Questions from an Atheist

[joboman24]

i am an atheist. I was born and brought up as a hindu. Why do we as human beings have so much faith in god whether it's allah, krishna, or jesus. Just because someone tells us and wrote in a book that there is a god why should be have in discriminant faith on a specific god and why do we kill each other about our different beliefs or being a "nonbeliever"? Why do we not get any messages from the people who have passed on in the afterlife so to tell us that there "actually" is a paradise? Why are we conditioned since birth to believe in a specific religion and will go to the ends of the earth's to protect it?

[جوري]

faith should be born of reason and the question of the ages should be answered by your own person, it isn't something someone else can bestow upon you.
when you've reasoned Islam and that is all I will talk about it in your heart and mind it becomes a chain of one molten iron with no breaks in the link, then you'll walk aright and the little detours offered by the devil and his pawn will become patent and meaningless!

best,

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greetings of peace,

I'll answer your question from a muslim's point of view, the answer to the 'why's' is simply because we believe there is a purpose to life, and our creator is the one that has informed us of this.

Why do we as human beings have so much faith in god whether it's allah, krishna, or jesus.

Because he is a our creator whom created us, and Jesus (PBUH) is NOT God nor was Krishna they were men, humans.

I could ask you a similar questions, why do you not believe in God? What is the purpose of life? Do we just live a life on this earth and then rot away for no complete reason? On an earth where people kill each other, love each other, etc etc, is there no one who owns or takes care? What about those killed and never receive their justice in this life, they will never? How unjust life is in that case!

Just because someone tells us and wrote in a book that there is a god why should be have in discriminant faith on a specific god and why do we kill each other about our different beliefs or being a "nonbeliever"?

Discriminant?, There is only ONE God, and doesn't teach us to discriminate each other.

Killing another for no complete reason is not the teaching of Islam. Do not judge the book by it's followers, muslim's are not perfect, while Islaam is.


Because of that We ordained for the Children of Israel that if anyone killed a person not in retaliation of murder, or (and) to spread mischief in the land - it would be as if he killed all mankind, and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of all mankind. And indeed, there came to them Our Messengers with clear proofs, evidence, and signs, even then after that many of them continued to exceed the limits (e.g. by doing oppression unjustly and exceeding beyond the limits set by Allah by committing the major sins) in the land![Al Qur'aan 5:32]

Why do we not get any messages from the people who have passed on in the afterlife so to tell us that there "actually" is a paradise?

To put it simply, this is planet earth and when your in Paradise, no sane individual after entering paradise would want to come back on earth.

Why are we conditioned since birth to believe in a specific religion and will go to the ends of the earth's to protect it?

Were 'conditioned'? to do what exactly? why are we conditioned to do good and forbid evil? (from islamic point of view)

I advice you to study Islaam in order to gain some amount of knowledge.

[CosmicPathos]

i am an atheist. I was born and brought up as a hindu. Why do we as human beings have so much faith in god whether it's allah, krishna, or jesus. Just because someone tells us and wrote in a book that there is a god why should be have in discriminant faith on a specific god and why do we kill each other about our different beliefs or being a "nonbeliever"? Why do we not get any messages from the people who have passed on in the afterlife so to tell us that there "actually" is a paradise? Why are we conditioned since birth to believe in a specific religion and will go to the ends of the earth's to protect it?

Humans have been killing each other for eons for reasons such as money, property, women. one's woman slept with another's, kill. Someone had jewellery, kill and steal it. So on and so forth.

You dont seem to then say that womena and jewellery are evil. Yet you only say that for religion. Perhaps you need to first sort out the contradictions within yourself.

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[joboman24]

ok I am going to try to answer all questions based on what everyone has posted. to ghareebah who has said he allah is the creator? The "prophet" muhammad has said that. Why is it that we are blindly believing muhammad? Just because he said allah is "god" why should be have "blind faith". And you ask me why I don't believe in God? I don't believe in god because there is no evidence that there is a "god" except for the blind faith people put for no reason except for a book where allah is prophesized as a god. I can write a book also and say that I am god and write all these different ways to lead "life". When "allah" comes down to earth and tells me that he is actually "god" then I will put my faith upon him. Otherwise it is just another human being(muhammad) who had taken advantage of the people during when human beings were in crisis and made them blindly follow his path and it has been passed on from generation to generation. Human beings have been on this earth for the last 400,000 years how come there was no god then but all of a sudden muhammad came up with allah being a god 1400 years ago? Human beings survived just fine the 390,000 years before that. And to your second reply Human beings are just a more evolved and complex form of animals. You do realize that if we didn't have to have survival instincts like other species and had to kill other animals for food we would have not evolved from generation to generation. Our brains evolved over 100's of thousands of years because human beings didn't have to live their life thinking only about killing other animals for food or surviving from other animals as prey. This caused the human brain to evolve. This is backed by science 100%. To your third question you say no one who goes to paradise would want to come back to earth. You don't think 1 person out of the 100's of millions of muslims who have died over the past 100-1000's of years would want to come back to earth just for one second to tell us about paradise so we have extra faith and contemptness and relief and happiness about the after life and we aren't scared or nervous to die? And to your final response I have read excerpts of the quran, the bible, and the bhagvat gita. They are all very similar in what they say about how to lead your life and any human being who has some form of intelligence could have written that based on common sense. And you are saying humans have been killing each other and why aren't women and jewelery evil? Why should they be? Women are as evil/nonevil as men. And jewlery is something monetary and nonliving. If you want to consider it evil then fine that is up to you. How am I contradicting myself? Humans have been killing each other right? Just like extremists of your religion come to my country in India and kill 200+ innocent people in mumbai for what? Because allah tells them to do so because of the ongoing conflict between jammu kashmir? Is that what he says to kill innocent civilians? You are the one that is contradicting yourself and your beliefs.

[Insanely.Krazii]

Believe in God is the most important thing in faith. If someone does not believe that God exists then he is in deep astray.Does God exist? We have never seen God. We have never talked with God. That is why the Atheists believe God does not exist. It is just a fantasy or a made up thing!

The Story of a Scholar and an Atheist
There is one story of a Scholar and an Atheist. Long ago an Atheist did not believe the existence of God. He asked a scholar for a debate about the existence of God. Among the questions are: “Does God exist?” and “If God exists then where is God?”
Then they decided when and where the debate takes place.
The Atheist and the villagers were waiting for the scholar, but the scholar did not come right on time. When the Atheist and the villagers thought that the scholar will not come for the debate, then the scholar showed up.
“I am sorry to keep you waiting for so long. But the rain is so heavy so the river floods. The bridge drifted away so I could not cross it. Thank God suddenly there was a big tree fell down. Then the branches cut out by themselves so the trunk was branchless. After that the trunk was cut and a hole was created so it became a boat. So I used the boat and crossed the river,” said the scholar.
The Atheist and the villagers were laughing. The Atheist said to the villagers, “This scholar is mad. How can a tree became a boat by itself with no one made it? How can a boat exist with no maker who made it?”
The villagers were laughing out loud.
After the people calmed down, the scholar said, “If you believe that the boat could not exist without its maker, then how could you believe the earth, sky, and its contents exist without its creator? Which is the most difficult to make? Making a boat or creating the earth, sky, and its contents?
Hearing that, they realized that they trapped with their own statement.
“Then answer my second question,” said the Atheist. “If God exists, why can’t He be seen? Where is God?” The Atheist thought since he cannot see God then God does not exist.
The scholar slapped the Atheist’s cheek hardly so the Atheist felt so much pain.
“Why did you slap me? It’s very painful”
The scholar asked, “There is no pain. I cannot see pain. Where is pain?”
“The pain is here,” the Atheist pointed his cheek.
“No, I cannot see pain. Do you see the pain?” asked the scholar to the villagers.
The villagers said, “No!”
“So, though we cannot see the pain does not mean that the pain does not exist. So is the God. Just because we cannot see the God does not mean that God does not exist. Though we cannot see Him, but we can see His creations.” Said the scholar.
The argument of the scholar is very simple. Yet, the argument that God does not exist just because human’s sense could not sense the existence of God is very wrong.
How many things that could not be seen or heard by people but exist?
We cannot see the Wind but the Wind exists. We cannot see electricity (what you can see is wire) but electricity exist.
How many things in the sky that billions light years away, even trillions light years away that could not be seen by people yet the things exist?
How many molecular things even nucleus (hair divided in millions) that cannot be seen by people yet exist? People could only see those things by using a very powerful microscope.
How many waves (radio, electromagnetic, electricity, etc) that cannot be seen yet exist?

Those things exist, yet the human sense is very limited so it cannot sense their existence.
The human ability to see colors limited to certain frequencies. People only could hear limited frequencies. Sometimes the light not only very dazzling but also could make people blind. So is the sound. Certain sound could not be heard by human sense while other sound which is very loud could destroy human‘s hearing.
If to sense the creatures of God, sometimes people could not do it, even more to sense the Creator: God!
The Universe, Who is its Creator?
It is hard to proof that God exists. But if we take a look to the planes, cars, TVs, etc, it would be irrational if we say that all exist by themselves. There must be people who make them!
If the simple thing such as the match has its makers, then the universe that far more complex than that must be has its creator.
The Earth where 8 billion people live has circumference 40,000 km. The circumference of the Sun is 4.3 million km. The Sun and its 8 planets along with 100 billion stars are in the Milky Way galaxy whose length is 100,000 light years away.
Milky Way is only a galaxy among thousands galaxies that form a Cluster. This cluster with thousands clusters form 1 Super Cluster. And thousands of Super Clusters form the Universe whose length is 30 billion light years away! Remember, the number 30 billion light years away only current estimation since the strongest telescope today only could reach 15 billion light years away.

Imagine if the distance between Earth and the Sun is 150 million km and passed by the light in just 8 minute, then the whole Universe passed by the light in 30 billion years. That is equal to 285 billion trillion km away. If a man could run 40 km/hour without stopping, he would pass the distance in 810,000 trillion years!
That is the greatness of Allah’s creation! If we believe in the magnificence of Allah’s creation, then we should believe in the magnificence of Allah.
In the Quran Allah explains that He is the creator of Heaven, Star, Sun, Moon, and others:
“Blessed be He Who hath placed in the heaven mansions of the stars, and hath placed therein a great lamp and a moon giving light!” [Quran 25:61]
Is there a Controller of the Universe?
There are millions of people controlling the traffic on road, sea, and air. Beacons are built. People also build traffic light and radar. Air Traffic Control is built to prevent accident. All vehicles have drivers. Even on airplane there are pilot and co-pilot to make the flight safer. On the ships there are Captain, navigator, and engineers. Yet thousands of accidents happen every year on land, sea, and air. Even though there are many controllers, the accidents still happen.

On the contrary, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, and others always revolve for billions of years without single crash. Most scientists believe that the Earth, Sun, and all of the other planets and moons in the solar system formed about 4.6 billion years ago. For billions of years until now the Earth never bump into the Sun, and the Sun never collides with the Moon. There is no mark, police, nor pilots to drive them. Without God, the Controller of the Universe, none of these would happen. Everything is in order because there is God who controls everything. Allah has put orbit for each of those things. If we really think about it then we will know that God exist.
“He it is who appointed the sun a splendor and the moon stages, that ye might know the number of the years, and the reckoning. Allah created not (all) that save in truth. He detaileth the revelations for people who have knowledge” [Quran 10:5]
“It is not for the sun to overtake the moon, nor doth the night outstrip the day. They float each in an orbit” [Quran:40]
.
People who think a lot about universe insha Allah will believe that there is a God!
“Allah it is who raised up the heavens without visible supports, then mounted the Throne, and compelled the sun and the moon to be of service, each runneth unto an appointed term; He ordereth the course; He detaileth the revelations, that haply ye may be certain of the meeting with your Lord.” [Quran 13:2]
“Such as remember Allah, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! Thou createdst not this in vain. Glory be to Thee! Preserve us from the doom of Fire” [Quran 3:191]
Who is the Creator of People and Plants?
To those arrogant people who deny the existence of God, Allah questions them about His creatures. Who is the creator of sperm and plant? People or God the All Wise Creator?
“Have ye seen that which ye emit?
Do ye create it or are We the creator?” [Quran 56:58-59]
“Have ye seen that which ye cultivate?
Is it ye who foster it, or are We the Fosterer?” [Quran 56:63-64]
“Was it ye who made the tree thereof to grow, or were We the grower?” [Quran 56:72]
Can Men Create a Fly?
In another verse, Allah challenges others to create a fly if they could do it. Men may be could make robots from things that created by Allah. Yet, none could make a fly from nothing nor thing that could reproduce except Allah:
“…Lo! Those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from him. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!” [Quran 22:73]
There are many other Quran verses that describe the existence of God and God is the All Wise Creator.
http://islammyreligion.wordpress.com


--

Human beings have been on this earth for the last 400,000 years how come there was no god then but all of a sudden muhammad came up with allah being a god 1400 years ago? Human beings survived just fine the 390,000 years before that.

Islam is not a religion which started 1400 years ago, rather, its a religion from the first human being Adam. The same god all Muslims worship which all the prophets did before Mohammed...
A quote from Qur'an:
Ibrahim was not a Jew nor a Christian, but he was (an) upright (man), a Muslim, and he was not one of the polytheists) (Aal `Imran 3: 67).

41:44

Had We sent this as a Qur'an (in the language) other than Arabic, they would have said: "Why are not its verses explained in detail? What! (a Book) not in Arabic and (a Messenger an Arab?" Say: "It is a Guide and a Healing to those who believe; and for those who believe not, there is a deafness in their ears, and it is blindness in their (eyes): They are (as it were) being called from a place far distant!" 41:45 We certainly gave Moses the Book aforetime: but disputes arose therein. Had it not been for a Word that went forth before from thy Lord, (their differences) would have been settled between them: but they remained in suspicious disquieting doubt thereon.

[joboman24]

now you say it started with adam which the christians believe? so your beliefs in start of life is similar to Christianity. Now a reason why religion is bad. It is bad because religion breeeds extremism and extremism breeds terrorism which is going on in parts of the world right now. Unprovoked attacks. C'mon please don't show me a picture of the universe and history of it and a couple quotes from the prophet muhammad. If god really was there then he should show himself to us. And if you say that he doesn't need to because faith itself should be enough then this is the condition of delusion, ignorance, human conditioning since birth or a combination of all three.

[joboman24]

i am telling you religion is going to cause the end of humanity because of extremism which is the sad truth when if we based and lived life on common sense and logic we wouldn't have senseless killings everyday. And also why does islam allow you to marry multiple wives, make them cover their face outside of the house, provide them with less rights than a male? how can you possibily rationalize that?

[joboman24]

and if you tell me that the sharia law is perfect. then you are completely ignorant. You do understand how easy it is for a man to commit a crime on a woman and get away with it. And for example if a man doesn't like his wife for whatever reason he can call 3 witnessess who will testify based on fear or because they have a personal realtionship with a male who can completely lie and get the woman stoned to death. You think that is correct?

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Greeetings..

to ghareebah who has said he allah is the creator?

The first man on earth Adam (as) unto the final messenger, the righteous who follow them, those who believe God. This world has said so, this world wasn't created for no reason, but a reason, if that wasn't the case, we wouldn't or shouldn't be alive.

The "prophet" muhammad has said that.

Have you studied any religion? The prophet Muhammad (PBUH) spoke about prophet's who came before him, whom were only sent to nations. The Qur'aan speaks about prophet's before Muhammad (PBUH), they all believed in God.

And, Allaah only means 'the God' in arabic. In English we use 'God', and different languages it is different.

Why is it that we are blindly believing muhammad?

Blindly believing Muhammad (PBUH) in what exactly?

Just because he said allah is "god" why should be have "blind faith".

Blind faith? It is encouraged to seek knowledge. If you had ever read the Qur'aan you'd know the author of the book asks you to 'READ', (Chapter 96), if you have the slightest idea what your talking about, you wouldn't be asking such a question.

And you ask me why I don't believe in God? I don't believe in god because there is no evidence that there is a "god" except for the blind faith people put for no reason except for a book where allah is prophesized as a god. I can write a book also and say that I am god and write all these different ways to lead "life".

I simply asked you, just like you asked.

Where is Allaah prophesized as God? provide your evidence please.

You can simply stick to your believe of No God or either study Islaam, of which you've not the slightest knowledge of. It wouldn't hurt to study, would it?

The Qur'aan is meant to be a guidance for man, a way to live ones life

When "allah" comes down to earth and tells me that he is actually "god" then I will put my faith upon him.

Supposedly the God of Hindu's, Christian's, etc came down, how come you don't follow them?

Otherwise it is just another human being(muhammad) who had taken advantage of the people during when human beings were in crisis and made them blindly follow his path and it has been passed on from generation to generation. Human beings have been on this earth for the last 400,000 years how come there was no god then but all of a sudden muhammad came up with allah being a god 1400 years ago? Human beings survived just fine the 390,000 years before that.

Muhammad (PBUH) took advantage? Do you know what was happening during the time of the prophet (PBUH)?

Jesus, Noah, Moses, Adam, (PBUT) etc etc, came before the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH), they taught about God, did you know?
They came to teach about the Oneness of God, they told the nation they were upon to stop the evil acts they did and to do what's good for them, so no they weren't just fine.

To your third question you say no one who goes to paradise would want to come back to earth. You don't think 1 person out of the 100's of millions of muslims who have died over the past 100-1000's of years would want to come back to earth just for one second to tell us about paradise so we have extra faith and contemptness and relief and happiness about the after life and we aren't scared or nervous to die?

Yes, that is what the Qur'aan has already taught us. Paradise has been mentioned in the Qur'aan.

And to your final response I have read excerpts of the quran, the bible, and the bhagvat gita. They are all very similar in what they say about how to lead your life and any human being who has some form of intelligence could have written that based on common sense.

All prophet's came with a similar message, although, not all have followed their teachings fully. Some have given them higher rank, perhaps due to their piety, etc and so began to hold them in the same position as God allmighty, while none asked to be worshipped.

"And for every Ummah (a community or a nation) there is a Messenger; when their Messenger comes, the matter will be judged between them with justice, and they will not be wronged."[Al Qur'aan 10:47]

And you are saying humans have been killing each other and why aren't women and jewelery evil? Why should they be? Women are as evil/nonevil as men. And jewlery is something monetary and nonliving. If you want to consider it evil then fine that is up to you. How am I contradicting myself? Humans have been killing each other right? Just like extremists of your religion come to my country in India and kill 200+ innocent people in mumbai for what? Because allah tells them to do so because of the ongoing conflict between jammu kashmir? Is that what he says to kill innocent civilians? You are the one that is contradicting yourself and your beliefs.

The brother's point was that, the people are at error not the teacher. So regardless of Muslim or Non-muslim, your not perfect, though you can strive to do so, when taught so.

Your contradicting yourself by blaming 'thiest's' and stating they're the wrong ones, whereas, athiests are no angel's either, they also fight amongst themselves, because they're human. It's not right to speak without knowledge! But if you were to stick to the teachings accordinly, them you'd never be of the losers, who kill civillians and take lives unnecessarily.

Just coz some so called 'muslim's' do something does not mean, Islam teaches this, just because I did a wrong, doesn't mean my parents are to blame, i've my own choice once i'm mature enough to make my own decisions, some make silly decisions based on their lack of knowledge.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

and if you tell me that the sharia law is perfect. then you are completely ignorant. You do understand how easy it is for a man to commit a crime on a woman and get away with it. And for example if a man doesn't like his wife for whatever reason he can call 3 witnessess who will testify based on fear or because they have a personal realtionship with a male who can completely lie and get the woman stoned to death. You think that is correct?

How would you know about shariah? and no where in the world is shariah fully implemented.

Is not one ignorant who speaks without knowledge? If you dislike Islam, then why are you here?

If there was good in something, would you ignore it or accept it? simple question

[Pygoscelis]

Believe in God is the most important thing in faith. If someone does not believe that God exists then he is in deep astray.Does God exist? We have never seen God. We have never talked with God. That is why the Atheists believe God does not exist. It is just a fantasy or a made up thing!

Pretty much. But In the case of Gods, just like in the case of other non-falsifiable claims like faeries etc, we can not 100% state they don't exist. We can only state that we see no evidence or reason to believe they do exist. The burden is not on us to show something non-falsifiable doesn't exist (that is by definition impossible). It is on the claimant to prove it does.

After the people calmed down, the scholar said, “If you believe that the boat could not exist without its maker, then how could you believe the earth, sky, and its contents exist without its creator? Which is the most difficult to make? Making a boat or creating the earth, sky, and its contents?

Atheism makes no claim related to this. Atheism is the lack of belief in God(s). It if compatible with the universe always existing and having no begining. It is compatible with the universe being created by non-intelligent means (say a spin off from another universe). It is even compatible with intelligent design (just not by God(s)).

“So, though we cannot see the pain does not mean that the pain does not exist. So is the God. Just because we cannot see the God does not mean that God does not exist. Though we cannot see Him, but we can see His creations.” Said the scholar.

This goes to the root of non-falsifiability. It is true that because you can't see it doesn't mean it isn't there. But it doesn't mean it is there either. And using "creations of God" as proof that God exists is a non-starter. Calling them "Creations of Gods" assumes God exists. And you don't get anywhere by showing that we can't explain them either, because not knowing something doesn't mean God had to do it. God-of-the-gaps has been used to explain all sorts of things over the years but those gaps get smaller and smaller as our understanding and science grows. There is no shame in admitting "I DON'T KNOW".

The Earth where 8 billion people live has circumference 40,000 km. The circumference of the Sun is 4.3 million km. The Sun and its 8 planets along with 100 billion stars are in the Milky Way galaxy whose length is 100,000 light years away.
Milky Way is only a galaxy among thousands galaxies that form a Cluster. This cluster with thousands clusters form 1 Super Cluster. And thousands of Super Clusters form the Universe whose length is 30 billion light years away! Remember, the number 30 billion light years away only current estimation since the strongest telescope today only could reach 15 billion light years away.

Imagine if the distance between Earth and the Sun is 150 million km and passed by the light in just 8 minute, then the whole Universe passed by the light in 30 billion years. That is equal to 285 billion trillion km away. If a man could run 40 km/hour without stopping, he would pass the distance in 810,000 trillion years!

And given this do you then claim that God created all of this simply for us? Why all the empty space? Why all the other stars and planets? When looking at the tiny pale blue dot in our own solar system (never mind galaxy or universe) it is awfully hard for me to feel so self-important to think that it was all created for me and my species. Especially when pretty much all of it will kill me instantly if I go there. Even on my own planet I can not survive in many of its areas.

On the contrary, the Earth, Sun, Moon, Stars, and others always revolve for billions of years without single crash.

Um, no. Not really. The universe is not this harmonious safe place you are imagining it to be I'm afraid. In fact, check this out...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xaW4O...feature=fvwrel

[جوري]

And given this do you then claim that God created all of this simply for us? Why all the empty space? Why all the other stars and planets? When looking at the tiny pale blue dot in our own solar system (never mind galaxy or universe) it is awfully hard for me to feel so self-important to think that it was all created for me and my species. Especially when pretty much all of it will kill me instantly if I go there. Even on my own planet I can not survive in many of its areas.

I had unsubscribed from yet another worthless thread by another un-amusing redundant atheist but thought this was noteworthy.
If you had loads of money and wielded loads of power would you wanna live in a tiny ant farm nook or would you want a huge mansion?
btw this has been addressed before, up and including the importance or lack of importance of man kind. We're not the only creatures in existence.

not that I care by the way what you believe or don't I don't give a fig, just to showcase the consistent flaws in your logic!

best,

[CosmicPathos]

And you are saying humans have been killing each other and why aren't women and jewelery evil? Why should they be? Women are as evil/nonevil as men. And jewlery is something monetary and nonliving. If you want to consider it evil then fine that is up to you. How am I contradicting myself? Humans have been killing each other right? Just like extremists of your religion come to my country in India and kill 200+ innocent people in mumbai for what? Because allah tells them to do so because of the ongoing conflict between jammu kashmir? Is that what he says to kill innocent civilians? You are the one that is contradicting yourself and your beliefs.

Oooh the innocent angelic Indians! Do you even know your own history?

your country? Your Brahmans have been killing each other long before Ghanzni looted Delhi. Your Kings have been fighting and maiming each other for the last 5000 years. Ever read Mahabharata?

Your Northern Indo Aryans came to India 5000 or more years ago and wiped off many locals namely Dravidians and ran them off to the South. What about that?

Your Kings have been fighting with each during the times of Vedas and Upanishads. Your "democratic" state headed by the atheist Nehru has unlawfully taken over Kashmir without giving them the chance to decide for themselves who they want to join.

Your "democratic" nation killed hundreds of innocent Sikhs in Operation Blue Star in 1984. Oh so holy pious Hindustani (Ironically you take pride in the name given to you by Arabs!)! You did not even have a name for your nation before Arab traders descended upon you. And then you with pride sing "saaray jahaan say acha Hindustan hamaraa," a poem written by a Muslim philosopher Muhammad Iqbal????

Tis all struggle of mankind, be he atheist or religious. Will Atheist India give freedom to Kashmir? Will Atheist India let the formation of Khalistan?

[Galaxy]

Muslims=/=Islam and until you get that through your head then you'll actually learn more about Islam! Do you expect us to explain that actions of other Muslims?

[joboman24]

you realize again that your statement was utter crap. Did I ever say us Indians are innocent. I was born a bramhan but do you see me condoning anything that they did or do? No. I think it is disgusting in Hindu society in the way the system caste works for the top of the chain to the botooms (untouchables). Yes I realize India killed innocent Sikhs in Operation Blue Star and after that they decided to blow up Air India....(btw they were stashing weapons in the golden temple) again not justifiying it it was use of excessive force. And you do realize kashmir was always a part of India until the muslims decided to form their own country. It is very similar to the situation in the gaza strip. And who are you supporting there the palestines right? As am I supporting them against Israel. And would you like me to go on a laundry list about Pakistan? I didn't think so. No country is perfect over such a long period of time. Name one country please...yea that's what I thought. Why should India give freedom to kashmir when it was theirs all along? I believe to show some progress as humans both countries should have equal rights to Kashmir and show progress with peace and as humans in general. Has there been any terrorist attacks in Pakistan from Hindu extremists for Kashmir compared to numerous terrorist attacks in India? I didn't think so.

[جوري]

How do you feel about atheists killng more people than all the religions combined? No comment on that?

[joboman24]

can you back that up please with facts and not just a bs staement? thank you.
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

[joboman24]

yes I agree Hitler and a few other people.But you are always going to have crazy people on this earth whatt can you do? No atheist is perfect nor is any muslim perfect. You just try to live based on pure common sense and if you don't have that then you can't argue with stupid whether they're athiest or muslim. You see?

[جوري]

can you back that up please with facts and not just a bs staement? thank you.
"When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours."

It is inconsequential to me what you accept or reject, I haven't the time nor interest in your personal sob story!
As for backing up well simply do your homework on enver hoxha, mao zedong, lenin, saloth sar etc etc..
Millions of people at the hands of militant atheists but I guess when the quota gets past a number you can't count up to, you dismiss it?

best,

[joboman24]

You realize what I said in the previous post? I said you cannot argue with common sense regardless if a person is Atheist or religious. It has nothing to do with god or not. Common sense prevails and not whether someone who committed mass crimes whether he was atheist or not. All I am saying is some of these extremists kill each other not based on common sense but faith in their god that at which most times cannot be justified based on common sense. thats all

[joboman24]

I can also state the ethnic religious wars based in Somalia, Rwanda (hutu, tutsis millions died) and the ongoing wars between the sunnis, shiites and the kurds which has killed a significant amount of people.

[جوري]

You realize what I said in the previous post? I said you cannot argue with common sense regardless if a person is Atheist or religious. It has nothing to do with god or not. Common sense prevails and not whether someone who committed mass crimes whether he was atheist or not. All I am saying is some of these extremists kill each other not based on common sense but faith in their god that at which most times cannot be justified based on common sense. thats all

What you say is a great deal of drivel that again is inconsequential. The world doesn't run by pubertal ideals or utopia per joboman. So as to not waste your time and ours, it is perhaps best you picket your protests on a white poster from staples where the impact might gain you some fox minutes..

best,

[CosmicPathos]

you realize again that your statement was utter crap. Did I ever say us Indians are innocent. I was born a bramhan but do you see me condoning anything that they did or do? No. I think it is disgusting in Hindu society in the way the system caste works for the top of the chain to the botooms (untouchables). Yes I realize India killed innocent Sikhs in Operation Blue Star and after that they decided to blow up Air India....(btw they were stashing weapons in the golden temple) again not justifiying it it was use of excessive force. And you do realize kashmir was always a part of India until the muslims decided to form their own country. It is very similar to the situation in the gaza strip. And who are you supporting there the palestines right? As am I supporting them against Israel. And would you like me to go on a laundry list about Pakistan? I didn't think so. No country is perfect over such a long period of time. Name one country please...yea that's what I thought. Why should India give freedom to kashmir when it was theirs all along? I believe to show some progress as humans both countries should have equal rights to Kashmir and show progress with peace and as humans in general. Has there been any terrorist attacks in Pakistan from Hindu extremists for Kashmir compared to numerous terrorist attacks in India? I didn't think so.

by that logic, you'd claim that why should India give freedom to Pakistan when Pakistan was "theirs" all along. Who is theirs? As I've said, North Indians or Indo Aryans are not native to India, they migrated from Central Asia about 5000 years ago and brought havoc. If Tamils and Dravidians today start a movement to kick you North Indians for taking over their country 5000 years then what?

Sikhs have EVERY right to have their own country Khalistan. Kashmiris have every right to have their own country!

your country hates Pakistan, and the hate runs deep down. Pakistani cricket players were banned from playing for IPL for not other reason except that they were Pakistanis. I can keep on going and going. You wanted to drink tea in Lahore in 1965 right?

And then you come here, throw tantrums about Muslim extremists, this and that, while you do not look at people from your own race, your own caste, your own nation, your own religion or lack of religion killing others for worldly benefits.

You even have problem with atheists aka chinese! Whats up with the Agni-V missile that has Beijing in its range? Why are you so fearful of Atheist Chinese? Afterall atheists are nice and peaceful people, no?

[joboman24]

cosmic pathos the reality is the chinese have not used the missile they have on us. While the extremists would have already wiped out India given a chance. You say pakistan was theirs all along...the country where Hindu's and Muslims lived was called INDIA...do not forget that. It was like a religious group that rebeled away and wanted their own land like what is going on in sudan and south sudan. There is always some sense of fear when a country has a nuclear weapon regardless if they will use it or not because no matter how great the security there is always a chance of the bomb getting in the wrong person's hand. For example a few months ago in Pakistan they were carrying a nuclear missile in a truck/van with absolutely no security. You know what would have happened if the extremists found out and took over and secured the weapon while figuring out to launch it with the complex code? They would have launched it right towards India. There is every reason to throw a tantrum to talk down on extremists because they are often but not always delusional, misguided, and brainwashed based on what they are doing (jihad) will take them to paradise which just causes pain and suffering among the innocent civilians that are killed and the extremists thinking they will reach paradise. (Not saying they will or they won't....nobody living knows that's all...you maybe believe a certain way but do you really know? No you don't)

[joboman24]

You realize that Hindu's and Muslim's live in Kashmir and not only muslims? Now are you trying to say that Kashmir should be a country in itself for the Muslim people or for both hindu's and muslim's to peacefully coexist? If it's the latter then I agree but if it is the first part then you are completely wrong. It is not about religion here. I am not bashing religion. I don't give a crap if someone prays to allah, jesus, or rama krisha or whoever. All of them believe that the god they are praying in is the "REAL" god so if believing in religion makes you a better person then more power to you. But if religion causes you to have extremist views which cause harm to the general population then that is wrong.

[CosmicPathos]

cosmic pathos the reality is the chinese have not used the missile they have on us.

then why do you fear them so much? The fear is unfounded if they have never used it on your country, so may I say you guys are paranoid deluded?

[CosmicPathos]

You realize that Hindu's and Muslim's live in Kashmir and not only muslims? Now are you trying to say that Kashmir should be a country in itself for the Muslim people or for both hindu's and muslim's to peacefully coexist? If it's the latter then I agree but if it is the first part then you are completely wrong. It is not about religion here. I am not bashing religion. I don't give a crap if someone prays to allah, jesus, or rama krisha or whoever. All of them believe that the god they are praying in is the "REAL" god so if believing in religion makes you a better person then more power to you. But if religion causes you to have extremist views which cause harm to the general population then that is wrong.

I have no reason to believe that an atheist will not have such harmful views. I have been harmed by many atheist "friends" in life, back stabbed by them, and everything else. I have no reason to believe that atheism implies "niceness."

[Aprender]

All I am saying is some of these extremists kill each other not based on common sense but faith in their god that at which most times cannot be justified based on common sense. thats all

All I'm saying is that ruthless dictators kill innocent people that is not based on common sense but their faith in their own social and political ideology which most of the time cannot be justified based on common sense. That is all.

[joboman24]

I never said atheism implies "niceness". And to aprender give the leaders of terrorist organizations to lead your country and see how many people are slaughtered for being a different religion or faith. Look at the great saddam hussein, kadhafi, khamanei in Iran, Assad in Syria, Mubarak in Egypt, you want me to keep going on? Them being able to influence people based on their voice got them to lead the country (the hitlers and stalins) and they took advantage of that right. They never preached their nonbeliefs to the common people or do you think they would have gotten to the supreme power if they were atheist? They were just horrible human beings who happened to be atheists. There are also horrible people who happen to be religious. What I am saying is religion causes the "normal" people who wouldn't do something bad in the first place to use religion for his/her's religious prophecy.

[CosmicPathos]

What I am saying is religion causes the "normal" people who wouldn't do something bad in the first place to use religion for his/her's religious prophecy.

replace religion with a beautiful woman. replace religion with money. replace religion with ego. Then see what results you get.

you are beginning to sound like a troll.

troll alert.

[joboman24]

yes ego is bad for any human being. Money can be bad for human beings also and at times beautiful women can be bad for society if there are too many "perverts". Life should be based on your own personal moral impulse. that is all i am saying.

[Aprender]

Life should be based on your own personal moral impulse. that is all i am saying.

What if your own personal moral impulses are to rob, murder and rape people weaker than you all the time?

[CosmicPathos]

perverts

perverts? It is called evolutionary biology. What kind of a atheist you are? :S I know more about your creed than you do.

[joboman24]

What if your own personal moral impulses are to rob, murder and rape people weaker than you all the time?

Then you are obviously not all there in your brain? It would have nothing to do with atheism or theism but the fact that their brain scientifically was not correctly programmed which caused it to malfunction and do bad things that aren't what a normal human being does based on society.

[joboman24]

perverts? It is called evolutionary biology. What kind of a atheist you are? :S I know more about your creed than you do.

Hey you probably do. I am no expert. Only thing I believe in is that life is based on chance. You might get one hell of a chance being born to a successfull family with lots of money and 3 meals a day on the table. Or you could be born into a dirt poor family in the slums or karachi or mumbai and starve to death.

[Aprender]

Then you are obviously not all there in your brain? It would have nothing to do with atheism or theism but the fact that their brain scientifically was not correctly programmed which caused it to malfunction and do bad things that aren't what a normal human being does based on society.

How and who was responsible for scientifically programming that brain? What is a normal human being?

[Hulk]

The myth about atheism is that it makes sense.

[joboman24]

How and who was responsible for scientifically programming that brain? What is a normal human being?

No "person" was responsible for scientifically programming the brain. It is based on pure luck in terms of what human being you turn out to be in regards to your brain. A normal human being is what we consider moral as a whole not based on any religious books or studies but based purely on observation of your surroundings.

[joboman24]

The myth about atheism is that it makes sense.

the myth about religion is that it doesn't. And if it weren't for parents raising their kids in a certain religion whatever it may be the world would be full of atheists by now. Because during your adolescent growing process is when your brain absorbs everything and carries it over to adulthood. If you were programmed to be a killer as a kid you would be one hell of a murderer when you grow up. Just like most were programmed since adolsence to believe in a certain faith they are always going to stick to it regardless of human logic.

[جوري]

actually we're wired from birth to believe in God.. Perhaps you'd benefit doing some research before writing what say you?

[joboman24]

actually we're wired from birth to believe in God.. Perhaps you'd benefit doing some research before writing what say you?

then that is even worse. What if you let the next 100 million infants to believe in whatever they wanted and asked them when they turned let's say 18 years old hypothetically based on pure observation of life. No pressure to be this or that just what the hell they want to be. What do you think would happen? Personally I believe putting your own beliefs on your kids is a form of child abuse. Just like teaching your kids to be crook in life is child abuse because now you are rewiring their brain based on what you want them to be and not what they want to be.

[جوري]

then that is even worse. What if you let the next 100 million infants to believe in whatever they wanted and asked them when they turned let's say 18 years old hypothetically based on pure observation of life. No pressure to be this or that just what the hell they want to be. What do you think would happen? Personally I believe putting your own beliefs on your kids is a form of child abuse. Just like teaching your kids to be crook in life is child abuse because now you are rewiring their brain based on what you want them to be and not what they want to be.

What does that mean exactly? are you wielding dung as we go along?

[Aprender]

No "person" was responsible for scientifically programming the brain. It is based on pure luck in terms of what human being you turn out to be in regards to your brain. A normal human being is what we consider moral as a whole not based on any religious books or studies but based purely on observation of your surroundings.

So luck is responsible for scientifically programming the brain? What are the origins of luck? What do 'we' consider moral as a whole? So we all see the same things in our observations of our surroundings and they are all moral behaviors simply because we observed it? And since it's not subject to any scientific studies then isn't it based on our own personal perceptions of what is moral and what is not or is there some magical unwritten moral code that every society lives by and everyone will agree with no matter what?

[Hulk]

I apologise for my short comment that contributed little to the thread, sometimes my silliness get the better of me.

I must say though that I have no idea what the argument here is about. Joboman24, if you want to prove that theists are wrong then you should attack the core of the believe which is that the universe has a Creator. You can argue that people are raised from young to believe in a particular religion(and I agree) but that does little to nothing to prove theists wrong.

Personally, instead of trying to prove others wrong I would try to learn what and why they believe.

[joboman24]

So luck is responsible for scientifically programming the brain? What are the origins of luck? What do 'we' consider moral as a whole? So we all see the same things in our observations of our surroundings and they are all moral behaviors simply because we observed it? And since it's not subject to any scientific studies then isn't it based on our own personal perceptions of what is moral and what is not or is there some magical unwritten moral code that every society lives by and everyone will agree with no matter what?

a moral is what a human being has deemed as "good" based purely on his observations with no influence from anyone. For some that moral may be to follow islam and to others like me it would be to follow my own set morals that I have created by myself based on observation of life and surroundings. I don't need any god or prophet to tell me what is right or what is wrong. I deem what is what myself. I believe I am an individual soul with no strings attached to anything or anyone.

[joboman24]

[QUOTE=Hulk;1511958]I apologise for my short comment that contributed little to the thread, sometimes my silliness get the better of me.

I must say though that I have no idea what the argument here is about. Joboman24, if you want to prove that theists are wrong then you should attack the core of the believe which is that the universe has a Creator. You can argue that people are raised from young to believe in a particular religion(and I agree) but that does little to nothing to prove theists wrong.
hello Hulk I am a little here and a little there so I apologize for that. Yes I personally believe that the earth did not have a creator. The fact is that energy cannot be created nor destroyed so we have had energy for infinite amount of time in this universe which due to whatever reason exploded in such a way it shot planets and stars all across the universe. My personal view is innocent until proven guilty. I cannot believe in something or someone until there is proof that is all. There are people who believe the world is going to end in december 21, 2012 why should I believe them unless there is some sort of factual or scientific backing?

[joboman24]

So luck is responsible for scientifically programming the brain? What are the origins of luck? What do 'we' consider moral as a whole? So we all see the same things in our observations of our surroundings and they are all moral behaviors simply because we observed it? And since it's not subject to any scientific studies then isn't it based on our own personal perceptions of what is moral and what is not or is there some magical unwritten moral code that every society lives by and everyone will agree with no matter what?

There is no origin to luck. Luck has been and will be for infinite. What we consider "moral" as a whole is what as an individual entity we deem to be for the betterment of the people and the human raise. Moral behaviors are based on trial and error of surroundings. You hear about Bernie Madoff ponzi scheming people out of 100's of millions of dollars and causing so much pain to the victims. You realize that it is not the correct way to live life by hurting people. A society moral code is based on real life experiences over 10's of thousands of years of trial and error which is created into western law. During the middle ages the law was what most of us would consider barbaric. Based on trial and error law has gotten to a point where it was much better than it was back in the day and it will continue to get better. Constitutional western law is not perfect by any means but it will continue to improve over time. Now sharia law for example is what one or a few people ( I am not sure if other people other than muhammad wrote about allah so I apologize for that). Now I would tend to think that if you asked a random would they like to follow a law that one or a few people created a few thousand years ago or follow a law that has gone through trials and tribulations over time over 1000's of years by 1000's of people to make it "fair" deemed on observations of life and rationality wouldn't they go with the second one.?

[joboman24]

What does that mean exactly? are you wielding dung as we go along?

it is just a hypothetical question I asked and was just curious for response. that is all.

[joboman24]

it means that if infants werent conditioned to believe in a specific religion since birth would they still believe in religion when they turn 18 years old if they weren't conditioned to believe in religion based on observation of life, luck, bad and good times in their life or seriously getting screwed over for doing absolutely nothing wrong in life?

[جوري]

it is just a hypothetical question I asked and was just curious for response. that is all.

I didn't see questions marks. I saw a statement of assertion, I'd like for you to substantiate it.

best,

[Al-bint]

Why is it that we are blindly believing Muhammad (s.a.w)?

Who said we follow anyone blindly? In Islam you are supposed to verify whatever to hear prior to blindly believing in it. As for me, I have tried reading the Qur'an. verified what I read and then started practicing. Seeking knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim.

And you ask me why I don't believe in God? I don't believe in god because there is no evidence that there is a "god" except for the blind faith people put for no reason except for a book where allah is prophesized as a god.

Then how did you come into existence? you dont believe in God but you believe in science? the science that pretty much in every decade takes a U-turn? you believe everything came into existnce b'coz of big bang? but where did that premeival mass come from? you believe in books written by Oparin & Haldein where they write about their experiments and believe them but refuse to read the Qur'an and ponder over it?

Before asking such questions I would suggest you go through the Qur'an. Once you do that (with understanding) I strongly believe that these questions of yours will appear meaningless to you!

Human beings have been on this earth for the last 400,000 years how come there was no god then but all of a sudden Muhammad (s.a.w) came up with Allah being a god 1400 years ago?

Islam Has been there since the advent of Adam (p.b.u.h). There have been more than 1 lack Prophets who walked the face of the earth and Muhammad (s.a.w) is the last one among them! Jesus (p.b.u.h) was also a Prophet who taught Islaam, so did Moses (p.b.u.h)!

Humans have been killing each other right? Just like extremists of your religion come to my country in India and kill 200+ innocent people in mumbai for what? Because allah tells them to do so because of the ongoing conflict between jammu kashmir?

What do you know about Jammu & Kashmir? Is it just what media tells you? do you know the actual condition? do you know about the condition of Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other places? if you actually knew you would realize that Muslims are the victims not the other way round.

you talk about proof for everything right? so what proof do you have that whatever happened in Mumbai was done by Muslims? Well I have a proof for the contrary!

In Islam killing a single innocent soul is considered as if you have killed the whole of humanity! so whoever those people are, they can't be Muslims! Even if there are killings happening in Kashmir, 1000 innocents killed in kashmir still do not validate killing even a single innocent in Mumbai! these are all the anti-Islamic propagandas. Media plays the wizard and everyone falls for it's tricks.

the crux is, whatever you hear or read, verify it brother. VERIFY! that's it! By verifying I don't mean you read another book written by some-one against religion to support the 1st one you read! Search for facts.

May Allah make your quest easy for you and may you finally find the truth!

Wasalaam!

[Al-bint]

ah forget it im done posting here no point arguing with ignorance. goodbye.

ever tried reasoning before? it needs patience. If you have a point I am all ears!

[White Rose]

Only thing I believe in is that life is based on chance. You might get one hell of a chance being born to a successfull family with lots of money and 3 meals a day on the table. Or you could be born into a dirt poor family in the slums or karachi or mumbai and starve to death.

You know by that logic, it would be very difficult to strive in this hopeless world. If I am lazy, I can just say, "by this logic" that since I have such a bad luck, I should not be doing anything.

Actually, we are brainwashed with this luck logic by this world. People around us, our family, peers, and media drive us to that point that where start to doubt ourselves. We start to believe that money and richness is everything and we start to lose the concept of defying them. People who have strong faith will realize the truth and fight against the rules create to brainwash society.

[Pygoscelis]

LOL Accusations that 'atheists are not nice', and accusations that somebody else is trolling, all from the guy who publicly declared his desire for all atheists to die. Rich. :shade:

[Pygoscelis]

What kind of a atheist you are? :S I know more about your creed than you do.

What creed is he? Evidently you don't know what atheism is and yet you hate it so. Atheism is not a creed, religion, or even world view. It is just the lack of one belief. You can be atheist and believe creation, the spiritual, disbelieve in evolution as the origin of man (I lean that way), etc. There are no atheist prophets or holy texts. Don't confuse supporters of Dawkins or Hitchens with atheists at large. That would be like saying all theists are hindus (and that there are no muslims, jews, christians, etc).

[Pygoscelis]

actually we're wired from birth to believe in God.. Perhaps you'd benefit doing some research before writing what say you?

She's right... sort of. We are wired from birth to seek patterns and to imply agency. It is why you talk to your toaster and think clouds look like things. We are also wired to trust in a higher power as chidlren, a higher power known as "mommy". These factors combine to be part of what drives the impulse towards religious belief. Well that plus the social programming of having it drilled into you by parents and society. Both are cogent factors.

[Perseveranze]

a moral is what a human being has deemed as "good" based purely on his observations with no influence from anyone. For some that moral may be to follow islam and to others like me it would be to follow my own set morals that I have created by myself based on observation of life and surroundings. I don't need any god or prophet to tell me what is right or what is wrong. I deem what is what myself. I believe I am an individual soul with no strings attached to anything or anyone.

So you respect the morals of the people in germany ww2, when it was morally right to massacre and extinct Jewish people?

There is no morals through self observation; morals are only defined by God.

[جوري]

She's right... sort of. We are wired from birth to seek patterns and to imply agency. It is why you talk to your toaster and think clouds look like things. We are also wired to trust in a higher power as chidlren, a higher power known as "mommy". These factors combine to be part of what drives the impulse towards religious belief. Well that plus the social programming of having it drilled into you by parents and society. Both are cogent factors.

I'd be interested in seeing your spin on the original research in some esteemed journal..

best,

[جوري]

all from the guy who publicly declared his desire for all atheists to die.

All atheists are going to die.. unless of course the Japanese come up with something .. maybe they can bottle your essence and use it to disperse a crowd :D

best,

[joboman24]

You know by that logic, it would be very difficult to strive in this hopeless world. If I am lazy, I can just say, "by this logic" that since I have such a bad luck, I should not be doing anything.

Actually, we are brainwashed with this luck logic by this world. People around us, our family, peers, and media drive us to that point that where start to doubt ourselves. We start to believe that money and richness is everything and we start to lose the concept of defying them. People who have strong faith will realize the truth and fight against the rules create to brainwash society.

i wasn't planning on posting again but some of the stupidity of logic here seems to amaze me. Yes if you are lazy you could say bad luck about it and not do anything about it but you are going to lead a not so fun life. You are saying money and richness is everything for atheists. Well it could be a small part of it just like any other religious human being's desire to run a successfull business and be wealthy. But the number one that is everything for me is CONTEMPTNESS. If I have peace and contempt within myself then I have led one hell of a life. You are saying the society of rules is what has brainwashed me. And I could say the society of religion has clearly brainwashed you. At least society can make some factual claims and back it up with legitimate proof. Can religion do that? No it cannot. It is based on a book that could have been written by anyone who had a thinking and working brain and who wanted to go down in history books. It is quite possible Warren Jeffs, the polygamist leader will become a God in a few hundred years. He already is a prophet halfway there :statisfie

[جوري]

Can religion do that? No it cannot.

you're so apt at posing and answering your own Q's..Is there a point to you being here?
btw what happened to the list of Q's I posed for your yesterday? miraculously disappeared I guess no one likes to see an atheist sweat...

best,

[M.I.A.]

i am an atheist. I was born and brought up as a hindu. Why do we as human beings have so much faith in god whether it's allah, krishna, or jesus. Just because someone tells us and wrote in a book that there is a god why should be have in discriminant faith on a specific god and why do we kill each other about our different beliefs or being a "nonbeliever"? Why do we not get any messages from the people who have passed on in the afterlife so to tell us that there "actually" is a paradise? Why are we conditioned since birth to believe in a specific religion and will go to the ends of the earth's to protect it?

usually the people who write those books are those closest to god.

imagine stephen hawking writing a book on physics.. he knows what he's talking about.
people spend a lot of years in university and a career and are still not able to fully grasp his understanding or are on his level.

to the laymen its all gibberish.


i think religion is very similar, except that gravity can be proofed.

maybe god can be proofed also, but those people are rarer than hawkings.

sure even the most rudimentary scientist knows that the universe is a complex system of laws which all things adhere to, in theory at least.. they do not attribute it to god though..

maybe they have also seen the world as you have seen it.. believing in god is harder than believing in science.
but behind the people and the chaos there is still something.. that system of laws.. and if you cant believe in the people, what else can you believe in?

we all walk our paths for as long as needed. i cant even figure out how iv interacted with all the people iv met. what iv brought to there lives or them mine.

i guess religion is put in place to make sure we make the least mischief on our own little paths.
maybe that is the difference between believers and non believers.. dont beat yourself up over it though.

there is no compulsion in religion, things are never fully in our control no matter how much of a swat we become. that is certainty of god in uncertainty of action..

im glad you think war is not the answer though, exchanging ideas to establish some common ground and common sense goes a lot further in civilised society..

but i guess that is the problem with those societies.. in some there are the oppressed without voices and in some there are the ignorant with voices.

depends on who you choose to lead i guess.
and what endearing qualities you chose them for.

[joboman24]

Who said we follow anyone blindly? In Islam you are supposed to verify whatever to hear prior to blindly believing in it. As for me, I have tried reading the Qur'an. verified what I read and then started practicing. Seeking knowledge is an obligation on every Muslim.

You have proof for the contrary? Let's see we have clear evidence that all the shooters were from the LET organization. We know 100% who masterminded this. We clearly know every single shooter's identitity from the shooting. I haven't read oparen and harin but what I believe in is something that can be backed up based on facts and not pure "myths". Primeval mass? You mean what was there before something? And how did nothing become into something? Well we are not quite sure yet as to why but we do know one thing. That energy cannot be created or destroyed and has been there for "infinity". Some of us human beings cannot comprehend the idea of infinity so we take the easy way out and say that there is a "god" who created the universe yada yada yada. We want the easy answer be close minded and not try to give a **** about another point of view which could be a much more plausible possibility for the creation of life. And are you really going to go into the JMK politics? Tell me in the last decade how many "terrorist" attacks have been planted against Indians and how many "terrorist" attacks if any India has committed against the country of Pakistan in Pakistan. Thank you.


Then how did you come into existence? you dont believe in God but you believe in science? the science that pretty much in every decade takes a U-turn? you believe everything came into existnce b'coz of big bang? but where did that premeival mass come from? you believe in books written by Oparin & Haldein where they write about their experiments and believe them but refuse to read the Qur'an and ponder over it?

Before asking such questions I would suggest you go through the Qur'an. Once you do that (with understanding) I strongly believe that these questions of yours will appear meaningless to you!



Islam Has been there since the advent of Adam (p.b.u.h). There have been more than 1 lack Prophets who walked the face of the earth and Muhammad (s.a.w) is the last one among them! Jesus (p.b.u.h) was also a Prophet who taught Islaam, so did Moses (p.b.u.h)!




What do you know about Jammu & Kashmir? Is it just what media tells you? do you know the actual condition? do you know about the condition of Muslims in Palestine, Afghanistan, Pakistan and other places? if you actually knew you would realize that Muslims are the victims not the other way round.

you talk about proof for everything right? so what proof do you have that whatever happened in Mumbai was done by Muslims? Well I have a proof for the contrary!

In Islam killing a single innocent soul is considered as if you have killed the whole of humanity! so whoever those people are, they can't be Muslims! Even if there are killings happening in Kashmir, 1000 innocents killed in kashmir still do not validate killing even a single innocent in Mumbai! these are all the anti-Islamic propagandas. Media plays the wizard and everyone falls for it's tricks.

the crux is, whatever you hear or read, verify it brother. VERIFY! that's it! By verifying I don't mean you read another book written by some-one against religion to support the 1st one you read! Search for facts.

May Allah make your quest easy for you and may you finally find the truth!

[joboman24]

i apologize for the quotes all over the place. What questions did you ask me? Post em here again and I will answer them.

[جوري]

excerpts from last night's post a direct reply to one of your numerous loggerheaic posts.

What logic do you employ or have employed?
What is the origin of life? do you have solid scientific evidence that doesn't loan itself to fairy tales albeit of a different form?
what came first the chicken or the egg? and can you carry us through that process to complex noetic beings from unicellular to multicellular x the number of species in existence and those that existed using full biochemical and physiological processes again logically without resorting to other forms of fairy tales or referencing me to a website whose logic you can't weave into the fabric of what you write with such bravado.
you're already starting with a double negative. You've neither 'logically' proven that there's no God nor provided a scientific logical and demonstrable truth to the world you find yourself in. Being a dynamo of a hyperbole unfortunately doesn't count as logic!

best

[joboman24]

M.I.A the difference between science and religion is that there is foolproof backing to it based on math and other areas. There is no backing to relgion except "somebody said so". Now I am not saying do not listen to anything the quran says. There may be a lot of things in that book that could be used to the betterment of society and the human race. But believing that he is GOD who created the universe when all he is a human being. Why does god have to be in a human form? Couldn't he have been a snake, dog, or a space alien? We are a microscopic fragment of this universe (the earth, even more so human beings) in the big picture we are absolutely meaningless to a degree. People have gone through hard times in history and have tried to find peace and comfort as some sort of a comfort blanket. Just like drug users find comfort and bliss in heroin you find it in religion. Just because he was smart enough to write a book about "morals" of society doesn't make him a prophet to "God". You think if God really wanted everyone to believe in him they would actually give us a sign. And religious people argue there is a time and a place where god will show himself or he wants you to repent him and wait for him in the afterlife.. But that is just an illogical cop out based on delusional rationalization.

[جوري]

difference between science and religion is that there is foolproof backing to it based on math and other areas

That is incorrect. Nothing in science is 100% as such we never even accept a theory we can reject it or fail to reject it & tighten our confidence interval with numbers so far off from absolution! & that is how science works! Hows about you actually enroll in some epidemiology and statistics classes before you open that bazoo with utter nonsense? Science is forever self-correcting and all of science including math is borne of our imagination from observable phenomenon which we as humans decide the baseline which again is an imaginary line that we agree upon and by which things are compared and measured .. a different place in space and time will have a different set of values.

[marwen]

joboman24 can I ask you a question, just for the sake of knowing another point of view? How do you explain the existence of this universe ?

[joboman24]

[QUOTE=لميس;1512135]excerpts from last night's post a direct reply to one of your numerous loggerheaic posts.

What logic do you employ or have employed?
What is the origin of life? do you have solid scientific evidence that doesn't loan itself to fairy tales albeit of a different form?
what came first the chicken or the egg? and can you carry us through that process to complex noetic beings from unicellular to multicellular x the number of species in existence and those that existed using full biochemical and physiological processes again logically without resorting to other forms of fairy tales or referencing me to a website whose logic you can't weave into the fabric of what you write with such bravado.
you're already starting with a double negative. You've neither 'logically' proven that there's no God nor provided a scientific logical and demonstrable truth to the world you find yourself in. Being a dynamo of a hyperbole unfortunately doesn't count as logic!

I will put it simply. Logic for me is based on human instinct within myself on what I as an individual entity base right from wrong from observation of nature. This is exactly what your muhammad has done although his views on life I don't agree with everything he has done a fairly average job of writing about immorals and morals. And just because we still haven't figured out what came first the chicken or the egg we have to say that there must be a God? Clearly not. We have been a very shortlived species for the last 400,000 years and our human brain has developed faster than any other animals brain in that time frame. You would think if society survives for say another theoritically 4 billion years until the sun runs out. (very likely we won't due to natural calamities or nuclear weapons or a number of different ways). You would think we would know a hell of a lot more about life then we do in the last 400,000 years. And even if there isn't "solid" evidence how life originated although with scientific backing we have learned that has happened through some form of evolution. And don't you think it is irrelevant asking me about molecular questions? (I am not a scientist although you could talk to one he may give you more answers than me). But it is a hell of a lot more evidence than "religion". In fact it is infinite times as "solid" evidence. Because religion has 0% evidence which anything more than 0% is inifinity.

[joboman24]

That is incorrect. Nothing in science is 100% as such we never even accept a theory we can reject it or fail to reject it & tighten our confidence interval with numbers so far off from absolution! & that is how science works! Hows about you actually enroll in some epidemiology and statistics classes before you open that bazoo with utter nonsense? Science is forever self-correcting and all of science including math is borne of our imagination from observable phenomenon which we as humans decide the baseline which again is an imaginary line that we agree upon and by which things are compared and measured .. a different place in space and time will have a different set of values.

Orly math is imagination? Then why do we build buildings based purely on math(geometry)? And why do al qaeda and taliban terrorists build bombs based on science? You think they could still build IED's without science and math?

[جوري]

I will put it simply. Logic for me is based on human instinct within myself on what I as an individual entity base right from wrong from observation of nature.

That is NOT logic, it's a personal opinion, and an opinion is subject to many things including drugs & alcohol which alter the preception of reality!

This is exactly what your muhammad has done although his views on life I don't agree with everything he has done a fairly average job of writing about immorals and morals.

That's not what Muhammad P has done. Someone who isn't read in a subject shouldn't gauge it, what do you think? just so you wouldn't make an ass out of yourself!

And just because we still haven't figured out what came first the chicken or the egg we have to say that there must be a God?

If you haven't figured it out then what are you doing here speaking of science and logic?

Clearly not. We have been a very shortlived species for the last 400,000 years and our human brain has developed faster than any other animals brain in that time frame.

What exactly does this mean to you?

You would think if society survives for say another theoritically 4 billion years until the sun runs out.

And your point is?

(very likely we won't due to natural calamities or nuclear weapons or a number of different ways). You would think we would know a hell of a lot more about life then we do in the last 400,000 years. And even if there isn't "solid" evidence how life originated although with scientific backing we have learned that has happened through some form of evolution.

Again, if you don't know what happened then what are you doing here speaking of science or logic? 'Evolution' doesn't answer the question of origin or complex human beings. We'd actually have a better chance at survival being cockroaches or sea turtles!

And don't you think it is irrelevant asking me about molecular questions? (I am not a scientist although you could talk to one he may give you more answers than me).

It is very relevant. You've come here with the bravado with a gorilla beating extra hard on its chest to speak of logic and science, all of a sudden you're not a scientist or a logician? you're not even read in the subjects you wish to argue against.. that's funny to say the least.

But it is a hell of a lot more evidence than "religion". In fact it is infinite times as "solid" evidence. Because religion has 0% evidence which anything more than 0% is inifinity.

How so? assertion of something doesn't a logical argument make..

best,

[joboman24]

joboman24 can I ask you a question, just for the sake of knowing another point of view? How do you explain the existence of this universe ?

Hello Marwin thank you for having an open mind to ask me a question. To me the existence of the universe is based on energy. Energy has always been in this so called "universe. It is 100% known for a fact cannot be rebuted or debunked that energy can neither be created or destroyed. It has been for infinite. And for some reason (which we cannot wholly claim for a fact why) all the energy and matter (which also cannoted be created nor destroyed) exploded sending all different masses to different parts of the universe based on pure randomness, science, and math. (angle of burst, explosion intensity etc etc). Two critical needs for life are to create a membrane, which defines a boundary that can contain genetic material, and to replicate it is relatively easy to create a membrane from fatty acids that could have arisen in conditions that mimic early Earth; fatty acids, mixed in water with a little salt, readily create closed structures called vesicles. We are starting to understand a little bit more about the origins but we are still not there yet as we are still evolving in technology and the human mind.

[جوري]

Orly math is imagination? Then why do we build buildings based purely on math(geometry)? And why do al qaeda and taliban terrorists build bombs based on science? You think they could still build IED's without science and math?

What does this mean exactly? I think it is time you enrolled in some basic vocational training to foster self-esteem. You're not making any sense..
here's a tissue to wipe that drivel..

best

[جوري]

eh it is a waste of time to argue with you. You can go deep deep into a question and question the reality or non reality of it. Is 1+1 really 2? How can you be so certain? All I know is as a human being is that I will believe it when I see it. Not because somebody drew a face of a bearded guy and said he is god. You people kill others if someone draws a picture of the prophet muhammad or allah in a demeaning way. Why doesn't muhammad or allah use their magical powers and strike fear upon the sinful soul

I take it you have nothing of substance to impart as usual & prefer the quick meaningless carpet bombing attacks and fast withdraw method of cowards?

ok great just so we know..

best,

[joboman24]

You know what? I don't even need to believe in anything at all for that matter since science isn't 100% proved right? Fine I won't believe in anything I am an atheist who believes in absolutely nothing because there isn't strong evidence to say for sure anything about life including religion. Fair enough? Now why should I believe in allah care to explain?

[joboman24]

[QUOTE=لميس;1512147]

I take it you have nothing of substance to impart as usual & prefer the quick meaningless carpet bombing attacks and fast withdraw method of cowards?

answer my question. Why does Allah not come down and take their sinful souls to hell? Why does he let killers get away with it. Scammers scam people out of their money and they live one hell of a life. Now please don't start with the afterlife please.............where they would be sinned. That is based on pure ignorance.

[Muhammad]

Let us try to focus on the points being made rather than attack with insults, otherwise posts may be deleted or the thread closed.

[جوري]

You know what? I don't even need to believe in anything at all for that matter since science isn't 100% proved right? Fine I won't believe in anything I am an atheist who believes in absolutely nothing because there isn't strong evidence to say for sure anything about life including religion. Fair enough? Now why should I believe in allah care to explain?

I am sorry did anyone give you the impression that they care what you believe or don't? Someone pinch me, isn't this an Islamic forum? did you not come here of your own accord or did the taliban stick a gun to your temple and a keyboard in your face?

:haha: You're funny with a fantastic sense of grandiosity if I ever encountered it.

[joboman24]

well I am posting in the compartive-religion of the forum do I not have a right?

[جوري]

answer my question. Why does Allah not come down and take their sinful souls to hell? Why does he let killers get away with it. Scammers scam people out of their money and they live one hell of a life. Now please don't start with the afterlife please.............where they would be sinned. That is based on pure ignorance.

Why are you in the habit of posing and answering your own Q's? Furthermore why would I gauge a philosophical debate with someone who has no foundation whatsoever? Is there a point to discuss 21-hydroxylase deficiency with someone who doesn't even believe there is any relation between it and cholesterol?
I don't humor simpletons and sophomoric queries of greenhorns!

best

[جوري]

well I am posting in the compartive-religion of the forum do I not have a right?

With what exactly? You're under some sort of impression that we have to accommodate folly simply because you placed it in question form?
You're read in absolutely nothing, neither science nor religion so what exactly would you like to discuss especially when you're so apt at posing and answering your own Q's..
If you've all the answers already then you're wasting your time and ours and furthermore nothing about what you write smells of sincerity as such you'll only get one kind of response as is. One that focuses on your numerous flaws. If you enjoy that type of banter then by all means however this is a serious forum for adults not a playground for dropouts!

best,

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

eh it is a waste of time to argue with you. You can go deep deep into a question and question the reality or non reality of it. Is 1+1 really 2? How can you be so certain? All I know is as a human being is that I will believe it when I see it. Not because somebody drew a face of a bearded guy and said he is god. You people kill others if someone draws a picture of the prophet muhammad or allah in a demeaning way. Why doesn't muhammad or allah use their magical powers and strike fear upon the sinful soul

Oh come on, 1+1? seriously?

For your information, we do NOT draw pictures of a bearded guys and worship him or call him GOD!

Stop making useless points about how some so called extremists kill others, i repeat THIS IS NOT ISLAAM! Why do you keep repeating yourself, when you yourself said you don't care of one's belief, you also said your not hear to bash, why do you continue to speak without knowledge?

[Muhammad]

Joboman,

answer my question. Why does Allah not come down and take their sinful souls to hell? Why does he let killers get away with it. Scammers scam people out of their money and they live one hell of a life. Now please don't start with the afterlife please.............where they would be sinned. That is based on pure ignorance.

If you are willing to accept there is a God, why would you not accept belief in the afterlife? Your questions are answered by the fact that this life is a test, and in the afterlife everyone will receive justice. If God revealed Himself and removed all the evil now, there would be no test and no point in us being on earth. We might as well be living in heaven.

[joboman24]

[QUOTE=لميس;1512153]
Why are you in the habit of posing and answering your own Q's? Furthermore why would I gauge a philosophical debate with someone who has no foundation whatsoever? Is there a point to discuss 21-hydroxylase deficiency with someone who doesn't even believe there is any relation between it and cholesterol?
I don't humor simpletons and sophomoric queries of greenhorns!

hahaha now you do not want to engage in a philosophical debate. I am sure you don't because you don't believe in Philosophy because it tries to find the answer based on reason and not myth.

[joboman24]

[QUOTE=Ğħαrєєвαħ;1512157]

Oh come on, 1+1? seriously?

For your information, we do NOT draw pictures of a bearded guys and worship him or call him GOD!

I am not here to bash any religion. But if attacks are made against my country based on non factual evidence. Of course I will respond defending my country.

[joboman24]

A lot more hindus are killed by muslims based on religious intolerance. We both know that.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

[QUOTE=joboman24;1512149]

I take it you have nothing of substance to impart as usual & prefer the quick meaningless carpet bombing attacks and fast withdraw method of cowards?

answer my question. Why does Allah not come down and take their sinful souls to hell? Why does he let killers get away with it. Scammers scam people out of their money and they live one hell of a life. Now please don't start with the afterlife please.............where they would be sinned. That is based on pure ignorance.

The people go to hell coz they deserve it just like a criminal deserves to be given a punishment, however there are ways to prevent this from happening.

Why does one who is powerful and able to do anything need to come down and become a weak human?

He doesn't let killers get away with it, READ THE Qur'aan! Humans have a free will, either you follow your own vain desires or live life as the creator has commanded so, one who know's better than you since he created you.

[marwen]

Hello Marwin thank you for having an open mind to ask me a question. To me the existence of the universe is based on energy. Energy has always been in this so called "universe. It is 100% known for a fact cannot be rebuted or debunked that energy can neither be created or destroyed. It has been for infinite. And for some reason (which we cannot wholly claim for a fact why) all the energy and matter (which also cannoted be created nor destroyed) exploded sending all different masses to different parts of the universe based on pure randomness, science, and math. (angle of burst, explosion intensity etc etc). Two critical needs for life are to create a membrane, which defines a boundary that can contain genetic material, and to replicate it is relatively easy to create a membrane from fatty acids that could have arisen in conditions that mimic early Earth; fatty acids, mixed in water with a little salt, readily create closed structures called vesicles. We are starting to understand a little bit more about the origins but we are still not there yet as we are still evolving in technology and the human mind.

Thank you for your reply. That's very interesting. You seem to like explaining all things with science and logic, and I respect that.

But I still have another question, was there only energy in the beginning of the universe ? (if I understood you correctly) because it seems to me not so logical that energy was always existing without a beginning, I mean what was before energy ? what made it ? was it infinite in the past and unchanged in quantity, I think human mind can't percept this, or imagine it at least.
But if we suppose energy was always there, what made it change it's form to explode and produce matter ? was it autonomous energy that can change its state without any other factor, was it a conscious energy, if we look at the design of matter it produced ?
Was there something else before energy, or with energy ? can you explain more please?

[Muhammad]

Joboman, please focus on one issue at a time. Firing multiple questions that are irrelevant to the topic is the tactic of people who are simply here to attack Islam. If that is the case, you will lose your opportunity to ask questions.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

[QUOTE=joboman24;1512161]

Oh come on, 1+1? seriously?

For your information, we do NOT draw pictures of a bearded guys and worship him or call him GOD!

I am not here to bash any religion. But if attacks are made against my country based on non factual evidence. Of course I will respond defending my country.

Didn't bash your country or anything. But what the claims your making are also hugely lacking evidence! Be consistant, please.

[joboman24]

Joboman,
If you are willing to accept there is a God, why would you not accept belief in the afterlife? Your questions are answered by the fact that this life is a test, and in the afterlife everyone will receive justice. If God revealed Himself and removed all the evil now, there would be no test and no point in us being on earth. We might as well be living in heaven.

but that is the type of thinking muhmmad that is based on ignorance. I am not willing to accept god. I will accept god the day he comes flying down across the heavens and shows himself to me. Until then nope. The "prophet" muhammad in my opinion has created a cop out to justify something neither himself nor anyone will ever no about and can ever argue because once you die you can't speak. So we find a "supernatural" way to answer these questions that cannot be answered.

[joboman24]

[QUOTE=Ğħαrєєвαħ;1512167]

Didn't bash your country or anything. But what the claims your making are also hugely lacking evidence! Be consistant, please.

Are you serious? We can get it down to a single number going back to legal cases how many religious killings happened against hindus compared to hindus to muslims. Now don't start another law is flawed bs please.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

but that is the type of thinking muhmmad that is based on ignorance. I am not willing to accept god. I will accept god the day he comes flying down across the heavens and shows himself to me. Until then nope. The "prophet" muhammad in my opinion has created a cop out to justify something neither himself nor anyone will ever no about and can ever argue because once you die you can't speak. So we find a "supernatural" way to answer these questions that cannot be answered.

Frankly, your choice.

I repeat, God of Hindu's, Christians and so on supposedly came down, why are you then an athiest?

[جوري]

but that is the type of thinking muhmmad that is based on ignorance

No one has displayed more ignorance on this thread that you. As stated prior making an assertion doesn't a logical argument make, nor is having a guffaw when at a loss for words.

best,

[Muhammad]

but that is the type of thinking muhmmad that is based on ignorance. I am not willing to accept god. I will accept god the day he comes flying down across the heavens and shows himself to me. Until then nope. The "prophet" muhammad in my opinion has created a cop out to justify something neither himself nor anyone will ever no about and can ever argue because once you die you can't speak. So we find a "supernatural" way to answer these questions that cannot be answered.

But God is considered "supernatural" in the first place. You are not allowing the question to be answered because you have selectively chosen which supernatural thing could exist and which could not.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

[QUOTE=joboman24;1512169]

Are you serious? We can get it down to a single number going back to legal cases how many religious killings happened against hindus compared to hindus to muslims. Now don't start another law is flawed bs please.

I am not speaking about how many muslims or hindu's died, the point i was making is that you stated the highlighted

But if attacks are made against my country based on non factual evidence. Of course I will respond defending my country.

But then your making claims like in the post below which i assumes been deleted.

Originally Posted by joboman24 eh it is a waste of time to argue with you. You can go deep deep into a question and question the reality or non reality of it. Is 1+1 really 2? How can you be so certain? All I know is as a human being is that I will believe it when I see it. Not because somebody drew a face of a bearded guy and said he is god. You people kill others if someone draws a picture of the prophet muhammad or allah in a demeaning way. Why doesn't muhammad or allah use their magical powers and strike fear upon the sinful soul

[CosmicPathos]

where did Hindus, Hanuman monkeys, Ganesh Elephants and Cow Girls come in from in a discussion on "logic and science?" Are you an atheist or a Hindu? you seem to be very supportive of your Hindu brethren.

[Aprender]

that is based on ignorance

ig·no·rance

   [ig-ner-uhns]

noun the state or fact of being ignorant; lack of knowledge, learning, information, etc.


You're the one on an Islamic forum and don't know what you're talking about. It's not our fault your arguments don't make any sense and you seem to not be able to properly articulate your thoughts....

[M.I.A.]

M.I.A the difference between science and religion is that there is foolproof backing to it based on math and other areas. There is no backing to relgion except "somebody said so". Now I am not saying do not listen to anything the quran says. There may be a lot of things in that book that could be used to the betterment of society and the human race. But believing that he is GOD who created the universe when all he is a human being. Why does god have to be in a human form? Couldn't he have been a snake, dog, or a space alien? We are a microscopic fragment of this universe (the earth, even more so human beings) in the big picture we are absolutely meaningless to a degree. People have gone through hard times in history and have tried to find peace and comfort as some sort of a comfort blanket. Just like drug users find comfort and bliss in heroin you find it in religion. Just because he was smart enough to write a book about "morals" of society doesn't make him a prophet to "God". You think if God really wanted everyone to believe in him they would actually give us a sign. And religious people argue there is a time and a place where god will show himself or he wants you to repent him and wait for him in the afterlife.. But that is just an illogical cop out based on delusional rationalization.

maths is naturally occurring in life before any equation or observation.

..nonsense? your not a hardcore mathematician i take it.. those guys can look at flowers and see maths.

you would not know anything of science if it had not been related to you by some scientist, sure you may have a natural inclination to ask scientific questions but how far would you have got without the knowledge of others?

some scientist somewhere said for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction, if you applied that to any part of your life maybe that would make you a more careful person.

maybe if somebody said its an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth every word would be twice thought about before being uttered.
jesus pbuh apparently.

maybe a man said that there losses would be similar to yours and all of a sudden the burden of leadership and value of life is established.
the quran.

i may be clutching at straws to make these connections but maybe they fit into place easily within my universe. gods laws are never changing... its like they were set in the very heavens and the earth.

you miss the point when you say for the betterment of society, every man is his own man.. so he wishes to believe..
if you have ever tried to better society then maybe you would understand that it does not work like that.

you cannot better society.. it has to want to better itself.. individually.

freedom of choice.

i dont think god has ever been in human form. prophets have declared themselves as such and some have been the most humble in doing so..

prophet muhammed pbuh messenger and servant of allah swt.

dogs and cats and snakes and aliens.. well if they cross your path i guess a response is needed.. i doubt its god but it wouldnt have been there unless it was allowed to be there..
you missed out spiders.. they scare the hell outta me.
dunno bout aliens but they are harder to spot than ninja's.. somethings are better unseen i guess.

i have heard Neil deGrasse Tyson state the same about the universe that in its vastness and inhospitable nature at large there is no possibility of intelligent design.

i would say if you look at engineering at its forefront.. nanotechnology and robotics, what they hope to achieve in the future would very much resemble organic life.

..the robot of the future would be the human of today. the nanotechnology of tomorrow would be the blood cells of today.

i agree we are like ants in the cosmos, but there aint many ants out there as you know.

as for signs of god, the world is divided by war, oppression, hunger and apathy in equal parts.. if anybody thinks that god will bale the place out they are probably wrong.
in my eyes we are at least 1400 years to late for that bus.. that was the last sign in my eyes.. dont think we are getting another one until the very end.

yeah not much of a comfort blanket but religion was a wakeup call for me, peace in life can be achieved but if you go out looking for it.. it only ever seems like war.

as in your opening post, people will go to the ends of the earth to protect there religion.. but it was meant to protect them.
from a position of weakness comes strength.. just dont lose your heads while the knives are out.

we are all internet heroes but vastly unequipped to spread a religion other than peace.. so let it be peace.

asalaam alaikum.

maybe then there will be a sign and proof of god..

Confucius say, do unto others as they do unto you.

maybe they cant do until you do.. never thought about it like that.

dont transgress bounds, allah swt does not like those that transgress bounds... paraphrased.


whatever joboman 24 i can ramble all day its just opinion.

[joboman24]

where did Hindus, Hanuman monkeys, Ganesh Elephants and Cow Girls come in from in a discussion on "logic and science?" Are you an atheist or a Hindu? you seem to be very supportive of your Hindu brethren.

i am an atheist. I question my own mom why she prays to god or why she offers food to god etc. I think it is silly. The sad reality is there is no meaning to life(although there is temporary meaning while you are living). You are going to live and die and erode off in the dust. That is my opinion unless someone can tell me there is an afterlife for a fact.

[CosmicPathos]

You are going to live and die and erode off in the dust.

so are the babies who die? wow, what a pathetic view you have of yourself.

If that is really your belief, why are you so worked up on who kills who? We all are gonna erode away anyways, why does it matter to you if a muslimg gunmen shot down your friend in taj? She would have eroded off in the dust anyways.

[joboman24]

maths is naturally occurring in life before any equation or observation.

you would not know anything of science if it had not been related to you by some scientist, sure you may have a natural inclination to ask scientific questions but how far would you have got without the knowledge of others?

some scientist somewhere said for every reaction there is an equal and opposite reaction, if you applied that to any part of your life maybe that would make you a more careful person.

maybe if somebody said its an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth every word would be twice thought about before being uttered.
jesus pbuh apparently.

maybe a man said that there losses would be similar to yours and all of a sudden the burden of leadership and value of life is established.
the quran.

i may be clutching at straws to make these connections but maybe they fit into place easily within my universe. gods laws are never changing... its like they were set in the very heavens and the earth.

you miss the point when you say for the betterment of society, every man is his own man.. so he wishes to believe..
if you have ever tried to better society then maybe you would understand that it does not work like that.

you cannot better society.. it has to want to better itself.. individually.

freedom of choice.

i dont think god has ever been in human form. prophets have declared themselves as such and some have been the most humble in doing so..

prophet muhammed pbuh messenger and servant of allah swt.

dogs and cats and snakes and aliens.. well if they cross your path i guess a response is needed.. i doubt its god but it wouldnt have been there unless it was allowed to be there..
you missed out spiders.. they scare the hell outta me.
dunno bout aliens but they are harder to spot than ninja's.. somethings are better unseen i guess.

i have heard Neil deGrasse Tyson state the same about the universe that in its vastness and inhospitable nature at large there is no possibility of intelligent design.

i would say if you look at engineering at its forefront.. nanotechnology and robotics, what they hope to achieve in the future would very much resemble organic life.

..the robot of the future would be the human of today. the nanotechnology of tomorrow would be the blood cells of today.

i agree we are like ants in the cosmos, but there aint many ants out there as you know.

as for signs of god, the world is divided by war, oppression, hunger and apathy in equal parts.. if anybody thinks that god will bale the place out they are probably wrong.
in my eyes we are at least 1400 years to late for that bus.. that was the last sign in my eyes.. dont think we are getting another one until the very end.

yeah not much of a comfort blanket but religion was a wakeup call for me, peace in life can be achieved but if you go out looking for it.. it only ever seems like war.

as in your opening post, people will go to the ends of the earth to protect there religion.. but it was meant to protect them.
from a position of weakness comes strength.. just dont lose your heads while the knives are out.

we are all internet heroes but vastly unequipped to spread a religion other than peace.. so let it be peace.

asalaam alaikum.

maybe then there will be a sign and proof of god..

Confucius say, do unto others as they do unto you.

maybe they cant do until you do.. never thought about it like that.

dont transgress bounds, allah swt does not like those that transgress bounds... paraphrased.


whatever joboman 24 i can ramble all day its just opinion.

a lot of what you said is garbage. But I agree with you on your last post. Let religion be peace. How about let peace be religion how does that sound? We can have peace as our religion and not all these fatwas and such banning so and so and such and such. There was a fatwa issue against sania mirza a muslim from India tennis player who had a fatwah out for her life because she wore a skirt. How about no such violence eh? Let the individual person do what they want? It's called having a human right.

[joboman24]

muhammad how come you delete my post calling allah a bearded guy but not cosmic calling hindu god a cowgirl? Seems unfair to me.

[M.I.A.]

sure peace can be the religion, so the next time your up for a job interview look at the faces of those competing with you for a job.
peace goes out the window every single day on every single level.


EDIT: ...fine..medical profession withstanding. lol

..except your competing with god there so double lol.


peace is foregone for life.. for survival, it brings out the worst in all of us.

i remember as a kid my headmaster used to tell a story in assembly, probably every year.

it was a tale of heaven and hell
a man was shown hell and in it were people at a feasting table but they could only eat with ten foot chopsticks. it was impossible and torture. the people in a state of disrepair.

he was then shown heaven where all the people were content and he thought life without chopsticks lol.
they sat to eat and the ten foot chopsticks came out..

they fed each other.


anyway it may not be the heaven im waiting for but its the hell we live in. hope you understand peace is as complicated as religion.

as for fatwahs on miniskirts, its much the same as iraqi's killing children that dress as emo's... yes it happened.

when you get people fit to lead, maybe you will finally get a people worthy to follow.
maybe its the other way around, when you get a people worthy to follow they may actually produce a worthy leader.

until then you will have every excuse.


incidentally it would have been much easier to target those selling the clothes and paraphernalia of emo'ism.. but it didnt happen like that.

and maybe the tennis player could have endorsed a muslim ladies fashion designer, im sure the girls can come up with something practical and islamic...missed out on free pr and advertising for sure.

[CosmicPathos]

muhammad how come you delete my post calling allah a bearded guy but not cosmic calling hindu god a cowgirl? Seems unfair to me.

I didnt say that, it is written in Vedas. The avatar of God-incarnate Krishna, despite having his wife Radha, used to play around with Cow Girls (called gopis) in the fields and used to sing them some tunes on his flute, some 3000 years ago.

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

i am an atheist. I question my own mom why she prays to god or why she offers food to god etc. I think it is silly. The sad reality is there is no meaning to life(although there is temporary meaning while you are living). You are going to live and die and erode off in the dust. That is my opinion unless someone can tell me there is an afterlife for a fact.

Of course, your mother holds a different belief than muslims as we do not offer food to God , as he has no need of this, because he doesn't have needs like humans, it would not benefit him.

"To Allah belong all things in heaven and earth: verily Allah is He (that is) free of all wants, worthy of all praise."[ Al Qur'aan 31:26]

But, do you not realise that there is purpose for a human to be full of life at one point and at some point he'll become completely lifeless.
How can you accept that we get a life out of no where and die and rot away out of no where, and yet conclude, we have no reason.

If there is no meaning to life, then we shouldn't have been given a life to live in the first place. Why is this earth created? Who created it? What is the purpose of life? To simply say we came on earth for a couple of days and then rot away, doesn't make sense.

[Pygoscelis]

M.I.A the difference between science and religion is that there is foolproof backing to it based on math and other areas. There is no backing to relgion except "somebody said so".

Not quite, but I see what you are getting at so let me rephrase it. The difference between science and religion is that they come at knowledge from opposite directions. Science is bottom up. It is about asking questions and doing tests to try to figure out the answers. Religion is top down. It is about declaring that you already have all the answers, by "revelation" (ie, because authority (ie God) told you them). Both kinds of learning COULD be valid... if we assume in the latter case that said authority is valid and something we should trust in (ie, "faith").

[Pygoscelis]

If that is really your belief, why are you so worked up on who kills who? We all are gonna erode away anyways, why does it matter to you if a muslimg gunmen shot down your friend in taj? She would have eroded off in the dust anyways.

Because it would be ending her life and causing her pain and taking her away from him before it should be time. That isn't obvious to you?

By your same logic though, one could ask why would you object to people killing off muslims, if you believe that after they die they go to heaven.

And one could note how incredibly convenient suicide being considered a sin is.

[Aprender]

By your same logic though, one could ask why would you object to people killing off muslims, if you believe that after they die they go to heaven.

Islam is not like Christianity in believing that once you die you automatically go to heaven. No, just because someone says they are a Muslim doesn't mean they automatically go to heaven.

[CosmicPathos]

By your same logic though, one could ask why would you object to people killing off muslims, if you believe that after they die they go to heaven.

Cuz despite going to heaven, God has told us to value life as it is His blessing, and he has declared murder wrong, it does not however mean that valuing life negates the award that await in afterlife for martyrs and believers.

[joboman24]

pygo you are absolutely right my phrasing came off a bit wrong. Ghareebah my personal belief is life was created by utter and meaningless randomness of luck. Life getting created on Earth to me is the chances of say winning the 600 million dollar lottery that 3 different people won recently. Some absolute stroke of luck sparked the first stroke of luck. I am not certain how the first spark of life was created although there is some semi valid theories. Maybe pygo can educate you more on that. seems like he is a lot more educated than me on this subject although we have the same beliefs. I am only 19 years old freshman in college so I have a lot more to learn.

[joboman24]

to the religious. please give me an answer to this logic based on religion
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

[tw009]

to the religious. please give me an answer to this logic based on religion
Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

Have a read, http://www.hamzatzortzis.com/essays-...oblem-of-evil/