Is" Love" an Eternal, Uncreated Reality?
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YieldedOne
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Thanks for all the interaction, all! I've got more to say, but I'll put this quickly.
I think that Sufi Muslims don't devalue love at all. See Rabia Basri as an example.
A "limited" emotion, indeed. Heh.
I think that Sufi Muslims don't devalue love at all. See Rabia Basri as an example.
A "limited" emotion, indeed. Heh.
Ramadhan
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your m.o. remains the same as in the other threads, instead of engaging in discussions, you keep on trying to shove your idea of Islam and disregarded every explanations offered to you.
yes.
Your god jesus killed and struck down enemies of the jews; women, babies and all.
so jesus killing all those people is "love"?
christians certainly have some sick twisted concept of love.
YieldedOne
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Not a problem, Naidamar. I won't "waste" time further. It was good to get thoughts on this subject. I think I've gotten the impression that Love is a "creation" of God...so I see that. This has been a wonderful "dip" in the pool of interfaith dialogue and I've learned much.
Allah's peace and blessings to all!
Allah's peace and blessings to all!
Woodrow
May Allah have mercy on him رحمة الله عليه
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English is stuck with just one or 2 words to denote Love. Love is many faceted and english does not have an adequate vocabulary to describe the various forms we have things like:
Love of God(swt)
Love of country
Love of Religion
Love of a Parent
Love of a Mother
Love of a Father
Love of a spouse
Love of a child
Love of a possession
Love of an object of beauty
Love of nature
Love of Life
Love of a concept/idea
Love of life
and many, many more. each very unique and only thing in common is each evokes a pleasant visceral feeling.
In some things it is evident the love is a created thing and sometimes even has to be experienced and learned. such as the Love for literature (for many people, it has to be learned and developed)
Yet some types of love seem to have been part of our nature and was given to some of us the moment we were created. Such as an innate Love for God(swt).
To answer the question some love is eternal and uncreated, while the most common loves we all experience seem to require the creation of the object or concept followed by a learning period that leads to the discovery of a love.
Love of God(swt)
Love of country
Love of Religion
Love of a Parent
Love of a Mother
Love of a Father
Love of a spouse
Love of a child
Love of a possession
Love of an object of beauty
Love of nature
Love of Life
Love of a concept/idea
Love of life
and many, many more. each very unique and only thing in common is each evokes a pleasant visceral feeling.
In some things it is evident the love is a created thing and sometimes even has to be experienced and learned. such as the Love for literature (for many people, it has to be learned and developed)
Yet some types of love seem to have been part of our nature and was given to some of us the moment we were created. Such as an innate Love for God(swt).
To answer the question some love is eternal and uncreated, while the most common loves we all experience seem to require the creation of the object or concept followed by a learning period that leads to the discovery of a love.
YieldedOne
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Man, Woodrow. That was compelling. Your response was really inspiring...and gave me a new perspective on this.
Let it be said that Allah is ultimately an unknowable mystery. But I don't think it's wrong to say that Allah can know Himself and love Himself. Supposedly it's possible for a personal being to love themselves, such that the experience "evokes a pleasant visceral feeling" within them. Surely, Allah could have such an experience about Himself...even before Creation existed, yes? Basically, it's not sacreligious or impious to say that Allah knows himself and loves what he knows about Himself. We are not talking about narcissistic dysfunctional self-preoccupation. Healthy self-understanding and true self-appreciation would be the human analogy of what we speak. As I think of it, Allah's healthy love for Himself would be the only type of Love that can be eternal and uncreated. If this is true, then the "love of God" is an eternal, uncreated reality...and needs no creaturely thing as a referent.
And what's interesting is just what Woodrow stated about the "innate love for God". I think that the "innate Love for God" that is "part of our nature" and "given to some of us the moment we were created" would be re-presentative of that eternal, uncreated reality. When WE love Allah with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, we image what Allah has always done...even before Creation. That's probably why loving Allah with all the heart, soul, mind, and strength is the Greatest Commandment. Allah commands us to do for Him...what He's always done for Himself, and in so doing, participate in eternal, uncreated reality.
Said a different way, living in the love for God is living in the eternal and uncreated while still in Creation.
Total Love for God (and submission to God and God's Will out of that love) is "eternal life."
Maybe?
Anyway...Thanks a bunch, Woodrow. I was gone, but your response was very, very compelling! Thanks again!
Let it be said that Allah is ultimately an unknowable mystery. But I don't think it's wrong to say that Allah can know Himself and love Himself. Supposedly it's possible for a personal being to love themselves, such that the experience "evokes a pleasant visceral feeling" within them. Surely, Allah could have such an experience about Himself...even before Creation existed, yes? Basically, it's not sacreligious or impious to say that Allah knows himself and loves what he knows about Himself. We are not talking about narcissistic dysfunctional self-preoccupation. Healthy self-understanding and true self-appreciation would be the human analogy of what we speak. As I think of it, Allah's healthy love for Himself would be the only type of Love that can be eternal and uncreated. If this is true, then the "love of God" is an eternal, uncreated reality...and needs no creaturely thing as a referent.
And what's interesting is just what Woodrow stated about the "innate love for God". I think that the "innate Love for God" that is "part of our nature" and "given to some of us the moment we were created" would be re-presentative of that eternal, uncreated reality. When WE love Allah with all our heart, soul, mind, and strength, we image what Allah has always done...even before Creation. That's probably why loving Allah with all the heart, soul, mind, and strength is the Greatest Commandment. Allah commands us to do for Him...what He's always done for Himself, and in so doing, participate in eternal, uncreated reality.
Said a different way, living in the love for God is living in the eternal and uncreated while still in Creation.
Total Love for God (and submission to God and God's Will out of that love) is "eternal life."
Maybe?
Anyway...Thanks a bunch, Woodrow. I was gone, but your response was very, very compelling! Thanks again!
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Is the Islamic concept of God a monad?---We do say God is One, Indivisible, "Unity".....
---but God is not One as in a number for when we think of a numerical one, it means there is a two and a three...etc....And the same also works for physical or conceptual indivisibilty or the idea of a Unity as a"self-contained", "independent entity".....words create limitations and God cannot be "contained" or limited. Lao Tzu says in the Tao te Ching, "Tao is beyond words and beyond understanding. Words may be used to speak of it, but they cannot contain it."
So when we use words and concepts we distort the Divine. When we speak of God "loving himself" ---the question arises---Does God have a "self"(consiousness). It is important for Muslims to not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising God for then we might create mental images.---This dangerously limits our understanding of God.
So how can Muslims understand God? Tawheed is an instinctive/intuitive understanding of the Divine that does not have to rely on the limitations of language. (fitrah) This is also an idea echoed (again) by Lao Tzu,
"Since before time and space were, Tao is.
it is beyond "is" and "is not".
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.
This is what highly developed spiritual seekers do--they look inside themselves and discover the embedded knowledge of tawheed. But when they try to express it in words/language, they often fail to convey its limitless vastness. ---and normal people like us misunderstand......
The emotion of love can be divided into 2 types. The love of "self" or self-love, and the love of other or selfless-love. When the Quran speaks of the attributes of Al-rahman, Al-rahim, it is speaking in the context of "selfless love". It is this aspect of Tawheed that the Sufi poets try to mirror in themselves and express.....
Again, Lao tzu explain this relationship of Love----
"The Tao gives birth to all beings
Nourishes them,
Maintains them
Cares for them
Takes them back to itself
Creating without possessing
Acting witout expecting
Guiding without interfering
That is why the love of the Tao
Is in the very nature of things"
God is compassionate and merciful to all his creation--words/language can only give us a glimpse---the size of an atom.
Just as it is dangerous to anthropomorphise God, it is equally dangerous to give divinity to created/human concepts such as love, compassion...etc. Thus when we speak of things such as love, we are using language and this restricts expression to human understanding and human concepts. Attributes of God used for purposes of human understanding are only a tiny glimpse.
---but God is not One as in a number for when we think of a numerical one, it means there is a two and a three...etc....And the same also works for physical or conceptual indivisibilty or the idea of a Unity as a"self-contained", "independent entity".....words create limitations and God cannot be "contained" or limited. Lao Tzu says in the Tao te Ching, "Tao is beyond words and beyond understanding. Words may be used to speak of it, but they cannot contain it."
So when we use words and concepts we distort the Divine. When we speak of God "loving himself" ---the question arises---Does God have a "self"(consiousness). It is important for Muslims to not fall into the trap of anthropomorphising God for then we might create mental images.---This dangerously limits our understanding of God.
So how can Muslims understand God? Tawheed is an instinctive/intuitive understanding of the Divine that does not have to rely on the limitations of language. (fitrah) This is also an idea echoed (again) by Lao Tzu,
"Since before time and space were, Tao is.
it is beyond "is" and "is not".
How do I know this is true?
I look inside myself and see.
This is what highly developed spiritual seekers do--they look inside themselves and discover the embedded knowledge of tawheed. But when they try to express it in words/language, they often fail to convey its limitless vastness. ---and normal people like us misunderstand......
The emotion of love can be divided into 2 types. The love of "self" or self-love, and the love of other or selfless-love. When the Quran speaks of the attributes of Al-rahman, Al-rahim, it is speaking in the context of "selfless love". It is this aspect of Tawheed that the Sufi poets try to mirror in themselves and express.....
Again, Lao tzu explain this relationship of Love----
"The Tao gives birth to all beings
Nourishes them,
Maintains them
Cares for them
Takes them back to itself
Creating without possessing
Acting witout expecting
Guiding without interfering
That is why the love of the Tao
Is in the very nature of things"
God is compassionate and merciful to all his creation--words/language can only give us a glimpse---the size of an atom.
Just as it is dangerous to anthropomorphise God, it is equally dangerous to give divinity to created/human concepts such as love, compassion...etc. Thus when we speak of things such as love, we are using language and this restricts expression to human understanding and human concepts. Attributes of God used for purposes of human understanding are only a tiny glimpse.