeh al-Jami 3/235 # 3636]

This is how the ayah was understood by the Prophet and sahaba
When your brothers were killed at Uhud, Allah placed their souls in the hearts of green birds. They frequent the rivers of Paradise, and eat from its fruits, then return to the lanterns under the Throne. When they enjoy the good in their food and drink, and their excellent speech, they say, “We wish that our brothers knew what Allah has prepared for us, so that they will never abstain from Jihad, nor will they refrain from war” So Allah said, “I will inform them of you” So Allah revealed these verses to His Messenger:


“Think not of those killed in the Path of Allah is dead...” (3:169) [Ahmad, Abu Dawud, al-Hakim classified it Saheeh and adh-Dhahabi agreed]



So how can they be present and waching us? how can the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam be Present with us and watching us and knowing of what we do. We affirm and believe what the texts tell us and stop where the text stops and do not conclude conclusions on our own beyond the texts

“The Shaheed is granted seven special favours from Allah. He is forgiven (his sins) at the first drop of his blood. He sees his place in Paradise. He is dressed in the clothes of Iman. He is married to the Hoor al-‘Ain (beautiful women of Paradise). He is saved from the punishment of the grave. He will be protected from the great fear of the Day of Judgement. A crown of honour will be placed on his head, one jewel of which is better than the whole world and what it contains. He is married to seventy-two of the Hoor al-‘Ain (beautiful women of Paradise), and he will be able to intercede for seventy members of his family.” [Saheeh – Related by Ahmad, at-Tirmidhi and Ibn Hibbaan]

even here there are seven favors awarded to shaheeds , i do not see knowedge of unseen in there nor do i see them being present and watching or hazir nazir.


Does the ayat and ahadeeth u brough say they are Presnent and with us where ever we are and Watching us and seeing us? Does it or does they Ayah say , No , but they are alive with their lord getting/recieving the knowledge of unseen?

It does not , It was the taweel u did to prove something that the ayah does not prove, this was my point , this is always the way of the people of innovation , they take one ayah that proves one thing and then do taweel of it and make it prove something that has notthing to do with it , nor does it in any way means what they make it mean. So outwardly they bring u quran and hadeeth but what their chests conceal is bigger , وما يخفى صدورهم اكبر

Its very often that they will bring an evidence and prove one thing for one situation or person and than clam if its true for him why cant it be true for such and such , or If he has this why cant he have that also , I say no ,bring ur proof , the matters of aqeedah require an exclusive n khaas daleel and evidence.

We cannot ASSUME!!

Again brother , the topic of this thread was hazir nazir , which some people here dodged and changed it to knowledge of unseen , which can be partially proved, while hazir nazir cannot ever be proved in any way whatsoever. so result , lets prove that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam did get some knowledge of unseen inhis life so this proves he is still getting knowledge of unseen after he has passed away?? ,but the texts only prove he is alive and geting our salam and sustinance and belssings from his lord. This is where the evidece stops but u made taweel of it to claim that if he can get sustinance he can ALSO get knwoledge of unseen , which u ASSUMED without any exclusive evidence. So u are saying He sala lahu alihi wa sallam CAN , and COULD N MIGHT , i say this is not how deen is , matters of aqeedah do not revolve aroound could and should and might rather we need affirmed and exclusive rexts from quran n sunnah.

One more thing to prove the whole hazir nazir issue wrong. People only prove it by proving the Very Partial Knowledge of Unseen He sala lahu alihi wa sallam was given.

And i have tried to prove that they are two diffrent matters and each would require its own exclusive daleel.
Now InshahAllah i will prove how they cannot be combined and how He sala lahu alihi wa sallam having knwoledge of unseen did not mean he was hazir nazir at that time raher given by Allah.

They events in the Life of the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam where he was gievn knowledge of some matters , did the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam get that Knoweldge by being Present and watching over those matters or by Allah revealing to him?

For example the death of Najashi , Did the Prphet sala lahu alihi wa sallam kow of his death coz he was Present*(hazir) at his death or some how he was watching and witnessing(nazir) at his death?

the answer is easy and simple , he was NOT HAZIR NAZIR AT NAJASHIS DEATH , RATHER ALLAH REVEALED TO HIM , and thsi is the case with all the other occasions , Allah gave him the Knowledge He sala lahu alihi wa salam was not HAZIR NAZIR.

So even proving the Knowledge of unseen matter does not prove Hazir nazir matter.

So even if we were to assume that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa salam is getting some knoweldge of unseen ( to which there is no proof , apart from our salams which he recieves and darood) It does not prove he is hazir nazir , coz we have PROVED THAT ALLAH GIVES HIM THE KNOWELDGE AND INFORMS HIM HE SALA LAHU ALIHI WA SALLAM IS NOT PRESENT AND WATCHING HIMSELF.

So actually by Proving that The prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam IS getting Knowledge of UNSEEN and pay attenetion "UNSEEN" meaning He is NOT SEEING , meaning HE IS NOT PRESENT , U ARE ACTUALY REFUTING THE CALIM OF HAZIR NAZIR / CLAIM OF PRESENT AND WATCHING . So by proving knowledge of Unseen u are not proving hazir nazir in any way rather refuting it , and to remind u also that geting knwoledge of unseen ( after he sala lahu alihi wa sallam) passed away ahs not been proved , what the texts posted proved was

1-He is Alive sal lahu alihi wa salla, so just like he was alive in this world and didnt knwo the Unseen in this world nor was he hazir nazir in this world notthing suggests now in his life of barzakh he has not only become present and watching ( an attribute of Allah) but also knows the unseen. ( notthing in ur evidence proves he knows the unseen or is hazir nazir)

2- He recieves his sustianace

3- He recieves our salat and salam.

4- Prophets alihim us sallam pray.

This is what the texts prove , but u exgarrrated and said IF the recieve sustinance They CAN recieve Knowledge of unseen as well , which is not supported by any evidence as a matter of creed would require PLUS hazir nazir cannot be proved by it in any sense what so ever.

And if we do prove he is Alive in his grave , it will only prove he will never be HAZIR present in Pakistan ( for example) NOr will he be watching ( NAZIR ) in india ( for example ) not even in madeenah for that matter , Coz his grave sala lahu alihi wa salam would have been turned in a garden from the gardens of Jannah and IF there is anything He is watching and seeing its the blessings of Allah and the beauty of jannah and IF teher is anything he is gearing is Our salams and darood and If there is anyhthing he is recieveing in sustinance its the sustinance of his lord from the gardens of paradise and all these are matters of unseen which we believe , affirm and do not amke it up and do its taweel and imagine it or explain it as How and what.

I hope the points get across.


Please the Most importat is that Knowing "some" of the unseen and being "Present" and " watching" are two different things , as knowing the unseen even in his life was not the result of him being Hazir nazir.

And as far as brevlis go , will u agree that their heads in our time are
sheikh ul islam tahir ul qadri and ilyas qadri the ameer of ahle sunnet.right?

Now if i show u a CONCERT where a person is singing with LOTS of instrumenst and Tahirul qadri is flossing rupees on his head and the words of the qawali are this.

Jo mangna hay yaaro mang lo kyoun kat huzoor bhi hain yahan moujod , muhammad shamae mehfil

" What ever u wana ask of friends Ask now as the Present is also present here , Muhamamd is the candle(light) f this event/gathering"

So here this is shirk on top of shirk , coz he is asking them to seek from the Prophet , ask him , and also claiming that He is THERE. which is not possible coz it cannot be proved from quran n sunnah. Coz if u prove he is present than is the grave empty , and if u say present with his knwoledge and watching than its shirk coz Only Allah can be present somewheer with his knowledge and sight. This is for the Hazr nazr part of this qawali and the next part is even worse coz he asks them to ask of the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam which is shirk.

اياك نعبد واياك نستعين
you Alone we worship and you ALONE we seek help from.

Seeking forgiveness , help , assisatance , problem solving, jannah , is not from the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam , raher its from ALLAH Alone , we canot ask anyone besides him.

except for what is under the asbaab , like i just asked my mom for lunch and my uncle for some money , but when they are not here with me, like if my mom passes away u will never see me at her grave asking her for breakfast , and as far as problem like finaicail or anyother diffciculties go , yes i can ask the creation that are around me and have the ability to help me like i just asked my uncle for some money , but if he was to die as a martyr , and i know he is alive with his lord getting his sustinance and not dead i still wont go to his grave and ask him for a couple of thousand dirhams.

so its not shirk to ask the creaton whats under the asbaab or what they own , rather whats not under the asbaab or those who are in the life of barzakh and those who have passed away and are with their lord.

also we have no proof what so ever that the Prophet listens to us when we call upon him for help or assistance or make dua from him , yes there is evidence that he hears our salam sala lahu alihi wa sallam and darood ( salawat) but that is where we stop, we dont go the brelvi road and say well , IF he can hear our salam he CAN / MIGHT / COULD / SHOULD also hear our duaa so we ask him for help , we ask him to solve our problems , we ask him for all sort of matters.


Any way i hope its clear that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is not Hazir nazir , He is not present and watching , NOt All the time definetly as that would be shirk coz its an attribute of ALLAH ALONE , no one from his creation can be everywhere hearing and watching , nor does the prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam become hazir nazir part-time , coz there is no clear and exclusive evidence of that nor even close to that.

barak Allah feek.

Plus most importantly , THIS IS NOT WHAT THE SAHABA WERE UPON , They did not have the beliefs that teh brelvis were upon , so our salvation is only in fllwoing n believeing and doing what the Prphet sala lahu alihi wa sallam and his companions were upon , and i hope i do not have to quote the obvious and famous ahadeeth of that mater , the hadeeth of drawinga nd line and other lines besides it and the hadeeth of 73 sects for example.

lets go back and trace back the aqeedaha nd beliefs and deen that was at their time to be from thsoe who will be the saved sect and stay away from these newly invented creeds n beleifs and even worships and

Allahul Mustaan.
Reply

brotherubaid
04-19-2010, 02:21 PM
By the way I am glad to know that you do not believe that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam is hazir n nazir. I must have misunderstood , but when u said that by believeing that the prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam knows what we are writing does not in any way raise his rank is where probably i assumed u were of the opinion that he is hazir nazir.

But bro those having this opinion fall into shirk , as ONLY Allah is hazir nazir. So InshahAllah i hope u can agree to this and try to research about it as wel.

barak Allah feek , please do check my reply before this though.
Reply

cat eyes
04-19-2010, 04:39 PM
Originally Posted by KittenLover
My friend says that there's a verse in Qur'an that says "We have made you (muhammed saw) a witness over them untill the day of resurection" and he said this is proof that the prophet pbuh can see us and is present and if we deny this then we are kafur because we reject the verse.

I said to him but this Allah's attribute alone, but then he said well that's what Allah says in Qur'an.

If anyone has a good book on this topic refuting all the verses that they bring forth to proove this claim I would be grateful. No doubt he is just pcking verses and not looking at the tafseer behind them or proper interpretation. he said he will get me referenes for the verses.
Well this is certainly not true because that means hes given the prophet (saw) attribute that only Allah swt has and Allah has appointed Angels the job of recording our bad and good deeds for Allah alone to judge.
Reply

cat eyes
04-19-2010, 04:46 PM
Originally Posted by qadir al jilani
Yes Allah grants the Prophet certain knowledge of the unseen but this does not mean he knows everything. Also him knowing every little detail like me writing this reply does not increase or decrease his rank.
We MUST be careful of putting any prophet on the same rank as Allah swt for only Allah is the knower of the unseen and knows everything which humans are doing. remember this is nearly almost shirk and shirk is a serious sin and put some one in hell forever if he believes on this while hes near death.

So kitten lover its best if you keep away from this friend and dont allow him to influence you any longer.

Astaghfirullah. May Allah protect us all from committing this act.
Reply

qadir al jilani
04-20-2010, 03:28 AM
I do not like repeating myself but you really make it hard for me to reply and scrutiny your respond. The reason for this is as stated previous about scattering same and similar points all over rather then having a more formatted reply.

Now can u show me in arabic or english where exactly does in that ayah it says they ARE HAZIR NAZIR , as i explained earlier that Hazir nazir Means PRESNET and Watching. Or where does in this ayah we are informed that he gets to know some of the unseen by Alah aftre He sala lahu alihi wa sallam departed us and is in his life of barzakh
Read my previous post and my belief will become very apparent, which is far from saying the Prophet is hadir and nazir.

Also you raised the point that the Prophet being alive does not insinuate that he receives some knowledge of the unseen. You went to the extent that you claimed I was assigning meanings which were not befitting. Where did I ever hint at this? Rather I provided proof regarding the fact that they are alive and then further said they receive knowledge of the unseen whiles in their Grave. If you came to a misleading notion then this is upon your head and not mines.


Again brother , the topic of this thread was hazir nazir , which some people here dodged and changed it to knowledge of unseen , which can be partially proved, while hazir nazir cannot ever be proved in any way whatsoever. so result , lets prove that the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam did get some knowledge of unseen inhis life so this proves he is still getting knowledge of unseen after he has passed away?? ,but the texts only prove he is alive and geting our salam and sustinance and belssings from his lord. This is where the evidece stops but u made taweel of it to claim that if he can get sustinance he can ALSO get knwoledge of unseen , which u ASSUMED without any exclusive evidence. So u are saying He sala lahu alihi wa sallam CAN , and COULD N MIGHT , i say this is not how deen is , matters of aqeedah do not revolve aroound could and should and might rather we need affirmed and exclusive rexts from quran n sunnah.
The thread was hazir and nazir but I did not dodge anything rather I shed light upon the fact the Prophet receives knowledge of the unseen. The motive behind this decision was many people mix the two up and don’t differentiate. Now to address the second point which you made was that I assume without any evidence and do not stop where the Quran stops. This is a very big accusation on another person so please be carful when attributing such words to a person especially when done unrightfully.

It’s very amazing and clear that you either skim through my reply or you simply don’t bother reading my respond as you come to many fallacies.

If you actually spent your time in reading the proofs I quoted you would have came across the quote below:

“My life is a great good for you, you will relate about me and it will be related to you, and my death is a great good for you, your actions will be exhibited to me………”


The narration explicitly states that after the Prophets death our actions will be exhibited to him. This is enough to prove my point and refute your attempt of responding back. Looks like you need to implement your own “Jewels of Wisdom” in relation to stopping where the religious text stop. The above narration is enough to negate the point you tried establishing about the Prophet not receiving some knowledge of the unseen in his blessed grave.


This is how the ayah was understood by the Prophet and sahaba
Brother you do not even understand points raised by me accurately and you are conveying to me how the Prophet and the companions understood the texts? At least make it believable.

And as far as brevlis go , will u agree that their heads in our time are
sheikh ul islam tahir ul qadri and ilyas qadri the ameer of ahle sunnet.right?
Please don’t attribute such a honorable title like “Sheikh Ul Islam” to the likes of Tahir ul qadri. Actually the Brelvis heads warn against Tahir ul Qadri and have even issued books against him concerning his misguidance. Sheikh Ilyas Qadri is a real follower of Imam Raza Khan Brelvis (May Allah raise his rank). Just to clarify I don’t follow none of the aforementioned incase one thinks I am being biased towards certain individuals.

Seeking forgiveness , help , assisatance , problem solving, jannah , is not from the Prophet sala lahu alihi wa sallam , raher its from ALLAH Alone , we canot ask anyone besides him.

except for what is under the asbaab , like i just asked my mom for lunch and my uncle for some money , but when they are not here with me, like if my mom passes away u will never see me at her grave asking her for breakfast , and as far as problem like finaicail or anyother diffciculties go , yes i can ask the creation that are around me and have the ability to help me like i just asked my uncle for some money , but if he was to die as a martyr , and i know he is alive with his lord getting his sustinance and not dead i still wont go to his grave and ask him for a couple of thousand dirhams.
You once again expose your ill understanding of the word worship as simply asking through someone is far from Shrik. The example you gave is extremely weak and does not negate the issue which you are trying to refute. If you want to we can elaborate upon this issue on another thread. The reason for this is because I want to stick to the subject matter on this thread which seems rational.


It does not , It was the taweel u did to prove something that the ayah does not prove, this was my point , this is always the way of the people of innovation , they take one ayah that proves one thing and then do taweel of it and make it prove something that has notthing to do with it , nor does it in any way means what they make it mean. So outwardly they bring u quran and hadeeth but what their chests conceal is bigger , وما يخفى صدورهم اكبر
Alhamdulillah you are 100% right as this is the methodology of the people of misguidance.

This was the way of a man in the past called Ibn Taymiyah. This man declared Abdullah the son of Umar Ibn Al Khattab who was praised by the Prophet in a hadith from the route of Hafsa (the daughter of Umar Ibn Al Khattab) about her brother Umar that the Prophet said about him “Abdullah the son of Umar is a righteous man” as a kafir. The basis for the accusation was that Ibn Taymiyah said "The actions he done of praying in the places where the prophet prayed in between Makka and Madina" Abdullah was doing this in order of seeking blessing from the traces of the Prophet, Regarding the action done by this man "It is a reason to have associated a partner to Allah". (Iqtida al Sirat al Mustaqeem).

He also said the lady Fatimah had certain attributes of a hypocrite and made other crazy accusation against great companions.
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