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Zzz_
06-13-2018, 10:40 PM
As'salaamu alaikum,

I have been conversing in PM with a fellow member from here who is a convert bro residing in europe. The topics we have touched are genetics, human origin, races, and of the sort. With his permission, i'm opening this thread so we can get more views on the matter, both, in terms of Islam and in terms of science. I"ll share some of his views and what I"ve stated to start off.


Does mankind have one origin, one adam and eve ?


I said,

Regarding taking Adam's story literally. Yes, you have to take that literally bro. Not only all 3 abrahamic faiths tell the same story but the Quran clearly states the origin of man. Deny that is denying the verses, which is tantamount to disbelief.

(Remember) when your Lord said to the angels: "Truly, I am going to create man from clay". So when I have fashioned him and breathed into him (his) soul created by Me, then you fall down prostrate to him." (Quran 38:71-72)

“And God said: ‘O Mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam) and from Him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve), and from them both He created many men and women.’” (Quran 4:1)

His was of the view,

I don't take kindly someone of a different race to me trying to appropriate me and those of my race as being one of theirs. I don't belong to "THE human race", I belong to MY own and unique separate race.

I don't take the Adam story literally. I believe the black clay means carbon, so "Adam" is all organic life which is different from those made from smokeless fire or pure energy. There are many species of particular animals so how can there be only "one species" of people? Impossible! Especially since they look so amazingly different to each other! I believe that the "one human species" propaganda is just political to make people united under a totalitarian world order.

As for the belief that all humans come from Adam and Eve, who is to say then that there weren't MULTIPLE Adams and Eves -- Adams and Eves for every respective race?

As for the Adam and Eve story, that is more a metaphorical rather than literal. The Quran is actually packed with many metaphorical statements. The reason why the Adam and Eve story is not literal is because a) if there were only two people originally on Earth, they would have probably been killed by a predator or some accident or some disease or some other thing, b) all humans would look the same, they would look like members of one big family. They would share a physical RESEMBLANCE, but they DON'T. The different races of humans look VERY different! -- some much more different than others. And c) If Islamic law is perfect then why would it prohibit incest? If every human hypothetically WERE of two original breeding partners then ALL human breeding would be an act of incest and inbreeding that would have been going on for thousands or even millions of years! Right? So this is why the Adam and Eve story is a metaphorical story. It can NOT be literal as it would simply defy all scientific logic!
If one adam and one eve was the beginning then how did we spread?

‘Abbas, by Murrah from Ibn Mas‘ood and by other companions of the Prophet (peace be upon him) that Adam did not have (in his grandchildren) a baby boy unless it was accompanied by a girl, so he married the male of a couple to the female of another, and the female of a couple to the male of another.


If we look at it from a scientific view point then Richard Buggs, an Oxford University-trained evolutionary genomicist at Queen Mary University of London, sheds light on this.

"...population geneticists (M. Nei, T. Maruyama and R. Chakraborty 1975 Evolution, 29(1):1-10) showed that even a bottleneck of a single pair would not lead to massive decreases in genetic diversity, if followed by rapid population growth... From a bottleneck of a single fertilised female, if population size doubles every generation, after many generations the population will have over half of the heterozygosity of the population before the bottleneck (Barton and Charlesworth 1984, Ann. Rev. Ecol. Syst. 15:133-64). If population growth is faster than this, the proportion of heterozygosity maintained will be higher. This means that a single pair of individuals can carry a great deal of heterozygosity with them through a bottleneck, if they come from an ancestral population with high diversity, and they will pass that on to the population they found, so long as it grows rapidly..." - https://evolutionnews.org/2018/01/ad...etic-diversity


I said Allah says He created us in tribes and nations so we can get to know one another and that inter-race marriages make good looking babies. And that intermarrying creates a bigger gene pool and strengthens the traits and genes your kids will inherit.

He was of the view,

Then that is your opinion that mixed race offspring don't look like abominable freaks. But it certainly IS my opinion (as well as all my friends) that the hybrid offspring off different races DO look like abominable freaks. Also take note of what Mohammed Ali said--- HE was a Muslim who DID agree with me! He stood up for black rights, and he was fiercely against race mixing as he knew it ruins the natural beauty of each race in its untainted form. Miscegenation is PARTICULARLY bad when the races are very dissimilar and extraneous physically. You regard the offspring of mixed-race couples as "looking better" while I see such offspring as the hideous work of Shaytan and products of the emerging totalitarian Jew World Order.

The North European races are MORE than big enough in member numbers not to have to borrow from different races to "strengthen the gene pools"!! We have PLENTY ENOUGH genetic diversity as free standing races!
And he is of the view that his european race is big and strong and is incompatible with the little poodle asian race to inter marry.


EVERY member of my race are big strong and masculine. This is yet another reason why I would never want to race mix with a diminutive cute little Asian. They are simply INCOMPATIBLE for me to breed with as they are likely to cause my sons to become puny and effeminate looking. And I would have my friends laugh at me as they will say "Your sons look like puny effeminate homos, hahahaha!" I do NOT want that to happen, therefore I will have it no other way except to breed with a BIG STRONG TEUTONIC WIFE who CAN produce me big strong masculine featured sons! And not that any off my offspring would ever want to contaminate our genes through the disgusting act of race mixing as they have common sense and are hard-wired against such degenerate behaviour, but IF they hypothetically DID want to I would have no other choice except to kill them. I will NOT have any of my offspring embarrass me.
My last reply to him was that the white europeans came from the little brown asians he looks down upon so much. The white people are the newest kid on the block, not someone superior as they think but rather as a result of a mutation of one of those brown people, much like how their blue eyes are also a result of mutation and deviation from the normal masses of the time. There are different studies on this subject. One study shows the irish descendant from the syrians. Another study shows most euopeans most likely came from people of hindus Valley (indian subcontinent) since they show the most variation in skin complexion within their group and also most variation in their skin color change (tanning) from sun light exposure vs lack of sun light.




http://www.irishcentral.com/roots/th...239671671.html
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Silas
06-14-2018, 02:47 AM
Attachment 6436

These girls are from the Udmurt people who live just north of the Black Sea--they are an ancient people who are ancestors of the Finns. Scientists believe that the gene for red hair came from here, and even spread to the Mongols (Ghengis Khan was said to have had red hair). The Udmurt speak an ancient, almost unique language, and they are still pagans.
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Zzz_
06-14-2018, 04:19 AM
Interestingly enough there are native people in north north of pakistan that are very white looking, speak very ancient and unique language and are also still pagan.
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Ümit
06-14-2018, 09:39 AM
If these are the words of a convert, then his convertion to Islam is not entirely complete I'm afraid.
We Muslims believe that Adam (as) was human, and not clay or coal. We are NOT christians who can interpret verses the way that suits them best. We interpret hadeeth and verses literally...in the way they were meant.
For a Muslim is every race equal...and we tend to be grateful and humble people...we do not look down on other races...cultures...or people...
Multiple Adams and Eves? how ridiculous is that?
I could make counter arguments to every reason he came up with "The reason why the Adam and Eve story is not literal is because..." But I do not see it very usefull arguing with this guy.

About Mohammed Ali...yeah...that was such an intelligent Alim and boxer...If he has said that, then it must be true...right? If we cannot trust Mohammad Ali, then who can we trust?

"The North European races are MORE than big enough in member numbers not to have to borrow from different races to "strengthen the gene pools"!! We have PLENTY ENOUGH genetic diversity as free standing races!"
That is a strong claim, backed up with solid scientific facts and research.

"EVERY member of my race are big strong and masculine. This is yet another reason why I would never want to race mix with a diminutive cute little Asian."
This sentence alone would be enough reason for me to stop every discussion with this guy immediately.

He might die as a Muslim now, but the conversion appearantly did not make him a better man.

I do not want to say anymore about this...I am sorry.
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Abz2000
06-14-2018, 09:58 AM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zzz_
Interestingly enough there are native people in north north of pakistan that are very white looking, speak very ancient and unique language and are also still pagan.
Is it the place kipling was talking about?
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Abz2000
06-14-2018, 10:57 AM
Best to inform the individual that the decision to categorize humans as one race with equal accountability before a single law is Allah's - so that the individual doesn't feel insulted or rejected unless out of invalid arrogance - which is his own responsibility to come to terms with.

It is Allah who has sent His messenger with GUIDANCE and the way of life based on sincere truth and justice so that it prevails over all other ways of life - even if the polytheists and rejecters of truth and justice reject it.


I would normally tend to interpret the term "race" as that of the human family (although i do sometimes slip into using previously commonly used terms such as "mixed-race" simply for the sake of not pausing to make a description) and believe it best to get into the habit of using terms such as "tribe" and "clan" to describe groupings of people based on immediate hereditary branch - even the term "sub-race" feels appalling.

Anyways, in this recent age of internet communication, matrimonial match-finding and cheap global travel - mankind is being re-squidged together again and we'd be hard pressed to describe a person with two generations of mixed tribal ancestry (e.g semitic paternal gramp, german paternal gran, african maternal gramp and japanese maternal gran) - hopefully simply human instead of mongrel.
Anyways, expect it to get common in future - especially with the increasing prevalence of English and Arabic over all other languages.

As for the rest of it - i believe it's easy for anyone to see the weakness of the arguments and consider it unnecessary to have to bother to spend time refuting it although whoever wills to may.


@umie
The North European races are MORE than big enough in member numbers not to have to borrow from different races to "strengthen the gene pools"!! We have PLENTY ENOUGH genetic diversity as free standing races!"


That is a strong claim, backed up with solid scientific facts and research.
Was that sarcasm in the reply? If so (humbly) please avoid it since Allah instructs us to avoid it
One possible reason i can think of for this is that the psychological smile it causes can be subconsciously interpreted as a positive yes by the brain and be filed accordingly despite the users attempt to make it lightly fly over without consequence - in contrast to a well informed psychological rejection of any given information.

Anyways, if in the not too distant future a tribe of people came across a climatic or other condition and found themselves dying out over the span of a few generations due to a lack of dominance of a certain gene, they'd be likely hard pressed to milk it out of their tribe. And from the way the individual comes across - people of such a selfish mentality would probably go after the people holding the treasured gene like african witch doctors go after albinos.


كَلَّا إِنَّ الْإِنسَانَ لَيَطْغَىٰ

Rather al insaan transgresses


أَن رَّآهُ اسْتَغْنَىٰ

In that he sees himself as rich/independent/free of needs/self-sufficient

إِنَّ إِلَىٰ رَبِّكَ الرُّجْعَىٰ

Indeed, to your Lord Is the return.

From Quran Chapter 96.
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Ümit
06-14-2018, 11:39 AM
@Abz2000
yes it was sarcasm...and I'm sorry...got carried away a little too much...it's that this arrogant point of view did make me angry a little...but OK...thanks for correcting me

PS...I did not realize that sarcasm was not allowed in Islam...but now that I think about it, I could understand why.
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Abz2000
06-14-2018, 01:17 PM
@umie
I smiled myself - then remembered and paused and took it as a literal no, but then asked just in case lol

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا لَا يَسْخَرْ قَوْمٌ مِّن قَوْمٍ عَسَىٰ أَن يَكُونُوا خَيْرًا مِّنْهُمْ وَلَا نِسَاءٌ مِّن نِّسَاءٍ عَسَىٰ أَن يَكُنَّ خَيْرًا مِّنْهُنَّ وَلَا تَلْمِزُوا أَنفُسَكُمْ وَلَا تَنَابَزُوا بِالْأَلْقَابِ بِئْسَ الِاسْمُ الْفُسُوقُ بَعْدَ الْإِيمَانِ وَمَن لَّمْ يَتُبْ فَأُولَٰئِكَ هُمُ الظَّالِمُونَ

Literal
(Word by Word)
O you who believe! (Let) not ridicule a people [of] (another) people, perhaps that they maybe better than them; and (let) not women [of] (other) women perhaps that they maybe better than them. And (do) not insult yourselves and (do) not call each other by nicknames. Wretched is the name (of) disobedience after the faith. And whoever (does) not repent, then those - they (are) the wrongdoers.

The different interpretations are linked here - (some scholars interpret it "insulting the self" as sarcasm in context).

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/49/11/default.htm


Also:

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا اتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَقُولُوا قَوْلًا سَدِيدًا

Muhammad Asad
O you who have attained to faith! Remain conscious of God, and [always] speak with a will to bring out [only] what is just and true -


M. M. Pickthall
O ye who believe! Guard your duty to Allah, and speak words straight to the point;

Quran 33:70


يُصْلِحْ لَكُمْ أَعْمَالَكُمْ وَيَغْفِرْ لَكُمْ ذُنُوبَكُمْ وَمَن يُطِعِ اللَّهَ وَرَسُولَهُ فَقَدْ فَازَ فَوْزًا عَظِيمًا

Muhammad Asad
[whereupon] He will cause your deeds to be virtuous, and will forgive you your sins. And [know that] whoever pays heed unto God and His Apostle has already attained to a mighty triumph.

M. M. Pickthall
He will adjust your works for you and will forgive you your sins. Whosoever obeyeth Allah and His messenger, he verily hath gained a signal victory.

Quran 33:



Also:

24. Seest thou not how Allah sets forth a parable? - A goodly word like a goodly tree, whose root is firmly fixed, and its branches (reach) to the heavens,- of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
25. It brings forth its fruit at all times, by the leave of its Lord. So Allah sets forth parables for men, in order that they may receive admonition.
26. And the parable of an evil Word is that of an evil tree: It is torn up by the root from the surface of the earth: it has no stability.
27. Allah will establish in strength those who believe, with the word that stands firm, in this world and in the Hereafter; but Allah will leave, to stray, those who do wrong: Allah doeth what He willeth.

From Quran, Chapter 14
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anatolian
06-14-2018, 02:28 PM
Thats the definition of race anyway. Races are the sub branches of species that develope different features with adaptation and mutation. This applies to all life forms as well as humans and another proof for the microevolution. Once upon a time we were one race, the progeny of Adam and Havva. The people who migrated to different parts of the World developed different features because of adaptation and mutation. Northern people developed a lighter skin color compared to the southern ones because of the lack of sun light. Southerners developed a darker skin color to save themselves from the harmful effects of sun exposure. I think this only applies to us humans since we dont have a fure like animals to save our skin from sun light. Sothern Europens have darker skin color than northern Europens, southern africans have darker skin color than northern Africans, and southern Asians also have darker skin color than northern Asians. Blue eye was also a mutation which occured a few thousand years ago in Europe. Before that all human races had only brown eye color.

However it is only our cultural or personal mentalities which forces us to think that our race is somehow superior to other races. Your race might be taller than another race but that race might be stronger than yours. This brother is also in error thinking that all Europens are tall and sturdy which makes him proud of his race the most. However there are short and weak people in Europe too and when it omes to physical features African black people are the most skilled ones . These are all different features Allah bestowed us which we should avoid making it a subject of seperation.
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Abz2000
06-14-2018, 03:05 PM
Recalled Surah 'Abasa after talking about frowning and smiling so i thought it actually might be worth investing some time on the comments, reading the end of Surah Ibrahim tells us that the plots of the criminals are well within Allah's sight - even if they are trying to shake the mountains.




I don't take the Adam story literally. I believe the black clay means carbon, so "Adam" is all organic life which is different from those made from smokeless fire or pure energy. There are many species of particular animals so how can there be only "one species" of people? Impossible! Especially since they look so amazingly different to each other! I believe that the "one human species" propaganda is just political to make people united under a totalitarian world order
If you have children or siblings you'll know that each child is slightly genetically variant from another, and the human race refererred to as "Naas" by Allah, and to whom He sent universal guidance and admonishments is the closest knit in terms of blood relation to all biological organisms.

As for the belief that all humans come from Adam and Eve, who is to say then that there weren't MULTIPLE Adams and Eves -- Adams and Eves for every respective race?
Again, the above explanation is sufficient to inform us that human beings (homo sapiens) have a common ancestor.


As for the Adam and Eve story, that is more a metaphorical rather than literal. The Quran is actually packed with many metaphorical statements. The reason why the Adam and Eve story is not literal is because a) if there were only two people originally on Earth, they would have probably been killed by a predator or some accident or some disease or some other thing,
It is by Allah's grace in bestowing Adam (the father of mankind) with higher intelligence and decency that He made surviving through the wild selfish and ravenous times easier than for more vicious and primitive creatures who were likely unaware of God's direct guidance, and of good judgement, even if they were his family -since God had informed them that He would send them guidance somewhere down the line. (Also wonder how your sperm survived and through mind boggling odds - then passed the hazardous early fetal stages through mind boggling odds - but this is probably more like neo getting a direct call at work - but being saved from the unjust due to hearing and obeying the true guidance).


قُلْنَا اهْبِطُوا مِنْهَا جَمِيعًا فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّي هُدًى فَمَن تَبِعَ هُدَايَ فَلَا خَوْفٌ عَلَيْهِمْ وَلَا هُمْ يَحْزَنُونَ

Literal word by word:
We said, "Go down from it all (of you), and when, comes to you from Me Guidance, then whoever follows My Guidance, [then] no fear (will be) on them and not they will grieve.

M. M. Pickthall
We said: Go down, all of you, from hence; but verily there cometh unto you from Me a guidance; and whoso followeth My guidance, there shall no fear come upon them neither shall they grieve.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
We said: "Get ye down all from here; and if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from me, whosoever follows My guidance, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.

Quran 2:38



قَالَ اهْبِطَا مِنْهَا جَمِيعًا بَعْضُكُمْ لِبَعْضٍ عَدُوٌّ فَإِمَّا يَأْتِيَنَّكُم مِّنِّي هُدًى فَمَنِ اتَّبَعَ هُدَايَ فَلَا يَضِلُّ وَلَا يَشْقَىٰ

M. M. Pickthall
He said: Go down hence, both of you, one of you a foe unto the other. But when there come unto you from Me a guidance, then whoso followeth My guidance, he will not go astray nor come to grief.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
He said: "Get ye down, both of you,- all together, from the Garden, with enmity one to another: but if, as is sure, there comes to you Guidance from Me, whosoever follows My Guidance, will not lose his way, nor fall into misery.

Quran 20:123



b) all humans would look the same, they would look like members of one big family. They would share a physical RESEMBLANCE, but they DON'T. The different races of humans look VERY different! -- some much more different than others.
again, your siblings, children, father, and mother look at least slightly different from you, and even twins look more and more different depending on experiences and intake of minerals - but they still are and look human - even facebook's bots can identify this fact.

And c) If Islamic law is perfect then why would it prohibit incest? If every human hypothetically WERE of two original breeding partners then ALL human breeding would be an act of incest and inbreeding that would have been going on for thousands or even millions of years! Right? So this is why the Adam and Eve story is a metaphorical story. It can NOT be literal as it would simply defy all scientific logic!
Actions that were lawful or unlawful before the revelation of the final scripture -the Quran - are not the same after it's revelation.
And even the laws in the Quran were settled according to circumstances over the period of 23 years, just as different Prophets came and made slight adjustments in allowance of Torah laws.


Muhammad Asad
ALL FOOD was lawful unto the children of Israel, save what Israel had made unlawful unto itself [by its sinning] before the Torah was bestowed from on high. Say: "Come forward, then, with the Torah and recite it, if what you say is true!"

M. M. Pickthall
All food was lawful unto the Children of Israel, save that which Israel forbade himself, (in days) before the Torah was revealed. Say: Produce the Torah and read it (unto us) if ye are truthful.
Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

Quran 3:93


(And had power to give life unto the image of the beast lol)

وَرَسُولًا إِلَىٰ بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَنِّي قَدْ جِئْتُكُم بِآيَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ أَنِّي أَخْلُقُ لَكُم مِّنَ الطِّينِ كَهَيْئَةِ الطَّيْرِ فَأَنفُخُ فِيهِ فَيَكُونُ طَيْرًا بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُبْرِئُ الْأَكْمَهَ وَالْأَبْرَصَ وَأُحْيِي الْمَوْتَىٰ بِإِذْنِ اللَّهِ وَأُنَبِّئُكُم بِمَا تَأْكُلُونَ وَمَا تَدَّخِرُونَ فِي بُيُوتِكُمْ إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً لَّكُمْ إِن كُنتُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ

M.M.Picktall:
And will make him a messenger unto the Children of Israel, (saying): Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for you out of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird, by Allah's leave. I heal him who was born blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, by Allah's leave. And I announce unto you what ye eat and what ye store up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you, if ye are to be believers.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
"And (appoint him) a messenger to the Children of Israel, (with this message): "'I have come to you, with a Sign from your Lord, in that I make for you out of clay, as it were, the figure of a bird, and breathe into it, and it becomes a bird by Allah's leave: And I heal those born blind, and the lepers, and I quicken the dead, by Allah's leave; and I declare to you what ye eat, and what ye store in your houses. Surely therein is a Sign for you if ye did believe;

Quran 3:49




وَمُصَدِّقًا لِّمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيَّ مِنَ التَّوْرَاةِ وَلِأُحِلَّ لَكُم بَعْضَ الَّذِي حُرِّمَ عَلَيْكُمْ وَجِئْتُكُم بِآيَةٍ مِّن رَّبِّكُمْ فَاتَّقُوا اللَّهَ وَأَطِيعُونِ

Muhammad Asad
"And [I have come] to confirm the truth of whatever there still remains of the Torah, and to make lawful unto you some of the things which [aforetime] were forbidden to you. And I have come unto you with a message from your Sustainer; remain, then, conscious of God, and pay heed unto me.

M. M. Pickthall
And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to make lawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a sign from your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me.

Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)
"'(I have come to you), to attest the Law which was before me. And to make lawful to you part of what was (Before) forbidden to you; I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear Allah, and obey me.

Quran 3:50


So it's easy to come to the logical conclusion that the laws of incest wouldn't have existed at the time - and such a union would have been the innocent and natural course - the latter laws of incest also shows the wisdom in genetic diversity amongst humans as proven by scientific research.


Will post on the second part later inshaAllah.
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Alamgir
06-14-2018, 05:04 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zzz_
Interestingly enough there are native people in north north of pakistan that are very white looking, speak very ancient and unique language and are also still pagan.
Asalamu Alaikum

White skin isn't at all uncommon in Afghanistan, Pakistan or even north-west Hindustan. For example, I'm Pakistani but my mother is white.

The region has been at the crossroads of many different civilisations, as a result many have migrated to and assimilated into the local culture.

However, some have retained their original culture, like the Kalash or Burusho in Pakistan, or the Arabs in Afghanistan (yes, you get native Arabs in Afghanistan).
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Zzz_
06-14-2018, 05:37 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
Asalamu Alaikum

White skin isn't at all uncommon in Afghanistan, Pakistan or even north-west Hindustan. For example, I'm Pakistani but my mother is white.

The region has been at the crossroads of many different civilisations, as a result many have migrated to and assimilated into the local culture.

However, some have retained their original culture, like the Kalash or Burusho in Pakistan, or the Arabs in Afghanistan (yes, you get native Arabs in Afghanistan).
wa'alaikum as'salaam,

Yes, i'm aware of that. The Indus river (pakistan) of india was been conquered by many empires over the centuries and thus lead to a melting pot of many ethnicity and tribes as well as individual tribes cohabiting.

Whole of the indian subcontinent people should be referred to hindus and the "subcontinent" referred to as hindustan much like you have europeans and europe. But the modern day hindus hijacked that regional historical name and attributed it to their religion and modern day india and ruined it.

According to historians, the origin of Hinduism dates back to 5000 or more years. The word "Hindu" is derived from the name of river Indus, which flows through northern India. In ancient times the river was called the 'Sindhu', but the Persians who migrated to India called the river 'Hindu', the land 'Hindustan' and its inhabitants 'Hindus'.
Reply

Abz2000
06-14-2018, 06:28 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zzz_
wa'alaikum as'salaam,

Yes, i'm aware of that. The Indus river (pakistan) of india was been conquered by many empires over the centuries and thus lead to a melting pot of many ethnicity and tribes as well as individual tribes cohabiting.

Whole of the indian subcontinent people should be referred to hindus and the "subcontinent" referred to as hindustan much like you have europeans and europe. But the modern day hindus hijacked that regional historical name and attributed it to their religion and modern day india and ruined it.

According to historians, the origin of Hinduism dates back to 5000 or more years. The word "Hindu" is derived from the name of river Indus, which flows through northern India. In ancient times the river was called the 'Sindhu', but the Persians who migrated to India called the river 'Hindu', the land 'Hindustan' and its inhabitants 'Hindus'.
Wikipedia states that Scholars regard Hinduism as a fusion[note 3] or synthesis[6][note 4] of various Indian cultures and traditions,[7][note 5] with diverse roots[8][note 6] and no founder.[9] This "Hindu synthesis" started to develop between 500 BCE and 300 CE,[10] following the Vedic period (1500 BCE to 500 BCE).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hinduism

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Doesn't the dating appear to have a relationship with Moses and the Samiri who the Quran tells us set up cow reverence and was cursed to be untouchable and then banished?

-------
Scholarly consensus sees Moses as a legendary figure and not a historical person.[8] Rabbinic Judaism calculated a lifespan of Moses corresponding to 1391–1271 BCE;[9] Jerome gives 1592 BCE,[10] and James Ussher 1571 BCE as his birth year.[11][Note 2] In the Book of Deuteronomy, Moses was mentioned as "the man of God."[14]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moses


--------


Musa said to As-Samiri, "What caused you to do what you did What presented such an idea to you causing you to do this'' Muhammad bin Ishaq reported from Ibn `Abbas that he said, "As-Samiri was a man from the people of Bajarma, a people who worshipped cows. He still had the love of cow worshipping in his soul. However, he acted as though he had accepted Islam with the Children of Israel. His name was Musa bin Zafar.'' Qatadah said, "He was from the village of Samarra.''
﴿قَالَ بَصُرْتُ بِمَا لَمْ يَبْصُرُواْ بِهِ﴾
((Samiri) said: "I saw what they saw not.'') This means, "I saw Jibril when he came to destroy Fir`awn.''
﴿فَقَبَضْتُ قَبْضَةً مِّنْ أَثَرِ الرَّسُولِ﴾
(so I took a handful (Qabdah) from the print of the messenger) This means from the hoof print of his (Jibril's) horse. This is what is well-known with many of the scholars of Tafsir, rather most of them. Mujahid said,
﴿فَقَبَضْتُ قَبْضَةً مِّنْ أَثَرِ الرَّسُولِ﴾
(so I took a handful (Qabdah) from the print of the messenger) "From under the hoof of Jibril's horse.'' He also said, "The word Qabdah means a palmful, and it is also that which is grasped by the tips of the fingers.'' Mujahid said, "As-Samiri threw what was in his hand onto the jewelry of the Children of Israel and it became molded into the body of a calf, which made a light moaning sound. The wind that blew into it was the cause of its sound.'' Thus, he said,
﴿فَنَبَذْتُهَا﴾
(and I threw it.) This means, "I threw it along with those who were throwing (jewelry).''
﴿وَكَذلِكَ سَوَّلَتْ لِى نَفْسِى﴾
(Thus my inner self suggested to me.) This means that his soul considered it something good and it was pleasing to his self.
﴿قَالَ فَاذْهَبْ فَإِنَّ لَكَ فِى الْحَيَوةِ أَن تَقُولَ لاَ مِسَاسَ﴾
((Musa) said: "Then go away! And verily, your (punishment) in this life will be that you will say: `Touch me not.''') This means, "Just as you took and touched what was not your right to take and touch of the messenger's foot print, such is your punishment in this life, that you will say, `Do not touch (me).''' This means, "You will not touch the people and they will not touch you.''
﴿وَإِنَّ لَكَ مَوْعِداً﴾
(and verily, you have a promise) This means on the Day of Resurrection.
﴿لَّن تُخْلَفَهُ﴾
(that will not fail.) you will have no way to escape it. Qatadah said,
﴿أَن تَقُولَ لاَ مِسَاسَ﴾
(that you will say: `Touch me not.') "This is referring to a punishment for them and their remnants (i.e. those who have their disease) today still say `Do not touch.''' Concerning Allah's statement,

﴿وَإِنَّ لَكَ مَوْعِداً لَّن تُخْلَفَهُ﴾
(and verily, you have a promise that will not fail.) Al-Hasan, Qatadah and Abu Nahik said, "You will not be absent from it.''
﴿وَانظُرْ إِلَى إِلَـهِكَ﴾
(And look at your god) that which you worshipped,
﴿الَّذِى ظَلْتَ عَلَيْهِ عَاكِفاً﴾
(to which you have been devoted.) that which you established worship of, which was the calf.
﴿إِنَّمَآ إِلَـهُكُمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِى لا إِلَـهَ إِلاَّ هُوَ وَسِعَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ عِلْماً ﴾
(Your God is only Allah, there is no God but Him. He has full knowledge of all things.) Musa was saying to them, "This is not your god. Your God is only Allah, the One Whom there is no true God except Him. Worship is not befitting to anyone except Him. For everything is in need of Him and everything is His servant. Concerning the statement,
﴿وَسِعَ كُلَّ شَىْءٍ عِلْماً﴾
(He has full knowledge of all things.) The word `Ilm (knowledge) is in the accusative case for distinction. It means that He is the All-Knower of everything.

﴿أَحَاطَ بِكُلِّ شَىْءٍ عِلْمَا﴾
((Allah) surrounds all things in (His) knowledge. ) ﴿65:12﴾ And He says,
﴿وَأَحْصَى كُلَّ شَىْءٍ عَدَداً﴾
(And (He) keeps count of all things.) ﴿72:28﴾ Therefore,
﴿لاَ يَعْزُبُ عَنْهُ مِثْقَالُ ذَرَّةٍ﴾
(Not even the weight of a speck of dust escapes His knowledge.) ﴿34:3﴾ He also says,
﴿وَمَا تَسْقُطُ مِن وَرَقَةٍ إِلاَّحَبَّةٍ فِى ظُلُمَـتِ الاٌّرْضِ وَلاَ رَطْبٍ وَلاَ يَابِسٍ إِلاَّ فِى كِتَـبٍ مُّبِينٍ﴾
(Not a leaf falls, but He knows it. There is not a grain in the darkness of the earth nor anything fresh or dry, but is written in a Clear Record.) ﴿6:59﴾ And He says,
﴿وَمَا مِن دَآبَّةٍ فِي الاٌّرْضِ إِلاَّ عَلَى اللَّهِ رِزْقُهَا وَيَعْلَمُ مُسْتَقَرَّهَا وَمُسْتَوْدَعَهَا كُلٌّ فِى كِتَابٍ مُّبِينٍ ﴾
(And no moving creature is there on earth but its provision is due from Allah. And He knows its dwelling place and its deposit. All is in a Clear Book.) ﴿11:6﴾ The Ayat that mention this are numerous.
﴿كَذلِكَ نَقُصُّ عَلَيْكَ مِنْ أَنْبَآءِ مَا قَدْ سَبَقَ وَقَدْ آتَيْنَـكَ مِن لَّدُنَّا ذِكْراً - مَّنْ أَعْرَضَ عَنْهُ فَإِنَّهُ يَحْمِلُ يَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ وِزْراً - خَـلِدِينَ فِيهِ وَسَآءَ لَهُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَـمَةِ حِمْلاً ﴾
(99. Thus We relate to you some information of what happened before. And indeed We have given you from Us a Reminder.) (100. Whoever turns away from it, verily, they will bear a heavy burden on the Day of Resurrection.) (101. They will abide in that -- and evil indeed will it be that load for them on the Day of Resurrection.)

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?opt...sk=view&id=905


Untouchability
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Untouchability
Reply

Alamgir
06-14-2018, 06:53 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Zzz_
Whole of the indian subcontinent people should be referred to hindus and the "subcontinent" referred to as hindustan much like you have europeans and europe. But the modern day hindus hijacked that regional historical name and attributed it to their religion and modern day india and ruined it.
I don't want to be associated with that word ever again, not since they've touched it.

We should just stick with the words Khorasan and Pakistan.
Reply

Zzz_
06-14-2018, 07:10 PM
format_quote Originally Posted by Al Khorasani
I don't want to be associated with that word ever again, not since they've touched it.

We should just stick with the words Khorasan and Pakistan.
I agree. Which is why i used the world desi to refer to the subcontinent people rather then some long name others came up with. Funny thing though is that pakistanis refer to brown people as desi whereas indians refer to desi as only indians (since they from the same dase).
Reply

Alamgir
06-14-2018, 07:58 PM
Since we're on the topic of ancestry and the sub-continent, I thought it would be a good idea to disprove the stupid notion that Muslims in Pakistan and Hindustan are not descended from the Muslims who were conquering Hindustan for a thousand years.


First up, here's a genetic map of Pakistan showing that Pakistanis have significantly higher amounts of Eurasian ancestry than Hindustan, with a significant amount of this Eurasian component almost certainly coming from the Islamic conquerors (hence why most Hindustanis lack such a large component of Eurasian ancestry and the pagan Kalash have a slightly smaller amount of Eurasian ancestry):



Here is a genetic study for Hindustani Muslims that detected Iranian genes present in all Muslims sampled but not a single Hindu:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20067368

"we observed a certain degree of genetic contribution from Iran to both Muslim populations"

Another few genetic tests proving Hindustani Muslims have ancestry from these Islamic conquerors:

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19809480

"Overall, our results support a model according to which the spread of Islam in India was predominantly cultural conversion associated with minor but still detectable levels of gene flow from outside, primarily from Iran and Central Asia"

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3163234

"The study showed that the Muslim Gujjars differ significantly from their counterpart, the Hindu Gujjars"

Many of these Muslim rulers were also native to the region, such as (but not limited to):

Hyder Ali and Tipu Sultan (Sultans of southern Hindustan who were descended from Punjabi migrants, they most notably defeated the Marathas)

https://www.britannica.com/biography/Hyder-Ali
https://www.britannica.com/biography/Tippu-Sultan
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com...w/61574823.cms

Sikander Shah Mir (a Kashmiri Gujjar Sultan who earned the title of iconoclast for destroying almost every idol he saw in Kashmir)

http://lostkashmirihistory.com/sultan-sikandar-man-myth/

Ahmed Shah Durrani (the last major Muslim conqueror in history, he was a Pashtun from Multan)

http://pakteahouse.net/2009/11/25/ahmad-shah-durrani-a-king-of-high-rank/

Mir Chakar Rind (a Baluchi Sultan who sacked Delhi)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mir_Chakar_Rind

Shahbaz Khan (a Punjabi who was one of the Mughal Empire's premiere generals, conquering large portions of Hindustan)

http://military.wikia.com/wiki/Shahbaz_Khan_Kamboh

Aurangzeb Alamgir (the Mughal Empire's greatest Sultan who ruled over almost all of Afghanistan, Pakistan, Hindustan and Bangladesh, he was from Hindustani Gujarat)

http://historypak.com/aurangzeb-alamgir/

Shah Jahan (another great Mughal Sultan, he was from Lahore)

http://historypak.com/shah-jehan/

Jam Nizamuddin (a Sindhi Sultan who's rule established the Golden Age of Sindh)

https://www.sindhidunya.com/the-sult...nizamuddin-ii/

All of the Muslim empires that ruled over the region also hired large numbers of locals into their military. For example, Babur had received significant support from Muslims in Jhelum, Muhammad Bin Qasim had an army that swelled with Sindhis, Baluchis and Gujjars, up to 1/3 of Mahmud Ghaznavi's army was made up of Punjabis and Sindhis, Allauddin Khiliji relied on Punjabi, Sindhi and Kashmiri soldiers on his frontier provinces to defend the Delhi Sultanate from the Mongol Empire, etc.

https://firdosh101.blogspot.com/2009...f-gakhars.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhamm...m#The_campaign
http://www.barmazid.com/2016/11/ghaz...of-hindus.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mongol_invasions_of_India

The lingua franca of Muslims in Pakistan/Hindustan is also Urdu, which is written in a Perso-Arabic script and has many loanwords from Arabic and Farsi (29.9% Arabic loanwords and 21.7% Farsi loanwords):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urdu#Vocabulary
http://pu.edu.pk/images/journal/stud...al-4_v16_1.pdf

Reply

Abz2000
06-14-2018, 10:10 PM
We see a similar trend in Sylheti in contrast to the Bengali language which was imported later from Calcutta - in that Sylheti (or sylhoti) emerged as a mix of local indian, Farsi, and Arabic languages - this may be due to the fact that Muslim scholars imported themselves and Islamic books from the nearest sources, and Arabic goes without saying.

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Sylheti Nagari (Sylheti: ꠍꠤꠟꠐꠤ ꠘꠣꠉꠞꠤ Silôṭi Nagri) is an endangered script used for writing Sylheti. It is closely related to Kaithi, and has some Eastern Nagari influences. Although it has in recent times lost much ground to Bengali, the script is beginning to be reintroduced.[1]

The script has also been known as Jalalabad Nagari, Fūl (flower) Nagari,[2] Muslim Nagari, Muhammad Nagari. All of its names are suffixed with Nagari, which implies the script's connection to the Nāgarī script.

The specific origin of Sylheti Nagari is debated. The general hypothesis is the Muslims of Sylhet were the ones to invent it. Suniti Kumar Chatterji, however, is of the opinion that Shah Jalal brought the script with him when he arrived in the area in the thirteenth or fourteenth century. (((Foolish Propaganda - it's a mix))) The bulk of text written in Sylheti Nagari being influenced by Sufism seems to support this hypothesis.
On the other hand, according to Ahmad Hasan Dani it was the Afghans living in Sylhet during the Afghan rule who invented the script, since some of Sylheti Nagari's letters resemble the symbols on Afghan coins, and there were a large number of Afghans living in Sylhet at that time. Other less-supported hypotheses are:[3]

Since the people of Sylhet were familiar with the Devanagari script, they fashioned Sylheti Nagari after it;
The script was invented by immigrant Bhikkhus from neighboring countries such as Nepal;
The script could have been invented in the seventeenth—eighteenth century to facilitate the Muslim sepoys coming from the joint state of Bihar and immigrant Muslims;[4]
A folk belief is that a Muslim invented the script from Bengali writing system for the purpose of mass education[5]
But scholars now validate the three hypotheses: By the followers of Shah Jalal, by Afghans or that the script is indigenous to Sylhet.[3]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylheti_Nagari


During the British colonial period, a Sylheti student by the name of Munshi Abdul Karim studying in London, England, after completing his education, spent several years in London and learned the printing trade. After returning home, he designed a woodblock type for Sylheti Nagari and founded the Islamia Press in Sylhet Town in about 1870. Other Sylheti presses were established in Sunamganj, Shillong and Kolkata. These presses fell out of use during the early 1970s.[11][12] Since then, the Sylotinagri alphabet has been used mainly by linguists and academics.[13] It gradually became very unpopular.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sylheti_language


Not that it matters too much since the whole world is shifting to Arabic and English.
Still, it's nice to know that Muslims everywhere give high value to Islam and that their languages naturally evolve in order to accomodate the language of the Quran and other languages which are rich in Islamic literature.
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