Originally Posted by Moses613
Quickly scanned through the article but this is not very convincing at all.
Accusation about the Talmud:
Jews May Rob and Kill Non-Jews, Sanhedrin 57a . When a Jew murders a Gentile ("Cuthean"), there will be no death penalty. What a Jew steals from a Gentile he may keep.
Minor Tractates. Soferim 15, Rule 10. This is the saying of Rabbi Simon ben Yohai: Tob shebe goyyim harog
("Even the best of the gentiles should all be killed").
explanation in defence:
[Exodus 14:5-7 "It was told to the king of Egypt that the people had fled; and the heart of Pharoah and his servants became transformed regarding the people, and they said, 'What is this that we have done that we have sent away Israel from serving us?' He harnessed his chariot and attracted his people with him.] He took six hundred elite chariots
[and all the chariots of Egypt, with officers on them all."]
From whom were the animals that drove the chariots? If you say they were from Egypt, doesn't it say (Exodus 9:6) "and all the livestock of Egypt died [from the fifth plague]"? If you say they were from Pharoah, doesn't it say (Exodus 9:3) "[Moses said to Pharoah]: Behold, the hand of G-d is on your livestock that are in the field"? If you say they were from the Jews, doesn't it say (Exodus 10:26) "And our livestock, as well, will go with us- not a hoof will be left"? Rather from whom were they, from the Egyptians who feared G-d [and were not affected by the plagues]. We now see that the livestock of the G-d-fearers that escaped the plague caused great hardship for the Jews [by being used for chariots to pursue them]. From here R. Shimon [ben Yochai] said: Kill [even] the good among the gentiles.
From the above teaching we see that R. Shimon ben Yochai was discussing a case of war. The G-d-fearers among the Egyptians allowed their animals to be used in battle against the Jews. Presumably, these people went along with their animals and drove the chariots. We now see that the G-d-fearers, the "good" among the gentiles, were doing battle with the Jews. To this R. Shimon ben Yochai said that, when in battle, do not try to spare the lives of those opposing soldiers who are fine, upstanding people. Kill any enemy soldier, regardless of their character. This contextual approach to understanding R. Shimon ben Yochai's statement is how the post-Talmudic literature has read this statement [see Tosafot, Avodah Zarah 26b sv Velo; Maimonides, Mishneh Torah
, Hilchot Avodah Zarah 10:1]. Reading R. Shimon ben Yochai's teaching as a single-sentence imperative to kill all gentiles is simply wrong and is not how Jewish scholars have ever understood it.
My conclusion about this explanation:
explanation is pretty weak.
Let us assume this really was about the incident Jews fleeing from Egypt and the Pharaoh on their heels with his army.
the question asked is from whom the animals were that drove the chariots since all the live stock of egypt died from the plaque.
so it asserted that the animals were from the god fearing gentiles.
first of all, it is not so that the Jews fled out of egypt the next morning that the plague occured. so, the pharaoh could easily have imported those animals from outside Egypt.
After that plaque, five more plaques happened before Mozes fled out of Egypt, so the Pharaoh had plenty of time to get new livestock.
second, god fearing gentiles allowing the use of their animals for battle against fellow god fearing people does not sound like god fearing at all.
third, there are no Jews, God fearing gentiles, and other gentiles. there are only believers and non-believers. If God allowed those people to keep their livestock, than that is because they were believers.
third, one "assumes" that the god fearing people went along with their animals and drove the charriots. so they not only allowed their animals to be used, they even joined the battle themselves? and then quickly concludes they must be evil. Is that how it works?
just an assumption is enough to convict someone?
So for God those God fearing gentiles have earned mercy because they are God fearing...but for Jews they still not are fellow believers. in battle, every enemy needs to be killed, regardless if harmless or not...they deserve no mercy.
Even war has its rules.
So, even if this explanation was valid....this everything sounds so ugly...I do not want to have anything to do with.
It shows that Jews show no mercy to people even God shows his mercy to.
it shows that an assumption is enough to convict someone.
It shows that even god fearing people are not considered to be one of them.
It shows that Jews see everyone as their enemy in battle. even harmless children, women and elderly people.
they will have no mercy on no one.
and this is just one of the issues in the article...
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The Talmud is Judaism's holiest book (actually a collection of books). Its authority takes precedence over the Old Testament in Judaism. Evidence of this may be found in the Talmud itself, Erubin 21b (Soncino edition): "My son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the Scribes than in the words of the Torah (Old Testament)."
It is indeed interesting that anyone should make this claim about the Talmud. While it is certainly not true that Judaism views the Talmud as being holier than the Bible, what if it were true? How does that in any way show that Judaism is wrong?
so the Thorah is the divine word dictated to Mozes personally...and the Talmud is just a scripture of some rabbi's (human made) and you are asking "what if the Talmud is holier than the Thorah"? are you serious?
and then a whole explanation why the accusation is wrong and examples to prove the opposite.
first, of course the Thorah should be holier than the Talmud...It is God's word against human word.
second, no explanation where the accusation comes from then at all. How are we supposed to interpret Erubin 21b then?