A Fundamental Problem with Abrahamic Religions. How can we resolve this?

[DanRaleigh]

This is a question about the Quran/Islam. I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions (including Christianity/Judaism) as in general. To help you understand this problem, let me explain the issue first:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God; he is a prophet sent by Allah who is the God. Since prophet Muhammad has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to a Christian leader to clarify this matter (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leader? Will that leader tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? Obviously, you would know that the reply would never be a positive one. Regardless of the reply, assume further that prophet Muhammad ends up in contacting so many Christian leaders as well to get a better understanding of this controversy. What will their reaction would be?

So now let me show you the issue here:

Based on the recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad (Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believed that Jesus is the God's son and he is not a prophet). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they knew this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet sent by Allah? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God (Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or will they say that someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was not lying? Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Therefore, because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders. One of these assumptions has to be true.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan and they were deceived Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says: Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds' Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.' Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.' Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)

Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary-and-jesus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders were believing is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders (till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years (had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst since now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs. Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

 

[M.I.A.]

There is a problem with your argument, you say abrahamic religions but have failed to state a case against the Jewish belief with regards to jesus christ pbuh.

So maybe a bit more on your part.
The quran also takes issue with the subject of the trinity as Christians would state it and yet is mindful of the Holy spirit and its recognition.

Lots of other quranic quotes that you could mention.

But in the end its not a matter of the facts but rather a matter of interpreting the facts which leads to so many different understandings.

If religion was like science, and the world only worked one way..

Then maybe things would have been easier to understand.. If not live with.

 

[Yunussalaf]

"Assume that on the first day..."

Firstly, we do not "assume" in Islam because we know with certainty of faith that Muhammed (salla Allahu alayhi wa selem) received revelation. And the proof is for everyone to study: The Glorious Qur'an which no-one has been able to contradict except with utter failure. Likewise the arguments and imaginative scenarios put forth in this question is dealt with in the Qur'an many times. I suggest one reads the verses of the Qur'an and ahadith pertaining to the issue.

This article also deals with a similar question:

https://www.---------------------/Responses/Osama/zawadi_s10_94.htm

 

[Zafran]

You are missing out the Jews who did not believe Jesus pbuh was God, incarnation, trinity etc - also Christians were a diverse group, even today Christians are diverse and have many disagreements on the explanation of the trinity or how the incarnation works. Muslims don't regard Christians "leaders" as authority - the Quran itself which is the revelation from God makes good arguments against the Idea of incarnation and Jewish theology supports this.

You are also exaggerating that Muslim and Christians kill each other because of theology, politics had more to do with it, not theology.

 

[Scimitar]

Do you even history? Pfft

 

[Flos]

This is a question about the Quran/Islam. I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions (including Christianity/Judaism) as in general. To help you understand this problem, let me explain the issue first:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God; he is a prophet sent by Allah who is the God. Since prophet Muhammad has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to a Christian leader to clarify this matter (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leader? Will that leader tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? Obviously, you would know that the reply would never be a positive one. Regardless of the reply, assume further that prophet Muhammad ends up in contacting so many Christian leaders as well to get a better understanding of this controversy. What will their reaction would be?

So now let me show you the issue here:

Based on the recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad (Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believed that Jesus is the God's son and he is not a prophet). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they knew this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet sent by Allah? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God (Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or will they say that someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was not lying? Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Therefore, because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders. One of these assumptions has to be true.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan and they were deceived Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says: Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds' Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.' Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.' Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)

Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary-and-jesus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders were believing is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders (till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years (had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst since now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs. Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

Looks like you have never tried to do any research. Right?

Before I start, may I ask you - why you keep saying "Christian leaders" - as if Christian believers don't have their own mind and freedom of thinking or whatever?

Do you, at all, know what Allah as a word means? It's a bit confusing your complaints over Jesus not being son of God.

Do you even know how the first revelation came to Muhammad saws? What was the first word, sentence, how, where, what? What happened before that?

Him going to his uncle, who was Christian was the most logical thing to do. Telling him that someone spoke to him, describing him, his uncle recognized angel Gabriel. What's unclear here? The uncle informed him about Moses and other prophets having same experiences... At the same time, Muhammad saws was well known in his nation as truthful, the most honest person living there, person of trust, etc...

I'm serious, start doing serious research before asking bunch of silly questions... I don't think it's smart to have any discussion with you regarding all of this before you do.

However, believing that a human being, a simple human being that sleeps, eats, goes to toilet is a god - that's silly. Torturing, killing and burdening God himself with people's sins - that's not just silly, it's super nonsense.

As for the conflicts and Christians not knowing that Jesus wasn't son of Allah is just simple Christians' fault. Jesus NEVER said he was son of God. Many Christian "sects" by the time prophet Muhammed saws believed he was just a prophet, not all sects went astray. On the other hand, we all know very well that this silliness about Jesus being divine comes from Greek and Roman mythology. Primitive pagans believed in human-like multiple gods and of course to their "logic" a man with some supernatural powers is just like Zeus, Dionis, etc.

Who is silly now?

 

[Ümit]

This is a question about the Quran/Islam. I'm not asking this question to personally attack you. Instead, I'm asking this to show you an issue with Abrahamic religions (including Christianity/Judaism) as in general. To help you understand this problem, let me explain the issue first:

Assume on the very first day when Gabriel speaks to prophet Muhammad tells him that Jesus is not the Son of God; he is a prophet sent by Allah who is the God. Since prophet Muhammad has no clue who this intelligence is, he goes to a Christian leader to clarify this matter (God spoke to them first and they are the best people to know about their God than anyone else). So here what kind of response we can expect from the Christian leader? Will that leader tell prophet Muhammad that the claim made by the intelligence is true? Obviously, you would know that the reply would never be a positive one. Regardless of the reply, assume further that prophet Muhammad ends up in contacting so many Christian leaders as well to get a better understanding of this controversy. What will their reaction would be?

So now let me show you the issue here:

Based on the recorded events we know that either Christian leaders would think that prophet Muhammad is crazy to think that Allah is the God or if not Christian leaders would think that an intelligence is deceiving prophet Muhammad (Cause by the 7th century, Christian leaders believed that Jesus is the God's son and he is not a prophet). And better than anyone else Christian leaders know who their God is (even before Prophet Muhammad was born to the world they knew this. So prophet Muhammad should not say that Jesus is not the Son of God.). Because of this controversy, I like to know, based on what reasoning prophet Muhammad came to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is just a prophet sent by Allah? is it because of the claim made by the intelligence itself? If an intelligence told this to prophet Muhammad, does that mean that the intelligence lied to prophet Muhammad (by telling Jesus is a prophet and Allah is the God)? This conflict of beliefs/claims, is a huge problem in Abrahamic religions.

(To make sense of this issue, you can also imagine the scenario where an intelligence speaking to you today and telling you that Leonardo is the God and Jesus is a prophet sent by God (Leonardo). And now you are conveying this message to Christian leaders. What will they think of you? Crazy? Or will they say that someone is deceiving you? On the other hand, someone can ask the question, “how did you come to the conclusion that Leonardo is the true God; how do you know if an intelligence is not deceiving you?” In prophet Muhammad's case, how did prophet Muhammad come to the conclusion that Allah is the God and Jesus is not the Son of God? And how he came to know that the intelligence was not lying? Also, imagine the situation if I tell Muslim people and Christian people today that Leonardo is the God. Further, that Allah is not the God and Jesus is not the Son of God either. What will they think of me?)

Therefore, because of this issue, either we have to say that someone deceived prophet Muhammad or if not we can say that someone has deceived Christian leaders. One of these assumptions has to be true.

To fix this issue, let's say that someone says that the Christianity was created by Satan and they were deceived Satan. However, the Quran clearly says the following:

i). “The Quran (Q21:91 and Q66:12) says that God blew through his angel into Mary and she, although being chaste bore Jesus without any father.”

ii). Further the Quran says: Quran 3:42 '... O Mary! God has chosen you and purified you and again he has chosen you above all women of all nations of the worlds' Quran 5:75 '... His (Jesus) mother (Mary) was a woman of truth.' Quran 21:91 'And (remember) her who guarded her chastity: We breathed into her of our spirit and we made her and her son a sign for all peoples.' Quran 3:3 'She was assigned to the care of Zachariah.' (Guardian & Uncle)

Source: https://www.islamicity.org/5645/mary-and-jesus-in-islam/

Meaning, whatever Christian leaders were believing is because of Allah's actions (if we consider this line of thinking). Let's say after Allah spreading his word about the Quran by appointing Jesus as a prophet, Satan confused Christian leaders. However, then that means, Allah knew exactly that Christian leaders were deceived by Satan after he sending Jesus. But Allah did not say anything to Christian leaders (till the 7th century and even up to this day, he totally neglected the issue) and instead of fixing the issue, he used prophet Muhammad and worked with him for 24 years (had enough time to fix it) to spread the word about the Quran. By doing so, he made the situation worst since now Christians and Muslim people have a reason to argue and kill each other as well based on religious beliefs. Therefore, if we take this hypothesis to fix the issue, this hypothesis tells us that Allah has no knowledge or an intelligence to resolve human issues, other than creating more and more conflicts or if not, this whole story implies that an intelligence was deceiving prophet Muhammad. How can we explain these controversies? If so, based on what reasoning?

İt is crystal clear that your understanding of the whole matter is below zero.
You do not know what you are talking about.
Please read more about Mohammad sas's life and hopefully you'll understand why this question is just silly.

 

[Eusra Fhaad inshaAllah]

Don't ask questions in ignoble mannerism about our Religion Islam.Many won't respond

 

[DanRaleigh]

Please ignore the repeated text in my reply. Seems like the forum does not have an option to edit text after posting.

 

[AabiruSabeel]

Your posts are blasphemous and we do not allow such posts here. I am just quoting some of the commonly misunderstood parts from your post.

So you might even wonder why Jewish people rejected Jesus. Well, if Jesus tells Jewish people/leaders an entirely different set of beliefs and practices than what they were practicing when Jesus was on Earth, then the outcome would be rejection. Jewish people would never respect Jesus, while people like Joseph Caiaphas rejecting Jesus. ...

Therefore, people would think Jesus is crazy or a false prophet/a trouble maker (which is what happened).

It is a misconception that Jesus ('Isa :as or any other prophet taught an entirely different set of beliefs and practices as compared to his previous prophets. That is simply not true. All the prophets were sent with the same Message, to believe in the One and Only God, Allah. The Message has been the same since the first man on earth, Adam :as: until the last and final messenger, Muhammad :saws:.

Allah :swt: says,

And We sent not before you any messenger except that We revealed to him that, "There is no deity except Me, so worship Me." [Al-Anbiya: 25]

The Jews and the Christians had the same message. They did not preserve the original message and corrupted it with their false beliefs. 'Isa :as: never proclaimed to be the son of God. If you study the original scriptures, you will still find similarities in all of them.

So let's be clear with this, it is the people who created the mess and deviated from the right path. Allah :swt: sent prophets and messengers to guide them back to the right path once again.

 

[DanRaleigh]

Thanks all for your replies. I have responded to all your questions. It would have been great to see my entire post is being accepted. What I have mentioned in my posts are normal responses that you can expect to hear from people. If I have addressed the issues in another way, perhaps, I could have avoided the misunderstandings. Anyway, I don't see the below point explains the controversy logically.

It is a misconception that Jesus ('Isa :as:) or any other prophet taught an entirely different set of beliefs and practices as compared to his previous prophets. That is simply not true. All the prophets were sent with the same Message, to believe in the One and Only God, Allah. The Message has been the same since the first man on earth, Adam :as: until the last and final messenger, Muhammad :saws:.

Let me try to explain to you why. Let's say that Islamic religious practices and beliefs were taught to us 3000+ years ago. But we know that before Jesus became a prophet, this teaching ended up creating Judaism on Earth, and we also know that the followers of Judaism had unique beliefs and practices under their religion (Judaism). In other words, God's actions ended up creating Judaism, and Judaism can no longer be identified as Islamic religious beliefs and practices when Jesus was on Earth.

Under these circumstances, if God appointed Jesus as a prophet to preach Islamic beliefs and practices once again, you would know that Jesus would be rejected by Jewish people. In other words, this explanation helps us to understand the mystery behind why Jewish people rejected Jesus (people no longer believed in practices and beliefs that can be identified as Islamic beliefs and practices, so they rejected Jesus).

(Just imagine the situation where you preach Islamic beliefs and practices to Jewish people today. Will they accept or reject?)

Since God knows that his actions ended up creating Judaism on Earth, if God who spoke to Jewish people started communicating to them once again to correct these false beliefs and practices, Jesus/God will have to take meaningful actions and engage in meaningful/logical discussions with Jewish people/leaders. Can we find those meaningful/logical actions and discussions?


(If you preach Islamic religious beliefs and practices to Jewish people today, they will reject you. So, you will have to figure out the steps that are required to correct their false beliefs. This is an extremely difficult task. You will have to give clear explanations in such a way where they can understand and convince themselves that their beliefs and practices are wrong. Even if you claim that God speaks to you and you take the Quran as proof, you cannot change their minds. God will have to intervene and show them that God is behind you and God is making this correction and it's not done by a person who claims that he communicates with God. This is why I see that meaningful/logical actions and discussions are required. Can we find this in the story of Jesus?

However, if God is indeed behind you, God will easily figure out the steps required to correct false beliefs of human beings. And if God was behind Jesus, we could expect to see the beliefs of Jewish people and leaders changing immediately. At least for a short. Can we see this happening till the word gets corrupted again?)

If we can't find it, how can we come to the conclusion that God who spoke to Jewish people once again appointed a prophet to correct these false beliefs and practices (or re-establish the true word of God)? Or is it that you explain this mystery by claiming God abandon all the Jewish leaders when Jesus was on Earth?


(If God exists, we could expect to see God respecting religious leaders since they represent God to us and since they spread the word of God by dedicating their lives. When Jesus was on Earth, Joseph Caiaphas was the high priest of Jerusalem. He was like God's representative to Jewish people. So, to correct these false beliefs, God will have to find a way to communicate with him and make him also understand what to preach and why the preaching of Jesus has the true word of God. If Joseph Caiaphas were a corrupted religious leader, God will explain Jewish people why they must reject Joseph Caiaphas. This is because for people to change their minds, they are looking for a convincing explanation. Can we see any of these events taking place?)


(At the end of the day, the events associated with the life of Jesus tell us that God has never taken any meaningful/logical actions or engaged in meaningful discussions to correct or merge different religious beliefs. This is what I see)


Then in the 7th century, we can see God working with prophet Muhammad for 22 years to establish Islamic religious beliefs and practices once again. But even though God worked with prophet Muhammad for 22 years, we still cannot see God taking any meaningful/logical actions and we cannot see God/prophet Muhammad engaged in meaningful/logical discussions to correct the false religious beliefs and practices of Jewish people, neither Christians—although God's actions ended up in creating these two religions. After creating three religions on Earth, we see God and angels going silent. I mean, even if you want to know the truth, you cannot contact God or angels at all. You have to rely on weak explanations given by people and books that are controversial.

(Imagine the situation when Jewish/Christian leaders and people hear people saying that God who communicated to them is now communicating with prophet Muhammad, however, God is saying that the earlier word is currupted. Christian and Jewish people would be baffled to hear the story, since God is not updating their leaders/people in any meaningful/logical way)

To help you understand the issue that I see here clearly, let me ask questions this way. Do you believe that sending revelations to Prophet Muhammad or to any prophet will help us to correct these false beliefs or will that be enough for Jewish and Christian people to know that their beliefs and practices are false? Will that help us to unite or merge these different religious beliefs? Do you think that meaningful discussions and logical actions are not required?

If required, can we find those meaningful/logical actions taken by God and the discussions God had to correct these false beliefs and practices over the period of 22 years when he was working with prophet Muhammad in the 7th century, so we can come to the conclusion that God indeed was making meaningful/logical efforts and had meaningful/logical discussions with people in order to merge different religious beliefs and to help us convince ourselves that our beliefs and practices are false (or for Jewish and Christian people to convince themselves that their religions belief and practices are false when the Quran was revealed to prophet Muhammad)?


If not, I'm I missing something here?

 

[Ümit]

Thanks all for your replies. I have responded to all your questions. It would have been great to see my entire post is being accepted. What I have mentioned in my posts are normal responses that you can expect to hear from people. If I have addressed the issues in another way, perhaps, I could have avoided the misunderstandings. Anyway, I don't see the below point explains the controversy logically.



Let me try to explain to you why. Let's say that Islamic religious practices and beliefs were taught to us 3000+ years ago. But we know that before Jesus became a prophet, this teaching ended up creating Judaism on Earth, and we also know that the followers of Judaism had unique beliefs and practices under their religion (Judaism). In other words, God's actions ended up creating Judaism, and Judaism can no longer be identified as Islamic religious beliefs and practices when Jesus was on Earth.

Under these circumstances, if God appointed Jesus as a prophet to preach Islamic beliefs and practices once again, you would know that Jesus would be rejected by Jewish people. In other words, this explanation helps us to understand the mystery behind why Jewish people rejected Jesus (people no longer believed in practices and beliefs that can be identified as Islamic beliefs and practices, so they rejected Jesus).

(Just imagine the situation where you preach Islamic beliefs and practices to Jewish people today. Will they accept or reject?)

Since God knows that his actions ended up creating Judaism on Earth, if God who spoke to Jewish people started communicating to them once again to correct these false beliefs and practices, Jesus/God will have to take meaningful actions and engage in meaningful/logical discussions with Jewish people/leaders. Can we find those meaningful/logical actions and discussions?

İf you see a man healing the sick...walking on water....make the blind see...would you accept his words or would you reject?
Jesus's as words were backed up with lots of miracles so it was pretty much impossible to ignore. So the logical/meaningful thing for the jews to do was to accept...but they rejected anyways.
What better proof can a prophet provide to prove his words?

 

[DanRaleigh]

İf you see a man healing the sick...walking on water....make the blind see...would you accept his words or would you reject?
Jesus's as words were backed up with lots of miracles so it was pretty much impossible to ignore. So the logical/meaningful thing for the jews to do was to accept...but they rejected anyways.
What better proof can a prophet provide to prove his words?

I'm not able to edit text since I'm a new member. Let me correct a statement that I made earlier, so you would understand my point of view clearly while answering you:

(Imagine the situation when Jewish/Christian leaders and people hear a follower of Prophet Muhammad say that God who communicated to them has appointed another prophet (prophet Muhammad), and God and prophet Muhammad is saying that the earlier word is corrupted. If so, Christian and Jewish people would be baffled to hear the story, since God is not updating their leaders/people in any meaningful/logical way)

People have been reporting their healing abilities throughout the history. And those people who managed to heal others, were trying to help skeptics understand the existence of the phenomenon ever since, however, skeptics never believed that healing is real. Let me take an example:

"Go to the Traveller office and make inquiry there, of some of these cures. Are not these facts before the world?"

"Mr. 'Miler. I will give you a fact. Captain Knight, of the steamer Lewiston, which runs between your city and Portland, had, some time ago, a passenger upon his boat, who had been sent to this city to have a palsied arm amputated. The captain suggested to this man that he should visit Dr. Greenwood, a healing medium. He did so, and in one hour’s time, that withered, palsied arm, which had become diseased, and which eight learned physicians had declared must be amputated, was made whole by simply laying on of hands, and the man used it, and it was as strong as ever. Dr. Greenwood is at No. 15 Tremont Street; and within a stone's throw of this building are men who can come in and testify that, by simply laying on of his hands, they have got up from sick—beds where they were prostrated. Go to the Traveller office and make inquiry there, of some of these cures. Are not these facts before the world?"

Source: Great Discussion of Modern Spiritualism, Between Prof. J. Stanley Grimes and Leo Miller, Esq p.74

We cannot come to a conclusion of this mystery even today, since no one managed to prove their healing powers in any convincing way in a scientific setting. However, I see that the healing phenomenon is real. Jesus, prophet Muhammad and even mediums (people who believe that they communicate with spirits) healed people. To help human beings to understand the truth, we must understand the psychology of human beings. What make us convince ourselves that this is the truth? The intelligence behind Abrahamic religions failed to address this.

 

[DanRaleigh]

We have seen supernatural acts even in the 19th century when spiritualism was establishing on Earth. Certainly, these strange events on Earth create massive moments. However, people who question these deeply find more questions than answers. Therefore, we could clearly see a movement that reject all these due to issues that they observe when coming to a conclusion. People simply don't know what to make out of these, since they cannot verify evidence in a convincing way:

"Charles L. Tweedale, an English vicar, has been so impressed with the importance of supernormal revelation, and, through his work among all sorts and conditions of men, so impressed with the conviction that a more intense and vital belief in the reality of life after death is one of the urgent needs of the times, that he has published a book, giving, first of all, the scriptural proofs of resurrection, and adding to these, psychic experiences of his own and of many acquaintances.

A careful study of the Bible, he declares, reveals a record of almost continuous supernormal experiences, and these experiences he has taken pains to classify under their proper heads, as : clairvoyance, levitation, strange sounds and supernormal lights, appearances of spirit hands and the touch of discarnate beings, automatic writing, sounds of music and other manifestations. All are very similar to the psychical experiences of today. I would like to add, a little more in detail, a few of the New Testament examples that are very indicative of the good that came to the early disciples through spiritual guidance."

Source: Spirit world and spirit life : descriptions received through automatic writing by Charlotte Dresser - (p. 207)

 

[Ümit]

I'm not able to edit text since I'm a new member. Let me correct a statement that I made earlier, so you would understand my point of view clearly while answering you:

(Imagine the situation when Jewish/Christian leaders and people hear a follower of Prophet Muhammad say that God who communicated to them has appointed another prophet (prophet Muhammad), and God and prophet Muhammad is saying that the earlier word is corrupted. If so, Christian and Jewish people would be baffled to hear the story, since God is not updating their leaders/people in any meaningful/logical way)

You will always have this problem. people will become sceptic when they did not witnessed something unnatural themselves. even in your suggestion, lets say "God did not sent Jesus(as) to Earth, but rather talked to high Jewish rabbis to update them"...even when those rabbis were updated...all other rabbis would just stop following them...they would become outcast as soon as they preach to burn the Thalmood, stop treating goyims as animals, that other races are equal to Jews, etc. etc.

But that is the whole point of believing...at some point, you have to make the choice believing or not believing. "Believing" meant for the Jews, to give up those fine rules they made up for themselves which created a lot of convienence for them, they were better than other races, etc...so they just chose not to give that up...no matter what.

I am sure some of the high rabbi's DID notice some remarkable miracles of Jesus(as) when he talked to people as a baby, when he walked on water, healed the sick and blind people etc. I mean he did not have just one miracle...his whole life was one big miracle...I am sure the Jews did witness at least some remarkable stuff...but they just choose to ignore.

People have been reporting their healing abilities throughout the history. And those people who managed to heal others, were trying to help skeptics understand the existence of the phenomenon ever since, however, skeptics never believed that healing is real. Let me take an example:

"Go to the Traveller office and make inquiry there, of some of these cures. Are not these facts before the world?"

"Mr. 'Miler. I will give you a fact. Captain Knight, of the steamer Lewiston, which runs between your city and Portland, had, some time ago, a passenger upon his boat, who had been sent to this city to have a palsied arm amputated. The captain suggested to this man that he should visit Dr. Greenwood, a healing medium. He did so, and in one hour’s time, that withered, palsied arm, which had become diseased, and which eight learned physicians had declared must be amputated, was made whole by simply laying on of hands, and the man used it, and it was as strong as ever. Dr. Greenwood is at No. 15 Tremont Street; and within a stone's throw of this building are men who can come in and testify that, by simply laying on of his hands, they have got up from sick—beds where they were prostrated. Go to the Traveller office and make inquiry there, of some of these cures. Are not these facts before the world?"

Source: Great Discussion of Modern Spiritualism, Between Prof. J. Stanley Grimes and Leo Miller, Esq p.74

We cannot come to a conclusion of this mystery even today, since no one managed to prove their healing powers in any convincing way in a scientific setting. However, I see that the healing phenomenon is real. Jesus, prophet Muhammad and even mediums (people who believe that they communicate with spirits) healed people. To help human beings to understand the truth, we must understand the psychology of human beings. What make us convince ourselves that this is the truth? The intelligence behind Abrahamic religions failed to address this.

These people are looking for evidences to prove religion is true....at that point you will always fail, because science does not cover the area of religion...if science would be able to prove religion is real, then the whole point of religion would be void. we came to Earth to find God on our own...to believe in God...if we could prove God exists, then this whole "life on Earth" would be pointless.
We should stop thinking that science is everything....science is just a human tool to understand the universe...it is an appoximation of the truth, not the absolute truth....as we develop ourselves, this approximation is getting better and better...but will never be enough to reach the absolute truth.

We have seen supernatural acts even in the 19th century when spiritualism was establishing on Earth. Certainly, these strange events on Earth create massive moments. However, people who question these deeply find more questions than answers. Therefore, we could clearly see a movement that reject all these due to issues that they observe when coming to a conclusion. People simply don't know what to make out of these, since they cannot verify evidence in a convincing way:

"Charles L. Tweedale, an English vicar, has been so impressed with the importance of supernormal revelation, and, through his work among all sorts and conditions of men, so impressed with the conviction that a more intense and vital belief in the reality of life after death is one of the urgent needs of the times, that he has published a book, giving, first of all, the scriptural proofs of resurrection, and adding to these, psychic experiences of his own and of many acquaintances.

A careful study of the Bible, he declares, reveals a record of almost continuous supernormal experiences, and these experiences he has taken pains to classify under their proper heads, as : clairvoyance, levitation, strange sounds and supernormal lights, appearances of spirit hands and the touch of discarnate beings, automatic writing, sounds of music and other manifestations. All are very similar to the psychical experiences of today. I would like to add, a little more in detail, a few of the New Testament examples that are very indicative of the good that came to the early disciples through spiritual guidance."

Source: Spirit world and spirit life : descriptions received through automatic writing by Charlotte Dresser - (p. 207)

Exactly...so did those high rabbis never witness at first hand any of those supernatural events? (sceptists are usually people who did not witness something themselves but hear some supernatural event from other...so they try to come up with a rational explanation...usually people who witness it themselves are not sceptic.)

 

[DanRaleigh]

You will always have this problem. people will become sceptic when they did not witnessed something unnatural themselves. even in your suggestion, lets say "God did not sent Jesus(as) to Earth, but rather talked to high Jewish rabbis to update them"...even when those rabbis were updated...all other rabbis would just stop following them...they would become outcast as soon as they preach to burn the Thalmood, stop treating goyims as animals, that other races are equal to Jews, etc. etc.

Exactly...so did those high rabbis never witness at first hand any of those supernatural events? (sceptists are usually people who did not witness something themselves but hear some supernatural event from other...so they try to come up with a rational explanation...usually people who witness it themselves are not sceptic.)

I'm not sure if you understand the issue that I'm pointing out. Let me explain this way. If someone performs miracles today and claims that the Quran doesn't have the word of God and if he further claims that the beliefs and practices of Muslim people are false, do you think that will be enough to change the minds of Muslim people/religious leaders?

It should be obvious to you that people don't change religious beliefs that easily, and that's because we truly believe that our conclusions are right. So people need convincing evidence to change. It's not logical to think that if God exists and if he speaks to us, he will fail to provide us convincing evidence since we are judging an intelligence who we think has created the entire universe and all types of beings in the universe.

If the religious belief of Christians and Jewish people are wrong, God will have to take meaningful actions and engage in meaningful discussions to correct them, since we look for evidence (this is common sense). However, we cannot see Prophet Muhammad was having any meaningful discussions with Christians and Jewish leaders/people. I'm I wrong here? This tells us that if God exists, he can't be the intelligence communicating with prophet Muhammad, since God should understand the human nature well.

(To make sense of this, think about it this way. Assume God appointed another prophet today. If so, what kind of actions he will have to take to correct our beliefs if our beliefs are false? It won't be an easy task. Sending revelations from time to time to a person cannot fix it. Performing miracles alone won't fix it. So, can we find those meaningful actions taken by God/ Prophet Muhammad? How can God fail to take any meaningful actions, if he indeed was communicating to us for 22 years?)

When we analyze the life story of Jesus, we still cannot see God taking any meaningful actions, if he indeed was communicating with Jesus. If someone claims that God exists, and he was communicating with Jesus and Prophet Muhammad, this is the result of his work:

Crusades (1095–1291) For two hundred years, European Christians tried to wrest control of the Holy Land from the Muslims. Perhaps 3 million people died in these wars.
Taiping Rebellion (1850–64) Twenty million died in a messianic uprising of Chinese Christians.
Panthay Rebellion (1855–73) A rebellion of Muslims in southeast China killed a million.
Hui Rebellion (1862–78) Another rebellion of Muslims in northwest China killed 640,000
Mahdi Revolt (1881–98) Five and a half million Sudanese died during this fundamentalist Muslim uprising.
Ukraine (1648–54) During a rebellion against Poland, Cossacks under Bogdan Chmielnicki massacred as many as 100,000 Jews and wiped out three hundred Jewish communities

The source of this book is "The Great Big Book of Horrible things." You could see these figures under the heading of "The Thirty Deadliest Religious Killings"

These figures are disturbing.

 

[Ümit]

I'm not sure if you understand the issue that I'm pointing out. Let me explain this way. If someone performs miracles today and claims that the Quran doesn't have the word of God and if he further claims that the beliefs and practices of Muslim people are false, do you think that will be enough to change the minds of Muslim people/religious leaders?

Yes and No.

No, only because:
God already communicated to us that Mohammad sas is the final prophet that comes to us and Islaam is the final version of the true religion. If that wasn't the case, then yes...if the religious leaders would witness someone talking to them as a baby, walked on water, healed the blind, raised people from their deaths...just like Isa(as) did...then yeah...that should be enough proof that person was telling the truth...unless of course those religious people were so corrupt in their ways so that they reject everything....but even if the religious leaders wouldn't change their mind because of their corruptness, there would be enough other people to stand up and follow the true path and find new religious leaders.

It should be obvious to you that people don't change religious beliefs that easily, and that's because we truly believe that our conclusions are right. So people need convincing evidence to change. It's not logical to think that if God exists and if he speaks to us, he will fail to provide us convincing evidence since we are judging an intelligence who we think has created the entire universe and all types of beings in the universe.

Normally no. but the prophets were no ordinairy people...each and everyone of them were highly reliable, gentle people, respected and accepted in the society. and then such unnatural miracles coming from such people should be convincing evidence enough. it's not logical to witness all those amazing miracles and then say..."thank you for the show but I still do not believe"...that is ignorance, nothing else.

If the religious belief of Christians and Jewish people are wrong, God will have to take meaningful actions and engage in meaningful discussions to correct them, since we look for evidence (this is common sense).

you cannot have meaningful discussion with corrupted people. they would resist for what it takes. They would ignore and deny for their own personal set of reasons....but the people who see the truth will stop following those corrupted leaders and find the true path...and so it happened. again, those performed miracles are evidence enough for it.

However, we cannot see Prophet Muhammad was having any meaningful discussions with Christians and Jewish leaders/people. I'm I wrong here? This tells us that if God exists, he can't be the intelligence communicating with prophet Muhammad, since God should understand the human nature well.

(To make sense of this, think about it this way. Assume God appointed another prophet today. If so, what kind of actions he will have to take to correct our beliefs if our beliefs are false? It won't be an easy task. Sending revelations from time to time to a person cannot fix it. Performing miracles alone won't fix it. So, can we find those meaningful actions taken by God/ Prophet Muhammad? How can God fail to take any meaningful actions, if he indeed was communicating to us for 22 years?)

Why would performing miracles wont fix it? "sending revelations from time to time to a person?" that illustrates how little you understand about the whole situation...don't forget that Mohammad was a well known individual in the society...everyone knew him as friendly, trustworthy, reliable, soft tempered, reasonable...and never lied...and of course that he was a simple person who never had anything to do with books because he was illiterate.
So, from such a person, who has no access to knowledge or whatever suddenly comes revelations, more than 600 pages, in high poetical arabic, and highly accurate words...that should be obvious that that cannot be fabricated from such a person...that should be logical to you.

When we analyze the life story of Jesus, we still cannot see God taking any meaningful actions, if he indeed was communicating with Jesus. If someone claims that God exists, and he was communicating with Jesus and Prophet Muhammad, this is the result of his work:

Crusades (1095–1291) For two hundred years, European Christians tried to wrest control of the Holy Land from the Muslims. Perhaps 3 million people died in these wars.
Taiping Rebellion (1850–64) Twenty million died in a messianic uprising of Chinese Christians.
Panthay Rebellion (1855–73) A rebellion of Muslims in southeast China killed a million.
Hui Rebellion (1862–78) Another rebellion of Muslims in northwest China killed 640,000
Mahdi Revolt (1881–98) Five and a half million Sudanese died during this fundamentalist Muslim uprising.
Ukraine (1648–54) During a rebellion against Poland, Cossacks under Bogdan Chmielnicki massacred as many as 100,000 Jews and wiped out three hundred Jewish communities

The source of this book is "The Great Big Book of Horrible things." You could see these figures under the heading of "The Thirty Deadliest Religious Killings"

These figures are disturbing.

So you are listing up wars to show us how messed up this world is...so what is the point you are making?
God did a terrible job by creating an unfair world?
Why did those people had to die a terrible deaths during those wars?
Why did those people deserve those sufferings?
If these are some of the questions in your head, then you still having trouble realizing why you are here on Earth at the first place.
It means, you still do not know what the purpose of life is...your life is meaningless...you have no goals to live for....that is highly disturbing I must say.

 

[DanRaleigh]

Normally no. but the prophets were no ordinairy people...each and everyone of them were highly reliable, gentle people, respected and accepted in the society. and then such unnatural miracles coming from such people should be convincing evidence enough. it's not logical to witness all those amazing miracles and then say..."thank you for the show but I still do not believe"...that is ignorance, nothing else.

Normally no. but the prophets were no ordinairy people...each and everyone of them were highly reliable, gentle people, respected and accepted in the society. and then such unnatural miracles coming from such people should be convincing evidence enough. it's not logical to witness all those amazing miracles and then say..."thank you for the show but I still do not believe"...that is ignorance, nothing else.

If someone who has all these qualities performs miracles and claims that Allah is not the God or Yahweh is not the God, I won't be surprised to hear some people telling him that "thank you for the show but I still do not believe." If you go to an advanced community and say that their religion is corrupted, they will expect to hear a good explanation from you, if not people would reject you.

you cannot have meaningful discussion with corrupted people. they would resist for what it takes. They would ignore and deny for their own personal set of reasons....but the people who see the truth will stop following those corrupted leaders and find the true path...and so it happened. again, those performed miracles are evidence enough for it.

If God decided to help Christian and Jewish people (or skeptics) understand the truth, what can a corrupted leader(s) do to stop him?

(Although, some rabbis changed their beliefs, we cannot see God/prophet Muhammad was taking any meaningful actions that were needed to make a change in religious beliefs in our society. This is the point that I'm making. 22 years, is a long time. So, if God had a wish and if he was taking actions to correct these beliefs, then we should be able to see history reporting the actions taken by God and Prophet Muhammad)

So you are listing up wars to show us how messed up this world is...so what is the point you are making?
God did a terrible job by creating an unfair world?
Why did those people had to die a terrible deaths during those wars?
Why did those people deserve those sufferings?
If these are some of the questions in your head, then you still having trouble realizing why you are here on Earth at the first place.
It means, you still do not know what the purpose of life is...your life is meaningless...you have no goals to live for....that is highly disturbing I must say.

For someone to blame God/Allah, that person will have to believe in the existence of God first. Since I don’t find convincing evidence there, I don’t find a reason to worry. So, I was simply stating some facts to show my viewpoint in the reply.

 

[Ümit]

Normally no. but the prophets were no ordinairy people...each and everyone of them were highly reliable, gentle people, respected and accepted in the society. and then such unnatural miracles coming from such people should be convincing evidence enough. it's not logical to witness all those amazing miracles and then say..."thank you for the show but I still do not believe"...that is ignorance, nothing else.

If someone who has all these qualities performs miracles and claims that Allah is not the God or Yahweh is not the God, I won't be surprised to hear some people telling him that "thank you for the show but I still do not believe." If you go to an advanced community and say that their religion is corrupted, they will expect to hear a good explanation from you, if not people would reject you.

If I was a well known respected member of that community and by declaring their Gods false I raised Elvis from the dead or Hitler or 2Pac, then I am pretty sure there would be enough people who would believe me. Maybe not the leaders...because they would lose everything...so they have a personal reason to resist...but I wouldn't need them anyways...it's the people themselves I want to have on my side not the corrupted leaders.

If God decided to help Christian and Jewish people (or skeptics) understand the truth, what can a corrupted leader(s) do to stop him?

nothing

(Although, some rabbis changed their beliefs, we cannot see God/prophet Muhammad was taking any meaningful actions that were needed to make a change in religious beliefs in our society. This is the point that I'm making. 22 years, is a long time. So, if God had a wish and if he was taking actions to correct these beliefs, then we should be able to see history reporting the actions taken by God and Prophet Muhammad)

What would you consider as meaningful actions? please elaborate.

Also what is this 22 years you are talking about? are you referring to the time Allah took to reveal the entire Quraan? in 22 years?
You think Allah has been trying to communicate with us for 22 years?

Well your wrong...Allah communicated with us from the very beginning when Adam(as) roamed the Earth untill now...He never lost contact with us.

For someone to blame God/Allah, that person will have to believe in the existence of God first. Since I don’t find convincing evidence there, I don’t find a reason to worry. So, I was simply stating some facts to show my viewpoint in the reply.

So?
I could list up the ingredients of a mc Wopper as a fact if you know what I mean.

Those facts are only meaningfull if it is relevant.
So, in what way is the list of religious wars relevant to this discussion?
What does these information prove to you? what is your viewpoint.

If you want to look at the issue from scientific perspective, then the whole matter is quite simple:
Science does not cover spirituality...there is no evidence of the existence of a creator...and never will be...
But the absence of evidence for something is not a proof something does not exist...you should remember that.

Also if we stay at the side of science:
We have a given (out of the blue): the Quraan.
Explain the origin of it. Who is the Author...when is it written and how?
If you can find scientific answers to those questions...you will get your proof whether God exists or not.

 

[DanRaleigh]

If I was a well known respected member of that community and by declaring their Gods false I raised Elvis from the dead or Hitler or 2Pac, then I am pretty sure there would be enough people who would believe me. Maybe not the leaders...because they would lose everything...so they have a personal reason to resist...but I wouldn't need them anyways...it's the people themselves I want to have on my side not the corrupted leaders.

I will answer toyour questions soon. Can I know your viewpoint on this as well? Assume you arethe God(God exists) and you created the universe and beings in the universe. Ifso, do you think you would have also created an eternal hell for a finite crime? I will never doit, and I can certainly say that so many human beings out there will say the same. So for me, it shows that there are so many human beings out therewho are more compassionate than God, if God exists. I see that as another fundamental issue.

How can we see human beings are more compassionate than God? What'syour viewpoint on this, and can I know the explanation given by God to create an eternal hell?