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JamesBond007
07-07-2010, 05:49 AM
Salaam Brothers and Sisters!

So I am new to these forums, and I consider myself to be a pretty good Muslim in most cases (but who is to judge that but Allah), but I have found myself falling into a habit that is regarded as haram in our religion.

Of course, this habit I am talking about is Marijuana. I have read many reasons as to why marijuana is haram in Islam, but I feel as if people are misguided on the drug. I am not encouraging the drug, but instead I am trying to gain knowledge, and persuasion in a way to get me out of this habit.

Firstly, I don't smoke much, probably once every weekend, sometimes only 2 times a month. I never saw the harm in smoking Marijuana and I still do not, but I don't want to be committing a sin, I do believe in Allah and the Quran.

Now this is what I don't understand, in the Quran it says that we are not allowed to consume anything that intoxicates our mind. Alcohol is a clear indicator of intoxicating the mind, but Marijuana has a completely different effect. I feel more creative, more open, accepting of life, etc. Before I started smoking, I wasn't really close to Allah, but as I started smoking more and more I felt His presence around me and I noticed myself becoming a better person overall.

I started to listen to my mom, started praying 4-5 times a day opposed to 0, I stopped being lazy and made more of my life. I started researching Islam and have bettered myself to what the Quran says. I'll be honest, I had a gf before I started smoking, once I started smoking I broke it off with her, I didn't want the sin of any act before marriage on my conscious or to be showed on the Day of Judgement.

Now, I hear everyone saying that Marijuana is haram... why? It's made my life (obviously it was the will of Allah to improve my life) so much better! I feel so much better about myself, and even my family says that I have become a better person. (They have no idea I smoke)

Why is it that this drug, that seems to enhance my mind and life, get such a bad rep in our religion? It doesn't make sense!!!
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Woodrow
07-07-2010, 06:06 AM
:sl:

Imagine this scenario:

You come home unexpectedly and discover your mother has been secretly smoking marijuana every other Wednesday,

Would your attitude about her be changed?

Now stop and ponder over the thought that Allaah(swt) knows every puff you ever smoked and he knows even the unknowteced effects it has on you.
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JamesBond007
07-07-2010, 06:12 AM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
:sl:

Imagine this scenario:

You come home unexpectedly and discover your mother has been secretly smoking marijuana every other Wednesday,

Would your attitude about her be changed?

Now stop and ponder over the thought that Allaah(swt) knows every puff you ever smoked and he knows even the unknowteced effects it has on you.
Well, to be completely honest, sometimes I feel as if my mom should smoke. She is always complaining about how crappy her life has been, and how she's gone through so much pain. I feel as if she smoked, she would learn to accept that life is in fact a blessing and she should learn to appreciate it instead of complaining how bad it was.

The second part you say scares me to an extent, but I have never had an impure though whilst smoking, most of my thoughts have opened my mind to the thought of Allah, also researching science and relating it to religion. My mind was blown.
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Ramadhan
07-07-2010, 07:37 AM
Why don't you just stop smoking and see if what effects does quit smoking weed have on you?

Don't you get suspicious that you can only improve your life just because you are smoking?

I know that many people have chemical imbalances which are "balanced" by medications (that's why drugs such as prozac and other beta blockers are very popular because they make people feel good), so do you think that smoking weed have similar effects on you?

As Allah SWT says in the Qur'an that even in intoxicants there are benefits but their negative side effects (which we are not fully aware of, or directly observable) outweighs their beneficial properties, so that's why all intoxicants (alcohol, drugs) are made haraam.

Another thing, you may feel your life has improved when you started smoking weed, but what about the long term impacts?
and I am not talking about physical health, but far more importantly, your psychological and emotional health. Sure, it does look like it has no negative effects NOW, but you never know what kind of subtle changes it is already making on your judgements already.
Trust me, I am drawing from my own personal experiences.

I think these are the kinds of issues that you need to seriously consider.
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Rabi Mansur
07-07-2010, 07:54 AM
:sl:

Now this is what I don't understand, in the Quran it says that we are not allowed to consume anything that intoxicates our mind. Alcohol is a clear indicator of intoxicating the mind, but Marijuana has a completely different effect.
I have a hard time believing this my friend. Everyone I have known who smokes marijuana seems to become less motivated to work and in fact a bit lazy. When I was in college, I tried it and did not like the effect it had on my mind. I felt less "sharp" at times so I quit it and didn't miss it at all. I understand that at times it causes you to think differently, and perhaps helps somewhat creatively, but there is no doubt that it dulls your senses overall. Would you feel comfortable driving your car knowing that others on the road had been smoking marijuana? Would you want someone working for you who had a habit of smoking it? Of course not. What about if you left your kids with a babysitter and you found out that they smoked marijuana?
Just let it go. Go without it for a month and see if you are blessed. I predict you will realize it was a mistake to use it.

:wa:
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syed_z
07-07-2010, 12:13 PM
Well the thing that gives you peace is NOT drugs... rather Peace comes when you Remember Allah (Swt) much...


(13:28) Verily in the Zikr (Remembrance) of Allah do hearts find rest.



Just like Brother in Islam Rabi said.. go without it for a month and see yourself.... you wont be able to pray without it, you wont be able to work without, you wont be able to stay at peace without it, it would be very difficult for you to live without it...... so you are not Independent, rather you are dependent on this World, and to work your way towards God you need to be independent of ALL things besides Him (swt)...


(5:100) Say "there is no comparison between the bad things and the good things, even though very many of the bad things may please you Greatly! Be Conscious of God you are endowed with insight, so you might attain a happy state."


Marijuana is a Drug, and even though it pleases you alot it is very very bad for you. Being Conscious of God is the Best Tool to use to be close to God. The drugs and intoxicants, hinders your ability to make decision and affects your ability to fully use your mind and intellect. There fore resulting in affecting your Consciousness of Allah (swt).... drugs DO give you a relax feel for sometimes BUT they hinder your though process and that is why we come across signs like "Dont Drink and Drive" ... or ... "Dont Smoke and drive"... etc...

The One who created you, knows you better and tells you that to attain to a happy state, the best tool is God Consciousness..... and the Zikr (rememberance) also helps keep you Conscious of your Lord... which in turn keeps you at peace within yourself...


Compare yourself with the One who is Responsible in regards to family and praying but does not smoke Marijuana .... now imagine what will be if you don't get Marijuana.... he would still be fine and doing all that he was doing before... but you would be paranoid and will NOT be able to continue...
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Neelofar
07-07-2010, 12:31 PM
Salaamz :D

Firstly, I just want to say thank you for being open and honest in your post, that was really brave of you. Secondly, I think the feeling of euphoria that you get after smoking maybe just all in your head or perpetuated by shaytaan himself and is a by-product of smoking. Try cutting dwn on smoking and then stopping altogether, inshallah you'll find that you can still experience that feeling of happiness purely from the rembrance of Allah; without the need for taking such drugs.. P.s I'm sorry but I don't really have any solid knowledge on why smoking nd such should be allowed Islam..sorry!
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ardianto
07-07-2010, 04:08 PM
Originally Posted by JamesBond007

Firstly, I don't smoke much, probably once every weekend, sometimes only 2 times a month. I never saw the harm in smoking Marijuana and I still do not, but I don't want to be committing a sin, I do believe in Allah and the Quran.

Now this is what I don't understand, in the Quran it says that we are not allowed to consume anything that intoxicates our mind. Alcohol is a clear indicator of intoxicating the mind, but Marijuana has a completely different effect. I feel more creative, more open, accepting of life, etc. Before I started smoking, I wasn't really close to Allah, but as I started smoking more and more I felt His presence around me and I noticed myself becoming a better person overall.
:sl:

Effect of marijuana is different than effect of alcohol, also different than effect of drugs.

I understand if you feel marijuana makes you feel better. That is effect of marijuana. But actually this is because you are a beginner in smoking marijuana. You don't know yet what would happen in your future if you still smoke it.

Brother, may I know what's your cause to smoke marijuana ?. Follow a life style ?, run from problem ?, just want to have a new experience ?, or another cause ?.
And how can you get marijuana ?. Different than cigarette, you need an access to buy marijuana, I know it. Or you get it from your friend ?.

Don't be hesitate to tell me, I will not judge you. I understand marijuana smokers because I was one of them.

:)
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JamesBond007
07-07-2010, 10:15 PM
So I just wrote a HUGE reply that took me 2 hours, and when I submitted it, my account was logged off :raging:!!!!!!

All in all, I was defending Marijuana, but I would like to REALLY know why it is haram. Can someone give me a clear cut answer as to why?

I have read the harms and benefits on various websites, but they all seem to be overtly exaggerated.

Guys, I do like the drug, last time I smoked was the week of May 20, I haven't had the time since. I only smoke weekends, never weekdays. I don't feel any different, but I do feel as if I'm a better person overall. I do miss smoking, but I do not need it.

I started after taking a class in college, my professor was an open smoker, and would come to class high and discuss life with us, it really blew my mind away.

I just don't see how it intoxicates the mind, I don't see how it harms me. No one has died from the drug. I would love to know the reasons.

Weren't Muslims one of the leading Hash (100% THC) contributors in the world at one point?
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Lynx
07-08-2010, 12:09 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Substance_intoxication

I think it's most reasonable to call the state of being high as intoxicated. Whether you feel more creative or not or whether you feel you have mind blowing conversations when you're high does not change the fact that you're intoxicated. Now the harms and benefits of weed are always debatable. Certainly there are people who abuse Weed and it harms their life (I know a few people like that) and there are other people who smoke it occasionally just to chill out. I think the best answer, and this goes for all controversial rules in religion is that, if you really love God and your religion (whatever it may be) then you ought to sacrifice something you enjoy. Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, mohammed was asked to sacrifice his position in society, jesus was crucified (or not according to Islam). My point is, you shouldn't look for a reason for every rule that is given to you by God; somethings you ought to do simply for the sake of God and when it's something so simple as not smoking weed then even more reason to abandon it.

Now don't think I am saying just follow without questioning your beliefs; what I am saying is that there's something extraordinary when a human can give up a simple pleasure of life just for the sake of God and perhaps you should think about the forbidding of marijuana from that perspective rather than from a consequentalist (judging the rightness or wrongness of an action by consequences that entail from the action) perspective.
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جوري
07-08-2010, 12:10 AM
(2:195) and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.

marijuana has twenty times the carcinogens in cigarettes, plus can contribute greatly to memory loss perhaps that is why you can't retain simple information or engage in lucid dialogue?.. if you continue to get away with doing an illegal drug then perhaps you should sign up for a case study where we see long term sequela if you believe there isn't enough evidence of its harm..

I am curious to which university and class you are a part of? if you feel strongly that this is normal then I am sure you wouldn't mind sharing such info with us?-- I don't suspect most people enjoy being a part of a class where the professor rolls in stoned.. most people who enroll in college probably care about their education and how they spend their money!

all the best
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BlackMamba
07-08-2010, 04:02 AM
2:219 THEY WILL ASK thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend [in God's cause]. Say: "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect2:219

Quran has all the answers.
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noorseeker
07-08-2010, 06:26 AM
it will lead to pyschosis, ive seen it many a time
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zakirs
07-08-2010, 07:36 AM
Note I am not a scholar and neither am I am an ideal person but here my advice, Think of it as this : You need marijuana to appreciate the life God has given you.So , according to you when you are conscious you don't like the life which you have? Ponder about this.
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syed_z
07-08-2010, 08:38 AM
Weren't Muslims one of the leading Hash (100% THC) contributors in the world at one point?

the difference between Modern Western Secular Civilization of today and Islamic Civilization of the past is that, our contribution towards are Sciences was high and no doubt the world did benefit from that knowledge to progress further..... HOWEVER Muslims during those times were guided by Divine Revelation in whatever discoveries they made, that guidance of Divine Revelations made good use and beneficial use of those discoveries rather than misuse them....


and if you speak of a Group called Hashashins .... that was a group of Outlaws in the Muslim World and a minority following Misguided teachings... they were not following Islam...
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JamesBond007
07-08-2010, 04:56 PM
Originally Posted by Lynx

I think it's most reasonable to call the state of being high as intoxicated. Whether you feel more creative or not or whether you feel you have mind blowing conversations when you're high does not change the fact that you're intoxicated. Now the harms and benefits of weed are always debatable. Certainly there are people who abuse Weed and it harms their life (I know a few people like that) and there are other people who smoke it occasionally just to chill out. I think the best answer, and this goes for all controversial rules in religion is that, if you really love God and your religion (whatever it may be) then you ought to sacrifice something you enjoy. Abraham was asked to sacrifice his son, mohammed was asked to sacrifice his position in society, jesus was crucified (or not according to Islam). My point is, you shouldn't look for a reason for every rule that is given to you by God; somethings you ought to do simply for the sake of God and when it's something so simple as not smoking weed then even more reason to abandon it.

Now don't think I am saying just follow without questioning your beliefs; what I am saying is that there's something extraordinary when a human can give up a simple pleasure of life just for the sake of God and perhaps you should think about the forbidding of marijuana from that perspective rather than from a consequentalist (judging the rightness or wrongness of an action by consequences that entail from the action) perspective.
Just to get your opinion, why is it safe to call the state of being high an intoxication?

I do like your reasoning though, but that still doesn't answer my question as WHY it is haram. I would give up anything for Allah, especially Marijuana, but I also like having a clear understanding on why I am giving it up. No one has really provided such a reason.

Originally Posted by τhε ṿαlε'ṡ lïlÿ
(2:195) and make not your own hands contribute to (your) destruction; but do good; for Allah loveth those who do good.

marijuana has twenty times the carcinogens in cigarettes, plus can contribute greatly to memory loss perhaps that is why you can't retain simple information or engage in lucid dialogue?.. if you continue to get away with doing an illegal drug then perhaps you should sign up for a case study where we see long term sequela if you believe there isn't enough evidence of its harm..

I am curious to which university and class you are a part of? if you feel strongly that this is normal then I am sure you wouldn't mind sharing such info with us?-- I don't suspect most people enjoy being a part of a class where the professor rolls in stoned.. most people who enroll in college probably care about their education and how they spend their money!

all the best
Attacking someone's intellect is looked down upon on most forums...

Marijuana is an illegal drug, there are over 11 million users in America alone. It will, in time, be legalized in the USA as it has been in countries around the world. I find the fact of it being illegal as retarded, to be honest. It is less harmful than cigarettes, cigars, and hookah, yet all three of those are legal and widely used by Muslims.

I attend Penn State University, I am a Biology major with a Sociology minor and Alhamdulillah Allah has blessed me with good grades.

Originally Posted by Shakoor15
2:219 THEY WILL ASK thee about intoxicants and games of chance. Say: "In both there is great evil as well as some benefit for man; but the evil which they cause is greater than the benefit which they bring." And they will ask thee as to what they should spend [in God's cause]. Say: "Whatever you can spare." In this way God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might reflect2:219

Quran has all the answers.
Quran does have all the answers and it is a beautiful book! But this can be interpreted and wrongly interpreted for a number of things.

Alcohol is a clear interpretation.

Originally Posted by nightstar
it will lead to pyschosis, ive seen it many a time
lol...
Originally Posted by zakirs
Note I am not a scholar and neither am I am an ideal person but here my advice, Think of it as this : You need marijuana to appreciate the life God has given you.So , according to you when you are conscious you don't like the life which you have? Ponder about this.
You don't need to be a scholar to base an opinon! All is welcome!

I love my life consciously or high, I do love my life more under the influence, but that is the effect that the drug brings. But, I am fully conscious when I am high...

Originally Posted by syed_z
the difference between Modern Western Secular Civilization of today and Islamic Civilization of the past is that, our contribution towards are Sciences was high and no doubt the world did benefit from that knowledge to progress further..... HOWEVER Muslims during those times were guided by Divine Revelation in whatever discoveries they made, that guidance of Divine Revelations made good use and beneficial use of those discoveries rather than misuse them....


and if you speak of a Group called Hashashins .... that was a group of Outlaws in the Muslim World and a minority following Misguided teachings... they were not following Islam...
Interesting topic, would you mind discussing this in further detail? It is amazing how Muslims have a history themselves and we fail to read into it.


Lastly, as I stated earlier, cigarettes, cigars, HOOKAH, and other tobacco products are so widely used by Muslims, even some huge scholars. They ALL give a person a buzz and are much more dangerous to a person than marijuana is. Why are these not grilled on in Islam like Marijuana is?
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syed_z
07-08-2010, 05:03 PM
Interesting topic, would you mind discussing this in further detail? It is amazing how Muslims have a history themselves and we fail to read into it.


Lastly, as I stated earlier, cigarettes, cigars, HOOKAH, and other tobacco products are so widely used by Muslims, even some huge scholars. They ALL give a person a buzz and are much more dangerous to a person than marijuana is. Why are these not grilled on in Islam like Marijuana is?

Yes Muslims do have good and bad , and guided and misguided people among them... and have had them in the past... which ever Scholar permits of Smoking being ok, is a pseudo Scholar... and if you have come across them, please provide me Proof from Quran and Sunnah (teachings of prophet)... which they gave you to give legal opinion about Smoking being 'Halaal (legal)'.... majority of Scholars have given a ruling against It...

About ciggarettes being used in Muslim World, is correct, however in Islam it is Illegal... so if Muslim government don't do anything about it... thats their fault and they will be answerable to Allah (swt)...
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جوري
07-08-2010, 05:24 PM
Originally Posted by JamesBond007

Attacking someone's intellect is looked down upon on most forums...
doing and promoting drugs is looked down upon not merely on forums but in the real world as well!
Marijuana is an illegal drug, there are over 11 million users in America alone. It will, in time, be legalized in the USA as it has been in countries around the world. I find the fact of it being illegal as retarded, to be honest. It is less harmful than cigarettes, cigars, and hookah, yet all three of those are legal and widely used by Muslims.
It is an illegal drug, and I doubt that the legality will go beyond medical therapeutics for cancer patients to take some of the edge of, which is still very doubtful given other more potent treatment modalities! It isn't less harmful than cigarettes of hookahs!-- and the same general Islamic principles apply here if we are speaking 'Islamically' doing your body harm isn't condoned nor encouraged in Islam!
I attend Penn State University, I am a Biology major with a Sociology minor and Alhamdulillah Allah has blessed me with good grades.
very good, please give us the name of your professor that comes into class stoned if you don't mind?

all the best
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Lynx
07-08-2010, 06:14 PM

Just to get your opinion, why is it safe to call the state of being high an intoxication?
Well I provided a link to explain why marijuana high is considered intoxication. It alters the mind in such a way that it is intoxicated. You seem to liken intoxication with being drunk but the definition of intoxication is having an altered mind state by injecting or consuming a chemical. I can't think of any other word to describe getting high besides intoxication & I don't think anyone can seriously say they getting high is different from intoxication.

I do like your reasoning though, but that still doesn't answer my question as WHY it is haram. I would give up anything for Allah, especially Marijuana, but I also like having a clear understanding on why I am giving it up. No one has really provided such a reason.
Not everything in the Quran that is forbidden has a reason why it's forbidden because the ethical system of the Quran does not work like that. You are a servant of God and you have a duty to obey God; whether or not you find harms in a particular forbidden action is not completely relevant. The problem is you are confusing 'haram' with 'harmful' which are not synonymous. Somethings are haram and you should follow it for the sake of God. And of course, there are negative consequences to smoking weed but my point is even if there aren't any, the rule is still that weed is haram.
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BlackMamba
07-09-2010, 08:02 AM
Quran does have all the answers and it is a beautiful book! But this can be interpreted and wrongly interpreted for a number of things.

Alcohol is a clear interpretation.
Okay a couple of things here.

1) the word used in the Quran to describe intoxicants is khamr. Here are quotes from the prophet of Allah (saw) and umar ibn al khattab (ra)

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) said: " Every intoxicant is khamr, and every khamr is haram."
Umar, the second Khalifah of the Prophet, declared from the pulpit of the Prophet: "Khamr is that which befogs the mind."

2) weed does befog the mind.
Studies of marijuana's mental effects show that the drug can impair or reduce short-term memory, alter sense of time, and reduce ability to do things which require concentration, swift reactions, and coordination, such as driving a car or operating machinery.

I understand you like weed and think it makes you better but why don't you try to not use it and see if you become a bad person. I seriously doubt that leaving marijuana will turn you into a bad human being.

And you asked why weed is haram. The answer is "because Allah says so".
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Woodrow
07-10-2010, 03:51 PM
Originally Posted by nightstar
it will lead to pyschosis, ive seen it many a time

True, it is the primary if not the only cause of chemically induced schizophrenia. Which is permanent and essentially not treatable. I fail to understand why a reasonably sane person would desire insanity and the loss of free will that accompanies it.
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samzee
07-15-2010, 10:44 PM
I think it is physically harmful , mentally destabilizing and it drags u away from urself to the point that u r not urself. It is good that u have turned towards allah and have become more creative. why don't u try to leave this habit and let allah guide u . and practice creativity by taking part in more creative activities. Why give control to an entity when u can be in charge of ur life with allah's blessings.
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14yearold
05-22-2011, 06:51 PM
Originally Posted by JamesBond007
Salaam Brothers and Sisters!

So I am new to these forums, and I consider myself to be a pretty good Muslim in most cases (but who is to judge that but Allah), but I have found myself falling into a habit that is regarded as haram in our religion.

Of course, this habit I am talking about is Marijuana. I have read many reasons as to why marijuana is haram in Islam, but I feel as if people are misguided on the drug. I am not encouraging the drug, but instead I am trying to gain knowledge, and persuasion in a way to get me out of this habit.

Firstly, I don't smoke much, probably once every weekend, sometimes only 2 times a month. I never saw the harm in smoking Marijuana and I still do not, but I don't want to be committing a sin, I do believe in Allah and the Quran.

Now this is what I don't understand, in the Quran it says that we are not allowed to consume anything that intoxicates our mind. Alcohol is a clear indicator of intoxicating the mind, but Marijuana has a completely different effect. I feel more creative, more open, accepting of life, etc. Before I started smoking, I wasn't really close to Allah, but as I started smoking more and more I felt His presence around me and I noticed myself becoming a better person overall.

I started to listen to my mom, started praying 4-5 times a day opposed to 0, I stopped being lazy and made more of my life. I started researching Islam and have bettered myself to what the Quran says. I'll be honest, I had a gf before I started smoking, once I started smoking I broke it off with her, I didn't want the sin of any act before marriage on my conscious or to be showed on the Day of Judgement.

Now, I hear everyone saying that Marijuana is haram... why? It's made my life (obviously it was the will of Allah to improve my life) so much better! I feel so much better about myself, and even my family says that I have become a better person. (They have no idea I smoke)

Why is it that this drug, that seems to enhance my mind and life, get such a bad rep in our religion? It doesn't make sense!!!
Im telling you how it is right now: If Islam wasnt the Truth/The message we as humans were naturally inclined to rebel/fight for, then it would've been/is weed.
Weed is the Center of Spirituality As Is Islam in Religion. Being a teenage Muslim I was obviously exposed to marijuana but I never did it and in-fact stopped others from smoking Marijuana saying things like its a gateway drug or it causes you to get dependant on it haha, the usual. So for the most time I was around it allot but Never once did I bother trying cuz I didnt know who to believe. The adults who don't remember how to pray or the "ignorant" kids.

Do not make the mistake I made. I had to fight and Im still fighting for my right to utilize marijuana. Marijuana doesn't kill at all, in fact it cures. Name me a disease and Ill name you a strain that cures ;) yes CURES.

Would you ask a Christian Priest about the Laws pertaining to Jihad? Of course Not.

If you have any mary jane questions ask up ; D.

P.S
I am not 14 anymore, i made this acount when I left out into the world to discover the truth and I found Islam. I was 14 then ^_^
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14yearold
05-22-2011, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by Woodrow
True, it is the primary if not the only cause of chemically induced schizophrenia. Which is permanent and essentially not treatable. I fail to understand why a reasonably sane person would desire insanity and the loss of free will that accompanies it.
A Slandering Muslim. Haha Tsk tsk just goes to show the world we live in today. I dont care whether youre slandering intentionally or unentionally but whhichever one it is, you have no right to do so.

schizophrenia? you mean the BBC "Documentary" on weed where they had people talk about how Weed gave them shizophrenia? Those people's parents/grandparents had the disease before them, whether they smoked or not, getting the disease was innevitable. It was genetics, not from the actual Plant itself.

Secondly, when you get high you dont hallucinate let alone go schizo. If thats what weed does to people then half of the population should be dead/crazy now.

Before you try propogating false information on Weed how about you go ask your local weed dispensary on a strain for schizo in case you or anyone you know who's smoking weed has gone Insane. And I know for a fact at least one member in your family smokes weed whether you know it or not.
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Dagless
05-22-2011, 08:39 PM
Originally Posted by 14yearold
schizophrenia? you mean the BBC "Documentary" on weed where they had people talk about how Weed gave them shizophrenia? Those people's parents/grandparents had the disease before them, whether they smoked or not, getting the disease was innevitable. It was genetics, not from the actual Plant itself.
I don't think that has ever been proven. Even if we say it is genetics and some people are predisposed to certain mental illnesses then you can say weed triggered those illnesses. Since you don't know your genetic make-up why bother risking it?

Originally Posted by 14yearold
Before you try propogating false information on Weed how about you go ask your local weed dispensary on a strain for schizo in case you or anyone you know who's smoking weed has gone Insane. And I know for a fact at least one member in your family smokes weed whether you know it or not.
They have done tests where completely normal people have been given high amounts of thc. Those people started exhibiting symptoms of psychosis (until it wore off). The strains you smoke now are grown with very high thc content. You won't find stuff like that naturally, it is mostly purpose grown.

The bottom line is that it's haraam. Whether you want to follow that information is up to you. At the end of the day anyone can justify anything to themselves if they want to bad enough.
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Alpha Dude
05-22-2011, 09:48 PM
14yearold, it seems one side-effect of weed is that it makes you rude and immature.

Originally Posted by 14yearold
A Slandering Muslim. Haha Tsk tsk just goes to show the world we live in today. I dont care whether youre slandering intentionally or unentionally but whhichever one it is, you have no right to do so.
I suggest you look up what slandering means.

Secondly, when you get high you dont hallucinate let alone go schizo. If thats what weed does to people then half of the population should be dead/crazy now.
What weed can potentially do is give a person the symptoms of schizophrenia, which can go away once the drug wears off. However, if a person is a chronic user, obviously the symptoms are going to stay longer and fester.

Before you try propogating false information on Weed how about you go ask your local weed dispensary on a strain for schizo in case you or anyone you know who's smoking weed has gone Insane. And I know for a fact at least one member in your family smokes weed whether you know it or not.
You could never know this. It seems you're the one who's slandering. Tsk tsk. Just goes to show the world we live in today. I don't care whether you're slandering intentionally or unintentionally but whichever one it is, you have no right to do so(!).

Go do your homework.
Reply

al yunan
05-22-2011, 10:46 PM
Salam to all,

There is one undeniable symptom of weed and that is the smoker thinks he is Plato combined with Shakespeare but in reality he is more like Cheech and Chong

One thing is for sure and that is those two guys the O.P writer and the 14yearold have convinced themselves, who knows maybe the time has come for us to witness the birth of the Rasta Muslims Jamah and the joint al roach Tariqat.

The return of the lost Sufi order of the "assassioun" (for those not familiar the word assassin comes from the word Hashish and the secret order of drug fed hired killers bearing that name)

To those who do not travel much and perhaps think I'm attempting to be comical, these two are not isolated cases only the tip of the iceberg.
Their numbers are growing by the thousands and not because the fad is growing but rather people are not so shy to reveal themselves anymore.

May Allah S.W.T protects us all from the everspreading Fitnah.
Masalam
Reply

Ramadhan
05-23-2011, 02:08 AM
Originally Posted by Lowlife
14yearold, it seems one side-effect of weed is that it makes you rude and immature.
I was going to say this.

It seems the effects of weed-smoking has gone to his brain.

No drug user, especially the addicted ones, would ever admit that what they do is wrong and they would always try to find reasons why their habit is superior or at least acceptable. Intoxicants remove our ability to tell what is right and what is wrong and push us further away from our fitrah (pure natural state). Hence Allah in the Qur'an command us to stay away from all intoxicants. They do indeed contain some benefits, but the negative impacts far far outweigh those benefits.

Originally Posted by 14yearold
Being a teenage Muslim I was obviously exposed to marijuana
Originally Posted by 14yearold
If thats what weed does to people then half of the population should be dead/crazy now.
With statements like these, obviously the THC has fried parts of your brains.
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ardianto
05-23-2011, 02:30 AM
Originally Posted by 14yearold
Weed is the Center of Spirituality As Is Islam in Religion.
What spirituality ?. Weed only makes you laugh when you see something that actually not funny, then you enjoy your blank mind.

Do not make the mistake I made. I had to fight and Im still fighting for my right to utilize marijuana. Marijuana doesn't kill at all, in fact it cures. Name me a disease and Ill name you a strain that cures ;) yes CURES.
It doesn't kill your body but kill your mind.

Cures diseases ?. It's better if try to find a better argument. There is no doctor that suggest the patient to smoke weed.

Originally Posted by 14yearold
And I know for a fact at least one member in your family smokes weed whether you know it or not.
Another lie. People like always blow up the number of weed user, tell other people that 40-50-80% of youth are weed/drug user. In fact, only in small percentage.


Maybe you can lie to other people but you cannot lie to an ex-weed smoker like me.
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14yearold
05-23-2011, 02:33 AM
Originally Posted by Dagless
I don't think that has ever been proven. Even if we say it is genetics and some people are predisposed to certain mental illnesses then you can say weed triggered those illnesses. Since you don't know your genetic make-up why bother risking it?



They have done tests where completely normal people have been given high amounts of thc. Those people started exhibiting symptoms of psychosis (until it wore off). The strains you smoke now are grown with very high thc content. You won't find stuff like that naturally, it is mostly purpose grown.

The bottom line is that it's haraam. Whether you want to follow that information is up to you. At the end of the day anyone can justify anything to themselves if they want to bad enough.
Okay Haram or not, it has no mental effects at all. You've never smoken weed so you'e never known. Theres allota false propogated information and very biased and even falsified "research" or claims against marijuana floating out there similliarily as there is with the media and Islam. So if you dont know what youre talking about dont make false accusations.
Reply

Ramadhan
05-23-2011, 03:32 AM
Originally Posted by 14yearold
it has no mental effects at all.
This is a classic sentence from a drug user who has suffered from delusional effects of heavy drug use.

Read these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long-te...ts_of_cannabis
A 2007 study of studies published in the Lancet concluded that cannabis users are 40% more likely to be sufferers of a psychotic illness than non-users.[33] The BEACH[34] study (Bettering the Evaluation and Care of Health) conducted by the Australian General Practice Statistics and Classification Centre, based at the University of Sydney, found that "cannabis smokers are more likely to suffer depression, anxiety and psychosis". The report continues that of the number of patients who mentioned cannabis use to their GP, 48% had a psychological problem, including 19% with depression, 9% with psychosis and 6% had anxiety.[35] However, it was also noted that few cannabis users actually tell their doctors that they use it, which could potentially bias the results of the study. Much of the evidence for a short-lived cannabis psychosis is largely based on case reports where heavy cannabis use has preceded the onset of a psychotic episode, which then remits on abstinence.[36] Depictions of a toxic or acute cannabis psychosis have been reported in a number of countries such as New Zealand,[37] South Africa,[38] Sweden[39] and the UK.[40]

I can give you tons of verifiable published research/studies from reputable institutions about the mental effect of cannabis use.

And this:
A large, unselected population-based study, published in British Journal of Psychiatry (2008), examined cannabis use and prodromal symptoms of psychosis at age 15–16 years and concluded that cannabis use was associated with prodromal symptoms of psychosis in adolescence.[41]
That is your age group, and if I were you, I would lay off weed smoking right now and go to a psychiatrist for check up and treatment.

Originally Posted by 14yearold
You've never smoken weed so you'e never known.
This is another classic excuse from an active drug user. How would you know that some people have not smoke weed? Just because some people do not/refuse to reveal their past sins do not mean they don't know first hand what you are claiming to know/experience. Most people here are not 14 or 16 yo, and have life experiences far beyond what you are just starting.

Originally Posted by 14yearold
So if you dont know what youre talking about dont make false accusations.
And you know what you are talking about just because you're a 16 yo weed-smoking kid living in guelph, ontario?
Reply

Woodrow
05-23-2011, 03:54 AM
Originally Posted by 14yearold
A Slandering Muslim. Haha Tsk tsk just goes to show the world we live in today. I dont care whether youre slandering intentionally or unentionally but whhichever one it is, you have no right to do so.

schizophrenia? you mean the BBC "Documentary" on weed where they had people talk about how Weed gave them shizophrenia? Those people's parents/grandparents had the disease before them, whether they smoked or not, getting the disease was innevitable. It was genetics, not from the actual Plant itself.

Secondly, when you get high you dont hallucinate let alone go schizo. If thats what weed does to people then half of the population should be dead/crazy now.

Before you try propogating false information on Weed how about you go ask your local weed dispensary on a strain for schizo in case you or anyone you know who's smoking weed has gone Insane. And I know for a fact at least one member in your family smokes weed whether you know it or not.

Uh, I'm a retired Psychologist. I am speaking of first hand experience of clients I had. My field of expertise was in physiological psychology and I have often found signs of some cortical damage done in the brains of Marijuana smokers. In a psych hospital I worked at a very large percentage of the teenage patients were chemical induced schizophrenia and in all the cases Marijuana was the common cause. But that was just one hospital, the results may differ in other hospitals.

I suspect I had many members in my family smoke it. It was still legal when my parents were farming and I know it was a major crop my grandfather raised. although it was raised for the fibers to make rope and other products. Marijuana smokers were generaly called rope smokers and considered imbeciles by most people. It was not a recreational drug back then, it was looked upon as a dumb hobo habit, common among winos and street bums. Was a low cost drug then, they would just steal peoples clotheslines and smoke it.
Reply

boriqee
05-23-2011, 04:14 AM
Originally Posted by JamesBond007
Salaam Brothers and Sisters!

So I am new to these forums, and I consider myself to be a pretty good Muslim in most cases (but who is to judge that but Allah), but I have found myself falling into a habit that is regarded as haram in our religion.

Of course, this habit I am talking about is Marijuana. I have read many reasons as to why marijuana is haram in Islam, but I feel as if people are misguided on the drug. I am not encouraging the drug, but instead I am trying to gain knowledge, and persuasion in a way to get me out of this habit.

Firstly, I don't smoke much, probably once every weekend, sometimes only 2 times a month. I never saw the harm in smoking Marijuana and I still do not, but I don't want to be committing a sin, I do believe in Allah and the Quran.

Now this is what I don't understand, in the Quran it says that we are not allowed to consume anything that intoxicates our mind. Alcohol is a clear indicator of intoxicating the mind, but Marijuana has a completely different effect. I feel more creative, more open, accepting of life, etc. Before I started smoking, I wasn't really close to Allah, but as I started smoking more and more I felt His presence around me and I noticed myself becoming a better person overall.

I started to listen to my mom, started praying 4-5 times a day opposed to 0, I stopped being lazy and made more of my life. I started researching Islam and have bettered myself to what the Quran says. I'll be honest, I had a gf before I started smoking, once I started smoking I broke it off with her, I didn't want the sin of any act before marriage on my conscious or to be showed on the Day of Judgement.

Now, I hear everyone saying that Marijuana is haram... why? It's made my life (obviously it was the will of Allah to improve my life) so much better! I feel so much better about myself, and even my family says that I have become a better person. (They have no idea I smoke)

Why is it that this drug, that seems to enhance my mind and life, get such a bad rep in our religion? It doesn't make sense!!!
Asalamu alaikum warahmatullahi wabarakatu

My dear brother. Allow me to do what I think no one has done for you.

I think you will find the following response at the very least personally beneficial.

As a former dank smokin, gonja havin, weed sellin guy from the streets and a small and insignificant student in Islam, and a simple researcher of topics, I find myself having to dissect this matter in three categories

These categories are
The Islamic View of Intoxicants
The Nature of Marijuana
The Islamic Concept of Waraa


I would in a nutshell consider the first as the basis in understanding drugs in general, and then I would classify the second in terms of how it really doesn't qualify as an intoxicant per se, and how it differs from other drugs, and then the last of the three is the ultimate conceptualization of the view in its spiritual significance and how one can come out with a personally conclusive and accurate view on the topic.

i say all of this because I myself had to properly understand this topic.

1. The Islamic View of Intoxicants

This topic actually needs no thorough elaboration on it as i believe pretty much everyone understand the concept. However just to reiterate the matter, Islam is of the view that all substances that alter the state of the human mind from its natural state and into a higher state of consciousness is forbidden.

What people fail to grasp and actualize tawheed here is that when there is a command, and the world questions us as to why we do or do not do something. The ULTIMATE and primary reply is because "Allah desired it for me" or "Because Allah said so".

Many of the rulings in Islam do not have a "reason" as to why we were ordered or prohibited from something. And this is where one can delve into the subject of rationality and its role. From the Islamic standpoint, our human intellect is subservient to the textual dictates of the lawmaker (ash-Shaar'i). The opposite of this ideology is the secular liberal ideology of modernity where the textual revelations of the Lawmaker are to be analyzed by the rationale and are given a validation or a rejection by the specific individual in question. The former is the essence of Islam because the basic meaning of Islam comes from "istislaam" which means that we submit our stubborn will to the Will of Allah Subhaanahu. The latter ideology is the exact antithesis of Islam because it entails that the Lawmaker makes istislaam to man and thereby making Allah a muslim to our own desires.

At any rate, our view of the subject should be that if Allah said so, then that is enough for us because Allah classified the believers as being those who when they hear a decision from Allah or His Messenger, their response is "We hear and we obey", and for such people, there is no more discussion.

Secondly, from the wisdoms of Islamic law in the affairs of this world, is that there is no such thing as something that is made haraam to be purely evil or of no benefit. No, rather there is benefit to be found in such things. LIKEWISE, the same is said for its opposite. When Islam mandates something, there is nothing that negates that thing to have any negative aspect to it. The essence of the shariah of Islam is that Islam (as it relates to law) did not come to eradicate all evil or to rid the world of any negativeness. The Islamic belief and spiritual system does that. As for the law itself, what Islam came to do was to MINIMIZE the corruption of this world in its social sphere and to MAXIMIZE the proper behavioral etiquettes as it pertains to societies.

I will give one slight example in order to allow for the readers to envision the matter. For many, the veil for Muslim women is obligatory and this has been the consentual view of the Muslim nation for about 13 centuries. Just for arguments sake, even if the reader is not of the view that it is obligatory, just for arguments sake, let us just say that it is. Let us say that the intent of covering for women in the Qur'an is indeed veiling, which inadvertently happened to be the exact practice of all the muslim women companions of the prophet and not just the prophet's wives.

Now, what we have in certain Muslim countries is that prostitutes use the veil for their prostitution. What would happen is that if the women finds a man that is to her liking, all she does is unveil her face to him and that becomes the signal for the hanky panky.

However, because the law of that country is set up under some form of Islamic legislation either to a larger extent or lesser extent, then the implementation of such vices like these become extremely hard to perform and thus the corruption and vice doesn't become the DNA of that society and the social fabric is not so deteriorated unlike in other muslim countries where the stripping of Islamic law has brought its people almost on par to its secular masters.

Thus the benefit of the covering of women outweighs the minuscule harm that such people may do to abuse such laws. This is because a universla rule of the human experience is that no society will be free of "criminals" i.e. mujrimeen. There will be no age in which any society will not have no criminal. What Islam offers is
1. safety from their harm (which entails the penal code of punishments [hudood])
2. and to reduce their affects on society with the implementation of our law, so that criminal activity becomes extremely hard to perform and likewise halaal activity becomes extremely easy to perform.

unfortunately in modern times, its seems as though the abolishment of the shariah has flipped the world where haraam is as easy as breathing and halaal is not as easy.

At any rate, I mention all of that so as to give us a tool to correctly understand our personal doubts about the nature of some things that are judged as haraam by Muslim scholars. Allah Himself testifies that there is some benefit in khamr (alcohol/intoxicants). The essence of all that I have stated above is based on the following ayaah where Allah said

They ask you (O Muhammad) concerning alcoholic drink and gambling. Say: "In them is a great sin, and (some) benefits for men, but the sin of them is greater than their benefit." [2:219]

One of the reasons for Allah highlighting this is so as to kill any persistence that we may come up with regards to ideas and highlighting the benefits of such things. In simpler terms, Allah has virtually refuted the act of people trying to rationalize the acceptability of such things that were declared as haraam as being halaal under the topic of "its benefits.

this lets us as servants of the Lord know that the declaratory nature of Allah's judgment's do not necessarily reside merely on sole benefit or sole harm, but in the weighing between the two as is evidenced in the underlined portion of the ayaah.

2. The Nature of Marijuana

Now this is a subject that i think needs to be studied. In my own personal view, I have found that weed does not have the properties of an "intoxicant". From my own personal experience (of smoking it) and as well as research on the properties of it, I would rather smoke a blunt than a cigarette because the prohibition of the cigarette was based on the fact that it can kill you. Marijuana on the other hand has no harmful effects like cigarettes does. Some medical analysis have found some harmful effects to the brain , but the research is with regards to heavy users. Moreover, it does not alter your state of consciousness like actual intoxicants. My own personal belief is that the subject of marijuana was administered to the research departments of various islamic communities or councils and they have judged the matter on the notions of the society who has had no experience with the plant and their already conceived notions of it. In the end, these societal emotions have placed a stipulation on this plant which inevitably lead to judging the issue based on biased research or views which i feel needs to be looked at again and reviewed.

However with all of that aside, I am not validating anything, I am rather presenting the issue as is, I myself would not revert back to smoking it on the basis that it was proven to be halaal once more which leads me to the next topic

3. The Islamic Concept of Waraa

al-Wara` - means to keep oneself from doubtful matters lest one should indulge in forbidden things unknowingly
[from Ibn Hajar’s Buloogh ul Maraam with notes from Subul us-Salaam by as-San`aanee [publ. by Dar as-Salam]

The feeling of abstinence from committing sins is wara'. It is even beyond the feeling of taqwa; it is avoiding the doubtful all together.

If a person has taqwa, he avoids the unlawful: He does not look at the unlawful, he does not touch the unlawful, he does not eat the unlawful. If a person has wara', he stays away from the doubtful with a fear of committing an offense. He acts very carefully. If a person is not careful, he may slip into the sin that would incur the wrath of Allah. That would be a terrible end for a person.

Some of the Zuhaad (Imaams of Abstension and piety) define wara’ as the conviction of the truth of Islamic tenets, being straightforward in one’s beliefs and acts, being steadfast in observing Islamic commandments, and being very careful in one’s relations with God Almighty. Others define it as not being heedless of God even for the period of the twinkling of an eye, and others as permanently closing them-selves to all that is not Him, as not lowering oneself before anyone except Him (for the fulfillment of one’s needs or other reasons), and as advancing until reaching God without getting stuck with one’s ego, carnal self and desires, and the world.

Wara’ relates to both the inner and outer aspects of a believer’s life and conduct. A traveler on the path of wara’ must have reached the peaks of taqwa; his or her life must reflect a strict observance of the Shari‘a’s commands and prohibitions; his or her actions must be for the sake of God; his or her heart and feelings must be purged of whatever is other than God; and he or she always must feel the company of Allah for as we know, if we cannot see Allah, then we definitely know and are cognizant of Him being aware of what we do.

One such example is when the sister of Bishr al-Khafi' asked Ahmad ibn Hanbal:

O Imam, I usually spin (wool) on the roof of my house at night. At that time, some officials pass by with torches in their hands, and I happen to benefit, even unwillingly, from the light of their torches. Does this mean that I mix into my earnings something gained through a religiously unlawful way? The great Imam wept bitterly at this question and replied: Something doubtful even to such a minute degree must not find a way into the house of Bishr al-Khafi.

It was also during this period that people shed tears for the rest of their lives because they had cast a single glance at something forbidden, and people who vomited a piece of unlawful food that they had swallowed in ignorance wept for days. As related by ‘Abdullah ibn Mubarak, a great traditionist and ascetic, a man traveled from Merv (Afghanistan) to Makka in order to return to its owner an item that he had put in his pocket by mistake. There were many who gave life-long service to those to whom they thought they owed something, such as Fudayl ibn ‘Iyad. Biographies of saints, such as Hilyat al-Awliya’ (The Necklace of Saints) by Abu Nu‘aym al-Isfahani, and al-Tabaqat al-Kubra (The Greatest Compendium) by Imam al-Sharani, are full of the accounts of such heroes of abstinence.

what is the purpose of bringing this up.

One of the Attributes of having waraa is that the servant does not overly involve himself with the "permissible" matters. In other words, just because the servant of the Lord knows that something is indeed halaal, he obtains from it. This aspect of spirituality comes from m'arifa' which means being cognizant of the ultimate reality.

Casting these above fact to the topic of marijuana, there are some conclusive facts that come about

For arguments sake, let us assume that weed is actually halaal. The problem is that

1. There is a certain culture that emanates from weed and the behavioral etiquettes in this culture are not necessarily from those in which Islam views as "proper". This is a general norm, and while it may not pertain specifically to an individual, it is indeed something inherent if practiced on a societal level.
and in Islam, judgments are based on the general rules, and not the exception.
2. People who have integrity with Allah do not indulge in matters that even "seem" as a matter that the spiritually bankrupt practice, much less that are clearly haraam.

An example of this is going to markets and stores. The act itself, its base ruling is one of being disliked (makruh) however its ruling is made permissible due to necessity. However, in spite of this permissibility, the people who have integrity with Allah find in their nature that markets are places were the dictates of Allah are exploited or completely defied.

Now this brings me to point 4
4. The messenger of Allah narrated in a hadeeth that a universal principle that all the prophets taught their people was
"If you have no shame, then do as you like"

This is one of the most powerful and comprehensive statements ever made on the human tongue. It entails two meanings and even sub meanings under it, but for the sake of brevity, i will highlight the main two
a. it first means that if you find no shame in something, then go ahead and do it
b. the second meaning is that the people with no shame, will do exactly what they want.

smoking weed is among the actions of those who "have no shame" for the most part, or very little shame.
Not only that, even if that is not the case, people who have waraa of Allah, they will naturally have a tendency to shame towards smoking this plant.

5. from my own personal experience, after smoking with hundreds and hundreds of people, none of them developed the attributes of "accuracy" that you have highlighted for yourself. From my experience, we became lazy, too hungry, developed stinky breath, developed misplaced priorities, and ultimately spent money on this over more necessary matters because in our view, smoking was necessary. Of course we would not get violent or departed from reason as actual intoxicants do, nevertheless there is a different set of circumstances that one can bring that demoralizes its uses. Again, this is on a general level and may not always be applied 100 percent specifically to an individual, rather Islam generates its rulings on the general norm and not the exceptions.

Likewise the plant is associated with partying, and other matters that are clearly haraam.


Now, let us go back to the narration of Ahmad bin Hanbal

The reply of Ahmad bin Hanbal was this

Something doubtful even to such a minute degree must not find a way into the house of Bishr al-Khafi.

What he has declared for her implicitly was that it was haraam for her to utilize the light of the soldiers in order to spin her wool.

The ruling in Islam on this topic was that of permissibility. So the question remains why did Ahmad prohibit this for her. The answer was because her station is not the station of merely "Islam" and being Muslim, rather her station was that of "ihsaan" (which means to worship Allah in the realm of perfection), thus what is halaal for average people is not necessarily the same ruling for someone of a higher status in the cognizance of Allah Subhaanahu.

Another example of waraa in action is by a sahaabi who was injured during battle and whom it was necessary to amputate his leg. They were going to pour alcohol over it but he refused. They said it was legal for him to do so under such condition. At that juncture he continued his stance and offered a reasoning in which I wish I could remember. Nevertheless, the point here is that even under permissible scenarios, the one who has a certain level of consciousness of Allah will not opt to do those things that bring shame even if there is a type of reasoning for it.

In conclusion, I would say that one should seek knowledge with sincerity. Likewise that the matter be looked at from various angles and with other evidences based on the fact that weed may not particularly fall under an intoxicant, and overall, no matter of the outcome, there are associated norms associated with its usage and as well as the effects it may cause in the psychological aspects of a person's waraa and that a human's waraa should not be wasted in the pursuit of pleasure or to fulfill "some" benefit and Allah knows best

Asalamu alaikum warahmatullah

Reply

14yearold
05-23-2011, 04:21 AM
Again, I say the same thing yet you continue to slander. I dont know if youre doing it intentionally or not but anyways. Why do you think those Cannabis Smokers Smoke weed in the first place? Its to deal with their sychosis or whatever problem they had in the first place. Also, smokers are 40% more likely to go insane? LOL Like mentioned before, quit talking about things you dont know.

And I know what Im talking about because I use marijuana on a daily basis. Like I said, You can't ask a Christian Priest for a Fatwa. Dont speak things you hae no knowledge of, try posting your argument in Grass City Forums and then youd realize haha.
Reply

Woodrow
05-23-2011, 04:30 AM
This thread is not going to accomplish anything. We do not approve the smoking of any substance, especially not an illegal one. We do not endorse the attempt to promote it's usage.

enough said.

End of conversation

:threadclo:
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