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Halima
02-09-2006, 01:39 PM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove

We grant the children the right to be children until they are old enough to make good choices themselves. Marriage is a serious matter, and children needs the time to grow up before becoming someones wife/husband. Here, it is also normal for girls to finnish their education before getting married.



You do know that the majority of kids in highschool has already had sex out of wedlock right? What causes this? I don't know. What are the consequences? HIV, Hepatitis, Herpes. A girl not only has to worry about about getting pregnant but she also has to worry about her life aswell! Of course, marriage is a serious matter but what the serious matter is when a girl does sex out of wedlock. I don't understand the western society. I girl cannot get married at nine years old but when a girl is 15 she can have sex. When the girl becomes 18 she is considered an adult. I am considered an adult but I wouldn't ever move out on my parents and try to prove to them that I can live on my own. you say it is normal for girls to finish their education before they get married then why do they have sex before they are married? Wouldn't that be the last think on this earth one would do after they are married? Today you have people preaching about why so many teen girls and boys have AIDS. Go figure! You have girls running around promiscuous (out of wed lock) have not even finished their education and they are waiting by chance to get pregnant. Is this what we have to wait for until reality slaps them on the face?
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Christian_dove
02-09-2006, 02:27 PM
Originally Posted by Halima
You do know that the majority of kids in highschool has already had sex out of wedlock right? What causes this? I don't know. What are the consequences? HIV, Hepatitis, Herpes. A girl not only has to worry about about getting pregnant but she also has to worry about her life aswell! Of course, marriage is a serious matter but what the serious matter is when a girl does sex out of wedlock. I don't understand the western society. I girl cannot get married at nine years old but when a girl is 15 she can have sex. When the girl becomes 18 she is considered an adult. I am considered an adult but I wouldn't ever move out on my parents and try to prove to them that I can live on my own. you say it is normal for girls to finish their education before they get married then why do they have sex before they are married? Wouldn't that be the last think on this earth one would do after they are married? Today you have people preaching about why so many teen girls and boys have AIDS. Go figure! You have girls running around promiscuous (out of wed lock) have not even finished their education and they are waiting by chance to get pregnant. Is this what we have to wait for until reality slaps them on the face?
There are very few people having Aids here, so I don't know where you got that idea... You have to remember that not having sex before marriage is something your religion teaches you, but not all people are religious.. We don't grow up with lots of laws and regulations, we are free to do what we please as long as we don't hurt others. Sex is an act that is considered joyful by many people, and some people enjoy it without taking the laws of the quoran or the bible into consideration at all. This is not forbidden. You seem to think that life in western world is only sinful, but this is not true. People are allowed to do as they wish, some are very religious and some are not. Is this bad? In my country polls have shown that more than 80 % of the population are very happy. We feel free, we can travel wherever we want, we have good social welfare systems to take care of sick/poor people, good wages, etc. The way you practise your religion is the way we did 100 years ago..
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Malsidabym
02-09-2006, 04:23 PM
You do know that the majority of kids in highschool has already had sex out of wedlock right?
Are you sure of this? I went to school in a western country and yes many had sex, but not a majority. Most other faiths also teach that it is wrong to have sex out of wed-lock. Also, many people without religion still have high moral values and refrain until marriage. I think it may seem like 'most' because we notice the bahavior of people who "do" things more than people that don't.
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Halima
02-10-2006, 03:33 AM
Brother Fi, no one is ignoring Ansar. I didn't mean to hijack the thread Brother Ansar. Sorry! :X


Peace.

Originally Posted by Christian_dove
There are very few people having Aids here, so I don't know where you got that idea... You have to remember that not having sex before marriage is something your religion teaches you, but not all people are religious.. We don't grow up with lots of laws and regulations, we are free to do what we please as long as we don't hurt others. Sex is an act that is considered joyful by many people, and some people enjoy it without taking the laws of the quoran or the bible into consideration at all.



It is only society that tells people what to do. For example, it is common that in a typical western society a father frowns/disowns his daughter once he finds out she becomes pregnant. In society she is generally looked down upon..by why does she do it anyways? In Islam..we will not only get disowed but this is punishable by death!



This is not forbidden. You seem to think that life in western world is only sinful, but this is not true. People are allowed to do as they wish, some are very religious and some are not. Is this bad? In my country polls have shown that more than 80 % of the population are very happy.



I dont think everything fully in the west is sinful. I live in the west if i think that then I myself would be sinning. I just think that the western society is too loose. Too many risk takers. Therefore one has to be street-smart. I myself am not street-smart. I am pampered by protective fathers/brothers that guide me bit by bit as I grow older.



We feel free, we can travel wherever we want, we have good social welfare systems to take care of sick/poor people, good wages, etc. The way you practise your religion is the way we did 100 years ago..



We have the same enjoyment you people have. Wether it be socially or traveling we get just as much fun as you there is no obstacle in our way o prevent us from having a good time like other people.





Originally Posted by malsidab
Are you sure of this? I went to school in a western country and yes many had sex, but not a majority. Most other faiths also teach that it is wrong to have sex out of wed-lock. Also, many people without religion still have high moral values and refrain until marriage. I think it may seem like 'most' because we notice the bahavior of people who "do" things more than people that don't.



Thousands of years ago a women's demeanor was far different from today. Today they are less conservative and quite seemingly more rebellious than ever. Thousands of years ago there were no such things as AIDS-and that reminds me about the Amish people. They are very secluded peopel with their lives isolated from today's modern society. I must say their lives are have alot of similarties with Islam. Father finding his daughter a husband..do agree that women have been alot less conservative then thousands of years ago?
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Malaikah
02-10-2006, 04:09 AM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove
There are very few people having Aids here, so I don't know where you got that idea... You have to remember that not having sex before marriage is something your religion teaches you, but not all people are religious.. We don't grow up with lots of laws and regulations, we are free to do what we please as long as we don't hurt others. Sex is an act that is considered joyful by many people, and some people enjoy it without taking the laws of the quoran or the bible into consideration at all. This is not forbidden. You seem to think that life in western world is only sinful, but this is not true. People are allowed to do as they wish, some are very religious and some are not. Is this bad? In my country polls have shown that more than 80 % of the population are very happy. We feel free, we can travel wherever we want, we have good social welfare systems to take care of sick/poor people, good wages, etc. The way you practise your religion is the way we did 100 years ago..
Your opinion here is flawed since you ignore the negative effects that this has on society as a whole. Having free sex spread disease, it results with females falling pregnant (some times not knowing who the father is), and when she falls pregnant out side of wedlock, who is going to help her rasie the child? the fathers do not always recognise that the child is their own. Having such cheap moral standards brings corruption to the society, and also results with women neing veiwed more cheaply.

We feel free, we can travel wherever we want, we have good social welfare systems to take care of sick/poor people, good wages, etc. The way you practise your religion is the way we did 100 years ago..
you havent specified where you come from, but i know for fact that the US also has the highest rape rate. what freedom. your society sounds very superficial if that is the most important thing worth mentioning.
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-10-2006, 04:21 AM
:sl: Thread split from the discussion on the young marriage of Aisha rd. If anyone has a more suitable title for this thread, feel free to suggest.
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HeiGou
02-10-2006, 02:41 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
you havent specified where you come from, but i know for fact that the US also has the highest rape rate. what freedom. your society sounds very superficial if that is the most important thing worth mentioning.
Actually that is not true. The US has a fairly low rape rate. What it has is many rapes. That is a different claim - the US has a large population. Of course it has many rapes. But as a percentage of the over all population, the rape rate is low. Compare it to South Africa.

It is hard to make comparisons. Muslim countries tend not to report crime figures at all. Even when they do, rape is not reported to the police. We know through surveys that domestic violence is high in Muslim countries. It is likely that rape rates are high too. Certainly Muslim countries have high risk factors. Many young men who are unmarried. Many young men who are unemployed. A culture that does not encourage reporting and hence low to neglible risk of conviction. A culture that blames women. A friend of my told me that Egyptian newspapers are full of reports of gang rapes that take place in Cairo - usually girls who are lured to empty apartments, but of course there are no convictions. You can see what you might describe as "pre-rape" behaviours in many Muslim countries - persistent overtly sexual harrassment of women who walk down the street for instance.

No culture is perfect. But at least the US tries to do something about it.
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mizan_aliashraf
02-10-2006, 05:04 PM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove
There are very few people having Aids here, so I don't know where you got that idea... You have to remember that not having sex before marriage is something your religion teaches you, but not all people are religious.. We don't grow up with lots of laws and regulations, we are free to do what we please as long as we don't hurt others. Sex is an act that is considered joyful by many people, and some people enjoy it without taking the laws of the quoran or the bible into consideration at all. This is not forbidden. You seem to think that life in western world is only sinful, but this is not true. People are allowed to do as they wish, some are very religious and some are not. Is this bad? In my country polls have shown that more than 80 % of the population are very happy. We feel free, we can travel wherever we want, we have good social welfare systems to take care of sick/poor people, good wages, etc. The way you practise your religion is the way we did 100 years ago..


We are free to do as we please?

Exactly, you follow the desires of your soul. That is not like a christian - surely
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azim
02-10-2006, 05:17 PM
I'm about to post off-topic (unless someone changes the name to "Western Society") so I apologise in advance.

We feel free, we can travel wherever we want, we have good social welfare systems to take care of sick/poor people, good wages, etc. The way you practise your religion is the way we did 100 years ago..
You talk of these things as if they are alien to Muslims.

Muslims put no restrictions on travelling, so I don't know where that comes into it.

Social Welfare was first instigated 1400 years ago by Abu Bakr, the FIRST ruler after the Prophet. It's a principal based on Quranic values and Islamic ideals - so yes, enjoy these fruits, but dont forget that Islam is the tree that bore them. (NB: The UK only established Social Welfare 50 years ago, and in America, Social Welfare is about as effective as the rhythm method).

Good wages - the only reason Muslims have bad wages is because they tend to live in countries exploited by Western capitalism. Islam demands giving fair dues to the worker and if you look at the examples of many Caliphates throughout history, this was quite rigourously enforced.

Peace.
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mahdisoldier19
02-10-2006, 08:34 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Actually that is not true. The US has a fairly low rape rate. What it has is many rapes. That is a different claim - the US has a large population. Of course it has many rapes. But as a percentage of the over all population, the rape rate is low. Compare it to South Africa.

It is hard to make comparisons. Muslim countries tend not to report crime figures at all. Even when they do, rape is not reported to the police. We know through surveys that domestic violence is high in Muslim countries. It is likely that rape rates are high too. Certainly Muslim countries have high risk factors. Many young men who are unmarried. Many young men who are unemployed. A culture that does not encourage reporting and hence low to neglible risk of conviction. A culture that blames women. A friend of my told me that Egyptian newspapers are full of reports of gang rapes that take place in Cairo - usually girls who are lured to empty apartments, but of course there are no convictions. You can see what you might describe as "pre-rape" behaviours in many Muslim countries - persistent overtly sexual harrassment of women who walk down the street for instance.

No culture is perfect. But at least the US tries to do something about it.

Salam Alaikam,

Im Sorry you must be Mistaken

US Does have the highest Rape

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap


Lets look at more Statistics First

#1 Rape USA : 89,110

#1 Total Crimes USA : 23, 677, 800

#1 Car Theft USA : 1,147,300

Oh Lets look at Burgalaries:

#1 On the list USA : 2,099,700

Lets Look at the country Last on the list

#55 Burgalaries Saudi Arabia : 11

On Wait a minute the guy Thinks Ya Know USA is not high In teen Pregnancy

Teen Pregnancy

# 1 USA 494,357
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Ghazi
02-10-2006, 08:42 PM
Salaam

Lets keep it cival
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Ansar Al-'Adl
02-10-2006, 08:43 PM
:sl: br. mahdisoldier
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Im Sorry you must be the Most Ignorant and dumbest person on this board.

How much of an Idiot Are you?
These insults are uncalled for and against forum rule #9. Please refrain from resorting to such attacks. If you feel that someone else is likewise infringing forum rules, please use the 'report bad post' button.

:w:
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mahdisoldier19
02-10-2006, 08:44 PM
Salam Alaikam

I Apologize i get overheated when people spread falseness wont happen again
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czgibson
02-10-2006, 08:47 PM
Greetings,

Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
I'm Sorry you must be the Most Ignorant and dumbest person on this board.

US Does have the highest Rape

How much of an Idiot Are you? I have to result to name calling because thats for the lowest of people that spread lies. 89,110 In USA

Lets look at more Statistics First

#1 Rape USA : 89,110
I don't know anything about this subject, but it's clear to me that name-calling is uncalled for.

I notice that the statistics you quote are for recorded crimes. Therefore, HeiGou's charge of unreported crimes still stands - unless you've got an answer for that, of course.

Peace
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mahdisoldier19
02-10-2006, 08:54 PM
Salam Alaikam

Well i have answer for everything friend these days

It is mentioned i take statistics courses, If anyone wants to debate on statistics, everyone knows That No statistic is Right. Some are nowhere Near right, and some are just blindly close.

For instance, In New york a group of people wanted to measure the amount of people that visit a mosque. So they went in and saw a few and thought well maybe if we times these people by 3, we could get an overall amount. So basically i dont expect these statistics to be soooo Accurate, but for a country as the USA. To be so highly civilized and technological advances. Im sure they can conjure up proper statistics. As for the unreported crimes. Thats all over the USA. If you noticed a few articles that were published most recently. A Man in Lauderdale FL. Was in prison and saw that out of the police cases he found his name to be booked in for crimes he never committed. And was never charged for or even mentioned to him by investigators.

Just because their Recorded crimes, does not intentionaly mean they're wrong. I dont want to contradict myself , what im trying to say is basically Statistics arent right sometimes and others they're not even close. But, im sure the USA has a strong statistics team working around the clock. As does the other rest of the world. Some statistics may be off some maybe completely off but to get an efficient judgement lets look at burglary. Why is it the highest in the USA and Seemingly to believe the Lowest in a country of Sharia Law SA? is the implentation of the law more civil than the constitution of the USA?
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czgibson
02-10-2006, 09:26 PM
Greetings mahdisoldier19,

I'm not questioning the validity of the US crime statistics, simply pointing out that you (still) haven't answered HeiGou's point about crimes going unreported in Middle Eastern countries.

Peace
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mahdisoldier19
02-10-2006, 10:22 PM
Salam Alaikam

And im stressing Crime goes un reported everywhere. There is no true way to count them all perfectly.

Peace and blessings upon you my friend
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azim
02-10-2006, 10:53 PM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings mahdisoldier19,

I'm not questioning the validity of the US crime statistics, simply pointing out that you (still) haven't answered HeiGou's point about crimes going unreported in Middle Eastern countries.

Peace
A similar claim that unreported crimes occur in the US can be made - although I accept that it is a trend that poorer states usually report less crime for a number of reasons.

Although - India has a population of over 1 billion - it's reported rates are at 15,000.

America has a population of 250 million - it's reported rates stand at 90,000.

How much leeway do unreported rapes have? Not this large.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_percap

In the above link it shows rapes per capita. The US lies at position 9, most countries on that list above it are small, poor, lawless with severe troubles (with the exception of Canada and Austrailia).

The point is that these developed, so called civilised, countries often have major problems with regard to moral standards.

For example, in the New York blackout - 3 million crimes were commited in one night.

In other countries electricity shuts off periodically for hours on end, yet such furious crime spees don't occur.
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Smok
02-10-2006, 11:07 PM
salaam

The problem is that You as muslims watch this in different way. For people in western society it is not a problem if 17 years old girl has sex or 21 years girl has children and no husband. For You it is something terrible. For us it is normal.
So don't try to judge us using Your morality. We have absolutely different point of view. For people in Europe it is imposiible to punish woman who betrayed husband and had sex with other man. For You it is a crime.
So if You want to judge You have to understand european culture and point of view first.
Remember - it is our culture. If You don't like it - don't "use" it :)
It is something like these caricatures of Muhammad. In Europe most people can't understand why do You make so big problem because of that. And You can't understand why people printed it.

And one more thing. Don't believe in all numbers You found - numbers about rapes, crimes etc. Remember about so called "black number". This is number of crimes that were not reported to the police. In non western countries many people don't report rapes because of shame. More restrictive society has bigger "black number" of rapes.

maa salama
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mahdisoldier19
02-10-2006, 11:11 PM
Salam Alaikam

Well first i live In New York, USA. So i think i know about the culture. I dont know any parent that tells there children to have sex at 17. I dont see where its normal. I think your just assuming the wrong things which leads me to the conclusion that your not an adult. Offcourse its something terrible, If you know a person that enjoyed going through a divorce and being stuck with kids that i think that person has some serious issues. Thats my point of view, out of all the people i met that have had divorces, they hated every bit of it. Especially girls 21 who have children and expect to take care of them by themselves. Thats not Culture Thats Having sex without proper protection. i can go on and on and on i take courses in culture. its not part of the culture, but peoples ignorance.
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Christian_dove
02-10-2006, 11:43 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
Your opinion here is flawed since you ignore the negative effects that this has on society as a whole. Having free sex spread disease, it results with females falling pregnant (some times not knowing who the father is), and when she falls pregnant out side of wedlock, who is going to help her rasie the child? the fathers do not always recognise that the child is their own. Having such cheap moral standards brings corruption to the society, and also results with women neing veiwed more cheaply.
I don't ignore the negative effects that the freedom to have sex causes. Of course there are problems related to this, but do not for a second ignore the fact that norwegian parents are not satanic worshipers who enjoy making their own children into sinfull monsters. Most have morale standards and carry dialogues with their children about many things, including sex.

Single mothers receives financiall support from our welfare system. Norwegian authorities wants us to be productive and have as many children as possible (yet there are to few children being born). Each time you have a new one, you get more support. Can you imagine the amount of money a woman from the third world with 5 children gets? We are probably talking about more than US3000 a month, at least when the children are small (barnetrygd, kontantstøtte, overgangsstønad, barnebidrag...) and she doesn't even have to work. And if she lives alone she receives even more. My sister did this, she got more than 4000US a month, living alone with 3 kids. If you have a job and have to take a long break due to pregnancy, you are STILL getting payed as if you were working.

And there are very few countries on this planet with less corruption than us. It may sound greeneyed, but I think most other countries are far worse off than us.
you havent specified where you come from, but i know for fact that the US also has the highest rape rate. what freedom. your society sounds very superficial if that is the most important thing worth mentioning.
US is on a planet of their own. You can't compare them with anyone. I am scandinavian.
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Malaikah
02-11-2006, 12:29 AM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Salam Alaikam,

Im Sorry you must be Mistaken

US Does have the highest Rape

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap

How much of an Idiot Are you? I have to result to name calling because thats for the lowest of people that spread lies. 89,110 In USA

Lets look at more Statistics First

#1 Rape USA : 89,110
:sl:

actually that other guy was correct, the statistics you provided are missleading becauase they show only the number of crimes, which is influenced by the population size. when looking at rate of rape per capita, it is clear that the US does not have the highest rape rate per capita. It comes 9th, and south africa is first. "Muslim" countries tend to show up in the high 50's, and 60's. (position in rank)

Id also like to point out that is these so called muslim countries actually actually implimented islam law (shariah), then the rates will most likely be way lower.
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Christian_dove
02-11-2006, 07:57 AM
Originally Posted by azim
A similar claim that unreported crimes occur in the US can be made - although I accept that it is a trend that poorer states usually report less crime for a number of reasons.

Although - India has a population of over 1 billion - it's reported rates are at 15,000.

America has a population of 250 million - it's reported rates stand at 90,000.

How much leeway do unreported rapes have? Not this large.

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap_percap

In the above link it shows rapes per capita. The US lies at position 9, most countries on that list above it are small, poor, lawless with severe troubles (with the exception of Canada and Austrailia).

The point is that these developed, so called civilised, countries often have major problems with regard to moral standards.

For example, in the New York blackout - 3 million crimes were commited in one night.

In other countries electricity shuts off periodically for hours on end, yet such furious crime spees don't occur.
I can assure you, that list doesn't tell us the truth at all. There are several baltic states with less rapes than scandinavian countries, which is absurd. We have lots of problems with citizens of the former Sovjet Union (Balticum), they are infamous for their crime raides in Europe.
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E'jaazi
02-11-2006, 01:11 PM
To all Muslims:


What is interesting here, is that those who are not Muslims state that they have the freedom to do as they wish. This is a true statement. But at the same time, they seem to think that we are trying to impose our moral system upon them, when in fact, the moral system we speak about comes from Allah (God) and is the same moral system that both Christians & Jews are commanded to follow.

Listen to the reasoning they use. I would like them to answer one question: Despite the fact that you are free to choose, when the Day of Judgement has come, and you are standing before the Almighty in Judgement, and you are asked why you chose to disobey, live by your own whims and desires, ignore what you knew to be true, and chose the way of man's laws over the laws of God, are you really going to repeat to the Almighty the things you have said here? Is that what you are going to tell Him? Interesting!
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Snowflake
02-11-2006, 03:01 PM
Christian_Dove: Single mothers receives financiall support from our welfare system. Norwegian authorities wants us to be productive and have as many children as possible (yet there are to few children being born). Each time you have a new one, you get more support. Can you imagine the amount of money a woman from the third world with 5 children gets?
Yup! The tax payer has to fund children who should be the responsibility of absent fathers. Apart from the tax payer not being happy about this, the British government introduced the Child Support Agency to make fathers pay up. To me that doesnt look like a system that is happily supporting single mothers.

At least muslims in third world countries don't have to cough up for other peoples so-called 'freedom'.
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justahumane
02-11-2006, 03:18 PM
Listen to the reasoning they use. I would like them to answer one question: Despite the fact that you are free to choose, when the Day of Judgement has come, and you are standing before the Almighty in Judgement, and you are asked why you chose to disobey, live by your own whims and desires, ignore what you knew to be true, and chose the way of man's laws over the laws of God, are you really going to repeat to the Almighty the things you have said here? Is that what you are going to tell Him? Interesting!
Very well said brother blackjubba.

Lets see what is going to be the response of muslims who dont fail to call names when it comes to someone who has difference of opinion with them. What makes them think that they are anything better than those who have done the sin of violating the laws they believe in.

One interesting thing about the muslims. Talk to them individually, everyone will swear by ALLAH that he want to live under shariyah laws, litrally all minus exceptions. But see the result at the end of the day.....

My apology if someone feels bad.

Thanks.
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Snowflake
02-11-2006, 03:47 PM
Sadly, I must say that you are right. If muslims lived according to shariah law, there wouldn't be some many misconceptions about Islam. And there is no excuse for name-calling at all. Please muslims brothers and sisters, while we are defending our religion, lets also show examples of how a muslim should conduct himself.
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shanu
02-11-2006, 04:10 PM
Christian dove? Umm isnt sex nt allowed in ur religion too? Umm i think u gt the facts wrong, do u really thick americans are very happy wid their free society? So y r u guys having regular visit to the psychologists. Becos of free sex, ppl dun even bother to mmarry they just move. wen they feel like it they move out. cHildren born out of this relationship suffer a great deal. N ppl they have no family to fall back to, no religion to fall back to , nothing. As humans we need to hold on to smtg, its our nature. And 4 ur info, aisha consumatted her marriage at 15, nt at nine
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mahdisoldier19
02-11-2006, 04:17 PM
Originally Posted by cheese
:sl:

actually that other guy was correct, the statistics you provided are missleading becauase they show only the number of crimes, which is influenced by the population size. when looking at rate of rape per capita, it is clear that the US does not have the highest rape rate per capita. It comes 9th, and south africa is first. "Muslim" countries tend to show up in the high 50's, and 60's. (position in rank)

Id also like to point out that is these so called muslim countries actually actually implimented islam law (shariah), then the rates will most likely be way lower.
Salam Alaikam

The sister tried to show how it was per capita, but i dont think you understood my point. My point was the overall statistics of the nation.
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Anette
02-11-2006, 04:30 PM
Originally Posted by Halima
I don't understand the western society. I girl cannot get married at nine years old but when a girl is 15 she can have sex. When the girl becomes 18 she is considered an adult. ... you say it is normal for girls to finish their education before they get married then why do they have sex before they are married? Wouldn't that be the last think on this earth one would do after they are married? ...You have girls running around promiscuous (out of wed lock) have not even finished their education and they are waiting by chance to get pregnant. Is this what we have to wait for until reality slaps them on the face?
In my country it is not sure that you get married at all. This is not considered a thing that you have to do or is expected to do. The most of our girls and boys often goes to school until they have finished university at the age of 25-27. Due to our social benefits you then ought to work a couple of year so you can financially support a child. This is what happens when you have a society that is depending on two working parents.

But there are many different views about sex anyway. In the worst form you have parent teach their children that sex an love is two different things and that it is nothing wrong with having sex without having feelings for each other. But this is far from the common view. In my view this is very wrong. Our problem is not if having sex before or after marriage but having sex without feelings and love "for fun". Sad but true.

But in our society it has gone far to long. You cannot go outside without meeting things like this: today when I got to the bus stop a big advertise showing an almost naked woman’s breath with the text "I love boops" it was an ad for a store selling clothes. I really dislike this. This is so wrong. Even if you choose a way that do not includes acceptance for this kind of exposure you cannot choose. The common space is occupied with this. And it making an impact in what our children thinks is right and expected. There is a reason why many girls are suffering from anorexia in our society.

I would not have anything against going "back" some steps in this "development".

But I do not believe that small children, nine years old should get married. I do believe that love is a major factor in a life together with someone. The main thing according to me should not be the sex issue, but the love issue.
Reply

Christian_dove
02-11-2006, 05:43 PM
Originally Posted by Nadia Waheed
Yup! The tax payer has to fund children who should be the responsibility of absent fathers. Apart from the tax payer not being happy about this, the British government introduced the Child Support Agency to make fathers pay up. To me that doesnt look like a system that is happily supporting single mothers.

At least muslims in third world countries don't have to cough up for other peoples so-called 'freedom'.
Tax payers? I wasn't talking about britain. Norway has an oil fund that consists of more than 166 billion (!) US dollars. The costs of imigrants on welfare are a lot higher than the costs of children living with their single mums or dads... Not that I want to set those two groups up against each other. And excuse me, absent fathers have to pay child support here, and they pay a lot.
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shanu
02-11-2006, 05:54 PM
Yes they can pay money to support them financially? Well do u know how many children who do not have the father figure of the family suffer. Can the absent father pay up to support the child psychologically? Can the child grow up well? Will the child turn out as well as achild from a proper family. There are only some exceptionate cases. These type of "child support measureS" SHOUld only be used in extreme situations, People nowdays become absent in their family and use money to shut people up? Is it such a good idea. Im nt saying the child support measure is nt good, im just saying that it should be used in extreme situations, so fathers dont dare become absent in their families.
Single moms have to work hard too to support their kids, and this means she spends little time with the child, and how can the child grow up in a good environment?
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Anette
02-11-2006, 06:22 PM
Originally Posted by shanu
Single moms have to work hard too to support their kids, and this means she spends little time with the child, and how can the child grow up in a good environment?
The sad thing is that you do not have to be a single mother. In my country both parents are expected to work hard to support their kids and spend little time with the children. It's a shame.
Reply

Kittygyal
02-11-2006, 06:27 PM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Salam Alaikam,

Im Sorry you must be Mistaken

US Does have the highest Rape

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap

How much of an Idiot Are you? I have to result to name calling because thats for the lowest of people that spread lies. 89,110 In USA

Lets look at more Statistics First

#1 Rape USA : 89,110

#1 Total Crimes USA : 23, 677, 800

#1 Car Theft USA : 1,147,300

Oh Lets look at Burgalaries:

#1 On the list USA : 2,099,700

Lets Look at the country Last on the list

#55 Burgalaries Saudi Arabia : 11

On Wait a minute the guy Thinks Ya Know USA is not high In teen Pregnancy

Teen Pregnancy

# 1 USA 494,357
yes u are very true dere :statisfie
Reply

Christian_dove
02-12-2006, 05:12 AM
Originally Posted by shanu
Yes they can pay money to support them financially? Well do u know how many children who do not have the father figure of the family suffer. Can the absent father pay up to support the child psychologically? Can the child grow up well? Will the child turn out as well as achild from a proper family. There are only some exceptionate cases. These type of "child support measureS" SHOUld only be used in extreme situations, People nowdays become absent in their family and use money to shut people up? Is it such a good idea. Im nt saying the child support measure is nt good, im just saying that it should be used in extreme situations, so fathers dont dare become absent in their families.
Single moms have to work hard too to support their kids, and this means she spends little time with the child, and how can the child grow up in a good environment?
Woman here have been working for the last 40 years or so. Children go to school or kindergarten in the daytime. Weekends most parents stay home with their kids and there are several vacations where parents can be with their kids. We just had christmas, now in february we have 1 week winter holiday (same in october), soon is easter (1 week ++), summer holiday (1 month), etc. It's really not a problem...
And most fathers see their children on a regular basis, there are rules about this. Normally the children spend every second weekend and one 1 day a week with the parent they are not staying with. Somtimes more (1 week at each parent), as parents make their own agreements. The less the fathers see their kids however, the more they have to pay in child support. They are punnished for not seeing their kids...
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songinwind
02-12-2006, 05:39 AM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove
There are very few people having Aids here, so I don't know where you got that idea... You have to remember that not having sex before marriage is something your religion teaches you, but not all people are religious.. We don't grow up with lots of laws and regulations, we are free to do what we please as long as we don't hurt others. Sex is an act that is considered joyful by many people, and some people enjoy it without taking the laws of the quoran or the bible into consideration at all. This is not forbidden. You seem to think that life in western world is only sinful, but this is not true. People are allowed to do as they wish, some are very religious and some are not. Is this bad? In my country polls have shown that more than 80 % of the population are very happy. We feel free, we can travel wherever we want, we have good social welfare systems to take care of sick/poor people, good wages, etc. The way you practise your religion is the way we did 100 years ago..


Are you speaking of USA Dove????:rollseyes Do you by chance live in the country?? Not trying to be "smart" or anything.....But where are you getting your facts...........Divorce is the highest ever...Aids is most certinly is high here....and have u been to wal-mart lately?....Last time i went, the half naket people shocked me.....some so very young, standing right beside parents....and as far as the welfare---Thats a joke---ask any elder person...as I have seen and talked to them,,,and even bought them medication...Its my opinion and mine only---But USA needs to feel ashamed for the treatment of its elder and the children....
I am a American, and its very sad ..was you aware that some children, the only meal they have is "free lunch"...and even that they are trying to stop...and as far as sex....Rich, poor, religious, good upbring, loving parents--non-caring parents....none of this means one thing.....The children here are out of controle...and sad to say. but many of the parents are also.
Than you have the rise in rent.utilites, food, gas...all things have rased in prices, so families are forced to have both working parents..which leaves the kids. free.....80% happy??:rollseyes ..This can't be the usa...........peace to you....
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Christian_dove
02-12-2006, 06:01 AM
Originally Posted by songinwind
Are you speaking of USA Dove????:rollseyes Do you by chance live in the country?? Not trying to be "smart" or anything.....But where are you getting your facts...........Divorce is the highest ever...Aids is most certinly is high here....and have u been to wal-mart lately?....Last time i went, the half naket people shocked me.....some so very young, standing right beside parents....and as far as the welfare---Thats a joke---ask any elder person...as I have seen and talked to them,,,and even bought them medication...Its my opinion and mine only---But USA needs to feel ashamed for the treatment of its elder and the children....
I am a American, and its very sad ..was you aware that some children, the only meal they have is "free lunch"...and even that they are trying to stop...and as far as sex....Rich, poor, religious, good upbring, loving parents--non-caring parents....none of this means one thing.....The children here are out of controle...and sad to say. but many of the parents are also.
Than you have the rise in rent.utilites, food, gas...all things have rased in prices, so families are forced to have both working parents..which leaves the kids. free.....80% happy??:rollseyes ..This can't be the usa...........peace to you....

Norwegian, we don't have wal mart, thank God. Americans have the gouvernment and the welfare system that they deserve... Norway is the world's best place to live... Oil revenues and a focus on social welfare politics have placed Norway at the top of the United Nations' so-called Human Development Index 4 years in a row.
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shanu
02-12-2006, 09:08 AM
Woman here have been working for the last 40 years or so. Children go to school or kindergarten in the daytime. Weekends most parents stay home with their kids and there are several vacations where parents can be with their kids. We just had christmas, now in february we have 1 week winter holiday (same in october), soon is easter (1 week ++), summer holiday (1 month), etc. It's really not a problem...
And most fathers see their children on a regular basis, there are rules about this. Normally the children spend every second weekend and one 1 day a week with the parent they are not staying with. Somtimes more (1 week at each parent), as parents make their own agreements. The less the fathers see their kids however, the more they have to pay in child support. They are punnished for not seeing their kids...


The life in america is really very weird. Isnt it? Spending time with ur family is such a burden that people choose holidays and feel that it is enough. Do you know what a family is? Or r u too one of the victims that never got a chance to learn what is a family. Family is abt spending time together. When you are sad abt smtg, you get home you see your mom, N talk to your dad, play games with him, have fights with your siblings over the silliest things, and then talk about ur ambitions with them after that. Sitting with ur grandmother and drinking tea, and learn about the traditional things she used to do. Work is not everything in life.

You say its not really a problem, because you are not the child that suffered. I teach part time at a student care, i see children everyday. And this particular child who has nobody to hold on to in his family, Its really painful to see his tears and how he winthdraws withhin himself. And you say its ok?
Why is it that the children have to be nomads and stay one week with one parent. A girl in my place ran away becuase of that. When she stays one week with her mom, her mom says dont mix too much with ur dad, And when she stays with her dad, her dad brings strange woman to her house. And when both parents meet they fight. This affected the girl so much, she ran away, and when the authorities found her, she says how nice will it be if i have both parents at home just like other children? Is this really ok. It may be ok 4 u as an adult? But is it ok 4 a child? Divorce is a nightmare 4 a kid? Do u know that?

The less the fathers see their kids however, the more they have to pay in child support. They are punnished for not seeing their kids.

A family is a respnsiblity. Why is it so difficult 4 u americans to be with kids? This punishment is good idea. But all this can be avoided if they werent absent in the 1st place. What im trying to say is, divorce 4 extreme reasons not just becos u dont get along. If u cany get along, try to get along, compromise a little. Love and life is about that. If one partner is angry the other is to be quiet, and then talk out the matter nicely. Divorce may nt affect the parents that much christian dove, but the kids? Its really sad? I feel that money cant pay up everytg, the best is t avoid divorce, so you can be with ur child, see them grow up. If u have kids, u ave to be responsible 4 them. No amount of money can replace a parent!

There is nothing wrong in working. People work to provide a happy environent 4 their family. Dont defeat the purpose, if your work eats in the time you spend with your children. The child support is good, it teaches lesson to those who are absent. But what i really am talking abt is, avoiding the whole situation in the 1st place. Isnt that better?

Even in islam, if you want to divorce you are given 3 months with no pressure from anyone so you can think whether ur decsion is good or bad. You are nt be under any influence, no lawyers nothing. So ur decsion will be solely made by you. And if u really feel divorce is necessary, then you are to support them even if u divorced them. Divorce is made really difficult in islam so as to avoid such a situation. Because divorce is a really bad thing
Reply

Christian_dove
02-12-2006, 01:40 PM
MEMBER HAS BEEN WARNED FOR VIOLATING FORUM RULE #9

Originally Posted by shanu

The life in america is really very weird. Isnt it? Spending time with ur family is such a burden that people choose holidays and feel that it is enough.
As I allready said, I am not american. Spending time with children is not a burden. You think fathers have been home with their kids always? Hello, use your head! Before people were hunters and fishers, fathers were gone for weeks or months. Nobody complained because thats how they got food. You think that parents dont spend time with their kids in the afternoons and weekends? Stop being so imensely fanatic about this.


Do you know what a family is?
Yes, i have kids, do you? Do you know what a family is? If clutching to your mother until you are way above 30 waiting for her to find a cousin you can marry is your idea of an family I have no problem with that. I however, moved into my own apartment when I was 16. It was great!


Or r u too one of the victims that never got a chance to learn what is a family. Family is abt spending time together. When you are sad abt smtg, you get home you see your mom, N talk to your dad, play games with him, have fights with your siblings over the silliest things, and then talk about ur ambitions with them after that. Sitting with ur grandmother and drinking tea, and learn about the traditional things she used to do. Work is not everything in life.
So you think these things are not normal amongst westerners? I spent plenty of time with my grand when she was alive, and my kids spend time with their grandmums. Oh my goodness, you are really brainwashed. There are some mental clinics with programs that will get you out of your psychosis you know...
You say its not really a problem, because you are not the child that suffered. I teach part time at a student care, i see children everyday. And this particular child who has nobody to hold on to in his family, Its really painful to see his tears and how he winthdraws withhin himself. And you say its ok?
So, what you are saying is that because of this ONE child with lousy parents that you know of, then all the parents in the west is contantly trying to avoid being with their kids and are just generally bad?

Why is it that the children have to be nomads and stay one week with one parent. A girl in my place ran away becuase of that. When she stays one week with her mom, her mom says dont mix too much with ur dad, And when she stays with her dad, her dad brings strange woman to her house.
Again, that is ONE example. I can name plenty that didn't have a problem with this. There is no country on the face of the earth were everyone is happy and everything is perfect. And it is common knowledge that one does not talk bad about the other parent to ones own child. This will create conflict within the child and is a very bad thing to do. It is close to child abuse and parents doing so here actually risk being released of their rights to see the child.
And when both parents meet they fight. This affected the girl so much, she ran away, and when the authorities found her, she says how nice will it be if i have both parents at home just like other children? Is this really ok. It may be ok 4 u as an adult? But is it ok 4 a child? Divorce is a nightmare 4 a kid? Do u know that?
Yes, she had stupid parents, not my fault. You think it would have been better for her having her parents living togheter hearing them fight EVERY SINGLE DAY? Hello...? Parents need to learn what is the best for their kids, fighting while the kids hearing it is wrong, and most parents will avoid this.
The less the fathers see their kids however, the more they have to pay in child support. They are punnished for not seeing their kids.

A family is a respnsiblity. Why is it so difficult 4 u americans to be with kids? This punishment is good idea. But all this can be avoided if they werent absent in the 1st place. What im trying to say is, divorce 4 extreme reasons not just becos u dont get along. If u cany get along, try to get along, compromise a little. Love and life is about that. If one partner is angry the other is to be quiet, and then talk out the matter nicely. Divorce may nt affect the parents that much christian dove, but the kids? Its really sad? I feel that money cant pay up everytg, the best is t avoid divorce, so you can be with ur child, see them grow up. If u have kids, u ave to be responsible 4 them. No amount of money can replace a parent!
So what you say is that people who are divorced haven't tried anything, they just suddenly moves? THey enjoy going through the traumas of divorce? How naive are you really? In Norway, if you have kids, you have to go through 3 counsellings to try and sort things out before you can even ask for a divorce. My own parents got divorced. They decided to wait until I was adult until they did it, however, I disapproved of them. I think they should have gotten their divorce at least 5 years before they did, in stead of living in a cold marriage with no love. You think us kids didn't notice? Kids are so smart, the see and understand a lot more than adult thinks. If they see a married couple (their parents) who are constantly fighting they will think that this is the correct thing to do in a marriage, and then bring it along to their own marriage.
There is nothing wrong in working. People work to provide a happy environent 4 their family. Dont defeat the purpose, if your work eats in the time you spend with your children. The child support is good, it teaches lesson to those who are absent. But what i really am talking abt is, avoiding the whole situation in the 1st place. Isnt that better?
Yes, but perhaps you should know a little bit more about what you actually are talking about before opening your mouth? How about fathers who are abusive? Now I know that amongst muslims it isn't really easy for a woman to break out from an abussive marriage, some stay in these marrieges for YEARS, with suffering for themselves AND the kids, you think that is any better?

Even in islam, if you want to divorce you are given 3 months with no pressure from anyone so you can think whether ur decsion is good or bad. You are nt be under any influence, no lawyers nothing. So ur decsion will be solely made by you. And if u really feel divorce is necessary, then you are to support them even if u divorced them. Divorce is made really difficult in islam so as to avoid such a situation. Because divorce is a really bad thing
3 months?? Wow... Did you know that here it is 2 YEARS!!!? It will take 2 years to get a divorce.
And I am not american, how many times do I have to say it.. And I am really sorry that I am so harsh but you really annoy me. Off course divorce is a bad thing, but guess what? Most kids grow up to be good people even if their parents was divorced. It is not good, in fact it is bad, but let's not make it sound a lot worse than it really is.
Reply

shanu
02-12-2006, 05:57 PM
1stly divorce is certainly frowned upon in Islam. And I would love to correct you as you have misunderstood me greatly, or maybe you hadn’t bothered to learn the correct procedures of islam as I’ve assumed earlier that you may have. It’s a sad fact that you know little of our religion and you talk as you have learnt a great deal.
I have one request that you should read through this with much patience so that you would not make the grave error of talking without having background knowledge of Islam my dear brother.

Divorce as a last option:

Although divorce being allowed in Islam is a sign of the lenience and practical nature of the Islamic legal system, keeping the unity of the family is considered a priority for the sake of the children. For this reason, divorce is always a last choice, after exhausting all possible means of reconciliation. For example, Allah addresses men asking them to try hard to keep the marriage, even if they dislike their wives:
.
.. live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and God brings about through it a great deal of good.
Surah 4 Verse 19

Also the following verse is addressed to women asking them the same thing:

If a wife fears cruelty or desertion on her husband's part, there is no blame on them if they arrange an amicable settlement between themselves; ...
Surah 4 Verse 128

The very 1st part of divorce is to propose it verbally. That is the man says “Talaq” 3 times. Talaq here refers to Divorce or I divorce you. And Divorce can be initiated by the husband or by the wife. The husband has the right to pronounce the words of divorce (talaq) to his wife. He can also give her a statement of divorce in writing. The wife can seek divorce from her husband through khul`, but if he refuses to grant her request then she can seek the dissolution of marriage through the court of law.
A husband who wants to divorce his wife should use the words of divorce with full awareness after much thinking and consideration. Using the words of divorce in haste or anger is not right. The proper procedure is to give divorce when a woman is not pregnant and is not going through her monthly menstrual cycle. Divorce can take place by saying one time "I have divorced you" (talluqtuki) or "You are divorced" (anti taliq). After this the women should spend the time of her `iddah.
.The basic rule is that divorce must be uttered with full consciousness and without any coercion. If a person pronounced the words of divorce to his wife, in a fit of anger, while he lost all control over himself or due to the influence of intoxicants which he sinfully consumed, or he was forced by someone else to do so, then in all these cases his words of divorce are null and void and have no effect
In other words, your intention of divorce must be clear, and this words must be said after much thinking and consideration. Words which are thrown out of anger, or under the influence of alcohol or under the influence of others will only make the statement of divorce invalid.
And if he decide to proceed on with the divorce, he must know that after divorce he will be responsible to provide her maintenance during her `iddah and if there are any children in the family then he will be responsible for their expenses. Thus to grant her that right equally with the husband while she has no financial obligation is unfair and unjust. The wife can, however, divorce her husband if her husband gave her that right either at the time of marriage or afterwards.
Now after this part, come the 3 months waiting period where CHRISTIAN DOVE has clearly misunderstood what I had to say. The procedure of divorce in Islam is such as to encourage reconciliation where possible. After divorce the woman should wait three monthly cycles during which her husband remains responsible for her welfare and maintenance. He is not permitted to drive her out of the house during this period. She has been advised not to leave the house of the divorcing husband, in order to enhance the chances of reconciliation, as well as to protect her right of sustenance during the three months waiting period. The main purpose of this waiting period is to clarify whether the divorced wife is or is not expecting a child. Its second use is as a cooling-off period during which the relatives and other members of the family or of the community may try to help towards a reconciliation and better understanding between the partners. The Qur'an says:
"And if you fear a breach between the two, then appoint judge from his people and a judge from her people; if they both desire agreement, Allah will effect harmony between them, surely Allah is Knowing, Aware." (4:35).
If they are reconciled they may resume the marriage relations at any time within the waiting period, whereupon the divorce is automatically revoked. If further trouble arises and divorce is pronounced a second time, the same procedure is followed. Only if the matter reaches a third divorce does it become irrevocable. The wife is then to leave the house and is free after three monthly cycles to marry another man if she wishes. The first husband is not then permitted to remarry her unless she has in the meantime married another man and been divorced in usual legal manner.
So u see, it doesn’t take just 3 months for a divorce, this 3 months is ONLY a waiting period whereby, the husband and the wife continue to live together in the same house so as to encourage them to get together again. And chances of getting back together is high, as the couples are close when they live in the same house, So its not really that easy for a divorce is it?
Now even after this period, they both feel they really need to divorce, and then only the divorce proceedings begin. Islam never gives way to rash decisions, this 3 months period is given to them so they can sit down and think in sober minds whether it was really a right step and they can get back easily together within this 3 months.
And if they still want a major separation, the divorce proceedings will go on. The third divorce falls in the third category, because they cannot go back to one another, till after the wife ‘happens’ to marry someone else, then ‘happens’ to get divorced by him. In this case, she can go back to her first husband. Such a tough rule was made as a punishment and a way of preventing people from misusing this tolerant ruling of permitting divorce. The word ‘happens’ is parenthesized because the woman's new marriage and divorce should come naturally without planning, as many people might do to legalize her return to the first husband!
Do you think divorce in islam is as easy as buying a sweet. Yes its not as long as 2 years nor is it very short.. 2 years in fact is very long. 1stly, in a western society during this 2 years, the couples are not usually living in the same house, Chances of getting back together is quite low actually. And its really unfair on the woman’s part of the husband is a wife beater and she has to wait TWO whole years to get away from him? And I hope I have cleared your misconception about the 3 months? Its not that easy to abandon woman in islam.
Next time dont mock without learning, please if you dont like us, dont stick to the forum and vomit out ur hate. Its only making urself ridicuolous as you can see we dont mock yours. The reason being that Our beloved Isa is involved in your religion, And we believe in one thing. You follow ur belief, i follow mine. I shall not believe in what you believe and you shall not believe in what i believe, Peace on u Christian Dove
Reply

shanu
02-12-2006, 06:03 PM
Woman has all rights to come out of abusive marriages. Islam never encourages a woman to live with a man who abuses her. She can go to court. I even once read a case, where a muslim woman filed a divorce against her abusive husband, and the court actually gave her the rights to punish him the way he abused her, so as to teach other abusive husbands a lesson. I really hope you would read some useful books next time. Another thing about divorce is inheritence

Right to Inheritance
Another right of the Muslim woman which is a part of Islamic law is the right to inherit property. The method of division of inheritance is clearly laid down in the Qur'an and the general rule is that man gets double. This may if taken in isolation from other legislation appear to be unfair; however, it must be remembered that in accordance with the verse of the Qur'an quoted earlier, men are charged with the maintenance of all the women and children in their family, and therefore their necessary obligations of expenditure are far higher than those of women. The half-share that a woman inherits may therefore be considered a generous one since it is for herself alone. Any such money or property which a woman owns or any business which she runs is entirely her own and her husband has no right to any of it.

So, please do some research. I am only being patient with you as my religion asks me to. So i hope you would return us the same respect. Peace on u!
Reply

Anette
02-12-2006, 07:06 PM
Originally Posted by shanu
Another right of the Muslim woman which is a part of Islamic law is the right to inherit property. The method of division of inheritance is clearly laid down in the Qur'an and the general rule is that man gets double.
Actually this is something we read about in our History class. It was from the Muslims the western woman got rights about ineherit poperty. Before that western women got nothing. :)
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azim
02-12-2006, 07:25 PM
Christian_dove: Your last post was very offensive and uncessarily dereogatory.

Yes, i have kids, do you? Do you know what a family is? If clutching to your mother until you are way above 30 waiting for her to find a cousin you can marry is your idea of an family I have no problem with that. I however, moved into my own apartment when I was 16. It was great!
That bit especially borderlines on racist and is well into prejudice.

I hope I don't have to read such bigoted comments again.
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shanu
02-12-2006, 07:53 PM
he is making fun of the indian concept.and worst most of his facts are fabricated. Its better than choosing any tom D!ck or harry n den divorcing him ;D. C'mon parents nowdays look at his background whether he can support us financially, and we get to look at the way he behaves to see if he suits our character. In this way both sides are happy? The duties of a child is to please their parent, no parent will want to see their child slip down the drain. We dont depend on our parents to get us married off CHRISTIAN DOVE, we arent that lame. We do it out of respcet as they have given much pain in bringing us to earth, and by giving them the honour in helping us choose da suitable partner we are respecting them and putting them in a special position.In other words we are showing that we have not 4gotten them just because we are grown up and independant, and we are trying to tell them that their decsions and opinions are still very much important to us We believe that we need blessings of our parents in every occasion whether its marriage or a birthday, its nt that we clutch to our parents as u have mentioned. we do it Out of love. U should watch more indian movies, and u see the grand weddings, and the happy tears in the parent's eye. Like they say the donkey never knows the smell of camphor. its an old indian saying ;D
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Christian_dove
02-12-2006, 08:17 PM
Originally Posted by azim
Christian_dove: Your last post was very offensive and uncessarily dereogatory.



That bit especially borderlines on racist and is well into prejudice.

I hope I don't have to read such bigoted comments again.
Racism? He he... My wife is african, I am white, our kids are mixed. You think I am a racist? That would surprise anyone who knows me.
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azim
02-12-2006, 08:28 PM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove
Racism? He he... My wife is african, I am white, our kids are mixed. You think I am a racist? That would surprise anyone who knows me.
It's borderline racist - you're making offensive comments on prejudiced (and innaccurate) views of another persons culture. It's definately bigoted, close to racist.

PS: Having a spouse of another race doesn't really prove a person doesn't hold prejudiced views btw - I'm sure you don't, however that argument never convinces me.
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Christian_dove
02-12-2006, 08:38 PM
Originally Posted by shanu
he is making fun of the indian concept.and worst most of his facts are fabricated. Its better than choosing any tom D!ck or harry n den divorcing him ;D. C'mon parents nowdays look at his background whether he can support us financially, and we get to look at the way he behaves to see if he suits our character. In this way both sides are happy? The duties of a child is to please their parent, no parent will want to see their child slip down the drain. We dont depend on our parents to get us married off CHRISTIAN DOVE, we arent that lame. We do it out of respcet as they have given much pain in bringing us to earth, and by giving them the honour in helping us choose da suitable partner we are respecting them and putting them in a special position.In other words we are showing that we have not 4gotten them just because we are grown up and independant, and we are trying to tell them that their decsions and opinions are still very much important to us We believe that we need blessings of our parents in every occasion whether its marriage or a birthday, its nt that we clutch to our parents as u have mentioned. we do it Out of love. U should watch more indian movies, and u see the grand weddings, and the happy tears in the parent's eye. Like they say the donkey never knows the smell of camphor. its an old indian saying ;D
I am not making fun of any "indian" concept, if you enjoy living the way you do, that is fine. And if you are a muslim, I doubt that you live the same way many other (non-muslim) Indians do. The thing I am making fun of (if anything... It wasn't my intention) would have to be the fact that you talk very(!) much about how sinfull we are and the way we live in my country and the west. And my guess is that you are pretty young and do not really know very much about our way of living, only what you have heard and perhaps read in newspapers. I may not know much of your way either, but at least I have been to many countries in Asia/South East Asia, and I also got to see some of the indian culture that is highly present in Trinidad & Tobago, in the caribbean. Good food! I think that the way you take care of your families is great. You do it better than us. But you have to understand that there are many reasons as to way we do things different from you, and why our families are not so close as yours. In your culture the children are a resource for any parents. It is (from what I know) normal that the children, after they grow up will take care of the elder/parents in the family, provide food, money etc, when they are to old too work. They are prepared to do this by their parents.

Here, when people are old, they get payed every moth even if they are no longer working. It's not much, but as many old people have allready what they need, house, car, etc, it's enough. They don't need their kids to provide with these things, not money, food, or anything, etc. And the health care is good, people live longer, they stay more healthy, not needing so much help. Etc. So the children grow more independent and free, knowing their parents have what they need, and they focus mostly on themselves and their education, etc.

Thats one reason we are not so close to our families. Me, living without my parents, I am glad. No way I want them to snoop around in my life, I like to spend my time with my kids, and it's nice when grandma and grandpa comes to visit. But to have them around me all the time? I would have gone nuts! :)
Reply

Christian_dove
02-12-2006, 08:43 PM
Originally Posted by azim
Christian_dove: Your last post was very offensive and uncessarily dereogatory.



That bit especially borderlines on racist and is well into prejudice.

I hope I don't have to read such bigoted comments again.
That was not a racist remark. It was irony. I really hope you know the difference!
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Christian_dove
02-12-2006, 08:49 PM
Originally Posted by azim
It's borderline racist - you're making offensive comments on prejudiced (and innaccurate) views of another persons culture. It's definately bigoted, close to racist.

PS: Having a spouse of another race doesn't really prove a person doesn't hold prejudiced views btw - I'm sure you don't, however that argument never convinces me.
Prejudiced? Me?? Did you actually read her post at all??? How about these, what would you call them? Opinions!???:

The life in america is really very weird. Isnt it?

Spending time with ur family is such a burden that people choose holidays and feel that it is enough.

Do you know what a family is? Or r u too one of the victims that never got a chance to learn what is a family.

A family is a respnsiblity. Why is it so difficult 4 u americans to be with kids?
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HeiGou
02-12-2006, 09:10 PM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Im Sorry you must be Mistaken

US Does have the highest Rape

http://www.nationmaster.com/graph-T/cri_rap

How much of an Idiot Are you? I have to result to name calling because thats for the lowest of people that spread lies. 89,110 In USA
Well however much of an idiot I am I am not such an idiot I confuse the number of rapes with the rape rate. As I specifically and clearly said, the United States has many rapes. It has a large population. What it has is a relatively lowly rape rate. I am not mistaken.

Lets look at more Statistics First

#1 Rape USA : 89,110
Sure. Now compare with the Rapes per capita (ie the rape rate)

#1 South Africa 1.19538 per 1,000 people
#2 Seychelles 0.788294 per 1,000 people
#3 Australia 0.777999 per 1,000 people
#4 Montserrat 0.749384 per 1,000 people
#5 Canada 0.733089 per 1,000 people
#6 Jamaica 0.476608 per 1,000 people
#7 Zimbabwe 0.457775 per 1,000 people
#8 Dominica 0.34768 per 1,000 people
#9 United States 0.301318 per 1,000 people

As I said, the United States has a fairly low rape rate.

#1 Total Crimes USA : 23, 677, 800
Again, big population. Let's look at the rate.

#1 Dominica 113.822 per 1,000 people
#2 New Zealand 105.881 per 1,000 people
#3 Finland 101.526 per 1,000 people
#4 Denmark 92.8277 per 1,000 people
#5 Chile 88.226 per 1,000 people
#6 United Kingdom 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#7 Montserrat 80.3982 per 1,000 people
#8 United States 80.0645 per 1,000 people
#9 Netherlands 79.5779 per 1,000 people
#10 South Africa 77.1862 per 1,000 people

Not so bad. I am surprised by Finland. And this data is from 1998-2000. The crime rate in the US has been dropping rapidly for years now.

#1 Car Theft USA : 1,147,300
#1 Australia 6.92354 per 1,000 people
#2 Denmark 5.92839 per 1,000 people
#3 United Kingdom 5.6054 per 1,000 people
#4 New Zealand 5.45031 per 1,000 people
#5 Norway 5.08143 per 1,000 people
#6 France 4.9713 per 1,000 people
#7 Canada 4.88547 per 1,000 people
#8 Italy 4.19755 per 1,000 people
#9 United States 3.8795 per 1,000 people
#10 Ireland 3.69796 per 1,000 people

Oh Lets look at Burgalaries:

#1 On the list USA : 2,099,700
And look where the US is on a per capita basis

#1 Australia 21.7454 per 1,000 people
#2 Dominica 18.7892 per 1,000 people
#3 Denmark 18.3299 per 1,000 people
#4 Estonia 17.4576 per 1,000 people
#5 Finland 16.7697 per 1,000 people
#6 New Zealand 16.2763 per 1,000 people
#7 United Kingdom 13.8321 per 1,000 people
#8 Poland 9.46071 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada 8.94425 per 1,000 people
#10 South Africa 8.89764 per 1,000 people
#11 Montserrat 8.24323 per 1,000 people
#12 Iceland 8.11156 per 1,000 people
#13 Switzerland 8.06303 per 1,000 people
#14 Slovenia 7.93734 per 1,000 people
#15 Czech Republic 7.24841 per 1,000 people
#16 Hungary 7.15849 per 1,000 people
#17 United States 7.09996 per 1,000 people
#18 France 6.11634 per 1,000 people
#19 Ireland 5.73755 per 1,000 people

Lets Look at the country Last on the list

#55 Burgalaries Saudi Arabia : 11
Saudi Arabia is incapable of producing accurate figures. These are meaningless.

On Wait a minute the guy Thinks Ya Know USA is not high In teen Pregnancy

Teen Pregnancy

# 1 USA 494,357
What is wrong with teen pregnanacy?
Reply

azim
02-12-2006, 09:12 PM
Prejudiced? Me?? Did you actually read her post at all??? How about these, what would you call them? Opinions!???:
None of what she said was a direct attack on you. Your comments were offensive, bigoted and unecessary. It was obvious you were quite worked up in the post so I'm sure it wasn't a representation of your actual beliefs but the comments you made were still more offensive than anything anyone has said in this discussion so far.
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azim
02-12-2006, 09:14 PM
Saudi Arabia is incapable of producing accurate figures. These are meaningless.
Crime and rape is very low in Saudi Arabia. All because you don't want to accept such information doesn't mean you can simply pass it off as untrue.
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HeiGou
02-12-2006, 09:16 PM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Well first i live In New York, USA. So i think i know about the culture. I dont know any parent that tells there children to have sex at 17. I dont see where its normal.
The irony is that this site is full of threads about girls who have sex at 17. Or younger. Of course they tend to do so within the bounds of a proper Islamic marriage.
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Ghazi
02-12-2006, 09:41 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
The irony is that this site is full of threads about girls who have sex at 17. Or younger. Of course they tend to do so within the bounds of a proper Islamic marriage.
Salaam

Care to give links to these threads.
Reply

shanu
02-13-2006, 05:32 AM
The thing I am making fun of (if anything... It wasn't my intention) would have to be the fact that you talk very(!) much about how sinfull we are and the way we live in my country and the west
Actually i didnt say that u guys are sinful, and i didnt rant and rave abt it. I was just pointing out facts. I was just pointing how alien our concept is to urs thats all. Whether ur sinful or not is up to god. Im not that young lol, in fact am old enough. Marrying a person from a another race doesnt prove that u arent prejudiced, its the way you talk and think abt a another race or group that shows whether ur a racist or not. Talking abt racism, im marrying a palestinian, their culture is alien to mine, yet i embrace their way of thinking whther i like it or not. Not all the fingers in our hand is the same, just like that different cultures just act different. So we have to accept them in order to have peace and harmony. If you like our food, i'll mail u some :)
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mahdisoldier19
02-13-2006, 03:56 PM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Well however much of an idiot I am I am not such an idiot I confuse the number of rapes with the rape rate. As I specifically and clearly said, the United States has many rapes. It has a large population. What it has is a relatively lowly rape rate. I am not mistaken.



Sure. Now compare with the Rapes per capita (ie the rape rate)

#1 South Africa 1.19538 per 1,000 people
#2 Seychelles 0.788294 per 1,000 people
#3 Australia 0.777999 per 1,000 people
#4 Montserrat 0.749384 per 1,000 people
#5 Canada 0.733089 per 1,000 people
#6 Jamaica 0.476608 per 1,000 people
#7 Zimbabwe 0.457775 per 1,000 people
#8 Dominica 0.34768 per 1,000 people
#9 United States 0.301318 per 1,000 people

As I said, the United States has a fairly low rape rate.



Again, big population. Let's look at the rate.

#1 Dominica 113.822 per 1,000 people
#2 New Zealand 105.881 per 1,000 people
#3 Finland 101.526 per 1,000 people
#4 Denmark 92.8277 per 1,000 people
#5 Chile 88.226 per 1,000 people
#6 United Kingdom 85.5517 per 1,000 people
#7 Montserrat 80.3982 per 1,000 people
#8 United States 80.0645 per 1,000 people
#9 Netherlands 79.5779 per 1,000 people
#10 South Africa 77.1862 per 1,000 people

Not so bad. I am surprised by Finland. And this data is from 1998-2000. The crime rate in the US has been dropping rapidly for years now.



#1 Australia 6.92354 per 1,000 people
#2 Denmark 5.92839 per 1,000 people
#3 United Kingdom 5.6054 per 1,000 people
#4 New Zealand 5.45031 per 1,000 people
#5 Norway 5.08143 per 1,000 people
#6 France 4.9713 per 1,000 people
#7 Canada 4.88547 per 1,000 people
#8 Italy 4.19755 per 1,000 people
#9 United States 3.8795 per 1,000 people
#10 Ireland 3.69796 per 1,000 people



And look where the US is on a per capita basis

#1 Australia 21.7454 per 1,000 people
#2 Dominica 18.7892 per 1,000 people
#3 Denmark 18.3299 per 1,000 people
#4 Estonia 17.4576 per 1,000 people
#5 Finland 16.7697 per 1,000 people
#6 New Zealand 16.2763 per 1,000 people
#7 United Kingdom 13.8321 per 1,000 people
#8 Poland 9.46071 per 1,000 people
#9 Canada 8.94425 per 1,000 people
#10 South Africa 8.89764 per 1,000 people
#11 Montserrat 8.24323 per 1,000 people
#12 Iceland 8.11156 per 1,000 people
#13 Switzerland 8.06303 per 1,000 people
#14 Slovenia 7.93734 per 1,000 people
#15 Czech Republic 7.24841 per 1,000 people
#16 Hungary 7.15849 per 1,000 people
#17 United States 7.09996 per 1,000 people
#18 France 6.11634 per 1,000 people
#19 Ireland 5.73755 per 1,000 people



Saudi Arabia is incapable of producing accurate figures. These are meaningless.



What is wrong with teen pregnanacy?
Well out of all those statistics, Not one country Is under Sharia Law

thats point number 1

Point number 2, i meant the United States as a whole

Point number 3, if you do it by capita offcourse youll achieve different results, some areas are much safer than others

Point number 4, I see the united states atleast on the top 10, and at 1 at the top 20. Where do i see a Sharia law country on that list?
Reply

HeiGou
02-13-2006, 04:14 PM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Well out of all those statistics, Not one country Is under Sharia Law

thats point number 1
1. Point me to any country that is under Sharia law.

2. Point me to any country that is under Sharia law that produces decent statistics.

As I said, the problem with virtually all Third World countries is that their statistics are useless. There is an especially serious problem with some countries that also treat crime figures as national secrets. All the Muslim majority countries I can think of fall into one or both categories.

Point number 2, i meant the United States as a whole
A rate is a rate is a rate. It does not matter if it is applied to the US as a whole.

Point number 3, if you do it by capita offcourse youll achieve different results, some areas are much safer than others
Well no. If you do it per capita you will find out how many crimes are committed per person in the US - it is the raw figure divided by the over all population to give an average. Otherwise how can you compare a big country like the US with a small one like Bermuda?

Point number 4, I see the united states atleast on the top 10, and at 1 at the top 20. Where do i see a Sharia law country on that list?
Again you have the basic problem, which I pointed out in the original post, of lack of proper reporting. I am happy to admit that it is likely most Sharia law countries suffer lower rates of some crimes - murder and drug offenses for example. Theft too probably. But we do not know for sure. It is also likely that they suffer higher rates of some other crimes other crimes. Honor killings for example. And rape given how hard it is to prove in most Sharia systems. But we do not know that for sure either.
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mahdisoldier19
02-15-2006, 04:44 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
1. Point me to any country that is under Sharia law.

2. Point me to any country that is under Sharia law that produces decent statistics.

As I said, the problem with virtually all Third World countries is that their statistics are useless. There is an especially serious problem with some countries that also treat crime figures as national secrets. All the Muslim majority countries I can think of fall into one or both categories.



A rate is a rate is a rate. It does not matter if it is applied to the US as a whole.



Well no. If you do it per capita you will find out how many crimes are committed per person in the US - it is the raw figure divided by the over all population to give an average. Otherwise how can you compare a big country like the US with a small one like Bermuda?



Again you have the basic problem, which I pointed out in the original post, of lack of proper reporting. I am happy to admit that it is likely most Sharia law countries suffer lower rates of some crimes - murder and drug offenses for example. Theft too probably. But we do not know for sure. It is also likely that they suffer higher rates of some other crimes other crimes. Honor killings for example. And rape given how hard it is to prove in most Sharia systems. But we do not know that for sure either.
First of all, what do you know about proper statistics taking?
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sargon
02-27-2006, 12:05 PM
I'm from America and most people have the same morals as any other person. The thing that's lacking is fear of "Getting caught" maybe. I don't know what to say about the country I'm from but a few things that is hard for any westerner to understand would be stoning for example.

I'm pretty sure that people in the West would say shariah laws are barbaric, and Muslims say that the Western culture is materialistic and "godless" perhaps.
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shanu
02-27-2006, 01:29 PM
Are u chinese muslim? I heard there 1 million chinese in China, is it true?
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dave09
02-27-2006, 09:56 PM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
First of all, what do you know about proper statistics taking?

1) Statistics in 3 world countries are FAKE because a lot of crimes are not reported there!

2) Don't manipulate statistics! The number of rapes doesn't count, what counts is the percentage! or rapes per capita...

3) Read what other people post! US is not in the top 10, it's 17!

4) Don't accuse others of poor statistics handling when you also don't have any experience in the area...

5) Rape is immoral behaviour and people go to jail for it. Sure they don't get stoned... but oh well, it still sucks
Reply

bezimany 071
02-28-2006, 06:47 AM
Originally Posted by Smok
salaam

The problem is that You as muslims watch this in different way. For people in western society it is not a problem if 17 years old girl has sex or 21 years girl has children and no husband. For You it is something terrible. For us it is normal.
So don't try to judge us using Your morality. We have absolutely different point of view. For people in Europe it is imposiible to punish woman who betrayed husband and had sex with other man. For You it is a crime.
So if You want to judge You have to understand european culture and point of view first.
Remember - it is our culture. If You don't like it - don't "use" it :)
It is something like these caricatures of Muhammad. In Europe most people can't understand why do You make so big problem because of that. And You can't understand why people printed it.

And one more thing. Don't believe in all numbers You found - numbers about rapes, crimes etc. Remember about so called "black number". This is number of crimes that were not reported to the police. In non western countries many people don't report rapes because of shame. More restrictive society has bigger "black number" of rapes.

maa salama

I was born and raised in Sarajevo, Bosnia.......that is in Eastern Europe......right above the Italy for those who have no clue.....anyhow, as far as woman having sex before marriage, she is a talk of the town and not very nice talk either.....I'm not saying its wrong or right, but its the truth.....a guy who has sex out of wedlock is a mans man.....that’s not only in Bosnia but in other European countries as well with exception of USA where it is normal for children to give birth to children......good example is North Carolina, which has the biggest recorded number in the world....the world.....of teenage single mothers whose job occupation is a stripper......I was stationed in Camp Lejeune with US Marine Corps, and I have seen the way people live in that area....

as far as the cartoons go, you might say its freedom of speech.....everyone should have the right to express their opinion and state their belief, I agree......however, freedom to disrespect me, spit on me, and belittle my belief, my religion and everything that is dear to my heart can only be seen as oppression.....see its not the fact that those cartoon artists disrespected us Muslims, its the fact that they choose to do it at the time of war in Iraq......Danish army that was stationed in Bosnia with united nations during 92-95 whose job were to act as peace keepers allowed and watched the massacre of Muslim men and boys in the city of Srebrenica, and haven’t done anything to prevent it, they actually left derogatory graffiti on the walls of the buildings that they were stationed in......so the only thing they are expressing is not freedom of speech, its the freedom of hate my friend...I know I was there and I still know because I am a refugee in USA....

and as far as numbers go......should I doubt the numbers of Jews killed in holocaust?......or would that be considered a black number as well......or should I be labeled as anti Semite or racist or terrorist because I dared to say this......oh wait.....I already bear those nicknames, because people in Europe and in USA wipe their butts with Muslim culture and belief, and we let them.....we let them because we are not the ones who will judge them, we forgive them everything instead, but we also fight, because my brother, you can push a man over the edge only for so long before he starts pushing back demanding his human rights......my sister and I were persecuted for our belief, my mother was shot by a sniper (she survived mashaallah), my cousins and uncles were in concentration camps......all this terror and crime against Muslims was supported by non Muslims from Europe and USA.....I know I been there......so tell me this.....what is the reason and where is the justification to pick on us......what have we done to you?.....

morality???...please!!!!.....turn on the TV and 2/3 of the viewing time is commercials where the products wont sell if you don’t strip a woman half naked while she is holding a miller light bottle....the movie wont make millions if an actor wont have a sex scene with a woman who has breast implants.....and they dare to say that our women are oppressed and have no rights?......my mother never wore hijab in her life, but she is on that prayer rug 5 times a day, so that right there shows you that she chose not to wear it...those women who do choose to wear hijab do so for Allah, not for me or you, its not the fashion statement homie.....

you say that a woman who is 17 yrs old with a child and no husband doesn’t have a problem?......well if that’s what you believe and if that’s what she believes than that’s double the problem right there......a kid needs a father in his life......kid should be dressed in clean clothes and have a healthy meal to eat, do you seriously think that a mother who is 17 and on welfare could afford this for her child?......your problem is you think it is ok because there are thousands upon thousands horny teenagers who live and behave like this so it is not surprising that it seems normal to you.....and I'm sorry to break this down to you but it is not normal....bible doesn’t even teach that, you will never find anything anywhere that is written and says go and have sex with each other and with multiple partners and risk spreading diseases amongst each other and make babies and don’t worry about their future their health or the careers you should be educating yourselves instead just suck on this keg smoke this weed live life to be cool and die like a fool.......that is something that western media made up looking cool and created it for the sole purpose to rob you of your soul as well as your pockets....morality?.....zero to none! ya'll should black that number out!

ma salaama
bez:brother:
Reply

Nicola
02-28-2006, 07:01 AM
Originally Posted by Smok
salaam

The problem is that You as muslims watch this in different way. For people in western society it is not a problem if 17 years old girl has sex or 21 years girl has children and no husband. For You it is something terrible. For us it is normal.
So don't try to judge us using Your morality. We have absolutely different point of view. For people in Europe it is imposiible to punish woman who betrayed husband and had sex with other man. For You it is a crime.
So if You want to judge You have to understand european culture and point of view first.
Remember - it is our culture. If You don't like it - don't "use" it :)

maa salama
Maybe for you and millions more...you believe this kind of behaviour is fine...
But for millions of Christians living in the western world this behaviour is sinful and goes against what God teaches us, on how we should conduct our moral life.
This culture is the way of the world and not Gods, in Gods eyes it is wrong because it brings nothing but pain, heartache and misery to the people who live this way of life.
God gave us these laws for our own good, follow them and you will be happy in this evil world.
Reply

sargon
02-28-2006, 10:15 AM
Originally Posted by shanu
Are u chinese muslim? I heard there 1 million chinese in China, is it true?
No I'm not Chinese I was born in America actually. I came to China to learn martial arts but I stopped that now and just teach English. There are mosques here though, and some of my foreign friends are Muslim as well as some Chinese but I'm not sure about the stats.

It was only recently people weren't scared to express there religous beliefs, China is a place where people are very scared :heated:

Yeah America's a messed up nation, I was happy when I came to China it hasn't been corrupted as much by western culture yet the tradition is kind of like Islamic values, stay with parents until married, girl usually gets permission from parents, etc...
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nihma333
02-28-2006, 12:20 PM
Originally Posted by bezimany 071

as far as the cartoons go, you might say its freedom of speech.....everyone should have the right to express their opinion and state their belief, I agree......however, freedom to disrespect me, spit on me, and belittle my belief, my religion and everything that is dear to my heart can only be seen as oppression.....see its not the fact that those cartoon artists disrespected us Muslims, its the fact that they choose to do it at the time of war in Iraq......Danish army that was stationed in Bosnia with united nations during 92-95 whose job were to act as peace keepers allowed and watched the massacre of Muslim men and boys in the city of Srebrenica, and haven’t done anything to prevent it, they actually left derogatory graffiti on the walls of the buildings that they were stationed in......so the only thing they are expressing is not freedom of speech, its the freedom of hate my friend...I know I was there and I still know because I am a refugee in USA....
I just thought that people needed to read the above quote again...hmm thanks Bez.

It's a very sad thing that people feel that they should excercise freedom of speech by attacking almost one-fifth of the world's population. I'm sorry but you can't tell me that there were no evil intentions there. I"ll give you a minute to say what you need to say, but if you start disrespecting me or my people I'm gonna defend myself. End of story. I will and can never condone the killing of the innocent but it seems to me like some people need to get some stupidity slapped out of them. "Freedom of speech!"...gimme a break! Excuses need to stop being made for injustices...

peace,
Naimah
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songinwind
02-28-2006, 01:27 PM
Originally Posted by Christian_dove
Norwegian, we don't have wal mart, thank God. Americans have the gouvernment and the welfare system that they deserve... Norway is the world's best place to live... Oil revenues and a focus on social welfare politics have placed Norway at the top of the United Nations' so-called Human Development Index 4 years in a row.

OK Sir---You live in Norway....Than how can you make these comments about the usa, not even living here....and the "Wal Mart" things, was a figure of speech:) .........actually its anywhere..even the streets--"Who to blame" , possible childrens service, who can now say that a parent can't correct a child--and than if they try, they go to jail....so this leaves the kids with "freedom'. (don't believe? Go and read up on this.)..
And I am real happy for you that this great state of Norway is so high up:) . sounds like a wonderful place to live..
One question?? whats the name of this thread:)
peace to you Dove...
Reply

HeiGou
02-28-2006, 02:57 PM
Originally Posted by bezimany 071
I was born and raised in Sarajevo, Bosnia.......that is in Eastern Europe......right above the Italy for those who have no clue.....anyhow, as far as woman having sex before marriage, she is a talk of the town and not very nice talk either.....I'm not saying its wrong or right, but its the truth.....a guy who has sex out of wedlock is a mans man.....that’s not only in Bosnia but in other European countries as well
And of course the entire Middle East and probably the entire world. Except that if anything it is more extreme in the Middle East. You have a point here?

with exception of USA where it is normal for children to give birth to children......good example is North Carolina, which has the biggest recorded number in the world....the world.....of teenage single mothers whose job occupation is a stripper
It is normal? From Planned Parenthood of America: "Although the rate of teenage pregnancy in the United States has been declining, it remains the highest in the developed world. Approximately 97 per 1,000 women aged 15–19 — one million American teenagers — become pregnant each year. The majority of these pregnancies — 78 percent — are unintended (AGI, 1999a)."

Clearly it is not normal. Notice that it says America has the highest rate in the Developed world. I am sure that America has more teenage single mothers who are also strippers, but in the Third World, where child marriage is normal, do you think there are more teenage mothers?

......I was stationed in Camp Lejeune with US Marine Corps, and I have seen the way people live in that area....
Although the large numbers of single young male soldiers might make the area less than representative of America as a whole. You think?

as far as the cartoons go, you might say its freedom of speech.....everyone should have the right to express their opinion and state their belief, I agree......however, freedom to disrespect me, spit on me, and belittle my belief, my religion and everything that is dear to my heart can only be seen as oppression
Who is disrespecting you? Who has spat on you? You would not have known if those Danish Muslim had not forced the cartoons to your attention. Why not blame them?

.....see its not the fact that those cartoon artists disrespected us Muslims, its the fact that they choose to do it at the time of war in Iraq......
And how does this make it better or worse? Not that anyone is at war in Iraq by the way.

Danish army that was stationed in Bosnia with united nations during 92-95 whose job were to act as peace keepers allowed and watched the massacre of Muslim men and boys in the city of Srebrenica, and haven’t done anything to prevent it, they actually left derogatory graffiti on the walls of the buildings that they were stationed in......so the only thing they are expressing is not freedom of speech, its the freedom of hate my friend...I know I was there and I still know because I am a refugee in USA....
I am sorry but what is your source for Danish soldiers being in Srebrenica? I thought it was only Dutch soldiers?

As for doing nothing, that is not fair. They were outnumbered by Serbs and did not choose to die there, but they did what they could. They tried to evacuate Bosnians, except the Bosnian government objected.

and as far as numbers go......should I doubt the numbers of Jews killed in holocaust?......or would that be considered a black number as well......or should I be labeled as anti Semite or racist or terrorist because I dared to say this
It depends on what grounds you deny the numbers killed in the Holocaust. If you do so out of hate it is one thing, if you have evidence it is another.

......oh wait.....I already bear those nicknames, because people in Europe and in USA wipe their butts with Muslim culture and belief, and we let them.....
Exactly how do the people of Europe and America do anything other than respect Muslim culture and belief, encourage Muslim culture and belief etc etc etc?

we let them because we are not the ones who will judge them, we forgive them everything instead, but we also fight, because my brother, you can push a man over the edge only for so long before he starts pushing back demanding his human rights..
The Copts suggest that is not the case.

....my sister and I were persecuted for our belief, my mother was shot by a sniper (she survived mashaallah), my cousins and uncles were in concentration camps......all this terror and crime against Muslims was supported by non Muslims from Europe and USA
That is an outrageous slur and there is absolutely no evidence whatsoever to back it up. The Europeans supported the break-up of Yugoslavia. They opposed the Serb attempts to keep it together and then to take as much as possible from the Croats, Bosnians and Albanians. You can see the Serbs are the big losers from the Civil Wars. The West armed the Croats and Bosnian Muslims. They supported them diplomatically in the UN and elsewhere. This is simply pure paranoia.

.....I know I been there......so tell me this.....what is the reason and where is the justification to pick on us......what have we done to you?.....
That whole sack of Constantinople thing aside?

morality???...please!!!!.....turn on the TV and 2/3 of the viewing time is commercials where the products wont sell if you don’t strip a woman half naked while she is holding a miller light bottle....the movie wont make millions if an actor wont have a sex scene with a woman who has breast implants.....and they dare to say that our women are oppressed and have no rights?
Yes we dare. Because in America you can choose to wear the hijab or not. You can choose to appear half naked on TV or not. No one is making you do either. That is real freedom.

......my mother never wore hijab in her life, but she is on that prayer rug 5 times a day, so that right there shows you that she chose not to wear it...those women who do choose to wear hijab do so for Allah, not for me or you, its not the fashion statement homie.....
She chose not to wear it - because she did not live in a Muslim country but in Yugoslavia - a communist one. The West provides for people to wear it (well most of the time) and to not wear it. Unlike Saudi Arabia.

you say that a woman who is 17 yrs old with a child and no husband doesn’t have a problem?......well if that’s what you believe and if that’s what she believes than that’s double the problem right there.
I think that is the problem. The question is what to do about it. Stoning is probably not rhe right answer.

.....a kid needs a father in his life......kid should be dressed in clean clothes and have a healthy meal to eat, do you seriously think that a mother who is 17 and on welfare could afford this for her child?.
Yes I do actually. But affording it is one thing. Being able to do it is another.
Reply

bezimany 071
02-28-2006, 11:18 PM
My First Quote...i was making point to Smoke
Second Quote.....i do not think it is normal, once again i was making a point to Smoke who believes it is normal
Third Quote.....you are correct, military does have an influence in certain areas.....but why isnt there the same problem in pentagon?..because there are more officers than enlisted?......what about Quantico Virgina and 8th Marines in Washington DC?
Fourth Quote those cartoons were posted on buletin board in city bank in New York....one of the places outside of Europe.....
5th......maybe noone from the forum is at the war with Iraq, and i wasnt accusing anyone from the forum anyhow, but the fact is why wasnt this done before, or better yet why was it done period......would you call it freedom of speech if i drew nazi swastikas and posted them in jewish neighborhoods?.....or if i drew pictures of burning crosses and balck people hanging off of tree branches, and posted them everywhere......its exactly the same my friend
6thimma use palestine for example here......they can be evacuated too, but why when that is their home?.....i guess you have to experience it to make sense out of it.......outnumbered yes.....but it only took NATO 2 days to bomb Serbia together with Chinese embassy...with few planes.....serbia had many planes as well...matter of fact the majority of Yugo Army was in their hands they could have retaliated, but they didnt......in another words, Serbs were doing everyone else a favor by exterminating Muslims......they were doing the dirty work and politicians stood on a side line with the front row tickets....either way i brought it up to prove a point, not to change the subject
7th once again i was trying to drive a point home to smok with that question,
8thname few ways european union respects bosnia and encourages our existance......when they denied out flag which we fought under, and when they deny our language,....i speak bosnian, serbs speak serbian and croatians speak croatian.....but they want to say that bosnian language is called serbo-croatian....which means the splitting of bosnia between non muslims is not done yet, and it will continue eventualy.....yes we can understand each other pretty much, but i also understand russian, and ukranian, all these languages are conected, all of em are slavic languages, so why arent we allowed to have our own when everyone else gets to have their own?......and in america....spying on mosques and setting up microphones and bugging our phones to listen to our conversations while we are in the mosque is respectfull?.....wow what manners!
9thcopts are not the only ones, im sure other people object it too, to each his own opinion
10thbosnia was never armed by west.......our weapons came from Osama bin Laden.....and other underground sources.....yes Osama.......the inherent right to self defense is preeminent under international law and cannot be modified by the politics of appeasement or be abridged by actions of the United Nations Security Council....my father was on the front....in his squad were 13 men with 6 weapons......few riffles and pistols.......west never gave us weapons, west media might have said that so you believe it.....but no, we never recieved weapons or ammo from west or europe......i know what im talking about.....been there
11th after constantinople how many rape victims did muslims leave?.....how many tortured prisoners?....in fact if anyone ever wanted to practice what ever religion under Islamic Empire at that time he/she was allowed to....noone was persecuted for their belief......one thing is true though.....non muslim payed higher taxes, but they were not killed for no reason other than combat....
12thslide back up and read what i wrote about my mother.....she never wore hijab, cause she didnt want to.....only when she prays....egypt....its the same thing.....some arab countires do live stricter than others, but it doesnt mean that there are no freedoms, just because you dont understand certain group of people they are automatically labeled backwards people, stone age people, labeled uneducated and oppressed....when in states an actress doesnt need any acting skills as long as she has big boobs.....that expolitation friend.....not freedom.....and i wasnt talking about freedom...its obvious that you can get away with murder in america.....i was talking about morals
13ththere were muslim eomen who wore hijab before the war......my grand mother wore it.......my gread grandfatehrs were imams......yes religion was not preffered in comunist yugoslavia....but yugoslavia was not russia or china.......it was tito's playground and during his dictatorship we did live in peace because he allowed certain things to happen......while he dissalowed many others.......and once again.....i lived there, i wouldnt be making stuff up to prove my point, i have no satisfaction in wasting my time on making up ideas and presenting them as facts.....
14thi never said that we should stone anyone......i know we dont do it where im from, i remember that one incident in africa that was on news few yrs back...that was sad.....i dont agree with that either.....that deals more with governments law, not Islam
15thyou are right.....kids are raised like that all the time....but it would be better if kids were raised and educated to wait to have sex before they get married, it would prevent teenage pregnancy, and the children would be raised by educated mature parents, not teenage higschool drop outs with GED, and later in life they wouldnt share a class with their mom and dad in college.....


i noticed i made lot of mistakes as i was typing this....lot of words spelled incorectly...i appologize for this
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mahdisoldier19
03-01-2006, 12:20 AM
Originally Posted by dave09
1) Statistics in 3 world countries are FAKE because a lot of crimes are not reported there!

2) Don't manipulate statistics! The number of rapes doesn't count, what counts is the percentage! or rapes per capita...

3) Read what other people post! US is not in the top 10, it's 17!

4) Don't accuse others of poor statistics handling when you also don't have any experience in the area...

5) Rape is immoral behaviour and people go to jail for it. Sure they don't get stoned... but oh well, it still sucks

Who are you to tell me i dont have experience in the Statistics area? I am a qualified Statistician.
Reply

HeiGou
03-01-2006, 01:06 PM
Originally Posted by bezimany 071
Third Quote.....you are correct, military does have an influence in certain areas.....but why isnt there the same problem in pentagon?..because there are more officers than enlisted?......
Probably. Officers are more likely to be married and be older.

what about Quantico Virgina and 8th Marines in Washington DC?
I would think there are problems wherever soldiers are stationed in large numbers.

Fourth Quote those cartoons were posted on buletin board in city bank in New York....one of the places outside of Europe.....
Still wouldn't have come to your attention if the Mullahs had not taken them out of Denmark - when were they posted?

5th......maybe noone from the forum is at the war with Iraq, and i wasnt accusing anyone from the forum anyhow, but the fact is why wasnt this done before, or better yet why was it done period......would you call it freedom of speech if i drew nazi swastikas and posted them in jewish neighborhoods?.....or if i drew pictures of burning crosses and balck people hanging off of tree branches, and posted them everywhere......its exactly the same my friend
Yes I would call that freedom of speech and would defend your right to do it.

6thimma use palestine for example here......they can be evacuated too, but why when that is their home?
I agree the treatment of the Palestinians was and is outrageous.

.....i guess you have to experience it to make sense out of it.......outnumbered yes.....but it only took NATO 2 days to bomb Serbia together with Chinese embassy...with few planes.....serbia had many planes as well...matter of fact the majority of Yugo Army was in their hands they could have retaliated, but they didnt......in another words, Serbs were doing everyone else a favor by exterminating Muslims......they were doing the dirty work and politicians stood on a side line with the front row tickets....either way i brought it up to prove a point, not to change the subject
Umm, NATO hardly flew at all in Bosnia, because the Serbians were not there officially. They shot down some planes once I think. But the air campaign over Serbia last a lot longer than two days

NATO's bombing campaign lasted from March 24 to June 10, 1999, involving up to 1,000 aircraft operating mainly from bases in Italy and aircraft carriers stationed in the Adriatic. Tomahawk cruise missiles were also extensively used, fired from aircraft, ships and submarines. The United States was, inevitably, the dominant member of the coalition against Serbia, although all of the NATO members were involved to some degree — even Greece, despite publicly opposing the war. Over the ten weeks of the conflict, NATO aircraft flew over 38,000 combat missions.
They did not retaliate because they were hiding from the NATO planes.

The European Union and the Americans were not interested in exterminating Muslims and went to a great deal of trouble to protect them - this is why the Serbs were the big losers. They created the Croat-Bosnian Federation which saved the Muslims from being divided between Serbia and Croatia. Your paranoia is unhealthy.

8thname few ways european union respects bosnia and encourages our existance......when they denied out flag which we fought under, and when they deny our language,....i speak bosnian, serbs speak serbian and croatians speak croatian.....but they want to say that bosnian language is called serbo-croatian....which means the splitting of bosnia between non muslims is not done yet, and it will continue eventualy.....yes we can understand each other pretty much, but i also understand russian, and ukranian, all these languages are conected, all of em are slavic languages, so why arent we allowed to have our own when everyone else gets to have their own?......and in america....spying on mosques and setting up microphones and bugging our phones to listen to our conversations while we are in the mosque is respectfull?.....wow what manners!
It does not look as if Bosnia's flag has been "denied" to me. What makes you think that? Serbo-Croatian is the common language of the Serbs and the Croats. The Muslim Bosnians are just converts from one or other community. It is not a separate language and it never has been. What grounds are there for claiming it is? It means no such thing. The King and Tito both called the language Serbo-Croatian. All of them are Slavic languages, but they are different (mildly so in the case of Belorussian and Russian). Serbo-Croat is the same language. Spying on you? Paranoia again. You're in America. They have a right to find out who is planing terrorism in America.

10thbosnia was never armed by west.......our weapons came from Osama bin Laden.....and other underground sources.....yes Osama.......
This is delusional. Where did the Bosnians get the money? Look at the Croatian Army - where do you buy German-made 105 mm artillery pieces?

the inherent right to self defense is preeminent under international law and cannot be modified by the politics of appeasement or be abridged by actions of the United Nations Security Council.
But that only applies to countries. Bosnia was part of Yugoslavia. Who recognised it as a country first?

...my father was on the front....in his squad were 13 men with 6 weapons......few riffles and pistols.......west never gave us weapons, west media might have said that so you believe it.....but no, we never recieved weapons or ammo from west or europe......i know what im talking about.....been there
No you do not. The West did. Bosnia exists because of the West.

11th after constantinople how many rape victims did muslims leave?.
Tens of thousands. The Turks and the Tartars raided Russia every year, mostly for young women, and took 100,000 in a good year.

They raped and pillaged the city for three whole days.

....how many tortured prisoners?....in fact if anyone ever wanted to practice what ever religion under Islamic Empire at that time he/she was allowed to....noone was persecuted for their belief.
Well that is not true. Look at the Shia.

.....one thing is true though.....non muslim payed higher taxes, but they were not killed for no reason other than combat....
Tell that to the Armenians. The Americans treat their Muslims better but I don't hear them getting any praise.

12thslide back up and read what i wrote about my mother.....she never wore hijab, cause she didnt want to.....only when she prays.
Sure. Because she lives in the West and not a Muslim country.

...egypt....its the same thing.....some arab countires do live stricter than others, but it doesnt mean that there are no freedoms, just because you dont understand certain group of people they are automatically labeled backwards people, stone age people, labeled uneducated and oppressed..
Where did I do that?

..when in states an actress doesnt need any acting skills as long as she has big boobs.....that expolitation friend.....not freedom.....and i wasnt talking about freedom...its obvious that you can get away with murder in america.....i was talking about morals
You can get away with murder anywhere. It is not oppression if they want to do it.

14thi never said that we should stone anyone......i know we dont do it where im from, i remember that one incident in africa that was on news few yrs back...that was sad.....i dont agree with that either.....that deals more with governments law, not Islam
Despite the clear calls in the hadith for women to be stoned? Do you think they are not Islamic?
Reply

dave09
03-02-2006, 03:59 PM
Originally Posted by mahdisoldier19
Who are you to tell me i dont have experience in the Statistics area? I am a qualified Statistician.
Which one of my points (except for 4) wasn't true?
Reply

bezimany 071
03-02-2006, 04:16 PM
back to first quote
elisted guys get married as much and even faster than officers....however, the number of those marines in quantico, and DC still doesnt mean that there is lot of trouble and problems from those military members that are stationed there.....matter of fact, there is very little crime and bad behavior done by those stationed there, perhaps because they are more stricter than other areas....
the point about the the cartoon is that cartoons targeted muslims....and as right to freedom of speach , we spoke back.....the same way some activists spoke back and protested the war in iraq......yes everyone has freedom of speach to offend anyone else.....but this topic dealt with morals, not freedom of speech....whats moral about disrespecting someone else?

Umm, i never said that NATO flew over Bosnia....and if serbians were not there officialy who was killing innocent children and women with snipers from the hills?......Serbs Shot down 2 planes or one, they made a movie about that while back...You are right camapign over serbia took more than 2 days.....but actual bombing and attack didnt last over two weeks

we were protected by europe and west, after 3 years of ethnic clensing .... after holocaust, the world swore not the let that happened again.....it still took 3 years to stop it.....its harder to help right away than after the mass damage is done...look at katrina.....media doesnt even talk about it anymore, destruction of such magnitude could have been prevented, yet it was neglected.....president doesnt care about his own people, let alone some other folk in different country....
bosnian flag was denied, since union and west said that bosnian muslims fought under that flag......but in fact under the flag that we fought under were muslims christians and catholics......muslims were majority tho...and as far as language goes.....it is not the same....i speak it, and i know the difference.....serbs even have different alpahabet with letters that we never use....yes they have the right to know and spy to find terrorists.....so why dont they spy in churches.....Timothy McVeigh ( i might have misspelled his last name) made an act of terror by blowing up oklahoma building, but they dont spy on regular american folk.......there is militia in flin michigan, they dont mess with them
as far as us getting weapons....you compare us to croatians....we are 2 different countires.......like i said, we havent got any weapons during the war....now that US built their bases in balkan region they gave us weapons......i mean it makes perfect sense...."let the cats kill each other and we'll go help them while at the same time spread our forces further through out the world"...
bosna was recognized as a country on 1 march 1992.......so yesterday was our independence day...yes used to be part of yugo.....just like croatia and macedonia and other countries who got their independence as well
bosna exists because Allah wills for it to exist we fought with sticks and rocks ....justlike palestinians throw rocks at the tanks......it doesnt exist because of the west......

Shia are muslim too.....noone is denying them their pracitce

how exactly are muslim treated better in US, sice there is contant sterotype and racial profiln on television chanles, since every bomb that goes off is claimed to be muslims fault, since they spy on us on daily basis nd still cant stop the terror.....obviously theyre barking up the wrong tree...u watch too much televison
my mom lives in US since 1996......she never wore hijab, other than mosque, or when she prays....my grandmothers wore it back home even during Titos dictatorship.....i still dont see why youre trying to prove me wrong here....in egypt for example women dont have to wear hijab unless they want to....its not west and they still have that freedom to choose.....
once again you quote me
"when in states an actress doesnt need any acting skills as long as she has big boobs.....that expolitation friend.....not freedom.....and i wasnt talking about freedom...its obvious that you can get away with murder in america.....i was talking about morals"
and you reply
"You can get away with murder anywhere. It is not oppression if they want to do it."
read it over again.....i am driving a point across about morals....since this is the topic

and your last question....
I am not the one who can say it is right or wrong, there are muslim scholars, imams, there are those who make decisions since they spent their whole life studying Islam....they are the leaders in our muslim umma......i havent come across hadith that said anything about woman getting stoned....if you can send it to me i would appreciate it, and than we could perhaps start a new topic

peace
bez
Reply

nihma333
03-02-2006, 08:14 PM
I'm really not trying to get in the middle of this arguement.... but bez, here's what you asked for....:rollseyes

Volume 2, Book 23, Number 413:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar :
The Jew brought to the Prophet a man and a woman from amongst them who have committed (adultery) illegal sexual intercourse. He ordered both of them to be stoned (to death), near the place of offering the funeral prayers beside the mosque."



Volume 4, Book 56, Number 829:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar:
The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the Torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; Torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the Torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the Torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones."

.... I think that's what you wanted. If that's not enough let me know.

peace,
Naimah
Reply

bezimany 071
03-03-2006, 02:16 AM
well i stand corrected.....thanx naimah.....we never stoned anyone in bosnia, and i never met anyone who could have told me that they have witnessed such punishment....If thats what God said, than there is nothing i can do to change it (not that i would try).....i guess the best thing is dont put yourself in that situation where you would commit such a crime in a country that would stone you....so it really doesnt matter what i think
Reply

HeiGou
03-03-2006, 03:20 PM
Originally Posted by bezimany 071
elisted guys get married as much and even faster than officers.
They are still younger and, besides, there are a lot more of them.

the point about the the cartoon is that cartoons targeted muslims....and as right to freedom of speach , we spoke back.....the same way some activists spoke back and protested the war in iraq......yes everyone has freedom of speach to offend anyone else.....but this topic dealt with morals, not freedom of speech....whats moral about disrespecting someone else?
The cartoons high-lighted the problems Muslims have accepting basic but important Western values (and so by the way probably helped the Far Right oppose any more immigration). In the West you have the right to free speech. Of course in Islamic law no one does, and non-Muslims even less than Muslims.

I have consistently said, it is wrong to insult someone's religion. But it is not and should not be illegal.

Umm, i never said that NATO flew over Bosnia....and if serbians were not there officialy who was killing innocent children and women with snipers from the hills?.
Bosnians of Serbian origins. Besides "officially" is one thing and "really" is another.

we were protected by europe and west, after 3 years of ethnic clensing .... after holocaust, the world swore not the let that happened again.....it still took 3 years to stop it.....its harder to help right away than after the mass damage is done.
Everyone went in for ethnic cleansing. It was, and is, hard to work out who the bad people were. It took time for the Serbs to be shown to be the worst although everyone was pretty bad. What else could be done? The West does not, on the whole, interfere in other countries unless pushed to. Why should they have interfered in Bosnia any more than in Afghanistan?

..look at katrina.....media doesnt even talk about it anymore, destruction of such magnitude could have been prevented, yet it was neglected.....president doesnt care about his own people, let alone some other folk in different country....
That is an absurd claim.

bosnian flag was denied, since union and west said that bosnian muslims fought under that flag......but in fact under the flag that we fought under were muslims christians and catholics......muslims were majority tho...
Describe the Bosnian flag for me. Does it look like this one http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bosnia_and_Herzegovina?

Who said that it was "denied", whatever that means, because Muslims fought under that flag? As it happens it is not the place of the West ot decide what flag Bosnia ought to have and so they do not.

and as far as language goes.....it is not the same....i speak it, and i know the difference.....serbs even have different alpahabet with letters that we never use.
A different alphabet. The Serbs are Orthodox and so use a Cyrillic alphabet like the Russians and Greeks. The Croats are Catholics and so use a Latin one like the Italians and Austrians (and the other Western Europeans). I assume that the Bosnians used to use an Arabic one but now use a Latin one because the Turks do. But it is still the same language. Can you understand what Milosevic says?

...yes they have the right to know and spy to find terrorists.....so why dont they spy in churches.....Timothy McVeigh ( i might have misspelled his last name) made an act of terror by blowing up oklahoma building, but they dont spy on regular american folk.......there is militia in flin michigan, they dont mess with them
Actually they do. They do keep an eye on militia especially after the Timothy McVeigh incident. But there is no need really. The militia movement died away because of the bombing and has never recovered - Americans have some shame after all. Why spy in Churches? Where are the Christian terror groups? They spy on the Communists, the KKK, the other fringe radicals to some extent. Why not spy on those people that are dangerous?

bosna was recognized as a country on 1 march 1992.......so yesterday was our independence day...yes used to be part of yugo.....just like croatia and macedonia and other countries who got their independence as well
bosna exists because Allah wills for it to exist we fought with sticks and rocks ....justlike palestinians throw rocks at the tanks......it doesnt exist because of the west......
From Wikipedia agan
The Bosnian-Herzegovinian declaration of sovereignty in October of 1991 was followed by a referendum for independence from Yugoslavia in February 1992 boycotted by the Bosnian Serbs.

Bosnian Serbs responded shortly thereafter with armed attacks on Bosnian-Herzegovinian Croats and Bosniaks aimed at partitioning the republic along ethnic lines and joining Serb-held areas. The UNPROFOR (UN Protection Force) was deployed in Bosnia and Herzegovina in mid-1992. 1992 and 1993 saw the greatest bloodshed in Europe after 1945. Following the peace agreement proposal by Lord Owen in 1993, which practically intended to divide the country into three ethnically pure parts, an armed conflict developed between Bosniak and Croat units in a virtual territorial grab. It was later established that Croat military actions were directly supported by the government of Croatia which made this also an international conflict [2]. At that time about 70% of the country was in Serb control, and the rest was controlled by Bosniaks and Croats.

In March 1994, Bosniaks and Croats reduced the number of warring factions from three to two by signing an agreement creating a joint Bosniak-Croat Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina.

Each nation reported many casualties in the three-sided conflict, in which the Bosniaks reported the highest number of deaths and casualties. However, the only case officially ruled by the U.N. Hague tribunal as genocide was the Srebrenica massacre of 1995. At the end of the war approximately 102,000 people had been killed according to the ICTY [3] and more than 2 million people fled their homes (including over 1 million to neighboring nations and the west).

On November 21, 1995, in Dayton, Ohio, presidents of Bosnia and Herzegovina (Alija Izetbegović), Croatia (Franjo Tuđman), and Serbia (Slobodan Milošević) signed a peace agreement that brought a halt to the three years of war in the Republic of Bosnia and Herzegovina (the final agreement was signed in Paris on 14 December 1995). The Dayton Agreement succeeded in ending the bloodshed in Bosnia and Herzegovina, and it institutionalized the division between the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Muslim and Croat entity - Federation of Bosnia and Herzegovina (51% of the territory), and the Bosnian-Herzegovinian Serb entity - Republika Srpska (49%). Inter-Entity Boundary Line delineates the administrative division of the two Entities.

The enforcement of the implementation of the Dayton Agreement was through a UN mandate using various multinational forces: NATO-led IFOR (Implementation Force), which transitioned to the SFOR (Stabilisation Force) the next year, which in turn transitioned to the EU-led EUFOR at end of 2004. The civil administration of Bosnia and Herzegovina is headed by the High Representative of the international community.

Recognised by who? Personally I think if Bosnians, Croats and Serbs cannot live together in peace in Yugoslavia there is no point forcing them to live together in Bosnia and so partition is inevitable. But no matter.

Shia are muslim too.....noone is denying them their pracitce
Plenty of people deny that they are Muslims - someone did here the other day before the Mods told him off - and their practices are denied pretty much everywhere in the Islamic world. Saudi Arabia for instance.

how exactly are muslim treated better in US, sice there is contant sterotype and racial profiln on television chanles, since every bomb that goes off is claimed to be muslims fault, since they spy on us on daily basis nd still cant stop the terror.....obviously theyre barking up the wrong tree...u watch too much televison
Muslims are queing to get in and few are leaving. Clearly they don't object to this sort of treatment and how do you think Muslims are treated by Muslims?

Most bombs are the fault of Muslims. How many Buddhist terrorists do you know?

my mom lives in US since 1996......she never wore hijab, other than mosque, or when she prays....my grandmothers wore it back home even during Titos dictatorship.....i still dont see why youre trying to prove me wrong here....in egypt for example women dont have to wear hijab unless they want to....its not west and they still have that freedom to choose.....
Egypt does not yet have an Islamic government and what they do have is a constant social pressure to cover up. But Islam will come to Egypt and then they will have to. Do you think that would be a good thing?

read it over again.....i am driving a point across about morals....since this is the topic
Then call it immoral, don't call it oppression.

.....i havent come across hadith that said anything about woman getting stoned....if you can send it to me i would appreciate it, and than we could perhaps start a new topic
I really like this hadith (because of the historical information it contains) so I will quote it in its entirity even though most of it is not relevant.

Sahih Bukhari Volume 8, Book 82, Number 817:

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:

I used to teach (the Qur'an to) some people of the Muhajirln (emigrants), among whom there was 'Abdur Rahman bin 'Auf. While I was in his house at Mina, and he was with 'Umar bin Al-Khattab during 'Umar's last Hajj, Abdur-Rahman came to me and said, "Would that you had seen the man who came today to the Chief of the Believers ('Umar), saying, 'O Chief of the Believers! What do you think about so-and-so who says, 'If 'Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person, as by Allah, the pledge of allegiance to Abu Bakr was nothing but a prompt sudden action which got established afterwards.' 'Umar became angry and then said, 'Allah willing, I will stand before the people tonight and warn them against those people who want to deprive the others of their rights (the question of rulership)."

'Abdur-Rahman said, "I said, 'O Chief of the believers! Do not do that, for the season of Hajj gathers the riff-raff and the rubble, and it will be they who will gather around you when you stand to address the people. And I am afraid that you will get up and say something, and some people will spread your statement and may not say what you have actually said and may not understand its meaning, and may interpret it incorrectly, so you should wait till you reach Medina, as it is the place of emigration and the place of Prophet's Traditions, and there you can come in touch with the learned and noble people, and tell them your ideas with confidence; and the learned people will understand your statement and put it in its proper place.' On that, 'Umar said, 'By Allah! Allah willing, I will do this in the first speech I will deliver before the people in Medina."

Ibn Abbas added: We reached Medina by the end of the month of Dhul-Hijja, and when it was Friday, we went quickly (to the mosque) as soon as the sun had declined, and I saw Sa'id bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail sitting at the corner of the pulpit, and I too sat close to him so that my knee was touching his knee, and after a short while 'Umar bin Al-Khattab came out, and when I saw him coming towards us, I said to Said bin Zaid bin 'Amr bin Nufail "Today 'Umar will say such a thing as he has never said since he was chosen as Caliph." Said denied my statement with astonishment and said, "What thing do you expect 'Umar to say the like of which he has never said before?"

In the meantime, 'Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, 'Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, "Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah's Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.

I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, 'By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah's Book,' and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession.
And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah's Book: 'O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.' Then Allah's Apostle said, 'Do not praise me excessively as Jesus, son of Marry was praised, but call me Allah's Slave and His Apostles.' (O people!) I have been informed that a speaker amongst you says, 'By Allah, if 'Umar should die, I will give the pledge of allegiance to such-and-such person.' One should not deceive oneself by saying that the pledge of allegiance given to Abu Bakr was given suddenly and it was successful. No doubt, it was like that, but Allah saved (the people) from its evil, and there is none among you who has the qualities of Abu Bakr. Remember that whoever gives the pledge of allegiance to anybody among you without consulting the other Muslims, neither that person, nor the person to whom the pledge of allegiance was given, are to be supported, lest they both should be killed.

And no doubt after the death of the Prophet we were informed that the Ansar disagreed with us and gathered in the shed of Bani Sa'da. 'Ali and Zubair and whoever was with them, opposed us, while the emigrants gathered with Abu Bakr. I said to Abu Bakr, 'Let's go to these Ansari brothers of ours.' So we set out seeking them, and when we approached them, two pious men of theirs met us and informed us of the final decision of the Ansar, and said, 'O group of Muhajirin (emigrants) ! Where are you going?' We replied, 'We are going to these Ansari brothers of ours.' They said to us, 'You shouldn't go near them. Carry out whatever we have already decided.' I said, 'By Allah, we will go to them.' And so we proceeded until we reached them at the shed of Bani Sa'da. Behold! There was a man sitting amongst them and wrapped in something. I asked, 'Who is that man?' They said, 'He is Sa'd bin 'Ubada.' I asked, 'What is wrong with him?' They said, 'He is sick.' After we sat for a while, the Ansar's speaker said, 'None has the right to be worshipped but Allah,' and praising Allah as He deserved, he added, 'To proceed, we are Allah's Ansar (helpers) and the majority of the Muslim army, while you, the emigrants, are a small group and some people among you came with the intention of preventing us from practicing this matter (of caliphate) and depriving us of it.'

When the speaker had finished, I intended to speak as I had prepared a speech which I liked and which I wanted to deliver in the presence of Abu Bakr, and I used to avoid provoking him. So, when I wanted to speak, Abu Bakr said, 'Wait a while.' I disliked to make him angry. So Abu Bakr himself gave a speech, and he was wiser and more patient than I. By Allah, he never missed a sentence that I liked in my own prepared speech, but he said the like of it or better than it spontaneously. After a pause he said, 'O Ansar! You deserve all (the qualities that you have attributed to yourselves, but this question (of Caliphate) is only for the Quraish as they are the best of the Arabs as regards descent and home, and I am pleased to suggest that you choose either of these two men, so take the oath of allegiance to either of them as you wish. And then Abu Bakr held my hand and Abu Ubada bin Abdullah's hand who was sitting amongst us. I hated nothing of what he had said except that proposal, for by Allah, I would rather have my neck chopped off as expiator for a sin than become the ruler of a nation, one of whose members is Abu Bakr, unless at the time of my death my own-self suggests something I don't feel at present.'

And then one of the Ansar said, 'I am the pillar on which the camel with a skin disease (eczema) rubs itself to satisfy the itching (i.e., I am a noble), and I am as a high class palm tree! O Quraish. There should be one ruler from us and one from you.'

Then there was a hue and cry among the gathering and their voices rose so that I was afraid there might be great disagreement, so I said, 'O Abu Bakr! Hold your hand out.' He held his hand out and I pledged allegiance to him, and then all the emigrants gave the Pledge of allegiance and so did the Ansar afterwards. And so we became victorious over Sa'd bin Ubada (whom Al-Ansar wanted to make a ruler). One of the Ansar said, 'You have killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' I replied, 'Allah has killed Sa'd bin Ubada.' Umar added, "By Allah, apart from the great tragedy that had happened to us (i.e. the death of the Prophet), there was no greater problem than the allegiance pledged to Abu Bakr because we were afraid that if we left the people, they might give the Pledge of allegiance after us to one of their men, in which case we would have given them our consent for something against our real wish, or would have opposed them and caused great trouble. So if any person gives the Pledge of allegiance to somebody (to become a Caliph) without consulting the other Muslims, then the one he has selected should not be granted allegiance, lest both of them should be killed."

You may have a different opinion about what that says compared to me. Not that anyone is going to care about my opinion. But what do you think it says?
Reply

bezimany 071
03-03-2006, 07:42 PM
i dont have time to write back and reply to everything you listed above, because having a discussion with you is like trying to prove a point to a drunk person.....i will be honest, half way through i stopped reading, what is the point of our conversation when youre only purpose is to deliberately prove me wrong just for the sake of doing so.....
for example, i mean if bosnian independence was not when i said it was, than why did every bosnian celebrate it?.....why did our imam today in our mosque while giving khutba before jummah mention our independence day?......im sorry brother but we are not the ones who are delirious and delusional here.....
i will post one thing however, our real flag...the one that is denied......the link you posted is the one we have right now, cause every independent country must have one.....so the one you posted is what european union said we should have......it even resembles EU........our flag under which we fought is this


i have no reason to continue this conversation with you, i dont have anything against you, i just wish not to waste my time any more, so dont expect my reply. May peace be with you.
Sincerely
Bezimany 071
Reply

HeiGou
03-05-2006, 05:19 PM
Originally Posted by bezimany 071
i dont have time to write back and reply to everything you listed above, because having a discussion with you is like trying to prove a point to a drunk person.....i will be honest, half way through i stopped reading, what is the point of our conversation when youre only purpose is to deliberately prove me wrong just for the sake of doing so.....
There is no pleasure in that. Any more than there is in kicking puppies. No, there is a purpose here. You are blaming me for all that is evil in the world, like most people around here, and I of course find that a little insulting. The problems of Bosnia are not my fault and if you blame me I will defend myself.

for example, i mean if bosnian independence was not when i said it was, than why did every bosnian celebrate it?.....why did our imam today in our mosque while giving khutba before jummah mention our independence day?......im sorry brother but we are not the ones who are delirious and delusional here.....
I did not dispute your date for Bosnian Independence. Read what I wrote more carefully.

i will post one thing however, our real flag...the one that is denied......the link you posted is the one we have right now, cause every independent country must have one.....so the one you posted is what european union said we should have......it even resembles EU........our flag under which we fought is this
That is indeed an odd looking flag for a group of Muslims. But I think I understand now - the EU recognises the flag of a united Bosnia. Not the flag of the Croat part, not the flag of the Serb part, and not the flag of the Muslim Bosniak part. But the flag of the whole "country". I doubt it is the Europeans that are the problem. If you can get agreement from the Croats and Serbs in Bosnia to use that flag I am sure that the Europeans would have no trouble accepting it. Think you will?
Reply

Ghazi
03-05-2006, 05:31 PM
Salaam
Reply

moujahid
03-05-2006, 06:00 PM
i personally think that western societies have no moral values left. the family life of every single westerner is wretched. thats what happens to free societies. if there are no moral constraints to ones actions you by default become uncivilized.
Reply

czgibson
03-05-2006, 06:36 PM
Greetings,
Originally Posted by moujahid
i personally think that western societies have no moral values left. the family life of every single westerner is wretched. thats what happens to free societies. if there are no moral constraints to ones actions you by default become uncivilized.
You are a most knowledgable chap, aren't you?

I'm so glad you went to the effort of examining the lifestyle of "every single westerner" to establish these opinions of yours. Did you interview every single Westerner personally?

Peace
Reply

Bittersteel
03-05-2006, 07:19 PM
Muojahid there are corrupt and non-corrupt people everywhere.
Reply

justahumane
03-06-2006, 08:53 AM
Originally Posted by czgibson
Greetings,


You are a most knowledgable chap, aren't you?

I'm so glad you went to the effort of examining the lifestyle of "every single westerner" to establish these opinions of yours. Did you interview every single Westerner personally?

Peace
I think yes he did interview, otherwise he must not be making any such claims. right brother Moujahid?
Reply

HeiGou
03-06-2006, 11:16 AM
Originally Posted by moujahid
i personally think that western societies have no moral values left. the family life of every single westerner is wretched. thats what happens to free societies. if there are no moral constraints to ones actions you by default become uncivilized.
Is this claim any different from saying every single Muslim is a terrorist?

Why are blanket statements of bigotry wrong when foisted on Muslims, but not wrong when foisted on Kafirs?

I know many happy Western families. You cannot confuse the representation of the West in the media with the reality. Nor can you extrapolate from some suburbs of the West to the entire Western world. The majority of people in the West are happily married, content and prospering.

Does all this sound familiar? Try replacing a few words, like "Westerner" with Muslim, and you'll see how absurd your comments are and how we can all agree on what I have said.
Reply

sargon
03-07-2006, 11:12 AM
:sl:
What happened to the verse of Rajam?
:w:
Reply

bezimany 071
03-08-2006, 11:22 AM
Originally Posted by HeiGou
Is this claim any different from saying every single Muslim is a terrorist?

Why are blanket statements of bigotry wrong when foisted on Muslims, but not wrong when foisted on Kafirs?

I know many happy Western families. You cannot confuse the representation of the West in the media with the reality. Nor can you extrapolate from some suburbs of the West to the entire Western world. The majority of people in the West are happily married, content and prospering.

Does all this sound familiar? Try replacing a few words, like "Westerner" with Muslim, and you'll see how absurd your comments are and how we can all agree on what I have said.

before i write anything i would ask you to please read this as my point of view.....shukran
i agree with heigou's statement, even muslims are different in west than the ones in europe and east.....the ones in west take more things for granted, and even though there are many muslims world wide who cherish material possesions, i have never seen this happen as much as in the west.....(i have been few places in the world).....nothing against my brothers and sisters, but we do need to take a deep look into our umma before talking about others....

my views on west are solely based on the government politics and their leaders, so when i drop critique on west i dont mean anything against its people, when instead i am talking about the those who try to play the role of the all seeing eye.....same goes for non western coutries, its not the peoples fault, no matter where, people get influenced easy, it is those who control the media and run the government that i criticize....

p.s
and criticizing is not a good thing to do, so please forgive me, and i hope that Allah frogives me for it and gives me strength to keep my mout shut sometimes inshaallah.

ma salaama
bez
Reply

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