pondering Judaism and Islam... :) [Archive]

Annelise

11-04-2012, 07:10 AM

Hi, I'm Annelise, writing from Sydney Australia. I wanted to join this forum because I'm curious about the Islamic understanding of Judaism, and thought it would be helpful to ask my questions firsthand from Muslims. I come from a Christian background but was challenged about a year ago by the Jewish understanding, so while I'm not Jewish I do believe what they say about who God is and how He has revealed Himself. I also have some Muslim friends from university whom I respect a lot and who I know have a close relationship with Him. I'm trying to get a wide range of opinions and responses on some issues. I'll number them for clarity, but in a way they build on each other as one question :)

1. I know Muslims believe that the Torah came from God but the manuscripts and traditions were changed, so that what the Jews had in the time of Muhammed was no longer the truth God had revealed to the Jewish people. If you do believe that the covenant God made with the Jews was given on the basis of their experience when they came out of slavery in Egypt and He gave His law to them at the mountain, what exactly do you think that covenant/promise was? What were its conditions? And what were the methods that He put in place to make sure that law and their testimony about Him could be preserved for the later generations?

2. In my experience, Christians usually ask Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah (etc.) based on the current Jewish scriptures, but for Muslims it's different. You believe that the Jewish text of the Bible is corrupted. The reality is that Jews can't accept the Qur'an on the basis of the Torah that they currently have because it contains certain promises and instructions about how to know God in their covenant law and relationship, which they would have to let go of to join Islam. Of course, if the text has been changed then it's not an issue. But this is what I wonder. If Jews can only accept Islam by deciding that there are flaws in the written Torah and the Jewish tradition, and then they might come to Islam for the reasons that anyone else in the world might do so, then why were Jews commanded by the Qur'an to accept Islam on the basis of the knowledge they already had?

3. I don't know how you'll answer the question (2) above, but I can make a guess. It might be possible to say that maybe Jews had corrupted traditions and scriptures, but nonetheless their religions still had a true understanding of some things; a separate, deeper, and innate sense of God's reality, His unity, the way He deserves to be worshipped, and what is truly good or moral. In that way the Qur'an could appeal to something that they thought Jews and Christians already knew while also contradicting the 'shallower' details of their faith claims. I think that the Jewish response to this answer would be that the commandments are fundamentally important in Judaism as a legal covenant religion. If they haven't been preserved accurately, then there is no way of making decisions about new revelations on the basis of the preceding covenant. If this were how the conversation went, what would be the next response from an Islamic perspective?

4. Imagine if a claimant to prophecy came this year and said that Islam was a true revelation from God but that its prophet had slightly, accidentally, added to the message he received before it was written down. Such a new religion might suggest that even though most of the Qur'an was accurate, it wasn't God's final revelation, and some was not from God... but Muslims must still accept the new claim on the basis of the knowledge of God that they already have. If this happened, how would Islam respond to such a claim? What would make you feel confident to ignore it, even if that religion said you needed to accept it in order to continue knowing God?

Thanks so much for reading, and I hope that my way of thinking about these questions is clear enough. I would love to hear any response, simple or in depth, to the perspective I have about what the first Muslims were asking Jews to do, to give up, and to accept. I look forward to meeting you and gaining broader clarity in these things. Blessings,
Annelise

- Qatada -

11-04-2012, 08:12 AM

Originally Posted by Annelise

Hey Annelise :) welcome. Good questions.

I'm not going to answer your questions directly, but rather i'll answer the Islamic viewpoint on Jewish, Christian and Islamic history to give you an overview of what Islam is, and how it relates directly to these religions.

Islam means submission to God. Muslim are (meaning: those who submit to God) therefore anyone who followed God's real guidance throughout history is a Muslim. Adam (peace be upon him) was the first Muslim - the father of the human race.

Adam was given guidance on how to live the best and purest life on Earth, after he had repented to God and God had accepted his repentance (a major difference of Islam vs christianity original sin). But after Adam had passed away, his son (Cain, the sinful one was not fit enough to carry on as being the Messenger of God, when he was the one who had killed his own brother Habel). So by this time, his descendants were without guidance once again. The human race therefore had expanded in number, but the guidance of God wasn't there as it was at the time of Adam.

So God sent human Messengers' again, ranging from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus, with a total of 124,000 Prophets' of God coming to every land on Earth - telling the humans to serve God in the best possible way and to avoid false gods and satans evil plans.

But the sad reality was - satan always fooled the masses by encouraging the people to worship the righteous people who had died, this is why you see so much saints graves turning into places where people go to pray, prostrate and beg to the dead saint to help them. All this is a trick of satan which makes that grave turn into an object of worship along with God. Infact, Jesus is even worshipped now by Christians and is either classed as 'God' or part of God (son). When there is none but 1 God, our Creator and Provider.

All Messengers had come with a clear message: worship and serve God alone, with all your heart and mind, and to be good to those close to you and far from you. It was this simple, but the devils from men and jinn (spirits) misled people so they loved and worshipped human saints instead of God, or idols, or even their own desires (nowadays this is the most common) instead of God and serving His guidance above all else.

The Jews themselves did the same sin that satan did, satan said he will never follow the guidance of God (in prostrating to Adam), because he is 'better than him' (the superior race). Why should God keep an everlasting covenant with the Jews when they are the killers of God's Prophets' (Zakariah, John the Baptist, and the alleged murder of Jesus)? Surely God can replace them and their arrogance with people who will follow the way of Abraham the most (Muslims follow Abraham, Jesus and Moses more than any other people on Earth).

So God made a new covenant with the whole world - whoever follows the final Messenger of God Muhammad, the servant and Messenger of God (who is mentioned by name in the Jewish scriptures, then he will be successful:

The Qur'an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:

"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospels"

the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:

"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh WA Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."

Translation:"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is Mohammad. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."

The Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) preaches the same message of Moses, and Jesus - of serving 1 God, our Creator and Provider. He removes all the doubts and divisions the Jews and Christians differed over and could never unite again on. He came with a complete and perfect guidance which is undisputable and unites mankind upon goodness in serving 1 God instead of just limiting this offer to one [Jewish] race only.

All these are clear signs that he is a final Messenger of God. He is the most influential man on Earth, and the Qur'an is the most authentically preserved Book in the world - both which are FACTS without doubt. Which again supports that if God sent a Message, it was to this man, and that message was God's Book.

Theres alot more that i can say, but i recommend you check this site out for abit more info:

http://IslamReligion.com

Peace :)

Annelise

11-04-2012, 09:19 AM

Shalom/Salaam :) and I liked your reply... it was clear and I appreciate how you welcomed, listened, and responded to what I wrote. So thank you. Even though I would like to get back to the questions I wrote, I think you're right that it's important first to clarify the foundations of where each faith is coming from. I'll try and reply to some of what you wrote from my own perspective, and then I'll describe why this conversation feels so important to me.

Jews and Muslims are quite alike in the belief that a person can repent and be forgiven, as you mentioned happening with Adam. This is expressed beautifully in passages such as Isaiah 55 and Ezekiel 33:10-16, which are both specifically about how to be forgiven. As you say it does contradict the Christian concept of original sin, also the concept of the death of the Messiah being needed for forgiveness. Jews believe that even before the time of Abraham, there were righteous people (most notably Noah, like you wrote) who understood that God is one, alone, and stood for this among their generations. In these things we are very similar in our message.

According to the written Torah (as preserved) in Deuteronomy 30 and the surrounding chapters, God told the Israelites that they would be punished when they didn't keep His laws and the spirit of those laws, but He said "When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you." (Deuteronomy 30:1-4) Both Islam and Christianity mention a 'new covenant' as a new community altogether who would bear witness to who God is in the world. In the Jewish scriptures, the idea of a new covenant is a promise that even despite the sins of the Jewish people, God would return them to Himself and renew His covenant with them when they would repent, by His grace and with His help. Regarding the murder of the prophets, it's important to remember that those prophets wrote a lot about a small righteous community within the wider population of the Jews, whom God would preserve: "'The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,' declares the Lord. 'As for me, this is my covenant with them,' says the Lord. 'My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,' says the Lord." (Isaiah 59:20-21) This is why Jews believe it is so important to carefully guard the covenant they have received from the generations before them, because in doing so they desire to guard the message about God in the earth.

I just want to clarify a couple of other things. I've heard people say the big difference between Islam and Judaism is that Jews claim an exclusive covenant, where only one ethnicity can be righteous and surrender to God, while Islam is a universal invitation. My life is a good example of the way in which Jews believe that God gave them a particular covenant and responsibility, kind of as if they are a nation of priests, but that He only did this so that everyone in the world could know Him. In Biblical prophecies where God spoke of His presence and glory blessing the Jewish people, He often spoke of the way in which all nations would see this light and come to worship Him together with Israel. The story of Jonah is another good example of this, where the Assyrian city of Nineveh repented of the violence they were committing and God blessed and forgave them. Personally, I am not Jewish and I haven't converted to Judaism, so I don't keep the ritual laws of the Torah; they aren't mine to keep. But I am in a relationship with God, submitted to Him, and I follow the moral laws taught in Judaism about how all humanity should serve God. I feel blessed to have heard this message about worshipping God alone and not finding any good reason to believe that a human was actually God incarnate rather than (as you would expect) part of creation.

The other thing I want to clarify is that when talking about Israel, I'm not talking about 'the state of Israel'. I disagree with some aspects of that state and what it does, and I would defend other things, but it isn't what I'm referring to at all. When I talk about the testimony of Israel, I mean the message that is held by righteous Jews in every generation about God and how He calls all of humanity to know Him. And this is why the question is so important to me, and I can't just listen to Islam without taking very seriously the things that the Qur'an asks Jews to do. Jews believe (as Muslims do) that there are laws from God that must be kept, and that if they give them up for a different law code then they're breaking their covenant with God. You could imagine how Muslims might feel if the 'prophet' in my first post's fourth question told them to give up some of the laws that they follow and adhere to a slightly different law code. It would have to be questioned at least. And not only for personal reasons; Jews believe that adhering to the Torah, keeping to Sabbath, and such things, are a big part of what preserves them as a nation to show idolatrous or atheist/agnostic nations who God truly is. I heard a Rabbi say recently that to be part of a covenantal people means to be God's witnesses (Isaiah 43:10). The Jewish people are here to testify to the entire world that God is the only sovereign being, there are no others; God has absolute sovereignty over the entire creation. God says many times in the Hebrew scriptures that they should be exceedingly careful to never, ever forget the experience that their ancestors had at Mount Sinai; to remember it over and over, and teach to their children, who would teach it to their children (Deuteronomy 4:9) This is how the Jewish people would receive their concept of who and what God is. This passing down of the experience at Sinai, to testify that God alone deserves our worship because He made us, He made our hearts, is what they are here for. They have been willing to die for this throughout the centuries.

For this reason, they can't change the commandments and they can't deny that the Jewish covenant preserves an important voice of God in the world. A good example of this is in the Biblical book of Daniel, where Daniel and his friends were taken into exile but they refused to eat the meat of their captors and yet God kept them strong, giving them both wisdom and favour. When the king created a statue to represent that his kingdom would last forever, Daniel's friends refused to bow to it even at the threat of death: they would not bow to an idol, but they also would not bow to the idea of history that it represented. Jews believe that Islam is incredibly accurate in many things, particularly the belief that nothing in creation deserves our worship, and that this truth is what makes Islam resonate so much with the God-loving people who follow it. Even so, they can't let go of the covenant law and beliefs about their role in the world unless the questions in my first post are addressed in a way that compels them to follow their God in that way.

As you can see, we both have really similar values, but different visions of how God has revealed Himself and through which faith system He desires people to listen and submit to Him. Each of our scriptures will disagree with some of the ideas that the other has mentioned. This is why I wrote the questions that I did earlier, because to the best of my ability they come close to the heart of the issue from a Jewish perspective of what Muslims ask from them. Anyway, I'm really enjoying talking with you... thanks again!

Annelise

11-04-2012, 09:24 AM

One more thing. When you mentioned the name of Muhammed in that verse from Shir Hashirim (The Song of Songs), that word is only there (it's in plural form) because in Hebrew it means similarly to in Arabic. The translation is "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, this is my friend, daughters of Jerusalem." It's a beautiful love poem.

Christians say something similar about the name of Jesus appearing in the Hebrew Bible, because his name Yeshua meant 'salvation'. So wherever that word appears in the scriptures, including when it is in reference to God, some Christians will find parallels to Jesus as they understand him to have been. I believe that this would only be relevant if their faith system as a whole were proven to be true, but as it is it can't stand as proof.

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'Abd al-Baari

11-04-2012, 09:26 AM

Greetings and :welcome: to the forums.

I will leave the questions for brother Qatada, but I wish you an enjoyable stay here, and hope that you find it beneficial.

Annelise

11-04-2012, 09:31 AM

Thanks so much, it's really lovely to meet you (so to speak), and it's kind that you'd write a welcome. I looked at a few Muslim forums online but I decided to post on this one, because it seems like a friendly and positive community. So impressive and really beautiful, actually.

Hope you have a great week, and may God bless you closely in His kindness.

- Qatada -

11-04-2012, 10:17 AM

1. I know Muslims believe that the Torah came from God but the manuscripts and traditions were changed, so that what the Jews had in the time of Muhammed was no longer the truth God had revealed to the Jewish people. If you do believe that the covenant God made with the Jews was given on the basis of their experience when they came out of slavery in Egypt and He gave His law to them at the mountain, what exactly do you think that covenant/promise was? What were its conditions? And what were the methods that He put in place to make sure that law and their testimony about Him could be preserved for the later generations?

If you want to read alot about Jewish history, then you should know that the Qur'an is extremely detailed about this, which is part of the Qurans miraculous nature (a text revealed in the 7th century when Jews had kept their history to themselves, and wikipedia wasn't available :) ).

Quran chapter 2 (the Calf) and Chapter 7, and chapter 17 (chapter: Children of Israel) discuss the history of the Jews alot, and you can check it out on http://Quran.com

And [recall] when We took your covenant, [O Children of Israel, to abide by the Torah] and We raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with strength/determination and remember what is in it that perhaps you may become righteous." (Quran 2:63)

What were the Commandments given to the Jews?

Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them.

And do not approach immoralities/shamefulness - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." (Quran 6:151)

2. In my experience, Christians usually ask Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah (etc.) based on the current Jewish scriptures, but for Muslims it's different. You believe that the Jewish text of the Bible is corrupted. The reality is that Jews can't accept the Qur'an on the basis of the Torah that they currently have because it contains certain promises and instructions about how to know God in their covenant law and relationship, which they would have to let go of to join Islam. Of course, if the text has been changed then it's not an issue. But this is what I wonder. If Jews can only accept Islam by deciding that there are flaws in the written Torah and the Jewish tradition, and then they might come to Islam for the reasons that anyone else in the world might do so, then why were Jews commanded by the Qur'an to accept Islam on the basis of the knowledge they already had?

God/Allah tells us:

And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah (purification charity) and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way."

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. (Quran 5: 12-13)

3. I don't know how you'll answer the question (2) above, but I can make a guess. It might be possible to say that maybe Jews had corrupted traditions and scriptures, but nonetheless their religions still had a true understanding of some things; a separate, deeper, and innate sense of God's reality, His unity, the way He deserves to be worshipped, and what is truly good or moral. In that way the Qur'an could appeal to something that they thought Jews and Christians already knew while also contradicting the 'shallower' details of their faith claims. I think that the Jewish response to this answer would be that the commandments are fundamentally important in Judaism as a legal covenant religion. If they haven't been preserved accurately, then there is no way of making decisions about new revelations on the basis of the preceding covenant. If this were how the conversation went, what would be the next response from an Islamic perspective?

God/Allah has told us the history of the Jews the most thoroughly in the Qur'an, because His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) has warned us that we as a nation will follow their footsteps in good and bad. Moses is the most spoken about Messenger of God in the Quran.

You know how much pressure the Jews have been to defend their race from extinction, in many cases they have had to change their scripture (or in the least: its context) to defend themselves, especially when they were enslaved when their kings were tyrants. It is clear they have altered their scripture or its context - which has made their later generations forget huge portions of the religion which were important. Since Guidance of God is to be taken in its entirety.

For Israelites then to take pride in knowing God (when its clear they have rebelled against God many times), isnt a justification for them being still part of the covenant of God if they themselves have forgotten portions of it.

The only logical answer is that God chose another people who He loves, and they love Him. Who will fulfill the covenant better than the Jews, and it is known that Muslims fulfill this covenant in many cases even more than the Jews.

Infact, just a look at the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a proof of him being a Messenger of God, who was in many ways more successful and superior to Moses in all aspects.

Read about his life and achievements briefly here:
http://www.islamreligion.com/category/79/

4. Imagine if a claimant to prophecy came this year and said that Islam was a true revelation from God but that its prophet had slightly, accidentally, added to the message he received before it was written down. Such a new religion might suggest that even though most of the Qur'an was accurate, it wasn't God's final revelation, and some was not from God... but Muslims must still accept the new claim on the basis of the knowledge of God that they already have. If this happened, how would Islam respond to such a claim? What would make you feel confident to ignore it, even if that religion said you needed to accept it in order to continue knowing God?

Again, we dont blindly say Muhammad is the Messenger of God. No, we have strong convincing proofs that he is sent from God, his life biography is a proof, the book (Quran) he came with is a proof, and his achievements are a proof. If God chose a Messenger who would lead mankind, he would have to be the most influential man with the most influential book right? No other man fits this position more than Muhammad (peace be upon him.)

I'll summarise this by quoting two western thinkers, and what they said about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him):

Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:

“He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope’s pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.”

Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:

“Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?”

What they said about Muhammad:
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/196/viewall/

Annelise

11-04-2012, 10:18 AM

Also, I should add that I didn't write these questions to try and persuade anyone here to agree with me. I really want to understand what the Jewish and Muslim discussion sounds like at its clearest. I love that Muslims are seeking and serving God in a way that is often really beautiful, and which I believe He accepts. But these issues are also really important in my eyes; they're also so complex in the world today, in a way that I'm not yet sensitive enough to. And I've heard a number of non-religious Jewish friends telling me that they can't see the difference between the Jewish and the Muslim claims regarding God, so it's a personal matter that I want to look at more deeply. Thanks for your willingness to share how you see God and the world.

Annelise

11-04-2012, 10:21 AM

Oh- we both posted at almost the same time, so the post above this one isn't a response to what you last wrote!

I'm just trying to finish an assignment for uni, but I'll reply to you soon, when I can do so more clearly and in less words than before :) I really look forward to talking with you more.

- Qatada -

11-04-2012, 10:22 AM

I look forward to it :)

If you need any help with your assignments, ask us and we can try to give you some help in research etc.

Peace!

Annelise

11-04-2012, 10:25 AM

Thanks. My essay is actually about medieval Karaite Judaism. I decided to take some Hebrew and Jewish Studies units this semester so I could learn more about Judaism while completing my degree (in medieval studies)... Really interesting!

- Qatada -

11-04-2012, 10:31 AM

Interesting, if you really want to know about jewish history though - you'll have to study and learn Hebrew. There is too much problems in learning a history and culture of a people until u know their language.

Trust me i know because i've only started to appreciate Islam more now that I can grasp Arabic (infact the arabic language is one of the miracles of the Quran) - Arabic is the most powerful language in the world and unmatched in style and effect, and Hebrew is extremely similar to it (they're both sister languages).

I've actually been able to make a book to prove this - called: Quran the LinguisticMiracle (which you can download from here for free: )

http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/13...ml#post1524830

You can read it whenever u get the time.

Annelise

11-04-2012, 10:38 AM

I definitely agree with you... I've been learning Hebrew for most of this year. I hear it a lot at the synagogue as well, where I've been going to pray with and get to know some of the Jewish community here in Sydney.

Maybe in a year or so I also hope to learn Arabic, because I appreciate a lot of the literature that has been written in it. Your language and culture lend themselves to very aesthetically rich expression of beauty and the human experience. It's nice that the two languages are so similar for that reason. I learnt some Turkish a while ago as well, so maybe there'll be some cross over from there as well.

Really have to go, but thanks again,
Annelise

- Qatada -

11-04-2012, 10:44 AM

Thats fine, no problem :)

I just want to end with giving you a video of a recitation and English translation of

Chapter 17 of the Qur'an - called: the Children of Israel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lafU6najjRE

You can check it whenever you're free, peace!

Annelise

11-04-2012, 10:49 AM

I'll definitely watch it! I think when I reply to you, I'll try and focus most on your answer to the second question... about how the Jews of Muhammed's time, and afterward, were supposed to know from their Judaism that Islam was what God desired from them, and that they should dare to let go of what they thought they were protecting out of love for Him. It still seems to me that a Jew would have to reject the accuracy of Judaism first before considering Islam, so apart from their increased caution, I don't see the difference between them and anyone else when it comes to considering this religion.

Anyway, I will get to the other things later, especially after I've had a chance to open all the links and read again the passages you mentioned. Peace,
Annelise

YusufNoor

11-04-2012, 11:31 AM

Shalom alaichum Annelise,

i would really enjoy having this discussion with you. i don't have any "pat" answers. i have a unique perspective on this topic. might i ask, in order to explain things in a way you could relate to, what "form" of Judaism you identify with?

also, how many times a day do you pray? what do you "read" in those prayers? is it your belief that you follow the decalogue, as you understand it was revealed?

and a trick question ;D, can i assume that you know Christian scripture as well as Jewish Scripture? and in that assumption, would you have reviewed any Qur'an? having asked that, and assuming that you have some knowledge of them, tell me what your opinion of this passage is [oh, and by the way, did you know that Prophet Moses,pbuh, is mentioned over 80 times in the Qur'an?]:

6 So the people said, “Lord, may your glorious name be praised. May it be lifted high above every other name that is blessed and praised. 6 You are the one and only Lord. You made the heavens. You made even the highest heavens. You created all of the stars in the sky. You created the earth and everything that is on it. And you made the oceans and everything that is in them. You give life to everything. Every living being in heaven worships you.

7 “You are the Lord God. You chose Abram. You brought him out of Ur in Babylonia. You named him Abraham. 8 You knew that his heart was faithful to you. And you made a covenant with him. You promised to give to his children after him a land of their own. It was the land of the Canaanites, Hittites and Amorites. The Perizzites, Jebusites and Girgashites also lived there. You have kept your promise. That’s because you always do what is right and fair.

9 “You saw how our people suffered long ago in Egypt. You heard them cry out to you at the Red Sea. 10 You did miraculous signs and wonders against Pharaoh. You sent plagues on all of his officials. In fact, you sent them on all of the people of Egypt. You knew how they treated our people. They looked down on them. But you made a name for yourself. That name remains to this very day.

11 “You parted the Red Sea for the people of Israel. They passed through it on dry ground. But you threw into the sea those who chased them. They sank down like a stone into the mighty waters. 12 By day you led them with a pillar of cloud. At night you led them with a pillar of fire. It gave them light to show them the way you wanted them to go.

13 “You came down on Mount Sinai. From heaven you spoke to our people. You gave them rules and laws. Those laws are right and fair. You gave them orders and commands that are good. 14 You taught them about your holy Sabbath day. You gave them commands, orders and laws. You did it through your servant Moses.

15 “When the people were hungry, you gave them bread from heaven. When they were thirsty, you brought them water out of a rock.

“You told them to go into the land of Canaan. You told them to take it as their own. It was the land you had promised to give them. You had even raised your hand and taken an oath to do it.

16 “But our people before us became proud and stubborn. They didn’t obey your commands. 17 They refused to listen to you. They forgot the miracles you had done among them. So they became stubborn. When they refused to obey you, they appointed a leader for themselves. They wanted to go back to being slaves in Egypt. But you are a God who forgives. You are gracious. You are tender and kind. You are slow to get angry. You are full of love. So you didn’t desert them.

18 “They made for themselves a metal statue of a god that looked like a calf. They said, ‘Here is your god. He brought you up out of Egypt.’ And they did evil things that dishonored you. But you still didn’t desert them.

19 “Because you loved them so much, you didn’t leave them in the desert. During the day the pillar of cloud didn’t stop guiding them on their path. At night the pillar of fire didn’t stop shining on the way you wanted them to go. 20 You gave them your good Spirit to teach them. You didn’t hold back your manna from their mouths. And you gave them water when they were thirsty. 21 For 40 years you took good care of them in the desert. They had everything they needed. Their clothes didn’t wear out. And their feet didn’t swell up.

22 “You gave them kingdoms and nations. You even gave them lands far away. They took over the country of Sihon. He was king of Heshbon. They also took over the country of Og. He was king of Bashan. 23 You gave them as many children as there are stars in the sky. You told their parents to enter the land. You told them to take it over. And you brought their children into it. 24 Their children went into the land. They took it as their own. You brought the people of Canaan under Israel’s control. The Canaanites lived in the land. But you handed them over to Israel. You also handed their kings and the other nations in the land over to Israel. You allowed Israel to deal with them just as they wanted to.

25 “Your people captured cities that had high walls around them. They also took over the rich land in Canaan. They took houses that were filled with all kinds of good things. They took over wells that had already been dug. They took many vineyards, olive groves and fruit trees. They ate until they were very full and satisfied. They were filled with joy because you were so good to them.

26 “But they didn’t obey you. Instead, they turned against you. They turned their backs on your law. They killed your prophets. The prophets had warned them to turn back to you. But they did very evil things that dishonored you.

27 “So you handed them over to their enemies, who beat them down. Then they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them. You loved them very much. So you sent leaders to help them. The leaders saved them from the powerful hand of their enemies.

28 “But as soon as the people were enjoying peace and rest again, they did what was evil in your sight. Then you handed them over to their enemies. So their enemies ruled over them. When they cried out to you again, you heard them from heaven. You loved them very much. So you saved them time after time.

29 “You warned them to obey your law again. But they became proud. They didn’t obey your commands. They sinned against your rules. Anyone who obeys them will live by them. But the people didn’t care about that. They turned their backs on you. They became very stubborn. They refused to listen to you.

30 “For many years you put up with them. By your Spirit you warned them through your prophets. In spite of that, they didn’t pay any attention. So you handed them over to the nations that were around them. 31 But you loved them very much. So you didn’t put an end to them. You didn’t desert them. That’s because you are a gracious God. You are tender and kind.

would you say that is an accurate history?

Peace,
Sam

- Qatada -

11-04-2012, 11:49 AM

Originally Posted by Annelise

I don't like rushing into things but because i might be busy later on today, i thought i'd answer abit about this from my perspective.

The Jews at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) were awaiting the final Messenger of God, and this is the reason why they had moved to the city of Medina in the first place prior to his birth (when they could have easily moved to more richer lands if they weren't awaiting him).

This then explains the context of Jews being located in Medina (called: Tayba = the Pure). They were awaiting a Prophet who would be 'unto Moses'. (Deuteronomy 18:15). We know that no man, not even Joshua was similar or greater than Moses in achievements compared to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), or any other man in world history.

Going back to the context of Madinah:

The Jews awaited a Prophet, they saw him and he matched all the descriptions mentioned in their books. EXCEPT one which they assumed or misunderstood - he wasn't Jewish. Due to this, they rejected him and promised to be his enemies till death. Many of them fulfilled this due to pride or tribalism.

Some of the Jewish scholars who became Muslims in early Islamic history quoted the scripture from their book which describes Muhammad (peace be upon him):

Isaiah 42:

042:001 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles 042:002 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 042:003 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 042:004 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

042:006 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

042:008 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

"Ata' Ibn Yasar narrated: I met 'Abdullah bin 'Umar bin 'Amr bin Al-'As and asked him: Tell me about the description of the Messenger of Allah which is mentioned in Torah." He replied, Yes. By Allah, he is mentioned Torah with his qualities found in the Quran as follows, O Prophet! We have sent you as a witness, and a giver of glad tidings, And a warner, and guardian of the illiterates. You are My slave and My Messenger. I have named you al-Mutawakkil (meaning Allahs dependent and relier). You are neither discourteous, harsh, nor a noise-maker in the markets; You do not do evil to those Who do evil to you, but you deal With them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them say: There is no god but Allah. With which will be opened blind eyes, and deaf ears and enveloped hearts (2125 Bukhari)

Even then, there are many further statements describing Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the Torah of the Jews which is further recited today:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]

Could brethren refer to Ishmaelites?

Brown's Hebrew lexicon states that the hebrew word can refer to an indefinite relative or kin in a wider way, like cousins.

In Deuteronomy 2:4, 8, 'brethren' was used in conjunction with the Edomites, who were basically their cousins.

The Ishmaelites (Arabs) are cousin brethren of the Jews. What is the sign of this Messenger mentioned in Deuteronomy? He recites what God commands him, and this is what Qur'an means - 'the Speech of God (which is put into mans mouth) which is recited.'

He is most like Moses than any other man, even more than Jesus (Christians sometimes claim this verse in Deuteronomy refers to him) but a simple comparison shows this isn't true:

Here's a huge list of the similarities between Moses and Muhammad (peace be upon them);

i) Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]

ii) Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii) Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive.
(4:157-158)

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).

There is plenty of evidence from the Torah itself to prove that Muhammad (peace be upon him) really is the final Messenger, but due to sheer racism, alot of the Jewish scholars have hidden the truth from their people. This is why God is extremely angry with them, and the only way to relieve yourself off God's anger is to submit to His final Guidance which He has revealed to His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Furthermore, i've made a site called IslamProphecies which proves that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was really a Messenger of God (and how he couldnt have got this knowledge off devils or spirits who themselves do not know the unseen future of modern day events [considering he was a man who lived in the desert over 1,400years ago.]);

IslamProphecies

So ask yourself - if any man was to be a Messenger of God, wouldn't he have the most influential and powerful book? The most influential character? And truthful Prophecies? Wouldn't he have true miracles and honest achievements which are greater than the miracles of Moses? No man matches this more than Muhammad (peace be upon him).

In the Hebrew language im is added for respect (similarly in Arabic its like that). Similarly im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.

Annelise

11-04-2012, 12:02 PM

YusufNoor, I really look forward to talking with you as well. Just quickly, I'm not Jewish so I'm not under the covenant law which includes the ten commandments. I do follow a lot of them for moral reasons. I deeply avoid idolatry, blasphemy, murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, and jealousy, and I try hard to honour my parents. But I don't keep the Sabbath in the way that Jews are meant to keep it, because that is part of their covenant with God. I believe it is almost as important that I don't take part in their rituals as it is that they do keep them, even as I do take part in their faith. If I decided to convert to the Jewish community then I would keep them carefully, according to the tradition.

Also, I pray each day in my own words whenever my heart looks to God, and sometimes I pray in their liturgy or psalms as well, especially at the synagogue.

I agree with Orthodox Judaism. That in itself is a very broad group with many cultures and traditions within it! I know that some aspects of these cultures are revealed, some are human and traditional, but if we focus on the central things more than the peripheral ones the Orthodox Jewish claim is important. Jews like the Conservative, Karaite, Reform, and other groups do have some important thoughts, but I can't see any other way in which a person can submit to God through the Torah, the Tanach, and the ongoing testimony of this group of people.

When I can have the time to do it justice, I'll reply to the passage that you posted... it's such a good one to talk around. The same to Qatada :)

YusufNoor

11-04-2012, 12:17 PM

Peace Sister,

might i ask, what Torah do you prefer?

Annelise

11-04-2012, 12:18 PM

Could you expand on the question a bit more? I can't grasp what you're asking.

YusufNoor

11-04-2012, 12:22 PM

my bad, what version of the Torah do you read. or, not being a convert, do you just use the OT?

glo

11-04-2012, 12:26 PM

Welcome to the forum, Anneliese. :thankyou:
I don't think I will have much to contribute to this thread, but I will enjoy reading along and pondering as I go. :)

Annelise

11-04-2012, 12:26 PM

Oh, okay :) I do read the Jewish scriptures rather than the 'Old Testament', though the only big difference is the language, the order of the books, and the fact that the New Testament isn't attached.

I have a Hebrew-English Bible which I try to read most of the time; the English is the JPS version, but a translation can never be totally faithful. So I compare the English to the Hebrew (which I'm starting to be able to read), and to other translations (both Jewish and other) quite a lot.

I'm getting a bit distracted here, I probably won't post again for a few days. Hope you all have a wonderful week in the meantime, and that things are well with you at the moment.

YusufNoor

11-04-2012, 12:28 PM

just a quick recommendation, it is the Best English language Chumash, bar none:

http://www.artscroll.com/Products/STOH.html

glo

11-04-2012, 12:30 PM

Originally Posted by YusufNoor

Shalom alaichum Annelise

How close "shalom aleichem" is to "salaam alaikum". :)

I wonder, is the meaning exactly the same or are there differences?
(I know I said I would contribute to this thread, but that's what happens when I start pondering ... ;D)

Annelise

11-04-2012, 12:31 PM

P.S. I forgot to mention that the biggest difference between the Old Testament and the Tanach would be the different communities in which it is pointed to as a revelation from God. But it's fair to say I grew up as a Christian so I know the Hebrew scriptures mostly from that context, and that is where I've held a relationship with God for most of my life.

Glo... I'd love to hear your thoughts on anything, whether here or in a message :thankyou:

See you all.

YusufNoor

11-04-2012, 12:31 PM

it is exactly the same, though i spelled it wrong. ;D

YusufNoor

11-04-2012, 12:34 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

if you check the link, you will find a treasure trove. i have upwards of 50 of their texts, and they way they do the annotations is awesome. they Hebrew is also included, if you can read it.

Perseveranze

11-04-2012, 06:43 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

4. Imagine if a claimant to prophecy came this year and said that Islam was a true revelation from God but that its prophet had slightly, accidentally, added to the message he received before it was written down.

The thing is, forget Muslims, even most Non-Muslims (referring to the Academia of Islamic studies) wouldn't accept it - and that's because of evidence. Whilst there's evidence for alteration for the Bible, there is no evidence for alteration for the Qur'an (rather there's evidence against it).

The following are quotations from Orientalist Academia;

- Dr Frederic Kenyon says: “Besides the larger discrepancies, such as these contradictions, there is scarcely a verse in which there is not some variation of phrase in some copies (of ancient manuscripts from which the bible has been collected). No one can say that those additions or omissions or alterations are matters of mere indifference.” [Frederic Kenyon, Our Bible and The Ancient Manuscripts]

- It is in the preface of the Revised Standard Version of the Bible, 1978, that thirty-two Christian scholars “of the highest eminence,” backed by fifty Christian denominations, wrote of the authorized version, also known as the King James Version, that : “The King James Version have grave defects, so many and so serious as to call for revision.”

- Peake’s Commentary of the Bible notes: “It is well known that the primitive Christian gospel was initially transmitted by word of mouth and that this oral tradition resulted in variant reporting of word and deed. It is equally true that when the Christian record was committed to writing, it continued to be the subject of verbal variation, involuntary and intentional, at the hands of scribes and editors.” [Peake’s commentary on the Bible]

- Encyclopedia Britannica highlights: “Yet, as a matter of fact, every book of the New Testament, with the exception of the four great epistles of St. Paul is at present more or less the subject of controversy and interpolations (inserted verses) are asserted even in these.” [Encyclopedia Britannica, 12th Edition, Vol .3, p643]

- Dr. Bart Ehrman mentions: “In any event, none of the original manuscripts of the books of the bible now survive. What do survive are copies made over the course of the centuries, or more accurately, copies of the copies of the copies, some 5366 of them in the Greek language alone, that date from the second century down to the sixteenth. Strikingly with the exception of the smallest fragments, no two of these copies are exact. No one knows how many different, or variant readings, occur among the surviving witnesses, but they must number in the hundreds of thousands.” [Bart Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture]

- Ehrman states further that: “Nonetheless, there are some kind of textual changes for which it is difficult to account apart from the deliberate activity of a transcriber. When a scribe appended an additional twelve verses to the end of the Gospel of Mark, this can scarcely be attributed to mere oversight.” [Bart Ehrman, The Orthodox Corruption of Scripture]

- Peake’s Commentary on the Bible: “It is now generally agreed that 9-20 are not an original part of Mark. They are not found in the oldest manuscript, and indeed were apparently not in the copies used by Matthew and Luke. A 10th century Armenian Manuscript ascribes the passage to Ariston, the Presbyter mentioned by Papias (Ap. Eus. HE III, xxxix, 15).” [Peake’s commentary on the Bible]

- Kenyon et al note that: “Indeed an Armenian translation of St. Mark has quite recently been discovered, in which the last twelve verses of St. Mark are ascribed to Ariston, who is otherwise known as one of the earliest of the Christian Fathers; and it is quite possible that this tradition is correct.” [Our Bible and the Ancient Manuscripts]

- Bruce M Metzger & Michael D Coogan state: “The Protestant canon took shape by rejecting a number of books and parts of books that had for centuries been part of the Old Testament in the Greek Septuagint and in the Latin Vulgate, and had gained wide acceptance within the Roman Catholic church. In response to the Protestant Reformation, at the Council of Trent (1546) the Catholic church accepted, as deuterocanonical, Tobit, Judith, the Greek additions to Esther, the Wisdom of Solomon, Sirach, Baruch, the Letter of Jeremiah, three Greek additions to Daniel (the Prayer of Azariah and the Song of the Three Jews, Susanna, and Bel and the Dragon), and I and 2 Maccabees. These books, together with those in the Jewish canon and the New Testament, constitute the total of seventy three books accepted by the Roman Catholic church.” [Bruce M Metzger & Michael D Coogan (Ed.), Oxford Companion To The Bible, 1993, Oxford University Press, Oxford & New York, pp. 79 (Under 'Bible')]

- Under Canon of the New Testament the Catholic Encyclopedia says “The idea of a complete and clear-cut canon of the New Testament existing from the beginning, that is from Apostolic times, has no foundation in history. The Canon of the New Testament, like that of the Old, is the result of a development, of a process at once stimulated by disputes with doubters, both within and without the Church, and retarded by certain obscurities and natural hesitations, and which did not reach its final term until the dogmatic definition of the Tridentine Council.” [The Catholic Encyclopedia Online Edition.]

This is why the Qur'an says;

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَٰذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا ۖ فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ
“Woe to those who write the “scripture” with their own hands, then say “This is from God” in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their own hands have written and Woe to them for what they earn.” [Qur'an 2:79]

Commenting on this verse Ibn Kathir, the Qur'anic exegete cites Az-Zuhri who said that `Ubadydullah bin `Abdullah narrated that Ibn `Abbas said, “O Muslims! How could you ask the People of the Book about anything, while the Book of Allah (Qur'an) that He revealed to His Prophet is the most recent Book from Him and you still read it fresh and young, Allah told you that the People of the Book altered the Book of Allah, changed it and wrote another book with their own hands.”

With the Qur'an however, every Muslim and the majority of Orientilists are united in admitting the Qur'ans unchanged verses;

Thus, if the Qur'an had been transmitted only orally for the first century, sizeable variations between texts such as are seen in the hadith and pre-Islamic poetry would be found, and if it had been transmitted only in writing, sizeable variations such as in the different transmissions of the original document of the constitution of Medina would be found. But neither is the case with the Qur'an. There must have been a parallel written transmission limiting variation in the oral transmission to the graphic form, side by side with a parallel oral transmission preserving the written transmission from corruption. - Andrew Rippin (Ed.), Approaches Of The History of Interpretation Of The Qur'an, 1988, Clarendon Press, Oxford, p. 34.

The recension of 'Uthman has been handed down to us unaltered. So carefully, indeed, has it been preserved, that there are no variations of importance, - we might almost say no variations at all, - amongst the innumerable copies of the Koran scattered throughout the vast bounds of empire of Islam. Contending and embittered factions, taking their rise in the murder of 'Uthman himself within a quarter of a century from the death of Muhammad have ever since rent the Muslim world. Yet but one Koran has always been current amongst them.... There is probably in the world no other work which has remained twelve centuries with so pure a text. - The famous Christian missionary from University of Oxford, Sir Willium Muir in the book The Life Of Mohammad.

"Few have failed to be convinced that what is in our copy of the Quran is, in fact, what Muhammad taught, and is expressed in his own words". - Peters, F. E. (Aug., 1991) "The Quest of the Historical Muhammad." International Journal of Middle East Studies, Vol. 23, No. 3, pp. 291-315.

And this is why the Qur'an says;

إِنَّا نَحْنُ نَزَّلْنَا الذِّكْرَ وَإِنَّا لَهُ لَحَافِظُونَ
Verily, It is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (Quran) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).- [Qur'an 15:9]

So just to conclude, if someone did try to claim the Qur'an was changed/corrupted, then they would have a mountain to get past and have to provide evidence against the already strong/established evidence which shows the preservation of the Qur'an.

Abz2000

11-04-2012, 08:38 PM

Welcome to the forum analese, mashaAllah, brother qatada is doing well and taking the time to give detailed answers, I'm just gonna add a little bit about a very important part of the covenant which you mentioned in your first q:

يٰبَنى إِسرٰءيلَ اذكُروا نِعمَتِىَ الَّتى أَنعَمتُ عَلَيكُم وَأَوفوا بِعَهدى أوفِ بِعَهدِكُم وَإِيّٰىَ فَارهَبونِ

O Children of Israel! call to mind the (special) favour which I bestowed upon you, and fulfil your covenant with Me as I fulfil My Covenant with you, and fear none but Me

وَءامِنوا بِما أَنزَلتُ مُصَدِّقًا لِما مَعَكُم وَلا تَكونوا أَوَّلَ كافِرٍ بِهِ ۖ وَلا تَشتَروا بِـٔايٰتى ثَمَنًا قَليلًا وَإِيّٰىَ فَاتَّقونِ

And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

Quran 2:40-41

The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken; I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him. (Deuteronomy 18:15, 18, 19 KJV)

The previous bible verse came with the laws, and the children of Israel accepted unanimously,
Names and places are something which the Quran tells us the cheats among them changed, but the Prophet mentioned is often very exlclusive from the other prophets (pbut) who came after Moses pbuh, all of whom (including Jesus pbuh) followed the laws revealed to Moses pbuh and brought no new law,
Yet we are told in Isaiah (who came after Moses) that there would be a new law:

Hearken unto me, my people; and give ear unto me, O my nation: for a law shall proceed from me, and I will make my judgment to rest for a light of the people. (Isaiah 51:4 KJV)

It is true that many Christians claim that this specific Prophet was Christ, but we can see from their own text that the people were still awaiting that Prophet, and he was NOT Christ pbuh:
(bear in mind that the Levites were entrusted with study of the law and were the most learned in scripture).

And this is the record of John, when the Jews sent priests and Levites from Jerusalem to ask him, ho art thou? And he confessed, and denied not; but confessed, I am not the Christ. And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elias? And he saith, I am not. Art thou that prophet? And he answered, No. (John 1:19-21 KJV)

Muhaba

11-05-2012, 04:48 PM

I tried to post this reply the other day but wasn't able to:

This is a really interesting thread and i hope will provide some insight into Jewish religion/thinking.

I don't know much about Judiasm except that they neither believed in Jesus nor in Prophet Muhammad (SAW) as Prophets/messengers of God although they had been waiting for Prophets that had been prophesized by their messengers. Even at the time of the Prophet Muhammad, the Jews in Madina (Yathrib) had been waiting for the birth of a Prophet about whom they spoke. This was one reason the idolator tribes of Yathrib so readiy believed in Prophet Muhammad (SAW) when they learned he was a Prophet. They had heard from their Jewish neighbors about him! For you to understand what information the Jews had about Prophet Muhammad (SAW), you should look into the history of the Jews living in Yathrib. What information did they have from their books/traditions which made them realize that a Prophet was to be born in their time? What information did they have which helped them recognize that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a true Prophet of God? (The Quran tells the Jews [of that time or of all times] that they know that Prophet Muhammad is a Messenger of God. Allah says in Chapter 2, verse 146:
Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they know their own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know [it].

So those Jews recognized that Prophet Muhammad (SAW) was a messenger of Allah. They recognized him just as one recognizes one's own children!
You wrote:

The reality is that Jews can't accept the Qur'an on the basis of the Torah that they currently have because it contains certain promises and instructions about how to know God in their covenant law and relationship, which they would have to let go of to join Islam.

what are those promises/instructions which keep Jews from accepting Islam? what was the covenant? If you post these it might mke it easier to understand your questiona and provide an answer.

Insaanah

11-05-2012, 06:24 PM

Greetings Annelise, and welcome to the forum.

Originally Posted by Annelise

I come from a Christian background but was challenged about a year ago by the Jewish understanding, so while I'm not Jewish I do believe what they say about who God is and how He has revealed Himself.

Forgive me if I've missed this amongst the posts, but what are your current beliefs about Jesus (peace be upon him)?

The Jews rejected him, and the Christians went to the other extreme of deifying him. As Muslims, we believe in him, love him, honour him and respect him as he was, neither rejected, nor deified, one of the noblest human beings to walk the face of the earth, and one of mightiest messengers of God, sent by God to the Children of Israel. For a Christian to go from one end of the spectrum to the other, seems strange. For you to go in the middle though, to the balanced position, doesn't. :)

Annelise

11-07-2012, 08:37 AM

So many messages to reply to... I'll try and keep it short for each of them. Thanks to everyone for writing! Qatada, I still owe you a close reading of all your posts from the start, and I look forward to replying to them with more depth. WRITER, I'm also going to need to look into the thoughts you had about the Jews in Medina. What are the historical sources or texts for what you said? Please forgive me for answering the other posts in the meantime, because I don't need to sit and read as much for those conversations as for these two.

YusufNoor, regarding the passage you posted, I do believe it's true that the Israelites were often stubborn and disobedient. It's important to realise, though, that the prophets were part of a righteous group who preserved the Jewish understanding of God and of His Law throughout history, so that people like Nehemiah could know what it was and so that his generation could turn to it wholeheartedly. God gave some really beautiful blessings to the generation who were rebuilding the Temple around that time, especially in the book of Haggai. Zechariah is the same, though its message is more complex (it's a long book), and the description of how God made one nation holy so that the whole world could come to know Him in close relationship is really amazing in that book. I don't know what else you were trying to point out from that passage, but let me know where you want to go from those thoughts of how I read it. God deserves our wholehearted obedience, so He always wanted the majority of Israel to turn back to the commandments. With that I definitely agree. I don't believe that the testimony of who He is ever left them, though.

The one thing I really wanted to ask in my first post was how a Jew in the Middle Ages could accept Muhammad on the basis of the Jewish commandments, if they were actually no longer in possession of those commandments in an accurate form. Does that make sense?

Perseveranze, I think you make a really important point about checking each claim on the basis of its own evidence. I didn't say that the Qur'an was changed, though. I just suggested for the purpose of analogy (and I hope it wasn't disrespectful) that if someone claimed that Muhammad himself had added to the visions- that the first things he taught were partly from God, and partly from himself- you wouldn't accept that claim without lots of reasons to do so. But this is how the Jews would have felt when they were told that the Judiams they followed was kind of true but actually corrupted. That doesn't mean it couldn't have been corrupted, but if it was... then the Jews had no way left of testing Muhammad according to the actual Torah. So why ask them to do so? I don't understand it, and I know you must have some well thought-through perspectives about it, that's why I ask.

Abz2000, it's hard for me to reply to you unless I know how much of the Jewish scriptures you think are accurate. You quoted Deuteronomy and Isaiah as proofs, but do you actually believe those books are from God and uncorrupted? Otherwise it's hard to know how to answer your thoughts.

Insaanah, I really liked your post, I've never thought of it that way before. As someone who has always believed in a God who did not make Himself incarnate as a man, it might be hard to comprehend what it means for a Christian to believe in Jesus. But I was taught that he wasn't just a man. The affection I had for 'Jesus' was not actually affection for a historical person in his own right, but actually a love for God, flawed as my understanding of Him was. So I actually have never had a relationship with the person Jesus, it all belonged to God. If I met Jesus I would have love for him as for any other human, and if he really was a righteous and God-fearing person then I would respect him, but it would have no relationship to the worship that belongs only to God and that I once thought belonged to Jesus as well. It doesn't. It's not his and I never intended it towards a created being. That's why I don't see it as natural or right to meet in the middle, so to speak :) For me, my belief in any of the prophets actually comes from the testimony of the Jewish tradition about them, and they don't accept Jesus as a prophet. If I accepted Islam as the community in which God has made His revelation clear and preserved it, then of course I would see Jesus as a prophet. But I can't see how a Jew could guard the Torah (as they currently have it) and still accept either Christianity or Islam, so I don't know how either of those religions could be true. One of my Christian friends keeps telling me things about Jesus' miracles and nobility that are very similar to what people here are telling me about Muhammad, but those things aren't the way in which the Jews were supposed to test a claim of revelation... as far as I know. So I do believe that Christianity and Islam have a lot of kernels of truth in them, and that people in those faiths have a real experience with God, but I'm listening to Judaism for their understanding of what it means that we should submit to our creator and know Him as He reveals His blessing to us. What do you think?

Annelise

11-07-2012, 08:41 AM

When I typed 'Judiams', obviously I meant Judaism... that was a double typo.

Annelise

11-07-2012, 08:50 AM

P.S. If anyone can really hear and understand the question I'm trying to ask... whether or not you agree with it... could you help me out and put my question in your own words, with better clarity and depth than my own?

Independent

11-07-2012, 11:48 AM

Originally Posted by Annelise

Forgive me if I get this wrong - but is your question this:

Muslims state that the coming of Jesus and Muhammad are foretold by the Torah/Bible. However, they also say that the Torah/Bible are corrupted and not reliable as texts.

So your dilemma is a logical one: how can a corrupted text ever be used to corroborate Jesus or Muhammad as genuine prophets one way or the other? Once you no longer believe the text is reliable, then nothing can be trusted and you can't cherrypick.

And with regard specifically to those who do trust in the Torah (ie Jews), and who don't believe it is corrupted, you are asking how they can ever accept Jesus/Muhammad as prophets, seeing as they don't fit the criteria as laid down in the Torah? Again, a logical dilemma.

جوري

11-07-2012, 12:00 PM

:welcome: aboard Annelise- I just chanced upon your posts - and they're impressive and sincere they certainly should define the gold standard for honest queries.

- Qatada -

11-07-2012, 12:21 PM

Originally Posted by Independent

Muslims have two views on the issue of the Jewish texts:

1 - That their text has been distorted.
2 - Their context has been distorted and many aspects of it has been forgotten.

Either way, we believe there are remnants of the texts remaining within Jewish scripture which do mention Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon him) either directly or indirectly. We also believe it has been a strong efforts of many Israelites to discredit Jesus and Muhammad, Jesus because he was a staunch opponent of the corruption of the Rabbis during his era, and of Muhammad (peace be upon him) because he is non-jewish, and also a staunch opponent of the corruption of the Rabbis.

Through the histories of both Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) - we see many Israelites attempting to assasinate them but were -according to the Quran- unsuccessful. But they had killed many Prophets prior to that (John the Baptist, Zakariah his father, etc) for similar reasons. Their own scripture is a proof against them since God has already described them as a hard headed nation, and a people who rebelled and earned God's wrath even during their best generation (the generation of Moses).

And with regard specifically to those who do trust in the Torah (ie Jews), and who don't believe it is corrupted, you are asking how they can ever accept Jesus/Muhammad as prophets, seeing as they don't fit the criteria as laid down in the Torah? Again, a logical dilemma.

As mentioned above, it is for the laypeople amongst the Jews/Israelites to study and question their texts. Why do they believe in Moses? Is it simply because their forefathers claimed to follow this way? Why don't they find the truth for themselves?

Why not look at who Jesus and Muhammad (peace be upon them) were? Jesus is also an Israelite, so its not too difficult for Jews to even try to research into him.

Furthermore, many Indians forefathers' were Hindus, does that mean that Indians can only be Hindus because their forefathers were? No, it means they have to be truth seekers themselves instead of blind following the elders. This is exactly what Jesus was extremely against, he hated that the Israelites blindly followed their elders, even when their elders were doing wrong.

Every generation has to be a truthseeker for their own good and benefit. You cannot shift the blame onto another on the Day of Judgment when you will meet God. Every person will be payed back for their own bad or good actions, and none will be wronged.

Annelise

11-07-2012, 12:35 PM

Independent... that's exactly it. Thanks for your clarity and for reading so carefully there! I feel that until this question is answered, there's no way to have a conversation between the two faith systems, whether I would convey what Jews believe their covenant with God is compelling them to do, or whether Muslims would take texts from the Tanach as proof for the Qur'an's message.

Qatada, I think you're totally correct that people need to question the faith that was passed down to them, and question why they believe in their own texts. Those are issues that we really need to grapple with, and they're hard questions. But when you said that parts of the Jewish scriptures are corrupted and parts retain glimpses of the real Torah or real revelations from God... that poses a separate question. Since the Jewish ability to test any new prophets is based on their obedience to the commandments that they have, then how can they use parts of their scriptures to affirm a prophet while deciding in the meantime that other parts are false? How can they sift what is corrupted from what is true, on the basis of the faith they have? I feel that the only way for a Jew to take on Islam is to first reject the authenticity current day Judaism and the present version of the Torah... but if they do that, then they are not really listening to any part of the previous revelation (which still exists somewhere among those verses) at all. They're listening to a whole new testimony, in the mouth of the followers of Islam, and then dividing up the Jewish scriptures based on that.

شَادِنُ , that's a really kind welcome... thanks. I think it shows your own sincerity: even in a few words you spoke of faith in God as something that deserves a lot of honesty and humility, which turns out to be a really precious part of our offering to Him. It's a blessing to share that with you, and I pray that we will be able to keep standing in the purity of His light and truth, in only devotion to Him, even more.

Annelise

11-07-2012, 12:46 PM

Oh, and here's something that is incredibly important. Independent, you called it a logical dilemma... but in a Jewish person's relationship with God this is better understood as a moral dilemma. The logic doesn't only matter because they don't want to be fooled. It matters because it relates to a commandment that they believe (and Islam affirms, in some ways) is from God.

Annelise

11-07-2012, 12:53 PM

"Their own scripture is a proof against them since God has already described them as a hard headed nation, and a people who rebelled and earned God's wrath even during their best generation (the generation of Moses)."

When the Bible (that we now have) describes these things, it never suggests that God has taken His covenant away from Israel. The same prophets who criticise their people so harshly speak about an incredible restoration of their nation's knowledge of God, and in the meantime they repeat the promise that God's testimony will not leave the mouths of them or their descendants forever. The fact that these prophets were speaking and that Jewish people took their words, however harsh, preserved them as scripture, and often tried to live in the light of their message, is a historical reality and an important thing to remember. Other nations totally have a place in that, but Jews and Gentiles who love God have two different roles in serving Him. If that's what He chose and designed then it's not something we can question, but it is something to lift to Him for His glory and praise.

- Qatada -

11-07-2012, 01:15 PM

Annelise, there is a whole thread dedicated to the discussion of the Torah being corrupted (based on the Torah and Tannakh sources).

One example Ansar quotes from the Bible is the following:

Prophet Moses went up to the mount and supplicated there for forty days. Let's examine the narrative in the Tanakh:

Shemot/Exodus 32:1-6
When the people saw that Moses was late in coming down from the mountain, the people gathered against Aaron, and they said to him: "Come on! Make us gods that will go before us, because this man Moses, who brought us up from the land of Egypt we don't know what has become of him."

Aaron said to them, "Remove the golden earrings that are on the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters and bring them [those earrings] to me."

And all the people stripped themselves of the golden earrings that were on their ears and brought them to Aaron.

He took [them] from their hand[s], fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made it into a molten calf, upon which they said: "These are your gods, O Israel, who have brought you up from the land of Egypt!"

When Aaron saw [this], he built an altar in front of it, and Aaron proclaimed and said: "Tomorrow shall be a festival to the Lord."

On the next day they arose early, offered up burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings, and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and they got up to make merry.

So even after God feed the Israelits and parted the sea for their escape, this is their display of ingratitude. And these were his immediate followers who had witnessed these miracles themselves.

On the verge of punishing them for their transgression, at the last moment, Prophet Moses reprimanded God at
Shemot 32:14 The Lord [then] reconsidered the evil He had said He would do to His people.

And in some versions it is translated as 'repented' instead of reconsidered. The idea of God repenting or reconsidering His already perfect decree, after being corrected by His servant, is another one of the unfathomable notions on the Torah.

See the full thread of discussion here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/comparat...ted-torah.html

We see a few points there which i've highlighted in red.

If God is described as 'repentant' or 'reconsidering' his decisions, it shows that the Tanakh is describing God as either imperfect (which is blasphemy), or as a God who is easily able to abrogate His laws whenever He wants with a rebellious nation (in that context God would be reconsidering something with the Israelites). What the Israelites don't realise is that God can easily change His covenant with them when they are known to be rebellious from the start. So Muslims will say that the covenant of God is still possibly with the Israelites, but it is now through the Quran.

Anyway check that thread out, it seems interesting. :)

Independent

11-07-2012, 01:33 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

Oh, and here's something that is incredibly important. Independent, you called it a logical dilemma... but in a Jewish person's relationship with God this is better understood as a moral dilemma. The logic doesn't only matter because they don't want to be fooled. It matters because it relates to a commandment that they believe (and Islam affirms, in some ways) is from God.

Apologies - for me it might be just a 'logical' dilemma, but for you that's a serious understatement.

Annelise

11-07-2012, 01:35 PM

The way in which Jews understand this passage is that God was giving Moses an opportunity to plead for his people; if he hadn't begged for God not to give them the punishment that many of them deserved, then he would have failed as a prophet. So God is being described in terms that humans can understand (that doesn't mean that in His essence He is within human comprehension): He gave a judgment based on what was deserved, and then He showed mercy instead. The fact is that Judaism knows and affirms constantly that God is unchanging and all knowing and beyond our ability to grasp, even though He relates so closely with us. So this particular passage must be read in the light of that awareness.

I don't want to go into the issue of proofs for whether the Tanach is corrupted or not at the moment, because as you say there are already endless discussions about that. And they are important. But this question is different, and I believe it's really central. If a Jew reads all of that material and comes to the decision that actually, it has been changed and is not from God, or at least only partially from Him... then how can they appeal to those same scriptures (which they no longer believe in, or at least they don't know which parts are true and which aren't) as a reason to accept Islam?

Annelise

11-07-2012, 01:46 PM

Independent... I think both aspects are part of it. For someone who knows God, and knows Him within the context of a faith system, the commandments are really important and the function of logic is to know how to apply them. But of course no one can stay within a faith in anything that they actually feel is completely contradictory. So logic and experience both come into it.

I find it important to deal with the issues separately, though. When I started questioning the divinity of Jesus, and therefore all of my faith in Christianity, it was an issue of logical contradiction... but I had experienced those before, and held on to the detail of my faith just because I believed that my experience of knowing God affirmed them (despite my small knowledge). The reason why Judaism challenged me in a way that I actually followed was because of the moral issue: if you really live to worship God, you can't worship a human by default when you don't actually know if he was creator or created.

That said, I recognised two different questions. You can't just take off the New Testament and be left with the Tanach; you can't suddenly accept the testimony of Judaism if you never accepted it before. So one question was an 'intra-faith' question: if the Tanach is true as written, then is it Christianity or Judaism that is the true fulfilment of it? And the second is about whether the Tanach was from God in the first place. I decided to keep the second question totally separate from the first, and to deal with it last, because it has to be dealt with quite differently depending on whether Christianity or Orthodox Judaism is the context for considering it.

YusufNoor

11-07-2012, 02:09 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

YusufNoor, regarding the passage you posted, I do believe it's true that the Israelites were often stubborn and disobedient. It's important to realise, though, that the prophets were part of a righteous group who preserved the Jewish understanding of God and of His Law throughout history, so that people like Nehemiah could know what it was and so that his generation could turn to it wholeheartedly. God gave some really beautiful blessings to the generation who were rebuilding the Temple around that time, especially in the book of Haggai. Zechariah is the same, though its message is more complex (it's a long book), and the description of how God made one nation holy so that the whole world could come to know Him in close relationship is really amazing in that book. I don't know what else you were trying to point out from that passage, but let me know where you want to go from those thoughts of how I read it. God deserves our wholehearted obedience, so He always wanted the majority of Israel to turn back to the commandments. With that I definitely agree. I don't believe that the testimony of who He is ever left them, though.

The one thing I really wanted to ask in my first post was how a Jew in the Middle Ages could accept Muhammad on the basis of the Jewish commandments, if they were actually no longer in possession of those commandments in an accurate form. Does that make sense?

Shalom,

one of the reasons i use that post is that it answers a question that many non-Muslims think Islam lies about, the killing of the Prophets:

26 “But they didn’t obey you. Instead, they turned against you. They turned their backs on your law. They killed your prophets. The prophets had warned them to turn back to you. But they did very evil things that dishonored you.

another is that the Babylonian exile is, in my opinion, the event that reveals the answer to the question of where today's various forms of Judaism begin. the Decalogue was clearly understood before then, but i can find no reference to there being 613 Mitzvahs before then. another issue is that many Jews are of the belief that up until that time, the entire written Torah, as well the entire oral Torah, were BOTH preserved since their delivery. evidence in the Tanakh itself proves that is false, as well as historical commentary from Jewish sources indicating that is unlikely. i'll get to these later, please concentrate on what others are posting. just ponder the concepts that i have set out.

you asked:

If Jews can only accept Islam by deciding that there are flaws in the written Torah and the Jewish tradition, and then they might come to Islam for the reasons that anyone else in the world might do so, then why were Jews commanded by the Qur'an to accept Islam on the basis of the knowledge they already had?

a simple answer is that Islam should equal the original Torah, once additions and "traditions" are removed. the "spirit" of the Torah is also important. of import here would be the understanding of Torah by Hillel as opposed to Shammai.

you asked:

Zechariah is the same, though its message is more complex (it's a long book), and the description of how God made one nation holy so that the whole world could come to know Him in close relationship is really amazing in that book.

one could say that the Diaspora was a crucial element in exposing Judaism to the world. since the final destruction of Judea though, how exactly have the Jews acted in a manner that is "spreading the knowledge of the One True God?" technically, you can only become a Jew if your mother was Jewish. think about that. how "active" are Jews in preaching Torah to the rest of the world? ponder...

background, have you read Who Wrote the Bible? by Richard Elliott Friedman? it is a fascinating book, and a superb overview of the Documentary Hypothesis:

http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Ri.../dp/0060630353

Peace

Annelise

11-07-2012, 02:31 PM

Do you mean you believe that apart from the Decalogue, all of the mitzvot (both written and traditional) were completely invented after the Babylonian exile?

We should talk sometime about the oral Law in Judaism, because there are some big misconceptions about it... but I don't want to distract from the points at hand.

Can you expand more on what you're saying about the 'spirit' of the law, and the understandings of Torah by Hillel and Shammai in that context?

Anyone can become a Jew by converting, and anyone can also follow the God who revealed Himself to Israel without becoming Jewish. Their specific covenant is just for them (and whoever joins them), but salvation and relationship with God are open to everyone. As to how the Jews are meant to be a blessing to the nations, and yet they often live very separately, the Jewish understanding is that God chose to bless the world by having one nation stand separate. It's a responsibility to serve God and the other nations. When the Jewish people are physically restored as they are still hoping will happen, there are many prophecies about how the whole earth will stream to join in with this and will be blessed by the light that comes from what God has done. Jews don't want to mess with that plan because it comes from God, so as much as their religion requires them to live separately from others at the moment, they do it. They pass the message on to their own children. But there are so, so many Jews out there who are living lives that honour God and bless other people, just by being who they are in their workplaces or communities. They may not be public figures, and they may be very modest in their faith, but it has a real impact on anyone who is willing to ask and hear more.

YusufNoor

11-07-2012, 03:23 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

Do you mean you believe that apart from the Decalogue, all of the mitzvot (both written and traditional) were completely invented after the Babylonian exile?

i wouldn't get that specific, but i am saying that Judaism, as we know it today, originates in Babylon.

We should talk sometime about the oral Law in Judaism, because there are some big misconceptions about it... but I don't want to distract from the points at hand.

Can you expand more on what you're saying about the 'spirit' of the law, and the understandings of Torah by Hillel and Shammai in that context?

Shammai taught that strict adherence to "law", was how you best expressed your Judaism. Hillel felt that Judaism was meant to answer the question, "am i my brothers keeper?" in the absolute positive.

Anyone can become a Jew by converting, and anyone can also follow the God who revealed Himself to Israel without becoming Jewish. Their specific covenant is just for them (and whoever joins them), but salvation and relationship with God are open to everyone. As to how the Jews are meant to be a blessing to the nations, and yet they often live very separately, the Jewish understanding is that God chose to bless the world by having one nation stand separate. It's a responsibility to serve God and the other nations. When the Jewish people are physically restored as they are still hoping will happen, there are many prophecies about how the whole earth will stream to join in with this and will be blessed by the light that comes from what God has done. Jews don't want to mess with that plan because it comes from God, so as much as their religion requires them to live separately from others at the moment, they do it. They pass the message on to their own children. But there are so, so many Jews out there who are living lives that honour God and bless other people, just by being who they are in their workplaces or communities. They may not be public figures, and they may be very modest in their faith, but it has a real impact on anyone who is willing to ask and hear more.

Shalom,

my favorite tradition on Hillel is this:

Rabbi Shammai was an engineer, known for the strictness of his views. The Talmud tells that a gentile came to Shammai saying that he would convert to Judaism if Shammai could teach him the whole Torah in the time that he could stand on one foot. Shammai drove him away with a builder's measuring stick! Hillel, on the other hand, converted the gentile by telling him, "That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it."

http://www.jewfaq.org/sages.htm

you can't rely on the Law, if that Law is not the original Law. you MAY live how you feel Hashem wants you to, and then review review the Law to see where is in accord with revelation. but you have to determine between what is revelation and what is a "derivative" of revelation.

as for, "what is a Jew?"

It is important to note that being a Jew has nothing to do with what you believe or what you do. A person born to non-Jewish parents who has not undergone the formal process of conversion but who believes everything that Orthodox Jews believe and observes every law and custom of Judaism is still a non-Jew, even in the eyes of the most liberal movements of Judaism, and a person born to a Jewish mother who is an atheist and never practices the Jewish religion is still a Jew, even in the eyes of the ultra-Orthodox. In this sense, Judaism is more like a nationality than like other religions, and being Jewish is like a citizenship.

First, traditional Judaism maintains that a person is a Jew if his mother is a Jew, regardless of who his father is. The liberal movements, on the other hand, allow Jewish status to pass through the mother or the father if the child was raised Jewish. Thus, if the child of a Jewish father and a Christian mother is raised Jewish (or even just adopts Jewish identity as an adult, like Congresswoman Gabrielle Giffords), the child is a Jew according to the Reform movement (see their position here), but not according to the Orthodox movement. On the other hand, if the child of a Christian father and a Jewish mother is not raised Jewish, the child is a Jew according to the Orthodox movement, but not according to the Reform movement. The matter becomes even more complicated, because the status of that interfaith child's children also comes into question.

Second, the more traditional movements do not always acknowledge the validity of conversions by the more liberal movements. A more liberal movement might not follow the procedures required by the more traditional movement, thereby invalidating the conversion. For example, Orthodoxy requires acceptance of the yoke of Torah (observance of Jewish law as Orthodoxy understands it), while other movements would not teach the same laws that Orthodoxy does and might not require observance. The Conservative movement requires circumcision and immersion in a mikvah, which is not always required in Reform conversions.

http://www.jewfaq.org/whoisjew.htm

basically, Jews cannot even agree on what IS a Jew. you can be a Jew and still be an atheist.

on the other hand, one is a Muslim IF they follow Qur'an and Sunnah, PERIOD. one who adds a title to their Islam is not adhering to the straight path. Sunni is NOT a title, it is merely a way of acknowledging that one is not Shii'a. it doesn't matter who your mom or dad is, what your race is or your social standing.

peace

Annelise

11-07-2012, 03:41 PM

I think that both approaches are important, as you described in the story of Shammai and Hillel. The reason is that God's commandments really matter, and they shouldn't be treated with anything less than the highest respect... they shouldn't be lessened for the sake of anyone. Yet there are many people who are trapped and taken captive by unhelpful beliefs and understandings. How can you do anything but welcome them, speak gently with people, engage with sincerity wherever it is found in the smallest part? Both the importance of guarding Torah standards and the importance of welcoming people wherever they are at are realities because of the confusion in our world.

Regarding the spirit of the law, it is a really big part of the Jewish legal process. The lawmakers in Jewish communities, and the common people with them, are in a constant conversation about how to bring every part of their lives closer to the heart of the Torah and the heart of God; how to preserve these things in a living form for the generations to come, staying steady in old paths and respecting decisions made before them while also letting go of the mistakes made in the past. But when you described feelings of revelation from God as the guiding feature of which commandments of the Torah are true...... Judaism is actually an experience of surrender to commandments that may or may not make sense to us, given by God Himself to a whole nation to follow together as a part of the way they tell their unique story. If humans can't even understand the intricacies of natural science well enough to create a living creature from scratch out of various elements, how can we presume to understand the nature of spiritual realities beyond our own perception? Yes, we have to test the message, and find reasons to trust the messenger. But Judaism holds that a set of laws was given at a mountain after the Israelites came out of Egypt with God's miraculous help. Once you are willing to believe that, then the commandments are absolutely central in your testing of further revelation. If you don't have access to those commandments because they have not been preserved, then you have nothing to work with according to the very fabric of Judaism. If you don't think the commandments are central, then yes, you can test the new revelation based on what you feel were the best parts of your old belief... but that isn't the Jewish way of thinking (unless you talk with really liberal Jews, who make their own laws essentially). And it certainly wasn't in the Middle Ages either.

Annelise

11-07-2012, 03:46 PM

'Jewishness' is a really intricate identification, and it doesn't fall into modern categories of 'religion'. It is an ethnicity linked with a covenant, which has implications of faith. But not all Jews keep the covenant, and certainly not all people who believe in Israel's God are Jews.

It might make more sense if you think back to the time when you believe the Jews did have a covenant with God that had not been superseded by Islam. They had a really important message to share with the world, that God is the only power who deserves our trust and the affection of our worship. Why did God choose them to begin with? It wasn't to exclude everyone else from relationship with Himself. Jews believe that the same is true until this day.

Annelise

11-07-2012, 03:50 PM

Regarding the cultures of the world, they all have strengths and weaknesses, but I really look forward to the time when the whole world is united in the knowledge of God... and every culture is therefore devoted to expressing that in its own intricate and unique ways. A kaleidoscope of experiences and expressions, but all unified in truth. That will be a really amazing thing to share.

YusufNoor

11-07-2012, 04:18 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

But Judaism holds that a set of laws was given at a mountain after the Israelites came out of Egypt with God's miraculous help. Once you are willing to believe that, then the commandments are absolutely central in your testing of further revelation.

Shalom,

i agree. what Laws though? or maybe, which Laws? what was done at Sinai? what was added after? the 5 books called the Pentateuch or Torah now, were NOT given at Sinai. thus, we have to peel away, like layers of an onion, what has been embossed over that revelation. once that is done, we can compare further Revelation to see if it is consistent with it.

i would say that Islam is VERY consistent with it and that neither Talmud nor Rabbinic Judaism come as close. Islam is nearer to the Decalogue while today's Judaism has added so much that it is more a religion of man. i see Prophet Isa ibn Marriam, peace be upon them both, making this case in his preaching.

the "core" of Judaism is the 613 Mitzvahs, but those were NOT revealed at Sinai. ergo, they are additions. if we use the Decalogue, we are on, what i would call, a more solid foundation.

peace

Annelise

11-07-2012, 04:23 PM

Why do you believe the ten commandments were spoken from a mountain to some people in a desert? And why do you think they have anything to do with what our Creator wants from us? I think these are really foundational questions... the reasons we each have for trusting and believing even just those two things.

YusufNoor

11-07-2012, 05:05 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

Why do you believe the ten commandments were spoken from a mountain to some people in a desert?

not saying, "on a mountain," per se. but delivered to humanity by Hashem/Allah through Prophet Moses, pbuh. why do i believe? i don't think i ever didn't believe so i don't think i can provide you with a rational explanation. plus i loved the movie as a kid.

And why do you think they have anything to do with what our Creator wants from us?

elementary my Dear Watson, they are the foundation for all relevant knowledge. God exists, recognize Him, obey Him and treat others in a manner consistent with that knowledge. "do unto others" so to speak.

I think these are really foundational questions... the reasons we each have for trusting and believing even just those two things.

Shalom,

we are lost with paying heed to the Decalogue, yet blessed and instructed through them.

peace

- Qatada -

11-07-2012, 06:10 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

God chose the Israelites just as He chose Adam, and Abraham - meaning He chooses whoever He wills (hence our willingness to accept the Arabs as carriers of Gods message). Infact, God even raised satan to a high rank until satan himself became a racist, disobeying God and fell after breaking his covenant with God.

I understand where your confusion is; you wonder why God would choose the Israelites and say He will keep an everlasting covenant with them, and then abandon that covenant for a new people - the Arabs?

Well according the Old Testament, we read:

"The time is coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a NEW COVENANT with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah." (Jeremiah* 31:31)

This means that God will not abandon His covenant with the Israelites, but He will make a NEW one with them. We as Muslims believe that God made a new covenant with the Jews through His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him). Because God/Allah says in the Quran:

And they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah. And that is the correct religion.

Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of the Scripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternally therein. Those are the worst of creatures.

Indeed, they who have believed and done righteous deeds - those are the best of creatures.

Their reward with Allah will be gardens of perpetual residence beneath which rivers flow, wherein they will abide forever, Allah being pleased with them and they with Him. That is for whoever has feared his Lord.

(Quran Surah Bayyinah [the Clear Proof]) 98)

- Qatada -

11-07-2012, 06:29 PM

I forgot to add, the Quran is extremely detailed in regard to the Israelites; their history, behaviour and secrets are exposed in the Quran in a way unmatched by any other text.

So one thing Jews should really ponder is - how did Muhammad (peace be upon him) get all this secret and divine information, while he wasn't a magician nor a liar nor Jewish? If he is supposedly a false prophet, or simply a gentile prophet - why does God - according to the Divine Law revealed to Muhammad (peace be upon him) command that the Jews follow his guidance over even Mosaic law?

Infact the guidance of the Qur'an is most similar to the law of Moses, because Islam is a continuation of the message of Moses. ALL Prophets of God were Muslims (submitters to God) and not exclusive to a certain race. All these things make logical sense, since Abraham was not a Jew, since the word Isra'eel (if i remember correctly, it means 'repentant one') was the name of Jacob (who is the grandson of Abraham). Hence the Jewish race only began AFTER Abraham.

The main characteristic of Abraham was Monotheism, and loyalty to God. This is what faith and the covenant of God depend upon, not exclusivity of race. This is what makes Islam beautiful, that you can be part of the same covenant with God without having to be limited to a different race with different laws.

My main point is - there are more than enough proofs for the Jews to realise that God chooses sincere believers, and He has not broken His covenant with the Jews if they fulfill their side of the covenant with Him.

Furthermore, if the Jews fear that they will be punished for breaking the Sabbath (a law which has now been abrogated according to Islam) - then the Jews who have become Muslim and have broken the Sabbath - they have not been punished like the Jews of Bani Isra'eel of earlier times. This is a hint that its possible that God has abrogated this law of the Sabbath.

In regard to the rest of the covenant and 10 commandments, then they are all commandments in the Qur'an still today (with the exception of the Sabbath law).

Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them.

And do not approach immoralities/shamefulness - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." (Quran 6:151)

Insaanah

11-07-2012, 07:03 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

Insaanah, I really liked your post, I've never thought of it that way before. As someone who has always believed in a God who did not make Himself incarnate as a man, it might be hard to comprehend what it means for a Christian to believe in Jesus. But I was taught that he wasn't just a man. The affection I had for 'Jesus' was not actually affection for a historical person in his own right, but actually a love for God, flawed as my understanding of Him was. So I actually have never had a relationship with the person Jesus, it all belonged to God. If I met Jesus I would have love for him as for any other human, and if he really was a righteous and God-fearing person then I would respect him, but it would have no relationship to the worship that belongs only to God and that I once thought belonged to Jesus as well. It doesn't. It's not his and I never intended it towards a created being. That's why I don't see it as natural or right to meet in the middle, so to speak For me, my belief in any of the prophets actually comes from the testimony of the Jewish tradition about them, and they don't accept Jesus as a prophet. If I accepted Islam as the community in which God has made His revelation clear and preserved it, then of course I would see Jesus as a prophet. But I can't see how a Jew could guard the Torah (as they currently have it) and still accept either Christianity or Islam, so I don't know how either of those religions could be true. One of my Christian friends keeps telling me things about Jesus' miracles and nobility that are very similar to what people here are telling me about Muhammad, but those things aren't the way in which the Jews were supposed to test a claim of revelation... as far as I know. So I do believe that Christianity and Islam have a lot of kernels of truth in them, and that people in those faiths have a real experience with God, but I'm listening to Judaism for their understanding of what it means that we should submit to our creator and know Him as He reveals His blessing to us. What do you think?

Thank you for your post.

I'd just like to clarify mine, in case there was any misunderstanding about it.

Rejecting Jesus (peace be upon him) is one wrong extreme (as practised by Jews).

Deifying him is the other wrong extreme (as practised by Christians).

Muslims do not reject him, nor deify him. Divinity belongs to God, alone, and all worship is for God alone.

Muslims respect Jesus (peace be upon him) and believe in him as he was, nothing less, and nothing more. Neither rejected or blasphemed, nor deified. Not divine in any way. One of the most noble and purest of humanity to ever walk the earth, and one of the mightiest messengers of Allah, sent to the Children of Israel. We believe he was born miraculously of the virgin Mary (peace be upon her), and that he is the messiah. We do not however, believe that he died or was crucified.

Allah has sent a succession of prophets to people throughout the ages, with guidance to show us how He wants us to live and worship Him. The messengers and Prophets conveyed the guidance from God to the people, showed how to apply that guidance and implement it into our lives, were role models of behaviour, and leaders of the believers at the times they were sent. They were living human examples for the believers, and were the noblest of humanity, chosen and sent by God for that purpose.

Muslims believe in all the prophets God sent to guide and warn people, and do not reject any of them, from Adam, to the last and final prophet, Muhammad, peace be on them all. We do not reject or discriminate against any of them. They were the purest and noblest of humanity and were not divine in any way. God sent all the prophets with the same message and not different messages. The message was: to submit wholeheartedly to God and to worship Him and Him alone, without any associates in, or parts to, His Divinity, and to obey the prophet. They taught that people should be under no misperception that they can commit themselves to God as their Lord, and then combine this with accepting others as their Lord, or associating others in His Divinity, either by deeming certain humans to be incarnations of Him, to be His sons, or any other way.

So Islam is not a new faith but is the same Ultimate Truth that God revealed to all prophets, including Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them). Thus Islam is not named after a specific person (like Christianity, Buddhism), nor after a certain race or place (like Judaism, Hinduism), but is named by God Himself, and the meaning loosely translates as 'submission to God', which is what every Prophet and their righteous followers did, from amongst all times, all races and all peoples. That in itself is one fraction of the evidence that it was the way of all the Prophets from the beginning.

Whenever God's message got distorted, or forgotten, a new messenger was sent, not with any new/changed core beliefs, but reinforcing the actual core beliefs that God sent, confirming the true parts what came before, correcting misconceptions and wrong beliefs that had crept in, with possible small changes in ancillary rules/regulations. God required that whenever a new messenger was sent, that messenger should be followed along with any new scripture given to him. This chain of messengers culminates in prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him). It is because Allah has promised to preserve the Qur'an that there won't be any need for a new Prophet, because the message is, and will remain, in tact.

Since the time of prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), who is the last and final prophet and messenger, Gods message is available unchanged and unadulterated, for the entire world, until the end of time. Prophet Muhammad wasn't sent as prophet and messenger for a specific group of people and specific time (e.g. as Moses and Jesus were to the Children of Israel), but he was sent for all the world, for all time, from his prophethood until the Day of Judgement. Thus he is the last, not first, prophet of Islam; a messenger to all mankind, to be followed until the end of time.

The Jews throughout history have rejected some of those who God sent to convey His message; some they rejected, some they blasphemed and some they killed. To reject the one who God sent, is a very serious sin. It is for this rebellious behaviour that they have been chastised in the Qur'an, as well as those in authority changing their scriptures.

Peace.

Annelise

11-08-2012, 02:26 AM

Hi Qatada. An alternative possibility is that your prophet had met Jews and heard their own stories, some of which are contained in Tanach and some which were not. He could then have pieced together his own version of events from all the Jewish ideas he had heard and considered. When you say that something is secret and divine information, though, I know that to you it is true because it's written in the Qur'an... but how could I test whether his information about the Jews was from hearing stories or from receiving revelation? How could I know if it's true or imagined, whenever it contradicts the Jewish version? In the same way, how can I compare the Qur'an to the true law of Moses if I don't know what Moses' law was?

I'm juggling exams and assignments at the moment, but I want to say again that I really appreciate all the information you gave me to follow at the start of this conversation. I'll be able to really sit down and read it more deeply in a couple of weeks when the summer break starts :)

I think I understand what you're saying about God not breaking His original covenant with the Jews, but simply placing it in the Qur'an, in the hands of the Arabs, and opening it up to the rest of the world as well. It's hard to respond to this unless we know what the original covenant was and what methods were put in place to preserve it so that people could respond to it in any generation. You say "they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah"... but the Jews believe that the covenant law was more complex than that. There are many similarities and many differences in Jewish and Muslim legislation, and the details are important. It's also very important to Jews that if they are a nation of witnesses, they must never deny or forget that... just like it's important to Muslims to point to Islam as the repository of God's truth. So you can understand the very high caution, and the difficulty in the claim that their religion is not pure enough to test a new prophet by... and yet that they must.

I'm going to ask YusufNoor if we can talk about the oral Law within Judaism, even though the basis of that conversation doesn't interact with the premises of Islam. It's complex, but like Islam, Judaism works on the authority of both a text and a community/tradition. I hope that such a conversation might give a clearer understanding of how I think the Torah was meant to be preserved and how Jews in our time are bound to test the revelations of God, as long as they are within their religion at all.

Annelise

11-08-2012, 02:32 AM

Thank you so much Insaanah. I know that you meant that Jesus was neither God nor simply another human being, but a great prophet who deserves our respect. My question would be... how am I supposed to know that? You're saying that it's true, but you believe that because Islam considers him a prophet. Unless I can accept the witness of Islam for other reasons, I have no way of knowing that Jesus was in fact a special person and that the most balanced approach to him is to honour him as a great and noble man.

I never met him, and different religions imagine him so differently... so how could I know that he was any different from any other person?

Annelise

11-08-2012, 02:39 AM

YusufNoor, you said that Judaism is essentially a man made religion because of everything that has been added. WRITER also asked me to explain what the promises/instructions are which keep Jews from accepting Islam, and what I believe the covenant was. So I'm wondering, even though this conversation is between Islam and Judaism... would you mind discussing the oral Law with me from within the context of Judaism?

If we were to assume that the written Tanach is all true, do you think that it would be better to accept the Talmud or to ignore it like the Karaites did? I'd really like to hear your thoughts on that matter, hypothetical as it is, just based on the verses in Tanach and the nature of that book in itself. In the meantime, I'll try to find a way to answer WRITER's question in a way that also explains to you why I feel the legal tradition in Judaism is legitimate and important, even though it's partially made up of human traditions (designed to preserve the spirit of the law) and partially a preservation of real experiences and commandments from God.

YusufNoor

11-08-2012, 04:55 AM

Originally Posted by Annelise

YusufNoor, you said that Judaism is essentially a man made religion because of everything that has been added.

i wouldn't phrase it like that. i try to be careful to establish my position that Judaism "as we know it today" originates in Babylon. i'm not being picayune when i say that. while looking back from this 21st Century, i think we can pinpoint the time of Moses, pbuh, as the establishment of the religion of "Bani Israel." THAT is where we must seek to determine the essence of their beliefs. i would only claim what followed after to be "man-made." unless we have a Lawgiver following Moses, pbuh. we would have to examine David, pbuh, to cover that. there are some pre-Babylonian additions, and a "whole tradition" beginning in Babylon.

WRITER also asked me to explain what the promises/instructions are which keep Jews from accepting Islam, and what I believe the covenant was. So I'm wondering, even though this conversation is between Islam and Judaism... would you mind discussing the oral Law with me from within the context of Judaism?

we can discuss the origins.

If we were to assume that the written Tanach is all true, do you think that it would be better to accept the Talmud or to ignore it like the Karaites did? I'd really like to hear your thoughts on that matter, hypothetical as it is, just based on the verses in Tanach and the nature of that book in itself. In the meantime, I'll try to find a way to answer WRITER's question in a way that also explains to you why I feel the legal tradition in Judaism is legitimate and important, even though it's partially made up of human traditions (designed to preserve the spirit of the law) and partially a preservation of real experiences and commandments from God.

Shalom,

i would not accept that the Tanakh is "all true." the Deuteronomic History i see as written by Baruch ben Nariah, who is putting to pen the thoughts of Jeremiah. this would also include the Book of Deuteronomy itself. The Pentateuch is a combination of Lore from Israel (northern kingdom) and Judea (southern kingdom), with additions from Baruch/Jeremiah, a Priestly author and Ezra being the final redactor/editor (with minor editing from Baruch/Jeremiah). i see Ezra as the writer and editor of most of Ketuvim. as a Muslim, we would see the "original" Psalms of David, pbuh, as Revelation. the rest of "The Prophets" appear more warning based and not necessarily "Law." we differentiate between Prophet and Lawgiver, eg, Moses as Prophet/Lawgiver and Aaron as Prophet. [although i do not mean that Nevi'im or the Ketuvim are "inspired" or original as they are.]

as far as the Talmud goes, i can offer you what we believe as Muslims. we follow Qur'an and Sunnah, as understood by those who lived in the time of Muhhamad, pbuh. you CAN NOT add anything to that. EVERYTHING must be based upon that. you CAN make decisions based upon them, but you are not writing "new law." and if you came across something in the Sunnah that contradicted your decision, you would have to re-evaluate your analysis.

does that answer your question?

peace

- Qatada -

11-08-2012, 09:07 AM

Originally Posted by Annelise

I'm actually glad you've asked this question, and the answer is simple:

Which sane Jew would tell a gentile Prophet about the secret stories mentioned in the Tanach, when the Jews are known to be a secretive group especially when it comes to their tradition (which they limit to their own scholarly elite), and especially when they are suspicious of some gentile claiming to be Prophet of God? A Prophet who they are willing to kill and assassinate (like many previous Prophets').

I'm actually surprised that you don't know about the Jewish scholarly elders, their characteristics and the esoteric knowledge they claim to uphold.

Example: the Israelites at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) challenged him (to prove he is a Messenger of Allah) by narrating why the Israelites left the land of common day Palestine for Egypt, and how they as a nation returned back to Egypt. And Allah revealed the events of the life of Joseph and Moses in extreme detail in the Quran to answer the challenge.

Many Jews, including the scholars themselves did not have full knowledge of these events, and the Qur'an proved itself as a confirmation of Scripture which came before from the same God.

I'm juggling exams and assignments at the moment, but I want to say again that I really appreciate all the information you gave me to follow at the start of this conversation. I'll be able to really sit down and read it more deeply in a couple of weeks when the summer break starts :)

I'm really glad, I hope you pass your exams with ease :)

I think I understand what you're saying about God not breaking His original covenant with the Jews, but simply placing it in the Qur'an, in the hands of the Arabs, and opening it up to the rest of the world as well. It's hard to respond to this unless we know what the original covenant was and what methods were put in place to preserve it so that people could respond to it in any generation. You say "they were not commanded except to worship Allah , [being] sincere to Him in religion, inclining to truth, and to establish prayer and to give zakah"... but the Jews believe that the covenant law was more complex than that. There are many similarities and many differences in Jewish and Muslim legislation, and the details are important. It's also very important to Jews that if they are a nation of witnesses, they must never deny or forget that... just like it's important to Muslims to point to Islam as the repository of God's truth. So you can understand the very high caution, and the difficulty in the claim that their religion is not pure enough to test a new prophet by... and yet that they must.

I think you're not understanding my point - the Jews overall know what a true Messenger of God is supposed to be (after receiving many for over 2000years). If you read the Torah and read the Qur'an, you'll actually realise it's the same God speaking to you.

Example: read in the Torah how God speaks to Moses in their first encounter, then read the Quran on the same meeting of Moses with God (surah Taha 20:9) - then reflect; could it be the same God who speaks both? (because the Quran is believed to be the literal word of God).

Ask me why I know alot about Jewish history without me even knowing in detail the books of the Old Testament. Why? Simply because the same God who revealed the message to Moses has confirmed the message in the Final Book which unites even the Jews on what they differ.

1 Book - 1 final Messenger - 1 Law - 1 United language - 1 United Nation (without racism or borders). This is what you expect from God in sending His final Message for humanity.

Compare this to the Israelites who have been exhiled for over 2000 years, and even now Israel is a secular nation which does not implement God's law. Did you really think God would leave His chosen people like this for so long? Or does it make sense that God DID send them Messengers' but the Jews rejected them, yet there was believers who did follow God's law, who were strictly monotheistic like Abraham, and they have excelled even further than the Jews in closeness in their covenant with God.

I'm going to ask YusufNoor if we can talk about the oral Law within Judaism, even though the basis of that conversation doesn't interact with the premises of Islam. It's complex, but like Islam, Judaism works on the authority of both a text and a community/tradition.

Islam is also based on Text (Qur'an = the speech of God) and Tradition (Sunnah - the Prophetic way).

Unlike the Jewish tradition however, we have detailed and preserved texts which prove which text is valid and which isn't. This is based on a Sanad system, whereby if someone said 'the Messenger of God said...' - then they will have to prove it through a chain of narrators extending all the way back to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), and each person in the chain is scrutinized for their trustworthiness and memory. This is a massive science which fills libraries in their hundreds of thousands. No other nation has this accurate preservation of their history more than the followers of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

You can read more about it HERE.

I hope that such a conversation might give a clearer understanding of how I think the Torah was meant to be preserved and how Jews in our time are bound to test the revelations of God, as long as they are within their religion at all.

Looks interesting :)

Annelise

11-08-2012, 10:10 AM

Just a quick clarification... the stories in the Tanach aren't secret, by any means; the common Jewish people know them, as do the Christians and many other people around them. The Jewish sages and teachers were mostly secretive about mystical ideas regarding creation. What exact stories did Muhammad know that were meant to be esoteric knowledge?

- Qatada -

11-08-2012, 10:47 AM

Originally Posted by Annelise

There's more than enough content in the Qur'an regarding many aspects of the Jewish esoteric knowledge, which includes the narratives of creation, and there are plenty of ahadeeth reports of Jews asking questions to him to test if he truly is a Prophet of God, and him answering them directly on the spot accurately, without having to resort to anyone.

(some examples of questions include [paraphrased]: how will God hold the creation in His hand on Judgment Day, what will be the first meal the inhabitants of Paradise will eat, who were the boys who fled their people [the sleepers in the cave - surah al Kahf], Cyrus the Great [Dhul Qarnayn]) to name a few examples.)

Note, the main characteristic of this Prophet is that he was an illiterate, so he himself had never studied religions, texts, nor had he intermixed with Jewish Rabbis his life, and when the challenges were addressed to him - they were through a proxy (the polytheists of Makkah at the time).

Furthermore he was known as 'al Sadeeq al Ameen' (the Truthful and Trustworthy) by his people even before he got the message, and even after he had the message. The reason why his people rejected him was because they were afraid to lose their power (they would have to lower themselves to God's Law), and this is why many Jewish Rabbis rejected him also (they would have to humble themselves to an Arab (who ironically was a also a son of Abraham).

Annelise

11-08-2012, 10:54 AM

Even though Israel is a largely secular nation, with only a percentage of Jews being observant, that reflects the fact that people have a personal choice within the covenant. But it is the covenant law that preserves Israel as God's witnesses; when people stop observing Judaism, their descendants stop identifying as Jews within a few generations. As far as I know, pretty much all of the great-grandparents of all Jews today were observant Orthodox Jews. If that makes sense... the story unfolds over more than one generation at a time.

YusufNoor, it was just asked as a hypothetical because I sensed that you had an opinion about the way Orthodox Jewish tradition relates to the Tanach itself. Don't worry about it, I'll try and find better questions.

I'm trying to find a simple, clear way of expressing what the oral Law means in the context of Judaism. This (really short) video helps in showing that the laws made by rabbis in our time are designed not to add to the Torah (God forbids it) but to help their communities really adhere to the spirit of the law, and the testimony that is contained in living observances. (Search: "Misconceptions about the Oral Law" "Jews4Judaism" on YouTube... I'm sorry I still can't post links.)

The same Rabbi in the video wrote elsewhere that "The Five Books do not present themselves as an independent legal text. They are written in the format of a narrative, with various laws woven into the narrative. In other words; the Torah does not read like the constitution of the United States which simply sets down an arrangement of laws. Instead the Torah records the conversations in which God commanded Moses one law or another. Sometimes the Torah may record a lengthy series of laws, but always in the narrative setting of a God talking to Moses (as in Leviticus 1:1-7:38) or Moses talking to the people (as in the book of Deuteronomy). The usage of the narrative format confirms the significance of these conversations as the basis of the Law. Furthermore, these narratives are not written in a way that would indicate that every last word of the conversation was included in the written record." So he believes that the people of Israel have an important understanding of the Torah, and that, as God promised, His testimony would be preserved in their midst. I already quoted from Isaiah 59: "As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My spirit, which is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord."

This article is really worth reading, if you get the time. (Search on Google: "1000 verses" "validating the oral law" )It's not actually as long as it looks on the scroll bar, because there are comments underneath :) If I hear your reaction to these things, I might have a clearer understanding of how to try and explain the relationship between carefully passed down traditions, written testimony of the law, and the jurisdiction of Rabbis in individual communities as they strive to come ever closer to the letter and the spirit of the Torah.

One of the main reasons why the Torah does not allow a Jew to take Islam seriously is because of the commandment to do certain things for all their generations, forever. That was an unconditional command: they should always pass their story and their relationship with God down, through these laws and observances carefully kept. No questions asked, no suggestion that things might change in future. There were definitely blessings given for obedience and curses for disobedience, but I already quoted Deuteronomy 30:1-10... you can see the emphasis here on returning to the exact same commandments they were already given, and being restored again to the original covenant. Except that, like the prophets said, it would be a renewed covenant and a great blessing of restoration because of that. (Search on Google, with quotes: "Deuteronomy - Chapter 30 (Parshah Nitzavim) - Tanakh Online")

If you say that these chapters are changed and false, then to say other chapters from the Torah are proofs of Islam is to bring an indistinguishable double standard to the people of Israel in any generation. This text is what they have to work with, and God has either preserved it or He has left them with no way to know what He told them and how to test a prophet.

Annelise

11-08-2012, 10:58 AM

Can you show me some of the ahadeeth reports you mentioned? The thing is though, I don't know whether I can trust them to be 100% accurate proof of things that happened in history, even if you think their messengers are judged to be trustworthy. And I still think that many aspects of Judaism have always been common knowledge. People do talk about things like this all the time.

The things at stake are just so high, and the commonsense understanding of Tanach just wouldn't lead a Jew of ancient times to expect to need to accept a claim like this in the future. At all. It's very different from the constant affirmation from God, even despite all His rebukes of them, that He would restore them as a nation. This is part of their knowledge of Him, so unless they reject Judaism and the Tanach, they can't accept this message of the Qur'an... no matter how true or beautiful many parts of it are.

- Qatada -

11-08-2012, 11:21 AM

Originally Posted by Annelise

When `Abdullah bin Salam (a Jewish Rabbi) heard the arrival of the Prophet at Medina, he came to him and said, "I am going to ask you about three things which nobody knows except a prophet: What is the first portent of the Hour? What will be the first meal taken by the people of Paradise? Why does a child resemble its father, and why does it resemble its maternal uncle"

Allah's Apostle said, "Gabriel has just now told me of their answers." `Abdullah said, "He (i.e. Gabriel), from amongst all the angels, is the enemy of the Jews." Allah's Apostle said, "The first portent of the Hour will be a fire that will bring together the people from the east to the west; the first meal of the people of Paradise will be Extra-lobe (caudate lobe) of fish-liver. As for the resemblance of the child to its parents: If a man has sexual intercourse with his wife and gets discharge first, the child will resemble the father, and if the woman gets discharge first, the child will resemble her." On that `Abdullah bin Salam said, "I testify that you are the Apostle of Allah." `Abdullah bin Salam further said, "O Allah's Apostle! The Jews are liars, and if they should come to know about my conversion to Islam before you ask them (about me), they would tell a lie about me."

The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and `Abdullah went inside the house. Allah's Apostle asked (the Jews), "What kind of man is `Abdullah bin Salam amongst you?" They replied, "He is the most learned person amongst us, and the best amongst us, and the son of the best amongst us." Allah's Apostle said, "What do you think if he embraces Islam (will you do as he does)?" The Jews said, "May Allah save him from it." Then `Abdullah bin Salam came out in front of them saying, "I testify that None has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah." Thereupon they said, "He is the evilest among us, and the son of the evilest amongst us," and continued talking badly of him.

(Saheeh al Bukhari - Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 546)

If you can't accept ahadeeth to be true, then you can't really accept any aspect of history, since the Hadeeth sciences are the most preserved pieces of information in history (through continuous chain of narrators all the way back to the Messenger of Allah himself), with each person in the chain scrutinized for their truthfulness and memory, and if any believer lied about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) even with a good intention - then they are threated by God with Hellfire for lying against His Messenger.

And I still think that many aspects of Judaism have always been common knowledge. People do talk about things like this all the time.

The Quran doesn't talk about common knowledge issues, it discusses Jewish history in extreme detail before the Messenger of God even had any contact with Jews.

The things at stake are just so high, and the commonsense understanding of Tanach just wouldn't lead a Jew of ancient times to expect to need to accept a claim like this in the future. At all. It's very different from the constant affirmation from God, even despite all His rebukes of them, that He would restore them as a nation. This is part of their knowledge of Him, so unless they reject Judaism and the Tanach, they can't accept this message of the Qur'an... no matter how true or beautiful many parts of it are.

I disagree, it just doesnt make sense that God would choose a people and then never send them a Messenger for over 2000+ years when He has continuously sent them Messengers in the past one after the other, and sometimes even simultaneously. Furthermore if Muhammad (peace be upon him) is mentioned by name even in the Jewish texts today, then the Rabbis are making excuses out of; ignorance, arrogance or jealousy (they are humans afterall).

Independent

11-08-2012, 11:27 AM

The origin of 3 of the world's major religions in the same tiny area of the world is amazing enough. There is nothing else like it in world history for such a concentration of spiritual development. But most bizarre of all, for me, is the history of cities like Sura and Pumpedita. These were cities of scholars, famed for their Jewish yeshiva. But later on, when first Christian and then Muslim overlords took control, it seems that many individual scholars actually changed employers as it were, and became scholars for a new faith. No wonder why there is such overlap.

- Qatada -

11-08-2012, 11:35 AM

Originally Posted by Independent

Muslims actually affirm and unite Christians and Jews what they differ on, which makes it the perfect final religion to unite them all.

Example: Jews (after a tribe name: of Juda) believed became divided and had many sects, even differing over their obedience to the Messengers of God. They denied Jesus because they never felt he was convincing enough, with the majority refusing him because they followed the ways of their elders.

The Christians (after the title: Christ) on the other hand raised Jesus to the level of God, while others said he is a 'son' of God - imitating the Greeks in their edifying people to the level of God. When Jesus was a Messenger like the previous Messengers' and he never claimed divinity himself.

Islam (meaning: submission to God) is a continuation of the legacy of all the Prophets; serving 1 God, accepting all the Messengers as the best of mankind who we should follow in goodness, and following the final promised Messenger who has been spoken about by the Messengers of old in both the Old and New Testament. It unites mankind (not just a specific race) to a covenant with God, similar to the covenant of Abraham and the Messengers before him.

So we see just by this simple comparison that Islam is really the way to unite all of mankind, those who know past scripture and even those who don't know. It has historically proven to be a truthful faith, and continues to live on today in its original form despite all the pressure from atheist (and in many aspects: satanic), christian and jewish global forces to try to distinguish the light of Islam.

It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to manifest it over all religion, even if the disbelievers hate that (Quran chapter 9)

YusufNoor

11-08-2012, 02:49 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

Even though Israel is a largely secular nation, with only a percentage of Jews being observant, that reflects the fact that people have a personal choice within the covenant. But it is the covenant law that preserves Israel as God's witnesses; when people stop observing Judaism, their descendants stop identifying as Jews within a few generations. As far as I know, pretty much all of the great-grandparents of all Jews today were observant Orthodox Jews. If that makes sense... the story unfolds over more than one generation at a time.

YusufNoor, it was just asked as a hypothetical because I sensed that you had an opinion about the way Orthodox Jewish tradition relates to the Tanach itself. Don't worry about it, I'll try and find better questions.

whatever questions you ask are fine. i realize that you are busy and also responding to multiple members.

I'm trying to find a simple, clear way of expressing what the oral Law means in the context of Judaism. This (really short) video helps in showing that the laws made by rabbis in our time are designed not to add to the Torah (God forbids it) but to help their communities really adhere to the spirit of the law, and the testimony that is contained in living observances. (Search: "Misconceptions about the Oral Law" "Jews4Judaism" on YouTube... I'm sorry I still can't post links.)

The same Rabbi in the video wrote elsewhere that "The Five Books do not present themselves as an independent legal text. They are written in the format of a narrative, with various laws woven into the narrative.

exactly, but at different times and different places. thus a sort of forensic analysis of the text is required.

In other words; the Torah does not read like the constitution of the United States which simply sets down an arrangement of laws. Instead the Torah records the conversations in which God commanded Moses one law or another. Sometimes the Torah may record a lengthy series of laws, but always in the narrative setting of a God talking to Moses (as in Leviticus 1:1-7:38) or Moses talking to the people (as in the book of Deuteronomy). The usage of the narrative format confirms the significance of these conversations as the basis of the Law. Furthermore, these narratives are not written in a way that would indicate that every last word of the conversation was included in the written record." So he believes that the people of Israel have an important understanding of the Torah, and that, as God promised, His testimony would be preserved in their midst. I already quoted from Isaiah 59: "As for me, this is my covenant with them,” says the Lord. “My spirit, which is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,” says the Lord."

This article is really worth reading, if you get the time. (Search on Google: "1000 verses" "validating the oral law" )It's not actually as long as it looks on the scroll bar, because there are comments underneath :) If I hear your reaction to these things, I might have a clearer understanding of how to try and explain the relationship between carefully passed down traditions, written testimony of the law, and the jurisdiction of Rabbis in individual communities as they strive to come ever closer to the letter and the spirit of the Torah.

i'm not saying that i don't understand, i am saying that i disagree on what is legitimate text and what isn't. one example would be David, pbuh; as Muslims, we DO NOT and CANNOT accuse him of being an adulterer or a murderer, EVER! it is an act of unbelief for us to do so. IF somewhere either of those, the punishment laid is death by stoning, is it not? therefore, if if DID occur, whoever did it would be put to death. thus, it either didn't happen or the tribes of Israel were NOT practicing their religion.

One of the main reasons why the Torah does not allow a Jew to take Islam seriously is because of the commandment to do certain things for all their generations, forever.

perhaps your Rabbi is unaware of some things or he is adamantly anti-Islam. are you familiar with the term "God Fearers"? those that adhere to the 7 Noahide Laws? you actually are one such person. Muslims and Jews should be living in great harmony!

That was an unconditional command: they should always pass their story and their relationship with God down, through these laws and observances carefully kept. No questions asked, no suggestion that things might change in future. There were definitely blessings given for obedience and curses for disobedience, but I already quoted Deuteronomy 30:1-10... you can see the emphasis here on returning to the exact same commandments they were already given, and being restored again to the original covenant. Except that, like the prophets said, it would be a renewed covenant and a great blessing of restoration because of that. (Search on Google, with quotes: "Deuteronomy - Chapter 30 (Parshah Nitzavim) - Tanakh Online")

ESSAY Question! what is "missing" from Islam, that leads you to believe that Islam IS NOT said renewed covenant and great blessing?:statisfie

If you say that these chapters are changed and false, then to say other chapters from the Torah are proofs of Islam is to bring an indistinguishable double standard to the people of Israel in any generation. This text is what they have to work with, and God has either preserved it or He has left them with no way to know what He told them and how to test a prophet.

Shalom,

If you say that these chapters are changed and false,

we say that there are additions and changes to the texts. we DO NOT say that there is nothing of value. in fact, we call Jews and Christians "People of the Book." we do this because those "books" STILL CONTAIN some valid Revelation.

then to say other chapters from the Torah are proofs of Islam is to bring an indistinguishable double standard to the people of Israel in any generation.

not true, as i just explained. because Qur'an and authentic Hadeeth ARE Revelation, ANY places where they agree with "Torah" confirms the authenticity of those passages. quite simple.

This text is what they have to work with, and God has either preserved it or He has left them with no way to know what He told them and how to test a prophet

looking at Nehemiah 9:26 Nevertheless they were disobedient, and rebelled against Thee, and cast Thy law behind their back, and slew Thy prophets that did forewarn them to turn them back unto Thee, and they wrought great provocations.

the Jews were constantly abandoning the Law and slaying the Prophets. this is DE FACTO evidence that the Jews lost possession of whatever God wanted them to preserve. if you believe that those are the Word of God, you MUST believe it. you have NO choice in the matter. either you believe "God's Word" or you don't! what say you?

we must be mindful that maybe some well meaning souls added things to texts that they shouldn't have. for instance:

[B]“‘The Lord declares to you that the Lord himself will establish a house for you: 12 When your days are over and you rest with your ancestors, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, your own flesh and blood, and I will establish his kingdom. 13 He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. 14 I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with a rod wielded by men, with floggings inflicted by human hands. 15 But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. 16 Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever.’”

17 Nathan reported to David all the words of this entire revelation.

if this statement is 100% true, please tell where Solomon's, pbuh, throne is.

i await your reply, my Sister in Humanity,

peace

Muhaba

11-09-2012, 10:45 AM

I think that your question is that when God sent a new Prophet among the Arabs, does it mean that God broke His covenant with the Jews and made a covenant with a new set of people (non-Jews)?

The thing is that God didn't break His covenant with Jews. It was the Jews who broke the Covenant and went astray. After that the covenant no longer held as it couldn't be kept with undeserving people simply on the basis of race.

God says in the Quran:
O Children of Israel, remember My favor which I have bestowed upon you and fulfill My covenant [upon you] that I will fulfill your covenant [from Me], and be afraid of [only] Me. (2: 40)

what was the covenant and how did the Jews break it? Why do the Jews expect that the Covenant would be with the Jews only? Do the Jews feel that God broke the covenant when He chose a Prophet from non-Jews? Was that the breaking of the covenant? Did the Jews expect that Prophets would always be from among them and no-one else?

How did the Jews break the covenant?

The Jews had to obey the laws of God but they didn't. They killed many Prophets which was a great sin/crime. Prophet Jesus was prophesized to them but when he came to them with clear signs the Jews rejected him and even tried to kill him. At this point, the Jews became unbelievers because they disbelieved a Prophet of God. The covenant with the Jews no longer held for these people as they were now unbelievers and not the followers of Prophet Moses anymore.

Then when Prophet Muhammad (SAW) came to them with the final revelation (Quran) the Jews once again rejected him and the Quran and so continued to be disbelievers. Since they were disbelievers God transferred the high position from the children of Israel to the Muslims. (Note that the Jews had become disbelievers (kafirs) when they rejected Prophet Jesus who had been chosen from the children of Israel.)

Actually the term muslim is not just for the followers of Muhammad (SAW). It was also the term used for the followers of all the former prophets. In the Quran many Prophets called their followers "muslims" including Prophet Jesus. So, God's covenant was always with "Muslims." The children of Israel were the followers of Prophet Moses and so were "Muslims." They had been worthy of the Covenant and the high position God had given them while they were still Muslims. When they rejected the Prophets of God they became disbelievers (non-Muslims) and no longer were worthy of the high status or the covenant.

Whenever God sent a new Prophet, it was obligatory on all the people to believe in that Prophet. Those who didn't were no longer believers. When Prophet Jesus came, it was necessary that the Jews believe in him. When they didn't, they became non-believers (kafirs). When Prophet Muhammad (SAW) came, it was necessary that all, including Christians and Jews, to believe in him as a Prophet of God. When they didn't, they became kafirs. Those that did believe in him became Muslims.

What was the covenant of God with the jews? There are many verses referring to a covenant and the high status that had been given to the Children of Israel. I'll see if i can post some when I have the time. A large part of the second chapter of Quran (Al-Baqarah) has information about Jews as well as a portion of Chapter 7. Chapter Al-Baqarah (The Cow) is even named after the cow that the Jews had been commanded to slaughter. I recommend that you read the verses about Jews in the Quran.

One thing worth noticing is that God has used several terms to refer to the Jews and you should think of the significance of those terms. Two terms used are (Bani Israel) "children of Israel" and Yahoodi (Jews). The Jews were not initially called Jews but Muslims while they were followers of Moses. Only when they went astray (and denied Prophets such as Prophet Jesus and Prophet Muhammad -SAW) did they become Jews. So while reading the verses think of the term that God has used to refer to the people being talked about and what it might mean. Was it "Children of Israel," or was it "Jews," or some other term? Was the covenant with the children of Israel or with the followers of Moses (Muslims) or with Jews? Those are points to think about.

You can read the verses at http://quran.com/2

Muhaba

11-09-2012, 11:15 AM

You might also want to read the commentary of the verses about Jews/Children of Israel. You can do so at http://www.tafheem.net/tafheem.html

About the Covenant and the Jews high position, God had given them the high position of becoming leaders of mankind and source of guidance. But when they broke the covenant and became disbelievers, that high position was taken away from them and given to a new nation (non-Jews). This was one reason why the Jews didn't accept Prphet Muhammad (SAW) as the Messenger of God although they had been waiting for the birth of a Prophet. They had expected that the Prophet would be chosen amongst the Jews and were not happy that he was chosen from the Arabs.

Here are a few verses with commentary:

(2:87) And We gave Moses the Book and sent after him a train of Messengers in succession. Then We sent Jesus, son of Mary, with clear Signs and supported him with the Holy Spirit. *93 Then how is it that whenever a Messenger came to you with that which did not suit your lusts, you grew rebellious against him, and repudiated some and slew others.

*93. The 'spirit of holiness' signifies the knowledge derived through revelation. It also signifies the angel Gabriel who brought this revelation. It also denotes the holy spirit of Jesus, the spirit which God had endowed with angelic character.
The expression 'clear proofs' refers to those signs which are likely to convince a truth-seeking and truth-loving person that Jesus is a Prophet of God.

(2:88) They say, "Our hearts are secure [wrapped or hardened]." *94 Nay, the fact is that Allah has cursed them for their disbelief; so they are little disposed to believe.

*94. They said, in effect, that they were so staunch in their beliefs that their convictions would remain unaffected regardless of what was said. Such a claim is the hallmark of those bigots whose minds are seized by irrational prejudice. Nothing can be a matter of greater shame for human beings than the so-called firmness of conviction which they often boast of. What can be more foolish than adherence to inherited beliefs and convictions when their falseness is established by overwhelmingly strong arguments?

*95. Before the advent of the Prophet, the Jews were eagerly awaiting a Prophet whose coming had been prophesied by their own Prophets. In fact, the Jews used to pray for his advent so that the dominance of the unbelievers could come to an end and the age of their own dominance he ushered in. The people of Madina were witnesses to the fact that these same Jewish neighbours of theirs had yearned for the advent of such a Prophet. They often used to say: 'People may oppress us today as they wish, but when our awaited Prophet comes, we will settle our scores with our oppressors.'

Since the people of Madina had themselves heard such statements they were inclined to embrace the religion of the Prophet all the more readily lest their Jewist neighbours supersede them in acquiring this honour. It was therefore astonishing for them to find that when the promised Prophet did appear those same Jews who had so eagerly looked forward to welcoming him turned into his greatest enemies.

The statement 'and they recognized it' is confirmed by several contemporaneous events. The most authentic evidence in this connection is that of Safiyah, a wife of the Prophet, who was herself the daughter of one learned Jewish scholar (Huyayy b. Akhtab) and the niece of another (Abu Yasir). She says that when the Prophet migrated to Madina both her father and uncle went to meet him and conversed with him for quite a while. When they returned home, she heard the following conversation:
Uncle:Is he really the same Prophet whose advent has been prophesied in our Scriptures?
Father: By God, he is.
Uncle: Do you believe that?
Father: Yes..
Uncle. Then what do you intend to do?
Father: 1 will continue to oppose him and will not let his claim prevail as long as I live.
(Ibn Hishim, Sirah, eds., Mustafa al-Saqqa' et al., 2 vols., II edition, Cairo, 137511955, see vol. 1, pp. 518 f. See also Ibn IshAq, The Life of Muhammad, tr. and notes by A. Guillaume, London, Oxford University Press, 1955, pp. 241 f. - Ed.)

(2:142) Of course, the foolish people will say, "What has turned them abruptly away from the giblah towards which they formerly used to turn their faces in prayer?" *142 Tell them, O Messenger, `'East and West all belong to Allah; He shows the Right Way to anyone He wills." *143 Thus have We made you a Community of the "Golden Mean" so that you may be witnesses in regard to mankind and the Messenger may be a witness in regard to you. *144

*142. After his migration to Madina the Prophet continued to pray in the direction of Jerusalem for between sixteen and seventeen months. Subsequently, he received the order to pray in the direction of the Ka'bah. (See verse 144 below)

*143. This is the first answer to the objections of these ignorant people. Their narrow minds and limited vision led them to undue attachment to such formalities as the direction and locale of Prayer. They presumably conceived God to be confined to a particular direction. In reply to their absurd objection the first thing which was explained was that all directions belong to God. Fixing any particular direction for Prayer does not mean that God is confined to that direction. All those who have been favoured with God's true guidance rise above such limitations of outlook so that it is easy for them to grasp the universal verities of religion. (See also nn. 115 and 116 above.)

(2:143) We had appointed the former giblah towards which you used to turn your face merely to test who would follow the Messenger and who would turn back. *145 It was indeed a hard test but not for those who had been blessed with Guidance from Allah. Allah will not let go to waste this faith of yours; rest assured that He is full of pity and mercy for mankind.

*144. This constitutes the proclamation appointing the religious community (ummah) consisting of the followers of Muhammad to religious guidance and leadership of the world.

' And it is thus', which precedes this proclamation, contains two allusions. It alludes, in the first place, to that Divine Guidance which enabled the followers of Muhammad to know the Straight Way so that they could attain progress to the point of being proclaimed 'the community of the middle way' (or 'the mid-most community' or 'the community justly balanced' - Ed.) In the second place there is an allusion to the change in the direction of Prayer from Jerusalem to the Ka'bah. People of limited intelligence could see no significance in this change of direction although the substitution of Jerusalem by the Ka'bah amounted to the removal of the Children of Israel from their position of world leadership and their replacement by the ummah of Muhammad (peace be on him).

The Arabic expression which we have translated as 'the community of the middle way' is too rich in meaning to find an adequate equivalent in any other language. It signifies that distinguished group of people which follows the path of justice and equity, of balance and moderation, a group which occupies a central position among the nations of the world so that its friendship with all is based on righteousness and justice and none receives its support in wrong and injustice.

The purpose of creating 'the community of the middle way', according to this Qur'anic verse, is to make it stand as witness 'before all mankind and the Messenger might be a witness before you'. What this rneans is that when the whole of mankind is called to account, the Prophet, as God's representative, will stand witness to the fact that he had communicated to the Muslims and had put into practice the teachings postulating sound beliefs, righteous conduct and a balanced system of life which he had received from on high. The Muslims, acting on behalf of the Prophet after his return to the mercy of God, will he asked to bear the same witness before the rest of mankind and to say that they had spared no effort in either communioating to mankind what the Prophet had communicated to them, or in exemplifying in their own lives what the Prophet had, by his own conduct, translated into actual practice.

This position of standing witness before all mankind on behalf of God, which has been conferred on this community, amounts to its being invested with the leadership of all mankind. This is at once a great honour and a heavy responsibility. For what it actually means is that just as the Prophet served as a living example of godliness and moral rectitude, of equity and fair play before the Muslim community, so is the Muslim community required to stand vis-a-vis the whole world. What is expected of this community is that it should be able to make known, both by word and deed, the meaning of godliness and righteousness, of equity and fairplay.

Furthermore. just as the Prophet had been entrusted with the heavy responsibility of conveying to the Muslims the guidance which he had received. in a like manner a heavy responsibility has been laid on the Muslims to communicate this guidance to all mankind. If the Muslims fail to establish before God that they did their duty in conveying to mankind the guidance they had received through the Prophet they will be taken to task seriously and their honourable position as the leaders of the whole world, far from being of any help to them, will spell their disaster. They will be held responsible along with the protagonists of evil for all the errors of belief and conduct which have spread during their term of leadership. They will have to face the grim question: What were they doing when the world was convulsed by storms of transgression, injustice and error?

*145. One purpose of this change in the direction of Prayer was to find out who was blinkered by irrational prejudices and chained by chauvinistic attachment to land and blood, and who, having liberated himself from those bonds, was capable of rising to the heights and grasping the Truth.
On the one hand were the Arabs who were steeped in their national and racial arrogance. For them, taking Jerusalem as the direction of their Prayer (as originally practised by the Prophet) was too hard a blow to their national vanity to be accepted with equanimity. On the other hand, the Jews were essentially no different. They, too, were obsessed with racial pride so that it was difficult for them to accept any other than the direction of Prayer which they had inherited from the past. How could the people whose hearts were full of such idols respond to the call of the Messenger of God? Hence, God saw to it that the worshippers of such idols were distinguished from the genuine worshippers of God by first fixing Jerusalem as the direction of Prayer. This was bound to alienate all those who had worshipped the idol of Arabianism. Later, the fixing of the Ka'bah as the direction of Prayer led to the alienation of those who were engrossed in the worship of the idol of Israel. Thus there were left with the Prophet only, those who truly worshipped none but the One True God.

Insaanah

11-09-2012, 08:38 PM

Originally Posted by Annelise

This text is what they have to work with, and God has either preserved it or He has left them with no way to know what He told them and how to test a prophet.

If the Jews have criteria by which they accept Prophets, it would be interesting to know what they are (as currently written in their scriptures). What is it, that made them accept Moses but reject Jesus, blaspheme some, reject others and kill yet others (peace be upon them all)? What criteria, according to the Jews, were these prophets of God missing, such that they deserved being rejected/blasphemed/killed? I honestly have no idea what the Jewish scriptures say are the criteria or test for prophethood, or indeed if they say anything on the matter.

Originally Posted by Annelise

Thank you so much Insaanah. I know that you meant that Jesus was neither God nor simply another human being, but a great prophet who deserves our respect. My question would be... how am I supposed to know that? You're saying that it's true, but you believe that because Islam considers him a prophet. Unless I can accept the witness of Islam for other reasons, I have no way of knowing that Jesus was in fact a special person and that the most balanced approach to him is to honour him as a great and noble man.

I never met him, and different religions imagine him so differently... so how could I know that he was any different from any other person?

The prophet it should have been the hardest to reject for any reason at all, was rejected by Jews. They used to keep asking for miracles, so when God sent them a messenger born miraculously without any male intervention, one who performed miracles, such as bringing the dead to life with God's permission, they still disbelieved, even though he was known for his nobility, lineage, and upright character. Angel Gabriel (peace be upon him), who came to all the Prophets, also came to him. And Jesus (peace be upon him) did not come claiming he was inventing a new religion, but rather, confirming what came before in the Torah, and God revealed the scripture called the Injeel to him.

When God sent a Prophet, it was not at all difficult for people (lay people or the scholarly elite) to know if that person was just a fame-seeking imposter, or a true prophet, even without specifically laid out criteria. It seems that the Children of Israel were the only ones that faced such a problem. Why? Possibly because the scriptures were altered in that regard such that no prophet, even if true, would be easily accepted by the masses (that altering cannot be blamed on God not preserving a scripture). Or, even if the scriptures weren't changed in that particular regard, the reasons in the penultimate paragraph still were true.

The Qur'an, on many occasions, in many different verses, says that this Prophet (Muhammad, peace be upon him) and the book revealed to him come confirming the truth of what came before, as the Torah, in it's time, as revealed by God, was a guidance and a light for the Children of Israel. The scripture revealed to Jesus (peace be upon him) was also a guidance and a light for the Children of Israel, and came confirming what was before it. The Qur'an continues, confirms, and finalises, in it's last and final form, with any misconceptions cleared, the original message and guidance from God, preserved for all humanity.

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto.. (5:44, part)

And We sent, following in their footsteps, Jesus, the son of Mary, confirming that which came before him in the Torah; and We gave him the Gospel, in which was guidance and light and confirming that which preceded it of the Torah as guidance and instruction for the righteous. (5:46)

And they measure not the power of Allah its true measure when they say: "Allah has not revealed anything unto a human being". Say (unto the Jews who speak thus): Who revealed the Book which Moses brought, a light and guidance for mankind, which ye have put on parchments which ye show, but ye hide much (thereof), and (by which) ye were taught that which ye knew not yourselves nor (did) your fathers (know it)? Say: Allah. Then leave them to their play of cavilling. (6:91)

The Jews themselves broke their covenant with God due to their rebellion:

And We caused the Mount to tower above them at (the taking of) their covenant: and We bade them: Enter the gate, prostrate! and We bode them: Transgress not the Sabbath! and We took from them a firm covenant.

Then because of their breaking of their covenant, and their disbelieving in the revelations of Allah, and their slaying of the prophets wrongfully, and their saying: Our hearts are hardened - Nay, but Allah set a seal upon them for their disbelief, so that they believe not save a few -

And because of their disbelief and of their speaking against Mary a tremendous calumny; (4:154-156)

Yet they had once been preferred above all the people of the world:

O Children of Israel, remember My favor that I bestowed upon you and that I preferred you over the worlds. (2:47)

The Jews at the time of the Prophethood of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) knew that this was the messenger that had been promised, according to what was laid out in their scriptures, but could not bring themselves to accept him because he was not of the same race, and because, they still fancied themselves as the chosen people, and could not bear that this position of prominence amongst people would come to an end.

The sincere Jews and Christians at that time, who had been following their own scriptures, and then recognised Muhammad (peace be upon him) as the foretold messenger sent by God, followed their scriptures where they were told to follow him and the guidance sent with him, and thus became Muslims. They hadn't left their religion, but rather followed it in the utmost way, such that they were now following an original unchanged scripture, and what had been required of people by God since the beginning of time. This was not based on race, or place, but universal submission to God.

Peace.

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