A Fundamental Problem with Abrahamic Religions. How can we resolve this?

[DanRaleigh]

This is a question about the Quran/Islam. I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions (including Christianity/Judaism) as in general. To help you understand this problem, let me explain the issue first:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God; he is a prophet sent by Allah who is the God. Since prophet Muhammad has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to a Christian leader to clarify this matter (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leader? Will that leader tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? Obviously, you would know that the reply would never be a positive one. Regardless of the reply, assume further that prophet Muhammad ends up in contacting so many Christian leaders as well to get a better understanding of this controversy. What will their reaction would be?

So now let me show you the issue here:

Based on the recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad (Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believed that Jesus is the God's son and he is not a prophet). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they knew this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet sent by Allah? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God (Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or will they say that someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was not lying? Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Therefore, because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders. One of these assumptions has to be true.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan and they were deceived Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says: Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds' Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.' Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.' Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)

Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary...esus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders were believing is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders (till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years (had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst since now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs. Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

[M.I.A.]

There is a problem with your argument, you say abrahamic religions but have failed to state a case against the Jewish belief with regards to jesus christ pbuh.

So maybe a bit more on your part.
The quran also takes issue with the subject of the trinity as Christians would state it and yet is mindful of the Holy spirit and its recognition.

Lots of other quranic quotes that you could mention.

But in the end its not a matter of the facts but rather a matter of interpreting the facts which leads to so many different understandings.

If religion was like science, and the world only worked one way..

Then maybe things would have been easier to understand.. If not live with.

[Yunussalaf]

"Assume that on the first day..."

Firstly, we do not "assume" in Islam because we know with certainty of faith that Muhammed (salla Allahu alayhi wa selem) received revelation. And the proof is for everyone to study: The Glorious Qur'an which no-one has been able to contradict except with utter failure. Likewise the arguments and imaginative scenarios put forth in this question is dealt with in the Qur'an many times. I suggest one reads the verses of the Qur'an and ahadith pertaining to the issue.

This article also deals with a similar question:

https://www.---------------------/Re...adi_s10_94.htm

[Zafran]

You are missing out the Jews who did not believe Jesus pbuh was God, incarnation, trinity etc - also Christians were a diverse group, even today Christians are diverse and have many disagreements on the explanation of the trinity or how the incarnation works. Muslims don't regard Christians "leaders" as authority - the Quran itself which is the revelation from God makes good arguments against the Idea of incarnation and Jewish theology supports this.

You are also exaggerating that Muslim and Christians kill each other because of theology, politics had more to do with it, not theology.

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[Scimitar]

Do you even history? Pfft

[Flos]

This is a question about the Quran/Islam. I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions (including Christianity/Judaism) as in general. To help you understand this problem, let me explain the issue first:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God; he is a prophet sent by Allah who is the God. Since prophet Muhammad has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to a Christian leader to clarify this matter (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leader? Will that leader tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? Obviously, you would know that the reply would never be a positive one. Regardless of the reply, assume further that prophet Muhammad ends up in contacting so many Christian leaders as well to get a better understanding of this controversy. What will their reaction would be?

So now let me show you the issue here:

Based on the recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad (Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believed that Jesus is the God's son and he is not a prophet). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they knew this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet sent by Allah? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God (Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or will they say that someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was not lying? Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Therefore, because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders. One of these assumptions has to be true.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan and they were deceived Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says: Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds' Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.' Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.' Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)

Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary...esus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders were believing is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders (till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years (had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst since now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs. Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

Looks like you have never tried to do any research. Right?

Before I start, may I ask you - why you keep saying "Christian leaders" - as if Christian believers don't have their own mind and freedom of thinking or whatever?

Do you, at all, know what Allah as a word means? It's a bit confusing your complaints over Jesus not being son of God.

Do you even know how the first revelation came to Muhammad saws? What was the first word, sentence, how, where, what? What happened before that?

Him going to his uncle, who was Christian was the most logical thing to do. Telling him that someone spoke to him, describing him, his uncle recognized angel Gabriel. What's unclear here? The uncle informed him about Moses and other prophets having same experiences... At the same time, Muhammad saws was well known in his nation as truthful, the most honest person living there, person of trust, etc...

I'm serious, start doing serious research before asking bunch of silly questions... I don't think it's smart to have any discussion with you regarding all of this before you do.

However, believing that a human being, a simple human being that sleeps, eats, goes to toilet is a god - that's silly. Torturing, killing and burdening God himself with people's sins - that's not just silly, it's super nonsense.

As for the conflicts and Christians not knowing that Jesus wasn't son of Allah is just simple Christians' fault. Jesus NEVER said he was son of God. Many Christian "sects" by the time prophet Muhammed saws believed he was just a prophet, not all sects went astray. On the other hand, we all know very well that this silliness about Jesus being divine comes from Greek and Roman mythology. Primitive pagans believed in human-like multiple gods and of course to their "logic" a man with some supernatural powers is just like Zeus, Dionis, etc.

Who is silly now?

[Ümit]

This is a question about the Quran/Islam. I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions (including Christianity/Judaism) as in general. To help you understand this problem, let me explain the issue first:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God; he is a prophet sent by Allah who is the God. Since prophet Muhammad has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to a Christian leader to clarify this matter (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leader? Will that leader tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? Obviously, you would know that the reply would never be a positive one. Regardless of the reply, assume further that prophet Muhammad ends up in contacting so many Christian leaders as well to get a better understanding of this controversy. What will their reaction would be?

So now let me show you the issue here:

Based on the recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad (Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believed that Jesus is the God's son and he is not a prophet). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they knew this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet sent by Allah? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God (Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or will they say that someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was not lying? Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Therefore, because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders. One of these assumptions has to be true.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan and they were deceived Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says: Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds' Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.' Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.' Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)

Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary...esus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders were believing is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders (till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years (had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst since now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs. Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

İt is crystal clear that your understanding of the whole matter is below zero.
You do not know what you are talking about.
Please read more about Mohammad sas's life and hopefully you'll understand why this question is just silly.

[SoldierAmatUllah]

Don't ask questions in ignoble mannerism about our Religion Islam.Many won't respond

[DanRaleigh]

Please ignore the repeated text in my reply. Seems like the forum does not have an option to edit text after posting.

[AabiruSabeel]

Your posts are blasphemous and we do not allow such posts here. I am just quoting some of the commonly misunderstood parts from your post.

So you might even wonder why Jewish people rejected Jesus. Well, if Jesus tells Jewish people/leaders an entirely different set of beliefs and practices than what they were practicing when Jesus was on Earth, then the outcome would be rejection. Jewish people would never respect Jesus, while people like Joseph Caiaphas rejecting Jesus. ...

Therefore, people would think Jesus is crazy or a false prophet/a trouble maker (which is what happened).

It is a misconception that Jesus ('Isa :as:) or any other prophet taught an entirely different set of beliefs and practices as compared to his previous prophets. That is simply not true. All the prophets were sent with the same Message, to believe in the One and Only God, Allah. The Message has been the same since the first man on earth, Adam :as: until the last and final messenger, Muhammad :saws:.

Allah :swt: says,

And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that, "There is no deity except Me, so worship Me." [Al-Anbiya: 25]

The Jews and the Christians had the same message. They did not preserve the original message and corrupted it with their false beliefs. 'Isa :as: never proclaimed to be the son of God. If you study the original scriptures, you will still find similarities in all of them.

So let's be clear with this, it is the people who created the mess and deviated from the right path. Allah :swt: sent prophets and messengers to guide them back to the right path once again.

[DanRaleigh]

Thanks all for your replies. I have responded to all your questions. It would have been great to see my entire post is being accepted. What I have mentioned in my posts are normal responses that you can expect to hear from people. If I have addressed the issues in another way, perhaps, I could have avoided the misunderstandings. Anyway, I don't see the below point explains the controversy logically.

It is a misconception that Jesus ('Isa :as:) or any other prophet taught an entirely different set of beliefs and practices as compared to his previous prophets. That is simply not true. All the prophets were sent with the same Message, to believe in the One and Only God, Allah. The Message has been the same since the first man on earth, Adam :as: until the last and final messenger, Muhammad :saws:.

Let me try to explain to you why. Let's say that Islamic religious practices and beliefs were taught to us 3000+ years ago. But we know that before Jesus became a prophet, this teaching ended up creating Judaism on Earth, and we also know that the followers of Judaism had unique beliefs and practices under their religion (Judaism). In other words, God's actions ended up creating Judaism, and Judaism can no longer be identified as Islamic religious beliefs and practices when Jesus was on Earth.

Under these circumstances, if God appointed Jesus as a prophet to preach Islamic beliefs and practices once again, you would know that Jesus would be rejected by Jewish people. In other words, this explanation helps us to understand the mystery behind why Jewish people rejected Jesus (people no longer believed in practices and beliefs that can be identified as Islamic beliefs and practices, so they rejected Jesus).

(Just imagine the situation where you preach Islamic beliefs and practices to Jewish people today. Will they accept or reject?)

Since God knows that his actions ended up creating Judaism on Earth, if God who spoke to Jewish people started communicating to them once again to correct these false beliefs and practices, Jesus/God will have to take meaningful actions and engage in meaningful/logical discussions with Jewish people/leaders. Can we find those meaningful/logical actions and discussions?


(If you preach Islamic religious beliefs and practices to Jewish people today, they will reject you. So, you will have to figure out the steps that are required to correct their false beliefs. This is an extremely difficult task. You will have to give clear explanations in such a way where they can understand and convince themselves that their beliefs and practices are wrong. Even if you claim that God speaks to you and you take the Quran as proof, you cannot change their minds. God will have to intervene and show them that God is behind you and God is making this correction and it's not done by a person who claims that he communicates with God. This is why I see that meaningful/logical actions and discussions are required. Can we find this in the story of Jesus?

However, if God is indeed behind you, God will easily figure out the steps required to correct false beliefs of human beings. And if God was behind Jesus, we could expect to see the beliefs of Jewish people and leaders changing immediately. At least for a short. Can we see this happening till the word gets corrupted again?)

If we can't find it, how can we come to the conclusion that God who spoke to Jewish people once again appointed a prophet to correct these false beliefs and practices (or re-establish the true word of God)? Or is it that you explain this mystery by claiming God abandon all the Jewish leaders when Jesus was on Earth?


(If God exists, we could expect to see God respecting religious leaders since they represent God to us and since they spread the word of God by dedicating their lives. When Jesus was on Earth, Joseph Caiaphas was the high priest of Jerusalem. He was like God's representative to Jewish people. So, to correct these false beliefs, God will have to find a way to communicate with him and make him also understand what to preach and why the preaching of Jesus has the true word of God. If Joseph Caiaphas were a corrupted religious leader, God will explain Jewish people why they must reject Joseph Caiaphas. This is because for people to change their minds, they are looking for a convincing explanation. Can we see any of these events taking place?)


(At the end of the day, the events associated with the life of Jesus tell us that God has never taken any meaningful/logical actions or engaged in meaningful discussions to correct or merge different religious beliefs. This is what I see)


Then in the 7th century, we can see God working with prophet Muhammad for 22 years to establish Islamic religious beliefs and practices once again. But even though God worked with prophet Muhammad for 22 years, we still cannot see God taking any meaningful/logical actions and we cannot see God/prophet Muhammad engaged in meaningful/logical discussions to correct the false religious beliefs and practices of Jewish people, neither Christians—although God's actions ended up in creating these two religions. After creating three religions on Earth, we see God and angels going silent. I mean, even if you want to know the truth, you cannot contact God or angels at all. You have to rely on weak explanations given by people and books that are controversial.

(Imagine the situation when Jewish/Christian leaders and people hear people saying that God who communicated to them is now communicating with prophet Muhammad, however, God is saying that the earlier word is currupted. Christian and Jewish people would be baffled to hear the story, since God is not updating their leaders/people in any meaningful/logical way)

To help you understand the issue that I see here clearly, let me ask questions this way. Do you believe that sending revelations to Prophet Muhammad or to any prophet will help us to correct these false beliefs or will that be enough for Jewish and Christian people to know that their beliefs and practices are false? Will that help us to unite or merge these different religious beliefs? Do you think that meaningful discussions and logical actions are not required?

If required, can we find those meaningful/logical actions taken by God and the discussions God had to correct these false beliefs and practices over the period of 22 years when he was working with prophet Muhammad in the 7th century, so we can come to the conclusion that God indeed was making meaningful/logical efforts and had meaningful/logical discussions with people in order to merge different religious beliefs and to help us convince ourselves that our beliefs and practices are false (or for Jewish and Christian people to convince themselves that their religions belief and practices are false when the Quran was revealed to prophet Muhammad)?


If not, I'm I missing something here?

[Ümit]

Thanks all for your replies. I have responded to all your questions. It would have been great to see my entire post is being accepted. What I have mentioned in my posts are normal responses that you can expect to hear from people. If I have addressed the issues in another way, perhaps, I could have avoided the misunderstandings. Anyway, I don't see the below point explains the controversy logically.



Let me try to explain to you why. Let's say that Islamic religious practices and beliefs were taught to us 3000+ years ago. But we know that before Jesus became a prophet, this teaching ended up creating Judaism on Earth, and we also know that the followers of Judaism had unique beliefs and practices under their religion (Judaism). In other words, God's actions ended up creating Judaism, and Judaism can no longer be identified as Islamic religious beliefs and practices when Jesus was on Earth.

Under these circumstances, if God appointed Jesus as a prophet to preach Islamic beliefs and practices once again, you would know that Jesus would be rejected by Jewish people. In other words, this explanation helps us to understand the mystery behind why Jewish people rejected Jesus (people no longer believed in practices and beliefs that can be identified as Islamic beliefs and practices, so they rejected Jesus).

(Just imagine the situation where you preach Islamic beliefs and practices to Jewish people today. Will they accept or reject?)

Since God knows that his actions ended up creating Judaism on Earth, if God who spoke to Jewish people started communicating to them once again to correct these false beliefs and practices, Jesus/God will have to take meaningful actions and engage in meaningful/logical discussions with Jewish people/leaders. Can we find those meaningful/logical actions and discussions?

İf you see a man healing the sick...walking on water....make the blind see...would you accept his words or would you reject?
Jesus's as words were backed up with lots of miracles so it was pretty much impossible to ignore. So the logical/meaningful thing for the jews to do was to accept...but they rejected anyways.
What better proof can a prophet provide to prove his words?

[DanRaleigh]

İf you see a man healing the sick...walking on water....make the blind see...would you accept his words or would you reject?
Jesus's as words were backed up with lots of miracles so it was pretty much impossible to ignore. So the logical/meaningful thing for the jews to do was to accept...but they rejected anyways.
What better proof can a prophet provide to prove his words?

I'm not able to edit text since I'm a new member. Let me correct a statement that I made earlier, so you would understand my point of view clearly while answering you:

(Imagine the situation when Jewish/Christian leaders and people hear a follower of Prophet Muhammad say that God who communicated to them has appointed another prophet (prophet Muhammad), and God and prophet Muhammad is saying that the earlier word is corrupted. If so, Christian and Jewish people would be baffled to hear the story, since God is not updating their leaders/people in any meaningful/logical way)

People have been reporting their healing abilities throughout the history. And those people who managed to heal others, were trying to help skeptics understand the existence of the phenomenon ever since, however, skeptics never believed that healing is real. Let me take an example:

"Go to the Traveller office and make inquiry there, of some of these cures. Are not these facts before the world?"

"Mr. 'Miler. I will give you a fact. Captain Knight, of the steamer Lewiston, which runs between your city and Portland, had, some time ago, a passenger upon his boat, who had been sent to this city to have a palsied arm amputated. The captain suggested to this man that he should visit Dr. Greenwood, a healing medium. He did so, and in one hour’s time, that withered, palsied arm, which had become diseased, and which eight learned physicians had declared must be amputated, was made whole by simply laying on of hands, and the man used it, and it was as strong as ever. Dr. Greenwood is at No. 15 Tremont Street; and within a stone's throw of this building are men who can come in and testify that, by simply laying on of his hands, they have got up from sick—beds where they were prostrated. Go to the Traveller office and make inquiry there, of some of these cures. Are not these facts before the world?"

Source: Great Discussion of Modern Spiritualism, Between Prof. J. Stanley Grimes and Leo Miller, Esq p.74

We cannot come to a conclusion of this mystery even today, since no one managed to prove their healing powers in any convincing way in a scientific setting. However, I see that the healing phenomenon is real. Jesus, prophet Muhammad and even mediums (people who believe that they communicate with spirits) healed people. To help human beings to understand the truth, we must understand the psychology of human beings. What make us convince ourselves that this is the truth? The intelligence behind Abrahamic religions failed to address this.

[DanRaleigh]

We have seen supernatural acts even in the 19th century when spiritualism was establishing on Earth. Certainly, these strange events on Earth create massive moments. However, people who question these deeply find more questions than answers. Therefore, we could clearly see a movement that reject all these due to issues that they observe when coming to a conclusion. People simply don't know what to make out of these, since they cannot verify evidence in a convincing way:

"Charles L. Tweedale, an English vicar, has been so impressed with the importance of supernormal revelation, and, through his work among all sorts and conditions of men, so impressed with the conviction that a more intense and vital belief in the reality of life after death is one of the urgent needs of the times, that he has published a book, giving, first of all, the scriptural proofs of resurrection, and adding to these, psychic experiences of his own and of many acquaintances.

A careful study of the Bible, he declares, reveals a record of almost continuous supernormal experiences, and these experiences he has taken pains to classify under their proper heads, as : clairvoyance, levitation, strange sounds and supernormal lights, appearances of spirit hands and the touch of discarnate beings, automatic writing, sounds of music and other manifestations. All are very similar to the psychical experiences of today. I would like to add, a little more in detail, a few of the New Testament examples that are very indicative of the good that came to the early disciples through spiritual guidance."

Source: Spirit world and spirit life : descriptions received through automatic writing by Charlotte Dresser - (p. 207)

[Ümit]

I'm not able to edit text since I'm a new member. Let me correct a statement that I made earlier, so you would understand my point of view clearly while answering you:

(Imagine the situation when Jewish/Christian leaders and people hear a follower of Prophet Muhammad say that God who communicated to them has appointed another prophet (prophet Muhammad), and God and prophet Muhammad is saying that the earlier word is corrupted. If so, Christian and Jewish people would be baffled to hear the story, since God is not updating their leaders/people in any meaningful/logical way)

You will always have this problem. people will become sceptic when they did not witnessed something unnatural themselves. even in your suggestion, lets say "God did not sent Jesus(as) to Earth, but rather talked to high Jewish rabbis to update them"...even when those rabbis were updated...all other rabbis would just stop following them...they would become outcast as soon as they preach to burn the Thalmood, stop treating goyims as animals, that other races are equal to Jews, etc. etc.

But that is the whole point of believing...at some point, you have to make the choice believing or not believing. "Believing" meant for the Jews, to give up those fine rules they made up for themselves which created a lot of convienence for them, they were better than other races, etc...so they just chose not to give that up...no matter what.

I am sure some of the high rabbi's DID notice some remarkable miracles of Jesus(as) when he talked to people as a baby, when he walked on water, healed the sick and blind people etc. I mean he did not have just one miracle...his whole life was one big miracle...I am sure the Jews did witness at least some remarkable stuff...but they just choose to ignore.

People have been reporting their healing abilities throughout the history. And those people who managed to heal others, were trying to help skeptics understand the existence of the phenomenon ever since, however, skeptics never believed that healing is real. Let me take an example:

"Go to the Traveller office and make inquiry there, of some of these cures. Are not these facts before the world?"

"Mr. 'Miler. I will give you a fact. Captain Knight, of the steamer Lewiston, which runs between your city and Portland, had, some time ago, a passenger upon his boat, who had been sent to this city to have a palsied arm amputated. The captain suggested to this man that he should visit Dr. Greenwood, a healing medium. He did so, and in one hour’s time, that withered, palsied arm, which had become diseased, and which eight learned physicians had declared must be amputated, was made whole by simply laying on of hands, and the man used it, and it was as strong as ever. Dr. Greenwood is at No. 15 Tremont Street; and within a stone's throw of this building are men who can come in and testify that, by simply laying on of his hands, they have got up from sick—beds where they were prostrated. Go to the Traveller office and make inquiry there, of some of these cures. Are not these facts before the world?"

Source: Great Discussion of Modern Spiritualism, Between Prof. J. Stanley Grimes and Leo Miller, Esq p.74

We cannot come to a conclusion of this mystery even today, since no one managed to prove their healing powers in any convincing way in a scientific setting. However, I see that the healing phenomenon is real. Jesus, prophet Muhammad and even mediums (people who believe that they communicate with spirits) healed people. To help human beings to understand the truth, we must understand the psychology of human beings. What make us convince ourselves that this is the truth? The intelligence behind Abrahamic religions failed to address this.

These people are looking for evidences to prove religion is true....at that point you will always fail, because science does not cover the area of religion...if science would be able to prove religion is real, then the whole point of religion would be void. we came to Earth to find God on our own...to believe in God...if we could prove God exists, then this whole "life on Earth" would be pointless.
We should stop thinking that science is everything....science is just a human tool to understand the universe...it is an appoximation of the truth, not the absolute truth....as we develop ourselves, this approximation is getting better and better...but will never be enough to reach the absolute truth.

We have seen supernatural acts even in the 19th century when spiritualism was establishing on Earth. Certainly, these strange events on Earth create massive moments. However, people who question these deeply find more questions than answers. Therefore, we could clearly see a movement that reject all these due to issues that they observe when coming to a conclusion. People simply don't know what to make out of these, since they cannot verify evidence in a convincing way:

"Charles L. Tweedale, an English vicar, has been so impressed with the importance of supernormal revelation, and, through his work among all sorts and conditions of men, so impressed with the conviction that a more intense and vital belief in the reality of life after death is one of the urgent needs of the times, that he has published a book, giving, first of all, the scriptural proofs of resurrection, and adding to these, psychic experiences of his own and of many acquaintances.

A careful study of the Bible, he declares, reveals a record of almost continuous supernormal experiences, and these experiences he has taken pains to classify under their proper heads, as : clairvoyance, levitation, strange sounds and supernormal lights, appearances of spirit hands and the touch of discarnate beings, automatic writing, sounds of music and other manifestations. All are very similar to the psychical experiences of today. I would like to add, a little more in detail, a few of the New Testament examples that are very indicative of the good that came to the early disciples through spiritual guidance."

Source: Spirit world and spirit life : descriptions received through automatic writing by Charlotte Dresser - (p. 207)

Exactly...so did those high rabbis never witness at first hand any of those supernatural events? (sceptists are usually people who did not witness something themselves but hear some supernatural event from other...so they try to come up with a rational explanation...usually people who witness it themselves are not sceptic.)

[DanRaleigh]

You will always have this problem. people will become sceptic when they did not witnessed something unnatural themselves. even in your suggestion, lets say "God did not sent Jesus(as) to Earth, but rather talked to high Jewish rabbis to update them"...even when those rabbis were updated...all other rabbis would just stop following them...they would become outcast as soon as they preach to burn the Thalmood, stop treating goyims as animals, that other races are equal to Jews, etc. etc.

Exactly...so did those high rabbis never witness at first hand any of those supernatural events? (sceptists are usually people who did not witness something themselves but hear some supernatural event from other...so they try to come up with a rational explanation...usually people who witness it themselves are not sceptic.)

I'm not sure if you understand the issue that I'm pointing out. Let me explain this way. If someone performs miracles today and claims that the Quran doesn't have the word of God and if he further claims that the beliefs and practices of Muslim people are false, do you think that will be enough to change the minds of Muslim people/religious leaders?

It should be obvious to you that people don't change religious beliefs that easily, and that's because we truly believe that our conclusions are right. So people need convincing evidence to change. It's not logical to think that if God exists and if he speaks to us, he will fail to provide us convincing evidence since we are judging an intelligence who we think has created the entire universe and all types of beings in the universe.

If the religious belief of Christians and Jewish people are wrong, God will have to take meaningful actions and engage in meaningful discussions to correct them, since we look for evidence (this is common sense). However, we cannot see Prophet Muhammad was having any meaningful discussions with Christians and Jewish leaders/people. I'm I wrong here? This tells us that if God exists, he can't be the intelligence communicating with prophet Muhammad, since God should understand the human nature well.

(To make sense of this, think about it this way. Assume God appointed another prophet today. If so, what kind of actions he will have to take to correct our beliefs if our beliefs are false? It won't be an easy task. Sending revelations from time to time to a person cannot fix it. Performing miracles alone won't fix it. So, can we find those meaningful actions taken by God/ Prophet Muhammad? How can God fail to take any meaningful actions, if he indeed was communicating to us for 22 years?)

When we analyze the life story of Jesus, we still cannot see God taking any meaningful actions, if he indeed was communicating with Jesus. If someone claims that God exists, and he was communicating with Jesus and Prophet Muhammad, this is the result of his work:

Crusades (1095–1291) For two hundred years, European Christians tried to wrest control of the Holy Land from the Muslims. Perhaps 3 million people died in these wars.
Taiping Rebellion (1850–64) Twenty million died in a messianic uprising of Chinese Christians.
Panthay Rebellion (1855–73) A rebellion of Muslims in southeast China killed a million.
Hui Rebellion (1862–78) Another rebellion of Muslims in northwest China killed 640,000
Mahdi Revolt (1881–98) Five and a half million Sudanese died during this fundamentalist Muslim uprising.
Ukraine (1648–54) During a rebellion against Poland, Cossacks under Bogdan Chmielnicki massacred as many as 100,000 Jews and wiped out three hundred Jewish communities

The source of this book is "The Great Big Book of Horrible things." You could see these figures under the heading of "The Thirty Deadliest Religious Killings"

These figures are disturbing.

[Ümit]

I'm not sure if you understand the issue that I'm pointing out. Let me explain this way. If someone performs miracles today and claims that the Quran doesn't have the word of God and if he further claims that the beliefs and practices of Muslim people are false, do you think that will be enough to change the minds of Muslim people/religious leaders?

Yes and No.

No, only because:
God already communicated to us that Mohammad sas is the final prophet that comes to us and Islaam is the final version of the true religion. If that wasn't the case, then yes...if the religious leaders would witness someone talking to them as a baby, walked on water, healed the blind, raised people from their deaths...just like Isa(as) did...then yeah...that should be enough proof that person was telling the truth...unless of course those religious people were so corrupt in their ways so that they reject everything....but even if the religious leaders wouldn't change their mind because of their corruptness, there would be enough other people to stand up and follow the true path and find new religious leaders.

It should be obvious to you that people don't change religious beliefs that easily, and that's because we truly believe that our conclusions are right. So people need convincing evidence to change. It's not logical to think that if God exists and if he speaks to us, he will fail to provide us convincing evidence since we are judging an intelligence who we think has created the entire universe and all types of beings in the universe.

Normally no. but the prophets were no ordinairy people...each and everyone of them were highly reliable, gentle people, respected and accepted in the society. and then such unnatural miracles coming from such people should be convincing evidence enough. it's not logical to witness all those amazing miracles and then say..."thank you for the show but I still do not believe"...that is ignorance, nothing else.

If the religious belief of Christians and Jewish people are wrong, God will have to take meaningful actions and engage in meaningful discussions to correct them, since we look for evidence (this is common sense).

you cannot have meaningful discussion with corrupted people. they would resist for what it takes. They would ignore and deny for their own personal set of reasons....but the people who see the truth will stop following those corrupted leaders and find the true path...and so it happened. again, those performed miracles are evidence enough for it.

However, we cannot see Prophet Muhammad was having any meaningful discussions with Christians and Jewish leaders/people. I'm I wrong here? This tells us that if God exists, he can't be the intelligence communicating with prophet Muhammad, since God should understand the human nature well.

(To make sense of this, think about it this way. Assume God appointed another prophet today. If so, what kind of actions he will have to take to correct our beliefs if our beliefs are false? It won't be an easy task. Sending revelations from time to time to a person cannot fix it. Performing miracles alone won't fix it. So, can we find those meaningful actions taken by God/ Prophet Muhammad? How can God fail to take any meaningful actions, if he indeed was communicating to us for 22 years?)

Why would performing miracles wont fix it? "sending revelations from time to time to a person?" that illustrates how little you understand about the whole situation...don't forget that Mohammad was a well known individual in the society...everyone knew him as friendly, trustworthy, reliable, soft tempered, reasonable...and never lied...and of course that he was a simple person who never had anything to do with books because he was illiterate.
So, from such a person, who has no access to knowledge or whatever suddenly comes revelations, more than 600 pages, in high poetical arabic, and highly accurate words...that should be obvious that that cannot be fabricated from such a person...that should be logical to you.

When we analyze the life story of Jesus, we still cannot see God taking any meaningful actions, if he indeed was communicating with Jesus. If someone claims that God exists, and he was communicating with Jesus and Prophet Muhammad, this is the result of his work:

Crusades (1095–1291) For two hundred years, European Christians tried to wrest control of the Holy Land from the Muslims. Perhaps 3 million people died in these wars.
Taiping Rebellion (1850–64) Twenty million died in a messianic uprising of Chinese Christians.
Panthay Rebellion (1855–73) A rebellion of Muslims in southeast China killed a million.
Hui Rebellion (1862–78) Another rebellion of Muslims in northwest China killed 640,000
Mahdi Revolt (1881–98) Five and a half million Sudanese died during this fundamentalist Muslim uprising.
Ukraine (1648–54) During a rebellion against Poland, Cossacks under Bogdan Chmielnicki massacred as many as 100,000 Jews and wiped out three hundred Jewish communities

The source of this book is "The Great Big Book of Horrible things." You could see these figures under the heading of "The Thirty Deadliest Religious Killings"

These figures are disturbing.

So you are listing up wars to show us how messed up this world is...so what is the point you are making?
God did a terrible job by creating an unfair world?
Why did those people had to die a terrible deaths during those wars?
Why did those people deserve those sufferings?
If these are some of the questions in your head, then you still having trouble realizing why you are here on Earth at the first place.
It means, you still do not know what the purpose of life is...your life is meaningless...you have no goals to live for....that is highly disturbing I must say.

[DanRaleigh]

Normally no. but the prophets were no ordinairy people...each and everyone of them were highly reliable, gentle people, respected and accepted in the society. and then such unnatural miracles coming from such people should be convincing evidence enough. it's not logical to witness all those amazing miracles and then say..."thank you for the show but I still do not believe"...that is ignorance, nothing else.

Normally no. but the prophets were no ordinairy people...each and everyone of them were highly reliable, gentle people, respected and accepted in the society. and then such unnatural miracles coming from such people should be convincing evidence enough. it's not logical to witness all those amazing miracles and then say..."thank you for the show but I still do not believe"...that is ignorance, nothing else.

If someone who has all these qualities performs miracles and claims that Allah is not the God or Yahweh is not the God, I won't be surprised to hear some people telling him that "thank you for the show but I still do not believe." If you go to an advanced community and say that their religion is corrupted, they will expect to hear a good explanation from you, if not people would reject you.

you cannot have meaningful discussion with corrupted people. they would resist for what it takes. They would ignore and deny for their own personal set of reasons....but the people who see the truth will stop following those corrupted leaders and find the true path...and so it happened. again, those performed miracles are evidence enough for it.

If God decided to help Christian and Jewish people (or skeptics) understand the truth, what can a corrupted leader(s) do to stop him?

(Although, some rabbis changed their beliefs, we cannot see God/prophet Muhammad was taking any meaningful actions that were needed to make a change in religious beliefs in our society. This is the point that I'm making. 22 years, is a long time. So, if God had a wish and if he was taking actions to correct these beliefs, then we should be able to see history reporting the actions taken by God and Prophet Muhammad)

So you are listing up wars to show us how messed up this world is...so what is the point you are making?
God did a terrible job by creating an unfair world?
Why did those people had to die a terrible deaths during those wars?
Why did those people deserve those sufferings?
If these are some of the questions in your head, then you still having trouble realizing why you are here on Earth at the first place.
It means, you still do not know what the purpose of life is...your life is meaningless...you have no goals to live for....that is highly disturbing I must say.

For someone to blame God/Allah, that person will have to believe in the existence of God first. Since I don’t find convincing evidence there, I don’t find a reason to worry. So, I was simply stating some facts to show my viewpoint in the reply.

[Ümit]

Normally no. but the prophets were no ordinairy people...each and everyone of them were highly reliable, gentle people, respected and accepted in the society. and then such unnatural miracles coming from such people should be convincing evidence enough. it's not logical to witness all those amazing miracles and then say..."thank you for the show but I still do not believe"...that is ignorance, nothing else.

If someone who has all these qualities performs miracles and claims that Allah is not the God or Yahweh is not the God, I won't be surprised to hear some people telling him that "thank you for the show but I still do not believe." If you go to an advanced community and say that their religion is corrupted, they will expect to hear a good explanation from you, if not people would reject you.

If I was a well known respected member of that community and by declaring their Gods false I raised Elvis from the dead or Hitler or 2Pac, then I am pretty sure there would be enough people who would believe me. Maybe not the leaders...because they would lose everything...so they have a personal reason to resist...but I wouldn't need them anyways...it's the people themselves I want to have on my side not the corrupted leaders.

If God decided to help Christian and Jewish people (or skeptics) understand the truth, what can a corrupted leader(s) do to stop him?

nothing

(Although, some rabbis changed their beliefs, we cannot see God/prophet Muhammad was taking any meaningful actions that were needed to make a change in religious beliefs in our society. This is the point that I'm making. 22 years, is a long time. So, if God had a wish and if he was taking actions to correct these beliefs, then we should be able to see history reporting the actions taken by God and Prophet Muhammad)

What would you consider as meaningful actions? please elaborate.

Also what is this 22 years you are talking about? are you referring to the time Allah took to reveal the entire Quraan? in 22 years?
You think Allah has been trying to communicate with us for 22 years?

Well your wrong...Allah communicated with us from the very beginning when Adam(as) roamed the Earth untill now...He never lost contact with us.

For someone to blame God/Allah, that person will have to believe in the existence of God first. Since I don’t find convincing evidence there, I don’t find a reason to worry. So, I was simply stating some facts to show my viewpoint in the reply.

So?
I could list up the ingredients of a mc Wopper as a fact if you know what I mean.

Those facts are only meaningfull if it is relevant.
So, in what way is the list of religious wars relevant to this discussion?
What does these information prove to you? what is your viewpoint.

If you want to look at the issue from scientific perspective, then the whole matter is quite simple:
Science does not cover spirituality...there is no evidence of the existence of a creator...and never will be...
But the absence of evidence for something is not a proof something does not exist...you should remember that.

Also if we stay at the side of science:
We have a given (out of the blue): the Quraan.
Explain the origin of it. Who is the Author...when is it written and how?
If you can find scientific answers to those questions...you will get your proof whether God exists or not.

[DanRaleigh]

If I was a well known respected member of that community and by declaring their Gods false I raised Elvis from the dead or Hitler or 2Pac, then I am pretty sure there would be enough people who would believe me. Maybe not the leaders...because they would lose everything...so they have a personal reason to resist...but I wouldn't need them anyways...it's the people themselves I want to have on my side not the corrupted leaders.

I will answer toyour questions soon. Can I know your viewpoint on this as well? Assume you arethe God(God exists) and you created the universe and beings in the universe. Ifso, do you think you would have also created an eternal hell for a finite crime? I will never doit, and I can certainly say that so many human beings out there will say the same. So for me, it shows that there are so many human beings out therewho are more compassionate than God, if God exists. I see that as another fundamental issue.

How can we see human beings are more compassionate than God? What'syour viewpoint on this, and can I know the explanation given by God to create an eternal hell?

[AabiruSabeel]

I will answer toyour questions soon. Can I know your viewpoint on this as well? Assume you arethe God(God exists) and you created the universe and beings in the universe. Ifso, do you think you would have also created an eternal hell for a finite crime? I will never doit, and I can certainly say that so many human beings out there will say the same. So for me, it shows that there are so many human beings out therewho are more compassionate than God, if God exists. I see that as another fundamental issue.

How can we see human beings are more compassionate than God? What'syour viewpoint on this, and can I know the explanation given by God to create an eternal hell?

Your question has been clarified here:

[DanRaleigh]

Your question has been clarified here:

Thanks for sharing the link. There’s a problem with that explanation. For me to help you see my point of view, I will have to ask you this question now. Let’s assume that Jesus is the Son of God and Christians were telling the truth to us. So, assume, except Christians, we all are having false beliefs.

You are a born Muslim (I assume) and if you are a born Muslim, you will have a unique worldview. Since you and other Muslims as in general have a unique worldview, what kind of actions do you think Christians will have to take, in order to make you and the whole Muslim world understand that Jesus is the Son of God or in other words, what will make you convinced that the beliefs and practices of yours and other Muslim people around the world are false?

[AabiruSabeel]

It seems like you haven't watched the video that I linked above, and other videos that I linked in my previous post. You're back to square one.

[DanRaleigh]

I watched all the videos. Dr. Zakir was explaining the Muslim view on that. But, I think it should be apparent to you that Christians are rejecting that explanation, and it's not because their leaders/people are corrupted. I will reply to Ümit's earlier questions as well once I get a reply to this. So, my question is, if the beliefs of Christians are right, what will make you convinced that the beliefs and practices of yours and other Muslim people around the world are false?

[Abz2000]

Well,
First of..... Gabriel didn't tell the prophet :saws: everything on day one, and there were many monotheist Christians settled in Arabia at the time.
There's not much point in hypothesising how waraqah in nawfal's personal biases might have been ruffled ... if ... since we can waste a lot of time making up fictional scenarios and not really get anywhere in terms of productivity and positivity.

We could easily say: what if it was previously believed that 2+2=5, and that equation was correct.... Then someone came along and falsely claimed that 2+2=4......
Well the new claim would need some convincing pointers, and Muhammad :saws: was showered with pointers, as is the case with messages from God, and the logical sense in what he taught soundly surpasses and confounds previously held false presumptions, opinions and ideas.


Re falsely held opinions: say for instance, that previous scientific research by some caused them to falsely opine that human sperm consisted of miniature fully formed human beings in liquid suspension, if it was a widely held belief, then a more convincing argument would be needed to convince the common individul that the formation takes place in later stages.....


..... Btw,

Click to enlarge:

Attachment 7274


What if Tony Blair was an alien who was trying to assist the decepticons in their attempt to eat up planet earth, and in the meantime, eat people's ears as a source of energy, how would you convince people that they are wrong in being incredulous of the story?

[DanRaleigh]

First of..... Gabriel didn't tell the prophet everything on day one, and there were many monotheist Christians settled in Arabia at the time.
There's not much point in hypothesising how waraqah in nawfal's personal biases might have been ruffled ... if ... since we can waste a lot of time making up fictional scenarios and not really get anywhere in terms of productivity and positivity

First of..... Gabriel didn't tell the prophet everything on day one, and there were many monotheist Christians settled in Arabia at the time.
There's not much point in hypothesising how waraqah in nawfal's personal biases might have been ruffled ... if ... since we can waste a lot of time making up fictional scenarios and not really get anywhere in terms of productivity and positivity

I know that the question that I asked “what will make you convinced that Jesus is the Son of God and beliefs of Christians are true?” is difficult to answer (I still hope to see your answer). Is it because, as a born Muslim, there's nothing convincing in their claim and the evidence they provide you?

Now, if God/Farther of Jesus, exists as per the claim made by Christians if you are a born Muslim, is it possible for you to find those evidence or answers to your questions, by listening to what Church leaders are saying or reading the Bible or looking at the universe, stars or how marvelous is the human body? Under these circumstances, if the claim made by Christians is true, but you are not Christian, who is responsible for this? Is it you?

On the other hand, if God exists as per the claim made by Christians, can you see whether their God taking any meaningful /logical actions to help you understand his existence? What’s your viewpoint on this?

[Abz2000]

I know that the question that I asked “what will make you convinced that Jesus is the Son of God and beliefs of Christians are true?” is difficult to answer (I still hope to see your answer). Is it because, as a born Muslim, there's nothing convincing in their claim and the evidence they provide you?

Now, if God/Farther of Jesus, exists as per the claim made by Christians if you are a born Muslim, is it possible for you to find those evidence or answers to your questions, by listening to what Church leaders are saying or reading the Bible or looking at the universe, stars or how marvelous is the human body? Under these circumstances, if the claim made by Christians is true, but you are not Christian, who is responsible for this? Is it you?

On the other hand, if God exists as per the claim made by Christians, can you see whether their God taking any meaningful /logical actions to help you understand his existence? What’s your viewpoint on this?

There's only one God, I don't recognize any God other than the One who originated the heavens and the earth, if "their god" is a different one, then it's a lousy fake.

Dude, you're an old timer on the forums (unless someone else uses the same username) so you should have some background idea of how it works. Don't you find it a ridiculous notion - to even try and convince a sane person that a man is his own co-eternal only begotten son. Same time, same entity, same value, not made, begotten, but co-eternal, come on dude, you're better than that aren't you? Words do have a meaning, don't they?

You can calculate God's logic for at least the lower heaven -up to a certain extent - with a computer, a school-child can tell you when a weight will hit the ground from a height -including trajectory, and a NASA scientist can compute the physical requirements for getting to mars.
But I don't think God could truthfully explain to all three combined (the computer, the school-child, and the NASA scientist) how he can be his own only begotten son, and God doesn't lie.
Please man, it's ridiculous, and you keep giving it to us as a foundation to start from and a base to structure the remainder of the matrix on, and it's a blatantly empty foundation. Bloody hell it's like an adaption of the emperor's new clothes, the pope's nicean confusion.


Attachment 7283

confuse

/kənˈfjuːz/
confuse
/kənˈfjuːz/
verb
verb: confuse; 3rd person present: confuses; past tense: confused; past participle: confused; gerund or present participle: confusing
make (someone) bewildered or perplexed.
"past and present blurred together, confusing her still further"
Similar:
bewilder
baffle
mystify
bemuse
perplex
puzzle
confound
befog
nonplus
disconcert
throw
set someone thinking
flummox
discombobulate
confusticate
faze
stump
beat
fox
floor
fog
buffalo
wilder
gravel
maze
cause to be at a stand
distract
pose
obfuscate
bewildering
baffling
difficult (to understand)
unclear
perplexing
puzzling
mystifying
mysterious
disconcerting
ambiguous
misleading
inconsistent
contradictory
unaccountable
inexplicable
impenetrable
unfathomable
above one's head
beyond one
complex
complicated
involved
intricate
convoluted
labyrinthine
Byzantine
wildering
Opposite:
enlighten
clear
make (something) more complex or less easy to understand.
"the points made by the authors confuse rather than clarify the issue"
Similar:
complicate
muddle
jumble
garble
make complex
make (more) difficult
blur
obscure
make unclear
cloud
obfuscate
embroil
Opposite:
simplify
identify wrongly; mistake.
"a lot of people confuse a stroke with a heart attack"
Similar:
mix up
muddle up
confound
misinterpret as
mistake for
take for
Opposite:
distinguish
Origin

Middle English (in the sense ‘rout, bring to ruin’):
from Old French confus, from Latin confusus, past participle of confundere ‘mingle together’ (see confound).
Originally all senses of the verb were passive, and therefore appeared only as the past participle confused ; the active voice occurred rarely until the 19th century when it began to replace confound .

[Ümit]

I will answer toyour questions soon. Can I know your viewpoint on this as well? Assume you arethe God(God exists) and you created the universe and beings in the universe. Ifso, do you think you would have also created an eternal hell for a finite crime? I will never doit, and I can certainly say that so many human beings out there will say the same. So for me, it shows that there are so many human beings out therewho are more compassionate than God, if God exists. I see that as another fundamental issue.

How can we see human beings are more compassionate than God? What'syour viewpoint on this, and can I know the explanation given by God to create an eternal hell?

as explained in the video, to understand this, your knowledge about Islam should be expanded a little more. it has interfaces with many other topics.
one of them is the topic free will for example. if you understand why free will is so important for us humans you would understand that thanks to free will we have a higher rank than angels, and thanks to free will we will get in heaven...if you want we can discuss in another thread how important this free will is.

But to obtain that true free will...there has to be a real choice...we should be able to actually choose between good and bad...if we all somehow (lets say for a silly reason) were not be able to choose for the bad because the people meant for the hell were not created...only the people for heaven were created) then there was no actual choice to make in the first place...which meant we didn't have actual free will....you understand how this interact with each other hopefully.

So, if there was not the bad to choose from...or we could somehow not choose for it...then there was no actual free will.
Therefore Hell must exist.

second part of the question is why forever.
Allah asked us during the event of Alas "Am I not your God?"
we responded "no you are".

The problem here is...when God asked us this question, we were witnessing God ourselves in front of us...so you cannot deny that question we witness His presence ourselves...but would we also give the same answer if we didn't witness the presence of God in front of us? God knows the answer to this question...but we don't...so coming to this world is a test for ourselves (not for God)...can we or can we not find God on ourselves? that is the test...that is our purose of life...if we pass it is Heaven for ever...if we fail it is hell forever...if Hell wan't forever, then this test is useless..then passing or failing the test would eventually lead to the same outcome...that wouldn't be fair...

Hope it is a little bit more clear now.

[ajazz]

Your argument is based on false information and assumptions.

"Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God; he is a prophet sent by Allah who is the God."

Why assume? We know what Angel Gabriel said to Prophet Muhammad (saw).

The first time Angel Gabriel spoke to Prophet Muhammad (saw) he never mentioned anything about Jesus.

Prophet Muhammad (saw) had the habit of meditating in a cave in Mount Hira (near Mecca), Gabriel suddenly appeared to him and said, “Read!”
Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) at first thought that he was expected to read actual script, which, being illiterate, he was unable to do, so he answered, “I cannot read”. But the angel said a second time,
“Read!”; and again Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) replied, “I cannot read”.
At this Gabriel (paraphrasing the Prophet)“…seized and pressed me to himself until all strength went out of me. ‘Read!’ the awesome voice commanded again; then he released me…” and Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) then received the first lines of the Qur’an.

Recite in the name of thy lord who created,
Created man from a clot;
Recite in the name of thy lord,
Who taught by the pen,
Taught man what he knew not.

Nothing about Jesus or son of God here.

Since prophet Muhammad has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to a Christian leader to clarify this matter (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else).

He did not go to any Christian leader, he went to his wife Khadija.

And she went to her cousin who was a Christian scholar not a leader his name was Waraqah ibn Nawfal.
He practiced the pure form of monotheism in the pre-Islamic era and
used to write Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew, and hence he was well versed in Gospels.

This very fact tells us that Prophet Muhammad (saw) was of rational mind and so he sought confirmation for his experience.
which Waraqah ibn Nawfal confirmed that indeed it was Angel Gabriel, same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet Moses (pbuh).

Waraqah said, 'That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly.'" (Bukhari 4:55:605.)

So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leader? Will that leader tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? Obviously, you would know that the reply would never be a positive one.

There is no response from any Christian leader and none expected because prophet Muhammad (saw) did not seek any confirmation from them nor consulted them.
Hardly any body knew about this incident at that time except few including his wife and her cousin.

Regardless of the reply, assume further that prophet Muhammad ends up in contacting so many Christian leaders as well to get a better understanding of this controversy. What will their reaction would be?

What controversy? There was none,
Why you keep assuming? put forward some evidence instead.
And he did not contact any Christian leaders.
You are making false assumptions without evidence.

I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet sent by Allah? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)?

The personal contact with Angle Gabriel and the fact that a Christian scholar confirming it that indeed it was the same same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet Moses hence he needed no further confirmation.

In fact later on Jewish scholar of Torah by the name of Al-Hosayn ibn Salam whom People considered him a rabbi and who later converted to Islam.
confirmed the claim of Prophet Muhammad (saw).

"The Prophet agreed and invited prominent Jews to visit him.
Then he asked them, “What is the status of Al-Hosayn ibn Salam among you?” They replied, “He is our leader and our rabbi.”

The Prophet (peace be upon him) asked, “If you come to know that he has accepted Islam, would you accept Islam also?” They said unanimously, “God forbid! He would not accept Islam. May God protect him from accepting Islam.”

At this point, Abdullah (Al-Hosayn) ibn Salam came out from the room and announced: “O, The assembly of Jews! Be conscious of God and accept what Muhammad has brought. By God, you certainly know that he is the Messenger of God and you can find prophecies about him and mention of his name and characteristics in your Torah. I for my part declare that he is the true Messenger of God...”"

https://bit.ly/3zL0hvt

This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

No such problem exist rather there is difference and commonality among Abrahamic religions, With Islam being the most strict and pure monotheist religion amongst the three.

Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

If you make such claim I will ask for evidence.
"Burden of proof lies with the one who makes the claim."

Now I make a claim that Only God as described in the Noble Quran is the true God i.e. Allah.

Here is my proof...

"Rational, logical argument with scientific evidence for existence of Allah"

https://www.quora.com/What-makes-Isl...er/Ajazz-Shake

In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was not lying?

Already answered above
The fact that whole of Araba converted to Islam means Prophet Muhammad (saw) proved to the people that indeed he was a true prophet.

Therefore, because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders. One of these assumptions has to be true.

Don't depend on assumptions

Here is the evidence for Quran as word of God.

https://www.quora.com/Who-wrote-the-...er/Ajazz-Shake

Here is evidence for Jesus is not son of God.

https://ehrmanblog.org/is-the-trinity-in-the-bible/
https://ehrmanblog.org/tag/son-of-god/

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan and they were deceived Satan.

No Muslims claim such thing,
The true teaching of Jesus (pbuh) were from Allah (swt) later on Christians scholars and church changed and corrupted the teaching of Jesus to suit their own agenda.

But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders (till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years (had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst since now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs. Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

This is Slippery Slope argument!

You are making false conclusions because of your lack of understanding of Islam and its teachings.


If Allah wanted he would have made everybody Muslims.

"If it had been thy Lord's will, they would all have believed ,- all who are on earth! wilt thou then compel mankind, against their will, to believe!” [Noble Quran -10:99]

So if Allah wants he can fix all the issues that exist on this earth.
But our life on this earth is meant to be with issues so that we can make choices.

Because our life on this earth is test and we go through this test by using our free will.

“Verily, We shall test you with some fear, and hunger, and with some loss of wealth, lives, and offspring. So give good news to those who are patient. Those who say, when inflicted by hardship, ‘Verily to Allah we belong, and verily to Him shall we return,’ Upon them is the blessings of Allah and His mercy. And they are the rightly guided.”(Surah Al-Quran 2:155-157)

I think you need to study Islam properly but you must set aside your confirmation bias.

Here is something to expand your perspective.


For what purpose would Allah have created us?

https://www.quora.com/For-what-purpo...er/Ajazz-Shake

Why are there so many religions?

https://www.quora.com/Why-are-there-...er/Ajazz-Shake


And Allah knows best.

Have a nice day.

.

[DanRaleigh]

There's only one God, I don't recognize any God other than the One who originated the heavens and the earth, if "their god" is a different one, then it's a lousy fake.

Dude, you're an old timer on the forums (unless someone else uses the same username) so you should have some background idea of how it works. Don't you find it a ridiculous notion - to even try and convince a sane person that a man is his own co-eternal only begotten son. Same time, same entity, same value, not made, begotten, but co-eternal, come on dude, you're better than that aren't you? Words do have a meaning, don't they?

I agree with you. When we analyze this situation, we can see that the troubling questions that you and skeptics have as in general about Christianity, the Bible, or Christian religious leaders cannot answer (if God exists, only God can answer). Therefore, if you are not a Christian, you will not agree with certain claims made by Christians and I understand your perspective. But then when a Christian (or a skeptic) tries to make sense of Islam, they have the same issue. For instance, one of the questions that were troubling non-believers is that "how can a sane person thinks that food and stones can greet?" Even if you say that God spoke to Prophet Muhammad and he performed Miracles back then, you can see that none of these help a person who never had these experiences or seen these miracles, to conclude that God was communicating with prophet Muhammad.

Unless you are born to a family that believes in a specific religion, the majority asks a thousand questions before coming to a conclusion due to the controversies that we see. Such a nature can be seen in human beings.

If God exists and if he knows that we are looking for answers, why God and angels are silent? (If I want to follow Islam by speaking to an angel, can I do that? If so, I don't have a reason to reject Islam)

If we can see God or angels, we all can agree that God and angels exist. If so, we don’t have to believe in his existence and angels, we know his existence and the existence of angels. God could have fixed the disbelief issue if needed.

If we can see heaven, then we can understand the existence of heaven. But we don't have these abilities. God could have solved this issue by creating us with such abilities. God haven't seen this as a solution to disbelieve in him.

If people from heaven can communicate with us, then also we can understand the existence of heaven. The existence of heaven would be obvious to all of us (I won’t be asking this question if so). Seems like even if we go to heaven, we will not gain such an ability, so parents can educate their children who are on Earth about heaven. Another issue that we as human beings can’t fix, but God hasn't seen this as a fix to resolve the issue related to disbelief.

If a prophet can live longer (let’s say 1000 years) and if angels are communicating with the prophet, we can still find answers to these troubling questions always. This is a problem related to the system God uses to deliver knowledge to humanity (God can easily fix the issue related to disbelief if needed, but we don't see this).

If God created this entire universe and all the beings, God can create angels in such a way where they can communicate with religious leaders at least. If so, he could have fixed the issue related to disbelief. But we don’t see this.

History reports that God and angels was communicating with people quite often in ancient times, but we can see that this communication has also been ended. (God could have fixed the disbelief issue if the communication never ended by giving logical answers)

If there was no such a last prophet, still God could have fixed the issue related to disbelief. We won't be having these controversies today if so. (He was not taking a logical decision here)

(It should be obvious to God that people cannot fix this mystery surrounding our religions)

If you think about all these, you would know that if God wants to fix the issue related to disbelief, he could have fixed it. If someone holds this belief, I totally agree with you. When we analyze all these controversies, how can we still say that God exists and God was behind human experiences?

[DanRaleigh]

Correction: If you think about all these, you would know that if God wants to fix the issue related to disbelief, he could have fixed it. If someone holds this belief, I totally agree with you. When we analyze all these controversies, how can we still say that God exists and God was behind human experiences, since this is a controversial stance. This implies that disbelief is also there in the world due to a decision that was taken by God or how do you explain this controversy?

[Ümit]

Pff Dan, Slowly I do not know what to think about you anymore...I mean...the questions you asked have been answered over and over again...yet, you are still in parrot mode repeating everything over and over again. Is it too difficult for you? or are you trolling us?

One last time I will try to answer everything...hope you will understand this time.
Here we go:

I agree with you. When we analyze this situation, we can see that the troubling questions that you and skeptics have as in general about Christianity, the Bible, or Christian religious leaders cannot answer (if God exists, only God can answer). Therefore, if you are not a Christian, you will not agree with certain claims made by Christians and I understand your perspective. But then when a Christian (or a skeptic) tries to make sense of Islam, they have the same issue. For instance, one of the questions that were troubling non-believers is that "how can a sane person thinks that food and stones can greet?"

You think we 'Muslim don't belong to the category of "sane person"? neither would we ever think that food and stones can greet. But if the Quraan says so...then we believe. It is a given in the Quraan...so there is no room for argument here.

Even if you say that God spoke to Prophet Muhammad and he performed Miracles back then, you can see that none of these help a person who never had these experiences or seen these miracles, to conclude that God was communicating with prophet Muhammad.

I gave you a challenge if you remember. From the science point of view, there is no evidence for the existence of God...but there is a Book which has been claimed to be divine...the Quraan...examine its origin...the Author....and your findings will carry you further in your investigations.

Unless you are born to a family that believes in a specific religion, the majority asks a thousand questions before coming to a conclusion due to the controversies that we see. Such a nature can be seen in human beings.

which is natural because there are a lot of aspects to be learned and understood first, before one can start to believe...it is not that easy. But one crucial part is that one has to be open minded...and to be honest to yourself.

If God exists and if he knows that we are looking for answers, why God and angels are silent? (If I want to follow Islam by speaking to an angel, can I do that? If so, I don't have a reason to reject Islam)

Because the whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

If we can see God or angels, we all can agree that God and angels exist. If so, we don’t have to believe in his existence and angels, we know his existence and the existence of angels. God could have fixed the disbelief issue if needed.

The whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

If we can see heaven, then we can understand the existence of heaven. But we don't have these abilities. God could have solved this issue by creating us with such abilities. God haven't seen this as a solution to disbelieve in him.

The whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

If people from heaven can communicate with us, then also we can understand the existence of heaven. The existence of heaven would be obvious to all of us (I won’t be asking this question if so). Seems like even if we go to heaven, we will not gain such an ability, so parents can educate their children who are on Earth about heaven. Another issue that we as human beings can’t fix, but God hasn't seen this as a fix to resolve the issue related to disbelief.

The whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

If a prophet can live longer (let’s say 1000 years) and if angels are communicating with the prophet, we can still find answers to these troubling questions always. This is a problem related to the system God uses to deliver knowledge to humanity (God can easily fix the issue related to disbelief if needed, but we don't see this).

The whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

If God created this entire universe and all the beings, God can create angels in such a way where they can communicate with religious leaders at least. If so, he could have fixed the issue related to disbelief. But we don’t see this.

The whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

History reports that God and angels was communicating with people quite often in ancient times, but we can see that this communication has also been ended. (God could have fixed the disbelief issue if the communication never ended by giving logical answers)

The whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

If there was no such a last prophet, still God could have fixed the issue related to disbelief. We won't be having these controversies today if so. (He was not taking a logical decision here)

The whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

(It should be obvious to God that people cannot fix this mystery surrounding our religions)

The whole purpose of life is to find your God by yourself...If the existence of God could be proven...then this whole life on Earth would be pointless.

If you think about all these, you would know that if God wants to fix the issue related to disbelief, he could have fixed it. If someone holds this belief, I totally agree with you. When we analyze all these controversies, how can we still say that God exists and God was behind human experiences?

These questions show clearly, that you still do not get it. There are a lot of problems in the world. it is not fair. this world has been designed as a test...it is a test, nothing more. it is meant to be unfair...it is meant to not be able to prove the existence of God. It is meant to believe or not to believe...to reject or to have doubts.

You must investigate...find your answers and get yourself convinced or not...and you have time until your death. Then this test is over.

God could have created a perfect world instead of this Earth...Fair, no hunger, no sufferings, no pain, no sorrow...oh wait...that already exists...which is heaven.
God could have created perfect creatures instead of these weak humans...Strong, fast, always obedient, never gets thirsty, or hungry, never gets tempted into doing something wrong, never lies or steals....oh wait...such creatures already exist...which are the angels.

But he wished to create something else...not as strong and fast as them...lazy, with a free mind...can be obedient or not whenever they like...gets tired fast...gets hungry and thisty...weak humans compared to the ultra powerful angels...

still humans can have a higher rank, only because we humans have a free will...we CHOOSE to believe...we CHOOSE to be obedient...we CHOOSE to walk on the right path...we might as well not do all that...but we CHOOSE to, out of our free will...That makes us more valuable than the angels...They are nothing more than mindless robots...just doing as the're told...we do that voluntarily.

The ones that pass this ultimate test are rewarded forever.
The ones that fail...you get the picture.

[Ümit]

Correction: If you think about all these, you would know that if God wants to fix the issue related to disbelief, he could have fixed it. If someone holds this belief, I totally agree with you. When we analyze all these controversies, how can we still say that God exists and God was behind human experiences, since this is a controversial stance. This implies that disbelief is also there in the world due to a decision that was taken by God or how do you explain this controversy?

There is no issue to fix. Read my last post with answers I gave you. There is nothing controversial here. God didn't create anyone inherently good or bad. Everyone who steps foot into this world has a good chance of leaving this Earth as a believer...The test maybe harder or easier depending on how strong the individual is, but is never too difficult...
It is our own choices that we make, decides whether we pass or fail.
God happens to know which decisions we are going to make, because God is beyond the grasp of time...but that doesn't change the fact that we are free in our choices...and we make our choices...not God.

Even if you have faith with the weight of a mustard grain, you are considered as a believer...so you have to try pretty hard to leave as a disbeliever.

[DanRaleigh]

You think we 'Muslim don't belong to the category of "sane person"? neither would we ever think that food and stones can greet. But if the Quraan says so...then we believe. It is a given in the Quraan...so there is no room for argument here.

Ümit, I see Muslim people as great people and I have great Muslim friends too and I see Christians and Jewish people in the same way, and then I see there are people in all our countries where they act in troubling ways because of the wrong decisions they make. If you read my reply carefully, you can see that I was only pointing out the back and forth arguments to show the issue that we have been facing. These issues can be found in all our religions.

These questions show clearly, that you still do not get it. There are a lot of problems in the world. it is not fair. this world has been designed as a test...it is a test, nothing more. it is meant to be unfair...it is meant to not be able to prove the existence of God. It is meant to believe or not to believe...to reject or to have doubts.

I actually did not understand your point of view on certain things. May I know whether you imply that because of the test, God did not want us to understand his existence by giving us the evidence that we need to understand without a doubt?

Thanks for everyone's replies. Appreciate it.

[Ümit]

Ümit, I see Muslim people as great people and I have great Muslim friends too and I see Christians and Jewish people in the same way, and then I see there are people in all our countries where they act in troubling ways because of the wrong decisions they make. If you read my reply carefully, you can see that I was only pointing out the back and forth arguments to show the issue that we have been facing. These issues can be found in all our religions.

No I already understood that. The only thing is, I’ve tried multiple times to tell you, that there is no issue to fix. God made sure that we will never be able to prove His existence in this life. The whole point of this life is realizing that and start believing.
You have to find God by believing in Him…if evidences existed, there would be no need to believe anymore would it?

So stop looking for scientific evidences…there isn’t any.
The only possibility for a science driven person is to investigate the author of the Quraan. Who wrote it? When? And why?

This will lead to a dead end. Because there is no author of the Quraan.
How can a book, multiplied by millions cannot have a known author?
Because God is the Author…maybe that will lead that person to let go and start believing.

I actually did not understand your point of view on certain things. May I know whether you imply that because of the test, God did not want us to understand his existence by giving us the evidence that we need to understand without a doubt?

Thanks for everyone's replies. Appreciate it.

In that case I am sorry. When I saw you repeating the same questions I got irritated and thought you were ignoring everything…but it didn’t occur to me that you didn’t understand.

So let’s take a few steps back.

Do you understand why free will is so important to us?
That Angels are much more powerful than us…but they are just like robots…they do as commanded and cannot say no.

We are much weaker…but we obey by choice….we use our free will for the good…that makes us much more valuable than the angels.

Next point:
Allah already knowing which choices we are going to make does not affect out free will.

An example:
Let us say you have a wide marble run.
You drill some holes in it at multiple places.
And then you let a handful of marbles all at the same time.
Now, the marbles will roll down the track only led by the laws of nature…some bump into each other and change their course…others bump into walls and change their course.
Some fall though the holes, others will reach the finish.

Now, let us say you have the ability to repeat the exact same experiment under the exact same conditions…every marble has the exact same spot as in the first experiment…and is being released at the exact same timing.

Or let us say you step into a time machine and travel back to the start of the experiment.

But this time you already know which marble will fall though the holes and which won’t.

However, you knowing this, does not affect the course of the marbles…it does not affect the outcome.

Now, we are the marbles. None of us is inherently good, or inherently evil. The only difference is, we can steer left or right on our own.

The marble represents this life. The marbles that reach the finish line are the believers…and the ones that fall through the holes are disbelievers…

God living outside the grasp of time knows in which direction we are going to steer during our lives, so he knows beforehand which one of us will reach the finish and which one of us won’t…however this does not affect our choice making.

Oh yes, one other thing…both good and evil…come from God. Evil or bad is also a creation of God…very important to realize that. If there was no evil…we would not have a real choice…which means, we would not have a true free will.

So evil is necessary to have a free will. It is also a creation of God.

Ehm…what else can I say…
God is omnipotent, He knows the outcome…so why is there a need for a test you might ask?
Yes, that is true…but this test is not for God…it is for us.
Let us say God created you…and threw you in Hell…without coming to Earth first…would you then not complain? Would you not ask “Why are you punishing me? What have I done wrong?”…of course you would.
Therefore, you first come to Earth…and make yourself a witness of your own choices.

Hope it is a little bit clear now…if you still don’t understand…please ask.

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you Dan.

if God exists.

The creation of the universe is history. No matter what you or I chooses to believe we can't change history. Either at least One god created the universe; or there is no god; you could be a 100% right or wrong on the toss of a coin. There cannot be a maybe or probable creator god.

Science cannot prove how the universe came to be purely by natural causes. Science cannot explain how life came from no life purely by natural causes. So if you say there is no God, this is only your belief; you do not have the evidence to back this up. Granted you may have a number of possible and inconclusive theories.

I am a Christian by the way.

In the spirit of searching for a greatest meaning of 'One God'
Eric

[Abz2000]

Imagine the proof was so solidly undeniable that even trump and biden and Obama and bush and Satan combined - would have credibility concerns over publicly denying it....even though they hated it.....

Giving them the technical benefit of doubt allows them to reject, and to label themselves separately.


Does anyone claim to have a more logical option?



Sūra 26: Shu’arāa, or The Poets
Verses 227 — Makki; Revealed at Mecca — Sections 11

١- طسم ◯
1. Tā. Sīn. Mīm.
٢- تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ الْمُبِينِ ◯
2. These are Verses of the Book That makes (things) clear.
٣-لَعَلَّكَ بَاخِعٌ نَّفْسَكَ أَلَّا يَكُونُوا مُؤْمِنِينَ ◯
3. It may be thou frettest Thy soul with grief, that they Do not become Believers.
٤- إِن نَّشَأْ نُنَزِّلْ عَلَيْهِم مِّنَ السَّمَاءِ آيَةً فَظَلَّتْ أَعْنَاقُهُمْ لَهَا خَاضِعِينَ ◯
4. If (such) were Our Will, We could send down to them From the sky a Sign, To which they would bend Their necks in humility.
٥- وَمَا يَأْتِيهِم مِّن ذِكْرٍ مِّنَ الرَّحْمَـٰنِ مُحْدَثٍ إِلَّا كَانُوا عَنْهُ مُعْرِضِينَ ◯
5. But there comes not To them a newly-revealed Message from (God) Most Gracious, But they turn away therefrom.
٦- فَقَدْ كَذَّبُوا فَسَيَأْتِيهِمْ أَنبَاءُ مَا كَانُوا بِهِ يَسْتَهْزِئُونَ ◯
6. They have indeed rejected (The Message) : so they will Know soon (enough) the truth Of what they mocked at !
٧- أَوَلَمْ يَرَوْا إِلَى الْأَرْضِ كَمْ أَنبَتْنَا فِيهَا مِن كُلِّ زَوْجٍ كَرِيمٍ ◯
7. Do they not look At the earth,—how many Noble things of all kinds We have produced therein ?
٨- إِنَّ فِي ذَٰلِكَ لَآيَةً ۖ وَمَا كَانَ أَكْثَرُهُم مُّؤْمِنِينَ ◯
8. Verily, in this is a Sign : But most of them Do not believe.
٩- وَإِنَّ رَبَّكَ لَهُوَ الْعَزِيزُ الرَّحِيمُ ◯
9. And verily, thy Lord Is He, the Exalted in Might, Most Merciful.