pondering Judaism and Islam... :)

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Hi, I'm Annelise, writing from Sydney Australia. I wanted to join this forum because I'm curious about the Islamic understanding of Judaism, and thought it would be helpful to ask my questions firsthand from Muslims. I come from a Christian background but was challenged about a year ago by the Jewish understanding, so while I'm not Jewish I do believe what they say about who God is and how He has revealed Himself. I also have some Muslim friends from university whom I respect a lot and who I know have a close relationship with Him. I'm trying to get a wide range of opinions and responses on some issues. I'll number them for clarity, but in a way they build on each other as one question :)

1. I know Muslims believe that the Torah came from God but the manuscripts and traditions were changed, so that what the Jews had in the time of Muhammed was no longer the truth God had revealed to the Jewish people. If you do believe that the covenant God made with the Jews was given on the basis of their experience when they came out of slavery in Egypt and He gave His law to them at the mountain, what exactly do you think that covenant/promise was? What were its conditions? And what were the methods that He put in place to make sure that law and their testimony about Him could be preserved for the later generations?

2. In my experience, Christians usually ask Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah (etc.) based on the current Jewish scriptures, but for Muslims it's different. You believe that the Jewish text of the Bible is corrupted. The reality is that Jews can't accept the Qur'an on the basis of the Torah that they currently have because it contains certain promises and instructions about how to know God in their covenant law and relationship, which they would have to let go of to join Islam. Of course, if the text has been changed then it's not an issue. But this is what I wonder. If Jews can only accept Islam by deciding that there are flaws in the written Torah and the Jewish tradition, and then they might come to Islam for the reasons that anyone else in the world might do so, then why were Jews commanded by the Qur'an to accept Islam on the basis of the knowledge they already had?

3. I don't know how you'll answer the question (2) above, but I can make a guess. It might be possible to say that maybe Jews had corrupted traditions and scriptures, but nonetheless their religions still had a true understanding of some things; a separate, deeper, and innate sense of God's reality, His unity, the way He deserves to be worshipped, and what is truly good or moral. In that way the Qur'an could appeal to something that they thought Jews and Christians already knew while also contradicting the 'shallower' details of their faith claims. I think that the Jewish response to this answer would be that the commandments are fundamentally important in Judaism as a legal covenant religion. If they haven't been preserved accurately, then there is no way of making decisions about new revelations on the basis of the preceding covenant. If this were how the conversation went, what would be the next response from an Islamic perspective?

4. Imagine if a claimant to prophecy came this year and said that Islam was a true revelation from God but that its prophet had slightly, accidentally, added to the message he received before it was written down. Such a new religion might suggest that even though most of the Qur'an was accurate, it wasn't God's final revelation, and some was not from God... but Muslims must still accept the new claim on the basis of the knowledge of God that they already have. If this happened, how would Islam respond to such a claim? What would make you feel confident to ignore it, even if that religion said you needed to accept it in order to continue knowing God?

Thanks so much for reading, and I hope that my way of thinking about these questions is clear enough. I would love to hear any response, simple or in depth, to the perspective I have about what the first Muslims were asking Jews to do, to give up, and to accept. I look forward to meeting you and gaining broader clarity in these things. Blessings,
Annelise
 
Annelise said:
Hi, I'm Annelise, writing from Sydney Australia. I wanted to join this forum because I'm curious about the Islamic understanding of Judaism, and thought it would be helpful to ask my questions firsthand from Muslims. I come from a Christian background but was challenged about a year ago by the Jewish understanding, so while I'm not Jewish I do believe what they say about who God is and how He has revealed Himself. I also have some Muslim friends from university whom I respect a lot and who I know have a close relationship with Him. I'm trying to get a wide range of opinions and responses on some issues. I'll number them for clarity, but in a way they build on each other as one question :)
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Hey Annelise :) welcome. Good questions.

I'm not going to answer your questions directly, but rather i'll answer the Islamic viewpoint on Jewish, Christian and Islamic history to give you an overview of what Islam is, and how it relates directly to these religions.


Islam means submission to God. Muslim are (meaning: those who submit to God) therefore anyone who followed God's real guidance throughout history is a Muslim. Adam (peace be upon him) was the first Muslim - the father of the human race.

Adam was given guidance on how to live the best and purest life on Earth, after he had repented to God and God had accepted his repentance (a major difference of Islam vs christianity original sin). But after Adam had passed away, his son (Cain, the sinful one was not fit enough to carry on as being the Messenger of God, when he was the one who had killed his own brother Habel). So by this time, his descendants were without guidance once again. The human race therefore had expanded in number, but the guidance of God wasn't there as it was at the time of Adam.


So God sent human Messengers' again, ranging from Noah, to Abraham, to Moses, to Jesus, with a total of 124,000 Prophets' of God coming to every land on Earth - telling the humans to serve God in the best possible way and to avoid false gods and satans evil plans.

But the sad reality was - satan always fooled the masses by encouraging the people to worship the righteous people who had died, this is why you see so much saints graves turning into places where people go to pray, prostrate and beg to the dead saint to help them. All this is a trick of satan which makes that grave turn into an object of worship along with God. Infact, Jesus is even worshipped now by Christians and is either classed as 'God' or part of God (son). When there is none but 1 God, our Creator and Provider.


All Messengers had come with a clear message: worship and serve God alone, with all your heart and mind, and to be good to those close to you and far from you. It was this simple, but the devils from men and jinn (spirits) misled people so they loved and worshipped human saints instead of God, or idols, or even their own desires (nowadays this is the most common) instead of God and serving His guidance above all else.

The Jews themselves did the same sin that satan did, satan said he will never follow the guidance of God (in prostrating to Adam), because he is 'better than him' (the superior race). Why should God keep an everlasting covenant with the Jews when they are the killers of God's Prophets' (Zakariah, John the Baptist, and the alleged murder of Jesus)? Surely God can replace them and their arrogance with people who will follow the way of Abraham the most (Muslims follow Abraham, Jesus and Moses more than any other people on Earth).


So God made a new covenant with the whole world - whoever follows the final Messenger of God Muhammad, the servant and Messenger of God (who is mentioned by name in the Jewish scriptures, then he will be successful:

The Qur'an mentions in Surah Al-Araf chapter 7 verse 157:
"Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the law and the Gospels"
​


the Song of Solomon chapter 5 verse 16:
"Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Muhammadim Zehdoodeh WA Zehraee Bayna Jerusalem."
​
Translation:"His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is Mohammad. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem."
​

​

The Messenger of God, Muhammad (peace be upon him) preaches the same message of Moses, and Jesus - of serving 1 God, our Creator and Provider. He removes all the doubts and divisions the Jews and Christians differed over and could never unite again on. He came with a complete and perfect guidance which is undisputable and unites mankind upon goodness in serving 1 God instead of just limiting this offer to one [Jewish] race only.

All these are clear signs that he is a final Messenger of God. He is the most influential man on Earth, and the Qur'an is the most authentically preserved Book in the world - both which are FACTS without doubt. Which again supports that if God sent a Message, it was to this man, and that message was God's Book.



Theres alot more that i can say, but i recommend you check this site out for abit more info:

http://IslamReligion.com



Peace :)
 
Shalom/Salaam :) and I liked your reply... it was clear and I appreciate how you welcomed, listened, and responded to what I wrote. So thank you. Even though I would like to get back to the questions I wrote, I think you're right that it's important first to clarify the foundations of where each faith is coming from. I'll try and reply to some of what you wrote from my own perspective, and then I'll describe why this conversation feels so important to me.

Jews and Muslims are quite alike in the belief that a person can repent and be forgiven, as you mentioned happening with Adam. This is expressed beautifully in passages such as Isaiah 55 and Ezekiel 33:10-16, which are both specifically about how to be forgiven. As you say it does contradict the Christian concept of original sin, also the concept of the death of the Messiah being needed for forgiveness. Jews believe that even before the time of Abraham, there were righteous people (most notably Noah, like you wrote) who understood that God is one, alone, and stood for this among their generations. In these things we are very similar in our message.

According to the written Torah (as preserved) in Deuteronomy 30 and the surrounding chapters, God told the Israelites that they would be punished when they didn't keep His laws and the spirit of those laws, but He said "When all these blessings and curses I have set before you come on you and you take them to heart wherever the Lord your God disperses you among the nations, and when you and your children return to the Lord your God and obey him with all your heart and with all your soul according to everything I command you today, then the Lord your God will restore your fortunes and have compassion on you and gather you again from all the nations where he scattered you." (Deuteronomy 30:1-4) Both Islam and Christianity mention a 'new covenant' as a new community altogether who would bear witness to who God is in the world. In the Jewish scriptures, the idea of a new covenant is a promise that even despite the sins of the Jewish people, God would return them to Himself and renew His covenant with them when they would repent, by His grace and with His help. Regarding the murder of the prophets, it's important to remember that those prophets wrote a lot about a small righteous community within the wider population of the Jews, whom God would preserve: "'The Redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins,' declares the Lord. 'As for me, this is my covenant with them,' says the Lord. 'My Spirit, who is on you, will not depart from you, and my words that I have put in your mouth will always be on your lips, on the lips of your children and on the lips of their descendants—from this time on and forever,' says the Lord." (Isaiah 59:20-21) This is why Jews believe it is so important to carefully guard the covenant they have received from the generations before them, because in doing so they desire to guard the message about God in the earth.

I just want to clarify a couple of other things. I've heard people say the big difference between Islam and Judaism is that Jews claim an exclusive covenant, where only one ethnicity can be righteous and surrender to God, while Islam is a universal invitation. My life is a good example of the way in which Jews believe that God gave them a particular covenant and responsibility, kind of as if they are a nation of priests, but that He only did this so that everyone in the world could know Him. In Biblical prophecies where God spoke of His presence and glory blessing the Jewish people, He often spoke of the way in which all nations would see this light and come to worship Him together with Israel. The story of Jonah is another good example of this, where the Assyrian city of Nineveh repented of the violence they were committing and God blessed and forgave them. Personally, I am not Jewish and I haven't converted to Judaism, so I don't keep the ritual laws of the Torah; they aren't mine to keep. But I am in a relationship with God, submitted to Him, and I follow the moral laws taught in Judaism about how all humanity should serve God. I feel blessed to have heard this message about worshipping God alone and not finding any good reason to believe that a human was actually God incarnate rather than (as you would expect) part of creation.

The other thing I want to clarify is that when talking about Israel, I'm not talking about 'the state of Israel'. I disagree with some aspects of that state and what it does, and I would defend other things, but it isn't what I'm referring to at all. When I talk about the testimony of Israel, I mean the message that is held by righteous Jews in every generation about God and how He calls all of humanity to know Him. And this is why the question is so important to me, and I can't just listen to Islam without taking very seriously the things that the Qur'an asks Jews to do. Jews believe (as Muslims do) that there are laws from God that must be kept, and that if they give them up for a different law code then they're breaking their covenant with God. You could imagine how Muslims might feel if the 'prophet' in my first post's fourth question told them to give up some of the laws that they follow and adhere to a slightly different law code. It would have to be questioned at least. And not only for personal reasons; Jews believe that adhering to the Torah, keeping to Sabbath, and such things, are a big part of what preserves them as a nation to show idolatrous or atheist/agnostic nations who God truly is. I heard a Rabbi say recently that to be part of a covenantal people means to be God's witnesses (Isaiah 43:10). The Jewish people are here to testify to the entire world that God is the only sovereign being, there are no others; God has absolute sovereignty over the entire creation. God says many times in the Hebrew scriptures that they should be exceedingly careful to never, ever forget the experience that their ancestors had at Mount Sinai; to remember it over and over, and teach to their children, who would teach it to their children (Deuteronomy 4:9) This is how the Jewish people would receive their concept of who and what God is. This passing down of the experience at Sinai, to testify that God alone deserves our worship because He made us, He made our hearts, is what they are here for. They have been willing to die for this throughout the centuries.

For this reason, they can't change the commandments and they can't deny that the Jewish covenant preserves an important voice of God in the world. A good example of this is in the Biblical book of Daniel, where Daniel and his friends were taken into exile but they refused to eat the meat of their captors and yet God kept them strong, giving them both wisdom and favour. When the king created a statue to represent that his kingdom would last forever, Daniel's friends refused to bow to it even at the threat of death: they would not bow to an idol, but they also would not bow to the idea of history that it represented. Jews believe that Islam is incredibly accurate in many things, particularly the belief that nothing in creation deserves our worship, and that this truth is what makes Islam resonate so much with the God-loving people who follow it. Even so, they can't let go of the covenant law and beliefs about their role in the world unless the questions in my first post are addressed in a way that compels them to follow their God in that way.

As you can see, we both have really similar values, but different visions of how God has revealed Himself and through which faith system He desires people to listen and submit to Him. Each of our scriptures will disagree with some of the ideas that the other has mentioned. This is why I wrote the questions that I did earlier, because to the best of my ability they come close to the heart of the issue from a Jewish perspective of what Muslims ask from them. Anyway, I'm really enjoying talking with you... thanks again!
 
One more thing. When you mentioned the name of Muhammed in that verse from Shir Hashirim (The Song of Songs), that word is only there (it's in plural form) because in Hebrew it means similarly to in Arabic. The translation is "His mouth is sweetness itself; he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, this is my friend, daughters of Jerusalem." It's a beautiful love poem.

Christians say something similar about the name of Jesus appearing in the Hebrew Bible, because his name Yeshua meant 'salvation'. So wherever that word appears in the scriptures, including when it is in reference to God, some Christians will find parallels to Jesus as they understand him to have been. I believe that this would only be relevant if their faith system as a whole were proven to be true, but as it is it can't stand as proof.
 
Greetings and :welcome: to the forums.

I will leave the questions for brother Qatada, but I wish you an enjoyable stay here, and hope that you find it beneficial.
 
Thanks so much, it's really lovely to meet you (so to speak), and it's kind that you'd write a welcome. I looked at a few Muslim forums online but I decided to post on this one, because it seems like a friendly and positive community. So impressive and really beautiful, actually.

Hope you have a great week, and may God bless you closely in His kindness.
 
1. I know Muslims believe that the Torah came from God but the manuscripts and traditions were changed, so that what the Jews had in the time of Muhammed was no longer the truth God had revealed to the Jewish people. If you do believe that the covenant God made with the Jews was given on the basis of their experience when they came out of slavery in Egypt and He gave His law to them at the mountain, what exactly do you think that covenant/promise was? What were its conditions? And what were the methods that He put in place to make sure that law and their testimony about Him could be preserved for the later generations?
Click to expand...

If you want to read alot about Jewish history, then you should know that the Qur'an is extremely detailed about this, which is part of the Qurans miraculous nature (a text revealed in the 7th century when Jews had kept their history to themselves, and wikipedia wasn't available :) ).

Quran chapter 2 (the Calf) and Chapter 7, and chapter 17 (chapter: Children of Israel) discuss the history of the Jews alot, and you can check it out on http://Quran.com



And [recall] when We took your covenant, [O Children of Israel, to abide by the Torah] and We raised over you the mount, [saying], "Take what We have given you with strength/determination and remember what is in it that perhaps you may become righteous." (Quran 2:63)


What were the Commandments given to the Jews?


Say, "Come, I will recite what your Lord has prohibited to you. [He commands] that you not associate anything with Him, and to parents, good treatment, and do not kill your children out of poverty; We will provide for you and them.

And do not approach immoralities/shamefulness - what is apparent of them and what is concealed. And do not kill the soul which Allah has forbidden [to be killed] except by [legal] right. This has He instructed you that you may use reason." (Quran 6:151)





2. In my experience, Christians usually ask Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah (etc.) based on the current Jewish scriptures, but for Muslims it's different. You believe that the Jewish text of the Bible is corrupted. The reality is that Jews can't accept the Qur'an on the basis of the Torah that they currently have because it contains certain promises and instructions about how to know God in their covenant law and relationship, which they would have to let go of to join Islam. Of course, if the text has been changed then it's not an issue. But this is what I wonder. If Jews can only accept Islam by deciding that there are flaws in the written Torah and the Jewish tradition, and then they might come to Islam for the reasons that anyone else in the world might do so, then why were Jews commanded by the Qur'an to accept Islam on the basis of the knowledge they already had?
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God/Allah tells us:


And Allah had already taken a covenant from the Children of Israel, and We delegated from among them twelve leaders. And Allah said, "I am with you. If you establish prayer and give zakah (purification charity) and believe in My messengers and support them and loan Allah a goodly loan, I will surely remove from you your misdeeds and admit you to gardens beneath which rivers flow. But whoever of you disbelieves after that has certainly strayed from the soundness of the way."

So for their breaking of the covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard. They distort words from their [proper] usages and have forgotten a portion of that of which they were reminded. And you will still observe deceit among them, except a few of them. But pardon them and overlook [their misdeeds]. Indeed, Allah loves the doers of good. (Quran 5: 12-13)



3. I don't know how you'll answer the question (2) above, but I can make a guess. It might be possible to say that maybe Jews had corrupted traditions and scriptures, but nonetheless their religions still had a true understanding of some things; a separate, deeper, and innate sense of God's reality, His unity, the way He deserves to be worshipped, and what is truly good or moral. In that way the Qur'an could appeal to something that they thought Jews and Christians already knew while also contradicting the 'shallower' details of their faith claims. I think that the Jewish response to this answer would be that the commandments are fundamentally important in Judaism as a legal covenant religion. If they haven't been preserved accurately, then there is no way of making decisions about new revelations on the basis of the preceding covenant. If this were how the conversation went, what would be the next response from an Islamic perspective?
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God/Allah has told us the history of the Jews the most thoroughly in the Qur'an, because His Messenger Muhammad (peace be upon him) has warned us that we as a nation will follow their footsteps in good and bad. Moses is the most spoken about Messenger of God in the Quran.

You know how much pressure the Jews have been to defend their race from extinction, in many cases they have had to change their scripture (or in the least: its context) to defend themselves, especially when they were enslaved when their kings were tyrants. It is clear they have altered their scripture or its context - which has made their later generations forget huge portions of the religion which were important. Since Guidance of God is to be taken in its entirety.

For Israelites then to take pride in knowing God (when its clear they have rebelled against God many times), isnt a justification for them being still part of the covenant of God if they themselves have forgotten portions of it.


The only logical answer is that God chose another people who He loves, and they love Him. Who will fulfill the covenant better than the Jews, and it is known that Muslims fulfill this covenant in many cases even more than the Jews.


Infact, just a look at the life of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) is a proof of him being a Messenger of God, who was in many ways more successful and superior to Moses in all aspects.

Read about his life and achievements briefly here:
http://www.islamreligion.com/category/79/


4. Imagine if a claimant to prophecy came this year and said that Islam was a true revelation from God but that its prophet had slightly, accidentally, added to the message he received before it was written down. Such a new religion might suggest that even though most of the Qur'an was accurate, it wasn't God's final revelation, and some was not from God... but Muslims must still accept the new claim on the basis of the knowledge of God that they already have. If this happened, how would Islam respond to such a claim? What would make you feel confident to ignore it, even if that religion said you needed to accept it in order to continue knowing God?
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Again, we dont blindly say Muhammad is the Messenger of God. No, we have strong convincing proofs that he is sent from God, his life biography is a proof, the book (Quran) he came with is a proof, and his achievements are a proof. If God chose a Messenger who would lead mankind, he would have to be the most influential man with the most influential book right? No other man fits this position more than Muhammad (peace be upon him.)


I'll summarise this by quoting two western thinkers, and what they said about Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him):


Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92:

“He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope’s pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports.”



Lamartine, Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77:

“Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?”


What they said about Muhammad:
http://www.islamreligion.com/articles/196/viewall/
 
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Also, I should add that I didn't write these questions to try and persuade anyone here to agree with me. I really want to understand what the Jewish and Muslim discussion sounds like at its clearest. I love that Muslims are seeking and serving God in a way that is often really beautiful, and which I believe He accepts. But these issues are also really important in my eyes; they're also so complex in the world today, in a way that I'm not yet sensitive enough to. And I've heard a number of non-religious Jewish friends telling me that they can't see the difference between the Jewish and the Muslim claims regarding God, so it's a personal matter that I want to look at more deeply. Thanks for your willingness to share how you see God and the world.
 
Oh- we both posted at almost the same time, so the post above this one isn't a response to what you last wrote!

I'm just trying to finish an assignment for uni, but I'll reply to you soon, when I can do so more clearly and in less words than before :) I really look forward to talking with you more.
 
I look forward to it :)

If you need any help with your assignments, ask us and we can try to give you some help in research etc.


Peace!
 
Thanks. My essay is actually about medieval Karaite Judaism. I decided to take some Hebrew and Jewish Studies units this semester so I could learn more about Judaism while completing my degree (in medieval studies)... Really interesting!
 
Interesting, if you really want to know about jewish history though - you'll have to study and learn Hebrew. There is too much problems in learning a history and culture of a people until u know their language.

Trust me i know because i've only started to appreciate Islam more now that I can grasp Arabic (infact the arabic language is one of the miracles of the Quran) - Arabic is the most powerful language in the world and unmatched in style and effect, and Hebrew is extremely similar to it (they're both sister languages).


I've actually been able to make a book to prove this - called: Quran the LinguisticMiracle (which you can download from here for free: )

http://www.islamicboard.com/quran/134311148-download-book-qur-linguistic-miracle.html#post1524830


You can read it whenever u get the time.
 
I definitely agree with you... I've been learning Hebrew for most of this year. I hear it a lot at the synagogue as well, where I've been going to pray with and get to know some of the Jewish community here in Sydney.

Maybe in a year or so I also hope to learn Arabic, because I appreciate a lot of the literature that has been written in it. Your language and culture lend themselves to very aesthetically rich expression of beauty and the human experience. It's nice that the two languages are so similar for that reason. I learnt some Turkish a while ago as well, so maybe there'll be some cross over from there as well.

Really have to go, but thanks again,
Annelise
 
I'll definitely watch it! I think when I reply to you, I'll try and focus most on your answer to the second question... about how the Jews of Muhammed's time, and afterward, were supposed to know from their Judaism that Islam was what God desired from them, and that they should dare to let go of what they thought they were protecting out of love for Him. It still seems to me that a Jew would have to reject the accuracy of Judaism first before considering Islam, so apart from their increased caution, I don't see the difference between them and anyone else when it comes to considering this religion.

Anyway, I will get to the other things later, especially after I've had a chance to open all the links and read again the passages you mentioned. Peace,
Annelise
 
Shalom alaichum Annelise,

i would really enjoy having this discussion with you. i don't have any "pat" answers. i have a unique perspective on this topic. might i ask, in order to explain things in a way you could relate to, what "form" of Judaism you identify with?

also, how many times a day do you pray? what do you "read" in those prayers? is it your belief that you follow the decalogue, as you understand it was revealed?

and a trick question ;D, can i assume that you know Christian scripture as well as Jewish Scripture? and in that assumption, would you have reviewed any Qur'an? having asked that, and assuming that you have some knowledge of them, tell me what your opinion of this passage is [oh, and by the way, did you know that Prophet Moses,pbuh, is mentioned over 80 times in the Qur'an?]:


6 So the people said, “Lord, may your glorious name be praised. May it be lifted high above every other name that is blessed and praised. 6 You are the one and only Lord. You made the heavens. You made even the highest heavens. You created all of the stars in the sky. You created the earth and everything that is on it. And you made the oceans and everything that is in them. You give life to everything. Every living being in heaven worships you.

7 “You are the Lord God. You chose Abram. You brought him out of Ur in Babylonia. You named him Abraham. 8 You knew that his heart was faithful to you. And you made a covenant with him. You promised to give to his children after him a land of their own. It was the land of the Canaanites, Hittites and Amorites. The Perizzites, Jebusites and Girgashites also lived there. You have kept your promise. That’s because you always do what is right and fair.

9 “You saw how our people suffered long ago in Egypt. You heard them cry out to you at the Red Sea. 10 You did miraculous signs and wonders against Pharaoh. You sent plagues on all of his officials. In fact, you sent them on all of the people of Egypt. You knew how they treated our people. They looked down on them. But you made a name for yourself. That name remains to this very day.

11 “You parted the Red Sea for the people of Israel. They passed through it on dry ground. But you threw into the sea those who chased them. They sank down like a stone into the mighty waters. 12 By day you led them with a pillar of cloud. At night you led them with a pillar of fire. It gave them light to show them the way you wanted them to go.

13 “You came down on Mount Sinai. From heaven you spoke to our people. You gave them rules and laws. Those laws are right and fair. You gave them orders and commands that are good. 14 You taught them about your holy Sabbath day. You gave them commands, orders and laws. You did it through your servant Moses.

15 “When the people were hungry, you gave them bread from heaven. When they were thirsty, you brought them water out of a rock.

“You told them to go into the land of Canaan. You told them to take it as their own. It was the land you had promised to give them. You had even raised your hand and taken an oath to do it.

16 “But our people before us became proud and stubborn. They didn’t obey your commands. 17 They refused to listen to you. They forgot the miracles you had done among them. So they became stubborn. When they refused to obey you, they appointed a leader for themselves. They wanted to go back to being slaves in Egypt. But you are a God who forgives. You are gracious. You are tender and kind. You are slow to get angry. You are full of love. So you didn’t desert them.

18 “They made for themselves a metal statue of a god that looked like a calf. They said, ‘Here is your god. He brought you up out of Egypt.’ And they did evil things that dishonored you. But you still didn’t desert them.

19 “Because you loved them so much, you didn’t leave them in the desert. During the day the pillar of cloud didn’t stop guiding them on their path. At night the pillar of fire didn’t stop shining on the way you wanted them to go. 20 You gave them your good Spirit to teach them. You didn’t hold back your manna from their mouths. And you gave them water when they were thirsty. 21 For 40 years you took good care of them in the desert. They had everything they needed. Their clothes didn’t wear out. And their feet didn’t swell up.

22 “You gave them kingdoms and nations. You even gave them lands far away. They took over the country of Sihon. He was king of Heshbon. They also took over the country of Og. He was king of Bashan. 23 You gave them as many children as there are stars in the sky. You told their parents to enter the land. You told them to take it over. And you brought their children into it. 24 Their children went into the land. They took it as their own. You brought the people of Canaan under Israel’s control. The Canaanites lived in the land. But you handed them over to Israel. You also handed their kings and the other nations in the land over to Israel. You allowed Israel to deal with them just as they wanted to.

25 “Your people captured cities that had high walls around them. They also took over the rich land in Canaan. They took houses that were filled with all kinds of good things. They took over wells that had already been dug. They took many vineyards, olive groves and fruit trees. They ate until they were very full and satisfied. They were filled with joy because you were so good to them.

26 “But they didn’t obey you. Instead, they turned against you. They turned their backs on your law. They killed your prophets. The prophets had warned them to turn back to you. But they did very evil things that dishonored you.

27 “So you handed them over to their enemies, who beat them down. Then they cried out to you. From heaven you heard them. You loved them very much. So you sent leaders to help them. The leaders saved them from the powerful hand of their enemies.

28 “But as soon as the people were enjoying peace and rest again, they did what was evil in your sight. Then you handed them over to their enemies. So their enemies ruled over them. When they cried out to you again, you heard them from heaven. You loved them very much. So you saved them time after time.

29 “You warned them to obey your law again. But they became proud. They didn’t obey your commands. They sinned against your rules. Anyone who obeys them will live by them. But the people didn’t care about that. They turned their backs on you. They became very stubborn. They refused to listen to you.

30 “For many years you put up with them. By your Spirit you warned them through your prophets. In spite of that, they didn’t pay any attention. So you handed them over to the nations that were around them. 31 But you loved them very much. So you didn’t put an end to them. You didn’t desert them. That’s because you are a gracious God. You are tender and kind.


would you say that is an accurate history?

Peace,
Sam
 
Annelise said:
I'll definitely watch it! I think when I reply to you, I'll try and focus most on your answer to the second question... about how the Jews of Muhammed's time, and afterward, were supposed to know from their Judaism that Islam was what God desired from them, and that they should dare to let go of what they thought they were protecting out of love for Him. It still seems to me that a Jew would have to reject the accuracy of Judaism first before considering Islam, so apart from their increased caution, I don't see the difference between them and anyone else when it comes to considering this religion.
Click to expand...

I don't like rushing into things but because i might be busy later on today, i thought i'd answer abit about this from my perspective.


The Jews at the time of Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) were awaiting the final Messenger of God, and this is the reason why they had moved to the city of Medina in the first place prior to his birth (when they could have easily moved to more richer lands if they weren't awaiting him).

This then explains the context of Jews being located in Medina (called: Tayba = the Pure). They were awaiting a Prophet who would be 'unto Moses'. (Deuteronomy 18:15). We know that no man, not even Joshua was similar or greater than Moses in achievements compared to Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him), or any other man in world history.


Going back to the context of Madinah:

The Jews awaited a Prophet, they saw him and he matched all the descriptions mentioned in their books. EXCEPT one which they assumed or misunderstood - he wasn't Jewish. Due to this, they rejected him and promised to be his enemies till death. Many of them fulfilled this due to pride or tribalism.

Some of the Jewish scholars who became Muslims in early Islamic history quoted the scripture from their book which describes Muhammad (peace be upon him):


Isaiah 42:
042:001 Behold my servant, whom I uphold; mine elect, in whom my soul delighteth; I have put my spirit upon him: he shall bring forth judgment to the Gentiles 042:002 He shall not cry, nor lift up, nor cause his voice to be heard in the street. 042:003 A bruised reed shall he not break, and the smoking flax shall he not quench: he shall bring forth judgment unto truth. 042:004 He shall not fail nor be discouraged, till he have set judgment in the earth: and the isles shall wait for his law.

042:006 I the LORD have called thee in righteousness, and will hold thine hand, and will keep thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, for a light of the Gentiles;

042:008 I am the LORD: that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.

​

"Ata' Ibn Yasar narrated: I met 'Abdullah bin 'Umar bin 'Amr bin Al-'As and asked him: Tell me about the description of the Messenger of Allah which is mentioned in Torah." He replied, Yes. By Allah, he is mentioned Torah with his qualities found in the Quran as follows, O Prophet! We have sent you as a witness, and a giver of glad tidings, And a warner, and guardian of the illiterates. You are My slave and My Messenger. I have named you al-Mutawakkil (meaning Allahs dependent and relier). You are neither discourteous, harsh, nor a noise-maker in the markets; You do not do evil to those Who do evil to you, but you deal With them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them say: There is no god but Allah. With which will be opened blind eyes, and deaf ears and enveloped hearts (2125 Bukhari)



Even then, there are many further statements describing Muhammad (peace be upon him) in the Torah of the Jews which is further recited today:

"I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."

[Deuteronomy 18:18]


Could brethren refer to Ishmaelites?

Brown's Hebrew lexicon states that the hebrew word can refer to an indefinite relative or kin in a wider way, like cousins.

In Deuteronomy 2:4, 8, 'brethren' was used in conjunction with the Edomites, who were basically their cousins.


The Ishmaelites (Arabs) are cousin brethren of the Jews. What is the sign of this Messenger mentioned in Deuteronomy? He recites what God commands him, and this is what Qur'an means - 'the Speech of God (which is put into mans mouth) which is recited.'


He is most like Moses than any other man, even more than Jesus (Christians sometimes claim this verse in Deuteronomy refers to him) but a simple comparison shows this isn't true:


Here's a huge list of the similarities between Moses and Muhammad (peace be upon them);

i) Both had a father and a mother, while Jesus (pbuh) was born miraculously without any male intervention.

[Mathew 1:18 and Luke 1:35 and also Al-Qur'an 3:42-47]


ii) Both were married and had children. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not marry nor had children.

iii) Both died natural deaths. Jesus (pbuh) has been raised up alive.
(4:157-158)

iv) Both besides being Prophets were also kings i.e. they could inflict capital punishment. Jesus (pbuh) said, "My kingdom is not of this world." (John 18:36).

v) Both were accepted as Prophets by their people in their lifetime but Jesus (pbuh) was rejected by his
people. John chapter 1 verse 11 states, "He came unto his own, but his own received him not."

iv) Both brought new laws and new regulations for their people. Jesus (pbuh) according to the Bible did not bring any new laws. (Mathew 5:17-18).



​
There is plenty of evidence from the Torah itself to prove that Muhammad (peace be upon him) really is the final Messenger, but due to sheer racism, alot of the Jewish scholars have hidden the truth from their people. This is why God is extremely angry with them, and the only way to relieve yourself off God's anger is to submit to His final Guidance which He has revealed to His final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him).


Furthermore, i've made a site called IslamProphecies which proves that Muhammad (peace be upon him) was really a Messenger of God (and how he couldnt have got this knowledge off devils or spirits who themselves do not know the unseen future of modern day events [considering he was a man who lived in the desert over 1,400years ago.]);

IslamProphecies



So ask yourself - if any man was to be a Messenger of God, wouldn't he have the most influential and powerful book? The most influential character? And truthful Prophecies? Wouldn't he have true miracles and honest achievements which are greater than the miracles of Moses? No man matches this more than Muhammad (peace be upon him).



One more thing. When you mentioned the name of Muhammed in that verse from Shir Hashirim (The Song of Songs), that word is only there (it's in plural form) because in Hebrew it means similarly to in Arabic.
Click to expand...


In the Hebrew language im is added for respect (similarly in Arabic its like that). Similarly im is added after the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to make it Muhammadim. In English translation they have even translated the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) as "altogether lovely", but in the Old Testament in Hebrew, the name of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) is yet present.

​








 
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YusufNoor, I really look forward to talking with you as well. Just quickly, I'm not Jewish so I'm not under the covenant law which includes the ten commandments. I do follow a lot of them for moral reasons. I deeply avoid idolatry, blasphemy, murder, adultery, stealing, false witness, and jealousy, and I try hard to honour my parents. But I don't keep the Sabbath in the way that Jews are meant to keep it, because that is part of their covenant with God. I believe it is almost as important that I don't take part in their rituals as it is that they do keep them, even as I do take part in their faith. If I decided to convert to the Jewish community then I would keep them carefully, according to the tradition.

Also, I pray each day in my own words whenever my heart looks to God, and sometimes I pray in their liturgy or psalms as well, especially at the synagogue.

I agree with Orthodox Judaism. That in itself is a very broad group with many cultures and traditions within it! I know that some aspects of these cultures are revealed, some are human and traditional, but if we focus on the central things more than the peripheral ones the Orthodox Jewish claim is important. Jews like the Conservative, Karaite, Reform, and other groups do have some important thoughts, but I can't see any other way in which a person can submit to God through the Torah, the Tanach, and the ongoing testimony of this group of people.

When I can have the time to do it justice, I'll reply to the passage that you posted... it's such a good one to talk around. The same to Qatada :)
 
Could you expand on the question a bit more? I can't grasp what you're asking.
 

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