Is" Love" an Eternal, Uncreated Reality?

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I guess this is a pretty simple question with good philsophical ramifications.

Is "Love" (as a personal experience of communion, intimacy, and other-oriented benefaction) an eternal, uncreated reality?

What this means is this: Does "Love" as an existent, discrete reality need Creation to exist in order to be actual?

Conceptually, let's say that we "in" the pre-Creation, uncreated state of all reality. Where there is nothing but Allah.

Does Love exist "here"? If so, how? If not, why not?

Fire away, brothers and sisters. :shade:
 
Is "Heartburn" (as a personal experience of communion, intimacy, and other-oriented benefaction) an eternal, uncreated reality? What this means is this: Does "heartburn" as an existent, discrete reality need Creation to exist in order to be actual? Conceptually, let's say that we "in" the pre-Creation, uncreated state of all reality. Where there is nothing but Allah. Does heartburn exist "here"? If so, how? If not, why not

sorry I couldn't help it.. :haha: take the emotion of your choice and stick it there.. since I have been feeling heartburn from my mac and cheese, I think it is a more pressing reality than love at the moment, would really love to discuss it in philosophical terms and considerations.. Fire away, brothers and sisters.
 
Ok, Lily. Let's perhaps make it more "relevant" to you...aiight?

Has it eternally been the case that that Allah has experienced Himself as the "All-Loving One" and "All-Compassionate One" pre-Creation...when the only reality was Allah's uncreated Presence? If so, how? By what context?

Hmmm...more interesting? The questions essentially describe the same reality.
 
YieldedOne said:
Ok, Lily. Let's perhaps make it more "relevant" to you...aiight? Has it eternally been the case that that Allah has experienced Himself as the "All-Loving One" and "All-Compassionate One" pre-Creation...when the only reality was Allah's uncreated Presence? If so, how? By what context? Hmmm...more interesting?
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We don't know of life or non-life outside the laws of our known universe. Since God according to Islamic beliefs exists outside of those, we simply have no way of conjecturing anything about God save of the things that God revealed to us of his being.
I don't think your question is ''hmmmmmm.. more interesting'' I believe it falls by way of vain discourse and I suppose one will constantly feel this dilemma if God can suckle, and Annunciate and pray and die.. so perhaps this is best addressed to christians on a christian forum?

all the best
 
Compassion is "other-oriented benefaction" in it's essence. Lovingkindness deals with the experience of empathy, the presupposition of intimate relationships and communion with others, experiencing another's pain/pleasure as one's own.

Do these things exist eternally as actualities? Or are they mere potentialities that only actualize when there's a Creation.
 
YieldedOne said:
Compassion is "other-oriented benefaction" in it's essence. Lovingkindness deals with the experience of empathy, the presupposition of intimate relationships and communion with others, experiencing another's pain/pleasure as one's own.

Do these things exist eternally as actualities? Or are they mere potentialities that only actualize when there's a Creation.
Click to expand...

Certainly God doesn't need creation to be the being of God. our life is based on compare and contrast and measurements, we wouldn't know of light without darkness, of health without sickness, or happiness without misery, of pain without well being. These laws only apply to us.. compare and contrast need not exist outside of our known universe and may not even exist in the way we understand it by other creatures.
We know of four seasons, perhaps there are 16 on a different plane and realm that we can't even remotely fathom.
How is it that you have the unmitigated effrontery to speculate of the being of God? Why must everything be brought down to your low common denominator for you to display some semblance of belief?


[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:16] We created not the heaven and the earth and all that is between them in play.
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:17] If We had wished to find a pastime, We could have found it in Our presence - if We ever did.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:18] Nay, but We hurl the true against the false, and it doth break its head and lo! it vanisheth. And yours will be woe for that which ye ascribe (unto Him).[/SIZE]
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 21:19] Unto Him belongeth whosoever is in the heavens and the earth. And those who dwell in His presence are not too proud to worship Him, nor do they weary;[/SIZE][/SIZE]
 
Lily:
We don't know of life or non-life outside the laws of our known universe. Since God according to Islamic beliefs exists outside of those, we simply have no way of conjecturing anything about God save of the things that God revealed to us of his being.

But I thought that God revealed Godself as the "All-Compassionate One" and the "All-Loving One", right? The question is simple: Has Allah always experienced himself this way, even without Creation...or did the Uncreated Allah "need" Creation in order to experience Himself as "Loving" and "Compassionate?

This ain't got nothing to do with Christianity at all. Seriously. I ain't even on that...so let's kill all that. This is more of a philsophical question in the idea of God as uncreated, eternal monadic personal being. Basically, is it philosophically tenable for Allah as an absolute monad experience Himself as Loving or Compassionate pre-Creation...when "all" was uncreated?

That's a fair, NON-theological question.

So, I guess this is for any with a philosophical bent. Whoever wants to engage, do so. :D
 
YieldedOne said:
Lily:
We don't know of life or non-life outside the laws of our known universe. Since God according to Islamic beliefs exists outside of those, we simply have no way of conjecturing anything about God save of the things that God revealed to us of his being.

But I thought that God revealed Godself as the "All-Compassionate One" and the "All-Loving One", right? The question is simple: Has Allah always experienced himself this way, even without Creation...or did the Uncreated Allah "need" Creation in order to experience Himself as "Loving" and "Compassionate?

This ain't got nothing to do with Christianity at all. Seriously. I ain't even on that...so let's kill all that. This is more of a philsophical question in the idea of God as uncreated, eternal monadic personal being. Basically, is it philosophically tenable for Allah as an absolute monad experience Himself as Loving or Compassionate pre-Creation...when "all" was uncreated?

That's a fair, NON-theological question.

So, I guess this is for any with a philosophical bent. Whoever wants to engage, do so. :D
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see reply number 6--and try to use quotes, it is very confusing to sort through what the crap you write from what others write. It is common courtesy and it is free!

all the best
 
A shorter way of saying it...

Was Allah eternally "al-Rahman"? Did Allah experience himself as beneficent, compassionate, love-giving when nothing else but Allah existed? If so, how?

This is not sacreligious to ask. God has revealed Himself as person (I Am)...and has revealed himself as All-Compassionate, All-Loving, and All-Beneficent. So we are talking about the philosophical ramification of what Allah has revealed about himself.

That's totally fair.
 
YieldedOne said:
A shorter way of saying it... Was Allah eternally "al-Rahman"? Did Allah experience himself as beneficent, compassionate, love-giving when nothing else but Allah existed? If so, how? This is not sacreligious to ask. God has revealed Himself as person (I Am)...and has revealed himself as All-Compassionate, All-Loving, and All-Beneficent. So we are talking about the philosophical ramification of what Allah has revealed about himself. That's totally fair.
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Rather God revealed those as attributes of his being .. God isn't a person except in christian mythology!

all the best
 
Whoa! The One God who spoke to and listened to Abraham wasn't a unique personal being capable of communicating with another personal being?

What? Are you serious?
 
This question is similar to the "can God lift a stone..." type questions. The only thing which is eternal is God therefore Love cannot exist alone since that would imply it exists independently of God. The reason it's not a valid question is that you could just as easily say that if humans were not created would God know Chinese? These questions are flawed because you are questioning God like our rules apply to Him. We cannot comprehend would be the most accurate answer.
 
YieldedOne said:
Is "Love" (as a personal experience of communion, intimacy, and other-oriented benefaction) an eternal, uncreated reality?
Click to expand...

To answer your main question: Is Love an eternal, uncreated reality?

The answer is, "Love" is a created thing, just as other unseen things are also created things, such as Paradise and Hell. Before the creation of such things as "Love", "Compassion", "Mercy", "Justice" etc..... there had to have been a Creator who came before all these. This Creator, who is also known by the name of Al-Awwal, meaning The First, created all things that we can see as well as things that we can't see.

"Love" is only one of His creations and it's an eternal quality. A quality which matches the quality of the Creator Himself, who is The Eternal.
 
YieldedOne said:
Whoa! The One God who spoke to and listened to Abraham wasn't a unique personal being capable of communicating with another personal being?

What? Are you serious?
Click to expand...

YieldedOne said:
God has revealed Himself as person (I Am).
Click to expand...


Do you know what the definition of a person is?


  • a human being; "there was too much for one person to do"
  • a human body (usually including the clothing); "a weapon was hidden on his person"
    wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
so Yeah I am serious. God didn't describe his being as a person, again, perhaps that is an easier concept that is in concert with christian mythology but not with Islam.
Also see Br. Dagless comment on the matter, you can also google it under Islamicboard and will see how the topic was tackled in multitudes of ways .. it just another non-question posed by Idolaters although more favored by atheists!

all the best
 
ah, another thread on love?

all I know is that I love trees. Would this love exist if trees didnt exist?
 
and its funny how dollar stores sell those "guardian angels" to be put on the car dashboard.
 
I agree with Vale's Lily in post number 6 that we as humans tend to think in dichotomies. We cannot truly experience one without the other. We must know dark to be able to know light. God exists outside of these contrasts.

At the same time God "is" all of these things. Does "love" exist outside of creation? Absolutely, because God is love. When you wrote that God is the "I am," you must also think of what that means. What is it to say God is the "I am"? "I am _____." God IS love. God IS merciful. God IS compassionate. God IS grace. God IS the provider. God IS..... He is all that we can think that he is and more. He exists outside of creation. He exists before creation. He is not dependent upon his creation. To ask if he is _____ apart from creation is like asking if he exists apart from creation. Creation does not add or subtract from God.

Since you focused on love, I will only say that what the majority of humankind imagines "love" is, is not truly what God's love is. Most are incapable of fathoming the definition and dimensions of his love.

Just my opinion. :)
 
Christians truly love to follow their desires and whims without evidence.
Even evidence from their own bible that says Jesus is not God.

Since the OP asked in an ISLAMIC forum whether love is eternal, uncreated, here's the answer with evidence:

[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]Hadhrat Abu Hurairah (Radhi Allaho anho) related that the Holy Prophet (Sall Allaho alaihe wasallam) said: "Allah created mercy in one hundred parts and distributed to His creation only one part. Because of this one part, there is mutual love amongst creation, so much so that an animal will lift up its hoof from its young one, fearing that it might harm it. Allah has reserved the remaining ninety-nine parts of this mercy to favour His believing servants on the Day of Judgment. " (Bukhari and Muslim)

Remember that mercy encompasses love.
Not only that, how can anything be uncreated when the only uncreated is God.


I am actually very amused how christians make such a big deal of such limited emotion such as love.
And to say that love is uncreated!!!
What, do christians now worship love?
So worshipping a man who took toilet breaks is not enough for christians that they now worship love and think love is all that there is?

Unbelievable!
Thats what you get when you don't have the truth.[/FONT]
 
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Love is really just a combination of attachment and lust, and it has been proven the best way for a child to be raised is in a enviroment with both a mother and father. Love could just be a psychological function to help that happen.
 

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