Afghan Man Faces Death for Allegedly Converting to Christianity

[knuckles]

Afghan Man Faces Death for Allegedly Converting to Christianity

Sunday , March 19, 2006




KABUL, Afghanistan — An Afghan man who allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death, a judge said Sunday.

The defendant, Abdul Rahman, was arrested last month after his family went to the police and accused him of becoming a Christian, Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada told the Associated Press in an interview. Such a conversion would violate the country's Islamic laws.

Rahman, who is believed to be 41, was charged with rejecting Islam when his trial started last week, the judge said.

During the hearing, the defendant allegedly confessed that he converted from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago when he was 25 and working as a medical aid worker for Afghan refugees in neighboring Pakistan, Mawlavezada said.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which states that any Muslim who rejects their religion should be sentenced to death.

"We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said. "It is an attack on Islam. ... The prosecutor is asking for the death penalty."

The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, said the case was the first of its kind in Afghanistan.

He said that he had offered to drop the charges if Rahman changed his religion back to Islam, but the defendant refused.

Mawlavezada said he would rule on the case within two months.

Afghanistan is a deeply conservative society and 99 percent of its 28 million people are Muslim. The rest are mainly Hindus.

[Muezzin]

Afghan Man Faces Death for Allegedly Converting to Christianity

Sunday , March 19, 2006




KABUL, Afghanistan — An Afghan man who allegedly converted from Islam to Christianity is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death, a judge said Sunday.

So they're still just allegations. Okay.

The defendant, Abdul Rahman, was arrested last month after his family went to the police and accused him of becoming a Christian, Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada told the Associated Press in an interview. Such a conversion would violate the country's Islamic laws.

Rahman, who is believed to be 41, was charged with rejecting Islam when his trial started last week, the judge said.

During the hearing, the defendant allegedly confessed that he converted from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago when he was 25 and working as a medical aid worker for Afghan refugees in neighboring Pakistan, Mawlavezada said.

Again, just allegations. Innocent until proven guilty and everything.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which states that any Muslim who rejects their religion should be sentenced to death.

I can see where certain members may be going with news like this. I say abide by the laws of the land, even if one does not agree with them. I don't know if these allegations are true - I'll see if I can keep an eye on this trial.

[Michael Samuel]

While I agree that one should abide by the law of one's land, what does one do when the laws of the land conflict with the truth God has imprinted on one's heart?
Why should an individual be punished for following Christ?
In the Book of Daniel in the Bible, Daniel refused to obey a decree that he worship the king instead of God (Chapter 6). Daniel knew that he risked terrible punishment, but he knew where his line of dependence was — with God. Daniel chose to obey God, and when the king sought to punish him, God saved Daniel.
I don't know what will happen to this Afghan man who faces charges. I don't know if he will be saved. But the "easy" route would have been for him to live a lie and continue to tell his family he was a follower of Islam. For him to risk death means he is either delusional or a true believer in Christ Jesus. One would find it hard to name another reasonable alternative, since few men would die for something they believe is a lie.

[mahdisoldier19]

my friend when muslims were living in jerusalem during the Crusade, J/c what happen to them? I think the crusaders used crimes that made nature shudder against the helpless muslims.

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[Michael Samuel]

my friend when muslims were living in jerusalem during the Crusade, J/c what happen to them? I think the crusaders used crimes that made nature shudder against the helpless muslims.

My friend, please do not tell me you are nursing grudges from the 11th, 12th and 13th centuries. Neither you or I were alive during the Crusades. How could I as a Christian have harmed you then? We must move past what happened almost 1,000 years ago, correct, my friend?

[i_m_tipu]

similar thread
http://www.islamicboard.com/world-af...apostates.html

there r some people in my country is very active to covert very poor and Illiterate Muslim into other Religion. i wonder what is going on in Afghanistan (May Allaah help them)..

i really don't understand and tolerate it. it seem that it a game to make convert others by taking a very bad situation and Illiteracy of a man :heated:

they taking the advantage of the bad Situation of a people and offering them money and work in case of of converting..:heated:

this is very very low minded work......:heated:

I say Loud and clear that our base (The Holy Qur’an) is purer than u ever imagine and has no contradiction at all. the verse of Qur’an say about Science, future, past, earth, biology, medicine and so many thing which prove by all that the verse of Qur’an telling Absolutely accurate.

u say it's a Accident that the Qur’an telling the truth
Can u prove any of it's verse telling lie???????? which Revealed in 1400 yrs ago...:)

Allah say The Qur’an is the complete and protected by Allaah himself

can u say something close to my claim (of my base (The Qur’an)) on behalf of ur base???

May Allaah help u......

Peace

[Lush]

Isn't it funny that technically, a Muslim man can marry a "woman of the book," yet religious leaders in countries like Afghanistan would attempt to execute someone because of conversion to Christianity? Somebody, please kick Karzai out of his torpor!

[Knut Hamsun]

Isn't it funny that technically, a Muslim man can marry a "woman of the book," yet religious leaders in countries like Afghanistan would attempt to execute someone because of conversion to Christianity? Somebody, please kick Karzai out of his torpor!

Yup. This is the totalitarianism implicit in Shariah. Societies change and evolve, so to should law and order. This is so sad.

[mahdisoldier19]

Whats sad is you people who think he is 100 percent going to be executed cant really understand a news article when you read it. Reread the full article which the brother did not post and Read it sincerely and understand it.

[Muezzin]

Whats sad is you people who think he is 100 percent going to be executed cant really understand a news article when you read it. Reread the full article which the brother did not post and Read it sincerely and understand it.

Exactly. The article itself says he's 'allegedly' become Christian and 'could' face death. The trial is continuing, and he's not necessarily guilty. Asking questions about the validity of Sharia law is another topic entirely.

[HeiGou]

Exactly. The article itself says he's 'allegedly' become Christian and 'could' face death. The trial is continuing, and he's not necessarily guilty. Asking questions about the validity of Sharia law is another topic entirely.

I don't know. Surely what upsets people here is not that this one man could die, but that Sharia law would condemn him to die and most people around here do not think that is a bad thing. It goes to the heart of why people post in this thread.

[Muezzin]

I don't know. Surely what upsets people here is not that this one man could die, but that Sharia law would condemn him to die and most people around here do not think that is a bad thing.

Hey, all I say is live by the law of the land. That goes for this guy, it goes for the rioters over the cartoon row, it goes for murderers and rapists and paedophiles.

It goes to the heart of why people post in this thread.

True. Though I did think this thread was created more to stir up trouble than to promote discussion and understanding. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

[HeiGou]

Hey, all I say is live by the law of the land. That goes for this guy, it goes for the rioters over the cartoon row, it goes for murderers and rapists and paedophiles.

Absolutely. If that is the law, it is the law.

True. Though I did think this thread was created more to stir up trouble than to promote discussion and understanding. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

I can see why you might think that. Actually it has been a fairly interesting discussion of the law as it applies to apostates and what most Muslims think about it. No doubt it also stirred up trouble, but it certainly promoted a lot of discussion.

[knuckles]

Look I'm tired of being accused of starting trouble when all I'm doing is showing an opposing view. If I wanted to start trouble I could say and post things a lot worst.

[j4763]

True. Though I did think this thread was created more to stir up trouble than to promote discussion and understanding. Just my opinion, take it or leave it.

Most of Fight&Die4Allah's threads could be classed the same

[Muezzin]

Look I'm tired of being accused of starting trouble when all I'm doing is showing an opposing view. If I wanted to start trouble I could say and post things a lot worst.

Ok. I apologise.

I can see why you might think that. Actually it has been a fairly interesting discussion of the law as it applies to apostates and what most Muslims think about it. No doubt it also stirred up trouble, but it certainly promoted a lot of discussion.

As long as it stays civil and doesn't degenerate like umpteen other threads, I'm okay with it I guess.

[Cheb]

I dont understand why Christians would object to this when they have the same ruling in their religion. So do the Jews.

[HeiGou]

I dont understand why Christians would object to this when they have the same ruling in their religion. So do the Jews.

Really? Where does it say that in the New Testament?

Love the sig by the way. Canada?

[j4763]

I dont understand why Christians would object to this when they have the same ruling in their religion. So do the Jews.

Maybe but they dont enforce it now do they (times have changed)

Apparently you can only kill a welsh man with a bow and arrow on a Saturday (or something like that) according to British law (again times change)!

[HeiGou]

Apparently you can only kill a welsh man with a bow and arrow on a Saturday (or something like that) according to British law (again times change)!

Really? Did anyone tell the English Rugby team this? I feel they needed to know!

[j4763]

Really? Did anyone tell the English Rugby team this? I feel they needed to know!

Well its something like that. There are many outdated laws in Britain which are still laws but arn't enforced. At the time of the law maybe it was seen a relevant but now many of them are just stupid!

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

But secular and religious ruling are completely different. As Muslims we strongly feel that we have to hold onto our way of life for all times. It is not changing from time to time. For example, 100 years ago homosexuality was shunned in the west. Who knows, maybe paedophiles will be accepted too aslong as the child agrees to it. I'd rather stick to Islam, not what society feels is right at the moment.

[HeiGou]

But secular and religious ruling are completely different. As Muslims we strongly feel that we have to hold onto our way of life for all times. It is not changing from time to time. For example, 100 years ago homosexuality was shunned in the west. Who knows, maybe paedophiles will be accepted too aslong as the child agrees to it. I'd rather stick to Islam, not what society feels is right at the moment.

Well maybe we will all become Muslims and then there will be no pedophiles. Who knows?

I agree that secular and religious rules are different. But even Muslims have had to supplement their religious law with secular regulations. Even when they have not, they have tended to change with the times, but claim that Islam is the same, it is just that their interpretation, now, is the right one. You can see this in many issues such as whether the Caliph has to be a Quraysh, whether Islam supports women's rights, whether it says the Earth goes around the Sun and so on. The fact is you cannot escape your culture and your culture shapes the way you interpret your religion.

I tend to agree with you about religion. I think that the West has gone wrong somewhere and a Rock to anchor my Faith on would be a good thing. But I do not see that I need to impose that on others, nor that it would be the best guide for society as a whole. And as yet I have not found a suitable Rock I am afraid. Yet Western society goes on. Pretty well for most people.

[Cheb]

Really? Where does it say that in the New Testament?

Not sure if they apply it today. Christianity has the habit of changing its teachings to make it "look" better in its time. In Islam we just stick to what our prophet (pbuh) taught us.

Love the sig by the way. Canada?

Thanks ;). It is actually a Forest fire in Montana. I cant stop looking at it, even though it is suppose to be chaotic in reality, the two dears in that river/lake just give the whole picture a sense of peace. I was going to write something but then decided the pic is good enough alone :)

[Ghazi]

Most of Fight&Die4Allah's threads could be classed the same

Salaam

Leave him out of this, can't you add to the discussion instead of talking about other members behind their backs.

[mahdisoldier19]

Please leave fightanddieAllah alone. If you have a problem with him then you have a problem with me. He is as you say showing his "Opposing view" against people who discredit and harm innocent muslims. So i dont see anything wrong with him. For people who say what the crusader did to the muslims was hundreds of years ago big deal. FOR YOU its not a big deal. But for Muslims we will never forget what was brought upon us. And please do not argue with Islamic principals because me being once a christian that says Turn your left cheek. No one besides the Pope would ever turn their left cheek. No one that I KNOW OF. So what i will do is go to a Christians home and slap him a few times and see if he turns his other cheek. Chances are He wont.

I found this interesting article of Christians being put to death when convertin to Judaism. Hmmm how come no one talks about this? But when 1 man is ALLEGADLY not 100 percent but alleged. Everyone goes crazy?

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache...s&ct=clnk&cd=4

[strider]

Assalamu alaikum

i am rather confused with the penalty for converting from Islam. I don't see why there is a difference in opinion..From what i was taught, Islam is okey with religious freedom.

Ma'assalama

[_salam_]

While I agree that one should abide by the law of one's land, what does one do when the laws of the land conflict with the truth God has imprinted on one's heart?
Why should an individual be punished for following Christ?
In the Book of Daniel in the Bible, Daniel refused to obey a decree that he worship the king instead of God (Chapter 6). Daniel knew that he risked terrible punishment, but he knew where his line of dependence was — with God. Daniel chose to obey God, and when the king sought to punish him, God saved Daniel.
I don't know what will happen to this Afghan man who faces charges. I don't know if he will be saved. But the "easy" route would have been for him to live a lie and continue to tell his family he was a follower of Islam. For him to risk death means he is either delusional or a true believer in Christ Jesus. One would find it hard to name another reasonable alternative, since few men would die for something they believe is a lie.

See the thing is this man is choosing to go against the truth of Allah that should be imprinted on his heart. He isn't being punished for following Jesus (saws), all Muslim follow the teachings of Jesus (saws), cause he taught to worship The One God with out any partners. Instead this man has forsaked that and left the Truth of Allah and decided to worship a man instead, and that's just sick.

[mahdisoldier19]

Well if you put it that way then yeah.

[DaSangarTalib]

Most of Fight&Die4Allah's threads could be classed the same

What the….I just happened to be browsing this thread and I saw my username and was like :confused: where did this come from? What do u mean my threads could be classed the same? could u elaborate? what do u have a problem with?…what I post in this section is from news websites, I don’t write the articles so what do u exactly mean by saying that. I bring the truth if you don’t like it, don’t read it…and if you can’t handle my threads I suggest you stay out of them then! Simple as that…if you can’t handle this forum, then leave. I’ll post what I like as long as they comply with the rules; just because you or anyone else don’t agree with it doesn’t mean I should stop posting them..

[mahdisoldier19]

Fightanddie Lug lug wadarega , daga kafir che u LarGai whukhala , Thaga kafir kwuana ke wewachawa. Bya they boid peige che wale meikh till khar dee.

[nimrod]

Muezzin, it doesn’t really look like it is just allegations “During the one-day hearing, the defendant confessed that he converted from Islam to Christianity”

Muezzin you really confuse me with your statement “I say abide by the laws of the land, even if one does not agree with them”.

Think about that for a moment. Folks, like me, come to this web-site to try and get a better view of what Islam is about. Time and time again when the excesses of some who claim to be Muslim are pointed out, we are told that those folks aren’t really practicing Islam as it should practiced.

Here we have an example of the most un-Islamic law and you just answer with “I say abide by the laws of the land, even if one does not agree with them”.

So this judge should just follow an unjust law and have this fellow executed????????

We should ALL be disgusted by laws such as the one this fellow was arrested for breaking.

Mahdisoldier, there were bad things that happened during the Spanish Inquisition. There were bad things that happened during the Crusades. There were bad things that America did to the native Indians and the African slaves. There were bad things that happened during the Holocaust. There were many abuses of the Chinese people done by Japanese during WWII.

NONE of that excuses what is happening to the man in the article.

Mahdisoldier “Whats sad is you people who think he is 100 percent going to be executed”.
No what is sad is that the fellow was arrested in the first place.

Muezzen this type of thing SHOULD stir up trouble. It should stir the outrage in people till maybe there is enough out cry to bring such laws to an end.

Cheb can you back up your statement with scripture? Show me where Jesus taught such thing or even where the Apostles taught such a thing?

Salam what is sick is that this man is being threatened with his very life if he doesn’t convert back to a belief he no longer claims as his faith.

This is a little more complete copy of the news item.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nationwo...orld-headlines

Afghan Christian Could Get Death Sentence
By DANIEL COONEY Associated Press Writer
March 19, 2006, 6:48 PM EST

KABUL, Afghanistan -- An Afghan man is being prosecuted in a Kabul court and could be sentenced to death on a charge of converting from Islam to Christianity, a crime under this country's Islamic laws, a judge said Sunday.

The trial is believed to be the first of its kind in Afghanistan and highlights a struggle between religious conservatives and reformists over what shape Islam should take here four years after the ouster of the Islamic fundamentalist Taliban regime.
The defendant, 41-yer-old Abdul Rahman, was arrested last month after his family accused him of becoming a Christian, Judge Ansarullah Mawlavezada told The Associated Press in an interview. Rahman was charged with rejecting Islam and his trial started Thursday.

During the one-day hearing, the defendant confessed that he converted from Islam to Christianity 16 years ago while working as a medical aid worker for an international Christian group helping Afghan refugees in the Pakistani city of Peshawar, Mawlavezada said.

"We are not against any particular religion in the world. But in Afghanistan, this sort of thing is against the law," the judge said. "It is an attack on Islam."

Mawlavezada said he would rule on the case within two months.

Afghanistan's constitution is based on Shariah law, which is interpreted by many Muslims to require that any Muslim who rejects Islam be sentenced to death, said Ahmad Fahim Hakim, deputy chairman of the state-sponsored Afghanistan Independent Human Rights Commission.

Repeated attempts to interview Rahman in detention were barred.

The prosecutor, Abdul Wasi, said he had offered to drop the charges if Rahman converted back to Islam, but he refused.

"He would have been forgiven if he changed back. But he said he was a Christian and would always remain one," Wasi told AP. "We are Muslims and becoming a Christian is against our laws. He must get the death penalty."

After being an aid worker for four years in Pakistan, Rahman moved to Germany for nine years, his father, Abdul Manan, said outside his Kabul home.

Rahman returned to Afghanistan in 2002 and tried to gain custody of his two daughters, now aged 13 and 14, who had been living with their grandparents their whole lives, the father said. A custody battle ensued and the matter was taken to the police.

During questioning, it emerged that Rahman was a Christian and was carrying a Bible. He was immediately arrested and charged, the father said.

Afghanistan is a conservative Islamic country. Some 99 percent of its 28 million people are Muslim, and the remainder are mainly Hindu.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Michael Samuel]

See the thing is this man is choosing to go against the truth of Allah that should be imprinted on his heart. He isn't being punished for following Jesus (saws), all Muslim follow the teachings of Jesus (saws), cause he taught to worship The One God with out any partners. Instead this man has forsaked that and left the Truth of Allah and decided to worship a man instead, and that's just sick.

The issue is, would you have a man put to death because you think his Christian faith is sick?

How strong and secure is a faith that threatens converts with death?

Even Christ Himself offered would-be followers a choice, appealing to individual hearts and minds and allowing people to walk away if they chose.

[mahdisoldier19]

My friend michael Since yoru religion is so peaceful why dont you look at what happen to the christians that converted to judaism during the middle ages? They didnt even get trials.!

[nimrod]

Folks, I don’t know what to say.

I have studied the thread i_m_tipu linked in his post.

It seems that the law this fellow is being threatened with is Islamic.

I had assumed that when Islam teaches that there should be no compulsion in accepting a religion that there should be no compulsion in choosing a religion.

This fellow is being threatened with his very life if he doesn’t choose Islam instead of Christian.

I don’t know how it gets anymore compulsory for him than that.

It just leaves me saddly shaking my head.

Totally Confused
Nimrod

[Knut Hamsun]

why dont you look at what happen to the christians that converted to judaism during the middle ages? They didnt even get trials.!

mahdi,
what does that have to do with a case in 2006? Quit using the crusades and the middle ages as a rebuttal for people's willful actions of today. By doing so you seem to imply that islam should be judged in that context, or by that age. If that was the case, you wouldn't last long in the west, would you?

[Cheb]

Actually Christians did have it in their belief that any converts from Christianity should be executed. Christianity has been changed in order to suit people like many on this forum. We do not hide anything. We have our reasons and you can reject or accept them, they are OUR laws.

"This fellow is being threatened with his very life if he doesn’t choose Islam instead of Christian.

I don’t know how it gets anymore compulsory for him than that." - nimrod

If you think it works both ways it does not. There is no compulsion for non-Muslims to become Muslim. But it is not the other way round. But if you read my post above it is not as simple as: you changed from Islam, therefore you shall die!!

[Trumble]

my friend when muslims were living in jerusalem during the Crusade, J/c what happen to them? I think the crusaders used crimes that made nature shudder against the helpless muslims.

Dragging up ancient history just invites unfortunate comparison - most non-muslims consider this sort of trial to be a medieval relic, and by implication view Islam itself to be likewise. What is relevant is what is happening in 2006, not 1206.

I'm amazed to see the "law is the law" guff.... what rubbish! It's a BAD law; why should somebody not be free to follow their heart as far as religion is concerned? Even muslims should have the balls (forgive the expression, any ladies reading) to stand up and defend their religion from ridicule by saying so. Many thousands convert from Christianity to Islam in both Europe and the United States every year; none are tried, let alone for their lives.

[_salam_]

The issue is, would you have a man put to death because you think his Christian faith is sick?

No, and the issue is not that the man decided to become a Christian out of all other religions, the issue has to do with the man leaving Islam in general.

Even Christ Himself offered would-be followers a choice, appealing to individual hearts and minds and allowing people to walk away if they chose.

I'm not saying what you stated is wrong, but, would you like to provide some proof for what you said.

I think everybody needs to read the following explaination previously posted by Brother Khattab;

Answered by Sheikh `Abd al-Rahm?n b. Zayd al-Zunayd?, propfessor at al-Im?m Islamic University, Riyadh



In Islam, religious conviction is seen as a personal decision based upon free choice. There in no value for an outward expression of faith from someone who inwardly is wholly convinced of unbelief. Therefore, there can be no compulsion in religion. This is why the People of the Book living in the Islamic state are not required to embrace Islam. Rather, their rights are guaranteed to them and they are allowed to live in peace and security within the Islamic state and to maintain their distinctiveness from the Muslim majority.



With respect to the issue of apostasy, we must understand that within the context of the Muslim society, Islam is not merely a philosophy of life or a temporary set of policies. It is the choice of the society as a whole to be the social contract underpinning their society. If someone leaves Islam after embracing it, he becomes by his action an aggressor against Islam who publicly discredits it, thereby committing a crime against society as a whole. This is a strategy that is generally employed by the enemies of Islam and by those who wish to bring harm to it.



Allah describes this behaviour in the Qur?an: ?And a party of the People of the Scripture say: Believe in that which hath been revealed unto those who believe at the opening of the day, and disbelieve at the end thereof, in order that they may turn back.? [S?rah ?l `Imr?n: 72]



Apostasy is a crime in the context of the Islamic state. It is essentially an aggression against the state and an act of treachery. This is why the Prophet (peace be upon him) said: ?The blood of a Muslim is not made lawful except for one of three things: retribution for murder, adultery, and the one who abandons his faith and separates from the community.? [Sah?h al-Bukh?r? (6878) and S?hih Muslim (1676)]



This hadith establishes the ruling of capital punishment for apostasy. We can see that it also clearly links the crime of abandoning the faith with separation from the community. It is the treasonous aspect of apostasy that makes it warrant such a punishment.



For this reason, a person in the Islamic state who leaves Islam will not be punished unless he publicly proclaims his apostasy and then calls others to do so. The hypocrites of Madinah were well-known. They were unbelievers who did not publicly proclaim their unbelief. They used to live in the company of the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his Companions, even though their unbelief was known to the Prophet (peace be upon him). The unbelief of many of the hypocrites was also known by the Companions, on account of the inevitable slips of the tongue the hypocrites would make and many of the stances the hypocrites would take. However, none of these hypocrites was ever punished for such things. Their unbelief was tolerated.



And Allah knows best

So, the issue is whether or not the man publically displayed his forsaking the Truth of Allah, and not the fact that he merely decided to stop believing or practicing Islam.

[moujahid]

:sl:

Those who abandon and leave Islam and enter into kufr (disbelief) SHOULD be executed in public.

Peace

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

What the….I just happened to be browsing this thread and I saw my username and was like :confused: where did this come from? What do u mean my threads could be classed the same? could u elaborate? what do u have a problem with?…what I post in this section is from news websites, I don’t write the articles so what do u exactly mean by saying that. I bring the truth if you don’t like it, don’t read it…and if you can’t handle my threads I suggest you stay out of them then! Simple as that…if you can’t handle this forum, then leave. I’ll post what I like as long as they comply with the rules; just because you or anyone else don’t agree with it doesn’t mean I should stop posting them..

I agree. I don't think it's a good idea to get other members into the discussion topic, especially when they aren't present.

[Muezzin]

Muezzin, it doesn’t really look like it is just allegations “During the one-day hearing, the defendant confessed that he converted from Islam to Christianity”

My apologies.

Muezzin you really confuse me with your statement “I say abide by the laws of the land, even if one does not agree with them”.

Think about that for a moment. Folks, like me, come to this web-site to try and get a better view of what Islam is about. Time and time again when the excesses of some who claim to be Muslim are pointed out, we are told that those folks aren’t really practicing Islam as it should practiced.

Here we have an example of the most un-Islamic law and you just answer with “I say abide by the laws of the land, even if one does not agree with them”.

Bear in mind that is my personal view, which I am entitled to, and which I have reasons for holding, and which do not represent the majority opinion of Muslims.

So this judge should just follow an unjust law and have this fellow executed????????

Yes. In the English legal system for example the rule of law dictates that so long as an Act is properly passed, judges must enforce it, despite the potential for unjust laws. It's a moral dilemma. I don't agree with the law in question, don't get the wrong idea. I don't agree with killing someone for their faith. I'm saying that if the law of the land is unjust, no amount of outrage (in isolation) will change things. Outrage which then leads to change, through the proper channels, is good.

If I was living in a country I considered to have unjust laws that I could not comply with, I'd move out at the first opportunity. If that was not an option, I'd try to bring about change.

We should ALL be disgusted by laws such as the one this fellow was arrested for breaking.

I don't disagree. I still stand by my statement of abiding by the law, but that's probably because I'm studying law. :p

Muezzen this type of thing SHOULD stir up trouble. It should stir the outrage in people till maybe there is enough out cry to bring such laws to an end.

Fair enough.

[HeiGou]

My friend michael Since yoru religion is so peaceful why dont you look at what happen to the christians that converted to judaism during the middle ages? They didnt even get trials.!

Actually they probably did. But since when does crimes committed 1000 years ago justify bad things now?

[HeiGou]

Those who abandon and leave Islam and enter into kufr (disbelief) SHOULD be executed in public.

Why?

I mean, at the time Muhammed lived, Islam was the basis of government. It is not any more. Will this man cease to be a loyal Afghan subject if he converts? Will he work less hard? Will he pay fewer taxes? Will he stop speaking Dari or Pashtun or whatever? It seems an act that has precisely no consequences to anyone but him to me.

[Muezzin]

Why?

I mean, at the time Muhammed lived, Islam was the basis of government. It is not any more. Will this man cease to be a loyal Afghan subject if he converts? Will he work less hard? Will he pay fewer taxes? Will he stop speaking Dari or Pashtun or whatever? It seems an act that has precisely no consequences to anyone but him to me.

True. Killing anyone who dares to leave Islam doesn't exactly make Islam look like a peaceful religion to outsiders.

But the rule of law's such a... female dog sometimes.

[HeiGou]

True. Killing anyone who dares to leave Islam doesn't exactly make Islam look like a peaceful religion to outsiders.

Well what outsiders think is surely irrelevant. Even I don't think Muslims ought to change because of what outsiders think. God's law is God's law and you all should only care about pleasing Him.

But the rule of law's such a... female dog sometimes.

That is true - but perhaps times have changed too and it should not be considered to be treason any more?

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
if it is according to the shraih law that one who converts to other religion from islam should face death then who are we to argue? if this happened back in the Prophet SAW days, then the action may have been more severe, but shariah law is the islamic law that muslims must follow
wasalam

[HeiGou]

From the BBC

In quotes: Afghan convert case
The case of Abdul Rahman, an Afghan Muslim who converted to Christianity while living abroad and could face the death penalty in his homeland for rejecting Islam, has caused unease among states involved in peacekeeping in Afghanistan. Here are some reactions:

US UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE NICHOLAS BURNS

We believe in universal freedoms and freedom of religion is one of them. But I should also note more particularly, as regards this case, that the Afghan constitution as we understand it also provides for freedom of religion... If it is upheld, he will be found to be innocent.

GERMAN DEVELOPMENT MINISTER HEIDEMARIE WIECZOREK-ZEUL

We will do everything possible to save the life of Abdul Rahman. Religious freedom is everybody's right. In this regard I also call on [Afghan] President [Hamid] Karzai.

GERMAN ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH LEADER CARDINAL KARL LEHMANN

German bishops will try to ensure Christians in Islamic countries enjoy the same rights as Muslims have in our country.

ITALIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY STATEMENT

If this news is confirmed, Italy will move at the highest level... to prevent something which is incompatible with the defence of human rights and fundamental freedoms.

FORMER ITALIAN PRESIDENT FRANCESCO COSSIGA

It is not acceptable that our soldiers should put themselves at risk or even sacrifice their lives for a fundamentalist, illiberal regime.

UK RULING LABOUR PARTY MP ALAN SIMPSON

We have to be saying to the government of Afghanistan that it is not the role, the function or the presumption of the UK government to have a presence in Afghanistan to defend an administration that conducts and complies with laws that are brutal in terms that would be judged by the outside international community, and would not be accepted by the Muslim community if they were used in reverse.

AFGHAN PROSECUTOR ABDUL WASI

He would have been forgiven if he changed back. But he said he was a Christian and would always remain one. We are Muslims and becoming a Christian is against our laws. He must get the death penalty.

AFGHAN SUPREME COURT JUDGE ANSARULLAH MAWLAVIZADA

If he doesn't revert back to Islam, he's going to receive the death penalty, according to the law.

AFGHAN ECONOMY MINISTER AMIN FARHANG

The heated and emotional reaction of German politicians is exaggerated and has caused annoyance among Afghans... Of course fanatics demand the death penalty in such cases, but it is very unlikely that it will be imposed on Rahman.

[HeiGou]

if it is according to the shraih law that one who converts to other religion from islam should face death then who are we to argue? if this happened back in the Prophet SAW days, then the action may have been more severe, but shariah law is the islamic law that muslims must follow

Well I would not argue that you should change a thing. However if it is more complicated than just someone converting - if, as is often claimed, it was a matter of treason, and that treason charge no longer applies, then perhaps the fundamentals of the justification for the death penalty have changed too? So maybe the law does not need to change, but the justification for it does.

What would have been more severe than executing him? Executing him twice?

[Cheb]

Well what outsiders think is surely irrelevant. Even I don't think Muslims ought to change because of what outsiders think. God's law is God's law and you all should only care about pleasing Him.

Well said indeed.

That is true - but perhaps times have changed too and it should not be considered to be treason any more?

No we do not adapt religion to make sure everyone is satified by what they feel as right. Religion should not change. Full stop.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Well what outsiders think is surely irrelevant. Even I don't think Muslims ought to change because of what outsiders think. God's law is God's law and you all should only care about pleasing Him.

Ok... who are you, and what have you done to Hei Gou?

That is true - but perhaps times have changed too and it should not be considered to be treason any more?

Phew, I thought the Hei Gou who always made me start debates had disappeared. Well, maybe the country should implement the shari'ah completely before executing people. If tehy're going to a half-baked job, they're going to be everyone's enemy.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Well I would not argue that you should change a thing. However if it is more complicated than just someone converting - if, as is often claimed, it was a matter of treason, and that treason charge no longer applies, then perhaps the fundamentals of the justification for the death penalty have changed too? So maybe the law does not need to change, but the justification for it does.

What would have been more severe than executing him? Executing him twice?

They could have tortured him abu ghraib style and then executed him.

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
am just saying that if treason was treated more severely and instantly back in the Prophet SAW time, why does it seem to be a surprise and shock that a man is facing death now? if the shariah law say that he should face death for such action then be it
wasalam

[HeiGou]

am just saying that if treason was treated more severely and instantly back in the Prophet SAW time, why does it seem to be a surprise and shock that a man is facing death now? if the shariah law say that he should face death for such action then be it

But my point is that this man is not committing treason now. It may have been treason back then, but Afghanistan does not define itself in purely religious terms any more. It is some other crime, but not treason. So my argument is either they should reconsider the nature of treason (and this is not a popular option around here) or they should call what he did something else besides treason. If that is what the law says, then he is in trouble, I agree. That does not shock me as I have heard of these sorts of things before.

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
isnt turning your back on islam to another religion in islam called treason? he might be classed as a munafiq too
wasalam

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I think the point Hei Gou is that because afghanistan does not implement shari'ah, they shouldn't be executing him. Maybe I am mistaken.
:w:

[HeiGou]

I think the point Hei Gou is that because afghanistan does not implement shari'ah, they shouldn't be executing him. Maybe I am mistaken.

No, that would be a little too well thought out for me. Besides, thinking what most of you probably would think, if a lot of Shariah is a good thing, then a little cannot be a bad thing can it? It wouldn't even convince me.

My point is that Muhammed created a religion-based society where to convert to another religion was to leave the community and inevitably go to war with the Muslims. Afghanistan is not a religion-based society. It is not clear to me that this man, by converting, will commit treason. Now the first argument would go that if the circumstances of the law have fundamentally changed, if the reasons for implementing it are no longer there, there ought to be a re-think of that law. OK. That argument did not impress. So the second one would be, if you are arguing that this man deserves to die for commiting treason, when manifestly he has not, then you need to find another justification for what you want done. Saying God wants it is always a valid argument in my opinion. Saying it is Sharia is credible to me (not that it matters what I think). But saying it is treason isn't because it just isn't.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

No... i don't like half-baked shari'ah... it is like saying 'Oh Allah, i agree with this point you have made, but i think i know a lil bit more than you on this subject'.
I find it quite insulting... and i hate the government of countries like saudi occupied arabia more than the US government. Grrrrr.... dogs! (and that is being polite).

[j4763]

Salaam

Leave him out of this, can't you add to the discussion instead of talking about other members behind their backs

Please leave fightanddieAllah alone. If you have a problem with him then you have a problem with me. He is as you say showing his "Opposing view" against people who discredit and harm innocent muslims. So i dont see anything wrong with him. For people who say what the crusader did to the muslims was hundreds of years ago big deal. FOR YOU its not a big deal. But for Muslims we will never forget what was brought upon us. And please do not argue with Islamic principals because me being once a christian that says Turn your left cheek. No one besides the Pope would ever turn their left cheek. No one that I KNOW OF. So what i will do is go to a Christians home and slap him a few times and see if he turns his other cheek. Chances are He wont.

What the….I just happened to be browsing this thread and I saw my username and was like where did this come from? What do u mean my threads could be classed the same? could u elaborate? what do u have a problem with?…what I post in this section is from news websites, I don’t write the articles so what do u exactly mean by saying that. I bring the truth if you don’t like it, don’t read it…and if you can’t handle my threads I suggest you stay out of them then! Simple as that…if you can’t handle this forum, then leave. I’ll post what I like as long as they comply with the rules; just because you or anyone else don’t agree with it doesn’t mean I should stop posting them..

Woo! Where did I say I had a “problem” with him or his threads?

This thread is also just very similar to many of his threads in an opposite way (“opposing view”).

@Fight&Die4Allah's
I in no way intended to offend you or your threads as they are too very interesting and give information that some how often slips through the media.
Please accept my apology if it did offend.

[DaSangarTalib]

apology accepted J4763 and you didnt offend me coz if you did i would have told ya...i was just giving my opinion, thats all

[HeiGou]

No... i don't like half-baked shari'ah... it is like saying 'Oh Allah, i agree with this point you have made, but i think i know a lil bit more than you on this subject'.
I find it quite insulting... and i hate the government of countries like saudi occupied arabia more than the US government. Grrrrr.... dogs! (and that is being polite).

Except surely you would agree it is a responsibility on all Muslims to think hard about how to best implement Sharia? I agree with you about rulers who make it up as they go along to suit their convenience. I was told once that it used to be banned to accept money to teach the Quran. But then there were not enough teachers so Abu Bakr allowed it. Isn't that a sensible change that more accurately reflects what Islamic law ought to be about?

[Lush]

I understand that the Quran says that only those who are "violent" in their disbelief Allah has a problem with.

3:90 "Those who disbelieve after their belief, and afterward grow violent in disblief: their repentance will not be acepted. And such are those who go astray.

Furthermore, I am really not sure how the charge of "treason" can be applied to this man.

[root]

The mere fact this man is even on trial has a negative attitude placed at Islam. All the good work moderate muslims do all goes to waste over stupid faith trials such as this, It places Islam under a very bad light indeed.

[Michael Samuel]

My friend michael Since yoru religion is so peaceful why dont you look at what happen to the christians that converted to judaism during the middle ages? They didnt even get trials.!

My friend, I do not gloss over the fact that atrocities have been perpetrated by some who call themselves Christians. Certainly terrible things happened during the Crusades and the other times by some who professed Christianity but were more interested in political power than the Gospel of Christ. Sadly, it still happens today.
But those who practice such behavior are distorting the Gospel of Christ, which is about individual salvation and not about state power in this world.
If someone steals your clothes and commits a robbery, is it fair to brand you a robber when you are innocent and had nothing to do with the crime?
I also note that the atrocities you referred to — persecution of Jews by some who called themselves Christians in the Middle Ages — happened many, many years ago. I was not alive then and had absolutely nothing to do with shedding the blood of Jews. My Savior walked the earth as a Jewish carpenter, as a matter of fact.
The trial of this Afghan man is happening today, and his conversion to Christianity seems to be a crime against the state where he lives.
How is it that a religious faith needs the threat of death to keep its followers in the fold? You ignored the central issue I brought up in this debate.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Except surely you would agree it is a responsibility on all Muslims to think hard about how to best implement Sharia? I agree with you about rulers who make it up as they go along to suit their convenience. I was told once that it used to be banned to accept money to teach the Quran. But then there were not enough teachers so Abu Bakr allowed it. Isn't that a sensible change that more accurately reflects what Islamic law ought to be about?

Accept the prophet (SAW) said to follow his sunnah and the sunnah of the rightly guided predecssors. Since we do not have as great an understanding as his best friend, I don't think we are in any position to make any innovations.

[mahdisoldier19]

My friend, I do not gloss over the fact that atrocities have been perpetrated by some who call themselves Christians. Certainly terrible things happened during the Crusades and the other times by some who professed Christianity but were more interested in political power than the Gospel of Christ. Sadly, it still happens today.
But those who practice such behavior are distorting the Gospel of Christ, which is about individual salvation and not about state power in this world.
If someone steals your clothes and commits a robbery, is it fair to brand you a robber when you are innocent and had nothing to do with the crime?
I also note that the atrocities you referred to — persecution of Jews by some who called themselves Christians in the Middle Ages — happened many, many years ago. I was not alive then and had absolutely nothing to do with shedding the blood of Jews. My Savior walked the earth as a Jewish carpenter, as a matter of fact.
The trial of this Afghan man is happening today, and his conversion to Christianity seems to be a crime against the state where he lives.
How is it that a religious faith needs the threat of death to keep its followers in the fold? You ignored the central issue I brought up in this debate.

To make sure he recieves the punishment in this life rather than face a Terrible extensive hellfire

[Malsidabym]

To make sure he recieves the punishment in this life rather than face a Terrible extensive hellfire

If the threat of death is the only thing that keeps a muslim a muslim, then is he really a muslim?
In other words, if his heart is not in it, and he is being forced, doesn't god know what is in his heart anyway?

[mahdisoldier19]

This question has been bothering the day i reverted back to Islam. What happens to the kafirs who were righteous do they recieve the same punishment of the hellfire of the wrong doers?

[afriend]

This is sooooooo Hilarious......

I can't believe this!

If a man chooses that then that's his option...no1 should stop him as Allah says:

"there is no compulsion in religion" (surah Baqarah)

Whcih means, there is no FORCED RULE that someone has to be a muslim!

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

This is sooooooo Hilarious......

I can't believe this!

If a man chooses that then that's his option...no1 should stop him as Allah says:

"there is no compulsion in religion" (surah Baqarah)

Whcih means, there is no FORCED RULE that someone has to be a muslim!

Brother, it is only if the person cannot justify why is Islam is false. This is part of shari'ah. And that ayah refers to forcing people to convert.
And Allah knows best.
:w:

[afriend]

I suppose so....

As i remembered, by the Shari'ah, it shud b given 3 days for the person to return, but if not then he must be bought and killed.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

^^If the person cannot justify their claims. He must be debated with first. This is what I have been taught.
:w:

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exer...A6E20A461D.htm

Afghan convert's trial put in doubt

Wednesday 22 March 2006 11:30 AM GMT


An Afghan man facing a possible death penalty for converting from Islam to Christianity may be mentally unfit to stand trial, a state prosecutor has said.


Abdul Rahman has been charged with rejecting Islam, a crime under Afghanistan's sharia or Islamic law.

His trial started last week and he confessed to becoming a Christian 16 years ago. If convicted, he could be executed.

But Sarinwal Zamari, a prosecutor, said questions have been raised about his mental fitness.

"We think he could be mad. He is not a normal person. He doesn't talk like a normal person," he told The Associated Press.

Moayuddin Baluch, a religious adviser to Hamid Karzai, the Afghan president, said Abdul Rahman would undergo a psychological examination.

Medical examination

"Doctors must examine him," he said. "If he is mentally unfit, definitely Islam has no claim to punish him. He must be forgiven. The case must be dropped."

It was not immediately clear when he would be examined or when the trial would resume.

Some media reports suggest he may not have a lawyer.

A Western diplomat in Kabul and a human rights advocate - both of whom spoke on condition of anonymity - said the government was desperately searching for a way to drop the case because of the reaction it had caused.

Earlier, Gianfranco Fini, the Italian foreign minister, whose country is one of four Nato members with troops in Afghanistan, told Italian television late on Tuesday he had indications the Islamic punishment for apostasy would not be imposed on Abdul Rahman.

No death sentence

"From what I've been told, and I have no reason to doubt it, the death sentence will not be carried out," said Fini, whose ministry had summoned the Afghan ambassador in Rome on Tuesday to discuss the case. He gave no other details.

The ruling caused a series of protests in Western states more sensitive to the role of religion in international affairs after the Prophet Muhammad caricatures in a Danish newspaper triggered violent protests and demands for an apology in the Muslim world.

The US, which counts Karzai as an ally, has raised the issue with Abdullah Abdullah, the Afghan foreign minister, urging Kabul to uphold the constitutional right of Afghan citizens to choose their faith.

Nicholas Burns, a senior US State Department diplomat, said at a news conference with Abdullah: "We hope that the Afghan constitution is going to be upheld and in our view, if it's upheld, then of course he'll be found to be innocent."

International concern

Abdullah said the US embassy in Kabul had received "hundreds of messages" from Americans and added: "I know that it is a very sensitive issue. I hope that through our constitutional process, there will be a satisfactory result."

Italy, Germany and Canada all expressed their concern. Germany's top Catholic prelate, Cardinal Karl Lehmann, said Christians should enjoy the same religious freedom in Islamic countries as Muslims did in the West.

The case is believed to be the first of its kind in Afghanistan and highlights a struggle between religious conservatives and reformists over what role Islam should have there four years after the removal of the Taliban.

[nimrod]

Iqram "This is sooooooo Hilarious......". I don't suppose it is "hilarious to the fellow in question even a little bit. I bet if it was you it would be even a little bit funny to you.

If a person is only exposed to one faith in life and all other choices are squelched, then that person CAN NOT make an informed decision.

If you CAN'T make an informed decision because you don't have access to all the available information then you can not be held accountable.

I bet you that if it was the Sun Moonie folks deciding to kill your son because the only teachings he recieved was at the air-port and he accepted it and later rejected it, you would be shouting for someone to do something.

A basic truth............................................. . If you don't allow an informed decision................... the any decision is compulsury.

Deny it..... but you can't disprove it.

Thanks
Nimrod

[mahdisoldier19]

All i can say is Atleast the Muslims are giving him a trial Unlike the christians in the middle ages. And yes i will bring up the past why? because muslims will allways remember why we are persecuted and hated because of the truth. God did not father no son He is Unique the omnipotent most merciful

[Ghazi]

All i can say is Atleast the Muslims are giving him a trial Unlike the christians in the middle ages. And yes i will bring up the past why? because muslims will allways remember why we are persecuted and hated because of the truth. God did not father no son He is Unique the omnipotent most merciful

Salaam

Well said

[Knut Hamsun]

All i can say is Atleast the Muslims are giving him a trial Unlike the christians in the middle ages. And yes i will bring up the past why?

Because... let's see here... muslims have no one to blame but themselves these days. By deferring to past injustices you hope to build your sense of victimhood, thus bolstering your justification for "struggling against the oppression of my people". Great stategy!

God did not father no son He is Unique the omnipotent most merciful

A vast majority of the world would, and always will, disagree with you. And always will. Full Stop.

[Ghazi]

Because muslims have no one to blame but themselves these days. By deferring to past injustices you hope to build your sense of victimhood, thus bolstering your justification for "struggling against the oppression of my people". Great startegy!




A vast majority of the world would, and will, disagree with you. And always will. Full Stop.

Salaam

They wont on the day of judgment

[Knut Hamsun]

There is no "last day of judgement"! Nor will there be!

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

are you sure about that Knut?:)

[Ghazi]

Salaam

I just hope that you embrace islam before that day, Trust me you don't want to meet allah with that attitude.

[Malsidabym]

All i can say is Atleast the Muslims are giving him a trial Unlike the christians in the middle ages. And yes i will bring up the past why? because muslims will allways remember why we are persecuted and hated because of the truth. God did not father no son He is Unique the omnipotent most merciful

Hi mahdisoldier, how are you?
I would just like to add that the problem as percieved by many is that thier should not be a trial. He should be free to choose to believe what he wants. Forcing someone into being a muslim won't make them a muslim if they don't really believe in it.

[Knut Hamsun]

MuMinah,
Yes I am sure about that. But that doesn't mean I am not going to try to be good to my neighbors, promote goodwill to the community (and this community can include anyone!), treat women with high respect, and in general be a peaceful soul. Thanks for listening.
Your,
Knut

I just hope that you embrace islam before that day, Trust me you don't want to meet allah with that attitude.

I appreciate your evident concern but I am 100% positive that I am on a decent path.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

MuMinah,
Yes I am sure about that. But that doesn't mean I am not going to try to be good to my neighbors, promote goodwill to the community (and this community can include anyone!), treat women with high respect, and in general be a peaceful soul. Thanks for listening.
Your,
Knut


I appreciate your evident concern but I am 100% positive that I am on a decent path.

Yes, but you weren't that nice to Yasmin.:giggling:

[Cheb]

MuMinah,
Yes I am sure about that. But that doesn't mean I am not going to try to be good to my neighbors, promote goodwill to the community (and this community can include anyone!), treat women with high respect, and in general be a peaceful soul. Thanks for listening.
Your,
Knut


I appreciate your evident concern but I am 100% positive that I am on a decent path.

Being "decent" is not enough.
Plus these good qualities that you poses actually stem from religion one way or another.

[irsha]

All i can say is Atleast the Muslims are giving him a trial Unlike the christians in the middle ages. And yes i will bring up the past why? because muslims will allways remember why we are persecuted and hated because of the truth. God did not father no son He is Unique the omnipotent most merciful

I am so sick of muslims bringing up ancient history to justify actions they do nowadays. Why not bring up the genocide in northern India?, the 3 million killed in Bangladesh? Or better still, what about kosovo? who was it that saved the muslims from being exterminated? the evil west you hate so much, I didnt see any muslim countries coming to the rescue. So, how about from now on you stick to the current day, otherwise we can go on all day with tit-for-tat on who did what in the past.

[Knut Hamsun]

Yes, but you weren't that nice to Yasmin.

But I was very courteous to Yasim! ;)

[mahdisoldier19]

I am so sick of muslims bringing up ancient history to justify actions they do nowadays. Why not bring up the genocide in northern India?, the 3 million killed in Bangladesh? Or better still, what about kosovo? who was it that saved the muslims from being exterminated? the evil west you hate so much, I didnt see any muslim countries coming to the rescue. So, how about from now on you stick to the current day, otherwise we can go on all day with tit-for-tat on who did what in the past.

Exactly Right Minding their own business? First you put words in my mouth which is a nono. Second Lets all do what you say then Everyone mind their own business about what happens in Afghanistan. Considering none of you have been there except for a Few i know on this board. Until youve been there and seen the life over there Do not say anything about what goes on in Afghanistan.

[Knut Hamsun]

Being "decent" is not enough.
YES IT IS. TO ME. Who are you to say it isn't?

Plus these good qualities that you poses actually stem from religion one way or another

.
YUP. Quite possibly. But 100% more from post-Socratic Greeks (pagans!) and early Christianity than from anywhere else. After all, we are in the WEST.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

But I was very courteous to Yasim! ;)

Lol...

[Knut Hamsun]

mahdi:

Until youve been there and seen the life over there Do not say anything about what goes on in Afghanistan.

By this logic most people on this board would not have a right to whine about the USA, Iraq, Iran, UK, Denmark..... Get my point?

[irsha]

Exactly Right Minding their own business? First you put words in my mouth which is a nono. Second Lets all do what you say then Everyone mind their own business about what happens in Afghanistan. Considering none of you have been there except for a Few i know on this board. Until youve been there and seen the life over there Do not say anything about what goes on in Afghanistan.

What are you talking about now? I never mentioned afghanistan?

[mahdisoldier19]

mahdi:


By this logic most people on this board would not have a right to whine about the USA, Iraq, Iran, UK, Denmark..... Get my point?

No By this Logic. No one should Confuse or Argue about the law of a country that suffered from 30 years of War.

2 Different situations This takes alittle logic ok Akhi

There was no reason for Iraq, Lets just say there is a reason The let the USA Invade.

Iran They want to get nuclear power

UK what are you talking about what about the UK?

Denmark Well it doesnt take any genius to figure out what happened there

What im trying to say is Dont judge the law in Afghanistan when no one here has subsided or Lived there to question the law and how its approached by the Afghan people. If a typical man is executed in Afghanistan None of the world would care. Or when children die by US Bombs no one cares. But When one Man goes from islam to christianity and doesnt want to convert back after the weeks that have been given to him. The whole world goes crazy? Mind The business is what im saying.

The reason why we should interefere in Iraq, Iran, Denmark is that theyre are justifiable reasons for protestin and complainin which never get anywhere. But when you have a court in Afghanistan that wants to do what it wants. Mind the business.

[Lush]

I've never lived in Nazi Germany.

Do I therefore have no right to point out that what Hitler & Co. were up to was beyond wrong?

[mahdisoldier19]

What does Hitler have to do with this situation? Why does Mcdonald burgers in america taste better than burgers in Pakistan?

[Lush]

You've essentially said,

If you've never lived in Afghanistan, shut up.

By your own logic, anyone who says anything bad about Nazi Germany, without having lived there, ought to shut up as well.

[Malsidabym]

You've essentially said,

If you've never lived in Afghanistan, shut up.

By your own logic, anyone who says anything bad about Nazi Germany, without having lived there, ought to shut up as well.

Hi mahdisoldier19,
Lush does have a point here. If each person cannot have an opinion on a country based on not having ever spent any time there, then most of the members would not have an opinion on anything other than thier own country.
I think the reason some members feel justified in having opinions on events in other countries, is that there is a universal feeling of what is right and wrong that crosses any cultural or religious barriers. Not to say that each time the members are right (or wrong) in thier opinions.
Certainly you and I have both expressed many opinions about events in places we have never been, without ever knowing the people involved, or knowing the real story.
Peace to you. :thankyou: :)

[nimrod]

Does anyone else see the asurdity of this statement?

"Second Lets all do what you say then Everyone mind their own business about what happens in Afghanistan. Considering none of you have been there except for a Few i know on this board. Until youve been there and seen the life over there Do not say anything about what goes on in Afghanistan."

Thanks
Nimrod

[nimrod]

Sorry about the above post, I had wrongly assumed the page I was reading was the last one on this thread.

After reading the rest of the thread it is clear that atleast some folks see what should be seen.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Knut Hamsun]

Nimrod:

After reading the rest of the thread it is clear that atleast some folks see what should be seen.

Yes, a few of us have noticed mahdi's illogical command. ;)

[mahdisoldier19]

Nimrod:


Yes, a few of us have noticed mahdi's illogical command. ;)

Illogical?

Whats so Illogical? Im telling you to mind your business about what goes on In Afghanistan and you said its Illogical? Who are you what you say or do is it going to affect anything that goes there? People have the right to whine about wherever they like. But When you talk about My HomeLand Afghanistan and how it implements its law in a wrongful or thats how you percieve it to be. MY LOGIC comes in and states that whatever you percieve YOUR LAW to be thats your business. Afghanistan has its own business of taking care of things.

[Knut Hamsun]

Afghanistan has its own business of taking care of things.

Except this forum is about ISLAM and people in Afghanistan are attempting to use the laws of ISLAM to kill someone for making up his own mind!
This issue cuts to the core of Islam in the west and Islam and the west so we will discuss it as long as we like.

[mahdisoldier19]

You can discuss it But whether or not you should disrespect how the country implements Islamic law, thats when i intervene

[nimrod]

Mahdisoldier I hope you are not taking my relies as an insult to Afghanistan or the people living there. That would be disrespectful.

To discuss how a country implements Islamic laws is not disrespectful.
I see folks doing it on this message board all the time concerning Saudi Arabia and how that country chooses to apply Islamic laws.

My replies are not meant to be disrespectful towards anyone or anyones religion.

Thanks
Nimrod

[Cheb]

Being "decent" is not enough.
YES IT IS. TO ME. Who are you to say it isn't?

I am a Muslim with an opinion.

YUP. Quite possibly. But 100% more from post-Socratic Greeks (pagans!) and early Christianity than from anywhere else. After all, we are in the WEST.

And who are you to know that?

[knuckles]

Afghan Clerics Call Christian Convert 'Apostate'

Friday , March 24, 2006




KABUL, Afghanistan — International pressure grew Friday on Afghanistan to free a man on trial for converting from Islam to Christianity, as clerics in Kabul condemned him as an apostate who deserved to die.

Australia's Prime Minister John Howard on Friday joined the chorus of Western leaders to express concern over the case of Abdul Rahman and said he would protest personally to Afghan President Hamid Karzai.

"This is appalling. When I saw the report about this I felt sick literally," Howard told an Australian radio network. "The idea that a person could be punished because of their religious belief and the idea they might be executed is just beyond belief."

Rahman, a 41-year-old former medical aid worker, faces the death penalty under Afghanistan's Islamic laws for becoming a Christian.

Senior clerics in the Afghan capital have voiced strong support for the prosecution and have warned they would incite people to execute Rahman unless he reverted to Islam.

That message was reiterated that at Friday prayers.

Rahman had "committed the greatest sin" by converting to Christianity and deserved to be killed, cleric Abdul Raoulf said in his sermon at Herati Mosque.

"God's way is the right way, and this man whose name is Abdul Rahman is an apostate," he told about 150 worshippers.

Rahman's trial, which started last week, has fired passions in this conservative Muslim nation and highlighted a conflict of values between Afghanistan and its Western backers.

U.S. President George W. Bush expressed alarm this week, and on Thursday, U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice phoned Karzai, seeking a "favorable resolution" of the case. She said Washington looked forward to that "in the very near future."

The presiding judge in the case and a spokesman for Karzai — who took power after the ouster of the hard-line Taliban regime in a U.S.-led war in late 2001 — declined to comment about the case Friday, the weekly holiday in Afghanistan.

Rice spokesman Sean McCormack said she told Karzai it is important for the Afghan people to know that freedom of religion is observed in their country.

Her direct appeal to a foreign leader in a judicial proceeding in their own country was unusual. But in deference to the country's sovereignty, Rice evidently did not demand specifically that the trial be halted and the defendant released.

"This is clearly an Afghan decision," McCormack said.

German Chancellor Angela Merkel told reporters she had received assurances from Karzai in a telephone call that Rahman would not be sentenced to death.

Diplomats have said the Afghan government is searching for a way to drop the case. On Wednesday, authorities said Rahman is suspected of being mentally ill and would undergo psychological examinations to see whether he is fit to stand trial.

[HeiGou]

Story from BBC NEWS:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/go/pr/fr/-/1/h...ia/4841334.stm

Mood hardens against Afghan convert
By Sanjoy Majumder
BBC News, Kabul

Increasing international pressure over the case of Christian convert Abdul Rahman is forcing the Afghan government to play a careful balancing act between its Western allies and religious conservatives at home.

Under the interpretation of Islamic Sharia law on which Afghanistan's constitution is based, Mr Rahman faces the death penalty unless he reconverts to Islam.

"The Prophet Muhammad has said several times that those who convert from Islam should be killed if they refuse to come back," says Ansarullah Mawlafizada, the trial judge.

"Islam is a religion of peace, tolerance, kindness and integrity. That is why we have told him if he regrets what he did, then we will forgive him," he told the BBC News website.

'Deserves it'

The judge's comments are one indication of why President Hamid Karzai, who already has a reputation for being pro-Western, faces some difficult choices.

The president has yet to comment publicly on the trial but statements put out by his office point out that, while the government respects human rights and personal freedom, the country has an independent judicial system.

Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad
Mohammed Qadir
Kabul resident

In practice, it is even more complicated.

The Afghan judiciary is dominated by religious conservatives, many with strong religious ties or backgrounds.

Many feel it will be difficult for the president and the government to confront the judiciary.

But the bigger problem confronting the president is that an overwhelming number of ordinary Afghans appear to believe Mr Rahman has erred and deserves to be executed.

At Friday prayers in mosques across the Afghan capital, the case of Abdul Rahman and the consequent international outcry is the hot topic of discussion and the centrepiece of sermons.

"We will not let anyone interfere with our religious practices," declared cleric Inayatullah at Kabul's Pulakasthy mosque, one of the city's largest.

"What Rahman has done is wrong and he must be punished."

Public mood

The issue has not reached the stage of street protests, as was the case recently during demonstrations against the publication in the West of cartoons satirising the Prophet Muhammad.

But there is little doubt that feelings run deep and can easily be inflamed.

"What is wrong with Islam that he should want to convert?" asks an agitated Abdul Zahid Payman.

"The courts should punish him and he should be put to death."

Few were willing to listen to the growing condemnation in the West.

"According to Islamic law he should be sentenced to death because God has clearly stated that Christianity is forbidden in our land," says Mohammed Qadir, another worshipper.

US President George Bush says he is "deeply troubled" by the case.

That cuts no ice with Mr Qadir.

"Who is America to tell us what to do? If Karzai listens to them there will be jihad (holy war)."

Western backers of the Afghan government are pressing to create a country that is a moderate and progressive democracy, able to turn its back on its Taleban past.

But analysts say they often forget that Afghanistan is a deeply conservative country rooted in tribal traditions.

"This is a Muslim country. The state is Muslim, people are Muslim 99%," says Judge Ansarullah.

"This is a very sensitive issue."

Afghanistan's constitution, written in 2004, enshrines the country as an Islamic state under which no law can contravene Islam.

But it also protects personal freedom and respects international human rights conventions.

"It is a deliberately ambiguous document which tries to paper over the cracks and contradictions of Afghanistan," says one Afghan law professor privately.

"But now the contradictions have risen to the surface."

Published: 2006/03/24 14:20:31 GMT

[Nicola]

What is all this..talk about
the religion of peace and tolerance!

[mahdisoldier19]

What is this All about Talk about A Religion(Christianity) That is suppose to turn the other cheek, Yet They invade murder christians without trial during hte middles ages. They killed thousands of innocent people in the name of christianity. The church told the crusaders that the saracens ( Muslims) Mothers eat their own kids. Oh dont worry i have tons more to mention

[Lush]

State-appropriated Christianity and Christianity as a spiritual path are two very different issues, soldier. Institutions have often hijacked Christianity for its own uses, but that does not necessarily reflect on the teachings of Jesus. Much like a suicide bomber's actions should not reflect the Prophet Mohammad... right? Or are we practicing a double standard here?

[mahdisoldier19]

If institutions hijacked Christianity then thats their problem not Islams Problem.

You talk about suicide bombing? Im not going to justify that because i find that unislamic myself but let us say you have your family. Then one day a person whom you hated all your life tells you im going to live with you. And you have no choice but to do it. Then next day he tells you to get out, rapes your mother, tortures your father and your brothers and sisters and destroys your house that you worked so long for. You tell me At that MOMENT when that HAPPENS you tell me what will go through your mind.

Islam has its own way of dealing with issues, if a Country follows it and everyone decides to whine about whats going on. Then the people should just mind their own business. When Innocent people are put to death in texas for murder, death row. Do you see the Muslim World going crazy?

If the teachings of Christianity is to turn the Other Cheek And your saying its coming from Jesus? Your conflicting your Statement. Islam was not made by Muhammad sws. Islam was the law that was being presented through the Abrahamic Religion to Moses, Jesus now Muhammad.

When a christian nun covers herself people say it is respectful, But when a Muslim woman covers herself it is called Oppression?

[Lush]

What are you on about? Nuns? What does this have to do with the man being executed again? Or are we merely going tit-for-tat and trying to figure out whose civilization is "best"? Sorry, I don't play those games.

[Lush]

I think the Muslim World, and the rest of the world, should be going crazy over the executions in Texas. I am a firm opposer of the death penalty in general, especially to the way its applied in states like Texas. The death penalty only serves to further brutalize society, according to the best criminologists we have in this country, and beyond.

[Ghazi]

Salaam

Well how come no one makes a fuss about executions in prisons, oh yeah I remember they just broke some law, and they deserve it right?, well can't the same be applied to this case.

[Lush]

No one makes a fuss? Excuse me? There's is a huge anti-death penalty movement in the States. I'm part of it. As for places like Canada, the UK, and beyond, they don't even have the death penalty anymore.

[Ghazi]

No one makes a fuss? Excuse me? There's is a huge anti-death penalty movement in the States. I'm part of it. As for places like Canada, the UK, and beyond, they don't even have the death penalty anymore.

Salaam

Ok you got a point there, but what I ment was the media doesn't pick up on these case that much, but when islam is connected it's everywhere I even know about it and I don't even watch the news.

[Lush]

Probably has to do with the billions of dollars invested in Afghanistan at the moment. Just a guess on my part. I agree that the media will pick and choose these things, based on a lot of external factors, not all of them particularly commendable. The media, for example, often highlights missing white women in the U.S.A. If a black woman goes missing, however, most people don't bat an eyelash. Unless she's pregnant. I was recently surprised that CNN would bother with running a story on a missing black woman, until I realized that she had one in the oven. What can I say? The media is as biased as any entity.

[mahdisoldier19]

Thank You Lush that is exactly what i want you to say and Comprehend.

The Media is Completely Biased

[Malsidabym]

Salaam

Well how come no one makes a fuss about executions in prisons, oh yeah I remember they just broke some law, and they deserve it right?, well can't the same be applied to this case.

Just to add to the discussion that has taken place since this quote. There is in addition to the reasons that have been given as to why this is getting so much attention, the fact that in the western way of thinking, choosing any religion, christianity, islam, buddism, is not a crime. A person should be free to choose. Therefore following this thinking, a person would say that the fact that he is even on trial is wrong in the first place.
Islam itself, I have heard from other members, does not condemn those of other religions. I have been told that a muslim is to respect those of other faiths. Therefore I must conclude from this, that the law that is in place that puts this man on trial, is unislamic. It certainly is not a law that promotes peace or tolerance.

[HeiGou]

What is this All about Talk about A Religion(Christianity) That is suppose to turn the other cheek, Yet They invade murder christians without trial during hte middles ages. They killed thousands of innocent people in the name of christianity. The church told the crusaders that the saracens ( Muslims) Mothers eat their own kids. Oh dont worry i have tons more to mention

All that would be handy if someone was claiming Christianity is and always was better than Islam. So if you see someone do that remember to mention all that stuff. In the meantime, no matter how badly the Catholic Church used to behave, and I do not believe they told Christians that Muslims ate their own children, it is not a justification for Muslims behaving badly now. If you want to say this is Sharia and what God wants, please go ahead. But calling Knuckle's Mother fat won't make your any thinner.

[HeiGou]

Probably has to do with the billions of dollars invested in Afghanistan at the moment.

What billions? Afghanistan is a vast tray of, well I won't say that, sand with some beautiful mountains stuck in it. Put together it is probably not worth a third of downtown Peoria.

Just a guess on my part. I agree that the media will pick and choose these things, based on a lot of external factors, not all of them particularly commendable. The media, for example, often highlights missing white women in the U.S.A. If a black woman goes missing, however, most people don't bat an eyelash. Unless she's pregnant. I was recently surprised that CNN would bother with running a story on a missing black woman, until I realized that she had one in the oven. What can I say? The media is as biased as any entity.

I think you will find that, in so far as this exists at all, it is a product of their audience's tastes, not media bias. White people don't care about missing Black women. There are too many of them and their stories are too complicated. Missing White girls are easy and simple and White people can relate.

[Nicola]

What is this All about Talk about A Religion(Christianity) That is suppose to turn the other cheek, Yet They invade murder christians without trial during hte middles ages. They killed thousands of innocent people in the name of christianity. The church told the crusaders that the saracens ( Muslims) Mothers eat their own kids. Oh dont worry i have tons more to mention

there have been many anti christs within church ..like Jesus told us there would be...and there still is many even today...so I don't mind agreeing with you on that point.

but thats another topic...if you'd like to start one?


this topic is about one man who has harmed no one at all...besides worship our Lord God almighty. He isn't a rapist or murderer...
God gave him free will and he is exercising it.

After all the demos of 'those cartoons' and millions came out demostrating peacfully... that Islam is a peaceful religion and tolerant of other religions other faiths..and then this!.....


how then will this sit with world opinion of what people think Islam is all about...you may say! ...Muslims aren't bothered what others think...and that would be your right to...
But them Muslims shouldn't complain when people in the west say...those cartoon where correct.

this is sending out a mixed message of Islam.

[Malsidabym]

God gave him free will and he is exercising it.

This is an important point, God gave us free will to choose. The only catch is, if you don't use it as you should you will answer on judgement day.
So, God gave us free will, so who are we as men to take the free will from another man? It was given to him by God. Has man become so arrogant that he believes to know better than God?

[Nicola]

This is an important point, God gave us free will to choose. The only catch is, if you don't use it as you should you will answer on judgement day.
So, God gave us free will, so who are we as men to take the free will from another man? It was given to him by God. Has man become so arrogant that he believes to know better than God?

Seems that way with one particular faith.

Yet another big difference between the God of the Bible and Allah of the Koran.

[mahdisoldier19]

What billions? Afghanistan is a vast tray of, well I won't say that, sand with some beautiful mountains stuck in it. Put together it is probably not worth a third of downtown Peoria.



I think you will find that, in so far as this exists at all, it is a product of their audience's tastes, not media bias. White people don't care about missing Black women. There are too many of them and their stories are too complicated. Missing White girls are easy and simple and White people can relate.

This proves the ignorance of some people on this board who have not even been to Afghanistan. You havent even been there. Dont talk about it because there are many beautiful places in Afghanistan you just dont see it on the News and wikipedia which is Probaly(Im not stating that you are you probaly do) where you get majority of your information from. Seriously if you havent been there dont talk about its beauty.

[HeiGou]

This proves the ignorance of some people on this board who have not even been to Afghanistan. You havent even been there. Dont talk about it because there are many beautiful places in Afghanistan you just dont see it on the News and wikipedia which is where you get majority of your information from. Seriously if you havent been there dont talk about its beauty.

Exactly what am I displaying ignorance of here? I said it has some beautiful mountains. You seem to agree. What's your problem with that I said?

It is also one of the poorest places on Earth with huge problems, a near total lack of infrastructure and landmines all over the place. Who would want to annex it?

[mahdisoldier19]

Exactly what am I displaying ignorance of here? I said it has some beautiful mountains. You seem to agree. What's your problem with that I said?

It is also one of the poorest places on Earth with huge problems, a near total lack of infrastructure and landmines all over the place. Who would want to annex it?

There are more than just Mountains in Afghanistan if you knew anything about Afghanistan. Afghanistan produces one of the rarest nuts, Contains MASS AMOUNTS OF Quartz, Gold, Diamonds. They just recently discovered 1.3 billion barrels of Oil in Afghanistan. There is so much in the country thats alittle smaller than the size of Texas. Seriously, if you never been there to see its beauty then dont talk about it thinking it to be some mountains with desert land. There are Parts that dont have just beautiful mountains. Landmines Yes because why? Because of Russia, if Russia had not invaded Afghanistan, Afghanistan would be a Much Greater Place than it is today.

[HeiGou]

There are more than just Mountains in Afghanistan if you knew anything about Afghanistan. Afghanistan produces one of the rarest nuts, Contains MASS AMOUNTS OF Quartz, Gold, Diamonds. They just recently discovered 1.3 billion barrels of Oil in Afghanistan. There is so much in the country thats alittle smaller than the size of Texas. Seriously, if you never been there to see its beauty then dont talk about it thinking it to be some mountains with desert land. There are Parts that dont have just beautiful mountains. Landmines Yes because why? Because of Russia, if Russia had not invaded Afghanistan, Afghanistan would be a Much Greater Place than it is today.

Look you are obvious hurt that I don't give enough praise to the beauty of Afghanistan and I am sorry, I don't mean to be rude about your homeland. But nuts? Come on, give me a break. Quartz? Hate the stufff myself. Afghanistan as I thought I established, has minimal reserves of gold. Diamonds is a new one to me. Texas has produced 4.5 billion barrels of oil so far and is still going strong.

[mahdisoldier19]

Give you a break? You disrespected my home country saying it was just a land with a few beautiful mountains. Afghanistan Has Emeralds, Lapis- Lazulis, Rubis. Alot of things Those are just a few. Mercury, Uranium and other Rare Earthly Materials. Afghanistan has mass amounts of Gem. They had found over 20,000 Bactrian Gold Objects Which are priceless.

Im not telling you to praise Afghanistan, Did i ever say that to you? Dont put words in my mouth. Im simply telling you dont disrespect the country i am from.

[------]

Give you a break? You disrespected my home country saying it was just a land with a few beautiful mountains. Afghanistan Has Emeralds, Lapis- Lazulis, Rubis. Alot of things Those are just a few. Mercury, Uranium and other Rare Earthly Materials. Afghanistan has mass amounts of Gem. They had found over 20,000 Bactrian Gold Objects Which are priceless.

Im not telling you to praise Afghanistan, Did i ever say that to you? Dont put words in my mouth. Im simply telling you dont disrespect the country i am from.

Woah.....I've heard of saying it 2 the face but this is...LOL....Sfe bro... :giggling:

[abdul Majid]

Yess Disrespect Is Not Tolerated Here !!

[HeiGou]

Give you a break? You disrespected my home country saying it was just a land with a few beautiful mountains. Afghanistan Has Emeralds, Lapis- Lazulis, Rubis. Alot of things Those are just a few. Mercury, Uranium and other Rare Earthly Materials. Afghanistan has mass amounts of Gem. They had found over 20,000 Bactrian Gold Objects Which are priceless.

You call that disrespect? On a website that features rants about the US and Britain every other day? You are entitled to your opinion I suppose.

Would you be happier if I stuck to objective measures - like the fact that the entire Afghan economy is, what?, 20 billion?

They had found them. What happened to them?

I can't believe you think saying a country is dirt poor but beautiful is disrespectful. But if so, I apologise. I can't wait to see how you describe my homeland.

[mahdisoldier19]

No thats not what you said What you said was afghanistan only has a few beautiful mountains. When you havent even been there and seen it. Sorry the twisting around game doesnt work on this board. I dont know what happened to the amazing artificats and rare materials. Why dont you ask Cheney?

And i dont know your homeland what is it j/c?

[HeiGou]

No thats not what you said What you said was afghanistan only has a few beautiful mountains. When you havent even been there and seen it. Sorry the twisting around game doesnt work on this board. I dont know what happened to the amazing artificats and rare materials. Why dont you ask Cheney?

Well rumor has it the Taleban did not care for Bactrian objects. No doubt you will deny this too and I'd be happy to be corrected. I hate to think of all those gold pieces and pottery going the way of the Bamiyan Buddhas.

A lot of them have turned up in Europe though. For once I have to say that is a good thing.

And i dont know your homeland what is it j/c?

Umm, I think I'll keep that one to myself. You'd hate it.

[mahdisoldier19]

I wont hate it , you see This is your problem. You assume too much. When you assume you constantly get proven wrong. That is why there is no point in debating or keeping a conversation with you. Your credibility isnt based on experience or anything, just what you find on wikipedia, google and thats close to it seriously.

[Malsidabym]

No thats not what you said What you said was afghanistan only has a few beautiful mountains. When you havent even been there and seen it. Sorry the twisting around game doesnt work on this board. I dont know what happened to the amazing artificats and rare materials. Why dont you ask Cheney?

I know what happened to the centuries old priceless ancient Bamiyan statues. The world considered them masterpieces, and a treasure for all people, they were destroyed by the taliban. Many of the artifacts in the Kabul museum were looted during the period between 1992 - 1996 in fighting between rival islamic factions when the Taliban took control.

[mahdisoldier19]

Yes they were destroyed by the Taliban, Do you know why?
First of all Did you know the explosives came from Saudi Arabia and other arab countries , the Taliban dont have the money or the genius to blow those up unless its stingers.

How would you like it when little children and families are starving for food, hundreds of little children dieing a month then You see the world donating money to save the statues not the children? If you dont care about afghanistans future why should you care about the past?

Do you have any heart or common sense?
How would you like it if your children were starving allday no place to eat sleep or anything then the man next to you with a gold chain is getting paid to keep it and your getting nothing. Im assuming you dont know how it feels because of the response you had given. And it does look like you havent felt that in Afghanistan other wise you wouldnt be talking about the bamiyan statues.

The looting? What does the looting have to do with the Taliban? Those were warlords and other tribal men stealing it, the taliban stopped all of that.

Do you have a heart or common sense? because to me it seems that you dont have either

[Malsidabym]

I am not sure of what you are saying here, but are you saying that the Taliban did not blow up the statues? And are you making a connection between the parents of starving children, and the destruction of the statues? Just to clarify please.

[mahdisoldier19]

Im Saying Yes the Taliban did blow up the statues, But not by themselves. They had alittle funding. And Yes im proud of them blowing up the statues. Why?

Because the Families and mothers and fathers of children who were staying near those statues starving for money and food Begging the internation world to coincide and help them. Yet no, The World cares more about 3000 Year Old Statues. Now my question to you is Why should the taliban car about the past when the world fails to recognize its future?

I know this because i was one of those children.

[Wahid]

Malsidabym he is saying that taleban blew up the statues because they were recieving way more attention and mony than the pple that were realy in need of that mony and attention

Also they were idols worshiped as gods by some hindus i beleive, in my opnion its good that they were destroyed, prophet muhammad(swt) destroyed the idols in makkah after it was conqured also prophet Abraham did the same thing

[Wahid]

opps am too late bro already responded to this :p

[knuckles]

Im Saying Yes the Taliban did blow up the statues, But not by themselves. They had alittle funding. And Yes im proud of them blowing up the statues. Why?

Because the Families and mothers and fathers of children who were staying near those statues starving for money and food Begging the internation world to coincide and help them. Yet no, The World cares more about 3000 Year Old Statues. Now my question to you is Why should the taliban car about the past when the world fails to recognize its future?

I know this because i was one of those children.

Were the statues taking food out of people mouths? This is the most assinine excuse for total destruction of an artifact I've ever heard.

[mahdisoldier19]

I think you should just not post on this topic because

1) you dont know anything about Afghanistan

2) You dont know about the starvation problem and its people

3) Dont dictate to me thats the excuse because if you saw your children dieing in front of your eyes while the statues next to them were getting loved you would feel the same why. Why would the world care about its past when the future isnt even recognized?

The reason why i bring up these points is because if you were a true afghan or knew anything about afghanistan or had ANY EXPERIENCE in this part of life you would understand the calamities and situation of Afghanistan.

Dont try to dictate to me thats the excuse when hundreds of children are dieing a month when they begg the world for money yet the world doesnt recognize them and only recognizes statues. What more justification do u need?

[snakelegs]

No thats not what you said What you said was afghanistan only has a few beautiful mountains. When you havent even been there and seen it. Sorry the twisting around game doesnt work on this board. I dont know what happened to the amazing artificats and rare materials. Why dont you ask Cheney?

And i dont know your homeland what is it j/c?

this is off topic but if anyone wants a glimpse of the beauty of afghanistan, here is a link to a whole bunch of beautiful photos. i find the ones of bamian province simply awesome.

http://www.lukepowell.com/

i hope one day not too far distant future, this beautiful land will know peace.

[Malsidabym]

Im Saying Yes the Taliban did blow up the statues, But not by themselves. They had alittle funding. And Yes im proud of them blowing up the statues. Why?

Because the Families and mothers and fathers of children who were staying near those statues starving for money and food Begging the internation world to coincide and help them. Yet no, The World cares more about 3000 Year Old Statues. Now my question to you is Why should the taliban car about the past when the world fails to recognize its future?

I know this because i was one of those children.

I am very sorry to hear of your past hardship. Many of us have been through terrible things, it is sad that life has so much pain.
As far as the reason is concerned as to why the taliban destroyed them, Mullah Mohammed Omar didn't mention anything other than religious reasons when he issued the edict to destroy them. he said, "Because God is one God and these statues are there to be worshipped and that is wrong. They should be destroyed so that they are not worshipped now or in the future." Now the problem I have is that islam is clear on respecting other religions, and I don't think that Mr. Omar was respecting the buddists in this case.
The Taliban had a arms length butt-out stance on any kind of foreign intervention around this time period. Again, I am sorry for your hardship at that time, but the Taliban were not seeking aid.
Foreign aid groups such as the Red Cross have tried at times to help, sometimes they were permitted, other times they were not.

[knuckles]

I think you should just not post on this topic because

1) you dont know anything about Afghanistan

2) You dont know about the starvation problem and its people

3) Dont dictate to me thats the excuse because if you saw your children dieing in front of your eyes while the statues next to them were getting loved you would feel the same why. Why would the world care about its past when the future isnt even recognized?

The reason why i bring up these points is because if you were a true afghan or knew anything about afghanistan or had ANY EXPERIENCE in this part of life you would understand the calamities and situation of Afghanistan.

Dont try to dictate to me thats the excuse when hundreds of children are dieing a month when they begg the world for money yet the world doesnt recognize them and only recognizes statues. What more justification do u need?

Ok the statues were blown up and they still didn't get food. What was the point? By the way you can't make me stop talking about Afghanistan. Actually I think I'll speak about it whenever I feel like it

[mahdisoldier19]

The reason why the Red Cross werent permitted is because Afghanistan is the only country with millions of mine fields. If those Red Cross members start dieing on all corners, then its going to create a problem for the taliban. The security was in uproar , women were being raped on city streets. They needed to secure the country which they eventually started doing that is why some red cross were able to get in to help some key areas. Eventually all of them would when the mines cleared up.

And dont worry Malsidabmy I respect you alot but you have to understand some of the issues isnt what you see on the News or internet. Different perspectives. The majority of perspectives you get are from hazaris, tajiks and kabuls. Not much from Poshtuns That suffer the most.

[Malsidabym]

this is off topic but if anyone wants a glimpse of the beauty of afghanistan, here is a link to a whole bunch of beautiful photos. i find the ones of bamian province simply awesome.

http://www.lukepowell.com/

i hope one day not too far distant future, this beautiful land will know peace.

It is beutiful there, I hope one day I could visit (perhaps mahdisoldier19 could show me around LOL).

[mahdisoldier19]

Are you a guy or a girl, you have to know alot of things! Keep your mouth shut dont look anyone in the eye. And just stand behind me lol ill do all the talking

[knuckles]

The reason why the Red Cross werent permitted is because Afghanistan is the only country with millions of mine fields. If those Red Cross members start dieing on all corners, then its going to create a problem for the taliban. The security was in uproar , women were being raped on city streets. They needed to secure the country which they eventually started doing that is why some red cross were able to get in to help some key areas. Eventually all of them would when the mines cleared up.

And dont worry Malsidabmy I respect you alot but you have to understand some of the issues isnt what you see on the News or internet. Different perspectives. The majority of perspectives you get are from hazaris, tajiks and kabuls. Not much from Poshtuns That suffer the most.

Wow and Afghanistab was in heaven under the Taliban right? At least that's what a few posters were saying in other posts.

[mahdisoldier19]

Man Knuckles, everytime i beat you in a arguement you jump to another one. Did i ever say the taliban was Heaven for the afghan people? Dont put words in my mouth. I could say The Afghan people wanted the taliban in the beginning, how do you think they started? They didnt force theyre way in, They were wanted in to bring security. Like everything else some elements are good some are bad. Im not going to say all the taliban were GREAT there were some bad fellas. But thats in every society. Just look at BUSH!

[Malsidabym]

you have to understand some of the issues isnt what you see on the News or internet. Different perspectives. The majority of perspectives you get are from hazaris, tajiks and kabuls. Not much from Poshtuns That suffer the most

.
I am very aware of the one-sidedness of most stories, I spend alot of time trying to find different views, that is why I am talking to you now! LOL! Yes I go to CNN, but also BBC, CBC, AFP,INA, and try to seek out local newspapers if possible on the net for the area the story comes from. And I read in forums, and blogs.

[mahdisoldier19]

ok read aop news for afghanistan. Thats a good source not true source for instance the video on CBS of the taliban burning the schools. There is no way those men were taliban i know it and others too. The taliban wont run away like in the video they would stand and fight back. Its so sad what CBS is trying to do and its so funny how the video dissapeared from the news in 1 day

[knuckles]

ok read aop news for afghanistan. Thats a good source not true source for instance the video on CBS of the taliban burning the schools. There is no way those men were taliban i know it and others too. The taliban wont run away like in the video they would stand and fight back. Its so sad what CBS is trying to do and its so funny how the video dissapeared from the news in 1 day

Like the leader of the Taliban when the US forces was on him right:rollseyes . The man is still on the run.

[mahdisoldier19]

The man is still on the run? Another topic you have? You just dont quit being an idiotic person and embarresing yourself on this board dont you? For your information that man is In Control of Waziriastan. No one was able to control that area between afghanistan and pakistan but the Talibs currently do.

[ISDhillon]

Gurfateh!

Afganistan used to be a country where honour was very important it was prized above all else but today we see honour being displaced by ego, change is being equated with america and all conspiracy theories give birth to a religion of superstition not Islam, and it is this attitude which cause men to recreate a long gone genre because people are living in the memory of the glorious past which can NEVER be revived but it is the stubborness of the people which will have to be challenged if any progress is going to be made and I am not talking from what I read in the newspaper, my grandfather was stationed in the NWFP and new the psyche of the people of that region very well, I agree though that times have changed since then.

There is no excuse for blowing the statues up in afganistan, there are plenty of people starving in India but that does not mean the babri masjid was attacked because it was taking money away from the people of India, the reason for the demolishon is religion and religion alone any attempt to condone these acts are people protecting their own egos when they know they have done something wrong. If the people of afganistan are needing support then they should ask for it from others, did islam not teach humilty?, Taliban brought primarily fear not security and indirectly fear brought security but ultimately this same fear also brought the destruction of the taliban. When azadi comes to a country such as afganistan then people deliberately rape and loot on purpose because they fear the evolution of society will bring question to the righteousness with which the country had been ruled throughout history.

Further on someone also says that it is ok to destroy the idols because the prophet did this in mecca, with this mentality in my religion I can go out and kill 125000 people for every member of my faith who is killed. Afganistan needs investment in projects which will sustain their economy such as the use of biotechnology for crop diversification because unless we find a miraculous new invention for the poppy the economy of afganistan will not prosper.

Bhul chuk marf karni:)

ISDhillon

[mahdisoldier19]

I dont know who you are but i can tell you dont know nothing about Afghanistan too.

How did the taliban start? Oh thats right 2 girls were raped and kidnapped by 10 men and 30 other mujahadeen led by a man named Mullah omar rescued the 2 girls and hung the 10 men. And yes there is excuse My excuse still stands and whatever you can come up with will not hold for the deaths of innocent children.

btw IN the beginning the taliban wanted the people, Yes they brought security. And btw did you ever talk to poshtun women right now? A growing number want the taliban back. I dont know what mentality your talking about killing 125,000 where did you get that from AKhi?>

Please Dont post on this thread when you know nothing about the country except for CNN POPPY Seeds and thats about it.

[snakelegs]

from what i've read - many afghans were ok with the taliban because the taliban solved the most pressing problem in the country at the time, which was security.
also, they have to be regarded in context of a very conservative society. so by my standards they were horrible, but an afghan might see it differently.

[mahdisoldier19]

Listen Some of you people dont know anything about afghanistan, you just give smart answers to think its this and that. Only Malsidabym is probaly the only person that wants a legitment debate or arguement with true while the rest just talk from their behind. Please refrain from posting useless information in a topic in which you know nothing about.

[Malsidabym]

so by my standards they were horrible, but an afghan might see it differently.

This is an important point. In the west we see things alot differently, and many think we are there now helping. And maybe even some afghans do too. But perhaps alot more afghans than we think don't want our help, from thier perspective perhaps things are fine.

[ISDhillon]

"I dont know who you are but i can tell you dont know nothing about Afghanistan too."

This is true I know nothing about afganistan but I know plenty about the history and the people I know nothing about the 2 girls and the 10 men blah blah blah.

"And btw did you ever talk to poshtun women right now? A growing number want the taliban back."

This is known as social engineering, you send in thugs to mess with the society which portrays a societyin chaos people assume the reason for this is a deficit or change in power (different from what their used too) people then in fear think well we were better of before but don't realise it is these very same people who are sent in to screw with the society undercover. You will have to trust me when I say I know this happens.

"I dont know what mentality your talking about killing 125,000 where did you get that from AKhi?"

I dont know who akhi is, but the reason why I said this was cos I am sikh and their is a famous line from our guru which says "I pitch 1 man against 125000 and only then they call me gobind singh" I was trying to show that I can also take this statement radically and justify wrongdoings.

"Please Dont post on this thread when you know nothing about the country except for CNN POPPY Seeds and thats about it"

Please dont tell me what I can and cant do thanks.

ISDhillon:)

[mahdisoldier19]

Oh Trust me if you were near me you would know what is going on. So i dont want to bring anything personal but if you dont know anything about Afghanistan i will repeat it, Dont Post because your putting up nonsense.

Let me tell you an Afghan Saying

When you speak , speak only truth when it will make a difference, dont speak when it wont make a difference and spread only falsehood.

And I welcome you to this board but on my view i dont follow Sikh Lines, i Follow Islamic Lines

Its obvious that you should study more not just from wikipedia or cnn.

As for the thugs? What thugs those thugs were funded by the US GOVT to fight off an invasion by a soviet superpower. and you call them thugs? I dont know what to tell you except that i feel sorry for you

[ISDhillon]

Satsriakal Mahdisoldier Ji

"Oh Trust me if you were near me you would know what is going on."

What do you mean by this statement?

"Dont Post because your putting up nonsense."

Its not nonsense.

"When you speak , speak only truth when it will make a difference, dont speak when it wont make a difference and spread only falsehood."

I disagree with this statement, tell whats right at all times even if it gets you killed say it and be brash about it once you sacrifice on the alter of whats right then people will learn by example and verily death will become scared of the you, rather than lying to protect your life.

"and I welcome you to this board but on my view i dont follow Sikh Lines, i Follow Islamic Lines"

thats fine but you wanted to know why i wrote that statement in my prior message you can follow what lines you want as long as it does not involve infringing on others including the historical artefacts of other faiths.

"Its obvious that you should study more not just from wikipedia or cnn. "

its obvious that you need to be taught some manners.

"As for the thugs? What thugs those thugs were funded by the US GOVT to fight off an invasion by a soviet superpower. and you call them thugs? I dont know what to tell you except that i feel sorry for you"

This is your typical logic you take what I have said out of context and get yourself more confused because your more content with confrontation than meaningful dialogue, what are you going to teach anyone I suggest you keep silent.:rant:


ISDhillon

[Anonymous1]

:sl:
woah HeiGou....nothing but sand and beautiful mountains???? i think im gonna have to agree with mahdisoldier and say that u should go there before saying stuff(srry if i didnt quote that correctly mahdi)
that was very offending....im afghan and ive met alot of stupid ppl who say the stupidest things but that was one of the most offending:offended:
about the whole taliban blowing up the statues, i have to agree with whoever said, since they were worshipped they should have been destroyed(srry not enough time to go back and check who said that) those statues were of no significance to afghanistan so who cares if they blew them up???
and yah alot of pushtun ppl do want the taliban back and they did provide alot of security
there were still ppl stealing stuff but it was ALOT less than now
the last time i went to afghanistan(2004) everyone was so afraid when wed be coming home late cause of theives and that they might stop the car and take our stuff but back in 2000 when i went that was never an issue, if i remember correctly no one was out that late anyways
and in jalalabd there wasnt even a real police force back in 2004 under karzais leadership:rant:
i wish i had followed up on this thread but i thought itd be over since they are letting him go.:?
mahdisoldier i strongly agree with u that the world should be more informed on the pushtuns views cause thats something that is very important but unfortunetly we hear the views of the other ethnic groups alot more
:sl:

[mahdisoldier19]

I rather Follow the belief of a Poshtun then the belief of a Sikh or someone who has never been to afghanistan. Also from my experience in Paktia , Khost.

[Knut Hamsun]

Mahdi:
Do you post on Ummah.net/forum? There are usually some pretty knowledgable (and argumentative/entertaining) discussions between Afghans there. Some good stuff. Usually in the "current events" section.
yours,
knut

[Malsidabym]

mahdisoldier19 and Anonymous1, hi fellas. I must ask you both, I suspect soldier's answer will differ a little because he has a more direct connection, but I am interested in your answer too anonymous1. So anyway, you both have expressed support for the destruction of the buddists' statues, but wasn't that a violation of what the prophet had taught? I understand that islam teaches to be respectful of other religions. certainly it must not have been much of a concern that anyone would worship the statues as 1)people would not dare do this under sharia law in public, and 2)I doubt there are many buddists in Afghanistan (perhaps mahdisoldier can clarify this point - he would know better than I if any buddists exist there). Thanks.