Afghan Man Faces Death for Allegedly Converting to Christianity

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

What the….I just happened to be browsing this thread and I saw my username and was like where did this come from? What do u mean my threads could be classed the same? could u elaborate? what do u have a problem with?…what I post in this section is from news websites, I don’t write the articles so what do u exactly mean by saying that. I bring the truth if you don’t like it, don’t read it…and if you can’t handle my threads I suggest you stay out of them then! Simple as that…if you can’t handle this forum, then leave. I’ll post what I like as long as they comply with the rules; just because you or anyone else don’t agree with it doesn’t mean I should stop posting them..

I agree. I don't think it's a good idea to get other members into the discussion topic, especially when they aren't present.

 

[Muezzin]

Muezzin, it doesn’t really look like it is just allegations “During the one-day hearing, the defendant confessed that he converted from Islam to Christianity”

My apologies.

Muezzin you really confuse me with your statement “I say abide by the laws of the land, even if one does not agree with them”.

Think about that for a moment. Folks, like me, come to this web-site to try and get a better view of what Islam is about. Time and time again when the excesses of some who claim to be Muslim are pointed out, we are told that those folks aren’t really practicing Islam as it should practiced.

Here we have an example of the most un-Islamic law and you just answer with “I say abide by the laws of the land, even if one does not agree with them”.

Bear in mind that is my personal view, which I am entitled to, and which I have reasons for holding, and which do not represent the majority opinion of Muslims.

So this judge should just follow an unjust law and have this fellow executed????????

Yes. In the English legal system for example the rule of law dictates that so long as an Act is properly passed, judges must enforce it, despite the potential for unjust laws. It's a moral dilemma. I don't agree with the law in question, don't get the wrong idea. I don't agree with killing someone for their faith. I'm saying that if the law of the land is unjust, no amount of outrage (in isolation) will change things. Outrage which then leads to change, through the proper channels, is good.

If I was living in a country I considered to have unjust laws that I could not comply with, I'd move out at the first opportunity. If that was not an option, I'd try to bring about change.

We should ALL be disgusted by laws such as the one this fellow was arrested for breaking.

I don't disagree. I still stand by my statement of abiding by the law, but that's probably because I'm studying law.

Muezzen this type of thing SHOULD stir up trouble. It should stir the outrage in people till maybe there is enough out cry to bring such laws to an end.

Fair enough.

 

[HeiGou]

My friend michael Since yoru religion is so peaceful why dont you look at what happen to the christians that converted to judaism during the middle ages? They didnt even get trials.!

Actually they probably did. But since when does crimes committed 1000 years ago justify bad things now?

 

[HeiGou]

Those who abandon and leave Islam and enter into kufr (disbelief) SHOULD be executed in public.

Why?

I mean, at the time Muhammed lived, Islam was the basis of government. It is not any more. Will this man cease to be a loyal Afghan subject if he converts? Will he work less hard? Will he pay fewer taxes? Will he stop speaking Dari or Pashtun or whatever? It seems an act that has precisely no consequences to anyone but him to me.

 

[Muezzin]

Why?

I mean, at the time Muhammed lived, Islam was the basis of government. It is not any more. Will this man cease to be a loyal Afghan subject if he converts? Will he work less hard? Will he pay fewer taxes? Will he stop speaking Dari or Pashtun or whatever? It seems an act that has precisely no consequences to anyone but him to me.

True. Killing anyone who dares to leave Islam doesn't exactly make Islam look like a peaceful religion to outsiders.

But the rule of law's such a... female dog sometimes.

 

[HeiGou]

True. Killing anyone who dares to leave Islam doesn't exactly make Islam look like a peaceful religion to outsiders.

Well what outsiders think is surely irrelevant. Even I don't think Muslims ought to change because of what outsiders think. God's law is God's law and you all should only care about pleasing Him.

But the rule of law's such a... female dog sometimes.

That is true - but perhaps times have changed too and it should not be considered to be treason any more?

 

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
if it is according to the shraih law that one who converts to other religion from islam should face death then who are we to argue? if this happened back in the Prophet SAW days, then the action may have been more severe, but shariah law is the islamic law that muslims must follow
wasalam

 

[HeiGou]

From the BBC

In quotes: Afghan convert case
The case of Abdul Rahman, an Afghan Muslim who converted to Christianity while living abroad and could face the death penalty in his homeland for rejecting Islam, has caused unease among states involved in peacekeeping in Afghanistan. Here are some reactions:

US UNDER-SECRETARY OF STATE NICHOLAS BURNS

We believe in universal freedoms and freedom of religion is one of them. But I should also note more particularly, as regards this case, that the Afghan constitution as we understand it also provides for freedom of religion... If it is upheld, he will be found to be innocent.

GERMAN DEVELOPMENT MINISTER HEIDEMARIE WIECZOREK-ZEUL

We will do everything possible to save the life of Abdul Rahman. Religious freedom is everybody's right. In this regard I also call on [Afghan] President [Hamid] Karzai.

GERMAN ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH LEADER CARDINAL KARL LEHMANN

German bishops will try to ensure Christians in Islamic countries enjoy the same rights as Muslims have in our country.

ITALIAN FOREIGN MINISTRY STATEMENT

If this news is confirmed, Italy will move at the highest level... to prevent something which is incompatible with the defence of human rights and fundamental freedoms.

FORMER ITALIAN PRESIDENT FRANCESCO COSSIGA

It is not acceptable that our soldiers should put themselves at risk or even sacrifice their lives for a fundamentalist, illiberal regime.

UK RULING LABOUR PARTY MP ALAN SIMPSON

We have to be saying to the government of Afghanistan that it is not the role, the function or the presumption of the UK government to have a presence in Afghanistan to defend an administration that conducts and complies with laws that are brutal in terms that would be judged by the outside international community, and would not be accepted by the Muslim community if they were used in reverse.

AFGHAN PROSECUTOR ABDUL WASI

He would have been forgiven if he changed back. But he said he was a Christian and would always remain one. We are Muslims and becoming a Christian is against our laws. He must get the death penalty.

AFGHAN SUPREME COURT JUDGE ANSARULLAH MAWLAVIZADA

If he doesn't revert back to Islam, he's going to receive the death penalty, according to the law.

AFGHAN ECONOMY MINISTER AMIN FARHANG

The heated and emotional reaction of German politicians is exaggerated and has caused annoyance among Afghans... Of course fanatics demand the death penalty in such cases, but it is very unlikely that it will be imposed on Rahman.
​

 

[HeiGou]

if it is according to the shraih law that one who converts to other religion from islam should face death then who are we to argue? if this happened back in the Prophet SAW days, then the action may have been more severe, but shariah law is the islamic law that muslims must follow

Well I would not argue that you should change a thing. However if it is more complicated than just someone converting - if, as is often claimed, it was a matter of treason, and that treason charge no longer applies, then perhaps the fundamentals of the justification for the death penalty have changed too? So maybe the law does not need to change, but the justification for it does.

What would have been more severe than executing him? Executing him twice?

 

[Cheb]

Well what outsiders think is surely irrelevant. Even I don't think Muslims ought to change because of what outsiders think. God's law is God's law and you all should only care about pleasing Him.

Well said indeed.

That is true - but perhaps times have changed too and it should not be considered to be treason any more?

No we do not adapt religion to make sure everyone is satified by what they feel as right. Religion should not change. Full stop.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Well what outsiders think is surely irrelevant. Even I don't think Muslims ought to change because of what outsiders think. God's law is God's law and you all should only care about pleasing Him.

Ok... who are you, and what have you done to Hei Gou?

That is true - but perhaps times have changed too and it should not be considered to be treason any more?

Phew, I thought the Hei Gou who always made me start debates had disappeared. Well, maybe the country should implement the shari'ah completely before executing people. If tehy're going to a half-baked job, they're going to be everyone's enemy.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Well I would not argue that you should change a thing. However if it is more complicated than just someone converting - if, as is often claimed, it was a matter of treason, and that treason charge no longer applies, then perhaps the fundamentals of the justification for the death penalty have changed too? So maybe the law does not need to change, but the justification for it does.

What would have been more severe than executing him? Executing him twice?

They could have tortured him abu ghraib style and then executed him.

 

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
am just saying that if treason was treated more severely and instantly back in the Prophet SAW time, why does it seem to be a surprise and shock that a man is facing death now? if the shariah law say that he should face death for such action then be it
wasalam

 

[HeiGou]

am just saying that if treason was treated more severely and instantly back in the Prophet SAW time, why does it seem to be a surprise and shock that a man is facing death now? if the shariah law say that he should face death for such action then be it

But my point is that this man is not committing treason now. It may have been treason back then, but Afghanistan does not define itself in purely religious terms any more. It is some other crime, but not treason. So my argument is either they should reconsider the nature of treason (and this is not a popular option around here) or they should call what he did something else besides treason. If that is what the law says, then he is in trouble, I agree. That does not shock me as I have heard of these sorts of things before.

 

[MetSudaisTwice]

salam
isnt turning your back on islam to another religion in islam called treason? he might be classed as a munafiq too
wasalam

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I think the point Hei Gou is that because afghanistan does not implement shari'ah, they shouldn't be executing him. Maybe I am mistaken.

 

[HeiGou]

I think the point Hei Gou is that because afghanistan does not implement shari'ah, they shouldn't be executing him. Maybe I am mistaken.

No, that would be a little too well thought out for me. Besides, thinking what most of you probably would think, if a lot of Shariah is a good thing, then a little cannot be a bad thing can it? It wouldn't even convince me.

My point is that Muhammed created a religion-based society where to convert to another religion was to leave the community and inevitably go to war with the Muslims. Afghanistan is not a religion-based society. It is not clear to me that this man, by converting, will commit treason. Now the first argument would go that if the circumstances of the law have fundamentally changed, if the reasons for implementing it are no longer there, there ought to be a re-think of that law. OK. That argument did not impress. So the second one would be, if you are arguing that this man deserves to die for commiting treason, when manifestly he has not, then you need to find another justification for what you want done. Saying God wants it is always a valid argument in my opinion. Saying it is Sharia is credible to me (not that it matters what I think). But saying it is treason isn't because it just isn't.

 

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

No... i don't like half-baked shari'ah... it is like saying 'Oh Allah, i agree with this point you have made, but i think i know a lil bit more than you on this subject'.
I find it quite insulting... and i hate the government of countries like saudi occupied arabia more than the US government. Grrrrr.... dogs! (and that is being polite).

 

[j4763]

Salaam

Leave him out of this, can't you add to the discussion instead of talking about other members behind their backs

Please leave fightanddieAllah alone. If you have a problem with him then you have a problem with me. He is as you say showing his "Opposing view" against people who discredit and harm innocent muslims. So i dont see anything wrong with him. For people who say what the crusader did to the muslims was hundreds of years ago big deal. FOR YOU its not a big deal. But for Muslims we will never forget what was brought upon us. And please do not argue with Islamic principals because me being once a christian that says Turn your left cheek. No one besides the Pope would ever turn their left cheek. No one that I KNOW OF. So what i will do is go to a Christians home and slap him a few times and see if he turns his other cheek. Chances are He wont.

What the….I just happened to be browsing this thread and I saw my username and was like where did this come from? What do u mean my threads could be classed the same? could u elaborate? what do u have a problem with?…what I post in this section is from news websites, I don’t write the articles so what do u exactly mean by saying that. I bring the truth if you don’t like it, don’t read it…and if you can’t handle my threads I suggest you stay out of them then! Simple as that…if you can’t handle this forum, then leave. I’ll post what I like as long as they comply with the rules; just because you or anyone else don’t agree with it doesn’t mean I should stop posting them..

Woo! Where did I say I had a “problem” with him or his threads?

This thread is also just very similar to many of his threads in an opposite way (“opposing view”).

@Fight&Die4Allah's
I in no way intended to offend you or your threads as they are too very interesting and give information that some how often slips through the media.
Please accept my apology if it did offend.

 

[DaSangarTalib]

apology accepted J4763 and you didnt offend me coz if you did i would have told ya...i was just giving my opinion, thats all