Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?

[HeiGou]

So why are the west trying to change Muslim countries? And it will change... not necessarily by violent means.

Well because by and large the West is uninterested in changing Muslim countries. They do not care what happens in Muslim countries except under extreme provocation - attacks like 9-11 for instance. And because the West knows something about some things. About how to create rich, free and prosperous societies where human rights are, by and large, respected. That is worth teaching other people. You don't think that there is anything in the West Muslims need to learn?

[Muezzin]

You make a good point. Perhaps the west tries to change Muslim countries out of fear. Maybe they are scared of how the growth of Islam will affect their democracies.

Maybe the west has what they believe to be legitimate reasons to change Muslim countries. Some westerners get frustrated with human rights violations, terrorism, etc...

Maybe if a western country give foreign aid to a Muslim country they consider themselves "entitled".

Maybe corporations within western countries want to exploit the resources of Muslim countries

Or maybe certain Western dudes think Islam is the new Communism.

Little do they know that we hate Commies as much as them. A doctor earning the same amount as a janitor? C'mon man! You know how many Muslim doctors there are? :p

[SirZubair]

:sl:

I think BOTH brother Emir Aziz and Nicola should apologise.
The brother for saying things like that, making Islam look bad and Nicola for making fun of Islam. :rant:

I'm sure none of you wanted to say anything offensive but an apology would be mature and respectfully done.

:w:

I dont see any reason for them to apoligise,especially Emir Aziz.

Even though he was being sarcastic,there is truth in it.

For example,as shaykh hamza yusuf said in one of his lectures,during the time he was mauritania,one day a plane flew by and one of the shaykhs started cursing "god bring down that plane and get rid of the kufr..."

And so shaykh hamza said to him "Shaykh...i am one of the people that travels on those planes"

And so the shaykh said "..dont worry,nothing will happen to the plane when you are traveling in it.."

(lol,that story always cracks me up)

But yeah,like i said,even though he was being sarcastic,there is alot of truth in it.

So i say Nay,you owe no1 an apology.

[SirZubair]

here is a pic of a member of the 3rd Mujahideen Infantry Corps anti-tank training.

:giggling:

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D thats funny :okay:

Hey there! Looks like you're enjoying the discussion, but you're not signed up for an account.

When you create an account, you can participate in the discussions and share your thoughts. You also get notifications, here and via email, whenever new posts are made. And you can like posts and make new friends.
Sign Up

[root]

You make a good point. Perhaps the west tries to change Muslim countries out of fear. Maybe they are scared of how the growth of Islam will affect their democracies.

I often wonder (To Myself) how much trouble the world would be in right now if the oil producing countries of the middle east were far more stable than they actually are.

We can talk rights and wrongs and of values until the cows come home. Countries (especially the US) who has an economy built on oil have a need for what these countries have, is it nieve to think perhaps small countries with a lot of oil can bully the US or is the US the bully? Personally, I would be inclined to agree that the US is somewhat of a bully. But then again, looking at the history of the US they did manage to achieve a great nation by uniting it's states where the middle east is broken up to smaller individual countries. Take the development of the EU as another example of countries coming together to form a big state.

As oil begins to deplete in the world, confrontation in my mind is inevitable. If I had a wish It would probably be a world without Oil and the West could simply walk away from the middle east and leave it to it's own fate. the reality we live in just does not allow for this. And yes when it comes down to it, I would rarther place my trust in the US than Iran for example.

Religion is just a game of chess to the big guys, and your all just a pawn caught in belief and a method of control. The president of Iran or the US won't say go fight for me, they would rarther say go fight for God!

[IceQueen~]

Religion is just a game of chess to the big guys, and your all just a pawn caught in belief and a method of control. The president of Iran or the US won't say go fight for me, they would rarther say go fight for God!

well, we'll see insha allah what ahppens when thr truth comes back..

[HeiGou]

As oil begins to deplete in the world, confrontation in my mind is inevitable. If I had a wish It would probably be a world without Oil and the West could simply walk away from the middle east and leave it to it's own fate. the reality we live in just does not allow for this. And yes when it comes down to it, I would rarther place my trust in the US than Iran for example.

Confrontation is not inevitable. Alternatives to oil begin to become competitive at about $50-60 a barrel. Shale oil for instance. Canada is known to have as much as Saudi Arabia. Venezuela the same. Converting from coal for another. The fact is as oil starts to run out the price will go up and the alternatives will start to come on line. Canadian shale oil is getting cheaper all the time due to the technology improving.

The day will come fairly soon when the West will be able to walk away from the Middle East. However that is not really a solution as the problems of the Middle East repeatedly spill into the West. So I think the evitable solution is the Sharon Plan but on a grander scale. People will build fences to keep the Muslims out. And as many Muslims will be moved from one side of the fence to the other as possible. That would stop terrorism in the West. I still do not think this is a sensible solution, but having heard a couple of Western Muslims praise Zarqawi here this morning I am not as opposed to it as I used to be.

[Nicola]

People will build fences to keep the Muslims out. And as many Muslims will be moved from one side of the fence to the other as possible. That would stop terrorism in the West. I still do not think this is a sensible solution, but having heard a couple of Western Muslims praise Zarqawi here this morning I am not as opposed to it as I used to be.

I can see this happening also..but firstly I do believe there will be a clash somewhere along the way...thoughtout all of europe, the tension is building up daily.

What it boils down to is where a Muslims alligence lies...I know that has been made very clear with some Muslims on this forum...but how great is this threat throughout europe..to our national sercurity.

[Muezzin]

Blah blah blah, the war on terror is the biggest joke since the war on drugs.

And really, it has little to do with the topic at hand.

[searchingsoul]

The president of Iran or the US won't say go fight for me, they would rarther say go fight for God!

I think you see the bigger picture.

[searchingsoul]

So why are the west trying to change Muslim countries? And it will change... not necessarily by violent means.

What means are you suggesting?

[Nicola]

I think you see the bigger picture.

exactly I believe this is a religous war. We are drawing to the end.:happy:

[searchingsoul]

exactly I believe this is a religous war. We are drawing to the end.:happy:

The end of what? The end of the world?

[Muezzin]

The end of what? The end of the world?

The end of my tether more like.

People, get back to the topic please. It's not about religious wars or the mujahideen, it's about people complaining about the west yet still remaining here by their own volition.

[Nicola]

The end of what? The end of the world?

yes..I believe so, we are heading for nuclear war.

Mk 13:20; Rev 6:8; Rev 9:18; Zech 14:8,12.

[Z]

Salaam.

I don't hate the West.

[searchingsoul]

I'm going to throw out a question to anyone who immigrated to a western country, and hates it. Did you expect to hate the western society before you moved to it?

[Ghazi]

I'm going to throw out a question to anyone who immigrated to a western country, and hates it. Did you expect to hate the western society before you moved to it?

:sl:

I was a baby had to move here cause the muslims couldn't get along.

[whitemuslimah]

Why do some Muslims still live in western societies when they oppose western governments and western ways of life?

I can’t understand why some who live in Britain/USA preach so much hatred for the countries they reside in.
I know some who preach this hatred are merely immature and misguide Muslims (imo) and many still to young to leave home but many of these still continue to live in western lands well after they become adult.

So if your living in a Western country and hate there ways what is your reason for staying and not leaving for a Muslim country?

I am not saying all Muslims hate living in the west

i haven't read the entire thread, but just wanted to say that no matter how much ppl in the west and usa hate the governments or way of life, i am sure deep inside they are greatful for the opportunities in life that their country has given to them (e.g. quality education, welfare state etc) .

[IbnAbdulHakim]

i haven't read the entire thread, but just wanted to say that no matter how much ppl in the west and usa hate the governments or way of life, i am sure deep inside they are greatful for the opportunities in life that their country has given to them (e.g. quality education, welfare state etc) .

:sl:

Yes, we are very greatful indeed. Alhamdullilah, it is only Allah who gives us the good we recieve, only thru his blessings and mercy :)

:w:

[akulion]

East or West - Allah is the best!!

[scentsofjannah]

:sl:

i live in the west and i like it here my only problem is with some people...they can be very racist and prejudiced.I don't intend to leave the uk for good and saudiarabia is the last place i would consider making hijrah to. Those of us who were born and raised in the west have an obligation to contribute to our societies..hijrah isnt a must unless you're being persecuted and you're not allowed to practise your deen...ive come across muslims who say hijrah is a must we have to live in muslim countries so on and so forth but if that were the case then what about the chinese muslims who are more than 20 million? they dont have an alternative. no muslim country would be able to absorb immigration of that scale.They can only better their communities and empower themselves and teach islam by words and by action to the majority nonmuslim population and live in peace and harmony with them and not be affected by the negative aspects of others cultures.

Also even though i like living here since theres more opportunity..i don't like everything about british culture like the boozing ...the scantily clad women..also the high crime rate and the rising drug addiction problems..etc..i pray a sincere politician comes to power and sorts this out...i dont expect anything to be done about alcohol its their culture and their lives revolve around pubs...so what would i as a muslim female do? be more cautious and stay at home when the drunks roam the streets :) ..peaceout all

[searchingsoul]

East or West - Allah is the best!!

Very cute!

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Well because by and large the West is uninterested in changing Muslim countries. They do not care what happens in Muslim countries except under extreme provocation - attacks like 9-11 for instance. And because the West knows something about some things. About how to create rich, free and prosperous societies where human rights are, by and large, respected. That is worth teaching other people. You don't think that there is anything in the West Muslims need to learn?

Oh i'm really tempted to turn this into another debate about the legitemacy of the war in iraq... but I think i will have to refrain!... and it is relevant, trust me.

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Or maybe certain Western dudes think Islam is the new Communism.

Little do they know that we hate Commies as much as them. A doctor earning the same amount as a janitor? C'mon man! You know how many Muslim doctors there are? :p

Lol...

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Oh i'm really tempted to turn this into another debate about the legitemacy of the war in iraq... but I think i will have to refrain!... and it is relevant, trust me.

:sl:

Let me giv u a hand!

I see no DEVELOPMENT AT ALL of HUMAN RIGHTS in IRAQ unless you consider a complete breakdown in society and increased rate of crime and deformities a development?

:w:

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

That wasn't what i was going to say but BARAK-ALLAHU FEEKUM!
:w:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:sl:

Oh and the west has never helped muslim countries improve, i shud also mention that :)

:w:

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Shaykh Ibn ‘Uthaymeen said:
...
There are two basic conditions which must be met before staying in kaafir countries:

The first condition is: that the person must be secure in his religious commitment, so that he has enough knowledge, faith and will power to ensure that he will adhere firmly to his religion and beware of deviating or going astray, and that he has an attitude of enmity and hatred of the kaafirs and will not befriend them and love them, for befriending them and loving them are things that contradicts faith.

How many people here fulfil that condition?

Peace

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I have an attitude and emnity to their way of life and government, but I don't hate random kaafirs for no reason.
And we shouldn't be here unless we are here for da'wah reasons. Which is why i'm leaving soon insha-Allah.
-Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

:peace:

Gibson whats the reason that sheikh gave for stating that?
I dont feel hatred of enmity towards kaafir unless they go against my beliefs, then i just digust there actions but not them. Its the sin i hate not the sinner!

:peace:

PS: Make dua i also wish to move asap, preferably to saudi, if not then sharjah or egypt or sumthin :)

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Don't go to sharjah... it's bad enough we live in the same city now!

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Don't go to sharjah... it's bad enough we live in the same city now!

:sl:

When will you stop confusing me :heated: :heated: lol...

:w:

[HeiGou]

Oh and the west has never helped muslim countries improve, i shud also mention that

Never? No US aid has ever gone to a Muslim country or at least never helped it at all? No Westerners have ever built institutions of Higher education in the Middle East which have helped Muslims - like the American University in Cairo for instance? No trade with the West has ever made Muslims richer? No military intervention by the West has ever helped a Muslim country?

Keep saying that. It is a sure way to make sure none will ever try again.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Gibson whats the reason that sheikh gave for stating that?

I have no idea. It reads like a simple case of promoting hatred.

I dont feel hatred of enmity towards kaafir unless they go against my beliefs, then i just digust there actions but not them. Its the sin i hate not the sinner!

That's certainly admirable. On this point I definitely agree with you and not with the sheikh, whose ideas I find positively disturbing.

PS: Make dua i also wish to move asap, preferably to saudi, if not then sharjah or egypt or sumthin :)

I've lost count of the number of Muslims on this thread who've said things like this. Why live in the West in the first place?

Peace

[IbnAbdulHakim]

Never? No US aid has ever gone to a Muslim country or at least never helped it at all? No Westerners have ever built institutions of Higher education in the Middle East which have helped Muslims - like the American University in Cairo for instance? No trade with the West has ever made Muslims richer? No military intervention by the West has ever helped a Muslim country?

Keep saying that. It is a sure way to make sure none will ever try again.

:offended: i was only thinking about the destruction in iraq, but look they say they are trying to help but instead they leave iraqi's in total and utter chaos, and whats with the whole gitmo business, and whys most of them muslim in gitmo :anger:

[IbnAbdulHakim]

I've lost count of the number of Muslims on this thread who've said things like this. Why live in the West in the first place?

:peace:


born and raised here, didnt hav a choice :)


:peace:

[bint_muhammed]

Greetings,



How many people here fulfil that condition?

Peace

i completely disagree with the sheikh on the second condition as we have no rite to hate the kufrs coz at the end of da day we aint the judges of who is decent and who is not. i kno a lot of non-muslims who are very decent than some so-caled muslims, and i do hav friend who aint muslims!

[R_Mujahed]

Muslims drew the first map of the world! and they labeled S up or what is know today as N and labeled N as what is known today as S... Therefore E was known as W and W was known as E.... :giggling:

So I do not even live in the West! In reference to the Islamic Map we are living in the East! :happy:

[j4763]

Muslims drew the first map of the world! and they labeled S up or what is know today as N and labeled N as what is known today as S... Therefore E was known as W and W was known as E.... :giggling:

So I do not even live in the West! In reference to the Islamic Map we are living in the East! :happy:

Really? Do you have a source for this statement?

For all those born in western countries and who wish to leave soon (because of your dislike) why did your parents (or grand parents…etc), assuming they too are Muslims come to the west in the first place?

[Woodrow]

Really? Do you have a source for this statement?

For all those born in western countries and who wish to leave soon (because of your dislike) why did your parents (or grand parents…etc), assuming they too are Muslims come to the west in the first place?

Addressing the off topic question first. A map is a navigation tool. A person makes and uses a map to get from point A to point B. To be of value a map has to be oriented to the current knowledge of those who will be using it. Makes sense that a map from that area of the world and that particular time would be oriented South as most travels and exploration would have been in a southerly route.

Now, for those Muslims who gripe about a Country and do not leave it. That is not even a Muslim issue. All people have complaints about their local governments. If they can tolerate what they do not like, they do nothing. If the conditions are intolerable they will first try to change the system. If they discover they can't change it, they do leave, if they are able to.

[Rou]

this isnt about hating the west its the ideals that come from the west...just ebacuse i dont beleive in the goverments way of thinking does not mean i will leave. instead i will tell the people the truth about the ones who lead them and spread the word about the truth that they unleash in there name in the middle east...

"just beacuse a fruit from a tree is bad you do not cut down the tree"

people who are white and black have a problem with the way the west acts around the world will you tell them to leave aswell!? then dont tell us...

we like them wish for there to be peace in the world and dont want this goverment or any other commiting injustices around the world in our name...

if you like there polcies so much why dont you go fight in iraq!

[bint_muhammed]

For all those born in western countries and who wish to leave soon (because of your dislike) why did your parents (or grand parents…etc), assuming they too are Muslims come to the west in the first place?[/QUOTE]


who's leaving?:uhwhat

[j4763]

For all those born in western countries and who wish to leave soon (because of your dislike) why did your parents (or grand parents…etc), assuming they too are Muslims come to the west in the first place?

who's leaving?:uhwhat

All the ones who have stated throughout this thread that they will be "hopefully" leaving Britian or the west for some muslim country, thats who!

[Ghazi]

For all those born in western countries and who wish to leave soon (because of your dislike) why did your parents (or grand parents…etc), assuming they too are Muslims come to the west in the first place?

who's leaving?:uhwhat[/QUOTE]

:sl:

Inshallah I'll make hijra simple reason fear for my iman.

[j4763]

this isnt about hating the west its the ideals that come from the west...just ebacuse i dont beleive in the goverments way of thinking does not mean i will leave.

This isn't about the western gov, but about the western society.

instead i will tell the people the truth about the ones who lead them and spread the word about the truth that they unleash in there name in the middle east...

If you say so...

"just beacuse a fruit from a tree is bad you do not cut down the tree"

No, but you woudn't eat that fruit either would you?

people who are white and black have a problem with the way the west acts around the world will you tell them to leave aswell!? then dont tell us...

People of all race's are happy to live in the west, Islam is not a race.

we like them wish for there to be peace in the world and dont want this goverment or any other commiting injustices around the world in our name...

Dont we all (yes even westerners).

if you like there polcies so much why dont you go fight in iraq!

I like the west way of life, the freedom. Not there polcies, that why i vote (and can) against them.

[j4763]

who's leaving?:uhwhat

:sl:

Inshallah I'll make hijra simple reason fear for my iman.

:? You what?

[Ghazi]

:sl:

Migration for the sake of allah.

[root]

born and raised here, didnt hav a choice

Do you know anyone who had a choice like?

[bint_muhammed]

[QUOTE=j4763;316870]This isn't about the western gov, but about the western society.



If you say so...



No, but you woudn't eat that fruit either would you?

EXACTLY! we arnt leaving the country HOWEVER doesnt mean we accept all the gov stuff either u get it!!!!!!!!!!!:rollseyes

[bint_muhammed]

for sum living in dis country is not up to their decision, i dont personally mind dis country however, wen i finish uni, i' gonna travel around da world and see where i lyk it!

[bint_muhammed]

Do you know anyone who had a choice like?

who asked u i'm sure dis was aimed at muslims!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!:rollseyes :rollseyes

[primitivefuture]

I think root should be banned. She needs to get a life at stop coming a Muslim forums to bash Muslims.

[j4763]

I think root should be banned. She needs to get a life at stop coming a Muslim forums to bash Muslims.

I beg to differ.

She gives a differnet point of view, which is needed in a discussion.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

this isnt about hating the west its the ideals that come from the west...just ebacuse i dont beleive in the goverments way of thinking does not mean i will leave. instead i will tell the people the truth about the ones who lead them and spread the word about the truth that they unleash in there name in the middle east...

Lots of Westerners object to the way their governments act too. The recent and ongoing war in Iraq is the least popular war of modern times. During the leadup to it, Britain experienced the largest mass protests in its history.

people who are white and black have a problem with the way the west acts around the world will you tell them to leave aswell!? then dont tell us...

The point you don't seem to have grasped is that there's a difference between objecting to government policies, and fundamentally objecting to secularism and democracy, as most Muslims do.

if you like there polcies so much why dont you go fight in iraq!

Who said anything about liking Western government policies?

I think root should be banned. She needs to get a life at stop coming a Muslim forums to bash Muslims.

Firstly, root is male, not female.

Secondly, it's not up to you who is allowed on the forum and who isn't. If you object to somebody's posts, report them to the mods.

Thirdly, at least root has never posted hate-filled drivel such as this.

Peace

[Lateralus63]

Czgibson, you have raised an incredibly valid point which in my opinion, needs to be thought up about VERY carefully by the muslim world.

We're quick to criticise western ways of life, smoking, drinking, sex, whatever. If you dont like it, then get OUT. Stop being a hypocrite. "I hate USA, but i live in USA." Its so hypocritical. I believe the whole of the muslim world should pull back, into their OWN lands, and start their own revolutions. Instead of this, immigration to other lands (which blatantly corrupts one's practice of his religion) and then complaining about it once your there.

Like that saying goes, "Dont bite the hand that feeds."

[Dawud_uk]

Really? Do you have a source for this statement?

For all those born in western countries and who wish to leave soon (because of your dislike) why did your parents (or grand parents…etc), assuming they too are Muslims come to the west in the first place?

as a revert mine are from the West already so question doesnt apply to me.

[dishdash]

I believe the whole of the muslim world should pull back, into their OWN lands, and start their own revolutions.

Moreover, let the revolutions start in each and every Muslim's heart, wherever they may be around the world. Once you have perfected the deen in yourself; once you have ironed out the hypocricies and excuses; once you have cured the diseases of your own hearts - THEN start to work on your family. Once they are free of that very same disease, move on to your immediate community.

Ahhhh... wouldn't it be nice....

[root]

Primitivefuture: - I think root should be banned. She needs to get a life at stop coming a Muslim forums to bash Muslims.

Don't you mean:

"I think Root should be banned. "He" has a different opinion to me":thankyou:

[dishdash]

Haha! Now now - I don't care WHO takes the moral highground here but please, at least one of you - it's pretty empty right about now.

Root - I have absolutely no problems with your posts for the record. There might be times when it's indelicately put, but I think if read assuming the best (rather than the default defensive position that many here feel obliged to crawl through life in) there's enough sincerity to warrant treating your posts with respect, patience and intelligence.

I apologise for these brothers and sisters. You may not take Islam from your time here, but if at the very least you take away the knowlege that not all Moslems are bad-mannered sociopaths, then we have all advanced a step in the right direction.

[scentsofjannah]

Greetings,



How many people here fulfil that condition?

Peace

hello there gibson that individual doesn't represent mainstream Islam and besides why should i hate kaafirs? There is no where in the Qur'an where Allah tells us to hate them or not befriend them...sure the act of kufr ie disbelieving is wrong but in the end we have to be true representatives of Islam and teach nonmuslims about Islam and our morals through words and even better actions.

[czgibson]

Greetings,

hello there gibson that individual doesn't represent mainstream Islam and besides why should i hate kaafirs? There is no where in the Qur'an where Allah tells us to hate them or not befriend them...

How about here:

O you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians as Awliyaa’ (friends, protectors, helpers), they are but Awliyaa’ of each other. And if any amongst you takes them (as Awliyaa’), then surely, he is one of them. Verily, Allaah guides not those people who are the Zaalimoon (polytheists and wrongdoers and unjust). [al-Maa’idah 5:51]

I grant that it doesn't say to hate kaffirs, but it does warn against befriending them.

Peace

[IceQueen~]

i remember reading on a poster up in college once.
somebody saying go home to a refugee.
underneath it was written he would if he could..
what i wanna say is that tell america to get out of all the muslim countries its involved in so we can live in peace in our own homelands...

[HeiGou]

i remember reading on a poster up in college once.
somebody saying go home to a refugee.
underneath it was written he would if he could..
what i wanna say is that tell america to get out of all the muslim countries its involved in so we can live in peace in our own homelands...

So you are saying that Muslims live in America, because there are Americans in Muslim countries? How does that make sense? People are dying to get into the West - literally, they wash up on beaches in Spain every day.

Which Muslim countries do you think America is involved in? I'll grant Iraq and Afghanistan. But their soldiers are out of Saudi Arabia and they have little presence in the rest of the Muslim world (a few in Bahrain admittedly). And most of those regimes were anti-American and came to power in coups aimed at driving America's friends out of power. Why not live in Niger? Or Morocco? Or Pakistan?

[Iconoclast]

To live somewhere is not a choice for all.......although how they live is thier choice.......

[Woodrow]

To live somewhere is not a choice for all.......although how they live is thier choice.......

Those are words worth remembering. Shukran for posting them.

[dishdash]

hello there gibson that individual doesn't represent mainstream Islam and besides why should i hate kaafirs? There is no where in the Qur'an where Allah tells us to hate them or not befriend them...sure the act of kufr ie disbelieving is wrong but in the end we have to be true representatives of Islam and teach nonmuslims about Islam and our morals through words and even better actions.

Just to let you know sister, any avatar that is a resemblance of a human will be deleted by the moderators - that includes yours! :)

Subhanallah...

[Rou]

This isn't about the western gov, but about the western society..

and whats your point who said they hate the people its the ideals and the ideals are layed out by the governing powers heance the goverment...you trying to make this into a hating the western people!?? who hates western people? i dont i just dont like the western polcies or the goverment...

think what you want but this aint about race or religon its a way of thinking and the way of thinking the goverment is implementing across western lands is sick and its a lie... they kill and rape in the name of all who live in the west (yes including all us westerners)

and that should not be allowed beacuse we all want peace not greed.

If you say so....

yeah i do thanks...

No, but you woudn't eat that fruit either would you?

nope i would nt until it was eddeble...why would you eat that fruit!? guess so..

if you accept the things that this goverment does in the middle east then thats your choice butthats exactly what im against that type of blind i dont care about anyone but myself attitude.

People of all race's are happy to live in the west, Islam is not a race.
.

never said islam was a race... why? did you say islam dont wanna be in the west1? nope you said muslims... and besides muslims or islam dont have a problem with the west its quite the opposite... but anyhow

Dont we all (yes even westerners)..

yeah so?

I like the west way of life, the freedom. Not there polcies, that why i vote (and can) against them.

lol and? whs trying to take your freedom? whos trying to tell you to live any way diffrent?

no one cares how the west lives thats there choice...they care how they live as the west is sticking its fist in other peoples faces...for no reason..with made up excuses that dont exist all for greed...

if the west dont want issues they should leave the middle east alone..simple..

[Rou]

Greetings,


Lots of Westerners object to the way their governments act too. The recent and ongoing war in Iraq is the least popular war of modern times. During the leadup to it, Britain experienced the largest mass protests in its history.

i know...thats what i said...

The point you don't seem to have grasped is that there's a difference between objecting to government policies, and fundamentally objecting to secularism and democracy, as most Muslims do. .

secularism? so muslims are religous and? thats life some people are and so,me people arent..no one trys tochange the people in the west no muslim is attacking the west to make it more religous...

as for democracy it depends what you mean muslims dont have a problem with what democracy truly is and what it stands for...they have a problem with the democracy that the west sells...like the democracy that is going on in iraq right now...

im muslim i have no problem with true democracy...i have a problem with the shrad that the west implicate in the name of democracy to spread there power...

[/QUOTE]

[The Duke]

i'll stay where i am n no1 cn get rid of me!

I'm sure if the police knocked on your door they'd be pretty persuasive.

[Rou]

I grant that it doesn't say to hate kaffirs, but it does warn against befriending them.

Peace

no acctully this verse warns of keeping them as close friends a word for close friends should i say that is derived from arabic that is to keep someone so close you can trust them with anything. the correct translation of this can also be protector , someone who would give there life for you asthere is no direct word for this in english it has been translated as friend however the correct translation would be protector...

to look for protection with christians and jews is what has been said not to do as there will be no protection...

[Lateralus63]

Moreover, let the revolutions start in each and every Muslim's heart, wherever they may be around the world. Once you have perfected the deen in yourself; once you have ironed out the hypocricies and excuses; once you have cured the diseases of your own hearts - THEN start to work on your family. Once they are free of that very same disease, move on to your immediate community.

Ahhhh... wouldn't it be nice....

It would be nice. If it was possible

Remember the prophet (s) left makkah for a reason. Think about it.

[SirZubair]

I think root should be banned. She needs to get a life at stop coming a Muslim forums to bash Muslims.

I can point out a few reasons why i think you should be banned.

So stop being childish and move on.

[primitivefuture]

Supporting justice is childish? Tell that to all the Muslim brothers who died fighting to protect their children and Islam. You are being foolish, brother.

[SirZubair]

Supporting justice is childish? Tell that to all the Muslim brothers who died fighting to protect their children and Islam. You are being foolish, brother.

No,im calling your behavior childish because you are pointing out who should be banned,when you havent exactly been behaving yourself on this forum.

If you are willing to practise what you are preaching,then carry on.

If not,then stop it,for your sake.

[bint_muhammed]

we dont hate non-muslims however we wouldnt call them brother or sister!

[bint_muhammed]

I'm sure if the police knocked on your door they'd be pretty persuasive.

i don't think so! the police will hav no rite to chuk us out!

[bint_muhammed]

It would be nice. If it was possible

Remember the prophet (s) left makkah for a reason. Think about it.

bt he didnt leave for good!

[bint_muhammed]

you kno wats funny its like the non-muslims want all muslim to leave the west! guess wat dat aint gonna happen!!!!!!

[Trumble]

as for democracy it depends what you mean muslims dont have a problem with what democracy truly is and what it stands for...they have a problem with the democracy that the west sells...like the democracy that is going on in iraq right now...

As far as I am aware what is going on in Iraq right now is that an elected parliament, with many members from all the major ethnic, religious and political groups, are meeting to approve Iraq's first full-term government since Saddam was ousted. Sounds like democracy to me. The electoral turnout was very high, and many of those who didn't vote failed to do so only because they were threatened by the so-called "resistance".

I by no means approve of everything happening in Iraq, and indeed much of US foreign policy in general, but I see no reason to think the Iraqi government is anything other than democratic. It is certainly far more legitimate (in the sense of being there as a result of the will of the people) than Saddam's regime ever was.

I would point out, also, that the whole reason for the current problems in Palestine is that a Hamas government was democratically elected using exactly the same process.

[SirZubair]

we dont hate non-muslims however we wouldnt call them brother or sister!

I call non-muslims brothers too.

you kno wats funny its like the non-muslims want all muslim to leave the west! guess wat dat aint gonna happen!!!!!!

No,it isnt going to happen.

And erm,..where did you get that idea from?That non-muslims want Muslims to leave the west?

You're thinking too much sister.:?

[HeiGou]

i don't think so! the police will hav no rite to chuk us out!

Every single study I have seen points to rising support for expelling Muslims and declining support for pretty much anything else to do with Muslims. This is now becoming a serious problem in the West. Take this one from Germany this week,

Germans negative on Islam, poll shows

18 May 2006

BERLIN - Germans are growing increasingly negative over Islam and concern is rising over the country's Muslim minority, a recently released poll shows.

"If one looks at this from a pessimistic viewpoint it could be seen as the start of a downward spiral toward conflict," said the Allensbach polling agency who conducted the survey for the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper.

Asked if they though Christianity and Islamic could co-exist peacefully, 61 per cent of those surveyed said they believed there would always be "major conflicts" between both faiths.

Some 91 per cent said they associated Islam with oppression of women, up from 85 per cent in 2004.

The statement that Islam was dominated by fanaticism was shared by 83 per cent, compared to 75 per cent two years ago, the poll showed.

A total of 71 per cent said Islam was intolerant, up from 66 per cent in 2004.

Asked if there should be a ban on the building of mosques in Germany as long as the building of churches in some Islamic states is forbidden, 56 per cent agreed, said the poll.

There is even considerable backing for ending Germany's constitutional right of freedom of religion with regard to Islam, the poll showed.

Asked if strict limits should be imposed on the practice of Islam in Germany to protect the country, 40 per cent said they would support such moves.

A total of 56 per cent said they believed "a clash of civilizations" had already begun, up from 46 per cent in 2004, the poll results showed.

"The clash of civilizations has already begun in the minds of (German) citizens," concluded the Allensbach Institute.

There are about 3.5 million Muslims living in Germany out of a total population of 82 million. Turks are the biggest minority and number about 2.5 million.

DPA

I keep saying this is serious and people keep ignoring me. But it is. When the Spanish kicked out the Muslims I bet some of them said that the Spanish had no right to do so. A lot of Jews in Germany in 1932 said the same thing.

[dishdash]

we dont hate non-muslims however we wouldnt call them brother or sister!

Not true. I call my brother brother...

[KAding]

Every single study I have seen points to rising support for expelling Muslims and declining support for pretty much anything else to do with Muslims. This is now becoming a serious problem in the West. Take this one from Germany this week,

Germans negative on Islam, poll shows

18 May 2006

BERLIN - Germans are growing increasingly negative over Islam and concern is rising over the country's Muslim minority, a recently released poll shows.

"If one looks at this from a pessimistic viewpoint it could be seen as the start of a downward spiral toward conflict," said the Allensbach polling agency who conducted the survey for the Frankfurter Allgemeine newspaper.

Asked if they though Christianity and Islamic could co-exist peacefully, 61 per cent of those surveyed said they believed there would always be "major conflicts" between both faiths.

Some 91 per cent said they associated Islam with oppression of women, up from 85 per cent in 2004.

The statement that Islam was dominated by fanaticism was shared by 83 per cent, compared to 75 per cent two years ago, the poll showed.

A total of 71 per cent said Islam was intolerant, up from 66 per cent in 2004.

Asked if there should be a ban on the building of mosques in Germany as long as the building of churches in some Islamic states is forbidden, 56 per cent agreed, said the poll.

There is even considerable backing for ending Germany's constitutional right of freedom of religion with regard to Islam, the poll showed.

Asked if strict limits should be imposed on the practice of Islam in Germany to protect the country, 40 per cent said they would support such moves.

A total of 56 per cent said they believed "a clash of civilizations" had already begun, up from 46 per cent in 2004, the poll results showed.

"The clash of civilizations has already begun in the minds of (German) citizens," concluded the Allensbach Institute.

There are about 3.5 million Muslims living in Germany out of a total population of 82 million. Turks are the biggest minority and number about 2.5 million.

DPA

I keep saying this is serious and people keep ignoring me. But it is. When the Spanish kicked out the Muslims I bet some of them said that the Spanish had no right to do so. A lot of Jews in Germany in 1932 said the same thing.

Do you have a source for this article? I find the results very disturbing!

[HeiGou]

Do you have a source for this article? I find the results very disturbing!

Sorry. Now the rules explicitly say to include sources too!

http://www.expatica.com/source/site_...%2C+poll+shows

But I think the original study comes from Frankfurter Allgemeine

[SirZubair]

Not true. I call my brother brother...

I call this brother a brother even though he isnt my brother.

..and believe it or not,even though he makes fun of me alot :rollseyes i love him like a real brother.

[Nicola]

I keep saying this is serious and people keep ignoring me. But it is. When the Spanish kicked out the Muslims I bet some of them said that the Spanish had no right to do so. A lot of Jews in Germany in 1932 said the same thing.

There will come a breaking point in europe.... and I don't think it's that far into the future...

[snakelegs]

There will come a breaking point in europe.... and I don't think it's that far into the future...

because the reaction was so predictable, i think the publishing of the mohammad cartoons was partially to strengthen these forces in europe.
i think the backlash has already begun.

[scentsofjannah]

Just to let you know sister, any avatar that is a resemblance of a human will be deleted by the moderators - that includes yours! :)

Subhanallah...

that avatar is FROM this site..if they didnt want people to use it..and they saw it as wrong..they wouldnt put it right? i like and ill use it..and no im not going to hell because i use such things...peace

[SirZubair]

DishDash has a point .. (he always does) :statisfie

[scentsofjannah]

Greetings,


How about here:



I grant that it doesn't say to hate kaffirs, but it does warn against befriending them.

Peace

That verse was revealed after the battle of Uhud..Allah revealed this verse reminding the believers they should not seek protection from others but they should protect themselves...the word wali means patrons and protectors.

Allah doesn't forbid us to befriend christians and jews..as long as we hold strong to our faith..many places Allah tells us to treat decent jews and christians kindly like in this verse .

[Allah forbids you not with regard to those who fight you not for your faith, nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them. For Allah loves those who are just. Allah only forbids you with regard to those who fight you for your faith, and drive you out of your homes and support others in driving you out, from turning to them for protection (or taking them as wali). Those who seek their protection they are indeed wrong- doers.] (Al-Mumtahinah 60: 8-9)

Also our Prophet treated muslims and nonmuslims in the same manner you can read a short biography of him by a nonmuslim here http://cwis.usc.edu/dept/MSA/fundame...ofprophet.html

[SirZubair]

Brothers and sisters,muslims and non-muslims,children of all ages,..

I will today present to you an article written by a good friend of mine,who goes by the name of AFROZ ALI,who is the founder of the Al Ghazzali Centre In Sydney ( www.alghazzali.org ) Regarding Friendship with Non-muslims According To The Quran.

So please,take your time in reading it,and Insha'allah some of you might Benefit from it.

Wa'salaam.

CLICK HERE

[cleo]

Well i agree with that. Just trying to find out the reason why some members choose to still live in western countrys even tho they apparently hate it, as I read many a time in many posts, posted by members. I fully understand that there are many who are quite happy in there western countries.

I was born here. I remember a time we were free. We could go to forests, which is mostly closed now. We could travel without ID, papers, and answer to no one. A person was responsible for their actions. not told how to think and act. There was respect of your parents, and someone was always home with a warm meal. We had morals, mostly, because we were taught to. Now it is sex, sex, and drugs. It is not the country I grew up in. They are just memories. I don't hate this beautiful country, I dispise what man has made it....and it is lost.

[Rou]

As far as I am aware what is going on in Iraq right now is that an elected parliament, with many members from all the major ethnic, religious and political groups, are meeting to approve Iraq's first full-term government since Saddam was ousted. Sounds like democracy to me. The electoral turnout was very high, and many of those who didn't vote failed to do so only because they were threatened by the so-called "resistance".

I by no means approve of everything happening in Iraq, and indeed much of US foreign policy in general, but I see no reason to think the Iraqi government is anything other than democratic. It is certainly far more legitimate (in the sense of being there as a result of the will of the people) than Saddam's regime ever was.

I would point out, also, that the whole reason for the current problems in Palestine is that a Hamas government was democratically elected using exactly the same process.

there is alot that is going on iraq...and no its not democracy...a goverment that is put in place in these circumstances is in no favour to the people...the attroicties they have suffered and are suffering are in no way be questioned by that goverment and neither will they... as for wether this is better than saddams reign i am no fan of his sick deprived mind but no i can not say it is any better now...

less people have roofs over there heads there are more dead people and suffering than before, less medical facilties than before and people are living in a state of war and constant fear now more than they were when saddam was around!?

the goverment that is in place has been chosen by the people!?? democraticlly put in!? think....

do you have any idea what state iraq is in!? what suffering the people havesen? they dont care who rules they just want some kind of normalty...

a goverment that plays ball with the west is what will be in place of saddam who did not play ball..

a goverment more willing to take o the dress and ideas of the west that is all...

the people will still be under control...

The lash has not been removed... the owner has changed thats alll...

ots easy to sit here and say oh theres a goverment in place a democratic one that will make it all better...

no it wont...

tukey is democratic...but what has that done to islam? we have our culture to protect and the form of democracy that comes from the hands of america and britan is there form it has no place for cultural diffrences...

you play ball and accept our ways or your not democratic...

thats a spread of a reigme not democracy...

no one wants war or undemocratic acts but a people must be allowed to developp in there own rights not be flushed with western ideals and products and tv shows to be just like the west and that is what this nice free! demoocratic goverment will briing to the iraqis...via there american oil trading masters...

well lets hope not lets hope they all live happily ever after...

[HeiGou]

no one wants war or undemocratic acts but a people must be allowed to developp in there own rights not be flushed with western ideals and products and tv shows to be just like the west and that is what this nice free! demoocratic goverment will briing to the iraqis...via there american oil trading masters

What is wrong with being "flushed" with Western ideals and products and TV shows? The US is not forcing people to watch that garbage. They do so because they want to. They do so even though it is illegal in many Muslim countries to do so. They do not get it of terrestrial TV - which is mainly government-run - but of satellite TV. They choose to watch it. They pay to watch it. If they did not like it, they would not watch it. Are you seriously suggesting people ought to be forced not to watch pay-TV? If so, how can you stop them?

[Trumble]

the goverment that is in place has been chosen by the people!?? democraticlly put in!? think....

Yes, it was. Why would you think otherwise? Final turnout was around 57% (although initial claims were somewhat higher), which is the sort of figure you would expect in Western countries - although in those, of course, there are no threats of being murdered if you do.

do you have any idea what state iraq is in!? what suffering the people havesen? they dont care who rules they just want some kind of normalty...

If they didn't care, why did 57% of them turn out to vote for their preferred candidates? They could have just stayed at home.

a goverment that plays ball with the west is what will be in place of saddam who did not play ball..

a goverment more willing to take o the dress and ideas of the west that is all...

Looking at its composition, I find that highly unlikely. The dominant faction is the Shia United Iraqi Alliance, its candidates all sponsored by the Grand Ayatollah Ali Sistani. Saddam's regime was far more likely to "take to the dress and ideas of the West"!

[bint_muhammed]

As far as I am aware what is going on in Iraq right now is that an elected parliament, with many members from all the major ethnic, religious and political groups, are meeting to approve Iraq's first full-term government since Saddam was ousted. Sounds like democracy to me. The electoral turnout was very high, and many of those who didn't vote failed to do so only because they were threatened by the so-called "resistance".

I by no means approve of everything happening in Iraq, and indeed much of US foreign policy in general, but I see no reason to think the Iraqi government is anything other than democratic. It is certainly far more legitimate (in the sense of being there as a result of the will of the people) than Saddam's regime ever was.

I would point out, also, that the whole reason for the current problems in Palestine is that a Hamas government was democratically elected using exactly the same process.

really you an outsider really think that ist more democratic! well let me tell u sumthing, a persn who has experienced war you do not kno wat hell is like if ya hant been there. i feel sick wen peole like you who hav no idea, and make comments bout countries like iraq using the BIAS national british news to make judgment believing it more democratic. PEOPLE LIKE U NEED TO WAKE , NEED TO LOOK THIS IDEOLOGY CREATED BY PEOPLE SUCH AS THE US GOVERNMENT AND SEE THE REAL PROBLEMS!!!!!!!:heated: :heated: :heated:

[Islamicboy]

I had no choice when i was young my parents came to canada inshallaah I plan on moving away in couple of years.... A person living in the western can go astray easily.

[HeiGou]

I had no choice when i was young my parents came to canada inshallaah I plan on moving away in couple of years.... A person living in the western can go astray easily.

May I, in all seriousness, ask why you are waiting? Don't you trust that God will provide wherever you go for your Faith?

[Islamicboy]

I do trust in Allaah S.W.T inshallaah as soons as in couple of years i save enough money i can go. Also I did ask my parents couple of times to help me but they dont agree with me leaving. I can understand there concerns and why they wouldn't want me to leave.

[Trumble]

really you an outsider really think that ist more democratic! well let me tell u sumthing, a persn who has experienced war you do not kno wat hell is like if ya hant been there. i feel sick wen peole like you who hav no idea, and make comments bout countries like iraq using the BIAS national british news to make judgment believing it more democratic.

Could you please explain why you believe the elections were not democratic, and what form of government you believe would be more democratic?

[Dawud_uk]

Could you please explain why you believe the elections were not democratic, and what form of government you believe would be more democratic?

assalaamu alaykum,

personally i care nothing for your democracy, its methods or principles.

i am sorry, i dont respect democracy, so i will never respect democracy in iraq, afghanistan or any other islamic land. full stop and make du'a (suplication) to Allah for the muslims there to throw off democracy and establish genuine islamic states.

in islam ultimate authority lays with the creator of the heaven and the earth - Allah! not with the people as in democracy,
if the government wish to do something that is against shariah they cannot and it is disbelief to do so no matter how many people wish them to do it.

simularly secular 'muslim' governments commit acts of kufr (disbelief) by ruling by other than what Allah has revealed.

in a true islamic state, the most pious learned person is chosen as the ruler, not the person who has the most cash for a political campaign or who is the best and most slick speaker.

keep your democracy in the west, keep your troops in the west, keep your bribed kaffir murteed (apostate) puppet rulers in the west,we dont want them and then there will be no more attacks upon you either in the east or the west.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud

[dishdash]

Daw'ud - on that point about leaders, I would say the most learned scholar is rarely the best leader. Different qualities are needed. A great leader will rely on the advice of the ulema but the ulema have never proved to be the best leaders.

We can pick a few that do not conform to this, but as a rule of thumb, scholarly types don't tend to make great leaders (and Islam accomodates this) and vice versa.

Which country in their current political and religious climate, would you suggest would make the best destination for us to go to?

[HeiGou]

personally i care nothing for your democracy, its methods or principles.

You're a revert right?

i am sorry, i dont respect democracy, so i will never respect democracy in iraq, afghanistan or any other islamic land. full stop and make du'a (suplication) to Allah for the muslims there to throw off democracy and establish genuine islamic states.

Well please don't let me stop you. Work for a non-democratic Islamic state wherever you want. But I think it is important not to do so violently. What do you think?

in islam ultimate authority lays with the creator of the heaven and the earth - Allah! not with the people as in democracy,
if the government wish to do something that is against shariah they cannot and it is disbelief to do so no matter how many people wish them to do it.

Well they can do it, but perhaps they should not. You see the difference? Without democracy how are you going to stop the government doing what it should not? I have a distrust of the Cult of Personality approach you seem to be taking - it is too typical of some Catholics I know who wanted that one perfect man and so as a result supported Franco or Mussolini or even a short Austrian guy. But let's go with your dictator approach - you have that one pious man in power and he wants to do something Un-Islamic. How do you stop him without a vote? Remember that it took a handful of Caliphs before the Caliphate became a Kingdom and that was despite knowing Muahmmed personally and many of those Caliphs being of excellent moral character.

in a true islamic state, the most pious learned person is chosen as the ruler, not the person who has the most cash for a political campaign or who is the best and most slick speaker.

Who is going to choose the most pious learned person?

keep your democracy in the west, keep your troops in the west, keep your bribed kaffir murteed (apostate) puppet rulers in the west,we dont want them and then there will be no more attacks upon you either in the east or the west.

Funny, when the Muslims invaded Spain I don't recall any Spanish soldiers in the Muslim world or any bribed kaffir murteed (apostate) puppet rulers. And yet they still were invaded. What makes you think that the attacks will stop simply because the West withdraws from the Middle East?

[Caliphate]

This is a good question. The hypocrits still keep asking why we hate the west while they burn our houses, kill our fathers and sons, humiliate and rape our mothers and daughters, exploite and plounder the resources from our lands, and now not only do they sto here they even occupy our heart: Palestine land of the symbol of Al Israa Wal Mi3raaj.

Yet they keep asking this silly question which they should answer themselves wallahi. They play with our intellect and our intelligence when they ask this, because they should know their crimes and realize the fact that muslims are the victims and had always been attacked by the ignorant west, not to mention the daily attacks and killings of muslim nations in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan I could go on as the LIST is very long. I myself grew up in the west, and here is where I have lived almost all my life, but just because of that it doesnt mean that I love the west. How can I love those who commit all those cirmes against us? They are the reason why our parents left their countries to seek a better life, because the west destroyed the Islamic state which used to protect the interests of the muslims and replaced it with their evil systems over the muslim lands and set up puppet regimes to oppress the muslims, divide them , corrupt them and to exploide their resources. Indeed they are those who made our parents leave their countries because they were oppressed and the puppet regimes which serves the interest of the ignorant west made their lives a misery and a hell so they start seeking a better life for themselves and for their children. So here we are, the second generation of those parent-generation and they expect us to love their corrupt and ignorant values and systems?

The answer is clear, and it will be no as the west is the mother of all crimes and all misery we witness in all muslim lands in the hands of the agents they hire to torture, kill, humiliate,oppress and abuse muslims in all the muslim world.

One thing should be understood right: I am not saying or having any intention to kill or attack any person in the west, in fact Islam is an intellectual ideology and the system which would organize the affairs of all human beings, so here I wantt o make clear that we are not wanting to kill or attack the western people. But to give them an alternative to their failed and corrupt systems and values, which is Islam to save them from the man-made systems which only oppress and bring humanity to misery. Indeed Islam forbids the killing and attacking of western people in the west, but as those who occupy as in the case in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan it is a Duty from Islam on every muslim in the world. Islam is the alternative and the only solution for the west and for the muslim world and the rest of the world as humanity is yearning after justice, peace, securiy and the hnour of being a human, and wallahi only Islam can prove humanity all this without limuiting it to muslims only but to all humans regardless their religion, race or culture.

Only Islam is the Solution.

[primitivefuture]

Yes, Islam is the solution.

[HeiGou]

This is a good question. The hypocrits still keep asking why we hate the west while they burn our houses, kill our fathers and sons, humiliate and rape our mothers and daughters, exploite and plounder the resources from our lands, and now not only do they sto here they even occupy our heart: Palestine land of the symbol of Al Israa Wal Mi3raaj.

Funny, I do not remember anyone burning houses, killing fathers and sons, raping mothers and daughters in Copenhagen. Wow. Denmark must be a much rougher and tougher place than I thought.

They play with our intellect and our intelligence when they ask this, because they should know their crimes and realize the fact that muslims are the victims and had always been attacked by the ignorant west,

Really? In 800 where was the West attacking Islam? In 1000? In 1400? In 1700?

I myself grew up in the west, and here is where I have lived almost all my life, but just because of that it doesnt mean that I love the west. How can I love those who commit all those cirmes against us?

Who are the Danes killing in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan?

Indeed Islam forbids the killing and attacking of western people in the west, but as those who occupy as in the case in Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan it is a Duty from Islam on every muslim in the world.

But if it is the West that is occupying Palestine, Iraq and Afghanistan, why isn't it a duty, in your opinion, for every Muslim to attack the West?

[HeiGou]

Yes, Islam is the solution.

Why do you believe that? Where has it been tried since Ali died and worked? Where has it been partially tried and made things partially better since Ali died? I can accept that as a statement of belief, but is it anything more?

[Caliphate]

assalaamu alaykum,

personally i care nothing for your democracy, its methods or principles.

i am sorry, i dont respect democracy, so i will never respect democracy in iraq, afghanistan or any other islamic land. full stop and make du'a (suplication) to Allah for the muslims there to throw off democracy and establish genuine islamic states.

in islam ultimate authority lays with the creator of the heaven and the earth - Allah! not with the people as in democracy,
if the government wish to do something that is against shariah they cannot and it is disbelief to do so no matter how many people wish them to do it.

simularly secular 'muslim' governments commit acts of kufr (disbelief) by ruling by other than what Allah has revealed.

in a true islamic state, the most pious learned person is chosen as the ruler, not the person who has the most cash for a political campaign or who is the best and most slick speaker.

keep your democracy in the west, keep your troops in the west, keep your bribed kaffir murteed (apostate) puppet rulers in the west,we dont want them and then there will be no more attacks upon you either in the east or the west.

assalaamu alaykum,
Daw'ud

Takbiiir- Allahu Akbar

Takbiiir- Allahu akbar

Takbiir-Allahu akbar

Assalamu alikom wr Allah wb ya akhi al kariim.

Mashallah your words of truth touchs the heart of al Muminoon wallahi, I ask Allah swt to make the rest of muslim Ummah realize the fact that democracy is Kufr and it is corrupt. The mask of ignorant democracy and all other wester values are falling off as we see all their acts against innocent people being kept as detainees in Guantanamo without any crime or a prove for this. Wallahi only Al Khilafah is the solution for muslims, because Allah swt says:

"He it is Who has sent His Messenger (Muhammad) with guidance and the religion of truth to make it victorious over all (other) ways of life even though the Mushrikun (polytheists) hate (it). "

[ As Saff: 8 - 9]

Only Khilafah is the Solution

[Rou]

Why do you believe that? Where has it been tried since Ali died and worked? Where has it been partially tried and made things partially better since Ali died? I can accept that as a statement of belief, but is it anything more?

lol your questioning why or how islam has made things better or it hasnt!??

on what basis again!? islam as a way of life has made it better for many muslims who llive around the world if your talking about goverments and ways of life that is don to the human population not the religon...

islam as a religon if followed correctly lol even to the basics improves your life

what are you matching up islam to again?

compared to what??

western life?

IF!! islam was allowed to prosper without intervention yes it would grow if money was not allowed to make the world go round indeed it would make things better but unfortunatly the balance in this world is tipped by unfair economics and to survive one must play a games with this economics...

saudi arabia if you think is in any way a view of what a caliphate under true islamic law would be like then you are gravely mistaken...

the rules are bartered between the well off and the poor just as in the USA and the UK...

oil that is bought by the west and the power that is given to those who do not deserve it nake sure that the balance in islam can not be laid down...

you say islam has not improved any thing or brought any good since the time of ali!?? and how much research did you do to get to that as it is an untrue statment!

the caliphate improved itself and grew in power and knowledge well after ali.

islam has improved so many peoples lives mine included and you right it of as a goverment that controls a country!? you are misguided in thinking that there is a diffrence in a goverment and a way of life the islamic way of life demands peace and demands fairness where as the fairness shown in the UK and USA are abhorent!

the people are used there ways of life controlled to the last second...

if caliphate is reborn and it will be and when islam is followed clearly then question it... not in times where the economic market control who starves and who suffers...

including the saudi leaders who have sold themselves and become used to living there rich ways while there brothers suffer...

do not mistake that for islam...

for it is nothing but greed that has spread like a disease...

and do not pass your judgment on that of which you do not know...

your right in our life time we have not seen the caliphate nor its success but you aint dead yet...

[mas]

who said we hate living their. actually america need us , peace

[primitivefuture]

Yeah, most Americans have a below average IQ. It is people like us from Asia who really pregress America.

[Templar Knight]

lol your questioning why or how islam has made things better or it hasnt!??

on what basis again!? islam as a way of life has made it better for many muslims who llive around the world if your talking about goverments and ways of life that is don to the human population not the religon...

islam as a religon if followed correctly lol even to the basics improves your life

what are you matching up islam to again?

compared to what??

western life?

IF!! islam was allowed to prosper without intervention yes it would grow if money was not allowed to make the world go round indeed it would make things better but unfortunatly the balance in this world is tipped by unfair economics and to survive one must play a games with this economics...

saudi arabia if you think is in any way a view of what a caliphate under true islamic law would be like then you are gravely mistaken...

the rules are bartered between the well off and the poor just as in the USA and the UK...

oil that is bought by the west and the power that is given to those who do not deserve it nake sure that the balance in islam can not be laid down...

you say islam has not improved any thing or brought any good since the time of ali!?? and how much research did you do to get to that as it is an untrue statment!

the caliphate improved itself and grew in power and knowledge well after ali.

islam has improved so many peoples lives mine included and you right it of as a goverment that controls a country!? you are misguided in thinking that there is a diffrence in a goverment and a way of life the islamic way of life demands peace and demands fairness where as the fairness shown in the UK and USA are abhorent!

the people are used there ways of life controlled to the last second...

if caliphate is reborn and it will be and when islam is followed clearly then question it... not in times where the economic market control who starves and who suffers...

including the saudi leaders who have sold themselves and become used to living there rich ways while there brothers suffer...

do not mistake that for islam...

for it is nothing but greed that has spread like a disease...

and do not pass your judgment on that of which you do not know...

your right in our life time we have not seen the caliphate nor its success but you aint dead yet...

But what if you aren't muslim. The rules you must adhere to under there rule would be outrageous even to other muslims. If we constituted something along the lines of Dhimmi here in the West the howl from Muslims would be deafening.

[primitivefuture]

I as a Muslim, agree, that dhimmi status is wrong.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

I've got a better question why do the kufar live in this dunya when they disobey allah, I say if your gonna disobey him don't live on his land.

[woodworm]

Those stupid extremists like bin laden hate the west because we are more efficient than the east. we have more money, and your jellous. your living the lifestyle we had 500 years ago for crying out flaming loud!
and trying to run a country with religion is a baaad idea.

[x Maz x]

I think the main Muslims have with living in the west is that they get sterotyped [women wearing niqaab] as being an undercover terrorists...and with the new terrorist laws coming in...seem bit wohh...bit extreme for my liking...glorify terrorism and out you go 10 years 4 u matey...so Id watch wah you say incase there sum undercover MI5 prying or posting, never know what the British could sink to, and all the laws and leglisations made by the British certainly contradict that of what the Shaariah consists of [eg laws on rape/treating of homosexuals/allowing intresting]...from the most major of things to the minor things...
When living in Saudi, despite how corrupt the people running it are [if they are] you get to abide by what Islam teaches you...moreover what Allah has sent down as to be the law...as stated in Quran and Sunnah...
Well thats my opion, dunno if it makes sense but ah well..
Peace x

[x Maz x]

Pshh...all that money diverted to the miliatary to make weopons etc to kill innocents cilivians in countries maybe America should channel their genorosity to feedin the third world...Allah has distrbuted welath and it is up to us to use it in a good way shame America doesnt Allah guide them Peace x

[chacha_jalebi]

wots the point of giving money & food & then bombing the crap out of them? america just acts gud, everyone knows the truth about them & look how sad they are, they have to bomb from the air, if they are real men why dont they come on the land and fight!!

by the way lol on topic me dont hate the west!! lol

[Z]

Real men use their brains/planes, not their fists.

[Muezzin]

You think? I think it is an odd shape myself. But now we are really off topic and Muezzin will come and hand out some Big Time A** Whoopin' if we are not careful.

You've got Nostradumus' number.

Off-topic deletion spree... ACTIVATE.

Please stay on topic everyone, ta.

[Bittersteel]

Those stupid extremists like bin laden hate the west because we are more efficient than the east. we have more money, and your jellous. your living the lifestyle we had 500 years ago for crying out flaming loud!
and trying to run a country with religion is a baaad idea.

who have you been listening to?

[x Maz x]

Yo Muezzin why in blue blazin' hell you delete ma post for? Pshhhh...was an answer to Heigous comments :'( Onli fair ya delte the whole thread...not that you aint thought of it already...Boo it me departing from this thread sinse all my posts just end up gettin delted from unthoughtful mods :'(
Peace x

I deleted those posts because they were replying to and quoting from ones which were off-topic.

-Muezzin

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

I think this thread should be closed. We've gone over everything at least 5 times.
:w:

[x Maz x]

Allow me, no really I insist...serves the mod to delte my 'ON THREAD' post :)
This thread is being closed :) Hopefully Peace out x

:threadclo

[czgibson]

Greetings,

Don't close the thread - really interested to see how i-t justifies this charming bit of sophistry:

I've got a better question why do the kufar live in this dunya when they disobey allah, I say if your gonna disobey him don't live on his land.

Are you saying that kaffirs don't have the right to live on this planet at all?

Peace

[primitivefuture]

Are you saying that kaffirs don't have the right to live on this planet at all?

He meant that kaffirs, as humans and creations of God, don't deserve to enjoy this planet when they fail to obey their Creator.

[Muezzin]

All off-topic posts deleted, regardless of who posted them.

Primitivefuture, there is an invisible mode members may use to appear offline when they are really online. It is available in the User CP area.

[Rou]

But what if you aren't muslim. The rules you must adhere to under there rule would be outrageous even to other muslims. If we constituted something along the lines of Dhimmi here in the West the howl from Muslims would be deafening.

im talking about many have lived under muslims rule whop werent muslims and they were not oppressed or made to be muslims...

they were allowed to follow there religon and lived peacefully alongside muslims...

to be muslim is a choice it can not be forced...

there is a massive misconception of islam and thats why it is feared and that which is feared is attacked and in the end wether you like it or not that which is attacked will strike back...

there is no point in complaining about it afterwards...

islam is peace but it will strike back when attacked simple...

as for the living together like i said in islam the law is to get on with your neighbours whatever race...to live in peace...

with a true islamic caliphate it would bring more peace not war...

[scentsofjannah]

Those stupid extremists like bin laden hate the west because we are more efficient than the east. we have more money, and your jellous. your living the lifestyle we had 500 years ago for crying out flaming loud!
and trying to run a country with religion is a baaad idea.

cool down white dude lol

[scentsofjannah]

according to many americans ...majority of muslims live in tents..are camel jockeys and don't know what tv is.:rollseyes

[primitivefuture]

And that is why they have below average IQs....

[czgibson]

Greetings,

He meant that kaffirs, as humans and creations of God, don't deserve to enjoy this planet when they fail to obey their Creator.

I'm glad you feel confident enough to respond for someone else, and you may be right in your interpretation, but I think I'll wait for the originator of the comment to explain his own words.

Peace

[Rou]

Those stupid extremists like bin laden hate the west because we are more efficient than the east. we have more money, and your jellous. your living the lifestyle we had 500 years ago for crying out flaming loud!
and trying to run a country with religion is a baaad idea.

Woodworm - :blind: me - :giggling:

i have nothing more to say.....

[primitivefuture]

The pagan got banned.

[HeiGou]

im talking about many have lived under muslims rule whop werent muslims and they were not oppressed or made to be muslims...

Sounds like how the West treats Muslims only less so.

they were allowed to follow there religon and lived peacefully alongside muslims...

Indeed. Mind you they also had to pay special taxes. As a Muslim in the West, do you?

to be muslim is a choice it can not be forced...

Well that is not entirely true depending on what you mean by "Muslim". The Dhimmi status was only ever offered to Jews, Christians, Sabians, Zoroastrians and eventually Hindus in practice but not in theory wasn't it? Pagans were not given a choice, they had to convert.

there is a massive misconception of islam and thats why it is feared and that which is feared is attacked and in the end wether you like it or not that which is attacked will strike back...

I would argue that the more experience people have of Islam as it is actually practiced, or at least has been in the past, the more they fear Islam. Greece is not known for its fondness for Turkey, nor India for Pakistan, nor Israel for any Arab nation. Japan on the other hand has no idea what being ruled by Muslims means and so there is ignorance but no fear. Would you say that is a fair comment or perhaps you have some counter-examples of non-Muslim countries which really get on well with their Muslim neighbors - Serbia perhaps?

there is no point in complaining about it afterwards...

nd yet everyone is here complaining about America striking back when attacked.

islam is peace but it will strike back when attacked simple...

And so has America. Is that their right to do so?

[j4763]

And that is why they have below average IQs....

Compared to who? And what evidence do you have of this?

(or is it just a dig at the yanks)

[x Maz x]

Why i hate the West? I dont not, I hate the American government...after listening to this >> as posted by a fellow brother in Islam on another fraction of the forums it made me cry :'( SubhanAllah...Listen to it for yourself ....

http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...050&pr=goog-sl

[minime7]

well you can't change things unless your part of the change!

[x Maz x]

Brothers and Sisters, I really dont see any point in having this conversation as it will get delted by Muezzin or any other mods because your going off toppic...this topic of Kafir etc is being discussed on another thread so InshAllah post there...

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...del-kafir.html

Fi imanillah x

[HeiGou]

once again hei gou you have answered in ignorance of what you truly speak of?

Well I do try my best.

america as peacful was it?

so america didnt do anything and muslims just decided they would start to attack this country is that what you beleive? i suggest you do a little more research before talking about something...

I did not say America was peaceful. Why do you feel the need to invent claims I have not made? But as it happens, yes, America was peacefully minding its own business when Osama Bin Laden and his friends fly some planes into some buildings. America had done nothing to OBL, nor to his friends. And I notice that people who do have grounds for complaint - the Palestinians for instance - did not approve of this attack at all. So what is it, do you think, that America did to OBL that made them deserve this attack?

i pay tax to the country indeed i do...and you say those who were not muslim were made to pay tax!? indeed you are correct they paid tax just as i do in this country whats your point???

I assume you pay the same taxes as everyone else. Non-Muslims paid a special discriminatory tax. Do you pay any of those?

the tax that non muslims paid in a muslim state was nothing compared to the fact that they were defended within that state by muslim soilders

Defend from whom exactly? Do you mean their Christian brothers just over the border? Do you mean the Bedouin who were prone to plunder? Do you mean perhaps the Turkic nomads from Central Asia? I mean on the whole you have to say that the Muslims did not do a good job of protecting the kafirs from people they wanted to be protected from but they did do a good job of preventing the kafirs being protected by the people they wanted to be protected by.

adn the fact that muslims had to pay the zakat that was considrebly higher than the tax of the non muslims.

There is no evidence of that and I would like to see you try to prove it. Non-Muslims also paid the Kharaj which was 50 percent of their crop in the case of the Jews of Khaybar. Muslims only paid the ushr, which was the same as the Roman agricultural tax, at 10 percent. The pressure of tax was enough to force dhimmis off the land en masse and many of them convert. Again you can see who paid taxes because the Ummayyads often refused to accept that people had converted and sent Muslims back to farm the land and pay taxes as if they were dhimmis. If the taxes were the same, they would not have cared.

as i said i suggest you do your research before talking nd stop attacking islam on the basis o india and pakistan and dont tell me indians dont like pakistan on the basis of it being a muslim state ok mate cos its on the basis of kashmir not being muslim as there are thousands of muslims in india.

I am happy to be corrected if you have evidence of some massive ground swell of love for Muslims in India. I can trivially point to dozens of Indian authors who express very different views and the existence of the BJP.

and no one was MADE to convert and if people make another forcully convert then that is not islam...for to force someone to in to any religon is against the religon itself...

Go and read the Chachnama. But if you can't be bothered, can we agree that the day before the Muslims captured Mecca and destroyed all the idols there were no Muslims in Mecca. And the day after they captured Mecca and destroyed all the idols there were no non-Muslims in Mecca?

do not make enemies of those who do not wish to be your enemy...for it makes no sense...

Indeed. This is what I tell Muslims. I do not think it is non-Muslims making enemies of Muslims. I think the non-Muslims of Europe especially have offered the hand of friendship to the Muslims of world. And in return they have dead people on the Paris underground, dead people on buses in London, dead people on trains in Spain.

as i said no one is attacking you so it seems irrelvent for you to attack them...

seek justice not enemies...

Indeed. I like that last bit and it would be so much more effective coming from anyone else. But you are attacking me. This post is mainly a rant against me personally. There are people out there trying to kill me. I am not inventing enemies I do not have. I think we all need to work together but I am happy to accept that with some people that is not possible.

[Muezzin]

I've moved all posts discussing the use of the word 'kafir' to the following thread: http://www.islamicboard.com/refutati...l-kafir-4.html

Please discuss the matter further there.

[Rou]

Well I do try my best.



I did not say America was peaceful. Why do you feel the need to invent claims I have not made? But as it happens, yes, America was peacefully minding its own business when Osama Bin Laden and his friends fly some planes into some buildings. America had done nothing to OBL, nor to his friends. And I notice that people who do have grounds for complaint - the Palestinians for instance - did not approve of this attack at all. So what is it, do you think, that America did to OBL that made them deserve this attack?



I assume you pay the same taxes as everyone else. Non-Muslims paid a special discriminatory tax. Do you pay any of those?



Defend from whom exactly? Do you mean their Christian brothers just over the border? Do you mean the Bedouin who were prone to plunder? Do you mean perhaps the Turkic nomads from Central Asia? I mean on the whole you have to say that the Muslims did not do a good job of protecting the kafirs from people they wanted to be protected from but they did do a good job of preventing the kafirs being protected by the people they wanted to be protected by.



There is no evidence of that and I would like to see you try to prove it. Non-Muslims also paid the Kharaj which was 50 percent of their crop in the case of the Jews of Khaybar. Muslims only paid the ushr, which was the same as the Roman agricultural tax, at 10 percent. The pressure of tax was enough to force dhimmis off the land en masse and many of them convert. Again you can see who paid taxes because the Ummayyads often refused to accept that people had converted and sent Muslims back to farm the land and pay taxes as if they were dhimmis. If the taxes were the same, they would not have cared.



I am happy to be corrected if you have evidence of some massive ground swell of love for Muslims in India. I can trivially point to dozens of Indian authors who express very different views and the existence of the BJP.



Go and read the Chachnama. But if you can't be bothered, can we agree that the day before the Muslims captured Mecca and destroyed all the idols there were no Muslims in Mecca. And the day after they captured Mecca and destroyed all the idols there were no non-Muslims in Mecca?



Indeed. This is what I tell Muslims. I do not think it is non-Muslims making enemies of Muslims. I think the non-Muslims of Europe especially have offered the hand of friendship to the Muslims of world. And in return they have dead people on the Paris underground, dead people on buses in London, dead people on trains in Spain.



Indeed. I like that last bit and it would be so much more effective coming from anyone else. But you are attacking me. This post is mainly a rant against me personally. There are people out there trying to kill me. I am not inventing enemies I do not have. I think we all need to work together but I am happy to accept that with some people that is not possible.

Hei gou is it worth talking to you!?? your not even reading carefully!? i said they were made to pay a tax that supported the state you say it discriminated them!? are you feeling ok!? they were paying a less tax than the muslims them selves so that they could be protected within that muslim state!?

so whos the lesser person in the situation the muslims who are protecting everyone and payjing more taxes or the muslims who put there lives at risk to protect the whole state and still pay higher taxes1??

i suggest you take your hate and live with it instead of trying to pin muslims with all diffrent acusations that end up false ayhow!?

i mean its pathatic what kind of life is that!?

do you even know what your talking about your posts are a joke!?

your saying christians wanted protection from others but were made to stay in islamic states!?? facts mate when the crusaders came the jews and the christians of the middle east came to the muslims for protection as the crusaders were barbaric and raped and killed any one they came past!

the christians and jews were protected by muslims they were not prisoners they could have left at any point!

Go and read the Chachnama. But if you can't be bothered, can we agree that the day before the Muslims captured Mecca and destroyed all the idols there were no Muslims in Mecca. And the day after they captured Mecca and destroyed all the idols there were no non-Muslims in Mecca?.

here we go again with ignorance to the truth!?

what you think i have never come past these lies beore!?? get your facts straight ok!

FOR ONE! mecca was a temple to the one god allah that was built by abraham so the idols that were in it were there against the will of the man who built the temple to the one god...

so what was islams was taken back and SECOND!

the idols were not smashed in the barbaric way that you put it , prophet mohammed (peace be upon him) asked the beleivers in the idols that if you beleive these idols as gods that you have made from your own hands and fear them so they should be able to protect themselves... the beleivers said that that is what they beleived, then the prophet (peace be upon him) asked if he would go to smash them would they protect themselves , he was told yes at which point he said to the beleivers that i can smash these idols and they will not strike back in any way..the beleivers found this to be untrue ,and they were asked before they idols were smashed to prove to them that there would be no out come!

let me guess you have read nothing of what i wrote and will continue on your pathetic course!? go right ahead its your life and your hate that will waste it...

DO RESEARCH!!!!

stop coming out with whats in your head cos whats in your head is there beacuse you hate islam and muslims beacuse your nothing but a puppet that has been fed this hate since you were born!!

as i stated what basis are you attacking islam on!?? do you see anyone attacking you!??!

whos talking of india? whos attacking hindus?? whos questioning atheists here!??

not every muslim mate and so far on this thread and the many that ive seen no one has !

no doubt many have but you seem to make a following out of trying to make muslims look bad!?

all i can say is congratulations you seem to be following SUCH a noble cause hey!?

you truly are the saviour and not the destroyer right!?

you are the defender not the attacker right!?

carry on with your false hate and see where in the end it gets you....

[a.abraar]

why all this disagreement about residing in these lands,the youth need guidance and help

[Ghazi]

why all this disagreement about residing in these lands,the youth need guidance and help

:sl:

As a youth, I know what the situation is, Haram is in our faces on a daily basis, It's very risky to live in a non-muslim country when your iman isn't strong.

[Skillganon]

You telling me, so many bro and sis go astray. All we can do is become better muslim and lead the way for the next generation, and that is from better education on our deen.

[searchingsoul]

I was debating PrimitiveFuture in another thread and felt that it would be best to start a new thread instead of going off topic. I'm not saying that I agree with further isolation, but it is worth debating.

[S]Quote:
Originally Posted by primitivefuture
Yes, I know. My point is that Muslims do not want to part of a society that is so sinful its disgusting. [/S]


I've thought about this. I sympathize with those who feel their lives are negatively affected by the majority of people in western societies. In the USA we have the Amish population which have the same dislike for western society. They isolate themselves within their own communities. They home school their kids, or have their own schools, they live peacefully with little interaction among the rest of society. Could this be a possible solution for Muslims in Western society?

[Looking4Peace]

It possibly could, but remember not all muslims in the west think that western society is disgusting i know all too many muslims who drink, have lots of premarital sex, cheat, basically act disgusting, etc etc. It is a fact that western societies have no morals, i mean most claim they are christian, catholic etc yet do not even go by their own books of faith because those activites i just stated above go against the bible as well. Maybe im babbling but this is just my take on things.

[primitivefuture]

Globalisation makes it impossible for Muslims to to isolate from the West.

And considering the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US, I find your idea quite unrealistic.

[searchingsoul]

It possibly could, but remember not all muslims in the west think that western society is disgusting i know all too many muslims who drink, have lots of premarital sex, cheat, basically act disgusting, etc etc. It is a fact that western societies have no morals, i mean most claim they are christian, catholic etc yet do not even go by their own books of faith because those activites i just stated above go against the bible as well. Maybe im babbling but this is just my take on things.

You speak some truth. My suggestion of further isolation is for those Muslims who do adhere to Islam and hate western society, yet wish to live in those societies.

[Looking4Peace]

Globalisation makes it impossible for Muslims to to isolate from the West.

And considering the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US, I find your idea quite unrealistic.

this is somewhat true, i mean my dad saw that in baghdad as crazy and war torn as it is, started to have more and more western influence everyday, fast food and even bars yes bars. Globalisation or shall i say colonialism ruins just about everything.

[searchingsoul]

Globalisation makes it impossible for Muslims to to isolate from the West.

And considering the fact that Islam is the fastest growing religion in the US, I find your idea quite unrealistic.

I'm referring to Muslims who live in Western societies but hate the western society in which they live. It is not impossible for a group of people to live in isolation in order to keep their religious beliefs unchanged, the Amish are a good example.

As far as Islam being the fastest growing religion in the US, do you have any unbiased stats for this claim? I hear this claim a lot but can't locate any reliable sources. Thanks.

[searchingsoul]

this is somewhat true, i mean my dad saw that in baghdad as crazy and war torn as it is, started to have more and more western influence everyday, fast food and even bars yes bars. Globalisation or shall i say colonialism ruins just about everything.

The question at hand is about isolation. The Amish manage to keep themselves isolated and virtually unchanged by isolation. The concept is plausible.

[Looking4Peace]

The amish are a very small group, there was a group of them that lived seperate that was not that far from a college i attended upstate new york.

there are way more muslims in the united states and also the amish have been here for i dont even know how long, but early in american civilization. How and where do you suppose muslims could claim land in the united states or antother western society as their own and live seperate? It is somewhat unrealistic now that i think about it.

I actually have a book that has to do with minority groups in america from a sociology class i took, let me look up when the amish came and how many are actually here. Give me a minute

[primitivefuture]

As far as Islam being the fastest growing religion in the US, do you have any unbiased stats for this claim? I hear this claim a lot but can't locate any reliable sources. Thanks.

US News: http://www.jannah.org/articles/usnews.html
US Government site: http://usinfo.state.gov/products/pub...e/homepage.htm
Columbia University Press: http://www.columbia.edu/cu/cup/catal...0231109660.HTM
Infoplease: http://www.infoplease.com/spot/muslims1.html
United Religions Initiative: http://www.uri.org/Islam_in_North_America.html
MEMRI: http://www.memri.org/bin/media.cgi?ID=170706
PBS Education: http://www.pbs.org/empires/islam/faithtoday.html

I can provide hundreds of more links;--- to be honest.

[searchingsoul]

The amish are a very small group, there was a group of them that lived seperate that was not that far from a college i attended upstate new york.

there are way more muslims in the united states and also the amish have been here for i dont even know how long, but early in american civilization. How and where do you suppose muslims could claim land in the united states or antother western society as their own and live seperate? It is somewhat unrealistic now that i think about it.

I actually have a book that has to do with minority groups in america from a sociology class i took, let me look up when the amish came and how many are actually here. Give me a minute

Why do you think that the population of the faith would matter?

I'm not suggesting that all the Muslims be rounded up and sent to their own lot of land. This isn't the case with the Amish. They simply purchase land (like any other person would), there relatives often purchase nearby land, and they create their own little communities within already designated counties and states. They live in their little communities (wherever that may be) with people who hold their own beliefs. They do isolate themselves from the non-Amish by creating taking education, healthcare, and employment into their own hands. They interact very little with non-Amish people. They co-exist peacefully with other members of Western society, even though their beliefs differ greatly.

[Looking4Peace]

ok i found it easier to look it up online then to fumble through a big old book:giggling:

this is from Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Some Amish began to migrate to the United States in the 18th century. Many would eventually settle in Lancaster County, Pennsylvania; the first immigrants actually went to Berks County, but later moved, motivated partly by security issues, tied to the French and Indian War, and land issues. Other groups settled in or spread to Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Kentucky, Michigan, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New York, Ohio, Maryland, Tennesee, Wisconsin, Maine, and Canada.

Most Amish communities that were established in North America did not ultimately retain their Amish identity. In fact, many more of the early communities eventually lost their Amish identity and gradually took on a Mennonite identity. The original major split that would result in the loss of identity occurred in the 1860s. During that decade Dienerversammlungen (ministerial conferences) were held in Wayne County, Ohio, concerning how the Amish should deal with the pressures of modern society. The meetings themselves were a progressive idea; that bishops should get together to discuss uniformity was an unprecedented notion in the Amish church. By the first several meetings, the conservative bishops agreed to boycott the Dienerversammlungen. Thus, the more progressive Amish within several decades became Amish-Mennonite, and were then later absorbed into the "Old" Mennonites (not to be confused with Old Order Mennonites). The much smaller faction became the Amish of today.

and i just opened my book:giggling: , it is estimated from what is known anyway that between the united states and canada there is 100,000 of them.

so they have been here for centuries and are a very small population living in certain areas to make a long story short

now do you see how this would be difficult for muslims in the west, also take into consideration that the majority of muslims here are converts, noone knows exactly how many live here. This is a difficult comparison.

[searchingsoul]

now do you see how this would be difficult for muslims in the west, also take into consideration that the majority of muslims here are converts, noone knows exactly how many live here. This is a difficult comparison.

No I do not see why this is a difficult comparison. I don't see why the numbers would matter.

I have a feeling that the number of Muslims who reside in the West who truly want to abandon Western society (yet live within it) is low.

[Looking4Peace]

I am simply saying that they cannot be compared to the amish, for many of reasons including yes the population differences which would make it difficult to "live seperate", also there are plenty who do live seperate in the sense that they go about their traditional muslim ways even thought they live here, i know of some. I mean come to nyc and you will see a halal shop in just about every neighborhood, mosques all over and the list can go on. So in general the ones who want to live true to their faith despite the majority of society here do and get by fine . I dont see exactly what you mean.

now im confused:rollseyes :confused:

[primitivefuture]

Why do you think that the population of the faith would matter?

Because, in American demcracy, political power comes with population size.

[searchingsoul]

Because, in American demcracy, political power comes with population size.

Do you think that the number of Western Muslims who actually hate Western society is numerous?

[Looking4Peace]

yes and no, because i know muslims from both sides of the tracks, muslims who do hate what goes on in the west and are very traditional and other who like it a bit too much and engage in unlawful acitivites.

[primitivefuture]

yes and no, because i know muslims from both sides of the tracks, muslims who do hate what goes on in the west and are very traditional and other who like it a bit too much and engage in unlawful acitivites.

I was very "un-Islamic" in my high school years....have matured quite a bit since then.

[searchingsoul]

yes and no, because i know muslims from both sides of the tracks, muslims who do hate what goes on in the west and are very traditional and other who like it a bit too much and engage in unlawful acitivites.

My point exactly. The number of Muslims who actually adhere to Islam in the USA (or other western countries) would probably be low. I'm not judging Muslims because this is also true of Christians. I've never been able to find good stats on the number of Western Muslims who actually abide by Islamic rule. I think we would be referring to a low number of people. I would also think that most of the negative activity which is used to adversly stereotype Muslims (in terms of unwillingness to accept the current Western society) comes from this same population.

[Looking4Peace]

I was very "un-Islamic" in my high school years....have matured quite a bit since then.

good to hear, cant say i was un-islamic back then because i wasnt muslim:okay: but however i was quite bad and have matured as well.

[Nicola]

Should Muslims choose islolation in the West?

I don't see why they should need to choose islolation, if your faith is strong enough you can live through anything.
Many Christians disagree with this modern western way of life as well.

Jesus tells us...there needs to be light in this world...if we all decided to run away and hide, people would remain always in darkness they would receive no light at all...this is why we are told we must live among the modern world.

[Looking4Peace]

good point

[Dawud_uk]

I was debating PrimitiveFuture in another thread and felt that it would be best to start a new thread instead of going off topic. I'm not saying that I agree with further isolation, but it is worth debating.

[S]Quote:
Originally Posted by primitivefuture
Yes, I know. My point is that Muslims do not want to part of a society that is so sinful its disgusting. [/S]


I've thought about this. I sympathize with those who feel their lives are negatively affected by the majority of people in western societies. In the USA we have the Amish population which have the same dislike for western society. They isolate themselves within their own communities. They home school their kids, or have their own schools, they live peacefully with little interaction among the rest of society. Could this be a possible solution for Muslims in Western society?

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

issolating ourselves totally would be about the least islamic thing to do, we need to help the west, not let it go to destruction arround us.

there is a story in islam i would wish to share with you,
Allah (swt) being angry with the sins of a town sends angels to destroy it,
but the angels come back to Allah and tell him of a house where a man who is constant in prayer and worship,
Allah asks the angels does he forbid that bad things that's going off arround him?
the angels answer no, so Allah tells them to start the destruction with that house.

you see in islam it is not enough we keep the good things to ourselves, we have a duty to pass on the message to others. i am english, i can see a lot worth salvaging in western culture but the rest of it must go and God willing we will help turn this country into an islamic country before too long.

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Daw'ud

[Dawud_uk]

I as a Muslim, agree, that dhimmi status is wrong.

brother be very careful, how can you say it is wrong when it was the actions of the four rightly guided kalifs?

[searchingsoul]

I don't see why they should need to choose islolation, if your faith is strong enough you can live through anything.
Many Christians disagree with this modern western way of life as well.

Jesus tells us...there needs to be light in this world...if we all decided to run away and hide, people would remain always in darkness they would receive no light at all...this is why we are told we must live among the modern world.

Many people both Muslims and Christians do choose to live peacefully within a society that they deem unfit. There are those people who refuse to accept the society that they live within and choose to live unpeacefully (rioting, bombing abortion clinics, etc...). What do you suggest to those who choose to live unpeacefully?

[searchingsoul]

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

issolating ourselves totally would be about the least islamic thing to do, we need to help the west, not let it go to destruction arround us.

there is a story in islam i would wish to share with you,
Allah (swt) being angry with the sins of a town sends angels to destroy it,
but the angels come back to Allah and tell him of a house where a man who is constant in prayer and worship,
Allah asks the angels does he forbid that bad things that's going off arround him?
the angels answer no, so Allah tells them to start the destruction with that house.

you see in islam it is not enough we keep the good things to ourselves, we have a duty to pass on the message to others. i am english, i can see a lot worth salvaging in western culture but the rest of it must go and God willing we will help turn this country into an islamic country before too long.

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,
Daw'ud

So you think that Muslims should convert all non-Muslims to Islam? Do you think that Muslims need to interact with societies so they can change the Western societies?

[Dawud_uk]

So you think that Muslims should convert all non-Muslims to Islam? Do you think that Muslims need to interact with societies so they can change the Western societies?

interact yes, intergrate no.

and it is up to Allah who becomes muslim or not, but it is our duty as muslims to deliver the message truthfully.

[Nicola]

Many people both Muslims and Christians do choose to live peacefully within a society that they deem unfit. There are those people who refuse to accept the society that they live within and choose to live unpeacefully (rioting, bombing abortion clinics, etc...). What do you suggest to those who choose to live unpeacefully?

I think they need to be islotated in prison until they can control themselves..if they can't they go straight back to jail....;D and do not pass go....

[HeiGou]

Hei gou is it worth talking to you!??

I often ask myself that question.

your not even reading carefully!? i said they were made to pay a tax that supported the state you say it discriminated them!? are you feeling ok!? they were paying a less tax than the muslims them selves so that they could be protected within that muslim state!?

Again where is the evidence they were paying less tax than the Muslims. You assert something that the historical record shows not to be true. The Umayyads sent converts back to the land to farm - and pay taxes as if they were non-Muslims - because they could not afford the loss of revenue. Muslims did not pay much tax at all in the early Islamic state. Dhimmis did.

Protected from whom? The Muslims did a bad job of protecting Dhimmis from foreign conquest (by Muslims for instance), the bedouin, the Turks, the Mongols etc etc.

your saying christians wanted protection from others but were made to stay in islamic states!?? facts mate when the crusaders came the jews and the christians of the middle east came to the muslims for protection as the crusaders were barbaric and raped and killed any one they came past!

That is not true either. The Christian population in Greater Syria fell because they were persecuted. They were persecuted because the Muslims felt, with reason, that they sided with the Crusaders. Even Muslim accounts by people like Ibn Jubayr say clearly that Muslim peasants were treated better by the Crusaders than by Muslim rulers. What you say is just not based on facts.

the christians and jews were protected by muslims they were not prisoners they could have left at any point!

How generous - you don't like foreign conquest of your homeland but it is OK, you can leave at any time. Rather like the Palestinians really.

FOR ONE! mecca was a temple to the one god allah that was built by abraham so the idols that were in it were there against the will of the man who built the temple to the one god...

Do you have any evidence of that not contained in the Quran or Hadith?

Besides it is irrelevant, we are discussing forced conversion, not the origin of the Kaba.

DO RESEARCH!!!!

So are we agreed that I am right and the day before the Muslim conquest of Mecca there were no Muslims in Mecca and the day after there were no non-Muslims? Fine.

[Dawud_uk]

I think they need to be islotated in prison until they can control themselves..if they can't they go straight back to jail....;D and do not pass go....

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

i am not defending violence outright, but are there no principles you hold so strongly that crossing them would result in your taking up violence?

for example, i have heard the far extreme of the pro-abortion movement argue that women should have the right to terminate their childs life even after birth, hyperthetically if this was legalised would you no resort to violence to protect the life of those children?

peace be upon those who follow righteous guidence,

Daw'ud

[searchingsoul]

[S]Quote:
Originally Posted by searchingsoul
So you think that Muslims should convert all non-Muslims to Islam? Do you think that Muslims need to interact with societies so they can change the Western societies? [/S]

interact yes, intergrate no.

Is further isolation a good idea if certain people find it impossible to have PEACEFUL interaction?

and it is up to Allah who becomes muslim or not, but it is our duty as muslims to deliver the message truthfully.

What if the members of society are aware of the message and simply don't like it? Is isolation a good idea then?

:) :) :)

[searchingsoul]

I think they need to be islotated in prison until they can control themselves..if they can't they go straight back to jail....;D and do not pass go....

Maybe if they were isolated they wouldn't get into trouble to begin with. They may be able to live life according to their beliefs without feeling ostracized or offended by others.

[julie sarri]

:sl: if we islolated ourself from the west or other groups that we found sinful how would we give dawah and guide non muslims to islam yes they do sinful actions but dawah is a part of islam which we will be asked about on the jugdement day if we didnt spread the word of islam afther all the prophet saw was sent to guide all mankind to the truth which is islam and we do not want to follow the ways of the non believers which are groups of people who stay within there religours groups ie the jewish people who live near me have a hole area for them self there own schools hospital docters shops they dont mix with the west the prophet said we shouldent follow people we should follow the quran and sunnah if muslims have problems with the non muslims there nothink to say you cant move to a better area place like the prophet moved to al madina becouse the non muslims were cousing them problems:w:

[searchingsoul]

:sl: if we islolated ourself from the west or other groups that we found sinful how would we give dawah and guide non muslims to islam yes they do sinful actions but dawah is a part of islam which we will be asked about on the jugdement day if we didnt spread the word of islam afther all the prophet saw was sent to guide all mankind to the truth which is islam and we do not want to follow the ways of the non believers which are groups of people who stay within there religours groups ie the jewish people who live near me have a hole area for them self there own schools hospital docters shops they dont mix with the west the prophet said we shouldent follow people we should follow the quran and sunnah if muslims have problems with the non muslims there nothink to say you cant move to a better area place like the prophet moved to al madina becouse the non muslims were cousing them problems:w:

So dawah is an important element of Islam? Thanks for the information. Since this is the case it wouldn't make much sense to choose further isolation. But I wonder if the people who are shouting that they hate the West actually try to spread the word of Islam? As an outsider looking in, the people who truly say they hate Western societies are doing little for spreading Islam, one might even say they are doing harm to Islam. It is these people I'm referring to. What do you think?

[...]

So dawah is an important element of Islam? Thanks for the information. Since this is the case it wouldn't make much sense to choose further isolation. But I wonder if the people who are shouting that they hate the West actually try to spread the word of Islam? As an outsider looking in, the people who truly say they hate Western societies are doing little for spreading Islam, one might even say they are doing harm to Islam. It is these people I'm referring to. What do you think?

Even if there is a single muslim living in a kafar country, they have to do da'wah. There was a village which was totally corrupt and so Allah ordered the angels to send His punishment. The angels returned and said that there is one lady who worships Him and Allah told the angels to turn the whole village upside down on her house.
This just shows that we can't seclude ourselves, while every1 around us is ignorant. And u can only live in a kafar country if u are doing da'wah.
:peace:

[searchingsoul]

Even if there is a single muslim living in a kafar country, they have to do da'wah. There was a village which was totally corrupt and so Allah ordered the angels to send His punishment. The angels returned and said that there is one lady who worships Him and Allah told the angels to turn the whole village upside down on her house.
This just shows that we can't seclude ourselves, while every1 around us is ignorant. And u can only live in a kafar country if u are doing da'wah.
:peace:

Thanks. I learned today that dawah is mandatory. But it makes me ask myself why I've never known a Muslim who tried to share Islam with me.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

I've been thinking of reasons why muslims live in non-muslim countries and put their iman at risk, I feel unless your giving dawa or have something that's holding you to these countries muslims should do Hijra since these countries hold kufur lifestyles. Now an example as a youth I see what my follow muslim youth get up to, Lets just say only thing islamic in some is their names, now why live in a place that can easily change someone from a muslim to a kufur and trust me it happens, why not do hijra why simply live here for a lifestyle and put your self at risk, whats your views guys?

[seeker_of_ilm]

:sl:

But these days muslim countries tend to be just as bad. Countries like Tunisia, Jordan, Turkey, muslims go clubbing and everything. If anything, countries like the UK afford more religious freedoms in some senses then a lot of muslim countries. Give me some examples of PROPER muslim countries....I'd really like to know :)

[Muhammad]

:sl:

Threads merged.

I felt that the same issue was being discussed in a few threads, so if I am mistaken then let me know Insha'Allaah.

:w:

[Ghazi]

:sl:

But these days muslim countries tend to be just as bad. Countries like Tunisia, Jordan, Turkey, muslims go clubbing and everything. If anything, countries like the UK afford more religious freedoms in some senses then a lot of muslim countries. Give me some examples of PROPER muslim countries....I'd really like to know :)

:sl:

Any It doesn't matter if a few are doing haraam, the majority are still muslim, my point being is in the UK step out your house and you got fitnah in your face, from bilboards to half-naked women,now seriously If I moved back home to somalia this wouldn't happen.

[Ghazi]

:sl:

Threads merged.

I felt that the same issue was being discussed in a few threads, so if I am mistaken then let me know Insha'Allaah.

:w:

:slL

Your right bro, I forgot about this thread.

[seeker_of_ilm]

:sl:

Any It doesn't matter if a few are doing haraam, the majority are still muslim, my point being is in the UK step out your house and you got fitnah in your face, from bilboards to half-naked women,now seriously If I moved back home to somalia this wouldn't happen.

:sl:

Perhaps not, but say you did go to a muslim country, where you'd be socialising with a bunch of muslims that go clubbing, drink and what-not....is it any better to be sinning with muslims? And in a lot of muslim countries...its not a "few" sinning, it is fast becoming a majority. There is fitnah everywhere the world, be the country majority muslim or not.

[x Maz x]

So dawah is an important element of Islam? Thanks for the information. Since this is the case it wouldn't make much sense to choose further isolation. But I wonder if the people who are shouting that they hate the West actually try to spread the word of Islam? As an outsider looking in, the people who truly say they hate Western societies are doing little for spreading Islam, one might even say they are doing harm to Islam. It is these people I'm referring to. What do you think?

“Invite to the Way of your Lord (Islam) with wisdom and fair preaching, and argue with them in a way that is better”. [16:125]
Also refer back to:
http://www.islamicboard.com/basics-i...281-dawah.html
InshAllah i feel people lack knowledge themselves and dont take heed and give it, its also about putting what you know into practice [i.e. practicing what you preach] but your quite right dawah is an important element of Islam..
Yes its a pity, they rant on street corners about their hatred for this west but are these really Islamic manners?...Do something about it, one must gaurd his modesty and spread the word of Islam in a polite calm manner not cotchin' on street corners shouting 'DEATH 2 THE WESTERNERS, LONG LIV BIN LADEN?' LOL...On a level they should do it with wisdom as stated in the ayah not look like they gonna pop cause they tried want to express their hatred for the west in one mouth full...no matter how pasionetly she feel about it...the efforts they put in doing that subhanAllah can be put advising the youth on the sad situation of the Ummah and get them intrested in Islam..Although this sad thing does exist without a doubt one must ALWAYS remember these respresent the MINORITY and do NOT represent Islam ...
If they hate the west then so be it...they made their point now suggest a solution inshAllah...do something about it...Bring back Islam without inciting and stiring hatred inshAllah [God-willing]
Peace x

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Why are we living in the west anywayz? We should all try to leave. We have no business here except Da'wah. And even then it's not perminant. Myself included.
:w:

[x Maz x]

Why me living in the west? cause i was deported here at a young age as I have explained and the docs good to me...Grr the Pakis didnt even get ma birthday right :( Peace x

[MinAhlilHadeeth]

Lol get back to islamabad!

[HeiGou]

Why me living in the west? cause i was deported here at a young age as I have explained and the docs good to me...Grr the Pakis didnt even get ma birthday right :( Peace x

How did you get deported? You can't be old enough for your Father to have supported Bhutto. Your Father was a close friend of Zia?

[x Maz x]

Pakiland wont have me :(...they say me too modernised & brainwashed by the West LOL..
Your Father was a close friend of Zia? Zia wah?..Yes best friends *eyes rolly*..
Twas a joke, chillax
Peace x

[Rou]

I often ask myself that question.



Again where is the evidence they were paying less tax than the Muslims. You assert something that the historical record shows not to be true. The Umayyads sent converts back to the land to farm - and pay taxes as if they were non-Muslims - because they could not afford the loss of revenue. Muslims did not pay much tax at all in the early Islamic state. Dhimmis did.

Protected from whom? The Muslims did a bad job of protecting Dhimmis from foreign conquest (by Muslims for instance), the bedouin, the Turks, the Mongols etc etc.



That is not true either. The Christian population in Greater Syria fell because they were persecuted. They were persecuted because the Muslims felt, with reason, that they sided with the Crusaders. Even Muslim accounts by people like Ibn Jubayr say clearly that Muslim peasants were treated better by the Crusaders than by Muslim rulers. What you say is just not based on facts.



How generous - you don't like foreign conquest of your homeland but it is OK, you can leave at any time. Rather like the Palestinians really.



Do you have any evidence of that not contained in the Quran or Hadith?

Besides it is irrelevant, we are discussing forced conversion, not the origin of the Kaba.



So are we agreed that I am right and the day before the Muslim conquest of Mecca there were no Muslims in Mecca and the day after there were no non-Muslims? Fine.

you continue as if your making a diffrence to the world dont you see wheres the answer to why your doing this?!? i mean apart from the fact that you wish to make islam look bad and just hate muslims? thats racismyou know you seem to dislike people based on where there from eg pakistan and alsohome in on any muslim or islamic action in a negative way broavo!? what a cause...

its called racism but anyhow your choice cant seem to see any other logic behind your questions or acusations but as i said at least do your research what proof apart from some old useless bnp site do you have that dimmis as YOU say were made to pay more tax???

heres some ino or you...

and as for your comments on who protected who lol muslims didnt do a good job uhmm ok!?? muslims controlled the middle east back then and they do today think that slightly shows who is the better defender and who is the attacker...rome remember them!? they were a more powerful force than even america taking the whole of europe in there stride but did you see them in the middle east!? they tried but didnt get very far...

and dont pretend to know about defending for you only know how to attack and not to defend...

as for tax....

research here -

every free male...not the children or the elderly or the women or the poor!?

yeah that sounds like a real heavy tax from greedy people man!
they sound quite intent on stealing innocents money dont they!!!

its called the young men could fight to defend but they did not and were not forced instead were made to contribute to the state where they lived!

yeah your right that sounds sooooo bad!?

they were based on wealth the rich payed more and the poor paid nothing.

do some research before stating false facts...

you say the muslims paid less????

what with there lives!??? in the armies that protected that state and via the zakat that was to be paid per head of the family members !????

what you on about get your facts straight!

you want links!? i i give you a muslim site you will start your drabble so heres wikipedia instead that is basic but preety much accurate..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

and zakat -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zakat


and what you wanted proof on other details aswell!??

Ibn Jubayr? yeah he did say how well they treated muslims he was also however made forcefuly to drink seven cups of alcohol by the leader of that land in the first place that made him set out to return to the holy land to vanquish what he had been forced to do??

indeed he was treated well oh and the peasents thanx for letting me know that...

shall i just do research for you all the time hei gou ??

should i waste any further time of mine on your baseless facts!?? no thanks mate i will give you a better idea why dont you do research yourself beore calling things fake and putting lies in place of them!?

go do your own research and if you cant be bothered then stop talking about that which you know nothing about!? simple..

no ones gonna bother with an answer soon as your just acting on impulse you have no basis whatsoever!?

[HeiGou]

and as for your comments on who protected who lol muslims didnt do a good job uhmm ok!?? muslims controlled the middle east back then and they do today think that slightly shows who is the better defender and who is the attacker...rome remember them!? they were a more powerful force than even america taking the whole of europe in there stride but did you see them in the middle east!? they tried but didnt get very far...

and dont pretend to know about defending for you only know how to attack and not to defend...

You know, I am sure you have a point here, but I am having trouble working out what you are saying. No, Muslims did not do a good job. They let the bedouin run riot all over North Africa with horrendous environmental problems we still see today. They did not keep the Turks or the Mongols out. Under Muslim rule the non-Muslim populations have declined to virtually nothing.

as for tax....

research here -

every free male...not the children or the elderly or the women or the poor!?

Well in theory, but in practice....

yeah that sounds like a real heavy tax from greedy people man!
they sound quite intent on stealing innocents money dont they!!!

You can make sarcastic comments all you like. But the fact is that the Ummayyads forced converts to Islam back on to the land to farm, and pay taxes as if they were Muslims, because they could not afford the loss of revenue.

you say the muslims paid less????

what with there lives!??? in the armies that protected that state and via the zakat that was to be paid per head of the family members !????

We have established they did not do a good job of defending the Dhimmi populations so that "blood tax" wasn't very high was it? Indeed the Abbasids soon replaced the Arabs with Turkish slaves. Yet the free Arabs did not pay more taxes because they were excluded from the Army. Zakat is paid on wealth isn't it? Not per head.

what you on about get your facts straight!

you want links!? i i give you a muslim site you will start your drabble so heres wikipedia instead that is basic but preety much accurate..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jizya

I sometimes think some posters are secret Christians out to make the Muslims look bad. I would not have quoted Wikipedia myself, but as you have done so,

Criticism of jizya has typically focused not only on its specific application to non-Muslims, but also its humiliating nature. It has been described as a demonstration of "constitutional inferiority and humiliation"[19] and criticized for the alleged "consistent, intentionally humiliating character of its application".[20] According to orientalist S.D. Goitein in Evidence on the Muslim Poll Tax from Non-Muslim Sources:

It was of course, evident that the tax represented a discrimination and was intended, according to the Koran's own words, to emphasize the inferior status of the non-believers. It seemed, however, that from the economic point of view, it did not constitute a heavy imposition, since it was on a sliding scale, approximately one, two, and four dinars, and thus adjusted to the financial capacity of the taxpayer. This impression proved to be entirely fallacious, for it did not take into consideration the immense extent of poverty and privation experienced by the masses, and in particular, their persistent lack of cash, which turned the 'season of the tax' into one of horror, dread, and misery.

As noted above (in Islamic Legal commentary and History), payment of the jizya was often accompanied by blows administered to the neck and head. Both the payment and the hitting have been performed in public. [21].

shall i just do research for you all the time hei gou ??

Please, if you do not mind.

[SirZubair]

Why are we living in the west anywayz? We should all try to leave. We have no business here except Da'wah. And even then it's not perminant. Myself included.
:w:

Why are we living in the west anyways?
The Whole World is made for the believers.

We should all try to leave.
Why?

We have no business here except Da'wah
Not true,we have just as much right here as the non-muslims.

[SirZubair]

Some of you need to pay a visit to THIS thread.

Wa'salam.

[Muezzin]

Jazakallah for the link. I've moved all posts discussing the 'problems of the ummah' to, well, the 'problems of the ummah' thread.

This thread's title is very clear - 'Why do you live in the West if you hate it so?' It is not about the disadvantages of living in a Muslim country. Please stay on-topic.