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fschmidt
03-01-2018, 07:48 AM
http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/talmud.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSy6ENVAJlY

https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Histor...dp/B00GGOEL4A/

Mainstream Judaism is Talmudic Judaism today. Talmudic Judaism is fundamentally parasitic and should not be tolerated in a moral community. Only Karaite Judaism is okay.

What is the final solution? Require everyone in your community to periodically eat meat and milk together. For example, cheeseburgers or shawarma with yogurt sauce. This will eliminate Talmudic Judaism which prohibits this, but won't affect Karaite Judaism or other followers of the Old Testament.


Please note that I am ethnically jewish and attended Orthodox synagogue, so I can personally confirm that the above links are accurate. I am posting this because, based on my experience at my local mosque, I think Muslims are naive when it comes to dealing with Judaism.
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Karl
03-02-2018, 02:37 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
http://www.missionislam.com/nwo/talmud.htm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YSy6ENVAJlY

https://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Histor...dp/B00GGOEL4A/

Mainstream Judaism is Talmudic Judaism today. Talmudic Judaism is fundamentally parasitic and should not be tolerated in a moral community. Only Karaite Judaism is okay.

What is the final solution? Require everyone in your community to periodically eat meat and milk together. For example, cheeseburgers or shawarma with yogurt sauce. This will eliminate Talmudic Judaism which prohibits this, but won't affect Karaite Judaism or other followers of the Old Testament.


Please note that I am ethnically jewish and attended Orthodox synagogue, so I can personally confirm that the above links are accurate. I am posting this because, based on my experience at my local mosque, I think Muslims are naive when it comes to dealing with Judaism.
I thought mainstream Judaism was very lefty liberal and feminist and not of the Talmud at all. Even in Israel it is pro feminist and homosexuals. Modern Jews attack Islam because Muhammad (PBUH) married a girl of six. But that is not even an issue in the Talmud or Torah as many Jews married girls. So why do modern Jews attack Islam with no foundation at all? Why do they live by the modern kaffir pop culture which they create and promote degeneracy? Are you proud of this or ashamed?
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fschmidt
03-02-2018, 05:57 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
I thought mainstream Judaism was very lefty liberal and feminist and not of the Talmud at all. Even in Israel it is pro feminist and homosexuals. Modern Jews attack Islam because Muhammad (PBUH) married a girl of six. But that is not even an issue in the Talmud or Torah as many Jews married girls. So why do modern Jews attack Islam with no foundation at all? Why do they live by the modern kaffir pop culture which they create and promote degeneracy? Are you proud of this or ashamed?
First of all, I don't feel pride or shame for my race because I don't care about race. Judaism is not something that I identify with.

The relationship between Talmudic Judaism and Liberal Judaism is complicated. Liberal jews know nothing of the Talmud but still inherit some of its culture. This includes the ability to debate and an acceptance of hypocrisy. But as liberals, they are against all traditional cultures including both Islam and Orthodox Judaism. Liberalism normally isn't a problem because God takes care of it naturally by reducing their birth rate. I support all liberals becoming trans-gendered freaks because that means that they won't reproduce. The problem is that Judaism prevents this natural solution to liberalism as I explained here:

http://www.mikraite.org/The-Judaist-Problem-tp1570.html
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Misbah-Abd
03-02-2018, 10:59 AM
The Talmud is a collection of writings from Rabbis through the centuries. It is not a revealed scripture like the Torah or the Psalms of David. It is full of hate towards the Gentiles and it says disparaging things about Jesus and his mother. The Talmud was the foundation of the rise of Zionism, which is a racist political ideology. It is the Askenazi pseudo jews that descended from Khazaria in Southern Russia that have created Zionism. It is those who duped the world into thinking they are the Semitic Jews descended from Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. It is those who forcefully took over Palestine. It is those who have taken over the banking industry, Hollywood, mass media and are influential behind the scenes in governments around the world. It is those who are the allies of Shaytan. It is those whom Jesus a.s. will come back for to destroy, them and their false Messiah.

"I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan." Revelation 2:9

And Allah Knows Best
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Junon
03-02-2018, 09:35 PM
Salaam

In the past I wouldn't of believed this, but looking into it, troubling questions do arise. For instance I didn't realise their loathing of Christianity and Jesus (pbuh). Contrast with the relations between Jews and Muslims which seemed to be better until relatively recently.

I managed to get this book. Jewish Revolutionary Spirit Written from a traditionalist Catholic perspective. An absorbing read.



Blurb on the back

Going beyond merely political explanations for Jewish revolutionary movements, E Michael Jones latest book delves into the theological substratum of a history that has too often been ignored or distorted. This controversial and timely book sees to refocus the ecumenical debate, help us understand the modern world, and perhaps most of all, tell us something about who we are.

Some reviews

… to the mortification of decent Jews like myself, Jews are often on the vanguard when it comes to trashing Christian mores and human dignity, and creating dysfunction whether its undermining gender and marriage or peddling promiscuity, pornography or abortion. … Organized Jewry has sought to portray man as inhabiting a mechanistic universe devoid of inherent design and meaning. In this view, God is an impotent fool who neglects His creation, and Christianity is fogbound superstition. … Organized Jewry has used our idealism to deceive us with Socialism, Communism and Zionism. But to warn Jews of this deceit now constitutes ‘anti-Semitism.’ Surely, Jewish leaders who start wars are the real anti-Semites. They create anti-Semitism to keep ordinary Jews in line. … Jones is the foremost scholar of our time and predicament. This is because he studies the masterful Masonic-Jewish takeover of Western civilization now almost complete. … For a complete history of the New World Order from its inception over 2000 years ago, I recommend The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit.” Henry Makow, Ph.D.

“What is the thesis that has gotten Jones in all this hot water? He says that throughout the past two thousand years, whenever there has been a major movement opposed to the Catholic Church, the Jews have tended to side with those movements, whether religious, social or political. … Now the question: why should this thesis be considered anti-Semitic? The answer: I have no idea. Are Jones’ critics claiming that the Jews have always agreed with the Catholic Church? … Jones makes a case that the Church has had to defend itself on more than one occasion from revolutionary movements in which the Jews played a part, small or large, and the Jews consequently faced the resentment of Christians afterwards. … But the really hot stuff is his discussion of the neo-conservatives. Eyebrows will go up. However, here and throughout the book, his research and analysis is comprehensive and calm. The veins never bulge from Jones’ neck; if there is Jew hatred here, it is immensely cunning. I would hope that Jones’ critics would give him a fair reading rather than continuing to arrange to have his public appearances cancelled. They’re not helping their own case – whatever that case is. It’s really hopeless when anyone who tries to discuss the Jews is instantly accused of being anti-Semitic if his conclusions point out any Jewish misbehavior.” Bradley Rothstein, Gilbert Magazine.

Jones shows how the cultural war that has been going on for a little more than forty years between Catholics and Jews has been characterised by a long string of victories for the Jewish side. He points out that the Jews with whom the liberal Catholic prelates and intellectuals engage in 'dialogue,' are not creatures of the Torah,which is the word of God, but of the Talmud, which is the rabbinical system put in place in later times to, among other things, coerce Jews from converting to Christianity. Professor David O'Connell.

I don't know what to make of it and naive as I may be I don't want it to lead to mindless prejudice and misunderstandings. Being a minority in a society that doesn't like you very much can make you behave in certain ways.

Ill need to think on this.
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Karl
03-03-2018, 02:40 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
First of all, I don't feel pride or shame for my race because I don't care about race. Judaism is not something that I identify with.

The relationship between Talmudic Judaism and Liberal Judaism is complicated. Liberal jews know nothing of the Talmud but still inherit some of its culture. This includes the ability to debate and an acceptance of hypocrisy. But as liberals, they are against all traditional cultures including both Islam and Orthodox Judaism. Liberalism normally isn't a problem because God takes care of it naturally by reducing their birth rate. I support all liberals becoming trans-gendered freaks because that means that they won't reproduce. The problem is that Judaism prevents this natural solution to liberalism as I explained here:

http://www.mikraite.org/The-Judaist-Problem-tp1570.html
Ok, but not caring about race is a liberal concept, as liberals believe race does not even exist but is instead a "social construct" (which is of course totally insane and driven by a malicious political agenda rather than logic). The liberals are working on getting rid of gender as well. Where as non liberals/cultural Marxists DO care about race and heritage and homeland and are of course opposed to the genetic contamination of race mixing.
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fschmidt
03-03-2018, 03:30 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
Ok, but not caring about race is a liberal concept, as liberals believe race does not even exist but is instead a "social construct" (which is of course totally insane and driven by a malicious political agenda rather than logic). The liberals are working on getting rid of gender as well. Where as non liberals/cultural Marxists DO care about race and heritage and homeland and are of course opposed to the genetic contamination of race mixing.
Not caring about race is also an Islamic concept. In the Quran, people are judged by their religion, not by their race. I agree with the Quran.
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Karl
03-03-2018, 11:11 PM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
Not caring about race is also an Islamic concept. In the Quran, people are judged by their religion, not by their race. I agree with the Quran.
Originally Posted by fschmidt
Not caring about race is also an Islamic concept. In the Quran, people are judged by their religion, not by their race. I agree with the Quran.
To care is not necessarily to judge. There is a passage that deals with kith and kin and they should be cared about. It also says that the Jews are a cursed race, this maybe because of their persecution and betrayal of Isa (PBUH) or Jesus. I wouldn't worry about it too much as curses can be lifted.
I don't judge people by their religion, I like variety in all things.
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Misbah-Abd
03-03-2018, 11:48 PM
Worry much about curses and seeking knowledge and guidance to lift it. Don't worry about them is bad, bad advice.
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Zafran
03-04-2018, 02:26 AM
Originally Posted by Karl
To care is not necessarily to judge. There is a passage that deals with kith and kin and they should be cared about. It also says that the Jews are a cursed race, this maybe because of their persecution and betrayal of Isa (PBUH) or Jesus. I wouldn't worry about it too much as curses can be lifted.
I don't judge people by their religion, I like variety in all things.
The Quran doesnt say the Jews were cursed - it criticizes certain people in History in the tribe of Israel as they were the early ummah.

Your history, culture and differnet ethic groups are a sign of God. The Quran says

" O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." - 49.13

However racism, bigotry and supremacy has no place in Islam as the prophet pbuh said in the last sermon (every Muslim should read)

""There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety." - Prophet Muhammad pbuh last sermon.

Its your Iman (faith) akhlaq (character) and your actions (Amal) that matter not who you are although that is a sign of God.
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Moses613
03-04-2018, 04:57 AM
Most of these quotes are baloney or taken out of context. You can get a balanced perspective on all these allegedly scandalous Talmudic quotes at the following site: http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/

The Real Truth About The Talmud
Refuting the accusations that the Talmud is racist....
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fschmidt
03-04-2018, 06:30 AM
Originally Posted by Moses613
Most of these quotes are baloney or taken out of context. You can get a balanced perspective on all these allegedly scandalous Talmudic quotes at the following site: http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/
My Hebrew isn't good enough to be able to judge the Talmud for myself. But the site you linked doesn't seem very convincing. Of the 3 sources I linked to, 2 are from jews who know Hebrew well. What motive would they have to lie about the Talmud? The motive of someone defending the Talmud to lie is obvious.

I attended my local Orthodox synagogue and I was taught that jews have both an animal soul and a divine soul, while non-jews only have an animal soul. All discussion about moral obligations were to other jews. Non-jews are basically considered irrelevant.

After having studied talmudic judaism, I find it to be evil and I feel a moral obligation to warn others of the dangers of talmudic judaism. In America we see that the main activities of jewish groups are to destroy morality and destroy free speech. There seems to be nothing that talmudic judaism hates more than free speech, probably because this threatens their lies.

I urge you to reconsider your religion. Karaite Judaism is a perfectly moral religion. So is Islam and traditional Christianity. At the very least please read the book I linked to by Israel Shahak.
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Misbah-Abd
03-04-2018, 12:40 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
The Quran doesnt say the Jews were cursed - it criticizes certain people in History in the tribe of Israel as they were the early ummah.
Disbelievers from Bani Israel

‘And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their disbelief; so little it is that they believe. And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers.’
(Surah Baqarah, 2: 88-89)


‘But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).’
(Surah Maidah, 5:13)


‘Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:60)


‘Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:78)


‘And they are overtaken by curse in this (world), and on the resurrection day, evil the gift which shall be given.’

(Surah Hud, 11:9
9)

‘And We caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be of those made to appear hideous"
s.’
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Zafran
03-05-2018, 01:15 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Disbelievers from Bani Israel

‘And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their disbelief; so little it is that they believe. And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers.’
(Surah Baqarah, 2: 88-89)


‘But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).’
(Surah Maidah, 5:13)


‘Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:60)


‘Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:78)


‘And they are overtaken by curse in this (world), and on the resurrection day, evil the gift which shall be given.’

(Surah Hud, 11:9
9)

‘And We caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be of those made to appear hideous"
s.’
Indeed some Jews were criticized however......

"And among the people of Moses is a community which guides by truth and by it establishes justice." - verse - 7:159

"They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous." verse - 3:113-114


"And indeed, among the People of the Scripture are those who believe in Allah and what was revealed to you and what was revealed to them, [being] humbly submissive to Allah . They do not exchange the verses of Allah for a small price. Those will have their reward with their Lord. Indeed, Allah is swift in account." 3:199

so mute point.
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Ümit
03-05-2018, 08:00 AM
Originally Posted by Moses613
Most of these quotes are baloney or taken out of context. You can get a balanced perspective on all these allegedly scandalous Talmudic quotes at the following site: http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/

The Real Truth About The Talmud
Refuting the accusations that the Talmud is racist....
Quickly scanned through the article but this is not very convincing at all.

one example:

Accusation about the Talmud:
Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a Gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.
Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog ("Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed").

explanation in defence:

[Exodus 14:5-7 "It was told to the king of Egypt that the people had fled; and the heart of Pharoah and his servants became transformed regarding the people, and they said, 'What is this that we have done that we have sent away Israel from serving us?' He harnessed his chariot and attracted his people with him.] He took six hundred elite chariots [and all the chariots of Egypt, with officers on them all."]
From whom were the animals that drove the chariots? If you say they were from Egypt, doesn't it say (Exodus 9:6) "and all the livestock of Egypt died [from the fifth plague]"? If you say they were from Pharoah, doesn't it say (Exodus 9:3) "[Moses said to Pharoah]: Behold, the hand of G-d is on your livestock that are in the field"? If you say they were from the Jews, doesn't it say (Exodus 10:26) "And our livestock, as well, will go with us- not a hoof will be left"? Rather from whom were they, from the Egyptians who feared G-d [and were not affected by the plagues]. We now see that the livestock of the G-d-fearers that escaped the plague caused great hardship for the Jews [by being used for chariots to pursue them]. From here R. Shimon [ben Yochai] said: Kill [even] the good among the gentiles.
From the above teaching we see that R. Shimon ben Yochai was discussing a case of war. The G-d-fearers among the Egyptians allowed their animals to be used in battle against the Jews. Presumably, these people went along with their animals and drove the chariots. We now see that the G-d-fearers, the "good" among the gentiles, were doing battle with the Jews. To this R. Shimon ben Yochai said that, when in battle, do not try to spare the lives of those opposing soldiers who are fine, upstanding people. Kill any enemy soldier, regardless of their character. This contextual approach to understanding R. Shimon ben Yochai's statement is how the post-Talmudic literature has read this statement [see Tosafot, Avodah Zarah 26b sv Velo; Maimonides, Mishneh Torah, Hilchot Avodah Zarah 10:1]. Reading R. Shimon ben Yochai's teaching as a single-sentence imperative to kill all gentiles is simply wrong and is not how Jewish scholars have ever understood it.

My conclusion about this explanation:
explanation is pretty weak.
Let us assume this really was about the incident Jews fleeing from Egypt and the Pharaoh on their heels with his army.
the question asked is from whom the animals were that drove the chariots since all the live stock of egypt died from the plaque.
so it asserted that the animals were from the god fearing gentiles.
first of all, it is not so that the Jews fled out of egypt the next morning that the plague occured. so, the pharaoh could easily have imported those animals from outside Egypt.
After that plaque, five more plaques happened before Mozes fled out of Egypt, so the Pharaoh had plenty of time to get new livestock.

second, god fearing gentiles allowing the use of their animals for battle against fellow god fearing people does not sound like god fearing at all.
third, there are no Jews, God fearing gentiles, and other gentiles. there are only believers and non-believers. If God allowed those people to keep their livestock, than that is because they were believers.

third, one "assumes" that the god fearing people went along with their animals and drove the charriots. so they not only allowed their animals to be used, they even joined the battle themselves? and then quickly concludes they must be evil. Is that how it works?
just an assumption is enough to convict someone?

So for God those God fearing gentiles have earned mercy because they are God fearing...but for Jews they still not are fellow believers. in battle, every enemy needs to be killed, regardless if harmless or not...they deserve no mercy.
Even war has its rules.

So, even if this explanation was valid....this everything sounds so ugly...I do not want to have anything to do with.
It shows that Jews show no mercy to people even God shows his mercy to.
it shows that an assumption is enough to convict someone.
It shows that even god fearing people are not considered to be one of them.
It shows that Jews see everyone as their enemy in battle. even harmless children, women and elderly people.
they will have no mercy on no one.

and this is just one of the issues in the article...


- - - Updated - - -

accusation:
The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (actually a collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament)."

Defence:

It is indeed interesting that anyone should make this claim about the Talmud. While it is certainly not true that Judaism views the Talmud as being holier than the Bible, what if it were true? How does that in any way show that Judaism is wrong?


conclusion:
so the Thorah is the divine word dictated to Mozes personally...and the Talmud is just a scripture of some rabbi's (human made) and you are asking "what if the Talmud is holier than the Thorah"? are you serious?
and then a whole explanation why the accusation is wrong and examples to prove the opposite.
first, of course the Thorah should be holier than the Talmud...It is God's word against human word.
second, no explanation where the accusation comes from then at all. How are we supposed to interpret Erubin 21b then?
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fschmidt
03-05-2018, 08:24 AM
Originally Posted by umie
first, of course the Thorah should be holier than the Talmud...It is God's word against human word.
Actually according to the Talmud, the rabbis have authority over Earth and God doesn't. In the story of Rabbi Eliezer, Rabbi Eliezer calls God to speak in his defense, which God does, and the other rabbis basically tell God to mind his own business.

https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...Study-Hall.htm

https://youtu.be/tddCNY6U77Y?t=1320
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Ümit
03-05-2018, 08:36 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
Actually according to the Talmud, the rabbis have authority over Earth and God doesn't. In the story of Rabbi Eliezer, Rabbi Eliezer calls God to speak in his defense, which God does, and the other rabbis basically tell God to mind his own business.

https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...Study-Hall.htm

https://youtu.be/tddCNY6U77Y?t=1320
What? I did not know that. It is even worse than I thought...
and why is it that do not write "God", instead, they write "G-d" as if it is a forbidden word.
Anyone?
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Misbah-Abd
03-05-2018, 10:51 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Indeed some Jews were criticized however......

"And among the people of Moses is a community which guides by truth and by it establishes justice." - verse - 7:159

"They are not [all] the same; among the People of the Scripture is a community standing [in obedience], reciting the verses of Allah during periods of the night and prostrating [in prayer]. They believe in Allah and the Last Day, and they enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong and hasten to good deeds. And those are among the righteous." verse - 3:113-114


"And indeed, among the People of the Scripture are those who believe in Allah and what was revealed to you and what was revealed to them, [being] humbly submissive to Allah . They do not exchange the verses of Allah for a small price. Those will have their reward with their Lord. Indeed, Allah is swift in account." 3:199

so mute point.
No it's not a mute point. You made a generalized statement that they were not cursed and the Quran confirms that they were. Swallow your stubbornness and omit that you were wrong. Those verses you quoted are about the People of the Book who accepted the Prophet s.a.a.w and his final revelation and embraced Islam.
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Moses613
03-05-2018, 06:49 PM
Hi fschmidt. The synagogue you attended was obviously Chabad. They are super into their mystical teachings about the soul. Most of them don't have much of an idea of what they're talking about, and their teachings are not based on the words of the Talmud, which says literally nothing about an animal soul and a divine soul. These esoteric teachings are very symbolic and have little to nothing to do with real-life relations between Jews and non-Jews.
Of course there are moral obligations toward non-Jews. For example, here are the words of Maimonides in his seminal codification of (Talmudic) Jewish law:
Anyone who steals property worth a penny or more transgresses the prohibition: "You shall not steal" (Exodus 20:15). One does not incur the penalty of lashes by breaking this prohibition, since the atonement for stealing is obtained by payment of the principal and the fine; the Torah requires the thief to repay. It makes no difference whether one steals the property of a Jew or a non-Jew, or whether one steals from an adult or from a minor.
You can verify the quote here https://www.sefaria.org/Mishneh_Tora...h=all&lang2=en at this open-source, bilingual library of Jewish texts.
I don't know what you're talking about as far as destroying morality. That has nothing to do with Judaism or the Talmud. About 90% of American Jews are non-observant. They wouldn't know what a Talmud was if it hit them in the head. For many, unfortunately, their real religion is liberalism or progressivism. This, again, has nothing to do with the teachings of Judaism.
As for Shahak, an ignorant hack, he is not a serious scholar and does not deserve further discussion. A serious examination of the entirety of Talmudic literature will provide context to show its peaceful ways and provide the ability to understand the true background and limited scope of "quotes" that are thrown around to "prove" the Talmud is anti-Gentile. This is the same as most Muslims would probably prefer their religious literature be viewed in context rather than me just quoting the hadeeth that says if a Jew is hiding behind a rock you should go there and kill him. Some comments made by individual rabbis were directed at the non-Jews of the time who were persecuting the Jewish people (Muslims, does this sound like something you've heard about any passages in Quran or hadeeth?).
Karaite "Judaism" is simply confused mumbo-jumbo, because every Karaite can interpret the Torah as he or she wants without any recourse to tradition (except the Karaite traditions that they themselves admit are made up), so it's basically religion a la carte, choose what you want as you go.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by umie
What? I did not know that. It is even worse than I thought...
and why is it that do not write "God", instead, they write "G-d" as if it is a forbidden word.
Anyone?
The names of God are forbidden to be erased. Therefore, in much Jewish literature, the word is written in a defective way so that when the paper is discarded it will not be a desecration of God's name. This is not necessary on computers where the text does not actually exist in print, but many do it out of habit in any case.

- - - Updated - - -

Originally Posted by fschmidt
Actually according to the Talmud, the rabbis have authority over Earth and God doesn't. In the story of Rabbi Eliezer, Rabbi Eliezer calls God to speak in his defense, which God does, and the other rabbis basically tell God to mind his own business.

https://www.chabad.org/library/artic...Study-Hall.htm

https://youtu.be/tddCNY6U77Y?t=1320
Well, you're totally mischaracterizing what's being said here. What it means is that we follow God's word as stated in the Torah and do not use "miracles," which can be easily misinterpreted, misunderstood or even faked, to determine what God's law is. Rather, we use reason, perhaps familiar to our readers as "ijtihad". Rabbi Eliezer was not a prophet, first of all, so the miracles done on his behalf did not obligate the rabbis to follow his opinion if they determined that it did not meet their criteria of logic. Instead of telling God to "mind His own business," they are actually honoring God by following what it states in the Torah (Deut. 17:8): "If a case is too baffling for you to decide, be it a controversy over homicide, civil law, or assault—matters of dispute in your courts—you shall promptly repair to the place that the LORD your God will have chosen, and appear before the levitical priests, or the magistrate in charge at the time, and present your problem. When they have announced to you the verdict in the case, you shall carry out the verdict that is announced to you from that place that the LORD chose, observing scrupulously all their instructions to you."
No verse of the Torah states, "Go find a Rabbi who will produce a miracle for you to determine the law."
Reply

Karl
03-05-2018, 10:41 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Disbelievers from Bani Israel

‘And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their disbelief; so little it is that they believe. And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers.’
(Surah Baqarah, 2: 88-89)


‘But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).’
(Surah Maidah, 5:13)


‘Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:60)


‘Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:78)


‘And they are overtaken by curse in this (world), and on the resurrection day, evil the gift which shall be given.’

(Surah Hud, 11:9
9)

‘And We caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be of those made to appear hideous"
s.’
Thank you for defending my post. And you are right I should not make light of curses especially from the Creator.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-05-2018, 10:54 PM
From what i seem to understand i think there is a certain branch of jews who actually ascribe some sort of "special" power to the talmudic scholars. Also i dont think jews believe in Jesus pbuh but there a denomination called messianic jews who do i think?? I dont think theyre very accepted tho. Any Jewish folk on here want to enlighten me?
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-05-2018, 10:54 PM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
Not caring about race is also an Islamic concept. In the Quran, people are judged by their religion, not by their race. I agree with the Quran.
100%
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-05-2018, 10:55 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
The Quran doesnt say the Jews were cursed - it criticizes certain people in History in the tribe of Israel as they were the early ummah.

Your history, culture and differnet ethic groups are a sign of God. The Quran says

" O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." - 49.13

However racism, bigotry and supremacy has no place in Islam as the prophet pbuh said in the last sermon (every Muslim should read)

""There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety." - Prophet Muhammad pbuh last sermon.

Its your Iman (faith) akhlaq (character) and your actions (Amal) that matter not who you are although that is a sign of God.
I really love this answer. If only more people thought like you.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-05-2018, 10:57 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Disbelievers from Bani Israel

‘And they say: Our hearts are covered. Nay, Allah has cursed them on account of their disbelief; so little it is that they believe. And when there came to them a Book from Allah verifying that which they have, and aforetime they used to pray for victory against those who disbelieve, but when there came to them (Prophet) that which they did not recognize, they disbelieved in him; so Allah’s curse is on the unbelievers.’
(Surah Baqarah, 2: 88-89)


‘But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from their places and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and you shall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turn away; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others).’
(Surah Maidah, 5:13)


‘Say: Shall I inform you of (him who is) worse than this in retribution from Allah? (Worse is he) whom Allah has cursed and brought His wrath upon, and of whom He made apes and swine, and he who served the Shaitan; these are worse in place and more erring from the straight path.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:60)


‘Those who disbelieved from among the children of Israel were cursed by the tongue of Dawood and Isa, son of Marium; this was because they disobeyed and used to exceed the limit.’
(Surah Maidah, 5:78)


‘And they are overtaken by curse in this (world), and on the resurrection day, evil the gift which shall be given.’

(Surah Hud, 11:9
9)

‘And We caused a curse to follow them in this world, and on the day of resurrection they shall be of those made to appear hideous"
s.’
Thats referencing specific people though. To apply that to all just doesnt work
Reply

Karl
03-05-2018, 10:58 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
The Quran doesnt say the Jews were cursed - it criticizes certain people in History in the tribe of Israel as they were the early ummah.

Your history, culture and differnet ethic groups are a sign of God. The Quran says

" O you men! surely We have created you of a male and a female, and made you tribes and families that you may know each other; surely the most honorable of you with Allah is the one among you most careful (of his duty); surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." - 49.13

However racism, bigotry and supremacy has no place in Islam as the prophet pbuh said in the last sermon (every Muslim should read)

""There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor for a non-Arab over an Arab. Neither is the white superior over the black, nor is the black superior over the white -- except by piety." - Prophet Muhammad pbuh last sermon.

Its your Iman (faith) akhlaq (character) and your actions (Amal) that matter not who you are although that is a sign of God.
Yes it does say the Jews are a cursed race that's why the Jews hate the Quran and want it modified.

Yes all living things have the same right to life, there is no superiority of the species, only differences. There is no "master race" of humans, they all have their strengths and weaknesses.
Reply

Zafran
03-06-2018, 12:06 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
No it's not a mute point. You made a generalized statement that they were not cursed and the Quran confirms that they were. Swallow your stubbornness and omit that you were wrong. Those verses you quoted are about the People of the Book who accepted the Prophet s.a.a.w and his final revelation and embraced Islam.
Heres what I said

Originally Posted by Zafran
The Quran doesnt say the Jews were cursed - it criticizes certain people in History in the tribe of Israel as they were the early ummah.
try to read what is said and not go on the lets blame the Jews - nuanced reading is necessary.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Thats referencing specific people though. To apply that to all just doesnt work
Indeed specific Jews in specific time period were criticized/punished because of the deeds they did. However the Quran makes a distinction and even says not all people of the book are the same. God Knows best.
Reply

fschmidt
03-06-2018, 08:40 AM
@Moses613 I am certainly not a Talmudic scholar, but I have spent some time reading this translation:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

I pick some random area and start to read, and almost everything that I see seems like insane logic. I have read many religious books and I have never seen one less appealing than the Talmud. My favorite book by far is the Old Testament which seems almost completely opposite in style to the Talmud.

The Karaites have issues, just like Protestants and Quranists have issues, because scripture by itself is not enough. But the Old Testament itself points to the solution which is to study history (and science) to find the best interpretation.

Originally Posted by Moses613
I don't know what you're talking about as far as destroying morality. That has nothing to do with Judaism or the Talmud. About 90% of American Jews are non-observant. They wouldn't know what a Talmud was if it hit them in the head. For many, unfortunately, their real religion is liberalism or progressivism. This, again, has nothing to do with the teachings of Judaism.
This points directly to the central problem of Judaism. Because Judaism is racist, the Orthodox defend liberal jews even though their morals are very different. If the Orthodox didn't do this, liberal judaism would die the natural death that it deserves. I wrote about this here:

http://www.mikraite.org/The-Judaist-Problem-tp1570.html

Muslims don't hesitate to criticize immoral Muslim groups like ISIS. But Orthodox Jews never criticize immoral jewish groups. The Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center are guilty of crimes against humanity because of their hatred of free speech and Western values. They are no better than Nazi war criminals and members of these groups deserve to be hung.

As I said in my initial post, regular members of Talmudic Judaism should simply be driven out of a moral society. There is no reason to harm these people. But they are allies of liberal judaism which is pure evil. Orthodox jews generally mind their own business. Liberal jews are traitors to any society that they live in and should be treated as traitors. Orthodox jews are just allies of traitors (based on race), so they should just be forced to leave.
Reply

Ümit
03-06-2018, 08:46 AM
Originally Posted by Moses613

The names of God are forbidden to be erased. Therefore, in much Jewish literature, the word is written in a defective way so that when the paper is discarded it will not be a desecration of God's name. This is not necessary on computers where the text does not actually exist in print, but many do it out of habit in any case.
Oh that is a good reason. thank you for your answer.
I used to have great sympathy for Judaism, because their religions is the closest one to Islam. I talked to some Jews a couple of times, and they really had similar opinions as us Muslims.
The Thorah still is pretty pure and I envied the Jews how they try to live according to their religion.
Now that I have heard about the Talmud, I am shocked...this is totally opposite of what I knew about Judaism.

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Originally Posted by Moses613

The names of God are forbidden to be erased. Therefore, in much Jewish literature, the word is written in a defective way so that when the paper is discarded it will not be a desecration of God's name. This is not necessary on computers where the text does not actually exist in print, but many do it out of habit in any case.
Oh that is a good reason. thank you for your answer.
I used to have great sympathy for Judaism, because their religions is the closest one to Islam. I talked to some Jews a couple of times, and they really had similar opinions as us Muslims.
The Thorah still is pretty pure and I envied the Jews how they try to live according to their religion.
Now that I have heard about the Talmud, I am shocked...this is totally opposite of what I knew about Judaism.
Reply

fschmidt
03-06-2018, 09:01 AM
Originally Posted by Moses613
The names of God are forbidden to be erased. Therefore, in much Jewish literature, the word is written in a defective way so that when the paper is discarded it will not be a desecration of God's name. This is not necessary on computers where the text does not actually exist in print, but many do it out of habit in any case.
@umie I am not sure if I believe this. Exodus 3:15 says "God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation." The vowels for YHVH are unsure so there are a number of possible pronunciations. But Talmudic Judaism avoids all pronunciations. In synagogue, God's name is replaced with "adonai" which means "lord" in Hebrew. But outside of synagogue, the Orthodox just call God "ha-shem" which means the "the name" in Hebrew. So Judaism is doing the exact opposite of what God commanded in Exodus 3:15. I had always assumed that writing G-d was part of this pattern, but I could be wrong.
Reply

Ümit
03-06-2018, 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
@umie I am not sure if I believe this. Exodus 3:15 says "God also said to Moses, “Say this to the Israelites: YHVH, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, has sent me to you. This is My name forever; this is how I am to be remembered in every generation." The vowels for YHVH are unsure so there are a number of possible pronunciations. But Talmudic Judaism avoids all pronunciations. In synagogue, God's name is replaced with "adonai" which means "lord" in Hebrew. But outside of synagogue, the Orthodox just call God "ha-shem" which means the "the name" in Hebrew. So Judaism is doing the exact opposite of what God commanded in Exodus 3:15. I had always assumed that writing G-d was part of this pattern, but I could be wrong.
From this, I understand that Judaism has a hidden dark side. one side is all good and very comparable to Islam, but this other side...about making the Talmud holy, making rabbi's holy...making their own rules...etc...is bad and evil...totally the opposite of each other.
I never knew of this dark side of Judaism until now with this thread.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 10:03 AM
Okay, so please correct me if im wrong , but the Torah is the actual scripture right, and the Talmud is more like a sort of "manual"?
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-06-2018, 10:04 AM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
@Moses613 I am certainly not a Talmudic scholar, but I have spent some time reading this translation:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

I pick some random area and start to read, and almost everything that I see seems like insane logic. I have read many religious books and I have never seen one less appealing than the Talmud. My favorite book by far is the Old Testament which seems almost completely opposite in style to the Talmud.

The Karaites have issues, just like Protestants and Quranists have issues, because scripture by itself is not enough. But the Old Testament itself points to the solution which is to study history (and science) to find the best interpretation.


This points directly to the central problem of Judaism. Because Judaism is racist, the Orthodox defend liberal jews even though their morals are very different. If the Orthodox didn't do this, liberal judaism would die the natural death that it deserves. I wrote about this here:

http://www.mikraite.org/The-Judaist-Problem-tp1570.html

Muslims don't hesitate to criticize immoral Muslim groups like ISIS. But Orthodox Jews never criticize immoral jewish groups. The Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center are guilty of crimes against humanity because of their hatred of free speech and Western values. They are no better than Nazi war criminals and members of these groups deserve to be hung.

As I said in my initial post, regular members of Talmudic Judaism should simply be driven out of a moral society. There is no reason to harm these people. But they are allies of liberal judaism which is pure evil. Orthodox jews generally mind their own business. Liberal jews are traitors to any society that they live in and should be treated as traitors. Orthodox jews are just allies of traitors (based on race), so they should just be forced to leave.
Are orthodox jews like hasidic jews?
Reply

fschmidt
03-06-2018, 08:24 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Are orthodox jews like hasidic jews?
Hasidic judaism is a type of orthodox judaism.
Reply

Karl
03-06-2018, 11:07 PM
Originally Posted by fschmidt
@Moses613 I am certainly not a Talmudic scholar, but I have spent some time reading this translation:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/jud/talmud.htm

I pick some random area and start to read, and almost everything that I see seems like insane logic. I have read many religious books and I have never seen one less appealing than the Talmud. My favorite book by far is the Old Testament which seems almost completely opposite in style to the Talmud.

The Karaites have issues, just like Protestants and Quranists have issues, because scripture by itself is not enough. But the Old Testament itself points to the solution which is to study history (and science) to find the best interpretation.


This points directly to the central problem of Judaism. Because Judaism is racist, the Orthodox defend liberal jews even though their morals are very different. If the Orthodox didn't do this, liberal judaism would die the natural death that it deserves. I wrote about this here:

http://www.mikraite.org/The-Judaist-Problem-tp1570.html

Muslims don't hesitate to criticize immoral Muslim groups like ISIS. But Orthodox Jews never criticize immoral jewish groups. The Anti-Defamation League and Southern Poverty Law Center are guilty of crimes against humanity because of their hatred of free speech and Western values. They are no better than Nazi war criminals and members of these groups deserve to be hung.

As I said in my initial post, regular members of Talmudic Judaism should simply be driven out of a moral society. There is no reason to harm these people. But they are allies of liberal judaism which is pure evil. Orthodox jews generally mind their own business. Liberal jews are traitors to any society that they live in and should be treated as traitors. Orthodox jews are just allies of traitors (based on race), so they should just be forced to leave.
I suppose the "evil" Jews would consider you a traitor as what you say is very dangerous to all Jews. Wouldn't the goy just rationalize that how can we tell the difference between these lying bad Jews and good Jews? Wouldn't it be best to just kill them all to be on the safe side? Been done in the past by pagans and Christians so could happen in the future by pagans, Christians and Muslims etc.
Reply

Moses613
03-08-2018, 03:03 AM
Originally Posted by umie
Oh that is a good reason. thank you for your answer.
I used to have great sympathy for Judaism, because their religions is the closest one to Islam. I talked to some Jews a couple of times, and they really had similar opinions as us Muslims.
The Thorah still is pretty pure and I envied the Jews how they try to live according to their religion.
Now that I have heard about the Talmud, I am shocked...this is totally opposite of what I knew about Judaism.
Rely on your personal experiences rather than what you read trashing the Talmud online. We humbly try to live according to the dictates of our great rabbis as expounded in the Talmud, and believe that if we truly keep its teachings, we will impart goodness and benefit on all humankind. For "Its ways are ways of pleasantness, and all its paths are peace." -Proverbs 3:17.
Unfortunately, many Jews fall short of what our religion calls upon us to do.

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Maimonides, Laws of the Foundations of the Torah, 6:1: "Whosoever willfully destroys an inscription of any of the Holy and Pure Names by which the Holy One, blessed is He! is called, is guilty of a sin punishable under the laws of the Torah with flogging. For, behold, it is said of idolatry: "And ye shall destroy their name from that place, but ye shall not do so unto the Lord your God" (Deut. 22.3–4)."
Reply

SHO
03-08-2018, 06:06 AM
AsSalamu 'Alaykum

Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
The Talmud is a collection of writings from Rabbis through the centuries. It is not a revealed scripture like the Torah or the Psalms of David.
And Allah Knows Best
http://www.manyprophetsonemessage.co...ight-of-islam/

And Allah Knows Best.

Salaam.
S.H.O

Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-08-2018, 10:43 AM
I said the Talmud, not the Torah.
Reply

SHO
03-08-2018, 11:31 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
I said the Talmud, not the Torah.
Salam,brother.
Yes I understood that you spoke about Talmud.
I shared the link because it also talks about Talmud(But it's not mentioned in the title).

eg:
The Qur’an and the Talmud

The Qur’an states that God revealed to the Children of Israel the severity of taking a life and the greatness of saving a life:

Because of that, We decreed upon the Children of Israel that whoever kills a soul unless for a soul or for corruption [done] in the land – it is as if he had slain mankind entirely. And whoever saves one – it is as if he had saved mankind entirely… [Qur’an, 5:32]

This teaching cannot be found in the Old Testament. However, it can be found in the Babylonian Talmud:

Therefore the man was created singly, to teach that he who destroys one soul of a human being, the Scripture considers him as if he should destroy a whole world, and him who saves one soul of Israel, the Scripture considers him as if he should save a whole World. [8]

Judaism as a religion is based not only upon the Old Testament but also upon the Rabbinic tradition of the Talmud. Whereas the Old Testament is the written law that Moses received directly from God, the Talmud is believed to contain the oral law that has been passed down from generation to generation. The purpose of this example is to show that even the Talmud contains some teachings that are divine in origin. In this case it has not been preserved in scripture but rather the traditions of the Rabbis.
The Qur’an relates stories about the Prophets that can be found in the Talmud, for example the story of Abraham and the idols:
I think you did not read the entire page.Please do,if you did not.It is very informative.

Salaam.
S.H.O
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-08-2018, 05:23 PM
Originally Posted by SHO
Salam,brother.
Yes I understood that you spoke about Talmud.
I shared the link because it also talks about Talmud(But it's not mentioned in the title).

eg:


I think you did not read the entire page.Please do,if you did not.It is very informative.

Salaam.
S.H.O
That link also says the Old Testament was the written law that Musa a.s. received directly from God. That is incorrect. Musa was given the Torah which is allegedly considered the first 5 books of the Old Testament by Bible Scholars. And we know that the Jews added and taken out verses that suited their whims and desires. I am not buying it that the Talmud has any divine origins since that link says the Talmud is based on Rabbinic tradition. Rabbi's are not Prophets therefore they didn't receive revelation. Not to mention the hate and evil that its verses contain about the gentiles and Jesus a.s. and his mother. And Allah Knows Best.
Reply

SHO
03-08-2018, 06:00 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
That link also says the Old Testament was the written law that Musa a.s. received directly from God. That is incorrect. Musa was given the Torah which is allegedly considered the first 5 books of the Old Testament by Bible Scholars.
I think the author meant to say "According to Jewish beliefs..." ,because the article's main point is to prove that the Bible is corrupted by humans and is God's word mixed with falsehood.I think the author made a mistake and probably forgot to mention this point.
But he has clearly stated:
2. The Bible of today is a mixture of truth, corruption and revelation.

This position is the understanding that the Bibles of today are a mixture of truth, corruption and revelation. As we will see, it is the position that best explains the collective verses of the Qur’an, ahadith, and the statements of the companions. It is important to point out that the Bibles of today cannot be equated with those scriptures that were originally revealed to Moses and Jesus. That is to say, the Old Testament does not equal the Tawrah, and the New Testament does not equal the Injeel.
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
And we know that the Jews added and taken out verses that suited their whims and desires.
Yes, as stated in the page.

Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
I am not buying it that the Talmud has any divine origins since that link says the Talmud is based on Rabbinic tradition. Rabbi's are not Prophets therefore they didn't receive revelation.
Ok,here's what the article says:
Judaism as a religion is based not only upon the Old Testament but also upon the Rabbinic tradition of the Talmud. Whereas the Old Testament is the written law that Moses received directly from God, the Talmud is believed to contain the oral law that has been passed down from generation to generation. The purpose of this example is to show that even the Talmud contains some teachings that are divine in origin. In this case it has not been preserved in scripture but rather the traditions of the Rabbis.
The point is,the Talmud might contain some teachings of Divine origin,but not a revelation from Allah in its entirety.Please note that the article also mentions things which are not found in today's Bible but found in apocryphal scripts and Talmud. That might mean that some things which were in the Scriptures can be in the Talmud,but as we can see, Talmud, Tawrah, Zabur, or Injeel in the form we see today are not entirely God's words, but rather " are a mixture of truth, corruption and revelation."

Not to mention the hate and evil that its verses contain about the gentiles and Jesus a.s. and his mother. And Allah Knows Best.
As mentioned, the previous scriptures are corrupted, and "are a mixture of truth, corruption and revelation."
I agree that the Talmud is not any Revelation from God in its entirety. My point is, it may contain some part of it.
Reply

Moses613
03-09-2018, 03:02 AM
SHO is starting what I have assumed to be the normative understanding among educated Muslims.

Btw the Talmud says zero about Maryam and very debatable if there are any references to Issa in it.
Reply

Ümit
03-09-2018, 08:01 AM
Originally Posted by SHO
The point is,the Talmud might contain some teachings of Divine origin,but not a revelation from Allah in its entirety.Please note that the article also mentions things which are not found in today's Bible but found in apocryphal scripts and Talmud. That might mean that some things which were in the Scriptures can be in the Talmud,but as we can see, Talmud, Tawrah, Zabur, or Injeel in the form we see today are not entirely God's words, but rather " are a mixture of truth, corruption and revelation."

I agree that the Talmud is not any Revelation from God in its entirety. My point is, it may contain some part of it.
The Talmud is not any revelation from God AT ALL.for what I understand, it is just some rulings made by Rabbi's and passed on generation by generation.
Still it can contain some teachings of divine origin. this is not weird. look at our hadeeth collection. we also have hadeeth which can not be found in the quran, so it is not a revelation from Allah, but still can contain teachings of divine origin.
not completely comparable of course, but you get the picture.

Originally Posted by Moses613
SHO is starting what I have assumed to be the normative understanding among educated Muslims.

Btw the Talmud says zero about Maryam and very debatable if there are any references to Issa in it.
This, I do not believe. because I looked for talmuds online and the first one I found was this:

http://www.come-and-hear.com/sanhedrin/

if you then click on folio 106, you can find this quote:

Balaam also the son of Beor, the soothsayer, [did the children of Israel slay with the sword].40 A soothsayer? But he was a prophet! — R. Johanan said: At first he was a prophet, but subsequently a soothsayer.41 R. Papa observed: This is what men say, 'She who was the descendant of princes and governors, played the harlot with carpenters.'42

footnote 41:

As a punishment for wishing to curse Israel he was degraded from a prophet to a soothsayer.

footnote 42:

'Shipdraggers,' (v. Rashi). Herford, Christianity in the Talmud, p. 48, suggests that Balaam is frequently used in the Talmud as a type for Jesus (v. also pp. 64-70). Though no name is mentioned to shew which woman is meant, the mother of Jesus may be alluded to, which theory is strengthened by the statement that she mated with a carpenter. (The Munich MS. has [H] in the margin instead of [H], i.e., singular instead of plural.)

So it looks like the Talmud indeed speaks badly about the Mary, the mother of Jesus.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-09-2018, 10:51 AM
And it is Divine Justice that Allah Azza wa Jal is sending Jesus a.s. back to the earth, not only to destroy the Dajjal, but those who have disparaged him and his mother for over 2000 years. That's right...keep migrating to the Zionist State O Jewish settlers, keep bulldozing homes of the Palestinians and expanding your settlements. The trees and stones await when they can call you out from where you are hiding from the army of Jesus a.s.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-11-2018, 11:17 AM
Well Jews i think dont believe in Jesus pbuh correct?
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-11-2018, 12:24 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Well Jews i think dont believe in Jesus pbuh correct?
The majority don't but you have a sect called Messianic Jews or aka Jews for Jesus that do believe in him somewhat.
Reply

Moses613
03-12-2018, 03:59 AM
come-and-hear is a website devoted completely to defaming the Talmud. Herford's theory that Balaam is a reference to Jesus has been debunked long ago. Balaam was a(n evil) character in the Bible (Torah) and there is literally no evidence that anything the Talmud says about him is in some way secretly connected to Jesus. Actually the best proof is from the quote you cited, because the Jewish sages would never have said that Jesus "was" a prophet (sorry guys we don't believe in him whatsoever) and then was downgraded. He was never a prophet at all.

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Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
And it is Divine Justice that Allah Azza wa Jal is sending Jesus a.s. back to the earth, not only to destroy the Dajjal, but those who have disparaged him and his mother for over 2000 years. That's right...keep migrating to the Zionist State O Jewish settlers, keep bulldozing homes of the Palestinians and expanding your settlements. The trees and stones await when they can call you out from where you are hiding from the army of Jesus a.s.
"Surely, those who believe, and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians, whoever have faith with true hearts in Allah and in the Last-day and do good deeds, their reward is with their Lord, and there shall be no fear for them nor any grief."
— Qur'an 2:62
Reply

Ümit
03-12-2018, 07:07 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
The majority don't but you have a sect called Messianic Jews or aka Jews for Jesus that do believe in him somewhat.
Hey İ just realized...if the Jews do not believe in Jesus...then they also do not believe in antichrist...
Who is going to fight Dajjal then according to them? Or do they not believe in that at all?
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-12-2018, 07:34 AM
Originally Posted by umie
Hey İ just realized...if the Jews do not believe in Jesus...then they also do not believe in antichrist...
Who is going to fight Dajjal then according to them? Or do they not believe in that at all?
Hmm.
Reply

Ümit
03-12-2018, 07:58 AM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Hmm.
Weird right? Both Christians...as Muslims believe İsa as will come back to Earth one day to fight dajjal. Jews however do not believe in İsa as...so do they then believe that dajjal will appear one day? And if yes, who is going to fight him?
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-12-2018, 09:17 AM
Originally Posted by umie
Weird right? Both Christians...as Muslims believe İsa as will come back to Earth one day to fight dajjal. Jews however do not believe in İsa as...so do they then believe that dajjal will appear one day? And if yes, who is going to fight him?
That is a bit strange(in my opinion)
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-12-2018, 09:53 AM
Originally Posted by umie
Weird right? Both Christians...as Muslims believe İsa as will come back to Earth one day to fight dajjal. Jews however do not believe in İsa as...so do they then believe that dajjal will appear one day? And if yes, who is going to fight him?
They will not recognize the Dajjal and think he is their Messiah and be duped by his false miracles. That is why he will be pursued and killed in the Zionist state. And Allah Knows Best.
pu
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Originally Posted by Moses613
come-and-hear is a website devoted completely to defaming the Talmud. Herford's theory that Balaam is a reference to Jesus has been debunked long ago. Balaam was a(n evil) character in the Bible (Torah) and there is literally no evidence that anything the Talmud says about him is in some way secretly connected to Jesus. Actually the best proof is from the quote you cited, because the Jewish sages would never have said that Jesus "was" a prophet (sorry guys we don't believe in him whatsoever) and then was downgraded. He was never a prophet at all.

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"Surely, those who believe, and the Jews and the Christians and the Sabians, whoever have faith with true hearts in Allah and in the Last-day and do good deeds, their reward is with their Lord, and there shall be no fear for them nor any grief."
— Qur'an 2:62
You will come to know that he was the Messiah. And that verse in the Quran that you referenced is referring to those Jews, Christians and Sabians in the PAST before the advent of Prophet Muhammad s.a.a.w not the ones living afterwards. But nice try legitimizing todays Jews....correction lame attempt.
Reply

Ümit
03-12-2018, 10:18 AM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
That is a bit strange(in my opinion)
You are missing the point here...don't they believe in the prophecy that there will come a dajjal on Earth one day? And someone is going to fight him?
Whether or not they will recognize him is irrelevant.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-12-2018, 10:22 AM
Originally Posted by umie
You are missing the point here...don't they believe in the prophecy that there will come a dajjal on Earth one day? And someone is going to fight him?
Whether or not they will recognize him is irrelevant.
I dont know if they believe in the dajjal or not. I was just stating my opinion lol.
Reply

Ümit
03-12-2018, 10:38 AM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
I dont know if they believe in the dajjal or not. I was just stating my opinion lol.
İ do not know that either...that is why İ am asking.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-13-2018, 05:02 PM
Originally Posted by umie
İ do not know that either...that is why İ am asking.
It appears they dont. Couldnt find much apart from a quora answer saying no as they dont believe in Isa pbuh.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-13-2018, 05:04 PM
Heres a copy and paste job from someone on Quora. Dk how correct it is.( Any jewish board members wanna enlighten us?)

There is no such notion in Judaism for two reasons:

Jews do not believe in “Christ” (or at least do not believe that Jesus is a “Christ” or savior as the word implies), so the notion of an opposite “Antichrist” does not make sense at all and,
Reply

Moses613
03-13-2018, 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Heres a copy and paste job from someone on Quora. Dk how correct it is.( Any jewish board members wanna enlighten us?)

There is no such notion in Judaism for two reasons:

Jews do not believe in “Christ” (or at least do not believe that Jesus is a “Christ” or savior as the word implies), so the notion of an opposite “Antichrist” does not make sense at all and,
Well, "christ" is just the Greek translation of "messiah" which is the Hebrew word for "anointed". So in that sense we believe the Messiah will come, but would never use the terminology Christ due to its associations with Jesus. And there is a prophecy that the Messiah will fight a war with our enemies, but we really don't know much about it beyond that.
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-13-2018, 05:21 PM
Originally Posted by Moses613
Well, "christ" is just the Greek translation of "messiah" which is the Hebrew word for "anointed". So in that sense we believe the Messiah will come, but would never use the terminology Christ due to its associations with Jesus. And there is a prophecy that the Messiah will fight a war with our enemies, but we really don't know much about it beyond that.
Thats interesting. So by messiah, who does that exactly refer to?
Reply

Moses613
03-13-2018, 05:44 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
But nice try legitimizing todays Jews....correction lame attempt.
"Legitimizing"? How about just being nice and polite, as Muhammad said: وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ ۖ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَٰهُنَا وَإِلَٰهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ - 29:46
and not declaring your longing for the day you can kill us.

I mean, unless you consider me to be الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ, but since you don't know me, I don't see why you would.

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Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Thats interesting. So by messiah, who does that exactly refer to?
All kings of Israel were messiah (actually, mâshia
in Hebrew), anointed with the special anointing oil described in the Torah. We believe that in the future, a righteous and prophetic king will arrive and be anointed, and he will re-establish the Children of Israel in their own land, cause all the people of the world to repent and bring peace and harmony to the entire Earth. There will be those who oppose him, and he will fight against them.

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Ok, well that transliteration didn't display properly and I don't know how/if I can edit the post. The word is משיח, "mashiahh" with a
ح sound at the end.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-13-2018, 06:42 PM
Originally Posted by Moses613
"Legitimizing"? How about just being nice and polite, as Muhammad said: وَلَا تُجَادِلُوا أَهْلَ الْكِتَابِ إِلَّا بِالَّتِي هِيَ أَحْسَنُ إِلَّا الَّذِينَ ظَلَمُوا مِنْهُمْ ۖ وَقُولُوا آمَنَّا بِالَّذِي أُنزِلَ إِلَيْنَا وَأُنزِلَ إِلَيْكُمْ وَإِلَٰهُنَا وَإِلَٰهُكُمْ وَاحِدٌ وَنَحْنُ لَهُ مُسْلِمُونَ - 29:46
and not declaring your longing for the day you can kill us.

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When your people are nice and polite to our brothers and sisters in Palestine and not bulldoze their homes that can be a start..
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-13-2018, 06:44 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
When your people are nice and polite to our brothers and sisters in Palestine and not bulldoze their homes that can be a start..
Maybe try and like dont steretype all jews? There are plenty of jews who support palestine just like we cant judge all muslims
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-13-2018, 06:57 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Maybe try and like dont steretype all jews? There are plenty of jews who support palestine just like we cant judge all muslims
Was this post to gather as many likes as you can get?
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-13-2018, 06:58 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Was this post to gather as many likes as you can get?
No, this post was to try and be a nice person. Believe it or not i dont really care about likes.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-13-2018, 07:02 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
No, this post was to try and be a nice person. Believe it or not i dont really care about likes.
I'm gonna throw you one anyways....
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-13-2018, 07:18 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
I'm gonna throw you one anyways....
Thats awfully nice of you. Are you sure you're okay with liking my post?
Reply

Ümit
03-13-2018, 07:39 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Was this post to gather as many likes as you can get?
Unlike cinnamon...this post of yours was definitely not to gather as many likes as you can get...
I guess you tried to be funny and sarcastic or something like that...
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-13-2018, 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by umie
Unlike cinnamon...this post of yours was definitely not to gather as many likes as you can get...
I guess you tried to be funny and sarcastic or something like that...
You gotta shake your head at Muslims nowadays. Defending the kuffar won't get you anywhere. No wala and bara. But I get it, you live in Darul Kufr so its best to appease them. And speaking the truth about Jews will get you arrested in Germany. :facepalm:
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-13-2018, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
You gotta shake your head at Muslims nowadays. Defending the kuffar won't get you anywhere. No wala and bara. But I get it, you live in Darul Kufr so its best to appease them. And speaking the truth about Jews will get you arrested in Germany. :facepalm:
Lol no. I dont seek to appease anyone apart from God. You just seem to love stereotyping folk and being negative. Besides, Jews are ahlul kitab. before you burst a blood vessel i am referring to your regular jews not your zionists who support israel.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-13-2018, 11:27 PM
Originally Posted by cinnamonrolls1
Lol no. I dont seek to appease anyone apart from God. You just seem to love stereotyping folk and being negative. Besides, Jews are ahlul kitab. before you burst a blood vessel i am referring to your regular jews not your zionists who support israel.
Jews are Ahlu kitab. So does that mean they are something special? Allah Azza wa Jal tells us not to take the Jews and Christians as friends and protectors (3:118). And never will the Jews and Christians be pleased with you until you follow their religion (2:120). Now, is Allah stereotyping also? Do you people even bother reading the Quran? As for the "regular Jews" those ARE the ones that support the Zionist State. The small minority don't. And that is a small minority. Its not about being negative. Its about being truthful. Its about shunning the political correction nonsense.
Reply

Zafran
03-13-2018, 11:45 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Jews are Ahlu kitab. So does that mean they are something special? Allah Azza wa Jal tells us not to take the Jews and Christians as friends and protectors (3:118). And never will the Jews and Christians be pleased with you until you follow their religion (2:120). Now, is Allah stereotyping also? Do you people even bother reading the Quran? As for the "regular Jews" those ARE the ones that support the Zionist State. The small minority don't. And that is a small minority. Its not about being negative. Its about being truthful. Its about shunning the political correction nonsense.
Political correctness sounds "dar ul Kufr" speech is rubbing on to you - Jews are Aluhl Kitab that means they are monotheist. Does not mean we take our din from them or that they are our Awaliya (as they dont accept the Quran or sunnah), just like they dont treat us in the same way. If you got a problem with Zionism make a thread and dont derail it. You wouldn't like people Blaming you for ISIS.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-13-2018, 11:53 PM
Originally Posted by Zafran
Political correctness sounds "dar ul Kufr" speech is rubbing on to you - Jews are Aluhl Kitab that means they are monotheist. Does not mean we take our din from them or that they are our Awaliya (as they dont accept the Quran or sunnah), just like they dont treat us in the same way. If you got a problem with Zionism make a thread and dont derail it. You wouldn't like people Blaming you for ISIS.
This thread is the best topic to discuss Zionism since it has a relation with the Talmud which is what the OP brought up in his post.
Reply

Zafran
03-14-2018, 12:00 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
This thread is the best topic to discuss Zionism since it has a relation with the Talmud which is what the OP brought up in his post.
No he doesnt - Talmud is an ancient book - Zionist movements is a modern movement (a bit like salafis). Where is the connection?
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-14-2018, 12:09 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
No he doesnt - Talmud is an ancient book - Zionist movements is a modern movement (a bit like salafis). Where is the connection?
Talmud is embraced by the Zionist movement so it has a place in this thread.
Reply

Zafran
03-14-2018, 12:12 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Talmud is embraced by the Zionist movement so it has a place in this thread.
No it isnt - the Zionist movement is based on all sorts of Jews including ones that are atheist and liberal. Orthodox, communist etc etc. You going to drag that in the thread just because you want to derail it to Zionism.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-14-2018, 12:18 AM
Originally Posted by Zafran
No it isnt - the Zionist movement is based on all sorts of Jews including ones that are atheist and liberal. Orthodox, communist etc etc. You going to drag that in the thread just because you want to derail it to Zionism.
Yes, Zionism has everything to do with today's Jews. Though some liberal Jews will hide it, down inside they have an affinity with the Zionist State and its well being.
Reply

Zafran
03-14-2018, 12:21 AM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Yes, Zionism has everything to do with today's Jews. Though some liberal Jews will hide it, down inside they have an affinity with the Zionist State and its well being.
Back to the Talmud.........
Reply

Moses613
03-14-2018, 06:53 PM
Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
You gotta shake your head at Muslims nowadays. Defending the kuffar won't get you anywhere. No wala and bara. But I get it, you live in Darul Kufr so its best to appease them. And speaking the truth about Jews will get you arrested in Germany. :facepalm:
Sounds like you're a sicko Jew hater. "The truth about Jews" - meanwhile, I'll probably get banned from the board for calling you out.

It's an authentic Muslim value to live in peace with Jews. Being respectful is not "defending the kuffar". Blaming all Jews for certain unfair actions or perceived oppressions in Israel is not advancing the cause of Islam. It's the lazy way to feel like you're righteous instead of trying to deal with a complex reality.

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Originally Posted by Misbah-Abd
Yes, Zionism has everything to do with today's Jews. Though some liberal Jews will hide it, down inside they have an affinity with the Zionist State and its well being.
Yes, we can disagree with injustices that were done in the name of Zionism, sympathize with the Palestinians, and still be thankful that Allah is protecting us and has returned us to our historic and spiritual homeland.

As far as the connection between Zionism and Talmud, the original Zionist were secularists. They didn't care about what the Talmud says. Religious Jews follow the Talmud's teachings to deal fairly and justly with all people, Jewish and non-Jewish.
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-14-2018, 07:17 PM
Originally Posted by Moses613
Sounds like you're a sicko Jew hater. "The truth about Jews" - meanwhile, I'll probably get banned from the board for calling you out.

It's an authentic Muslim value to live in peace with Jews. Being respectful is not "defending the kuffar". Blaming all Jews for certain unfair actions or perceived oppressions in Israel is not advancing the cause of Islam. It's the lazy way to feel like you're righteous instead of trying to deal with a complex reality.

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Yes, we can disagree with injustices that were done in the name of Zionism, sympathize with the Palestinians, and still be thankful that Allah is protecting us and has returned us to our historic and spiritual homeland.

As far as the connection between Zionism and Talmud, the original Zionist were secularists. They didn't care about what the Talmud says. Religious Jews follow the Talmud's teachings to deal fairly and justly with all people, Jewish and non-Jewish.

You can call me whatever you want. Unlike most people, I don't backdown from the jews calling me names. You did one thing correct though. You don't dare call me anti-semitic because I didn't say anything disparaging about Semitic peoples. You get where I am going with that, ashkenazi? Advancing the cause of Islam has nothing to do with speaking the truth about you people. Get over yourselves. As far as your "historical and spiritual" homeland, that would be in Khazaria not Palestine. The Talmud speaks about dealing fairly with their own and not the gentiles, or is it the goyim?
Reply

cinnamonrolls1
03-14-2018, 07:54 PM
Originally Posted by Moses613
Sounds like you're a sicko Jew hater. "The truth about Jews" - meanwhile, I'll probably get banned from the board for calling you out.

It's an authentic Muslim value to live in peace with Jews. Being respectful is not "defending the kuffar". Blaming all Jews for certain unfair actions or perceived oppressions in Israel is not advancing the cause of Islam. It's the lazy way to feel like you're righteous instead of trying to deal with a complex reality.

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Yes, we can disagree with injustices that were done in the name of Zionism, sympathize with the Palestinians, and still be thankful that Allah is protecting us and has returned us to our historic and spiritual homeland.

As far as the connection between Zionism and Talmud, the original Zionist were secularists. They didn't care about what the Talmud says. Religious Jews follow the Talmud's teachings to deal fairly and justly with all people, Jewish and non-Jewish.
But its not jews homeland tho... Dont wanna argue but each to their own
Reply

Misbah-Abd
03-14-2018, 11:04 PM
Originally Posted by Shoppy
I'm wondering why are there so few Jews? Islam came much later and there are almost 2 billion Muslims, yet only 20 million Jews.
There would of been even less if the peoples of Khazaria never converted to Judaism in the 10th century.
Reply

Zafran
03-15-2018, 01:58 AM
Originally Posted by Shoppy
I'm wondering why are there so few Jews? Islam came much later and there are almost 2 billion Muslims, yet only 20 million Jews.
Simply because it is not a universal religion like Islam and Christianity. The religion isn't missionary/Dawah based. Its tribal. Hinduism is similar - its region based. Most Hindus still live in India.
Reply

Junon
04-22-2018, 10:36 PM
Salaam

Like to contribute, interesting insight into what Jews believe.

Ask the Rabbi: Why Don’t Jews Believe in Original Sin?


Why Don’t Jews Believe in Original Sin? This is a delicate question, as it exposes one of the fundamental differences between the Christian outlook and the Jewish one.... So what, in fact, do Jews believe?

Consider the terms tov and ra, conventionally translated, as I wrote before, as “good” and “evil.” At every stage of the world’s creation, G-d pronounced it tov before proceeding to the next stage. On the creation of mankind, He pronounced it tov me’od (“very good”), and there is no indication thereafter that He changed his mind.

Ra does not actually mean “evil” in the English sense of the word. Some glimmering of its actual meaning can be ascertained from some of the other ways that the root is used. For instance, in Psalms II, 9 King David beseeches G-d to deal with his enemies: Tero‘em beshevet barzel (“You should smash them with an iron rod”), or in Isaiah XXIV, 19 the prophet begins his description of an earthquake: Ra’o hithro‘a‘a ha’aretz ("the Earth is completely shaken”). From these, we can see that it means something like “unstable, broken, dysfunctional” and therefore “bad.”

Human beings come into this world innocent of anything, but possessed of a capacity for good (commonly termed the yetzer hatov) as well as a destructive capacity, commonly termed the yetzer hara. The yetzer hara presents all the physical urges, the needs and wants, of the physical body which, like everything else in the physical realm, is subject to entropy -- that is, it wears out and falls apart. But he is also provided with a soul, whose highest purpose is to control those urges and channel them into positive actions.

To this end, children are provided with parents and other mentors, whose job it is to teach them right from wrong and self-control, so that his soul is capable of taking charge and leading a proper, sanctified life. Until that moment when he is capable of taking over, any “sins” that the child commits are the responsibility of the parent.

So when does a Jewish individual begin to sin? At the age of bar or bath mitzva. These terms mean “son or daughter of the commandments” because on reaching that age, they become subject to the 613 commandments in the Torah, and their parents are no longer responsible for their actions. This landmark occurs when a boy is 13 years old and a girl is 12. One of the most emotional moments of the bar mitzva ceremony comes when the boy’s father pronounces the blessing, baruch sheptarani me‘onsho shel ze (“Blessed is He who has exempted me from this one’s punishment”).

What is the Jewish concept of the satan? Well, we agree with the Christians that he is a mal’ach, conventionally translated “angel,” but there’s nothing “fallen” about him. He works for the same Divine Boss as all the other mal’achim. Think of the satan (the word means “adversary”) as the proctor of an exam. The proctor isn’t actively rooting for you to fail the test; to the contrary, he wants you to pass. But he administers a tough test, to be certain that it tests all your capabilities and that you’ve mastered the material, i.e. the life lessons available from one’s parents and other mentors. If you manage to pass the test, no one is happier than the satan.

https://pjmedia.com/faith/ask-rabbi-dont-jews-believe-original-sin/
Reply

KaifaHaluKa
04-23-2018, 02:02 AM
Talmud is only minor purpose why Jews was arise , what do you think ?
Reply

Ümit
04-23-2018, 09:55 AM
@Junon
Thanks for claring this up for us. Now I know a little more about Jews view on this subject. I cannot say I agree on this, but I do understand their view.

Originally Posted by Junon
Salaam

Like to contribute, interesting insight into what Jews believe.

Ask the Rabbi: Why Don’t Jews Believe in Original Sin?


Why Don’t Jews Believe in Original Sin? This is a delicate question, as it exposes one of the fundamental differences between the Christian outlook and the Jewish one.... So what, in fact, do Jews believe?

Consider the terms tov and ra, conventionally translated, as I wrote before, as “good” and “evil.” At every stage of the world’s creation, G-d pronounced it tov before proceeding to the next stage. On the creation of mankind, He pronounced it tov me’od (“very good”), and there is no indication thereafter that He changed his mind.

Ra does not actually mean “evil” in the English sense of the word. Some glimmering of its actual meaning can be ascertained from some of the other ways that the root is used. For instance, in Psalms II, 9 King David beseeches G-d to deal with his enemies: Tero‘em beshevet barzel (“You should smash them with an iron rod”), or in Isaiah XXIV, 19 the prophet begins his description of an earthquake: Ra’o hithro‘a‘a ha’aretz ("the Earth is completely shaken”). From these, we can see that it means something like “unstable, broken, dysfunctional” and therefore “bad.”

Human beings come into this world innocent of anything, but possessed of a capacity for good (commonly termed the yetzer hatov) as well as a destructive capacity, commonly termed the yetzer hara. The yetzer hara presents all the physical urges, the needs and wants, of the physical body which, like everything else in the physical realm, is subject to entropy -- that is, it wears out and falls apart. But he is also provided with a soul, whose highest purpose is to control those urges and channel them into positive actions.

To this end, children are provided with parents and other mentors, whose job it is to teach them right from wrong and self-control, so that his soul is capable of taking charge and leading a proper, sanctified life. Until that moment when he is capable of taking over, any “sins” that the child commits are the responsibility of the parent.
until here everything is clear...but then...
Originally Posted by Junon

So when does a Jewish individual begin to sin? At the age of bar or bath mitzva. These terms mean “son or daughter of the commandments” because on reaching that age, they become subject to the 613 commandments in the Torah, and their parents are no longer responsible for their actions. This landmark occurs when a boy is 13 years old and a girl is 12. One of the most emotional moments of the bar mitzva ceremony comes when the boy’s father pronounces the blessing, baruch sheptarani me‘onsho shel ze (“Blessed is He who has exempted me from this one’s punishment”).
Blessed is he who has exempted me from this one's punishment? how selfisch does that sound? The parent is not exempted at all. yes the individual can make a decision between right and wrong on its own at that age, but still he is dependant of what is been taught. If the parent did not teach him anything, or wrong morals or insufficient, then the parent is still responsible for at least some of the part of the sins this individual makes.

For example, if I was used to drink every evening in front of my child, or gamble, swear, talk bad around someones back....and later on my child does the same...just because I was a bad example for him...then I cannot expect that I am 100% exempted from all sins he is going to make because of this.
Originally Posted by Junon

What is the Jewish concept of the satan? Well, we agree with the Christians that he is a mal’ach, conventionally translated “angel,” but there’s nothing “fallen” about him. He works for the same Divine Boss as all the other mal’achim. Think of the satan (the word means “adversary”) as the proctor of an exam. The proctor isn’t actively rooting for you to fail the test; to the contrary, he wants you to pass. But he administers a tough test, to be certain that it tests all your capabilities and that you’ve mastered the material, i.e. the life lessons available from one’s parents and other mentors. If you manage to pass the test, no one is happier than the satan.

https://pjmedia.com/faith/ask-rabbi-...-original-sin/
I understand how Jews see Satan. similar like the Angel of Death...bad image because he is a creature who takes one's soul away, and therefore much hated, but he is just an angel doing his job.
Satan is different though. He refused to obey God and tries to distract us from the right path.
and he would be very happy if we failed the test.
Reply

Junon
09-06-2018, 11:12 PM
Salaam

Not sure what to make of it but like to share.

Reply

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